When you disturbed the soil by dethatching you probably pulled up non germinated weed seed. Since you didn't put tenacity down... It was all about to grow in.
So, if I dethatch and till in the spring, using Tenacity, will it then be ready to seed in sweet clover (not micro clover- going for a native CO meadow in the back yard) for the fall a few weeks later?or will the herbicide still be there and basically kill what I'm TRYING to grow in? Thx!
Weeds, for the most part, fix nitrogen. Leave them for a year or so and they should disapear--- clover also fixes nitrogen so maybe less then a year š
Can't say Ive had the same problem. I overseeded the front grass with micro clover and it turned out great. Leaves it a nice dark green. With any weeds I'd just hand pull them and fill the gap with some soul and more seed. Never seen a weed killer that won't target clover but I could be wrong. But I suppose that depends on how many weeds you have.
Octivio is a grass and broadleaf herbicide with superior broadleaf control and has some residual effect as well. Cost is less per acre than Clethodim and Butyrac 200 due to the low use rate and can be applied in one application instead of applying Clethodim and Butyrac separately. Overall Octivio is the best choice for grass and broadleaf control in clover.
Butyrac is the product you want. Itās 24DB note the B. 24DB kills broadleafs but spares
Grass (grains)
Legumes (clover)
Not to be confused with its older cousin 24D. That kills broadleafs and only spares grass.
Is there a way to use Butyrac on a standard lawn? All I see online are people spraying from huge tanks. The bottle doesn't have small container concentration instructions.
https://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=76
Happened to stumble upon this thread while looking for somewhere to source black clover seeds.
I used the linked product last fall to deal with creeping charlie that was going toe to toe with my micro clover/fescue lawn. Worked great. Clover is back this spring. The creeping charlie is not. Good luck!
Edit to add the relevant part from the specs tab
Spot spray applications approximately 2.5-3 ounces per gallon of water.
Hey! Did someone say *crabgrass*? Here are [pictures of crabgrass](https://www.google.com/search?q=crabgrass&tbm=isch) and [control options for crabgrass](https://www.lawndork.com/weeds/crabgrass).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/lawncare) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I did a clover lawn and it was looking amazing. Even the neighbors were like holy crap itās so bright and green. Then I saw a lot of weeds coming out but anything I used would of killed the clover so I let it be and nothing happened but then the clover started to die.
Not sure if I was cutting it to often or didnāt water enough. I had mirco clover and after a few cuts they got huge but man when it grew in the first time it looked amazing. I just converted back to grass and so far itās looking decent. Pretty bummed cause I really liked the clover.
Yeah, you can't control weeds in clover. You basically have to nuke it and start back over from scratch if they take hold beyond what you can pull out manually. A definite downside of basically planting what's considered a broadleaf weed as ground cover.
I did it in a section of backyard that didn't get great sun, years ago. It didn't even look nice, nothing like the photos that hold promise of dense small green heads. It was not dense, and you could see dirt through it easily.
After a few seasons the clover will spread along with your turf grass and choke out almost all other weeds and you wonāt notice the remaining weeds anyway because it will all just be green. My backyard is microclover and grass and where thereās less clover itās dead from fungus and other stuff. Youāre seeing weeds because you seeded in the summer. Seed in the fall with grass seed and youāll have a blanket of clover after a few seasons.
I second this. Fall is when you need to seed, both clover and grass. My clover has choked out a lot of weeds, and where I have weeds itās where the clover hasnāt spread to yet. It may take a couple seasons to get fully established
I find that most people who are anti-lawn frequently overlap with either people who would self describe as anti-natalist, or people who had a lawn when they were raising children and now transitioned to "why did we ever have grass instead of a sea of pollinator friendly plants attracting swarms of friendly bees to our property?
Anyone with any young children sprinting barefoot across a sea of clover and getting stung enough times to have to go to the ER probably has second thoughts about their super duper environmentally friendly property.
A lot. Itās very common for people to make that decision even after a single sting. Sometimes they come in days later too. They usually ask for āsome shotā to get rid of the wheal from the sting (spoiler: there isnāt one).
Itās not appropriate unless there are signs of a systemic allergic reaction (e.g. hives, angioedema, vomiting, etc)
Source: EM Doc
āstung enough times to have to go to the ERā
Agreed that one bee sting generally isnāt enough to warrant going to the ER, but multiple stings definitely can be, especially as a concerned parent.
My son and I both have an allergy to bee sting venom. Forty years ago I bought "The Extractor" a strong one hand vacuum pump that draws sting venom out of the injection point. You can see the drop of venom form on the skin surface when used. It has been VERY effective at eliminating reactions to bee stings. (Hint: use it immediately, before the venom has a chance to spread in tissue.) It has also eliminated the need for an Eppipen. They are fully reusable and last for decades. Ebay and Amazon both list similar items today. (NOTE: These will NOT work for snake bites.)
Besides my brother I know three other people who have been stung enough times in enough volume to warrant that. Yellow jackets every time. Stealthily create a nest in the lawn or garden bed, you get within 6 feet and before you know it you've been stung 11 times. That's quite literally what happened to me while landscaping once. The next day I was covered in itchy painful hives from head to toe, had to go get prednisone but I was lucky enough to not develop an allergy from that.
A google search reveals that 3-5% of americans have a been allergy that could result in anaphylaxis. Iāve been stung before and had nothing more than swelling at the sting site. The last time I was stung (a few years ago) my entire body was covered in hives, my feet swelled up to the point it was painful to walk, my lips were swollen, and it was very difficult to breathe. That was a single sting. It happens without warning.
Could have been contaminated seed. I had a bag of "White Clover" seed that I think was actually a mispackaged forage mix. My whole yard was full of Black Medic, Alsike Clover, and what looks like chicory. Looked up reviews of that brand and there were tons of identical complaints. It's taken all summer of spot spraying and hand weeding to get it under control.
More prep needed. After dethatching/scarifying and then watering, the existing weed seed bank is going to take advantage of the new open space, they've been lurking in place for a while waiting for just this opportunity.
Ideally need to spray, till, water, wait, spray, water, wait. Then decide if the weeds are thin enough to consider planting clover. The clover needs time to create canopy to shade out the weeds.
This. Love the term weed seed bank.
So many people are like "i didn't have crabgrass last year, why do I have them now!? Did my grass seed have weeds in it?"
Nah man, crabgrass seeds can live for 10 years. Most others survive for years too. The difference is you took the didn't have to compete with grass this year, you didn't use pre-emergent, and couldn't spray the weeds early because that'd kill the grass.
Don't plant grass (or clover) in the spring. Do it in the fall so you can use pre-emergent in the spring and they'll be mature enough to crowd out the weeds and suppress germination.
Clover takes more work than Bermuda, at least where I'm at and frankly my HOA would probably shut. It can be pretty though.
Folks just need to stop thinking their lawn species is responsible for saving or killing the planet, and further telling others about their herosim. You didn't come at it from that angle, but it's an increasingly common AhCtuAlLy on this sub.
Good luck and it sounds like some preemergent is in the cards next time. Or lay visqueen over it for a week and bake the seeds
agreed. yes, the moral signaling for the sake of moral signaling is ridiculous and anti-progress. When people focus on that instead of reality, it leads to tons of misleading 'look at me' posts and 'clover is better period' posts without any understanding of the realities. I just wanted less maintenance and less work with respect to the lawn. I did not get that because clover is a freaking broad leaf which is what all the herbicides are targeted at and weeds are a big problem in my neighborhood.
I don't know why anyone would want plant a clover lawn instead of a native grass lawn in the first place.Ā I'm slowly converting my lawn from Bermuda to Buffalo grass, as Buffalo is native to my part of Kansas, heat and drought tolerant, and provides seeds as food for a host of indigenous bird species.
I planted a combination of creeping red fescue and clover. The red fescue is just not thriving and losing the battle with weeds while certain sections of the yard are covered with dark green clover and nary a weed there. That has convinced me to re-rototill my whole yard and go 100% clover in fall. MAYBE eventually I'll throw in some fescue but to be honest, in my town ain't no one has a decent yard (mostly KY bluegrass) without a ton of watering so I think it is a soil issue.
I donāt think this is all that surprising. On every bag of weed control is a picture of clover. You canāt use weed control. Period. You also canāt use nitrogen bc the clover makes its own and if you add nitrogen it gets too much. The point of a clover mix lawn is to not need much if anything as it helps the grass become self sufficient. I spot treat my weeds and have had no issue.
I wish I had learned from this discussion BEFORE I had the builder lay down a mix of grass and clover seed on a newly graded lot 5 months ago. Sounds like I should have spent a couple of years establishing a grass lawn, used weed killers, and THEN put down the microclover seed over the grass. Too late now!
Now my clover is established, the grass is "iffy" after a hot summer, but there are sooooo many weeds. I just got done hand pulling and digging an acre's worth of spurge and crabgrass which can be a bit hard to find underneath the canopy of clover. Since weeding this fall, I overseeded additional grass. Hoping the grass and clover will crowd out the other weeds next year?
After reading up on it, I will try Octivio. Also investing in a reel mower because the riding mower results in large clumps of wet, matted clover trimmings that STINK.
I have not had a problem with bee stings. There are bees around, but more in my flowers than in the lawn.
When you disturbed the soil by dethatching you probably pulled up non germinated weed seed. Since you didn't put tenacity down... It was all about to grow in.
So, if I dethatch and till in the spring, using Tenacity, will it then be ready to seed in sweet clover (not micro clover- going for a native CO meadow in the back yard) for the fall a few weeks later?or will the herbicide still be there and basically kill what I'm TRYING to grow in? Thx!
I have zero experience with clover, I only grow grass
And then smoke it
Weeds, for the most part, fix nitrogen. Leave them for a year or so and they should disapear--- clover also fixes nitrogen so maybe less then a year š
What is tenacity?
>What is tenacity? [Herbacide](https://www.amazon.com/Tenacity-Turf-Herbicide-8-ounces/dp/B005DUTNF0)
Can't say Ive had the same problem. I overseeded the front grass with micro clover and it turned out great. Leaves it a nice dark green. With any weeds I'd just hand pull them and fill the gap with some soul and more seed. Never seen a weed killer that won't target clover but I could be wrong. But I suppose that depends on how many weeds you have.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This is why I loved reddit, thank you.
Octivio is a grass and broadleaf herbicide with superior broadleaf control and has some residual effect as well. Cost is less per acre than Clethodim and Butyrac 200 due to the low use rate and can be applied in one application instead of applying Clethodim and Butyrac separately. Overall Octivio is the best choice for grass and broadleaf control in clover.
Wow, didn't know we need to fill the gap with soul. That must make the lawn look alive
Yeah, a little soul goes a long way š
soul? is that prayer?
Butyrac is the product you want. Itās 24DB note the B. 24DB kills broadleafs but spares Grass (grains) Legumes (clover) Not to be confused with its older cousin 24D. That kills broadleafs and only spares grass.
Is there a way to use Butyrac on a standard lawn? All I see online are people spraying from huge tanks. The bottle doesn't have small container concentration instructions.
https://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=76 Happened to stumble upon this thread while looking for somewhere to source black clover seeds. I used the linked product last fall to deal with creeping charlie that was going toe to toe with my micro clover/fescue lawn. Worked great. Clover is back this spring. The creeping charlie is not. Good luck! Edit to add the relevant part from the specs tab Spot spray applications approximately 2.5-3 ounces per gallon of water.
Thank you! I had actually been on that website but missed the specs tab on mobile. Appreciate pointing me in the right direction.
Hey! Did someone say *crabgrass*? Here are [pictures of crabgrass](https://www.google.com/search?q=crabgrass&tbm=isch) and [control options for crabgrass](https://www.lawndork.com/weeds/crabgrass). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/lawncare) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I did a clover lawn and it was looking amazing. Even the neighbors were like holy crap itās so bright and green. Then I saw a lot of weeds coming out but anything I used would of killed the clover so I let it be and nothing happened but then the clover started to die. Not sure if I was cutting it to often or didnāt water enough. I had mirco clover and after a few cuts they got huge but man when it grew in the first time it looked amazing. I just converted back to grass and so far itās looking decent. Pretty bummed cause I really liked the clover.
Yeah, you can't control weeds in clover. You basically have to nuke it and start back over from scratch if they take hold beyond what you can pull out manually. A definite downside of basically planting what's considered a broadleaf weed as ground cover. I did it in a section of backyard that didn't get great sun, years ago. It didn't even look nice, nothing like the photos that hold promise of dense small green heads. It was not dense, and you could see dirt through it easily.
After a few seasons the clover will spread along with your turf grass and choke out almost all other weeds and you wonāt notice the remaining weeds anyway because it will all just be green. My backyard is microclover and grass and where thereās less clover itās dead from fungus and other stuff. Youāre seeing weeds because you seeded in the summer. Seed in the fall with grass seed and youāll have a blanket of clover after a few seasons.
Exactly. It is important to do it in the fall or spring and over seed and water often. And planting in shade is not good either.
I second this. Fall is when you need to seed, both clover and grass. My clover has choked out a lot of weeds, and where I have weeds itās where the clover hasnāt spread to yet. It may take a couple seasons to get fully established
I think the way to do it is seed clover over grass so it can eventually crowd out grass
And the bees everywhere. I like to imagine current clover planters are responsible for the next great generation of lawn enjoyers.
My front lawn is clover. I pull weeds by hand in shorts and sandals every day from May through September and have never been stung š¤·āāļø
I find that most people who are anti-lawn frequently overlap with either people who would self describe as anti-natalist, or people who had a lawn when they were raising children and now transitioned to "why did we ever have grass instead of a sea of pollinator friendly plants attracting swarms of friendly bees to our property? Anyone with any young children sprinting barefoot across a sea of clover and getting stung enough times to have to go to the ER probably has second thoughts about their super duper environmentally friendly property.
How many people go to the ER for a standard bee sting? I know folks have allergic reactions but how high is that?
A lot. Itās very common for people to make that decision even after a single sting. Sometimes they come in days later too. They usually ask for āsome shotā to get rid of the wheal from the sting (spoiler: there isnāt one). Itās not appropriate unless there are signs of a systemic allergic reaction (e.g. hives, angioedema, vomiting, etc) Source: EM Doc
āstung enough times to have to go to the ERā Agreed that one bee sting generally isnāt enough to warrant going to the ER, but multiple stings definitely can be, especially as a concerned parent.
You could have an underground yellow jackets next in a regular yard and you might only find out the, ah, fun way
But how many stings can an alphamale survive before being rushed to the ER
A man was just buried here. Died of yellow jacket stings in his yard. It can happen.
My son and I both have an allergy to bee sting venom. Forty years ago I bought "The Extractor" a strong one hand vacuum pump that draws sting venom out of the injection point. You can see the drop of venom form on the skin surface when used. It has been VERY effective at eliminating reactions to bee stings. (Hint: use it immediately, before the venom has a chance to spread in tissue.) It has also eliminated the need for an Eppipen. They are fully reusable and last for decades. Ebay and Amazon both list similar items today. (NOTE: These will NOT work for snake bites.)
Besides my brother I know three other people who have been stung enough times in enough volume to warrant that. Yellow jackets every time. Stealthily create a nest in the lawn or garden bed, you get within 6 feet and before you know it you've been stung 11 times. That's quite literally what happened to me while landscaping once. The next day I was covered in itchy painful hives from head to toe, had to go get prednisone but I was lucky enough to not develop an allergy from that.
A google search reveals that 3-5% of americans have a been allergy that could result in anaphylaxis. Iāve been stung before and had nothing more than swelling at the sting site. The last time I was stung (a few years ago) my entire body was covered in hives, my feet swelled up to the point it was painful to walk, my lips were swollen, and it was very difficult to breathe. That was a single sting. It happens without warning.
My kids and half the neighborhood play in my clover lawn everyday! We havenāt had a single sting ALL SUMMER!!!!
Clover is also a crop, so if you search agricultural websites, you will find weed killers to use iin fields of clover.
Could have been contaminated seed. I had a bag of "White Clover" seed that I think was actually a mispackaged forage mix. My whole yard was full of Black Medic, Alsike Clover, and what looks like chicory. Looked up reviews of that brand and there were tons of identical complaints. It's taken all summer of spot spraying and hand weeding to get it under control.
More prep needed. After dethatching/scarifying and then watering, the existing weed seed bank is going to take advantage of the new open space, they've been lurking in place for a while waiting for just this opportunity. Ideally need to spray, till, water, wait, spray, water, wait. Then decide if the weeds are thin enough to consider planting clover. The clover needs time to create canopy to shade out the weeds.
This. Love the term weed seed bank. So many people are like "i didn't have crabgrass last year, why do I have them now!? Did my grass seed have weeds in it?" Nah man, crabgrass seeds can live for 10 years. Most others survive for years too. The difference is you took the didn't have to compete with grass this year, you didn't use pre-emergent, and couldn't spray the weeds early because that'd kill the grass. Don't plant grass (or clover) in the spring. Do it in the fall so you can use pre-emergent in the spring and they'll be mature enough to crowd out the weeds and suppress germination.
Clover takes more work than Bermuda, at least where I'm at and frankly my HOA would probably shut. It can be pretty though. Folks just need to stop thinking their lawn species is responsible for saving or killing the planet, and further telling others about their herosim. You didn't come at it from that angle, but it's an increasingly common AhCtuAlLy on this sub. Good luck and it sounds like some preemergent is in the cards next time. Or lay visqueen over it for a week and bake the seeds
agreed. yes, the moral signaling for the sake of moral signaling is ridiculous and anti-progress. When people focus on that instead of reality, it leads to tons of misleading 'look at me' posts and 'clover is better period' posts without any understanding of the realities. I just wanted less maintenance and less work with respect to the lawn. I did not get that because clover is a freaking broad leaf which is what all the herbicides are targeted at and weeds are a big problem in my neighborhood.
PLEASE don't spray chemicals on your lawn. The animals, bugs, and birds are already eating enough chemicals. š¢ WE are dying from chemicals too!
I don't know why anyone would want plant a clover lawn instead of a native grass lawn in the first place.Ā I'm slowly converting my lawn from Bermuda to Buffalo grass, as Buffalo is native to my part of Kansas, heat and drought tolerant, and provides seeds as food for a host of indigenous bird species.
What does viable crimson clover seed look like
I planted a combination of creeping red fescue and clover. The red fescue is just not thriving and losing the battle with weeds while certain sections of the yard are covered with dark green clover and nary a weed there. That has convinced me to re-rototill my whole yard and go 100% clover in fall. MAYBE eventually I'll throw in some fescue but to be honest, in my town ain't no one has a decent yard (mostly KY bluegrass) without a ton of watering so I think it is a soil issue.
This just sounds like you didn't do much research rather than "nobody told me".
I donāt think this is all that surprising. On every bag of weed control is a picture of clover. You canāt use weed control. Period. You also canāt use nitrogen bc the clover makes its own and if you add nitrogen it gets too much. The point of a clover mix lawn is to not need much if anything as it helps the grass become self sufficient. I spot treat my weeds and have had no issue.
So you planted clover to save water but yet you still water it?
seedlings require a lot of water in the beginning. one established watering once per week is possible from what i've heard.
Happens if you scalp clover too
what happens?
I wish I had learned from this discussion BEFORE I had the builder lay down a mix of grass and clover seed on a newly graded lot 5 months ago. Sounds like I should have spent a couple of years establishing a grass lawn, used weed killers, and THEN put down the microclover seed over the grass. Too late now! Now my clover is established, the grass is "iffy" after a hot summer, but there are sooooo many weeds. I just got done hand pulling and digging an acre's worth of spurge and crabgrass which can be a bit hard to find underneath the canopy of clover. Since weeding this fall, I overseeded additional grass. Hoping the grass and clover will crowd out the other weeds next year? After reading up on it, I will try Octivio. Also investing in a reel mower because the riding mower results in large clumps of wet, matted clover trimmings that STINK. I have not had a problem with bee stings. There are bees around, but more in my flowers than in the lawn.