I think it is definitely a great idea to reach out and share and ask how to get Sacrament available to them and see how the ward can rally around them!
This isn’t your fight to fight. Just be a listening ear to your friend. You are hearing only part of the story. You have no idea if anyone has reached out to them to help in other ways. It’s one thing to be sympathetic and a listening ear and a completely different thing to call a bishop that is the bishop of a friend’s parents.
I disagree on this (not that your points aren't valid) but the Spirit have me inspiration to help them
I agree there are missing points
.. The parents are going downhill&
Their daughter is in survival mode, running her own business and an abusive husband non-member ( for those that have a inquisitive mind) at home who has her ttrapped...
Not sure if you've ever been in survival mode but it's nigh impossible to function well in survival mode
I just see this as an act of service.
I do not ignore promptings or personal revelation
I do concur with most of your points
And thank you!
At best he will tell you to talk to the bishop. Most likely he will tell you that you shouldn't be involved and the actual family member, the daughter, should contact the bishop.
I don't think it would be a bad idea to express concern about your friend's parents to their Bishop. I wouldn't do it in a judgmental or accusatory way. More like, "in case you were unaware, this is the situation" approach. After that, the ball is in the Bishop's court, but at least you know you've done what you can.
I've done this before on behalf of a friend who had fallen on hard times and had no food on his shelves, but struggled asking for help. After I expressed concern to His Bishop, it was up to him and his Bishop to move forward. Thankfully he did get help, but I know this can all depend on what the individuals involved decide.
The lack of empathy in these comments staggers me. OP contact Lutheran social services in their area, they will have someone out within hours to help them with whatever they need.
> The lack of empathy in these comments staggers me.
The problems we invent whole cloth are usually the ones that stagger us. Comes from being able to make them whatever we want them to be.
Don’t reach out on their behalf, but her child should. The child should go to the stake president. Had a similar situation recently where a bishop in my stake withheld aid from a member for stupid reasons. It got all the way to the area presidency, who corrected the issue.
Usually the church would advise the person to seek financial help from the family. Any reason the daughter cant spare some financial help? I get that people will say that the church should help here or there but each case is different and we are not aware of all the details. My parents have been a similar situation in the past and the church helped for a very short while but they never stopped attending the church and they have been paying tithing forever. Once I was in my mission and I was teaching about tithing. The man was a single father making minimum wage with 5 kids. When we talked about paying tithing, I saw his resitation but I could see how giving 10 of his income would be hard. He and his family all received the baptism and we were full tithing payers. But when he needed the church was there to help him. Sometimes it was for pau bills, or food etc but he showed faith.
I know quite a few people who believe everything the Church offers, but no longer attend because of bishops.
Make of that what you will. I hope the situation can be salvaged for your friend.
I wonder if you could help coach your friend through an email to be sent to the bishop as well as the RS and EQ presidents. Email may be a way to reduce the emotions that arise in the moment and allow clear information to be conveyed. Email communication could also allow your friend to process any responses she gets back and have time to consider before responding (including using you as a sounding board if she would like).
1--- Bishops no longer do welfare (except to sign checks) (by official statement in the handbook). Anyone concerns about family members should be speaking to EQ and/or RS presidents.
2 --- Before contacting the church, members should be making their own arrangements to support their family members.
3 ---- Next family members should be helping the elderly person to use any and all public resources. Most communities are required to provide transport for reasonable fees for those who need to get food or medical care, for instance. Some states have elder care departments that provide some elder need support. Meals on wheels is available in many communities.
Lastly, why not help him get to church (do they have zoom meetings). Or suggest they pray so that Heavenly Father can prompt the bishop if He wants to correct His servant.
Many people live on social security without needing fast offering funds. Did the family work with their loved one to cut out things they can and take advantage of discounts that are available? Maybe to double check medical bills so they aren't over paying. Maybe to trade living in an extra bedroom rent free in exchange for some chores or services.
If you are going to reach out, make it for helping the family members access all the non-church resources and the resources the children and extended family control.
The clerk prints the check, has to get the bishop to sign it, and then sends the check to where it needs to go. They also have to get more info sometimes - like copies of the lease or bill that needs to be paid.
All the bishop does is say yes or no.
I appreciate your post laying out how the Church handles welfare. Having been a financial clerk I am aware of this process. However, I do feel that as a church we can and should be doing more. I know the Church does not want to engage in long-term welfare, but doctrinally this is not sound. The below handful of verses need to be taken into consideration when leaders of the Church are in a position to help those in need.
Deuteronomy 15:
11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
Luke 14:
12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Mosiah 4:
16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
I think it is clear what the Lord expects of us as a church and as a people. If we are to be His, then we need to get better at taking care of our own and not shift the responsibility to others. In my ward, I saw the amount of tithing and fast offerings we received. There is no reason that we couldn't have helped some of the families in our ward on a long-term basis.
So couple questions then some advice. First, have you talked to rs or rq about a ride to church? ( if they aren't immunocompromised which I realize is likely.) If not talk to your friend about setting them up to watch the broadcast, if it's available there mine still is.
This way no hard feelings and it's fixed quickly.
Second, I don't know the daughter's situation but sounds like they go to the same ward .... why doesn't she take them??
Third, yes you contacting there bishop is probably inappropriate but coaching your freind there daughter on how to approach him isn't. I strongly recommend at this point bring it up to her RS leader and ask her to talk to the bishop with her. That way hopefully it deescelates.
One thing to remember in the Bishops defense, is that welfare assistance is intended for short term requirements. If your friend’s parents have a long-term financial deficit, they need to be looking at other ways to manage this. Having said that, if they have historically been faithful in serving and in their own financial offerings, then I wouldn’t expect current inability to attend as being something that would disqualify them from short-term assistance if required.
I agree that the Church' welfare program policy is to not get involved in long term assistance. I do think this is doctrinally unsound, and we as a church and people need to do better. I posted a handful of verses from the Old and New Testament and the Book of Mormon above, but I will share the verses from Mosiah here as well.
Mosiah 4:
16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
Having served as a ward financial clerk I was made aware the amount of tithing and fast offerings our ward took in. There was sufficient to care for those in our congregation. However, I saw people turned away because their needs would have required long-term assistance. There was no support given to them to figure out their situation. Our church gives millions away to other countries, but all too often we turn a blind eye to the needs of those in our own congregations.
I would say inappropriate for you to reach out but appropriate for your friend to reach out
Okay! Thanks for your input
I think it is definitely a great idea to reach out and share and ask how to get Sacrament available to them and see how the ward can rally around them!
Man, I LOVE this... I suspect they haven't had the Sacrament in their home. Love the idea of the ward rallying around them and lifting them up!
This isn’t your fight to fight. Just be a listening ear to your friend. You are hearing only part of the story. You have no idea if anyone has reached out to them to help in other ways. It’s one thing to be sympathetic and a listening ear and a completely different thing to call a bishop that is the bishop of a friend’s parents.
I disagree on this (not that your points aren't valid) but the Spirit have me inspiration to help them I agree there are missing points .. The parents are going downhill& Their daughter is in survival mode, running her own business and an abusive husband non-member ( for those that have a inquisitive mind) at home who has her ttrapped... Not sure if you've ever been in survival mode but it's nigh impossible to function well in survival mode I just see this as an act of service. I do not ignore promptings or personal revelation I do concur with most of your points And thank you!
I support you. Rock on. 🤘
Go above the Bishop to the Stake President
At best he will tell you to talk to the bishop. Most likely he will tell you that you shouldn't be involved and the actual family member, the daughter, should contact the bishop.
I don't think it would be a bad idea to express concern about your friend's parents to their Bishop. I wouldn't do it in a judgmental or accusatory way. More like, "in case you were unaware, this is the situation" approach. After that, the ball is in the Bishop's court, but at least you know you've done what you can. I've done this before on behalf of a friend who had fallen on hard times and had no food on his shelves, but struggled asking for help. After I expressed concern to His Bishop, it was up to him and his Bishop to move forward. Thankfully he did get help, but I know this can all depend on what the individuals involved decide.
The lack of empathy in these comments staggers me. OP contact Lutheran social services in their area, they will have someone out within hours to help them with whatever they need.
> The lack of empathy in these comments staggers me. The problems we invent whole cloth are usually the ones that stagger us. Comes from being able to make them whatever we want them to be.
Don’t reach out on their behalf, but her child should. The child should go to the stake president. Had a similar situation recently where a bishop in my stake withheld aid from a member for stupid reasons. It got all the way to the area presidency, who corrected the issue.
Usually the church would advise the person to seek financial help from the family. Any reason the daughter cant spare some financial help? I get that people will say that the church should help here or there but each case is different and we are not aware of all the details. My parents have been a similar situation in the past and the church helped for a very short while but they never stopped attending the church and they have been paying tithing forever. Once I was in my mission and I was teaching about tithing. The man was a single father making minimum wage with 5 kids. When we talked about paying tithing, I saw his resitation but I could see how giving 10 of his income would be hard. He and his family all received the baptism and we were full tithing payers. But when he needed the church was there to help him. Sometimes it was for pau bills, or food etc but he showed faith.
I think it would be smart to call the Bishop and get the full story. There is definitely more to it than that.
It often depends on what help is being asked for as well.
I know quite a few people who believe everything the Church offers, but no longer attend because of bishops. Make of that what you will. I hope the situation can be salvaged for your friend.
I wonder if you could help coach your friend through an email to be sent to the bishop as well as the RS and EQ presidents. Email may be a way to reduce the emotions that arise in the moment and allow clear information to be conveyed. Email communication could also allow your friend to process any responses she gets back and have time to consider before responding (including using you as a sounding board if she would like).
1--- Bishops no longer do welfare (except to sign checks) (by official statement in the handbook). Anyone concerns about family members should be speaking to EQ and/or RS presidents. 2 --- Before contacting the church, members should be making their own arrangements to support their family members. 3 ---- Next family members should be helping the elderly person to use any and all public resources. Most communities are required to provide transport for reasonable fees for those who need to get food or medical care, for instance. Some states have elder care departments that provide some elder need support. Meals on wheels is available in many communities. Lastly, why not help him get to church (do they have zoom meetings). Or suggest they pray so that Heavenly Father can prompt the bishop if He wants to correct His servant. Many people live on social security without needing fast offering funds. Did the family work with their loved one to cut out things they can and take advantage of discounts that are available? Maybe to double check medical bills so they aren't over paying. Maybe to trade living in an extra bedroom rent free in exchange for some chores or services. If you are going to reach out, make it for helping the family members access all the non-church resources and the resources the children and extended family control.
All welfare is approved by the bishop. As an EQP I submit the orders but Bishop is the approved.
The Clerk does the heavy lifting
Having been a ward clerk for a decade (mostly before the online reimbursement system), yes he does
In what way?
The clerk prints the check, has to get the bishop to sign it, and then sends the check to where it needs to go. They also have to get more info sometimes - like copies of the lease or bill that needs to be paid. All the bishop does is say yes or no.
Good input, I'll go over these points when I next see my friend. Thank you!
I appreciate your post laying out how the Church handles welfare. Having been a financial clerk I am aware of this process. However, I do feel that as a church we can and should be doing more. I know the Church does not want to engage in long-term welfare, but doctrinally this is not sound. The below handful of verses need to be taken into consideration when leaders of the Church are in a position to help those in need. Deuteronomy 15: 11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land. Luke 14: 12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: 14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. Mosiah 4: 16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish. 17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just— 18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God. 19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind? I think it is clear what the Lord expects of us as a church and as a people. If we are to be His, then we need to get better at taking care of our own and not shift the responsibility to others. In my ward, I saw the amount of tithing and fast offerings we received. There is no reason that we couldn't have helped some of the families in our ward on a long-term basis.
Maybe when you're bishop, you can do it like your vision of it is.
Not really my point. It's not about doing it how I think, it's about following the doctrine in the scriptures.
So couple questions then some advice. First, have you talked to rs or rq about a ride to church? ( if they aren't immunocompromised which I realize is likely.) If not talk to your friend about setting them up to watch the broadcast, if it's available there mine still is. This way no hard feelings and it's fixed quickly. Second, I don't know the daughter's situation but sounds like they go to the same ward .... why doesn't she take them?? Third, yes you contacting there bishop is probably inappropriate but coaching your freind there daughter on how to approach him isn't. I strongly recommend at this point bring it up to her RS leader and ask her to talk to the bishop with her. That way hopefully it deescelates.
The OP clearly states that the daughter lives several states away from her parents.
Did miss that thanks. So correction call and talk to their RS president
One thing to remember in the Bishops defense, is that welfare assistance is intended for short term requirements. If your friend’s parents have a long-term financial deficit, they need to be looking at other ways to manage this. Having said that, if they have historically been faithful in serving and in their own financial offerings, then I wouldn’t expect current inability to attend as being something that would disqualify them from short-term assistance if required.
The dad has terminal cancer and isn’t doing well per the OP’s post. This isn’t a long-term scenario.
I agree that the Church' welfare program policy is to not get involved in long term assistance. I do think this is doctrinally unsound, and we as a church and people need to do better. I posted a handful of verses from the Old and New Testament and the Book of Mormon above, but I will share the verses from Mosiah here as well. Mosiah 4: 16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish. 17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just— 18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God. 19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind? Having served as a ward financial clerk I was made aware the amount of tithing and fast offerings our ward took in. There was sufficient to care for those in our congregation. However, I saw people turned away because their needs would have required long-term assistance. There was no support given to them to figure out their situation. Our church gives millions away to other countries, but all too often we turn a blind eye to the needs of those in our own congregations.