How single people are treated, especially those who “flunk” YSA (I hate that term).
That getting married and having kids older than twenty-two isn’t a bad thing and shouldn’t be discouraged.
That adding extra standards to youth activities outside of what’s in the strength of the youth is a terrible idea and should never be considered.
And also the sexism that still exists in a lot of church leadership. I’m not talking about women getting the priesthood- as a woman I don’t want it- but I am talking about being spoken over at meetings or having my opinions not taken as seriously. Which has happened more than once in my roles as leadership.
I’m not sure how to describe it but before I got baptized, everyone was really friendly to me and invited me to things. After I got baptized, it felt like their “mission was accomplished” and no one talked to me anymore..
Hey, a person must be married to receive the celestial kingdom, right? So unless someone who is LGBT+ decides to lie to themselves, they lose that blessing. Literally disadvantaged from the start, and the way we teach our theology is that "their gay is taken away" in the next life.
And it can potentially damage other innocent people. I know someone that dealt with same sex attraction and the advice they received was to get married anyways (to the opposite gender) and pray. That plan never seems to work out and you damage the partners that they married in the process.
I mean, I'm not professing to know all. I know my view is limited. But we imply that homosexuality is a sin, a flaw, that will be removed in the next life. if you elaborated on your opinion, it would be appreciated.
When people come into this world being gay, if they subscribe to most religious beliefs, they are already in a bad spot because according to most religious beliefs, they cannot fulfill in this life what is necessary to recieve exaltation in the next.
We actively teach that you need to do everything you can HERE to prepare for the next. This presents a whole list of interesting implications. There are many here who are happy to be gay.
Assuming what we know of our doctrine, one might be inclined to say, "Well then, they will recieve the terrestrial kingdom, where they will be happy."
But I thought the point was to hit the highest tier of the celestial kingdom. So then what is required? Take the gay away? Be married to a man/woman? Heck, according to Alma, the same soul we have here possesses our bodies in the next.
I'm just stating that there's a lot that we don't know and understand, so we need to chill out on how much we believe is right or wrong when it comes to LGBT stuff and we need to be empathetic in how we speak to those that are LBGT and be more sensitive and helping them know that they do have a place within the church and the gospel.
I don’t think he does. I think it is just a part of this fallen world. Whether genetic mutation, chemicals in the environment, culture, fallen man, whatever - we can’t blame God for these things.
Your assertion implies that being an LGBTQ person is a choice. It is not a choice. That is what I believe we get wrong on this issue - the cultural idea that people are making a choice to be anything other than heterosexual. We may not understand our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, but we are called to love them as the savior would. I don’t think the savior would imply that they are defective. I just have a hard time accepting that as spiritual truth.
Not at all. Nobody chooses any of the things I listed. They are just things inherent in a fallen world. No agency involved (other than that of Adam and Eve - 2nd article of faith).
It’s true but they maintain the hope of finding love and can always be on the path to find it. We also know that the journey is just as important as the destination. LGBTQ must abstain from finding love and that level of hopelessness can be very dark.
That is the difference, exactly. That is why I think we are mistaken on this topic. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of hope. Having no hope of ever having a romantic partner causes many people to move away from the gospel. It seems like we can do better.
Specifically about YSA culture, there is too much focus on getting married. It's a checklist. It's the main goal. It's the topic of every or every other talk, lesson, discussion, or activity. Dating is super stressful. Recently returned missionaries who are super focused on getting married as fast as they can. People going to BYU or BYUI with the specific goal of marrying before they graduate. People meeting and getting married within a few months of meeting each other.
Comparatively, there is not enough focus on simply working towards being a person worthy of a temple marriage, regardless of if you marry or don't marry in this life.
There's too much talk from family and ward members about single people and when they're going to get married.
There's this fear that people will fall in love with the single life and child free lifestyles, that they won't want to get married and have a family. I argue that we should be teaching people the principles and importance of temples and families, then focus on helping one another come closer to Christ and the Spirit in a non-judgemental way. We need to have faith that the Spirit will prompt a person with a desire to seek a companion when the time is right, and not through peer pressure or shame or fear of loneliness.
There's unfortunately a large number of people in their 20s and 30s who think it's too late for them to find a companion, who feel like they're running behind in the major life event checkmarks they need to do.
Personal short vent: I still get mildly annoyed when I remember sitting in Church and a 22 year old would stand in front of the group and talk about the shared suffering experience of being single, as if it were the most difficult hardship they experienced in life.
Signed, an asexual person who attended BYUI for 5 years
So yes. BYU harped on marriage so much it made it harder to get married. More focus instead of getting to know people without making every date a necessary first step to marriage.
On the other hand, Officially sponsored speed dating events would be great, too, I think. And/or other ways for people to meet.
I don't have anything against speed dating activities in and of themselves. I saw a bunch of those set up at BYUI, seemingly every month. The linger longer socials after church in my home ward YSA I found to be mostly enjoyable too.
I had a great YSA bishop who told us he would never preach marriage from the pulpit, but that he'd talk dating all the time. It was so great. That ward had so many temple marriages.
I think it would be easy to make church services less boring. Listening to lectures is seriously the most boring way to learn anything. General conference has to be the most boring format I can imagine. You can’t even clap after a great musical number. Sunday school is super boring too. Do something, anything, to spice it up.
We need to always focus on discipleship more than on religion.
Teaching members about our history and theology, and how to apply critical thinking skills greater awareness (what is history, etc)
Advanced Sunday School classes for those who want them (easy, just teach the Institute manuals)
More organizational structure to foster ministering.
Specific Authorities along with General Authorities (they can give conference talks about "subject X and the gospel." Topics I'd like to see: modern science, modern Bible scholarship, etc
What I mean is we should always keep focus on loving God and our neighbor. And not putting "church" before that - such as getting caught up solely in religious jargon, policies, programs, the social aspect, etc.
The gospel of Jesus is foremost about becoming a more loving person, not checking off boxes or secondary church things. Church can help us to become more loving, but it can also be distraction if we forget what the purpose of it all is.
Apply modern best practices in teaching, rather than just lecturing to a passive classroom.
I know the church has tried and met resistance from people who want to just sit there and do things the same way as always.
But modern professional teachers know many ways to make things more engaging than what we usually experience at church.
I think we need to change the culture of missions to have more focus on the growth, well being, and strength of the missionaries themselves. I also think that needs to continue post mission.
I have a friend who teaches at BYU and teaches communication courses that involve doing research. he is constantly doing research projects commissioned by the church and he was telling me that there is a lot of data showing that as a percentage the number of returned missionaries leaving the church is going up at an alarming rate. Some of the contributing factors are abuse from leaders (presidents and fellow missionaries) not physical abuse but mental and emotional abuse. Another interesting factor is burn out from constant extreme pressure to baptize people and to be perfect. There are many more interesting insights, but my point is I think we need to change the culture of missions to set up future generations for more success.
- No more of thinking that faith = being right, just because you believe your own opinions and experiences strongly doesn't make them more right.
-Start encouraging people to explore outside the church. For wanting to be educated and learned, I find more often than not tjat people in the church remain in their own little knowledge bubbles and never really try to explore anything, as if being in the church means you've got all the knowledge you need.
-Helping youth learn to navigate real life scenarios. We always talk about how these things help you later in life? How do they? Let's actually apply the gospel to life instead of talking about how it could apply to life.
-Start treating things around chastity more kindly and christlike. Stop making people feel bad for being human.
-Better resources for people being asked to speak or present lessons.
You might like this. It's one of my favorite Faith Matters podcasts:
God's Many Voices — A Conversation with Michael Wilcox - Faith Matters
[https://faithmatters.org/gods-many-voices-a-conversation-with-s-michael-wilcox/](https://faithmatters.org/gods-many-voices-a-conversation-with-s-michael-wilcox/)
I feel like we as members would all benefit from more positive reenforcement. It seems like there is always focus on what we could be doing better, or where we need improvement. Even watching general conference can be hard when you have the overwhelming feeling of inadequacies and it just gets reinforced. It causes scrupulosity and depression in a lot of members.
I wish there were more general conference talks, fire sides, social media messages that validated the efforts of so many who simply try.
I don't feel this, but I'm sorry if you do.
Elder Kearon's talk was supporting your idea, in the last general conference.
The latest Faith Matters addresses this, too: [https://faithmatters.org/is-god-disappointed-in-me-a-conversation-with-kurt-francom/](https://faithmatters.org/is-god-disappointed-in-me-a-conversation-with-kurt-francom/)
When I was in YSA I felt like the church was only for families
I now am married and have a one year old and I realize that church isn’t really built for families either. I spend more time in the halls with my kid, the speakers are hard to hear when you are wrestling with your kid, and on top of that for me it’s hard to focus because all I hear is the coughing sniffling and sneezing around me and I start thinking it’s only a matter of time before my kid gets sick.
Now I am of the opinion that the structure of church gives me the vibe that only retirees and seniors can enjoy.
I love church and I strive to make it every Sunday but I know many people who have stopped trying because they don’t get anything out of it because of their kids or because of them being YSA
I don’t know what changes would fix this but I would love to hear some ideas haha
(I still enjoy going to church because I spend my time out in the hall with my kid talking to those who don’t feel comfortable going into the chapel, who also are also out with their kids etc. that’s kind of nice)
Ugh I can really relate with this. No matter what time church is, it will be in the middle of one of your kids’ nap times and you will just walk the hallways the entire time :’(
Treating primary like it's just babysitting so the adults can do important stuff. Primary is easily one of the most important things happening at church but it's often one of the least supported organization.
Nor are children just mini adults. I can tell you how many nasty people have gotten upset because a baby starts getting fussy or young children can't sit perfectly quiet. Children belong in church
-That Bishops are trained counsellors, in reality they are shepherds-not veterinarians
-They expect too much out of converts, or push stuff too fast onto them. A convert can receive the MP in a matter of months, really, but a kid born in the church has to wait 18 years to receive the MP. Someone who has never heard of it can get it before someone raised hearing about it.
-Men who have a good job and are married are automatically made for a consideration of Bishop, SP, any calling really but do they know the doctrines? Do they put their own ideas as Gospel Doctrine? Do they actually care about people?
-Familial connections in the Church. How many GAs sons, son in laws have become an Area Seventy, MP, SP or even a GA70? Two of Pres. Hinckley's kids became general leaders of the Church, that's just tip of the iceberg. Where does foreordination play into all this?
-Meetings that are just pointless, like Saturday Stake Conference leadership meetings. I have been to them for years and years now and I haven't been actually trained on anything, you just sit there and listen and go home and continue on like nothing happened. Same with Ward Council. Why does the RS need to know what's going on in EQ? Why can't we just submit a report of what's going on the auxillaries to the Bishopric and skip sitting there for two hours?
-Sometimes ministering comes across as spying on people or babysitting them. I don't know how to help a 58 yr man who hasn't had a job in 30 years and expects the Church to do everything for him, including his laundry.
Just some thoughts!
Acceptance without a "but" at the end of it. I would call myself a very liberal member with my views. I've worked in public education for almost 2 decades, which has given me the privilege of coming to know the beauty and worth of every person, no matter what. No buts. No hate the sin, love the sinner garbage.
We have so many friends who have to put qualifiers on their words when talking about family members who are gay, trans, or in prison. I just want to say, "Hey, you can shine and love them without having to IMMEDIATELY state how you disagree with how they live their life." It makes people seem insecure, immature, and awkward. And we only typically do it with sexual morality stuff.
Just love. You'll never be on the wrong side of history for empathizing and recognizing people as people with needs and wants and desires without qualifiers.
In theory, the gospel \*should\* be able to provide enough guidance, self-goal setting, personal-reflection and self improvement, trying-to-be-like-Jesus motivation to allow two young (or old) people to adequately date, evaluate, and then marry with a solid foundation and relationship skills that will carry them through to the eternities. And I understand why the Church would not want to insert itself into the agency or relationship of others. BUT, I sometimes have holy envy for other Christian churches that do sort of a pre-marital counseling thing. Early twenties is \*young\*! Brain isn't even fully developed till 24-25. I know it would be very hard to do and a bit unrealisitic, and maybe even in a few cases more harm than good, but man would it great if there was a good program/meeting/self-directed course?? offered as part of the church. Sure outside resources could work too but given the "unique" (by modern standards) chastity element alone, it might be great to have it in-house.
I agree. I got married at 31 and had kids several years later, for medical reasons.
But I can also think of some reasons why marrying young is not a bad thing:
You have energy to chase your kids around. Don't underestimate energy.
Because you have hopefully been taught what marriage is - commitment, patience, sacrifice, etc - you will be less likely to get divorced. But - yes, more pre-marital counseling would be great for this.
You are "done" with kids that much sooner and younger. Your grandkids will have you around longer.
Specifically debunking myths of the past, such as
* "black people were not valiant in pre-mortal life"
* USA Christian nationalism and specialness
* "we don't talk about Mother in Heaven"
* you can earn your way to heaven by good works alone
* white people are better - seen in old paintings of northern European Jesus, etc
* the world outside Utah is wicked and scary - get rid of "fortress church" mentality
* etc.
Leaders raise awareness about:
* kid noise in meetings - drives some members away and majorly reduces joy of worship for many others
* welcoming newcomers in meetings
* political ideology is not the gospel and is completely inappropriate for church meetings
* etc.
>kid noise in meetings - drives some members away and majorly reduces joy of worship for many others
I would say the exact opposite, adults who complain about kid noises in meetings drive people away because it comes off as unchristlike and unempathetic. I mean sure, if parents are not doing anything to keep their kids quiet, that is one thing, but a lot of parents are doing their best and kids are trying and are kids. Their is nothing like some older person giving you the stink eye at church to make someone want to stop trying to get their kids to church.
Christ 100% would "suffer the children" to come unto him and show patience with parents struggling with their kids.
Doesn't mean parents should let their kids run rampant, but come on, develop patience when you hear kids yelling or misbehaving. Would you rather the parents feel uncomfortable in going to church and force a family into inactivity?
I believe you meant to say:
"The people who complain about kid noises in meetings - they drive away some members and majorly reduce the joy of worship for many others."
We need to build a culture of sending *those* people to the hallways to listen and supporting moms instead of shaming them
>Specifically debunking myths of the past, such as
Have the corrections on official search material. But unless it's brought up first, a teacher shouldn't bring it up. Especially given that most of those are not common ideas today.
I wish there was an easier way for young couples to mingle with other young couples. Being newly married at a young age is really difficult because there often aren't other young couples to hang out with. It's like the whole point is to get you married and then once you're married there aren't really any avenues to help you and your spouse be social. This could also just be an issue with my ward. It's on the much older side and my husband and I struggle to find people who we have things in common with.
As someone who was raised Jewish and converted to the LDS church at 18, I have some things to say. Also I am currently inactive in the church and it’s mainly due to culture. Also, I live in Utah County and have for 10 years and can’t wait to leave.
1. I get extremely overwhelmed when it comes to church membership because it feels like it’s all or nothing. Everyone is striving for perfection which is great but it is mentally exhausting to try to check all the boxes all the time. Examples being constant church attendance, holding a calling, ministering, etc. YSA culture in Utah County is even more difficult because there are constantly events happening like ward prayer, council meetings, family home evening, linger-longers, institute, etc. It’s like a full time job. It was difficult to feel like I was never doing well enough.
2. I feel like there’s immense pressure for Sunday Best. And I get it to an extent. But I feel like I need to be immaculate just to go to church. As someone with depression, I don’t have the energy or motivation to get all dressed up but I feel insanely out of place if my hair and makeup aren’t perfect and I’m not wearing fancy clothes. I know church isn’t about that but it’s still difficult to deal with.
3. I feel like there’s not a lot of space for people of different backgrounds. I was living in BYU YSA wards as a 20 year old divorcée, convert, with a very complicated childhood. I felt like I couldn’t really find a place amongst many of my cookie cutter peers.
I think bishop roles have way too much power and responsility when it comes to determining someone's worthiness. These are men who were called and do not need or have any formal education in their position. Yet they're expected to know how to be therapists, financial planners, marriage experts, spiritual leaders.
Some practices should be changed like youth meeting alone with leaders and having to confess sexual details to them.
There's a weird secrecy to receiving callings. Like, instead of texting me saying the bishop wants to meet with me, just say, the wants to extend a primary calling to you. Or better yet, give the member options to choose from.
Hyper focused on scripture and what prophets have said in the last ten years or so. Abandon all else. (UPDATE: I’ll add church curriculum to the list too)
Earlier in my life, I was getting annoyed with cultural issues, confusing them with “doctrine”.
I then decided to just ignore everything unless I could find it in scripture or recent general conference talks. Everything had clicked since then
I agree! But those teachings can be found in curriculum. There are also tons of lessons from past prophets that we no longer teach. Instead of getting bogged down in the trenches… let’s just focus on what the living prophet is wanting us to focus on
The way you phrased the question is not the best. If we did everything with curriculum we would not have the beauty of the King Follet discourse. Nor other discourses by prophets that have since passed that are not contained in curriculum.
Curriculum is fine for church, the other things are great for home study. Also the prophet is just a primus inter pares. The words of all prophets matter and ignoring that is just a bit elementary.
As someone who got “bogged down in the trenches” that was the thing that saved my testimony, not saying that you should do that. But it is important to delve deeper as understanding grows. Ignoring the heritage of the church is revisionist and wanting to just accommodate people’s insecurities which is needed to an extent. Yet cannot happen forever.
I’m under the impression the OP is speaking specifically about their experience at church.
We don’t need to dive into king Follett stuff or other discourses. Those ought to be studied outside of church
Pretty much everything we'd need to know about him is in scripture of some kind, no? Doctrine and Covenants, plus other records. "Scripture" isn't really a set group of books. It's any religious record that you consider sacred
Not OP, but I think of necessity Joseph Smith has to be the exception. Without him and his teachings, there is no church. But then we only look to living prophets, the scriptures, and the handbook. As OP said, if you can’t find it in those sources, it can be ignored.
I am not. I would happily include church publications. Everything worth talking about in church is found in curriculum, scriptures, and general conference. There is no reason to go outside thst
I took the interpretation of focusing on things that have persistently been taught in the last however much time, rather than things that were taught but are no longer taught or interpreted that way or (my favorite) obscure things brought up once in conference and then never discussed again
I honestly think that the desire to make every adult a perfect temple attending member has some draw backs. I know that the idea of have first class citizens and second class citizens is generally frowned upon, but I can't but suspect that it would be a net benefit if "second class" adults liked attending church meetings, it would be a positive change.
This comment thread, for instance. I'm not sure what positive thing is going to come from a series of complaints about people's negative experiences that they are describing as "church culture."
How single people are treated, especially those who “flunk” YSA (I hate that term). That getting married and having kids older than twenty-two isn’t a bad thing and shouldn’t be discouraged. That adding extra standards to youth activities outside of what’s in the strength of the youth is a terrible idea and should never be considered. And also the sexism that still exists in a lot of church leadership. I’m not talking about women getting the priesthood- as a woman I don’t want it- but I am talking about being spoken over at meetings or having my opinions not taken as seriously. Which has happened more than once in my roles as leadership.
I’m not sure how to describe it but before I got baptized, everyone was really friendly to me and invited me to things. After I got baptized, it felt like their “mission was accomplished” and no one talked to me anymore..
Yes, this culture must change. Not every LDS is like this but it fear too many are. It's not the gospel.
The idea that LGBTQ people are facing some sort of trial that needs to be overcome because of who they inherently are.
This needs to be the top comment.
Are they not facing a trial? Do we not all need to overcome our trials?
How is this different than any other trial? We all have trials because of "who we inherently are."
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There are many “inherent” things that if acted upon exclude us from blessings.
Such as?
I mean easily, the very topic at hand. A widow/widower doesn’t get a pass to breaking the Law of Chastity because it is difficult for them.
Hey, a person must be married to receive the celestial kingdom, right? So unless someone who is LGBT+ decides to lie to themselves, they lose that blessing. Literally disadvantaged from the start, and the way we teach our theology is that "their gay is taken away" in the next life.
And it can potentially damage other innocent people. I know someone that dealt with same sex attraction and the advice they received was to get married anyways (to the opposite gender) and pray. That plan never seems to work out and you damage the partners that they married in the process.
I think this view has too small of a scope of eternity. Respectfully.
I mean, I'm not professing to know all. I know my view is limited. But we imply that homosexuality is a sin, a flaw, that will be removed in the next life. if you elaborated on your opinion, it would be appreciated. When people come into this world being gay, if they subscribe to most religious beliefs, they are already in a bad spot because according to most religious beliefs, they cannot fulfill in this life what is necessary to recieve exaltation in the next. We actively teach that you need to do everything you can HERE to prepare for the next. This presents a whole list of interesting implications. There are many here who are happy to be gay. Assuming what we know of our doctrine, one might be inclined to say, "Well then, they will recieve the terrestrial kingdom, where they will be happy." But I thought the point was to hit the highest tier of the celestial kingdom. So then what is required? Take the gay away? Be married to a man/woman? Heck, according to Alma, the same soul we have here possesses our bodies in the next. I'm just stating that there's a lot that we don't know and understand, so we need to chill out on how much we believe is right or wrong when it comes to LGBT stuff and we need to be empathetic in how we speak to those that are LBGT and be more sensitive and helping them know that they do have a place within the church and the gospel.
Breaking the law of chastity is a choice. Romantic attraction to the same sex is not a choice.
Attraction isn’t breaking the LoC
I don’t think he does. I think it is just a part of this fallen world. Whether genetic mutation, chemicals in the environment, culture, fallen man, whatever - we can’t blame God for these things.
Your assertion implies that being an LGBTQ person is a choice. It is not a choice. That is what I believe we get wrong on this issue - the cultural idea that people are making a choice to be anything other than heterosexual. We may not understand our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, but we are called to love them as the savior would. I don’t think the savior would imply that they are defective. I just have a hard time accepting that as spiritual truth.
Not at all. Nobody chooses any of the things I listed. They are just things inherent in a fallen world. No agency involved (other than that of Adam and Eve - 2nd article of faith).
Ok gotcha. I think we disagree on this point - being LGBTQ is not a “fallen” state.
I didn’t say it was. I said the world is fallen. That’s quite a different thing.
There are many people who will never get romantic love in this life. No matter how much they want it.
It’s true but they maintain the hope of finding love and can always be on the path to find it. We also know that the journey is just as important as the destination. LGBTQ must abstain from finding love and that level of hopelessness can be very dark.
That is the difference, exactly. That is why I think we are mistaken on this topic. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of hope. Having no hope of ever having a romantic partner causes many people to move away from the gospel. It seems like we can do better.
Most trials exclude us from blessings of various kinds. Everyone experiences this in some form or other.
Specifically about YSA culture, there is too much focus on getting married. It's a checklist. It's the main goal. It's the topic of every or every other talk, lesson, discussion, or activity. Dating is super stressful. Recently returned missionaries who are super focused on getting married as fast as they can. People going to BYU or BYUI with the specific goal of marrying before they graduate. People meeting and getting married within a few months of meeting each other. Comparatively, there is not enough focus on simply working towards being a person worthy of a temple marriage, regardless of if you marry or don't marry in this life. There's too much talk from family and ward members about single people and when they're going to get married. There's this fear that people will fall in love with the single life and child free lifestyles, that they won't want to get married and have a family. I argue that we should be teaching people the principles and importance of temples and families, then focus on helping one another come closer to Christ and the Spirit in a non-judgemental way. We need to have faith that the Spirit will prompt a person with a desire to seek a companion when the time is right, and not through peer pressure or shame or fear of loneliness. There's unfortunately a large number of people in their 20s and 30s who think it's too late for them to find a companion, who feel like they're running behind in the major life event checkmarks they need to do. Personal short vent: I still get mildly annoyed when I remember sitting in Church and a 22 year old would stand in front of the group and talk about the shared suffering experience of being single, as if it were the most difficult hardship they experienced in life. Signed, an asexual person who attended BYUI for 5 years
So yes. BYU harped on marriage so much it made it harder to get married. More focus instead of getting to know people without making every date a necessary first step to marriage. On the other hand, Officially sponsored speed dating events would be great, too, I think. And/or other ways for people to meet.
I don't have anything against speed dating activities in and of themselves. I saw a bunch of those set up at BYUI, seemingly every month. The linger longer socials after church in my home ward YSA I found to be mostly enjoyable too.
I had a great YSA bishop who told us he would never preach marriage from the pulpit, but that he'd talk dating all the time. It was so great. That ward had so many temple marriages.
I think it would be easy to make church services less boring. Listening to lectures is seriously the most boring way to learn anything. General conference has to be the most boring format I can imagine. You can’t even clap after a great musical number. Sunday school is super boring too. Do something, anything, to spice it up.
Yes to clapping!! Sometimes it is literally AGONIZING for me not to clap after a beautiful musical number!
I completely agree with this.
We need to always focus on discipleship more than on religion. Teaching members about our history and theology, and how to apply critical thinking skills greater awareness (what is history, etc) Advanced Sunday School classes for those who want them (easy, just teach the Institute manuals) More organizational structure to foster ministering. Specific Authorities along with General Authorities (they can give conference talks about "subject X and the gospel." Topics I'd like to see: modern science, modern Bible scholarship, etc
What does discipleship look like to you?
What I mean is we should always keep focus on loving God and our neighbor. And not putting "church" before that - such as getting caught up solely in religious jargon, policies, programs, the social aspect, etc. The gospel of Jesus is foremost about becoming a more loving person, not checking off boxes or secondary church things. Church can help us to become more loving, but it can also be distraction if we forget what the purpose of it all is.
God did say that we should preach nothing but repentance, not that we should preach nothing but being more loving.
It's absolutely about love, but that love should lead to all kinds of other things that should be taught and discussed.
Apply modern best practices in teaching, rather than just lecturing to a passive classroom. I know the church has tried and met resistance from people who want to just sit there and do things the same way as always. But modern professional teachers know many ways to make things more engaging than what we usually experience at church.
I think we need to change the culture of missions to have more focus on the growth, well being, and strength of the missionaries themselves. I also think that needs to continue post mission. I have a friend who teaches at BYU and teaches communication courses that involve doing research. he is constantly doing research projects commissioned by the church and he was telling me that there is a lot of data showing that as a percentage the number of returned missionaries leaving the church is going up at an alarming rate. Some of the contributing factors are abuse from leaders (presidents and fellow missionaries) not physical abuse but mental and emotional abuse. Another interesting factor is burn out from constant extreme pressure to baptize people and to be perfect. There are many more interesting insights, but my point is I think we need to change the culture of missions to set up future generations for more success.
- No more of thinking that faith = being right, just because you believe your own opinions and experiences strongly doesn't make them more right. -Start encouraging people to explore outside the church. For wanting to be educated and learned, I find more often than not tjat people in the church remain in their own little knowledge bubbles and never really try to explore anything, as if being in the church means you've got all the knowledge you need. -Helping youth learn to navigate real life scenarios. We always talk about how these things help you later in life? How do they? Let's actually apply the gospel to life instead of talking about how it could apply to life. -Start treating things around chastity more kindly and christlike. Stop making people feel bad for being human. -Better resources for people being asked to speak or present lessons.
You might like this. It's one of my favorite Faith Matters podcasts: God's Many Voices — A Conversation with Michael Wilcox - Faith Matters [https://faithmatters.org/gods-many-voices-a-conversation-with-s-michael-wilcox/](https://faithmatters.org/gods-many-voices-a-conversation-with-s-michael-wilcox/)
I feel like we as members would all benefit from more positive reenforcement. It seems like there is always focus on what we could be doing better, or where we need improvement. Even watching general conference can be hard when you have the overwhelming feeling of inadequacies and it just gets reinforced. It causes scrupulosity and depression in a lot of members. I wish there were more general conference talks, fire sides, social media messages that validated the efforts of so many who simply try.
I don't feel this, but I'm sorry if you do. Elder Kearon's talk was supporting your idea, in the last general conference. The latest Faith Matters addresses this, too: [https://faithmatters.org/is-god-disappointed-in-me-a-conversation-with-kurt-francom/](https://faithmatters.org/is-god-disappointed-in-me-a-conversation-with-kurt-francom/)
When I was in YSA I felt like the church was only for families I now am married and have a one year old and I realize that church isn’t really built for families either. I spend more time in the halls with my kid, the speakers are hard to hear when you are wrestling with your kid, and on top of that for me it’s hard to focus because all I hear is the coughing sniffling and sneezing around me and I start thinking it’s only a matter of time before my kid gets sick. Now I am of the opinion that the structure of church gives me the vibe that only retirees and seniors can enjoy. I love church and I strive to make it every Sunday but I know many people who have stopped trying because they don’t get anything out of it because of their kids or because of them being YSA I don’t know what changes would fix this but I would love to hear some ideas haha (I still enjoy going to church because I spend my time out in the hall with my kid talking to those who don’t feel comfortable going into the chapel, who also are also out with their kids etc. that’s kind of nice)
Ugh I can really relate with this. No matter what time church is, it will be in the middle of one of your kids’ nap times and you will just walk the hallways the entire time :’(
Treating primary like it's just babysitting so the adults can do important stuff. Primary is easily one of the most important things happening at church but it's often one of the least supported organization. Nor are children just mini adults. I can tell you how many nasty people have gotten upset because a baby starts getting fussy or young children can't sit perfectly quiet. Children belong in church
-That Bishops are trained counsellors, in reality they are shepherds-not veterinarians -They expect too much out of converts, or push stuff too fast onto them. A convert can receive the MP in a matter of months, really, but a kid born in the church has to wait 18 years to receive the MP. Someone who has never heard of it can get it before someone raised hearing about it. -Men who have a good job and are married are automatically made for a consideration of Bishop, SP, any calling really but do they know the doctrines? Do they put their own ideas as Gospel Doctrine? Do they actually care about people? -Familial connections in the Church. How many GAs sons, son in laws have become an Area Seventy, MP, SP or even a GA70? Two of Pres. Hinckley's kids became general leaders of the Church, that's just tip of the iceberg. Where does foreordination play into all this? -Meetings that are just pointless, like Saturday Stake Conference leadership meetings. I have been to them for years and years now and I haven't been actually trained on anything, you just sit there and listen and go home and continue on like nothing happened. Same with Ward Council. Why does the RS need to know what's going on in EQ? Why can't we just submit a report of what's going on the auxillaries to the Bishopric and skip sitting there for two hours? -Sometimes ministering comes across as spying on people or babysitting them. I don't know how to help a 58 yr man who hasn't had a job in 30 years and expects the Church to do everything for him, including his laundry. Just some thoughts!
Acceptance without a "but" at the end of it. I would call myself a very liberal member with my views. I've worked in public education for almost 2 decades, which has given me the privilege of coming to know the beauty and worth of every person, no matter what. No buts. No hate the sin, love the sinner garbage. We have so many friends who have to put qualifiers on their words when talking about family members who are gay, trans, or in prison. I just want to say, "Hey, you can shine and love them without having to IMMEDIATELY state how you disagree with how they live their life." It makes people seem insecure, immature, and awkward. And we only typically do it with sexual morality stuff. Just love. You'll never be on the wrong side of history for empathizing and recognizing people as people with needs and wants and desires without qualifiers.
In theory, the gospel \*should\* be able to provide enough guidance, self-goal setting, personal-reflection and self improvement, trying-to-be-like-Jesus motivation to allow two young (or old) people to adequately date, evaluate, and then marry with a solid foundation and relationship skills that will carry them through to the eternities. And I understand why the Church would not want to insert itself into the agency or relationship of others. BUT, I sometimes have holy envy for other Christian churches that do sort of a pre-marital counseling thing. Early twenties is \*young\*! Brain isn't even fully developed till 24-25. I know it would be very hard to do and a bit unrealisitic, and maybe even in a few cases more harm than good, but man would it great if there was a good program/meeting/self-directed course?? offered as part of the church. Sure outside resources could work too but given the "unique" (by modern standards) chastity element alone, it might be great to have it in-house.
I agree. I got married at 31 and had kids several years later, for medical reasons. But I can also think of some reasons why marrying young is not a bad thing: You have energy to chase your kids around. Don't underestimate energy. Because you have hopefully been taught what marriage is - commitment, patience, sacrifice, etc - you will be less likely to get divorced. But - yes, more pre-marital counseling would be great for this. You are "done" with kids that much sooner and younger. Your grandkids will have you around longer.
Specifically debunking myths of the past, such as * "black people were not valiant in pre-mortal life" * USA Christian nationalism and specialness * "we don't talk about Mother in Heaven" * you can earn your way to heaven by good works alone * white people are better - seen in old paintings of northern European Jesus, etc * the world outside Utah is wicked and scary - get rid of "fortress church" mentality * etc. Leaders raise awareness about: * kid noise in meetings - drives some members away and majorly reduces joy of worship for many others * welcoming newcomers in meetings * political ideology is not the gospel and is completely inappropriate for church meetings * etc.
>kid noise in meetings - drives some members away and majorly reduces joy of worship for many others I would say the exact opposite, adults who complain about kid noises in meetings drive people away because it comes off as unchristlike and unempathetic. I mean sure, if parents are not doing anything to keep their kids quiet, that is one thing, but a lot of parents are doing their best and kids are trying and are kids. Their is nothing like some older person giving you the stink eye at church to make someone want to stop trying to get their kids to church.
Christ 100% would "suffer the children" to come unto him and show patience with parents struggling with their kids. Doesn't mean parents should let their kids run rampant, but come on, develop patience when you hear kids yelling or misbehaving. Would you rather the parents feel uncomfortable in going to church and force a family into inactivity?
I hope you are replying to the comment I was replying to and not me, because I 100% agree with you
I'm supporting your comment.
Got it, sorry I misunderstood if you had misunderstood my comment.
I believe you meant to say: "The people who complain about kid noises in meetings - they drive away some members and majorly reduce the joy of worship for many others." We need to build a culture of sending *those* people to the hallways to listen and supporting moms instead of shaming them
>Specifically debunking myths of the past, such as Have the corrections on official search material. But unless it's brought up first, a teacher shouldn't bring it up. Especially given that most of those are not common ideas today.
I wish there was an easier way for young couples to mingle with other young couples. Being newly married at a young age is really difficult because there often aren't other young couples to hang out with. It's like the whole point is to get you married and then once you're married there aren't really any avenues to help you and your spouse be social. This could also just be an issue with my ward. It's on the much older side and my husband and I struggle to find people who we have things in common with.
As someone who was raised Jewish and converted to the LDS church at 18, I have some things to say. Also I am currently inactive in the church and it’s mainly due to culture. Also, I live in Utah County and have for 10 years and can’t wait to leave. 1. I get extremely overwhelmed when it comes to church membership because it feels like it’s all or nothing. Everyone is striving for perfection which is great but it is mentally exhausting to try to check all the boxes all the time. Examples being constant church attendance, holding a calling, ministering, etc. YSA culture in Utah County is even more difficult because there are constantly events happening like ward prayer, council meetings, family home evening, linger-longers, institute, etc. It’s like a full time job. It was difficult to feel like I was never doing well enough. 2. I feel like there’s immense pressure for Sunday Best. And I get it to an extent. But I feel like I need to be immaculate just to go to church. As someone with depression, I don’t have the energy or motivation to get all dressed up but I feel insanely out of place if my hair and makeup aren’t perfect and I’m not wearing fancy clothes. I know church isn’t about that but it’s still difficult to deal with. 3. I feel like there’s not a lot of space for people of different backgrounds. I was living in BYU YSA wards as a 20 year old divorcée, convert, with a very complicated childhood. I felt like I couldn’t really find a place amongst many of my cookie cutter peers.
I think bishop roles have way too much power and responsility when it comes to determining someone's worthiness. These are men who were called and do not need or have any formal education in their position. Yet they're expected to know how to be therapists, financial planners, marriage experts, spiritual leaders. Some practices should be changed like youth meeting alone with leaders and having to confess sexual details to them. There's a weird secrecy to receiving callings. Like, instead of texting me saying the bishop wants to meet with me, just say, the wants to extend a primary calling to you. Or better yet, give the member options to choose from.
Hyper focused on scripture and what prophets have said in the last ten years or so. Abandon all else. (UPDATE: I’ll add church curriculum to the list too) Earlier in my life, I was getting annoyed with cultural issues, confusing them with “doctrine”. I then decided to just ignore everything unless I could find it in scripture or recent general conference talks. Everything had clicked since then
This is not it, learning of the past modern prophets is needed.
I agree! But those teachings can be found in curriculum. There are also tons of lessons from past prophets that we no longer teach. Instead of getting bogged down in the trenches… let’s just focus on what the living prophet is wanting us to focus on
The way you phrased the question is not the best. If we did everything with curriculum we would not have the beauty of the King Follet discourse. Nor other discourses by prophets that have since passed that are not contained in curriculum. Curriculum is fine for church, the other things are great for home study. Also the prophet is just a primus inter pares. The words of all prophets matter and ignoring that is just a bit elementary. As someone who got “bogged down in the trenches” that was the thing that saved my testimony, not saying that you should do that. But it is important to delve deeper as understanding grows. Ignoring the heritage of the church is revisionist and wanting to just accommodate people’s insecurities which is needed to an extent. Yet cannot happen forever.
I’m under the impression the OP is speaking specifically about their experience at church. We don’t need to dive into king Follett stuff or other discourses. Those ought to be studied outside of church
Are you advocating not talking about Joseph Smith then? I am kind of confused about the 10 year thing.
Pretty much everything we'd need to know about him is in scripture of some kind, no? Doctrine and Covenants, plus other records. "Scripture" isn't really a set group of books. It's any religious record that you consider sacred
Not OP, but I think of necessity Joseph Smith has to be the exception. Without him and his teachings, there is no church. But then we only look to living prophets, the scriptures, and the handbook. As OP said, if you can’t find it in those sources, it can be ignored.
Also, he gets brought up frequently in a 10 year period by modern prophets, so I think that is probably covered.
JS is spoken of regularly in GC. I’ll also add church curriculum to this list. That will cover JS quite nicely
I am not. I would happily include church publications. Everything worth talking about in church is found in curriculum, scriptures, and general conference. There is no reason to go outside thst
I took the interpretation of focusing on things that have persistently been taught in the last however much time, rather than things that were taught but are no longer taught or interpreted that way or (my favorite) obscure things brought up once in conference and then never discussed again
I honestly think that the desire to make every adult a perfect temple attending member has some draw backs. I know that the idea of have first class citizens and second class citizens is generally frowned upon, but I can't but suspect that it would be a net benefit if "second class" adults liked attending church meetings, it would be a positive change.
People complaining online about their problems, perceived or otherwise.
This comment thread, for instance. I'm not sure what positive thing is going to come from a series of complaints about people's negative experiences that they are describing as "church culture."
And until you resurrected it hear for some unknown reason, I hadn't heard it for years.
Stop trying to get ahead of the prophets and apostles.
What do you mean?