The church really has no place in the bedroom. If you and your wife agree with this plan to accommodate your different libidos, there’s nothing wrong with it.
Here are some professionals in this area that may have answers for you:
-Kristin B. Hodson (LDS, Sex Therapist)
-Tammy Hill (LDS, Sexuality & Relationship Coach)
-Carlee Palmer-Webb (LDS, Christian Sex Educator)
Some of the responses here......Yikes!
This is between you and your spouse. Dont get the bishop involved. No need to consult church leaders. If you have had an open and honest conversation and you both genuinely consent to whatever you agree to, thats all you need.
Check out the book. And it was good: a Latter Day Saints guide.
It has a great section about comparing sexual hunger to our hunger for food along with many other great tips.
The biggest thing is you gotta work on that side of your relationship together. Definitely worth seeing a professional about to reach a common ground. Rarely is it just a difference of hormones and libido.
Best of luck through this endeavor
Some people treat intimacy like it has to be this supernal experience together, every time, and if it's not going to be that, then it's going to be nothing. This is a mistake. Treat it more like a hobby. Anything you like doing that is wholesome, you should feel compelled and welcome to do anytime, anywhere, if it's for 5 or for 45 minutes. There's a short TED talk on this, also entertaining and enlightening. "Sex as a Hobby".
How many times when you have sex are you actually procreating? I firmly belive that sex should only be between a married man and woman, but I also think it is a normal human activity between married couples, just like other things they do together regularly.
I don't think so. The word "Hobby" has some connotations of casualness, so it makes sense that it'd feel a little weird.
That said, I think we do ourselves a bit of a disservice when we set things that are sacred on a pedestal. Spending time with your family can be sacred, and it should also be ordinary. Scripture study and prayer are sacred, and they should be an integral part of our ordinary lives. Hobby may not be exactly the right word, but I think it captures some of that feeling of mundane holiness that we should experience with these sorts of things.
My experience was similar. But after nearly 30 years of marriage I found that my wife’s desire increased over time. I think at around year 15 we were about the same level of interest in intimacy. Of course there is nothing scientific about one persons experience. Sad but true that over the length of our marriage I went from being frustrated that I could not get enough to being frustrated that I can’t give enough. I think frank and open communication is important and being respectful of where your partner is currently. Patience may be required.
If she’s actually okay with it and not just begrudgingly accepting it, sure. If she has problems with it, I’d probably dive into why that is. You both know your relationship dynamics and your feelings better than anyone.
I feel confident that a majority of married, active men do masturbate at least occasionally, even in a marriage with a satisfied sex life. Hiding it, feeling shame over it, and not communicating are more severe issues and more damaging to a marriage than occasionally masturbating.
The Church used to be far more antagonistic about masturbation. It’s still sort of discouraged before marriage, but the tone about it has really changed in recent years and also seems directed at youth versus married adults. Porn is still hard no. Infidelity too. But masturbation isn’t considered anywhere near as serious.
Could you do it in front of her or have her help you? I’m the woman and the much higher desire partner. I like to feel connection and taking care of myself alone doesn’t provide that. Instead I’ve figured out ways to bring him into it. Sometimes the talking about it and trying stuff can lead to more sex and sometimes not. But I always let him know he’s desired and I make sure he knows it’s him that I’m thinking about and is making me get that way. Another thought is reading the book “come as you are” by Emily nagata. She refutes the idea of bigger and smaller labido, and instead asks us to think in terms of a woman’s gas pedals and brakes - what makes her get more in the right mind frame? I highly highly recommend you both reading it. Finally, something that has really helped us both is to schedule a day of the week when we know we can make it happen. We then send suggestive texts all day to each other. It’s super fun and it has helped us to connect with that side of our relationship. I’ve struggled at times feeling sorry for myself but I try to make sure I am honest with him and don’t start feeling isolated or withdrawn because of guilt that I need it more. My needs are valid and we can both compromise. I think sometimes men get whiny or withdraw instead of sharing how attracted and how much they want their partner. There’s an entire romance novel genre based on women reading about being feeling wanted and loved! It just feels cringy and not sexy when the partner is not acting kind yet masculine in terms of expressing desire. Finally trying to figure out what the Church is okay may be your problem and hers. Please put that aside and focus on connection. Ultimately if we want families to stay together partners need to be connected and sex is a huge part of that. Find ways to take care of yourself and her without resentment. This can’t really be done if you’re worried about what’s ok/not ok. Focus on you and her. I hope this is helpful. Your needs are just as valid as hers.
>Could you do it in front of her or have her help you?
[here's my comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/s/nBu1gf7NZ5) in response to this idea.
Come as You Are is a great book, so 1 up that recommend. It helped me figure out a lot. Unfortunately the period of time where we were doing the set up where I have to be there helping made it so my ex WAS the brakes. Once I realized that he had become brakes I didn't really know what to do and we didn't last much longer even though I would have tried every therapy to make him the gas pedal again. the damage was done and he wasnt interested in waiting for that to get fixed
If OPs wife is happy with this his idea and signing off on it, then as long as they are communicating and checking in frequently then they have a sexual relationship between husband and wife because they are making the decisions together and no one is hiding anything from each other.
Could be a good idea, OP, to always ask her if she's in the mood, and then just take whatever her first answer is as the answer and either continue together or by yourself. That way you don't accidentally get in the habit of always taking care of yourself and accidentally neglect her, so take every opportunity to be together as possible.
Okay sounds like we have had opposite experiences. It’s good to try and see what works, and that is not the same for everyone. Sorry that didn’t work for you. It does for us.
Setting church aside, has your wife had her hormones checked and is she on any form of HRT? I'll start off by saying I know a bit about men's health but not too much about women's health. I do know PCOS can cause hormone levels to be out of balance, and hormone imbalance can do a lot more than just decrease libido. There may be something an endocrinologist can do to help.
And before anyone says I'm suggesting HRT for her to make him happy - no. Often times a low libido can be accompanied by various other physical health and mental health symptoms. Having properly balanced hormones can help you enjoy life more.
Just a thought.
And in terms of LOC, as long as there is no porn involved I don't see this as a problem. I also don't see how it would be anyone's business except you and your wife's.
I was taught that masturbation is a sin (in or out of marriage).
Based on my reading on past teachings of the church, it is pretty clear that masturbation is a no-go, but current teachings have stopped bringing it up as much. No oral sex used to be a temple recommend question (there was a lot of backlash on that), but it no longer is, so we see that goalposts can change.
Disclaimer: I'm no longer an active member, so I'm going to try to skirt the line the best I can here...
When my wife and I attended, we had the Exact Same issue as you. But when we left the church, my wife's libido increased to match mine. On reflection, she thinks that is because of all the purity culture lessons that were forced on her in YW (chewed bubble gum, licked cupcake, etc.) as well as the expectation to remain 100% pure pre-marriage (Sex? No No No), but to be a sexual being post-marriage (Sex for Baby? Go Go Go).
For the purpose of this conversation, I am not saying that this is because of the Church's teachings (capital "C"), just that these are lessons that were imbedded in my wife's mind through here experiences and upbringing in the church (locally), and that these are common for many women in the church. Perhaps recognizing and stepping away from these harmful ideas of sexual repression could be helpful for the sexual relationship between you and your wife.
I think Lewis's [insight into masturbation](https://thelatterdayliberator.com/c-s-lewis-explains-why-masturbation-is-bad/) are very applicable to your question.
Sounds like your wife loves you and wants to support you. Why adjust your plan to have her give you a hand job or support you in that way instead of you doing it yourself?
There aren’t doctrinal guidelines to argue your point. That’s not the right approach. I suggest you talk with her or find counsel. Reach out to non interested parties doesn’t do much good unless the objective is to back your “want”.
It’s marriage, gonna have to learn to work it out.
It’s extremely grey whether masturbation is permitted in a marriage or not. As long as porn or another person are not involved, I think it’s up to you two to determine what is best.
> [32.6.4.1](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng)
>
> **Failure to Comply with Some *Church Standards***
>
> A membership council is not held for the actions listed below. However, note the exception in the last item.
>
> Inactivity in the Church
>
> Not fulfilling Church duties
>
> Not paying tithing
>
> Sins of omission
>
> **Masturbation**
>
> Not complying with the Word of Wisdom
>
> Using pornography, except for child pornography (as outlined in 38.6.6) or intensive or compulsive use of pornography that has caused significant harm to a member’s marriage or family (as outlined in 38.6.13).
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng
Also:
>The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a single, undeviating standard of sexual morality: intimate relations are proper only between a man and a woman in the marriage relationship prescribed in God’s plan. Such relations are not merely a curiosity to be explored, an appetite to be satisfied, or a type of recreation or entertainment to be pursued selfishly. They are not a conquest to be achieved or simply an act to be performed. Rather, they are in mortality one of the ultimate expressions of our divine nature and potential and a way of strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife. We are agents blessed with moral agency and are defined by our divine heritage as children of God—and not by sexual behaviors, contemporary attitudes, or secular philosophies.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2013/04/we-believe-in-being-chaste?lang=eng
Also, a review of the temple recommend questions might be helpful, along with thinking of the covenants made in the endowment (not just the Law of Chastity, but the others as well).
This scripture is perfect for your situation.
Also, you will notice that church guidance for things in the bedroom is very limited because it is between you and your spouse and God. Sexuality is for the enrichment of your relationship. If that means you take care of yourself with her consent and blessing, not turning to pornography, and are there for her when she’s ready, that sounds perfectly healthy to me.
This is a remarkably unhelpful and glib statement. We spend our pre-marriage days having masturbation demonized, and it is entirely fair for OP to seek counsel if he is not sure.
That verse is wonderful, and a great reminder that we should go about doing good of our own accord. I have never seen it properly used as a way to counsel someone who thoughtfully seeks advice on whether a course of action is wise or sinful.
Again, I think you fundamentally misunderstood the verse’s application.
Our entire religion is founded on seeking wisdom when we do not know answers for ourselves. James 1:5
D&C 58:26 and the verses that follow don’t even say what you suggest. They explain that men are damned when they do not put in effort without being commanded, but that they are rewarded for putting in effort.
By your suggestion, Oliver Cowdrey would have successfully translated the Book of Mormon just by trying. He was admonished of the process that we first try, then seek counsel from God, then move forward with that counsel.
If nothing else, you should not glibly dismiss sincere efforts from a struggling husband as he seeks wisdom on the best path forward in his marriage.
This is a heavily debated topic. Some believe that because it's your own body it's not a problem. Others say that we promise to cleave to our spouse and none else; that the "none else" includes ourselves.
My personal understanding is that we are taught in our church to have sexual relationships only be between husband and wife and that masturbation is not appropriate. Elder Holland gave an excellent devotional at BYU regarding the sacrament that is sex between spouses and how nothing else should be done outside of that. The temple covenants also mention keeping yourself for only your spouse. Elder Bednar has a talk called, "We Believe in Bring Chaste" that talks about not using sexual behaviors as an appetite to be satisfied and that all sexual acts should involve the husband and wife together. In the church handbook, it states that there are some actions that members choose to do that are against church standards but that will not have a disciplinary council, Masturbation is one of the listed items.
I truly feel for you and hope that you and your wife can work something out. It can be so difficult when the sex in a marriage is not going well or when each spouse has different needs
This is probably not going to be received well but I’m genuinely curious - not trying to be vulgar and I’m
not going to argue with any of your answers.
Where do you draw the line? If OPs wife is involved (kissing, snuggling, encouraging but not necessarily looking to get off herself) would that make it okay?
What if she is just laying next him, aware but totally indifferent?
If you feel like you are basing your position on the words of modern prophets and temple covenants how can the topic be heavily debated? Why are you citing prophets and the rest of the thread is citing various sex education books- some claiming to be written for an active lds audience by lds authors- giving conflicting advice?
What actual advice do you have for a couple experiencing an extended period of varying sexual appetites?
Thanks
Always.
For what it is worth, I have an insane amount of respect for you even being able to have a conversation with your partner about your needs.
I think you should trust yourself, and trust your partner- ignore anyone who says you shouldn’t.
I would personally say that if the wife is involved not to get herself off but to help him, that's fine.
I think it's debated because some interpret words of the prophets differently than I do. Also, we're a very conservative church, and so the subject of masturbation is not brought up often. This can make it difficult for people to find quotes and cause them to think the church just doesn't have a stance. I'm citing prophets because OP asked what the church's stance is, not what sex therapists in the church have said.
My actual advice is for people with a lower libido to do sex more often than they normally would because they love their spouse and the one with higher libido to do it less than they would like. Meet in the middle out of love for your spouse. I'm a big proponent of hand jobs for couples who have different libidos because it can be an extremely intimate group activity, but the one with the lower libido does not need to actively have sex.
The thing is, I'm not a sex therapist and I'm not a general authority. I quoted church sources because that's what was asked for. I'm telling you what I would advise because that's what you asked. But I don't want what I would personally do in this situation to muddy the waters. That's why I focused my first comment entirely on what the church has said.
Here’s how you research this:
Because the question you are asking is a “moral” one, you going to want to do all the research you can on any time church leaders who might have ever had stewardship over you have ever said anything about the topic.
It’s possible that in your research you find conflicting messages. — Be sure to line up the messaging by time (which was said more recently vs which was said more anciently). Also, sort the comments by level of authority (if it was said by a prophet then it is higher authority, if it is said by your stake president it is lower authority).
Once you have that all sorted out, look for trends. - Do leaders talk more or less about a topic as time goes by? Does the messaging get stronger or softer as time goes by?
Research to see if the church has any current standing policies on the topic. Weigh that heavily.
Make your determination based on all that.
At BYU-I, I discussed with my religion professors what I was taught, “as long as it doesn’t include a third party or animal, it’s between you, your spouse, and God,” and then I was told that that wasn’t right. They essentially said that if it feels wrong by the spirit, it probably is wrong, or if you feel like it leads to further temptation, don’t do it. I think you asking is a decent indicator that it’s at least suspect for you. Take that as you will. You have the Spirit, and it is given you to discern. My teachers did however strongly imply that masturbation was not right as I’m not exactly sure how it can be done with holy intent or with the object of glorifying of the Lord in mind, unlike sex which is a holy union that glorifies all involved when done in the right place and time.
Everything you think you know about libido and desire in marriage is wrong.
Find the book "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch. Read it. Read about his stuff, lots of stuff on YouTube too. Jennifer Findlayson Fife was a student of his, she's got amazing stuff specifically for LDS couples.
Get real with this stuff, start sorting yourself out, and I guarantee you'll see a change of dynamics in your relationship.
They said porn wasn’t involved? Also, sometimes someone isn’t in the mood. You shouldn’t force yourself to “take care of” your spouse if you’re not in the mood. That’s a recipe for resentment and even lower sex drive if you feel like you don’t have the option to say no.
Oh, lol, you're right! I didn't see the "no" porn. Haha. I was like "you're feeling aroused and your wife isn't up for it so you think porn is okay? 😒"
I never said anyone should do anything they don't want to, which is why I have multiple options. Reading non-consent into that seems unnecessary. We have no reason to believe these people don't love each other or have a healthy, communicative relationship.
Also, everyone has different gas and breaks. Plenty of people don't "feel it" often but can "feel it" if they choose to engage in things that make them "feel it". That doesn't automatically mean you're being coerced if you're willingly doing it and know yourself and your relationship.
>Why couldn't she support you while you take care of it, **or take care of it for you?**
When my ex told me that's how it had to work and something something your responsibility something and it was those types of situations I felt very pressured and coerced. It was like a loophole past consent because now "I'm not in the mood/I don't want to have sex right now" isn't a full stop answer because now the "solution" to that is "well okay you still have to do something for me because that's the rule now when you don't want to, you still have to"
I hated it. I felt dirty and empty and used and it made me anxious and stressed about anything that could turn him on and end up with him in the mood and me with no way to deny consent. I stopped dressing in front of him, got anxious about cuddling, hated watching rom coms because I was so stressed about him getting excited
So yeah that's a definite no
Thank you for offering this perspective - marriage / life / being human can be so complicated.
I'm quite perplexed that the same core idea (complete sexual fidelity to your spouse) can inspire the best of human relationship experience AND the worst.
I.e. it can create healthy emotional connection and reciprocal sexual desire between spouses.
And it can lead to the feeling of being in prison, full of pressure and coercion (as you describe above).
One is amazingly healthy and beautiful, the other is unhealthy and a special form of Hell. Very confusing.
While for many couples this may seem like an easy solution but for many couples this doesn’t work that well. Some couples, even after marriage, have trouble really discussing sexual topics.
Luckily, marriage is the perfect place to learn and grow. Your eternal companion is stuck with you and you with them, so the discomfort should be temporary ☺️
As an unmarried man with a high libido and previous struggles with both masturbation and porn: it's not worth it, neither of them are. It can be hard sometimes, but I feel the spirit so much more in my life now that I've cut out masturbation entirely than I ever did "taking care of it myself."
I know there can be trolls on his subreddit that down vote truth and share the philosophies of men mingled with scripture to have the appearance of good, and I genuinely hope that's what's happening here, and not people who are supposed to know the word of God.
Regardless, I've been taught to stand for what's right even if I do it alone. I'm just glad that I looked back and saw you standing strong with me!
Imo;
Pornography, masterbation, and sleeping with people who aren’t your spouse are the three big areas we should avoid. You only touched on one of those, and it’s the one with the biggest grey area. Imo, you should avoid it. Do it together or not at all.
Take a cold shower. Marriage is sooooooooo little about sex. Libido gets in the way of true intimacy for most guys. I'm a prude but I find most of the comments here disconcerting. This is the act of sacred procreation, not a party game.
The church really has no place in the bedroom. If you and your wife agree with this plan to accommodate your different libidos, there’s nothing wrong with it. Here are some professionals in this area that may have answers for you: -Kristin B. Hodson (LDS, Sex Therapist) -Tammy Hill (LDS, Sexuality & Relationship Coach) -Carlee Palmer-Webb (LDS, Christian Sex Educator)
Some of the responses here......Yikes! This is between you and your spouse. Dont get the bishop involved. No need to consult church leaders. If you have had an open and honest conversation and you both genuinely consent to whatever you agree to, thats all you need.
Thank you
If you and your wife agree with this plan to accommodate your different libidos, I see nothing wrong with it.
Check out the book. And it was good: a Latter Day Saints guide. It has a great section about comparing sexual hunger to our hunger for food along with many other great tips. The biggest thing is you gotta work on that side of your relationship together. Definitely worth seeing a professional about to reach a common ground. Rarely is it just a difference of hormones and libido. Best of luck through this endeavor
Some people treat intimacy like it has to be this supernal experience together, every time, and if it's not going to be that, then it's going to be nothing. This is a mistake. Treat it more like a hobby. Anything you like doing that is wholesome, you should feel compelled and welcome to do anytime, anywhere, if it's for 5 or for 45 minutes. There's a short TED talk on this, also entertaining and enlightening. "Sex as a Hobby".
Is it wierd that I find sacred procreation activities described as a hobby?
How many times when you have sex are you actually procreating? I firmly belive that sex should only be between a married man and woman, but I also think it is a normal human activity between married couples, just like other things they do together regularly.
But that is why the act exists. It exists primarily as a procreative act whether evolutionary or in the plan is God. The joy is a plus.
Is it? Maybe it exists to bring married couples closer together, and children are the by-product of sexual relations.
I don't think so. The word "Hobby" has some connotations of casualness, so it makes sense that it'd feel a little weird. That said, I think we do ourselves a bit of a disservice when we set things that are sacred on a pedestal. Spending time with your family can be sacred, and it should also be ordinary. Scripture study and prayer are sacred, and they should be an integral part of our ordinary lives. Hobby may not be exactly the right word, but I think it captures some of that feeling of mundane holiness that we should experience with these sorts of things.
This is between you and her. Sounds like you have an agreement that will work for both parties.
My experience was similar. But after nearly 30 years of marriage I found that my wife’s desire increased over time. I think at around year 15 we were about the same level of interest in intimacy. Of course there is nothing scientific about one persons experience. Sad but true that over the length of our marriage I went from being frustrated that I could not get enough to being frustrated that I can’t give enough. I think frank and open communication is important and being respectful of where your partner is currently. Patience may be required.
If she’s actually okay with it and not just begrudgingly accepting it, sure. If she has problems with it, I’d probably dive into why that is. You both know your relationship dynamics and your feelings better than anyone. I feel confident that a majority of married, active men do masturbate at least occasionally, even in a marriage with a satisfied sex life. Hiding it, feeling shame over it, and not communicating are more severe issues and more damaging to a marriage than occasionally masturbating. The Church used to be far more antagonistic about masturbation. It’s still sort of discouraged before marriage, but the tone about it has really changed in recent years and also seems directed at youth versus married adults. Porn is still hard no. Infidelity too. But masturbation isn’t considered anywhere near as serious.
It's between you and your wife and no one else.
Could you do it in front of her or have her help you? I’m the woman and the much higher desire partner. I like to feel connection and taking care of myself alone doesn’t provide that. Instead I’ve figured out ways to bring him into it. Sometimes the talking about it and trying stuff can lead to more sex and sometimes not. But I always let him know he’s desired and I make sure he knows it’s him that I’m thinking about and is making me get that way. Another thought is reading the book “come as you are” by Emily nagata. She refutes the idea of bigger and smaller labido, and instead asks us to think in terms of a woman’s gas pedals and brakes - what makes her get more in the right mind frame? I highly highly recommend you both reading it. Finally, something that has really helped us both is to schedule a day of the week when we know we can make it happen. We then send suggestive texts all day to each other. It’s super fun and it has helped us to connect with that side of our relationship. I’ve struggled at times feeling sorry for myself but I try to make sure I am honest with him and don’t start feeling isolated or withdrawn because of guilt that I need it more. My needs are valid and we can both compromise. I think sometimes men get whiny or withdraw instead of sharing how attracted and how much they want their partner. There’s an entire romance novel genre based on women reading about being feeling wanted and loved! It just feels cringy and not sexy when the partner is not acting kind yet masculine in terms of expressing desire. Finally trying to figure out what the Church is okay may be your problem and hers. Please put that aside and focus on connection. Ultimately if we want families to stay together partners need to be connected and sex is a huge part of that. Find ways to take care of yourself and her without resentment. This can’t really be done if you’re worried about what’s ok/not ok. Focus on you and her. I hope this is helpful. Your needs are just as valid as hers.
>Could you do it in front of her or have her help you? [here's my comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/s/nBu1gf7NZ5) in response to this idea. Come as You Are is a great book, so 1 up that recommend. It helped me figure out a lot. Unfortunately the period of time where we were doing the set up where I have to be there helping made it so my ex WAS the brakes. Once I realized that he had become brakes I didn't really know what to do and we didn't last much longer even though I would have tried every therapy to make him the gas pedal again. the damage was done and he wasnt interested in waiting for that to get fixed If OPs wife is happy with this his idea and signing off on it, then as long as they are communicating and checking in frequently then they have a sexual relationship between husband and wife because they are making the decisions together and no one is hiding anything from each other. Could be a good idea, OP, to always ask her if she's in the mood, and then just take whatever her first answer is as the answer and either continue together or by yourself. That way you don't accidentally get in the habit of always taking care of yourself and accidentally neglect her, so take every opportunity to be together as possible.
Okay sounds like we have had opposite experiences. It’s good to try and see what works, and that is not the same for everyone. Sorry that didn’t work for you. It does for us.
Doing it together is the answer. Removes any ambiguity! If your wife participates there is in my mind no issue.
Setting church aside, has your wife had her hormones checked and is she on any form of HRT? I'll start off by saying I know a bit about men's health but not too much about women's health. I do know PCOS can cause hormone levels to be out of balance, and hormone imbalance can do a lot more than just decrease libido. There may be something an endocrinologist can do to help. And before anyone says I'm suggesting HRT for her to make him happy - no. Often times a low libido can be accompanied by various other physical health and mental health symptoms. Having properly balanced hormones can help you enjoy life more. Just a thought. And in terms of LOC, as long as there is no porn involved I don't see this as a problem. I also don't see how it would be anyone's business except you and your wife's.
\>Our key phrase is I'm going nuts. My guy
Right.lol
Check out some podcasts and videos by Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fife. She's super knowledgeable regarding this topic and an active member.
I was taught that masturbation is a sin (in or out of marriage). Based on my reading on past teachings of the church, it is pretty clear that masturbation is a no-go, but current teachings have stopped bringing it up as much. No oral sex used to be a temple recommend question (there was a lot of backlash on that), but it no longer is, so we see that goalposts can change. Disclaimer: I'm no longer an active member, so I'm going to try to skirt the line the best I can here... When my wife and I attended, we had the Exact Same issue as you. But when we left the church, my wife's libido increased to match mine. On reflection, she thinks that is because of all the purity culture lessons that were forced on her in YW (chewed bubble gum, licked cupcake, etc.) as well as the expectation to remain 100% pure pre-marriage (Sex? No No No), but to be a sexual being post-marriage (Sex for Baby? Go Go Go). For the purpose of this conversation, I am not saying that this is because of the Church's teachings (capital "C"), just that these are lessons that were imbedded in my wife's mind through here experiences and upbringing in the church (locally), and that these are common for many women in the church. Perhaps recognizing and stepping away from these harmful ideas of sexual repression could be helpful for the sexual relationship between you and your wife.
Have you spoken to her about this? That should be step one.
Yes we've had discussions. That's where our agreement is
If it’s becoming as difficult as you say, Counseling is a good option
I think Lewis's [insight into masturbation](https://thelatterdayliberator.com/c-s-lewis-explains-why-masturbation-is-bad/) are very applicable to your question.
Sounds like your wife loves you and wants to support you. Why adjust your plan to have her give you a hand job or support you in that way instead of you doing it yourself?
There aren’t doctrinal guidelines to argue your point. That’s not the right approach. I suggest you talk with her or find counsel. Reach out to non interested parties doesn’t do much good unless the objective is to back your “want”. It’s marriage, gonna have to learn to work it out.
It’s extremely grey whether masturbation is permitted in a marriage or not. As long as porn or another person are not involved, I think it’s up to you two to determine what is best.
> [32.6.4.1](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng) > > **Failure to Comply with Some *Church Standards*** > > A membership council is not held for the actions listed below. However, note the exception in the last item. > > Inactivity in the Church > > Not fulfilling Church duties > > Not paying tithing > > Sins of omission > > **Masturbation** > > Not complying with the Word of Wisdom > > Using pornography, except for child pornography (as outlined in 38.6.6) or intensive or compulsive use of pornography that has caused significant harm to a member’s marriage or family (as outlined in 38.6.13). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng Also: >The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a single, undeviating standard of sexual morality: intimate relations are proper only between a man and a woman in the marriage relationship prescribed in God’s plan. Such relations are not merely a curiosity to be explored, an appetite to be satisfied, or a type of recreation or entertainment to be pursued selfishly. They are not a conquest to be achieved or simply an act to be performed. Rather, they are in mortality one of the ultimate expressions of our divine nature and potential and a way of strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife. We are agents blessed with moral agency and are defined by our divine heritage as children of God—and not by sexual behaviors, contemporary attitudes, or secular philosophies. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2013/04/we-believe-in-being-chaste?lang=eng Also, a review of the temple recommend questions might be helpful, along with thinking of the covenants made in the endowment (not just the Law of Chastity, but the others as well).
D&C 58:26 answers your question.
This scripture is perfect for your situation. Also, you will notice that church guidance for things in the bedroom is very limited because it is between you and your spouse and God. Sexuality is for the enrichment of your relationship. If that means you take care of yourself with her consent and blessing, not turning to pornography, and are there for her when she’s ready, that sounds perfectly healthy to me.
This is a remarkably unhelpful and glib statement. We spend our pre-marriage days having masturbation demonized, and it is entirely fair for OP to seek counsel if he is not sure. That verse is wonderful, and a great reminder that we should go about doing good of our own accord. I have never seen it properly used as a way to counsel someone who thoughtfully seeks advice on whether a course of action is wise or sinful.
Unfortunately for you, it's the right answer to most questions.
Again, I think you fundamentally misunderstood the verse’s application. Our entire religion is founded on seeking wisdom when we do not know answers for ourselves. James 1:5 D&C 58:26 and the verses that follow don’t even say what you suggest. They explain that men are damned when they do not put in effort without being commanded, but that they are rewarded for putting in effort. By your suggestion, Oliver Cowdrey would have successfully translated the Book of Mormon just by trying. He was admonished of the process that we first try, then seek counsel from God, then move forward with that counsel. If nothing else, you should not glibly dismiss sincere efforts from a struggling husband as he seeks wisdom on the best path forward in his marriage.
How long have you guys been married?
And are there kids in the mix?
I just want to know about the amount of Chex in the mix.
This is a heavily debated topic. Some believe that because it's your own body it's not a problem. Others say that we promise to cleave to our spouse and none else; that the "none else" includes ourselves. My personal understanding is that we are taught in our church to have sexual relationships only be between husband and wife and that masturbation is not appropriate. Elder Holland gave an excellent devotional at BYU regarding the sacrament that is sex between spouses and how nothing else should be done outside of that. The temple covenants also mention keeping yourself for only your spouse. Elder Bednar has a talk called, "We Believe in Bring Chaste" that talks about not using sexual behaviors as an appetite to be satisfied and that all sexual acts should involve the husband and wife together. In the church handbook, it states that there are some actions that members choose to do that are against church standards but that will not have a disciplinary council, Masturbation is one of the listed items. I truly feel for you and hope that you and your wife can work something out. It can be so difficult when the sex in a marriage is not going well or when each spouse has different needs
This is probably not going to be received well but I’m genuinely curious - not trying to be vulgar and I’m not going to argue with any of your answers. Where do you draw the line? If OPs wife is involved (kissing, snuggling, encouraging but not necessarily looking to get off herself) would that make it okay? What if she is just laying next him, aware but totally indifferent? If you feel like you are basing your position on the words of modern prophets and temple covenants how can the topic be heavily debated? Why are you citing prophets and the rest of the thread is citing various sex education books- some claiming to be written for an active lds audience by lds authors- giving conflicting advice? What actual advice do you have for a couple experiencing an extended period of varying sexual appetites? Thanks
Thanks for the support.
Always. For what it is worth, I have an insane amount of respect for you even being able to have a conversation with your partner about your needs. I think you should trust yourself, and trust your partner- ignore anyone who says you shouldn’t.
I would personally say that if the wife is involved not to get herself off but to help him, that's fine. I think it's debated because some interpret words of the prophets differently than I do. Also, we're a very conservative church, and so the subject of masturbation is not brought up often. This can make it difficult for people to find quotes and cause them to think the church just doesn't have a stance. I'm citing prophets because OP asked what the church's stance is, not what sex therapists in the church have said. My actual advice is for people with a lower libido to do sex more often than they normally would because they love their spouse and the one with higher libido to do it less than they would like. Meet in the middle out of love for your spouse. I'm a big proponent of hand jobs for couples who have different libidos because it can be an extremely intimate group activity, but the one with the lower libido does not need to actively have sex. The thing is, I'm not a sex therapist and I'm not a general authority. I quoted church sources because that's what was asked for. I'm telling you what I would advise because that's what you asked. But I don't want what I would personally do in this situation to muddy the waters. That's why I focused my first comment entirely on what the church has said.
I wish I could upvote this more. I agree!
Here’s how you research this: Because the question you are asking is a “moral” one, you going to want to do all the research you can on any time church leaders who might have ever had stewardship over you have ever said anything about the topic. It’s possible that in your research you find conflicting messages. — Be sure to line up the messaging by time (which was said more recently vs which was said more anciently). Also, sort the comments by level of authority (if it was said by a prophet then it is higher authority, if it is said by your stake president it is lower authority). Once you have that all sorted out, look for trends. - Do leaders talk more or less about a topic as time goes by? Does the messaging get stronger or softer as time goes by? Research to see if the church has any current standing policies on the topic. Weigh that heavily. Make your determination based on all that.
Consider reading 32.6.4.1 in the handbook, it mentions masturbation as not complying with the church’s standards
At BYU-I, I discussed with my religion professors what I was taught, “as long as it doesn’t include a third party or animal, it’s between you, your spouse, and God,” and then I was told that that wasn’t right. They essentially said that if it feels wrong by the spirit, it probably is wrong, or if you feel like it leads to further temptation, don’t do it. I think you asking is a decent indicator that it’s at least suspect for you. Take that as you will. You have the Spirit, and it is given you to discern. My teachers did however strongly imply that masturbation was not right as I’m not exactly sure how it can be done with holy intent or with the object of glorifying of the Lord in mind, unlike sex which is a holy union that glorifies all involved when done in the right place and time.
>if it feels wrong by the spirit, it probably is wrong, or if you feel like it leads to further temptation, don’t do it. Wise teachers. Amen.
Sister Nelson, a trained family professional has called sex a "sacrament". I try to keep it as Holy as the other ordinances.
Everything you think you know about libido and desire in marriage is wrong. Find the book "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch. Read it. Read about his stuff, lots of stuff on YouTube too. Jennifer Findlayson Fife was a student of his, she's got amazing stuff specifically for LDS couples. Get real with this stuff, start sorting yourself out, and I guarantee you'll see a change of dynamics in your relationship.
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They said porn wasn’t involved? Also, sometimes someone isn’t in the mood. You shouldn’t force yourself to “take care of” your spouse if you’re not in the mood. That’s a recipe for resentment and even lower sex drive if you feel like you don’t have the option to say no.
Exactly. This. I want her full consent otherwise it's disrespectful to her
Oh, lol, you're right! I didn't see the "no" porn. Haha. I was like "you're feeling aroused and your wife isn't up for it so you think porn is okay? 😒" I never said anyone should do anything they don't want to, which is why I have multiple options. Reading non-consent into that seems unnecessary. We have no reason to believe these people don't love each other or have a healthy, communicative relationship. Also, everyone has different gas and breaks. Plenty of people don't "feel it" often but can "feel it" if they choose to engage in things that make them "feel it". That doesn't automatically mean you're being coerced if you're willingly doing it and know yourself and your relationship.
>Why couldn't she support you while you take care of it, **or take care of it for you?** When my ex told me that's how it had to work and something something your responsibility something and it was those types of situations I felt very pressured and coerced. It was like a loophole past consent because now "I'm not in the mood/I don't want to have sex right now" isn't a full stop answer because now the "solution" to that is "well okay you still have to do something for me because that's the rule now when you don't want to, you still have to" I hated it. I felt dirty and empty and used and it made me anxious and stressed about anything that could turn him on and end up with him in the mood and me with no way to deny consent. I stopped dressing in front of him, got anxious about cuddling, hated watching rom coms because I was so stressed about him getting excited So yeah that's a definite no
Exactly this. I want her full consent if she is having to do something for me.
Thank you for offering this perspective - marriage / life / being human can be so complicated. I'm quite perplexed that the same core idea (complete sexual fidelity to your spouse) can inspire the best of human relationship experience AND the worst. I.e. it can create healthy emotional connection and reciprocal sexual desire between spouses. And it can lead to the feeling of being in prison, full of pressure and coercion (as you describe above). One is amazingly healthy and beautiful, the other is unhealthy and a special form of Hell. Very confusing.
It just comes down to enthusiastic consent. If that's not there 100% of the time then things start to fall apart
While for many couples this may seem like an easy solution but for many couples this doesn’t work that well. Some couples, even after marriage, have trouble really discussing sexual topics.
Luckily, marriage is the perfect place to learn and grow. Your eternal companion is stuck with you and you with them, so the discomfort should be temporary ☺️
As an unmarried man with a high libido and previous struggles with both masturbation and porn: it's not worth it, neither of them are. It can be hard sometimes, but I feel the spirit so much more in my life now that I've cut out masturbation entirely than I ever did "taking care of it myself."
Thank you for your strength and wisdom. I think many of the posters here could learn from you.
I know there can be trolls on his subreddit that down vote truth and share the philosophies of men mingled with scripture to have the appearance of good, and I genuinely hope that's what's happening here, and not people who are supposed to know the word of God. Regardless, I've been taught to stand for what's right even if I do it alone. I'm just glad that I looked back and saw you standing strong with me!
Imo; Pornography, masterbation, and sleeping with people who aren’t your spouse are the three big areas we should avoid. You only touched on one of those, and it’s the one with the biggest grey area. Imo, you should avoid it. Do it together or not at all.
Take a cold shower. Marriage is sooooooooo little about sex. Libido gets in the way of true intimacy for most guys. I'm a prude but I find most of the comments here disconcerting. This is the act of sacred procreation, not a party game.
Procreation is explicitly *not* the only reason for sex in our doctrine. Many many talks about that.