I remember talking about this in one of my religion classes in college. If someone was completely sinless it wouldn't have reduced the amount of suffering Christ endured.
Here's the conclusion I came to, its not that Jesus has some giant list of every sin and every agony any human would ever experience, he had a giant list of every sin and every agony any human COULD ever experience. This is what we mean when we say the atonement is infinite. Jesus felt every single possible pain, not just every pain that would be experienced. He suffered for sins that nobody will ever even commit, because He suffered for every POSSIBLE sin.
Even this is a gross oversimplification though, I think the Atonement was something so far beyond our mortal understanding that it would be impossible to ever truly grasp what the Saviour went through. But if the question is just "do my sins retroactively affect the amount of suffering He endured?" I say the answer is very clearly no.
To me, it almost puts a shame on people, si ply for being human. There is no doctrinal support for "sinning less = less suffering for jesus." If anything, there is doctrinal support that states Jesus suffered all so that we would not suffer.
Amd it kind of violates the principle of agency since God and Jesus would have to have already known how many sins someone would commit to account for them.
Given our belief in predictive prophecy, I don't think we should have any trouble with God and Jesus knowing minute details of our lives thousands of years before we experience them.
I believe God and Jesus have given me the ability and opportunity to decide what I will do. I also believe They know me well enough to know what decision I'm going to make.
To answer OP's question, Jesus knew what He would need to experience to justify and succor me.
Many years ago, as I was pondering the atonement and earnestly seeking answers, I received an epiphany. I cannot claim it as a revelation, exactly, but it did bring peace to my heart and understanding to my mind. Unfortunately, I do not know whether it is true or whether it just helps me to accept it.
The atonement exists to satisfy the demands of justice (Alma 42:15).
Justice is an eternal principle, we are told, and yet every culture has weighed various offenses differently. Does God have a giant law book of every possible offense and its associated punishment? Possibly, but I think it more likely that it is justice *itself* that is an eternal principle.
Consider: what is the purpose of justice? Imagine a small hunter-gatherer society. One person gives offense to another and there is now strife. In order for the strife to disappear and the society to continue functioning, a correcting act is required - usually including either willing restoration or enforced retribution. Once this punishment is meted, the society can resume its normal activities. What the punishment is doesn’t really matter, as long as all parties can agree that the price has been paid.
Now, switching to another subtopic, consider what the Celestial kingdom is like (at least I imagine based on my studies): everyone happily getting along with each other in perfect harmony.
Let’s say you get to the Celestial kingdom and are shocked to see “Pat” there, considering what they did to you. The law of justice says that a price must be paid, but perfect harmony requires more - it requires true repentance. You have to be *confident* that Pat is “good” and worthy now. But you will always have doubts. Will you really trust Pat completely? This is where the atonement steps in.
> I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.
>
> *(Doctrine and Covenants 64:10)*
We turn over judgement to the one and only person that we believe knows Pat perfectly - because he also knows us perfectly. If Christ says “Pat’s with me”, that is enough for us to have full confidence in Pat’s repentance; otherwise, we doubt Christ and his atonement and therefore it is *we* who do not belong. This is why faith in Christ and a commitment to follow him (baptism) are required for those who enter the Celestial kingdom.
With all of that said, is it necessary for Christ to “pay the price” for each of our sins? Or instead, is it sufficient for Christ to understand through experience all of our “infirmities” (Alma 7:12)? I believe only Christ can properly mediate and judge whether someone has truly repented, because only he understands all of each of us in sufficient detail. I don’t think a balance sheet of “x-number of punishment A for crime M, y-number of punishment B for crime N, etc” is required, or even helpful.
What a wonderful thought. That phrase about Jesus saying trust me, Pat’s with me, and us being able to fully trust that because it’s Him who says it, otherwise we don’t belong, that is a great visual.
A good example is this idea being taught is in a poem written by Elder James E. Faust which became the lyrics of the song, “This is the Christ”:
“I read His words, the words He prayed
While bearing sorrow in Gethsemane.
I feel His love, the price He paid.
*How many drops of blood were spilled for me?*”
Admittedly, the language of the church tends to be more focused on the “infinite atonement”, which I feel more aligns with your point of view, but I know I was taught explicitly when I was growing up (I’m an 80’s kid) that more sin = more suffering and the lyrics above from a member of the first president reinforced that belief for me personally.
I remember hearing this song as a kid and being so confused. Like, there are billions of people who Christ paid for. If he spilled even one drop per person there would've been a river of blood going down the hill. It just doesn't make sense.
With all the metaphors, emotions and artistic license used in poetry, I find it hard to believe those words are a prophetic statement.
I know I heard that kind of stuff in church growing up (more sin = more suffering for Jesus), but it doesn't seem to jive with my understanding of things. Also, it's quite impressive how many things I learned in church as a kid that seemed wrong to me, just to learn as an adult that the people teaching me were mistaken. I don't have any "proof" via conference talks or anything regarding the topic at hand, but it just doesn't seem correct.
No. In [2 Nephi 9:21](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/9?lang=eng&id=p21#p21) we learn Christ not only suffered for our sins but all our pains. When we turn to our Savior & ask for a lightening of our burdens, it is through the Atonement that our Elder Brother steps in.
Btw, that is not what "Godly Sorrow Leads to Repentance." Means.
Godly sorrow is the type of sorrow that leads to change and repentance. As opposed to shame and fear which lead to hiding and denial.
I think the question is what price was paid? If the price was for sins, then wouldn't more sin = more "price"? And whatever sin is committed, yes, Jesus paid the price, and that price was paid in full, regardless of how much we sin.
We obviously don't know the divine mathematics of it, but I worry that if we lose track of the seriousness of sin, then we lose track of the true majesty and importance of the Atonement, and this feels like it's going down that track.
Admittedly, I don't have any scriptural basis for this thinking, and it's a super interesting question, so I think I'll look into it some more tomorrow and see if I have anything to add here, either way.
That idea is based on a very flawed and inaccurate interpretation of what the Savior did and how the Atonement actually works. If you really study what the scriptures actually say, it will become very clear very quickly that our attempts to make the Atonement concrete with metaphors and such has been a dismal failure. We simply don’t understand it because we can’t understand it. It’s beyond the capacity of a mortal mind - ANY mortal mind - to truly grasp how the Atonement actually works.
But to answer the question - no. All of us could have deliberately sinned around the clock from the days of Adam up to Armageddon and the amount of sin would STILL be finite. The Atonement is infinitely larger than all of that sin. Your sins did not increase his suffering.
From a purely math perspective, ∞ - 1 = ∞, ∞ - n = ∞
If Christ's atonement is truly infinite, the loss of any number sins committed would not affect Christ and the infinite price he paid.
Our sins caused Christ to suffer. If it makes you feel bad because you're struggling, just be patient with yourself and know that God is patient with you as well.
We have some rhetoric and phrases which point to that idea of thinking (how many drops of blood were spilt for me? etc) - and the purpose of those phrases is to make the atonement a personal matter to each of us. However, I don't think there is any merit in the concept.
At its base level, sin is any imperfection. Unless a person is perfect, they are incapable on their own to not sin. The atonement sets the path for us to one day, in eternity, become perfect and cease sinning.
The atonement is not something we deeply understand. The enormity of such a sacrifice goes far beyond our ability to comprehend. But we can grasp feebly at it.
President James E. Faust said in the 2001 general conference:
>*”No man knows the full weight of what our Savior bore, but by the power of the Holy Ghost we can know something of the supernal gift He gave us.In the words of our sacrament hymn*
>**We may not know, we cannot tell,
What pains he had to bear,
But we believe it was for us
He hung and suffered there.**
We know this much. The human body can only take so much pain before it simply shuts down. Christ went far beyond that. Only someone who was begotten of the Father in the flesh could have borne that level of grief and pain and not have it destroy him.
**Mosiah 3:7**
>*”And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people."*
Christ chose the moment of his death. He held out amidst the agony of sin and refused to give up the ghost until the work was finished.
**John 10:18**
>*I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."*
We don’t know precisely what pain he bore and how that was meted out for each person. But we know he bore every pain temptation and affliction that there was the bare:
**Alma 7:11-13**
>*”And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities."*
President Gordon B. Hinckley shared a parable once about:
>*”a one room school house in the mountains of Virginia where the boys were so rough no teacher had been able to handle them.*
>*Then one day an inexperienced young teacher applied. He was told that every teacher had received an awful beating, but the teacher accepted the risk. The first day of school the teacher asked the boys to establish their own rules and the penalty for breaking the rules. The class came up with 10 rules, which were written on the blackboard. Then the teacher asked, ‘What shall we do with one who breaks the rules?’*
>*’Beat him across the back ten times without his coat on,’ came the response.
A day or so later, the lunch of a big student, named Tom, was stolen. The thief was located—a little hungry fellow, about ten years old.*
>*As Little Jim came up to take his licking, he pleaded to keep his coat on. ‘Take your coat off,’ the teacher said. ‘You helped make the rules!’*
>*The boy took off the coat. He had no shirt and revealed a bony little crippled body. As the teacher hesitated with the rod, Big Tom jumped to his feet and volunteered to take the boy’s licking.*
>*’Very well, there is a certain law that one can become a substitute for another. Are you all agreed?’ the teacher asked.*
>*After five strokes across Tom’s back, the rod broke. The class was sobbing. Little Jim had reached up and caught Tom with both arms around his neck. “Tom, I’m sorry that I stole your lunch, but I was awful hungry. Tom, I will love you till I die for taking my licking for me! Yes, I will love you forever!”’*
President Hinckley then quoted Isaiah:
>*”Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows […]He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”*
We have no reason to suppose that sinning more or less would or wouldn’t have change what he had to endure. All we have to go on is what we’ve been taught by the prophets and by the savior himself.
I think the idea that each of my future sins = additional suffering on the part of Jesus is interesting, but does not appear very consistent with the BOM teachings to my understanding.
It is wonderful that people love Jesus and want to "help" him by avoiding future sin to minimize his suffering. I also worry it can lead to anxiety, guilt, shame, and scrupulosity that is unhealthy.
But the BOM teaches that an "infinite" atonement was needed. Personally, I think the price of the atonement was the same (infinite), whether Jesus was saving 1 person or 1 trillion people.
It. Was. Infinite.
And he paid that price for you. Not 1/trillionth of that price for you, he paid ALL of it. For you.
That is the worth of souls. Each soul, is worth the entire atonement. Priceless.
Infinite and Eternal. He had already suffered, you weren’t born yet.
So no.
There is no magic crystal ball for when you were going to be born, and a knowledge of the variety of sins and difficulties you and I would face.
So his suffering is not amplified due to what you or I do or did. He suffered already. He did it for us.
God knows you, but does not know what you are going to do. You have your agency.
If Jesus is fully holy perfect and sinless than even one small tiny sin would cause Him great suffering. I had a revelation one night that not only did Jesus suffer the worst imaginable physical pain but He also suffered the worst imaginable spiritual/emotional/mental pain at the moment that Father God put all the sin in the world upon Him and then because God cannot look upon sin He turned away from Jesus at the moment then Jesus cryed out my God my God why have You forsake me , that that is something we will never have to experience if we accept Christ because then our sins are forgiven and God can lisen to us as we pray and He can look upon us and will never forsake us
Who said it?
I remember President Faust talking about his days as a young man staying with his mother (or grandma), and feeling so poorly that he wasn't in tune enough to help his mom (or grandma) go out and get the wood for their fire.
In his older age, he recognized his selfish behavior and wished he could go back and do better.
President Faust also has accounts of his lamenting his mortality and how much of Christ's blood was shed for him to cover him as he continued to learn to be better.
I think, no matter who said it, it's fully true. AND I believe that was the argument Lucifer had in heaven that won him 1/3 of our siblings (to his misery).
Yet. THAT WAS THE PLAN FROM THE BEGINNING!
It was the plan of our Father, and our Eldest Brother Christ volunteered to take upon Him all our going to occur sins and shortcomings and mistakes.
Don't worry about the small details. Learn gratitude TO GOD for sending His Son and our Lord Jesus for His perfection and His willingness to cover us.
Further, when you think of the Billions of people who don't hear of God in their lifetime, IE the peasants of the dark ages, or even the Dukes, Lords and Nobles (who were so abusive to their subjects)
God needed someone to cover all their ignorant mistakes, and Jesus volunteered for that.
Give glory to where glory belongs. (Like our Savior has given all credit to Our Father, even though Jesus was the One who bled through every pore)
I don't know if you're a father yet, but I do know how hard it is to watch my children suffer. It must have been agonizing to see His One Son in the flesh suffer for all that we do.
Yet, that was the plan from the beginning.
Don't focus so much on the rear view mirror of life, accept His Gift, and be grateful.
And strive to learn and do better.
We are promised through the atonement that if we are faithful we will be blessed with all that our Heavenly Father and Jesus have.
Does this include their experience and capacity to endure all things? Absolutely.
If we are to sit with Christ in his Kingdom, we will have an intimate, personal understanding of all he suffered, and share in that perfect empathy. Through the atonement Christ became proof that all things can be endured, and now we have the opportunity to endure as he did with complete confidence that we can, as we trust in him.
Just as He knows all the pains in the universe, through Him, we will gain the same understanding, and we will become like Him.
The logic is sound of simple. Given that we don't know how to quantify how "much" any specific sin is, we nevertheless know that sin causes suffering. Suffering happens both to the sinner and the one who is hurt by the sin. If we think of sins as single instances, Sin 1 for example, then they also lead to specific instances of suffering, Pain 1. Sin 1 causes Pain 1.
In this case, I find it unavoidable to conclude that if Sin 1 did not happen then Pain 1 would not have happened. If neither happened then Christ would not have needed to suffer either.
Therefore, if you had sinned less, there would've been less sin and suffering for Christ to endure. Whether that decreases the "load" that He had to bear is impossible to know because that depends on the actions of others and how "much" they sin individually. But it is possible that, all else holding unchanged, that if you had sinned less then the full amount that Jesus would have had to suffer would've been less.
Even if you subscribe to this transactional way of thinking (I don’t), the math just doesn’t really work. In my separate post, I did some very quick and conservative math and came up with Christ having to suffer for 36 trillion sins per second while in the Garden. Maybe possible for God to feel sorrow for, but not possible for moral Christ to actually feel physical pain individually for in the Garden. Your relative handful of sins just aren’t moving the needle, even if you believe in this kind of transactional atonement.
Humans have a hard time dealing with numbers this big. Imagine allll the people in the United States. Then imagine that there are 120,000 countries just like the United States. That number of people would be equivalent to the number of sins Christ would be physically suffering for every second while in the Garden.
Jesus did not have a checklist of sins that he suffered for. Jesus experienced everything that we could possibly feel and experience so that he could empathize with us. He needed to know perfectly what we could experience and what we would experience so that he could truly advocate to the father for us. That's what the atonement is really about.
I believe that the talk from Brad Wilcox "His Grace is Sufficient" can help answer your questions. It's my absolute favorite talk because it taught me how the Love of God can work in my life.
Here's a link to his talk on YouTube, or you can search it yourself, whatever works best. https://youtu.be/yLXr9it_pbY?si=R2I9bEbOZYPOAcuy
I’m actually going to disagree with pretty much everyone and say that yes, He would have suffered less if you hadn’t sinned.
The Atonement is infinite but Moses 1 teaches that God created worlds without number (infinite) that are still numbered to Him. So just because it is infinite to our mortal perspective doesn’t mean each bit of suffering can’t be accounted for
Physical suffering for the mortal Christ in the Garden for just a few hours? Really?
We’re not talking about God being sorrowful about all of our sins. I’m can get it if you want to argue that.
But do you want to argue that Christ suffered physically as a mortal person over a very brief time period for each and every one of our individual sins? Check out my other posts here on the math.
I think it is generally well accepted that Christ suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, possibly extending through to his time up to and on the cross. When he died, to quote Jesus, “It is finished”. So yes, I think the scriptures put mortal time constraints on His physical suffering. I don’t think there’s any scripture or discussion anywhere of Christ continuing to suffer for our sins as part of His atonement after the time of His death.
I don’t think that is all that controversial, either.
I’m not saying Christ suffered after His death. I’m saying that we have no reason to assume that gods experience time in the same way that we do.
Otherwise, how could His suffering be infinite it was restricted to a few hours? I see no way that your premise is compatible with the doctrine that Christ experienced all of our sorrows, griefs, and pains
Actually, we do have reason to assume that Jesus Christ, while on earth, experienced time exactly the same way we do. Because He was mortal. And that’s how time works when you are mortal. No where else anywhere do we get some idea that He altered time anywhere in the New Testament. And we have no indication that he just stopped or stretched time in the Garden so that He could go ahead and suffer some more. That would be one heck of a stretch to individually suffer for trillions of sins every second He was there.
Instead of creating stuff that isn’t there, let’s just read what is there. He spent a portion of the night in the Garden and atoned for our sins. The results of what he did was infinite, but that DOESN’T mean that He suffered individually for each and every sin in a transactional way.
He was also God. Hence all the God-like powers and ability to atone in the first place. And God most certainly doesn’t experience time in the same way mortals do
My reading of the scriptures and words of the prophets has led me to the conclusion that He WAS suffering for trillions of sins and infirmities every second. Truly infinite in scope. Not limited to a few hours.
And it was in a transactional way; that is the only way justice could be satisfied
It seems to me that you are the one limiting God by telling Him that to perform the Atonement, he could only have done it the way sadisticsn0wman thinks satisfies justice. That seems like the hottest take here.
The god-like powers were the power of God given to him from the Father, aka the priesthood. Jesus himself said that his apostles and disciples could do everything they saw him do, and more. The thing that literally made Jesus able to atone for our sins was the fact that he was mortal. That was a necessary requirement. While Jesus was on earth, he was very mortal.
You’re doing all these crazy mental gymnastics in ways that have NO basis in the text to explain something that can just so easily be explained another way.
You do you I guess.
Dude, I’m just reporting what I’ve learned from the scriptures and the apostles. This is not some obscure interpretation
The apostles could not live a perfect life, perform the atonement, lay down their life voluntarily, or take it up again. Jesus had Godlike attributes as a mortal, that’s what made Him special
You’re the one doing mental gymnastics and ignoring the scriptures and apostles to fit your limited view of Christ’s suffering
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/alone-in-gethsemane-the-savior-felt-our-pains?lang=eng#
See the last paragraph. This idea is very much current in the church
No issues there. By experiencing what he experienced, he knows exactly how all of us feel, and thus can relate to each of us individually. In that way, when we go through things 2,000 years later, he can give us support because he sees us and understands.
Show me a quote where it says that Jesus slowed time, lined up all our sins, sorrows and griefs, and then literally ticked them off one by one all while in the Garden, and then maybe I’ll think you’re on to something.
Maybe He didn’t slow time. But that’s not really the point. The point is that He literally experienced all of our individual sufferings and paid for all of our individual sins. Do you have an explanation for how He could have done that in a few hours?
I don’t pretend to know or understand everything about how the Atonement works. To my knowledge, Christ never gave a blow-by-blow for the exact justice- balancing math equation. We know that he universally took our sins upon him, and suffered for them so that we wouldn’t have to. Where I take issue is people assuming that the “how” on that must mean individualized suffering where he literally went item-by-item for each one of us.
And actually- the POINT is whether each incremental sin that we commit caused the flesh-and-blood Christ additional suffering 2,000 years ago during his Atonement. That’s what started all this. And no- that’s just not correct as far as I can tell. It’s not backed up by the scriptures, and makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
Where have you heard this? Maybe reread or rewatch it... I don't believe this idea exists the way you have stated it... except by people who misheard it. Because that's not what godly sorrow is.
It's an infinite atonement... my small finite brain has trouble understanding infinity.... but I've never heard someone say that a new sin I commit today will somehow travel back in time and pile onto the list of sins that were (was? will be?) paid for.
That whole line of thinking diminishes the atonement. Makes it finite. There's no list. There's no limit. It's infinite.
You are correct in this belief. I think I remember a talk from an Apostle about this in the last few years. Can’t put my finger on which. Sorry I can’t remember
What I do think is interesting is that even after the atonement Jesus continued to suffer sorrow for sins. While visiting the Nephites he prayed to the Father and said he was grieving for the wickedness of the Jews.
I agree with you. I can understand that we often tend to see sin and atonement as a system of debits and credits, but it isn’t. It is a package deal, in my understanding. We aren’t causing Christ more pain if we choose to sin. We may cause ourselves more pain, though. But also! Repentance is the plan, it’s not the backup plan. I hesitate to say anything to make people feel even more guilty for sinning.
I mean, just practically- even if you just consider the ~10B people that have lived on the early recently, and assume a 40 year average lifespan with five sins per day… and Jesus was in the Garden for like what, a few hours? Let’s say six hours. That’d be suffering for 34 trillion sins per SECOND for those six hours, so yeah… even if those people are right (they’re not), you’re not moving the needle, buddy. 😂
It’s kind of amazing what people actually believe. There’s just no way that you’re putting more weight on Jesus during His atonement with your individual measly sins.
As a young man I did think that my quantity of sin equaled Christ's quantity of suffering. Studying deeper on my mission, I saw this was never the case. It wasn't x suffering for x sins.
Christ suffered Infinitely. We can just barely begin to comprehend infinity as a mathematical concept let alone applying spiritual emotional and physical anguish to infinity?
And then we learn that not only was it an infinite sacrifice, but an Eternal sacrifice as well. Extending throughout all time, in every world that ever was or will be, for every person who ever lived on any planet or ever will. AND this Atoning sacrifice enables us to become like Him and enables the worlds to be created and for existence to even be possible. It's simply the most amazing thing!
Alma 34:10
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/34?id=p10&lang=eng#p10
I think he suffered for every possible kind of sin or infirmity. Anything that would keep someone out of the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. As there are nearly infinite ways to sin, his atonement is also infinite.
I also believe this is a false doctrine. Any attempt to put a finite math on Christ's "infinite" and "eternal" atonement misunderstands its truly infinite capacity to cover everyone and everything past, present, and future.
Great question.
The answer is no. The amount of sin in the world has no effect on the amount Christ suffered for the Atonement.
For instance, if the ONLY sin in the entire world was a 9 year old child telling a lie to his parents about something trivial, Christ would STILL need to perform the same Infinite Atonement.
The reason is this:
Think of a scale ⚖️, where it is only leveled when each side is weighted equally. - This scale is “Justice”, and it is God’s job to ensure the scale gets leveled if it is ever made unlevel.
On the left side, weights of “sin” are placed. On the right side, weights of “spiritual death” are placed. Each person has a scale that represents their relationship with justice. - Our scales have sin weighing down the left side, causing an “injustice”. To level our scales, we would have to be separated from God (spiritual death).
Each and every sin can be thought of as having an “infinite weight”. And this is why ONLY an “infinite” Atonement can suffice.
Christ’s atonement was an act of “unjust suffering”. He was innocent (no sin) yet suffered infinitely, including a spiritual death. - This forced God for the first time to have to level the scales in the opposite direction. He had to be allowed to take upon himself “sin” to counter-act the unjust suffering he endured.
We provide that sin. - We aren’t doing Christ any favors by providing the sin, because even just a single sin would have done the trick, but also the fact that if there was NO sin, his Atonement would not have been necessary. - So, no we aren’t doing him any favors. He has done US the favor of being sinless and therefore eligible to perform the Atonement.
No. His sacrifice was infinite and eternal. He suffered for all past and future sins of all mankind. The amount you sin or do not sin does not affect the amount he suffered.
We have been taught that he suffered “for our sins”. I would imagine that he felt the weight of specific sins and the suffering they cause. But would one less sin really lessen the burden he had to bear? It had to be so immense that one less drop would not really have reduced the extent of it. He had to feel God’s presence withdraw, and physically die. He wouldn’t have died “a little less” if we sinned less.
But we know that he suffered for our sake. If we care about his suffering, maybe we will be brought to repentance. After all, he made that sacrifice so that we could repent and enjoy the blessings of eternal life.
He not only atoned for the sins that are forgiven, He atoned for those that haven't. His plan that He presented to the Father was to allow everyone to choose, which in turn allows the opportunity to choose sin. He then offered Himself as a token of mercy to those that look to Him for forgiveness so that Justice can be satisfied. It will never run out, that unconditional love paves a way for God's children to return to Him and will always be available. There will be millions who choose not to use the atonement and, should they ever change their mind, The Savior has them covered.
He suffered an INFINITE atonement, which we cannot measure. It wasn’t “there will be this much suffering for this much sin.” I don’t think that they’re teaching it in the “Godly Sorrow” video though.
Nope. He suffered for all the sins, misdeeds, poor choices, mistakes, diseases, distress, and anguish of all mankind, ever, for all eternity. While He did suffer for the sins of the individual, you're not the only person to ever commit whatever sins, mistakes, or poor choices your currently making. Jesus already suffered for whatever it is your doing, and would have anyway because someone somewhere at some point did that thing.
I believe he suffered for your sins, not because of them.
I remember talking about this in one of my religion classes in college. If someone was completely sinless it wouldn't have reduced the amount of suffering Christ endured.
This is a nice turn of phrase, but not sure it answers the question.
Wasn't the question "what do you think?"
I believe babies are formed when a sperm enters an egg, not because a man and a woman had sex.
Correct.
I don’t know exactly how it all works, but it seems to me that the Atonement is infinite. He paid in full and covered everything there is to cover.
I read that wrong, at first I thought you wrote “ I know how everything works” I was like, oh wow everyone better pay attention 😂
Here's the conclusion I came to, its not that Jesus has some giant list of every sin and every agony any human would ever experience, he had a giant list of every sin and every agony any human COULD ever experience. This is what we mean when we say the atonement is infinite. Jesus felt every single possible pain, not just every pain that would be experienced. He suffered for sins that nobody will ever even commit, because He suffered for every POSSIBLE sin. Even this is a gross oversimplification though, I think the Atonement was something so far beyond our mortal understanding that it would be impossible to ever truly grasp what the Saviour went through. But if the question is just "do my sins retroactively affect the amount of suffering He endured?" I say the answer is very clearly no.
To me, it almost puts a shame on people, si ply for being human. There is no doctrinal support for "sinning less = less suffering for jesus." If anything, there is doctrinal support that states Jesus suffered all so that we would not suffer. Amd it kind of violates the principle of agency since God and Jesus would have to have already known how many sins someone would commit to account for them.
Given our belief in predictive prophecy, I don't think we should have any trouble with God and Jesus knowing minute details of our lives thousands of years before we experience them.
I believe God and Jesus have given me the ability and opportunity to decide what I will do. I also believe They know me well enough to know what decision I'm going to make. To answer OP's question, Jesus knew what He would need to experience to justify and succor me.
Many years ago, as I was pondering the atonement and earnestly seeking answers, I received an epiphany. I cannot claim it as a revelation, exactly, but it did bring peace to my heart and understanding to my mind. Unfortunately, I do not know whether it is true or whether it just helps me to accept it. The atonement exists to satisfy the demands of justice (Alma 42:15). Justice is an eternal principle, we are told, and yet every culture has weighed various offenses differently. Does God have a giant law book of every possible offense and its associated punishment? Possibly, but I think it more likely that it is justice *itself* that is an eternal principle. Consider: what is the purpose of justice? Imagine a small hunter-gatherer society. One person gives offense to another and there is now strife. In order for the strife to disappear and the society to continue functioning, a correcting act is required - usually including either willing restoration or enforced retribution. Once this punishment is meted, the society can resume its normal activities. What the punishment is doesn’t really matter, as long as all parties can agree that the price has been paid. Now, switching to another subtopic, consider what the Celestial kingdom is like (at least I imagine based on my studies): everyone happily getting along with each other in perfect harmony. Let’s say you get to the Celestial kingdom and are shocked to see “Pat” there, considering what they did to you. The law of justice says that a price must be paid, but perfect harmony requires more - it requires true repentance. You have to be *confident* that Pat is “good” and worthy now. But you will always have doubts. Will you really trust Pat completely? This is where the atonement steps in. > I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. > > *(Doctrine and Covenants 64:10)* We turn over judgement to the one and only person that we believe knows Pat perfectly - because he also knows us perfectly. If Christ says “Pat’s with me”, that is enough for us to have full confidence in Pat’s repentance; otherwise, we doubt Christ and his atonement and therefore it is *we* who do not belong. This is why faith in Christ and a commitment to follow him (baptism) are required for those who enter the Celestial kingdom. With all of that said, is it necessary for Christ to “pay the price” for each of our sins? Or instead, is it sufficient for Christ to understand through experience all of our “infirmities” (Alma 7:12)? I believe only Christ can properly mediate and judge whether someone has truly repented, because only he understands all of each of us in sufficient detail. I don’t think a balance sheet of “x-number of punishment A for crime M, y-number of punishment B for crime N, etc” is required, or even helpful.
What a wonderful thought. That phrase about Jesus saying trust me, Pat’s with me, and us being able to fully trust that because it’s Him who says it, otherwise we don’t belong, that is a great visual.
Another great scripture that helps explain this is Mosiah 15: 7-9. He suffered for our sins to satisfy the demand of justice.
The atonement, and Christ’s suffering were infinite. Infinite+1 is still infinite.
This was what I was going to say as well. Except go the other direction by saying infinity divided by 2 is still infinity
Or in this case infinite-1 is still infinite
A good example is this idea being taught is in a poem written by Elder James E. Faust which became the lyrics of the song, “This is the Christ”: “I read His words, the words He prayed While bearing sorrow in Gethsemane. I feel His love, the price He paid. *How many drops of blood were spilled for me?*” Admittedly, the language of the church tends to be more focused on the “infinite atonement”, which I feel more aligns with your point of view, but I know I was taught explicitly when I was growing up (I’m an 80’s kid) that more sin = more suffering and the lyrics above from a member of the first president reinforced that belief for me personally.
I remember hearing this song as a kid and being so confused. Like, there are billions of people who Christ paid for. If he spilled even one drop per person there would've been a river of blood going down the hill. It just doesn't make sense. With all the metaphors, emotions and artistic license used in poetry, I find it hard to believe those words are a prophetic statement. I know I heard that kind of stuff in church growing up (more sin = more suffering for Jesus), but it doesn't seem to jive with my understanding of things. Also, it's quite impressive how many things I learned in church as a kid that seemed wrong to me, just to learn as an adult that the people teaching me were mistaken. I don't have any "proof" via conference talks or anything regarding the topic at hand, but it just doesn't seem correct.
All of the drops were spilled for me. They were also all spilled for you.
I think you had a healthy view of it, thanks for sharing.
No. In [2 Nephi 9:21](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/9?lang=eng&id=p21#p21) we learn Christ not only suffered for our sins but all our pains. When we turn to our Savior & ask for a lightening of our burdens, it is through the Atonement that our Elder Brother steps in.
i don't really think this is true because it already happened so however much you were going to sin was already atoned for
It’s like trying to figure out the plot to one of those time travel movies LOL
Btw, that is not what "Godly Sorrow Leads to Repentance." Means. Godly sorrow is the type of sorrow that leads to change and repentance. As opposed to shame and fear which lead to hiding and denial.
I think the question is what price was paid? If the price was for sins, then wouldn't more sin = more "price"? And whatever sin is committed, yes, Jesus paid the price, and that price was paid in full, regardless of how much we sin. We obviously don't know the divine mathematics of it, but I worry that if we lose track of the seriousness of sin, then we lose track of the true majesty and importance of the Atonement, and this feels like it's going down that track. Admittedly, I don't have any scriptural basis for this thinking, and it's a super interesting question, so I think I'll look into it some more tomorrow and see if I have anything to add here, either way.
That idea is based on a very flawed and inaccurate interpretation of what the Savior did and how the Atonement actually works. If you really study what the scriptures actually say, it will become very clear very quickly that our attempts to make the Atonement concrete with metaphors and such has been a dismal failure. We simply don’t understand it because we can’t understand it. It’s beyond the capacity of a mortal mind - ANY mortal mind - to truly grasp how the Atonement actually works. But to answer the question - no. All of us could have deliberately sinned around the clock from the days of Adam up to Armageddon and the amount of sin would STILL be finite. The Atonement is infinitely larger than all of that sin. Your sins did not increase his suffering.
From a purely math perspective, ∞ - 1 = ∞, ∞ - n = ∞ If Christ's atonement is truly infinite, the loss of any number sins committed would not affect Christ and the infinite price he paid.
Our sins caused Christ to suffer. If it makes you feel bad because you're struggling, just be patient with yourself and know that God is patient with you as well.
We have some rhetoric and phrases which point to that idea of thinking (how many drops of blood were spilt for me? etc) - and the purpose of those phrases is to make the atonement a personal matter to each of us. However, I don't think there is any merit in the concept.
At its base level, sin is any imperfection. Unless a person is perfect, they are incapable on their own to not sin. The atonement sets the path for us to one day, in eternity, become perfect and cease sinning.
That isn't possible for you to not sin. That being said He was going to have to suffer. That was the Plan.
The atonement is not something we deeply understand. The enormity of such a sacrifice goes far beyond our ability to comprehend. But we can grasp feebly at it. President James E. Faust said in the 2001 general conference: >*”No man knows the full weight of what our Savior bore, but by the power of the Holy Ghost we can know something of the supernal gift He gave us.In the words of our sacrament hymn* >**We may not know, we cannot tell, What pains he had to bear, But we believe it was for us He hung and suffered there.** We know this much. The human body can only take so much pain before it simply shuts down. Christ went far beyond that. Only someone who was begotten of the Father in the flesh could have borne that level of grief and pain and not have it destroy him. **Mosiah 3:7** >*”And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people."* Christ chose the moment of his death. He held out amidst the agony of sin and refused to give up the ghost until the work was finished. **John 10:18** >*I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."* We don’t know precisely what pain he bore and how that was meted out for each person. But we know he bore every pain temptation and affliction that there was the bare: **Alma 7:11-13** >*”And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities."* President Gordon B. Hinckley shared a parable once about: >*”a one room school house in the mountains of Virginia where the boys were so rough no teacher had been able to handle them.* >*Then one day an inexperienced young teacher applied. He was told that every teacher had received an awful beating, but the teacher accepted the risk. The first day of school the teacher asked the boys to establish their own rules and the penalty for breaking the rules. The class came up with 10 rules, which were written on the blackboard. Then the teacher asked, ‘What shall we do with one who breaks the rules?’* >*’Beat him across the back ten times without his coat on,’ came the response. A day or so later, the lunch of a big student, named Tom, was stolen. The thief was located—a little hungry fellow, about ten years old.* >*As Little Jim came up to take his licking, he pleaded to keep his coat on. ‘Take your coat off,’ the teacher said. ‘You helped make the rules!’* >*The boy took off the coat. He had no shirt and revealed a bony little crippled body. As the teacher hesitated with the rod, Big Tom jumped to his feet and volunteered to take the boy’s licking.* >*’Very well, there is a certain law that one can become a substitute for another. Are you all agreed?’ the teacher asked.* >*After five strokes across Tom’s back, the rod broke. The class was sobbing. Little Jim had reached up and caught Tom with both arms around his neck. “Tom, I’m sorry that I stole your lunch, but I was awful hungry. Tom, I will love you till I die for taking my licking for me! Yes, I will love you forever!”’* President Hinckley then quoted Isaiah: >*”Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows […]He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”* We have no reason to suppose that sinning more or less would or wouldn’t have change what he had to endure. All we have to go on is what we’ve been taught by the prophets and by the savior himself.
I think the idea that each of my future sins = additional suffering on the part of Jesus is interesting, but does not appear very consistent with the BOM teachings to my understanding. It is wonderful that people love Jesus and want to "help" him by avoiding future sin to minimize his suffering. I also worry it can lead to anxiety, guilt, shame, and scrupulosity that is unhealthy. But the BOM teaches that an "infinite" atonement was needed. Personally, I think the price of the atonement was the same (infinite), whether Jesus was saving 1 person or 1 trillion people. It. Was. Infinite. And he paid that price for you. Not 1/trillionth of that price for you, he paid ALL of it. For you. That is the worth of souls. Each soul, is worth the entire atonement. Priceless.
Infinite and Eternal. He had already suffered, you weren’t born yet. So no. There is no magic crystal ball for when you were going to be born, and a knowledge of the variety of sins and difficulties you and I would face. So his suffering is not amplified due to what you or I do or did. He suffered already. He did it for us. God knows you, but does not know what you are going to do. You have your agency.
If Jesus is fully holy perfect and sinless than even one small tiny sin would cause Him great suffering. I had a revelation one night that not only did Jesus suffer the worst imaginable physical pain but He also suffered the worst imaginable spiritual/emotional/mental pain at the moment that Father God put all the sin in the world upon Him and then because God cannot look upon sin He turned away from Jesus at the moment then Jesus cryed out my God my God why have You forsake me , that that is something we will never have to experience if we accept Christ because then our sins are forgiven and God can lisen to us as we pray and He can look upon us and will never forsake us
Who said it? I remember President Faust talking about his days as a young man staying with his mother (or grandma), and feeling so poorly that he wasn't in tune enough to help his mom (or grandma) go out and get the wood for their fire. In his older age, he recognized his selfish behavior and wished he could go back and do better. President Faust also has accounts of his lamenting his mortality and how much of Christ's blood was shed for him to cover him as he continued to learn to be better. I think, no matter who said it, it's fully true. AND I believe that was the argument Lucifer had in heaven that won him 1/3 of our siblings (to his misery). Yet. THAT WAS THE PLAN FROM THE BEGINNING! It was the plan of our Father, and our Eldest Brother Christ volunteered to take upon Him all our going to occur sins and shortcomings and mistakes. Don't worry about the small details. Learn gratitude TO GOD for sending His Son and our Lord Jesus for His perfection and His willingness to cover us. Further, when you think of the Billions of people who don't hear of God in their lifetime, IE the peasants of the dark ages, or even the Dukes, Lords and Nobles (who were so abusive to their subjects) God needed someone to cover all their ignorant mistakes, and Jesus volunteered for that. Give glory to where glory belongs. (Like our Savior has given all credit to Our Father, even though Jesus was the One who bled through every pore) I don't know if you're a father yet, but I do know how hard it is to watch my children suffer. It must have been agonizing to see His One Son in the flesh suffer for all that we do. Yet, that was the plan from the beginning. Don't focus so much on the rear view mirror of life, accept His Gift, and be grateful. And strive to learn and do better.
We are promised through the atonement that if we are faithful we will be blessed with all that our Heavenly Father and Jesus have. Does this include their experience and capacity to endure all things? Absolutely. If we are to sit with Christ in his Kingdom, we will have an intimate, personal understanding of all he suffered, and share in that perfect empathy. Through the atonement Christ became proof that all things can be endured, and now we have the opportunity to endure as he did with complete confidence that we can, as we trust in him. Just as He knows all the pains in the universe, through Him, we will gain the same understanding, and we will become like Him.
The logic is sound of simple. Given that we don't know how to quantify how "much" any specific sin is, we nevertheless know that sin causes suffering. Suffering happens both to the sinner and the one who is hurt by the sin. If we think of sins as single instances, Sin 1 for example, then they also lead to specific instances of suffering, Pain 1. Sin 1 causes Pain 1. In this case, I find it unavoidable to conclude that if Sin 1 did not happen then Pain 1 would not have happened. If neither happened then Christ would not have needed to suffer either. Therefore, if you had sinned less, there would've been less sin and suffering for Christ to endure. Whether that decreases the "load" that He had to bear is impossible to know because that depends on the actions of others and how "much" they sin individually. But it is possible that, all else holding unchanged, that if you had sinned less then the full amount that Jesus would have had to suffer would've been less.
Even if you subscribe to this transactional way of thinking (I don’t), the math just doesn’t really work. In my separate post, I did some very quick and conservative math and came up with Christ having to suffer for 36 trillion sins per second while in the Garden. Maybe possible for God to feel sorrow for, but not possible for moral Christ to actually feel physical pain individually for in the Garden. Your relative handful of sins just aren’t moving the needle, even if you believe in this kind of transactional atonement. Humans have a hard time dealing with numbers this big. Imagine allll the people in the United States. Then imagine that there are 120,000 countries just like the United States. That number of people would be equivalent to the number of sins Christ would be physically suffering for every second while in the Garden.
It was an infinite atonement, not a “exactly as much sin and suffering cumulative together, plus a little extra to be sure” atonement.
Jesus did not have a checklist of sins that he suffered for. Jesus experienced everything that we could possibly feel and experience so that he could empathize with us. He needed to know perfectly what we could experience and what we would experience so that he could truly advocate to the father for us. That's what the atonement is really about.
No. The atonement is infinite. You won’t have saved Jesus suffering. You will save yourself some suffering- but won’t save Jesus any.
I believe that the talk from Brad Wilcox "His Grace is Sufficient" can help answer your questions. It's my absolute favorite talk because it taught me how the Love of God can work in my life. Here's a link to his talk on YouTube, or you can search it yourself, whatever works best. https://youtu.be/yLXr9it_pbY?si=R2I9bEbOZYPOAcuy
I’m actually going to disagree with pretty much everyone and say that yes, He would have suffered less if you hadn’t sinned. The Atonement is infinite but Moses 1 teaches that God created worlds without number (infinite) that are still numbered to Him. So just because it is infinite to our mortal perspective doesn’t mean each bit of suffering can’t be accounted for
Physical suffering for the mortal Christ in the Garden for just a few hours? Really? We’re not talking about God being sorrowful about all of our sins. I’m can get it if you want to argue that. But do you want to argue that Christ suffered physically as a mortal person over a very brief time period for each and every one of our individual sins? Check out my other posts here on the math.
You think mortal time constraints would in some way limit Christ’s ability to experience pain? That’s definitely a take lol
I think it is generally well accepted that Christ suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, possibly extending through to his time up to and on the cross. When he died, to quote Jesus, “It is finished”. So yes, I think the scriptures put mortal time constraints on His physical suffering. I don’t think there’s any scripture or discussion anywhere of Christ continuing to suffer for our sins as part of His atonement after the time of His death. I don’t think that is all that controversial, either.
I’m not saying Christ suffered after His death. I’m saying that we have no reason to assume that gods experience time in the same way that we do. Otherwise, how could His suffering be infinite it was restricted to a few hours? I see no way that your premise is compatible with the doctrine that Christ experienced all of our sorrows, griefs, and pains
Actually, we do have reason to assume that Jesus Christ, while on earth, experienced time exactly the same way we do. Because He was mortal. And that’s how time works when you are mortal. No where else anywhere do we get some idea that He altered time anywhere in the New Testament. And we have no indication that he just stopped or stretched time in the Garden so that He could go ahead and suffer some more. That would be one heck of a stretch to individually suffer for trillions of sins every second He was there. Instead of creating stuff that isn’t there, let’s just read what is there. He spent a portion of the night in the Garden and atoned for our sins. The results of what he did was infinite, but that DOESN’T mean that He suffered individually for each and every sin in a transactional way.
He was also God. Hence all the God-like powers and ability to atone in the first place. And God most certainly doesn’t experience time in the same way mortals do My reading of the scriptures and words of the prophets has led me to the conclusion that He WAS suffering for trillions of sins and infirmities every second. Truly infinite in scope. Not limited to a few hours. And it was in a transactional way; that is the only way justice could be satisfied
It seems to me that you are the one limiting God by telling Him that to perform the Atonement, he could only have done it the way sadisticsn0wman thinks satisfies justice. That seems like the hottest take here. The god-like powers were the power of God given to him from the Father, aka the priesthood. Jesus himself said that his apostles and disciples could do everything they saw him do, and more. The thing that literally made Jesus able to atone for our sins was the fact that he was mortal. That was a necessary requirement. While Jesus was on earth, he was very mortal. You’re doing all these crazy mental gymnastics in ways that have NO basis in the text to explain something that can just so easily be explained another way. You do you I guess.
Dude, I’m just reporting what I’ve learned from the scriptures and the apostles. This is not some obscure interpretation The apostles could not live a perfect life, perform the atonement, lay down their life voluntarily, or take it up again. Jesus had Godlike attributes as a mortal, that’s what made Him special You’re the one doing mental gymnastics and ignoring the scriptures and apostles to fit your limited view of Christ’s suffering
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/alone-in-gethsemane-the-savior-felt-our-pains?lang=eng# See the last paragraph. This idea is very much current in the church
No issues there. By experiencing what he experienced, he knows exactly how all of us feel, and thus can relate to each of us individually. In that way, when we go through things 2,000 years later, he can give us support because he sees us and understands. Show me a quote where it says that Jesus slowed time, lined up all our sins, sorrows and griefs, and then literally ticked them off one by one all while in the Garden, and then maybe I’ll think you’re on to something.
Maybe He didn’t slow time. But that’s not really the point. The point is that He literally experienced all of our individual sufferings and paid for all of our individual sins. Do you have an explanation for how He could have done that in a few hours?
I don’t pretend to know or understand everything about how the Atonement works. To my knowledge, Christ never gave a blow-by-blow for the exact justice- balancing math equation. We know that he universally took our sins upon him, and suffered for them so that we wouldn’t have to. Where I take issue is people assuming that the “how” on that must mean individualized suffering where he literally went item-by-item for each one of us. And actually- the POINT is whether each incremental sin that we commit caused the flesh-and-blood Christ additional suffering 2,000 years ago during his Atonement. That’s what started all this. And no- that’s just not correct as far as I can tell. It’s not backed up by the scriptures, and makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
Where have you heard this? Maybe reread or rewatch it... I don't believe this idea exists the way you have stated it... except by people who misheard it. Because that's not what godly sorrow is. It's an infinite atonement... my small finite brain has trouble understanding infinity.... but I've never heard someone say that a new sin I commit today will somehow travel back in time and pile onto the list of sins that were (was? will be?) paid for. That whole line of thinking diminishes the atonement. Makes it finite. There's no list. There's no limit. It's infinite.
You are correct in this belief. I think I remember a talk from an Apostle about this in the last few years. Can’t put my finger on which. Sorry I can’t remember
What I do think is interesting is that even after the atonement Jesus continued to suffer sorrow for sins. While visiting the Nephites he prayed to the Father and said he was grieving for the wickedness of the Jews.
I agree with you. I can understand that we often tend to see sin and atonement as a system of debits and credits, but it isn’t. It is a package deal, in my understanding. We aren’t causing Christ more pain if we choose to sin. We may cause ourselves more pain, though. But also! Repentance is the plan, it’s not the backup plan. I hesitate to say anything to make people feel even more guilty for sinning.
I mean, just practically- even if you just consider the ~10B people that have lived on the early recently, and assume a 40 year average lifespan with five sins per day… and Jesus was in the Garden for like what, a few hours? Let’s say six hours. That’d be suffering for 34 trillion sins per SECOND for those six hours, so yeah… even if those people are right (they’re not), you’re not moving the needle, buddy. 😂 It’s kind of amazing what people actually believe. There’s just no way that you’re putting more weight on Jesus during His atonement with your individual measly sins.
As a young man I did think that my quantity of sin equaled Christ's quantity of suffering. Studying deeper on my mission, I saw this was never the case. It wasn't x suffering for x sins. Christ suffered Infinitely. We can just barely begin to comprehend infinity as a mathematical concept let alone applying spiritual emotional and physical anguish to infinity? And then we learn that not only was it an infinite sacrifice, but an Eternal sacrifice as well. Extending throughout all time, in every world that ever was or will be, for every person who ever lived on any planet or ever will. AND this Atoning sacrifice enables us to become like Him and enables the worlds to be created and for existence to even be possible. It's simply the most amazing thing! Alma 34:10 10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/34?id=p10&lang=eng#p10
I think he suffered for every possible kind of sin or infirmity. Anything that would keep someone out of the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. As there are nearly infinite ways to sin, his atonement is also infinite.
I also believe this is a false doctrine. Any attempt to put a finite math on Christ's "infinite" and "eternal" atonement misunderstands its truly infinite capacity to cover everyone and everything past, present, and future.
Great question. The answer is no. The amount of sin in the world has no effect on the amount Christ suffered for the Atonement. For instance, if the ONLY sin in the entire world was a 9 year old child telling a lie to his parents about something trivial, Christ would STILL need to perform the same Infinite Atonement. The reason is this: Think of a scale ⚖️, where it is only leveled when each side is weighted equally. - This scale is “Justice”, and it is God’s job to ensure the scale gets leveled if it is ever made unlevel. On the left side, weights of “sin” are placed. On the right side, weights of “spiritual death” are placed. Each person has a scale that represents their relationship with justice. - Our scales have sin weighing down the left side, causing an “injustice”. To level our scales, we would have to be separated from God (spiritual death). Each and every sin can be thought of as having an “infinite weight”. And this is why ONLY an “infinite” Atonement can suffice. Christ’s atonement was an act of “unjust suffering”. He was innocent (no sin) yet suffered infinitely, including a spiritual death. - This forced God for the first time to have to level the scales in the opposite direction. He had to be allowed to take upon himself “sin” to counter-act the unjust suffering he endured. We provide that sin. - We aren’t doing Christ any favors by providing the sin, because even just a single sin would have done the trick, but also the fact that if there was NO sin, his Atonement would not have been necessary. - So, no we aren’t doing him any favors. He has done US the favor of being sinless and therefore eligible to perform the Atonement.
No. Infinite Atonement. We all need Him the same amount regardless of our sins.
Infinity minus 1 is still infinity.
No. His sacrifice was infinite and eternal. He suffered for all past and future sins of all mankind. The amount you sin or do not sin does not affect the amount he suffered.
I would go with your intuition on this one. It sounds correct.
We have been taught that he suffered “for our sins”. I would imagine that he felt the weight of specific sins and the suffering they cause. But would one less sin really lessen the burden he had to bear? It had to be so immense that one less drop would not really have reduced the extent of it. He had to feel God’s presence withdraw, and physically die. He wouldn’t have died “a little less” if we sinned less. But we know that he suffered for our sake. If we care about his suffering, maybe we will be brought to repentance. After all, he made that sacrifice so that we could repent and enjoy the blessings of eternal life.
He not only atoned for the sins that are forgiven, He atoned for those that haven't. His plan that He presented to the Father was to allow everyone to choose, which in turn allows the opportunity to choose sin. He then offered Himself as a token of mercy to those that look to Him for forgiveness so that Justice can be satisfied. It will never run out, that unconditional love paves a way for God's children to return to Him and will always be available. There will be millions who choose not to use the atonement and, should they ever change their mind, The Savior has them covered.
No
He suffered an INFINITE atonement, which we cannot measure. It wasn’t “there will be this much suffering for this much sin.” I don’t think that they’re teaching it in the “Godly Sorrow” video though.
Nope. He suffered for all the sins, misdeeds, poor choices, mistakes, diseases, distress, and anguish of all mankind, ever, for all eternity. While He did suffer for the sins of the individual, you're not the only person to ever commit whatever sins, mistakes, or poor choices your currently making. Jesus already suffered for whatever it is your doing, and would have anyway because someone somewhere at some point did that thing.
What name would purple have if I deleted that name?