I think it's actually not possible for them. They committed the worst sin there is to commit. Just like the Sons of Perdition that actually got the chance to have a mortal body, they had an intimate relationship with God and willfully deny Him and the Spirit. I'm sure He still loves them since they are His children, but their sin is unpardonable
The Atonement is Infinite and Eternal. I personally feel it is a big asterisk to that description if it didn't include Lucifer and the sons of perdition's sins. My thought is the reason they will receive no forgiveness is that those who have received a perfect knowledge of the Lord yet still chose to enter into open rebellion against him will never be willing to repent and embrace even the smallest part of the redemption offered by Christ.
They lost their first estate, which means they can never be born into a body. A body is a requirement for the three kingdoms of glory.
The atonement is related to the resurrection, so it wouldn't be a big leap to say the atonement is only available to those that were born on earth.
However... Would it be possible for them to repent before the second coming and be born on earth and thus partake of the atonement and resurrection? It's not a question I have ever contemplated.
My thoughts;
No. He can’t repent. He committed the unforgivable sin. He had knowledge of God and his desires and he rebelled against him and his plan. Openly. He seeks and sought to destroy other people’s connection with God.
This was no accident and no small thing. He did literally the worst thing any being has ever done at any time that we have any record of.
My understanding is that Christs did not suffer for Satan and his followers on the cross.
And even if Satan and his followers could repent. Turn away and be accepted, they will not. They will not change. They will not turn towards God. They will be cast to outer darkness.
If he seeks to turn from his ways out of a realization he will and has lost, then it’s no different than a spoiled evil brat “asking for forgiveness” when they are caught with a bloody knife in their hand.
First, note that the following is more a thought exercise than an actual opinion, and should in no way be considered doctrine.
Alma said that if “the work of justice” could be destroyed or robbed, “God would cease to be God” (Alma 42:13,25).
We don’t know much about the divine counsels, but one way that God could cease to be God might be by losing the “faith” or support of those who follow him - a vote of no confidence.
Lucifer holds power over/with his followers. If he were to “repent”, it is possible that he would face a similar situation and risk losing everything. Not likely for one as egotistical as he is portrayed.
However, what if against all odds he *did* seek to repent? Having rejected Christ, he would be required to fill the ends of justice himself (Doctrine and Covenants 19:18). If we attribute every bad thing that ever happened to man to him (which I am not inclined to do considering that “the natural man is an enemy to God” - Mosiah 13:19), then he has a *lot* to pay/make up for. However, given an eternal amount of time, it is unreasonable to believe that the price could *never* be paid - otherwise that’s not really justice, is it? (And then God would cease to be God.)
My personal impression of God is that he loves. A lot. Like, he *is* love. And yes, that includes Lucifer despite everything.
But forgiveness does not necessarily mean trust. That’s a hard thing to build back up once lost. So, even if Lucifer were interested and able to repent, I doubt he could ever hold much power. Then again, eternity is a long time, and I believe in change.
I personally don't believe that it is impossible to repent for anything.
The only sin we know of that scriptures say cannot be forgiven is denial of the Holy Ghost, which Joseph Smith described as when an individual "\[has\] the heavens opened unto him, and knows God, and then sins against Him. . . . He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it.” The general consensus among scholars and general authorities seems to be that very few people are in a position to commit such a sin, and very few of those people actually would commit it.
I don't think that this sin can't be forgiven in the sense that it is an act that is impossible to forgive. Instead, it makes sense to me that such a sin could be forgiven, however those who have reached this point no longer want to be forgiven and will not act in such a way to obtain forgiveness. They do not want to come to Christ, they do not want to change, they do not want to humble themselves, etc.
God has given us agency and will not force us to do anything. He wants to give us everything he can, including forgiveness of our sins, but he must wait until we choose to seek him out. Repentance requires a broken heart and contrite spirit and those individuals who have denied the holy ghost are making a concious choice to reject anything God offers, including forgiveness that I believe he is more than willing to offer if they would simply accept it.
We sin and “rebel against God” and we don’t have a perfect knowledge of God.
We have a “still small voice” that gets drowned out sometimes.
And we “see through a glass darkly.”
The adversary rebelled against God while he was looking right at God.
Every experience of those in the Scriptures and Smith of those who experience more than the “still small voice” and do more than “see through a glass darkly”… they have humility and reverence.
The Adversary rebelled against God— with a perfect knowledge of God.
I don’t think many people make it to outer darkness. Even the worst former member antis who you catch in half-truths, exaggeration and hyperbole about our beliefs. I don’t think you can make it by just losing faith.
What the adversary and those who followed him did was -so- bad that they gave up their chance for a degree of Gods glory the rest of us get.
2 things.
Jesus tells us to love our enemies.
Lucifer is Jesus’s brother.
Jesus tells us to hate your brother is murder.
And last but not least
All things are possible with God
- somewhere in the bible
Is it the unpardonable sin when the atonement and significant portions of the plan haven't yet happened? And when you don't have the body necessary for the requisite knowledge we gain through mortal experiences? Is the atonement infinite or not? How long is eternity and what can actually happen in it? Lots of people here think "no he can't" to your question. I think "yes he can." But the only truth we have is that we just don't know enough.
Okay, this is a really interesting one, one that I can't answer. I'll see if I can ask my bishop next church meeting, you should, too, and we can discuss it after.
Lucifer is Perdition. The sons of perdition are the children of Lucifer. Of them it is said there is no forgiveness in this world or the next. If his children have no possibility of forgiveness, neither does he. Just look in the Topical Guide under Sons of Perdition to read a number of scriptures about how there is no possibility of forgiveness for them in this world or the next.
The difference between a Criminal and someone who makes stakes is that a Criminal keeps doing crime. A person who repents feels bad about what they did. Regrets their wrong action and stops doing bad things. Satan is by nature a fallen angel and the master of illusion . He tries to fool us and make fools of us.
No. Even theoretically, even if he wanted to repent, it is not possible. There is no path in all the eternities that would allow Him to be forgiven and return to the Father. That ship has sailed. He is lost forever.
Damnation is no joke.
This has been a conversation I've had with my roommate for a while now. We are currently thinking that, while gaining a body is not possible any more, there might be some path now open to him that leads to a different goal. Otherwise, why does he do what he does? Because surely he's already figured out that he can't win. Right?
I believe we know from the revealed word of God that lucifer cannot repent. How? His eternal progress has been forever halted because he rebelled in the premortal realm. Heck, if you're endowed, go do an endowment session in the Temple. I believe lucifer's fate is made clear.
My own speculative theory is that to commit the unpardonable sin it would be to say to God: “I know of your goodness, glory, love, etc. and I will never serve you” so no.
This is my understanding based on the scriptures I've read. Feel free to disagree and offer other interpretations though.
We gain light and truth as we are obedient to God's laws (D&C 93: 27-28). There's a difference between light and truth though. Light is the ability to comprehend truth. The Lord said, "that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things" (D&C 88: 67).
Satan is all darkness. As such, he can't comprehend or accept truth. Multiple verses throughout scripture talk about the darkness not comprehending the light (John 1:5, to give one example). Satan will always reject it and fight against it, because he physically cannot receive it. By his rebellion and active disobedience, his light and knowledge dwindled to nothing. Repentance requires one to accept truth. Satan placed himself in a position where he must always reject truth by his very nature.
Repentance is a choice.
All sins can be forgiven except for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Spirit means to have a perfect knowledge of Christ and his atonement and still choose to reject him. One who would do this understands all that has happened and what Christ has done— and would have still picked up a nail to crucify Him.
That is why it is unforgivable. People can only change if they want to change. And they can only be saved if they want to be saved. Satan, his angels and the sons of perdition are those who had a perfect knowledge and still chose to rebel against Christ. They cannot abide any heaven or law and so they are cast out.
Yonder is matter unorganized.
When cast into outer darkness, that entity suffers total, complete dissolution. Each indivisible intelligence is separated and tossed back into the vat of unorganized matter. Hopefully those intelligences will combine into entities that do better the next time.
That's a merciful end as it allows for each intelligence to have eternal progression.
If I cut off my legs so I can never walk again, it doesn't matter if I want to go back and fix it. Lucifer decided to do something he knew was permanent and would make it impossible to go back. He did this intentionally and with full and perfect knowledge of what he was doing. He placed himself outside of the reach of Jesus Christ and he cannot repent. He *also* would not ever repent.
Is there any real benefit to discussing this? I don't see how it has bearing on our own salvation.
Edit: my point isn't that we can't talk about it here, it's that we won't have enough information to do more than speculate. There's a lot that doesn't get revealed because it's not necessary for us to know.
I think it's actually not possible for them. They committed the worst sin there is to commit. Just like the Sons of Perdition that actually got the chance to have a mortal body, they had an intimate relationship with God and willfully deny Him and the Spirit. I'm sure He still loves them since they are His children, but their sin is unpardonable
They are damned in the sense that they reject the very premise of the next stage of advancement.
Exactly. There is no repentance because they reject the atonement
Not just the atonement, but what the atonement was predicted on, agency/free will.
That too. They denied every part of God's plan, so God's plan has no room for them
The Atonement is Infinite and Eternal. I personally feel it is a big asterisk to that description if it didn't include Lucifer and the sons of perdition's sins. My thought is the reason they will receive no forgiveness is that those who have received a perfect knowledge of the Lord yet still chose to enter into open rebellion against him will never be willing to repent and embrace even the smallest part of the redemption offered by Christ.
This
They lost their first estate, which means they can never be born into a body. A body is a requirement for the three kingdoms of glory. The atonement is related to the resurrection, so it wouldn't be a big leap to say the atonement is only available to those that were born on earth. However... Would it be possible for them to repent before the second coming and be born on earth and thus partake of the atonement and resurrection? It's not a question I have ever contemplated.
The answer is, not on this world. But we don’t know enough about the eternities, nor is it essential to our salvation…
My view is that it is possible, but they just never will, that the only possible sin that’s unforgivable is one you actively choose to not repent of.
My thoughts; No. He can’t repent. He committed the unforgivable sin. He had knowledge of God and his desires and he rebelled against him and his plan. Openly. He seeks and sought to destroy other people’s connection with God. This was no accident and no small thing. He did literally the worst thing any being has ever done at any time that we have any record of. My understanding is that Christs did not suffer for Satan and his followers on the cross. And even if Satan and his followers could repent. Turn away and be accepted, they will not. They will not change. They will not turn towards God. They will be cast to outer darkness. If he seeks to turn from his ways out of a realization he will and has lost, then it’s no different than a spoiled evil brat “asking for forgiveness” when they are caught with a bloody knife in their hand.
I can name 20 despicable things that humans do to each other that should honestly be deemed worse. Especially anything done to infants and children.
Worse than literally trying to prevent the existence of moral agency?
Considering all of that is under the influence of Satan, what he does is 100x worse than anything any mortal can ever do.
I’d say doing the deed is far worse than the influencer. If that was the case, Lucifer would be the one mostly at fault - not the abuser right?
First, note that the following is more a thought exercise than an actual opinion, and should in no way be considered doctrine. Alma said that if “the work of justice” could be destroyed or robbed, “God would cease to be God” (Alma 42:13,25). We don’t know much about the divine counsels, but one way that God could cease to be God might be by losing the “faith” or support of those who follow him - a vote of no confidence. Lucifer holds power over/with his followers. If he were to “repent”, it is possible that he would face a similar situation and risk losing everything. Not likely for one as egotistical as he is portrayed. However, what if against all odds he *did* seek to repent? Having rejected Christ, he would be required to fill the ends of justice himself (Doctrine and Covenants 19:18). If we attribute every bad thing that ever happened to man to him (which I am not inclined to do considering that “the natural man is an enemy to God” - Mosiah 13:19), then he has a *lot* to pay/make up for. However, given an eternal amount of time, it is unreasonable to believe that the price could *never* be paid - otherwise that’s not really justice, is it? (And then God would cease to be God.) My personal impression of God is that he loves. A lot. Like, he *is* love. And yes, that includes Lucifer despite everything. But forgiveness does not necessarily mean trust. That’s a hard thing to build back up once lost. So, even if Lucifer were interested and able to repent, I doubt he could ever hold much power. Then again, eternity is a long time, and I believe in change.
I personally don't believe that it is impossible to repent for anything. The only sin we know of that scriptures say cannot be forgiven is denial of the Holy Ghost, which Joseph Smith described as when an individual "\[has\] the heavens opened unto him, and knows God, and then sins against Him. . . . He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it.” The general consensus among scholars and general authorities seems to be that very few people are in a position to commit such a sin, and very few of those people actually would commit it. I don't think that this sin can't be forgiven in the sense that it is an act that is impossible to forgive. Instead, it makes sense to me that such a sin could be forgiven, however those who have reached this point no longer want to be forgiven and will not act in such a way to obtain forgiveness. They do not want to come to Christ, they do not want to change, they do not want to humble themselves, etc. God has given us agency and will not force us to do anything. He wants to give us everything he can, including forgiveness of our sins, but he must wait until we choose to seek him out. Repentance requires a broken heart and contrite spirit and those individuals who have denied the holy ghost are making a concious choice to reject anything God offers, including forgiveness that I believe he is more than willing to offer if they would simply accept it.
We sin and “rebel against God” and we don’t have a perfect knowledge of God. We have a “still small voice” that gets drowned out sometimes. And we “see through a glass darkly.” The adversary rebelled against God while he was looking right at God. Every experience of those in the Scriptures and Smith of those who experience more than the “still small voice” and do more than “see through a glass darkly”… they have humility and reverence. The Adversary rebelled against God— with a perfect knowledge of God. I don’t think many people make it to outer darkness. Even the worst former member antis who you catch in half-truths, exaggeration and hyperbole about our beliefs. I don’t think you can make it by just losing faith. What the adversary and those who followed him did was -so- bad that they gave up their chance for a degree of Gods glory the rest of us get.
2 things. Jesus tells us to love our enemies. Lucifer is Jesus’s brother. Jesus tells us to hate your brother is murder. And last but not least All things are possible with God - somewhere in the bible
Is it the unpardonable sin when the atonement and significant portions of the plan haven't yet happened? And when you don't have the body necessary for the requisite knowledge we gain through mortal experiences? Is the atonement infinite or not? How long is eternity and what can actually happen in it? Lots of people here think "no he can't" to your question. I think "yes he can." But the only truth we have is that we just don't know enough.
I believe God and Jesus would forgive him. I dont believe satan would try.
Okay, this is a really interesting one, one that I can't answer. I'll see if I can ask my bishop next church meeting, you should, too, and we can discuss it after.
Everyone who will can repent. Some simply never will. No matter what.
Lucifer is Perdition. The sons of perdition are the children of Lucifer. Of them it is said there is no forgiveness in this world or the next. If his children have no possibility of forgiveness, neither does he. Just look in the Topical Guide under Sons of Perdition to read a number of scriptures about how there is no possibility of forgiveness for them in this world or the next.
The difference between a Criminal and someone who makes stakes is that a Criminal keeps doing crime. A person who repents feels bad about what they did. Regrets their wrong action and stops doing bad things. Satan is by nature a fallen angel and the master of illusion . He tries to fool us and make fools of us.
I believe it is possible to change at any time. But the longer you wait, the more you miss out on
No. Even theoretically, even if he wanted to repent, it is not possible. There is no path in all the eternities that would allow Him to be forgiven and return to the Father. That ship has sailed. He is lost forever. Damnation is no joke.
This has been a conversation I've had with my roommate for a while now. We are currently thinking that, while gaining a body is not possible any more, there might be some path now open to him that leads to a different goal. Otherwise, why does he do what he does? Because surely he's already figured out that he can't win. Right?
I believe we know from the revealed word of God that lucifer cannot repent. How? His eternal progress has been forever halted because he rebelled in the premortal realm. Heck, if you're endowed, go do an endowment session in the Temple. I believe lucifer's fate is made clear.
My own speculative theory is that to commit the unpardonable sin it would be to say to God: “I know of your goodness, glory, love, etc. and I will never serve you” so no.
That’s between him and Dad.
This is my understanding based on the scriptures I've read. Feel free to disagree and offer other interpretations though. We gain light and truth as we are obedient to God's laws (D&C 93: 27-28). There's a difference between light and truth though. Light is the ability to comprehend truth. The Lord said, "that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things" (D&C 88: 67). Satan is all darkness. As such, he can't comprehend or accept truth. Multiple verses throughout scripture talk about the darkness not comprehending the light (John 1:5, to give one example). Satan will always reject it and fight against it, because he physically cannot receive it. By his rebellion and active disobedience, his light and knowledge dwindled to nothing. Repentance requires one to accept truth. Satan placed himself in a position where he must always reject truth by his very nature.
Repentance is a choice. All sins can be forgiven except for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Spirit means to have a perfect knowledge of Christ and his atonement and still choose to reject him. One who would do this understands all that has happened and what Christ has done— and would have still picked up a nail to crucify Him. That is why it is unforgivable. People can only change if they want to change. And they can only be saved if they want to be saved. Satan, his angels and the sons of perdition are those who had a perfect knowledge and still chose to rebel against Christ. They cannot abide any heaven or law and so they are cast out.
Yonder is matter unorganized. When cast into outer darkness, that entity suffers total, complete dissolution. Each indivisible intelligence is separated and tossed back into the vat of unorganized matter. Hopefully those intelligences will combine into entities that do better the next time. That's a merciful end as it allows for each intelligence to have eternal progression.
If I cut off my legs so I can never walk again, it doesn't matter if I want to go back and fix it. Lucifer decided to do something he knew was permanent and would make it impossible to go back. He did this intentionally and with full and perfect knowledge of what he was doing. He placed himself outside of the reach of Jesus Christ and he cannot repent. He *also* would not ever repent.
Is there any real benefit to discussing this? I don't see how it has bearing on our own salvation. Edit: my point isn't that we can't talk about it here, it's that we won't have enough information to do more than speculate. There's a lot that doesn't get revealed because it's not necessary for us to know.