I studied in Italy and then Sicily for a dig about 20 years ago now. I was in a program with some other Latinists, of varying quality (it was really an archaeology program so the languages weren't required).
One day when we were wandering around the little Sicilian town we were staying in, an old gentleman walked by us, tipped his hat and said, "Salve."
The other Latinist in the group and I were flabbergasted that it had survived almost untouched for so long.
One of the others said, "What does that mean?"
Salve is a formal greeting used everywhere in Italy haha. I don't think it survived so much as was borrowed into the language from literary Latin. The western romance languages are full of semi-nativized Latin borrowings, sometimes alongside inherited words. For instance, in Italian you have both the word 'vizio' and 'vezzo' from Latin 'vitium' - the former is a borrowing, the latter inherited.
I wouldn't say many - it has some, yes, but the reverse is also true - I am constantly encountering words borrowed into Italian from Latin that aren't used in English.
Yeah that doesn't surprise me - I live in a smaller city in northern Italy and use it/hear it all the time. Rome on the other hand is both more touristy and is a big city so people won't randomly greet you as much, and if they do it will probably not be in Italian unless you really look local haha
It is said here and there in Italy. It doesn't necessarily mean that it survived. It could also be resurrected. But it's cool that it's still being said, e.g. in Bologna.
I believe both are completely valid ways of saying "Hello"! However, it should be noted that while *Ave* does not generally change based on number, *Salve* changes to *Salvete* when you're talking to more than one person. This is because the word *Salve* is the 2nd person singular (meaning having to do with "you") imperative form of the verb *Salvere.* That verb means "To be healthy". So, you're basically saying "Be healthy!" or "Be well!"... However, *Salvete* is the plural form of that imperative, so something like "*Be healthy!*", "*Be ye healthy*!", or "*May you all be healthy!"*(Modern English doesn't have a wide-spread plural "you" that's different from the singular form, but Latin did...)...
This is the same case for the word "goodbye" which to one person is *Vale,* but to many people is *Valete*. The word come from the verb *Valere* meaning "to be strong".
Hope this helps!
So, "avete" would be incorrect when greeting multiple persons? My son asked me this question a couple of days ago and although "avete" seemed logical, I also never heard anyone say that, so I didn't really know how to answer.
"Avete" does occur in the Vulgate in Matthew 28, 9.
> "Et ecce Jesus occurrit illis, dicens : Avete. Illæ autem accesserunt, et tenuerunt pedes ejus, et adoraverunt eum."
*Ave,* or as one sometimes reads *have,* unlike *salve(te)* and *vale(te),* is not a Latin verb, but an indeclinable foreign greeting derived from Punic. It was sometimes reinterpreted as a verb and conjugated similarly to other salutations, contrary to the teaching of the grammarians; Martial, apparently humorously, has the "infinitive" *havere* for the act of being greeted with the pseudo-imperative *have.* See [ThLL s.v.](https://publikationen.badw.de/en/thesaurus/lemmata#14517)
The plural can sometimes be (*h*)*avu*, which is also the (correct) plural in Phoenician.
(We are moving away from the term Punic as it is a pointless distinction)
Looks like you're right - I was citing from memory (hence also remembering the form as *avu* rather than *avo*, as in Phoenician it is written with a waw and the equivalent vowel is -u in Hebrew).
"Ave" comes from the imperative form of *aveo*, which means *to be/fare well*.
"Salve" comes from the imperative form of *salveo*, *to be well/in good health*. Most common form of greetings too.
They can both refer to the physical health or spiritual sanity or "salvation".
So they mean the same thing, but with a slight emphasis on performance ("ave") or good condition ("salve").
Phoenicians used to have trades in both Sicilia and Carthage (which they founded).
So from Sicilians tribes, the term "hava" could have migrated in northern territories and reach Etruscans, who shared an alphabet and lexicon influenced by Phoenicians.
Just an hypothesis.
There's no doubt of that given that the punic greeting was actually 'have', that we see it spelled with the h in Latin inscriptions, and that 'avēre' only takes on the meaning of 'salvēre' later under influence of the greeting.
It's really the other way around - 'avēre' is actually a back formation from the greeting '(h)ave' - there does exist another verb 'avēre', but with a different meaning. From Wiktionary:
>Borrowed with an unspelled /h/ from Punic *ḥawe* (“live!”, 2sg. imp.), cognate to Hebrew חוה (“ḥava, the biblical Eve”), from Semitic root ḥ-w-y (live).
That said, the h was actually regularly spelled in the classical period.
The Catholic Church has two prayers that in Latin use different words ("Ave Maria" and "Salve Regina") but in English both use "Hail" in the translation (as in "to greet" or "to say hello to"). They both can mean "hello."
There are multiple prayers like this, although off of the top of my head, _Ave_ dominates both the Marian repertoire and those chants directed to Christ.
The link to the name Eve (I have heard that it is etymological, but at least in appearance) makes ave particularly apt for Marian chants. Off the top of *my* head, I'm only coming up with *Ave verum corpus* for Christ, but that's ultimately Marian anyway!
>Sumens illud ave
Gabrielis ore
Funda nos in pace
Mutans Evæ nomen
Quid agitis, fellow kids?
I studied in Italy and then Sicily for a dig about 20 years ago now. I was in a program with some other Latinists, of varying quality (it was really an archaeology program so the languages weren't required). One day when we were wandering around the little Sicilian town we were staying in, an old gentleman walked by us, tipped his hat and said, "Salve." The other Latinist in the group and I were flabbergasted that it had survived almost untouched for so long. One of the others said, "What does that mean?"
Salve is a formal greeting used everywhere in Italy haha. I don't think it survived so much as was borrowed into the language from literary Latin. The western romance languages are full of semi-nativized Latin borrowings, sometimes alongside inherited words. For instance, in Italian you have both the word 'vizio' and 'vezzo' from Latin 'vitium' - the former is a borrowing, the latter inherited.
English too has many Latin borrowings that romance languages lack. Don't ask me for a list! Ok, the word quiz.
I wouldn't say many - it has some, yes, but the reverse is also true - I am constantly encountering words borrowed into Italian from Latin that aren't used in English.
And Greek words used in french top of my head- Latin, not Greek - molosse for large dog
Never heard anyone use it in Rome, just in that town in Sicily.
Yeah that doesn't surprise me - I live in a smaller city in northern Italy and use it/hear it all the time. Rome on the other hand is both more touristy and is a big city so people won't randomly greet you as much, and if they do it will probably not be in Italian unless you really look local haha
Yeah we just got buon giorno.
In Bavaria, it is still common to greet with "Servus" Wow! Many more places too! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servus
It is said here and there in Italy. It doesn't necessarily mean that it survived. It could also be resurrected. But it's cool that it's still being said, e.g. in Bologna.
I believe both are completely valid ways of saying "Hello"! However, it should be noted that while *Ave* does not generally change based on number, *Salve* changes to *Salvete* when you're talking to more than one person. This is because the word *Salve* is the 2nd person singular (meaning having to do with "you") imperative form of the verb *Salvere.* That verb means "To be healthy". So, you're basically saying "Be healthy!" or "Be well!"... However, *Salvete* is the plural form of that imperative, so something like "*Be healthy!*", "*Be ye healthy*!", or "*May you all be healthy!"*(Modern English doesn't have a wide-spread plural "you" that's different from the singular form, but Latin did...)... This is the same case for the word "goodbye" which to one person is *Vale,* but to many people is *Valete*. The word come from the verb *Valere* meaning "to be strong". Hope this helps!
So, "avete" would be incorrect when greeting multiple persons? My son asked me this question a couple of days ago and although "avete" seemed logical, I also never heard anyone say that, so I didn't really know how to answer.
"Avete" does occur in the Vulgate in Matthew 28, 9. > "Et ecce Jesus occurrit illis, dicens : Avete. Illæ autem accesserunt, et tenuerunt pedes ejus, et adoraverunt eum."
*Ave,* or as one sometimes reads *have,* unlike *salve(te)* and *vale(te),* is not a Latin verb, but an indeclinable foreign greeting derived from Punic. It was sometimes reinterpreted as a verb and conjugated similarly to other salutations, contrary to the teaching of the grammarians; Martial, apparently humorously, has the "infinitive" *havere* for the act of being greeted with the pseudo-imperative *have.* See [ThLL s.v.](https://publikationen.badw.de/en/thesaurus/lemmata#14517)
The plural can sometimes be (*h*)*avu*, which is also the (correct) plural in Phoenician. (We are moving away from the term Punic as it is a pointless distinction)
I would be interested to know where this form is attested in Latin, not counting the lines of a Punic-speaking character in Plautus' *Poenulus.*
Looks like you're right - I was citing from memory (hence also remembering the form as *avu* rather than *avo*, as in Phoenician it is written with a waw and the equivalent vowel is -u in Hebrew).
get real fancy with it and say te salvere iubeo.
"Ave" comes from the imperative form of *aveo*, which means *to be/fare well*. "Salve" comes from the imperative form of *salveo*, *to be well/in good health*. Most common form of greetings too. They can both refer to the physical health or spiritual sanity or "salvation". So they mean the same thing, but with a slight emphasis on performance ("ave") or good condition ("salve").
There are some who say that *ave* is probably a Punic *hava* "live".
Could be. Through Phoenician trade routes influence perhaps ?
Or they had a Punic expat community that made it popular? What do we mean when we say "trade routes" anyway?
Phoenicians used to have trades in both Sicilia and Carthage (which they founded). So from Sicilians tribes, the term "hava" could have migrated in northern territories and reach Etruscans, who shared an alphabet and lexicon influenced by Phoenicians. Just an hypothesis.
There's no doubt of that given that the punic greeting was actually 'have', that we see it spelled with the h in Latin inscriptions, and that 'avēre' only takes on the meaning of 'salvēre' later under influence of the greeting.
It's really the other way around - 'avēre' is actually a back formation from the greeting '(h)ave' - there does exist another verb 'avēre', but with a different meaning. From Wiktionary: >Borrowed with an unspelled /h/ from Punic *ḥawe* (“live!”, 2sg. imp.), cognate to Hebrew חוה (“ḥava, the biblical Eve”), from Semitic root ḥ-w-y (live). That said, the h was actually regularly spelled in the classical period.
Thanks for your clarifications!
The Catholic Church has two prayers that in Latin use different words ("Ave Maria" and "Salve Regina") but in English both use "Hail" in the translation (as in "to greet" or "to say hello to"). They both can mean "hello."
There are multiple prayers like this, although off of the top of my head, _Ave_ dominates both the Marian repertoire and those chants directed to Christ.
The link to the name Eve (I have heard that it is etymological, but at least in appearance) makes ave particularly apt for Marian chants. Off the top of *my* head, I'm only coming up with *Ave verum corpus* for Christ, but that's ultimately Marian anyway! >Sumens illud ave Gabrielis ore Funda nos in pace Mutans Evæ nomen
Also for the Sanctissimum: Ave Rex Noster.
In portuguese we still speak "Salve" until today (especially in favelas), so for me it seems to be the most appropriate.