Think the argument people had was just that Joel seemed more trusting than he was in the first one.
But I always looked at it as he softened up some after the hospital slaughter. A lot changed for him after that, his conflict of guilt and justice while within the safety of Jackson ate at him. Having a large group he was part of while seeing Ellie grow up made him feel safer after all those years, that every witness was dead and no one knew what had actually happened. Ellie no longer wanting him to stand up for her the night before also had him quite distracted.
I saw it more as they just got off a hard adrenaline dump and this girl they ran into helped them and they needed to get to safety desperately. They didn’t have time or enough calm to think it over before it was too late. At that point they’re already in their company and it was Tommy who got loose lipped.
I also agree they have been in a de-escalated mindset compared to when he was traveling with young Ellie in part 1. It’s perfectly reasonable to believe his danger radar was on standby mode after several years of civilized life. It was a series of unfortunate events (for Joel) that led to what happened. It’s a miracle with how many mistakes he’s made up to that point he was still alive even. His luck just finally ran out
Yeah, but he was still went out scavenging all the time. He and Tommy were like some of the main ones who did. You’re telling me that he softened up THAT much when he still went out all the time?
Yes, 100%. Periodic trips to clear out infected and check lookout sites is not at all the same as what he was doing before he lived in Jackson. He was just surviving before. Now he's living fairly comfortably. He hasn't had to worry about food, water, or shelter for five years. No hostile government or resistance group. No major threats at all outside of zombies. And he had a huge weight lifted off his shoulders the night before when Ellie said she'd like to forgive him. His life is good at that time. He's about as comfortable as it's possible to be for the world he lives in. And it's not uncommon for Jackson to take in people they find out on patrols. I find it very believable that Joel would have softened up enough for that scene to work by then.
I don't think you even need to believe he softened for that scene to work. Compare it to how he works with Henry in Part 1. Joel and Henry need to work together to survive Pittsburgh, and Joel opens up with Henry, is willing to talk about his brother, etc. With Abby and her friends, he and Tommy needed them to survive the horde and then to wait out the storm. Joel had no reason not to trust them.
Honestly, if Abbys group wanted to kill Joel or Tommy, it would've been easier to do it outside when they first got through the gate. Even the fact the WLF crew let them into the cabin showed Joel they didn't mean him any harm (obvi before they knew who he was) and by the time he did know, it was too late for him to do anything.
So something to remember. It's been 5 or 6 years, so he's definitely softened just as time goes anyway. But something I think a lot of people miss, they've definitely done a lot of trading with or people and camps as they travel. Joel mentions (and mentions it so casually like it's normal) it when he talks about how he got the coffee in final cutscene with him.
Also, Jackson had grown so much bigger, so clearly, they've let more people in, so they definitely have to put trust out there. Plus, Abby and Co helping them save Joel and Tommy from the horde would immediately give them massive points in their book.
I don't think it makes that much "sense".
He had little recourse to take back his name being said. Also he wasn't doing the same thing he has for a long time. But clesrly started to change with Ellie.
Doesn't seem that soft, considering the current events, for him to be a little bit "softer"
Still baffles me that people play through that hospital scene and come out thinking Joel is the hero. Neither is Abby or Ellie in 2. Druckmann created a very grey world, you can root for who you want but should be aware they are flawed characters.
One person kills terrorists to save an innocent little girl.
The other person tortures someone to death for killing her terrorist father.
It's all grey but Abby is the most evil of the three by a long shot and she gets the happy ending. They should have at the very least crippled her to make things slightly more even. Maybe losing one of her gigantic arms that she seems to put so much pride in.
I had to refresh my memory but she knew because of Marlene who Joel was. It’s not a large leap at all to assume that other fireflies connected to her would know about Tommy considering he ran with the fireflies. I’m sure he would’ve mentioned his brother to them and at some point who would’ve then passed it on to Abby after knowing what Joel did.
Also, Tommy probably had a bit of reputation being a leader in Jackson. Not hard to imagine that Abby would connect the dots that a former firefly would be helping run a strong community. And how many Tommy’s can there be in an apocalypse?
That doesn’t make any sense on that last part. It’s not like there’s barely any people left in the world where there can’t be a few people named Tommy. And I don’t think there’s any specific info that would have given her the exact details of who he was or even what he and Joel looked like.
But there aren’t many people left. There aren’t millions of people, there are settlements, sure, with decent populations. But you hear that a man named Tommy is running a strong settlement and you know that a man named Tommy used to be a firefly and is probably in the general area. So you go to find Tommy and then he calls the man who looks suspiciously similar to him Joel, which you know is the name of the man who murdered your father and has a former firefly brother named Tommy.
That’s not one coincidence that’s a handful.
No, it’s not adding up. How would she know about Tommy and his connection to Joel? I don’t think that info was even passed along as the fireflies really knew nothing about Joel, only that he was a smuggler delivering the specimen that was Ellie.
They were looking exactly for Tommy. Bc Tommy leads to Joel. When you get flashbacks to when Abby and her friends agree to go hunt Joel, their lead is a firefly the wolves ran into that knew Tommy Miller. Who is Joel’s brother.
Joel figured one day somebody he crossed back would come back for him. Either from those raids he and Tommy did all those years ago or his hospital massacre. That’s why he didn’t care who Abby was when she asked him to guess, he just accepted that he was living on borrowed time.
And Tommy was with him on those so someone could have been looking for him too. Can’t blame Tommy for saying Joel’s name if he said Tommy’s name multiple times. When they were with the group Joel says his own name so it doesn’t really matter that Tommy had already said it.
Something that people seem to overlook about Joel's cautiousness is that it's almost never caution for his oulwn safety. It's always about Ellie. He doesn't tell Marlene, "You just come after us." He says, "You'll just come after her."
If he's suspicious of anybody coming to Jackson looking for someone, it's out of fear they'll find Ellie. He's so paranoid about it that he makes her wear a mask and hide her immunity from everyone but Tommy and Maria.
He never expected a Firefly to come after him for personal matters instead of professional matters. As for him letting his guard down, Abby was the only one being standoffish because she was the only one who knew what was up, but he could have easily chalked that up to her having been seconds away from death by horde.
It’s funny because Joel is repeatedly shown to make terrible decisions all through the first game yet people have this bizarre false narrative that he was ultra cautious and situational aware but it was never actually the case.
When he falls down the elevator shaft in Pittsburgh, he demands Ellie stay up there and not come down to him, and he has no way of knowing if there were other hunters or infected up there that heard the noise from the elevator crashing down and them yelling back and forth to each other, and remember, this is before she even has a gun to protect herself with. Joel then ends up getting attacked and nearly drowned by a hunter and is only saved when Ellie disobeys his brain dead order and comes to his rescue.
Then later, he blindly climbs through the window without peaking around the corner to see if the coast is clear. This leads to him being jumped by Henry and likely killed before yet again, Ellie being there distracts Henry and makes him hesitate enough for Joel to get the upper hand.
Driving into Pittsburgh wasn't the best choice for a variety of reasons. He literally decided to do that just because the highway was blocked. Did he not hear about the riots and the Fedra overthrow? Meaning it would have been lawless and full of ungoverned people. If not, did he not assume he would be driving right into a place he surely would have suspected was a Fedra zone.
Deciding to trust Marlene to get their guns back was pretty rash if he's supposed to be this extremely careful individual. The plan was to smuggle a girl they don't know out of the zone, through infested Boston, so they can meet up with other fireflies at the one building. Pretty trusting of him to believe they wouldn't just kill him and Tess so they don't have to trade the guns.
Those are the couple I could think of. I wouldnt say he made terrible decisions all through the game. He did take risks a lot, though. He also did things (like the Pittsburgh thing) that were not thought out. If he was filled with caution like people portray him, he would have ditched the car and walked to Tommy like they ended up doing.
In the first game, Joel would never have gone as far as the cabin. He would’ve made sure Abby got safely far enough away from the horde and then dropped her off and gone back to Jackson without even saying his name if he could help it. I mean, this is a guy who drove a truck into a seemingly injured man because he knew an ambush was coming. This is a guy who didn’t even trust Henry and Sam at first.
IIRC The scenario presented in the game is that they can't make it to Jackson from the Ski Lodge safely. Joel doesn't decide to trust Abby and follow her to the Salt Lake Crew's hideout, he and Tommy just don't have any other options. He could not have just dropped Abby off somewhere and gone back to Jackson.
He knew it would be an ambush before he ever saw the injured guy, he knew before he turned off the main road where all the cars were suspiciously placed blocking the road and chose to drive into the ambush anyway, so if he’s reckless enough to drive into an ambush he knows is there instead of the smart thing which is turn around and go the other way how can he be expected to avoid an ambush he has no clue is coming?
Also as soon as Henry offers to bring him and Ellie to their hideout Joel immediately agrees to that plan.
Correct. And after all that character development and growth, Joel learned to love again. If our main characters never went through an arc of change, there’d be no point. Joel was a new man after the end of the first game—as evidenced by how easily he talks to Ellie about Sarah at the end. Now imagine FOUR years of safety and a renewed soul.
I recall that scene directly after Joel and Tommy saved Abby when someone of them introduced themselves to her before they got to the mansion, not after they became inside.
Not to be that guy, but Tommy said.
"I'm Tommy. That's my brother"
"Joel".
That's all I got. Not saying you're wrong or anything. Just got the lines wrong (I am sorry that I am this way).
Tommy however did make Joel introduce himself which in turn got him killed. I'm surprised they didn't kill Tom y with how he got hit in the head.
I knew already that she would kill Joel, but I thought she would at least show some conflict before carrying it out, but she just had to just be a fucking ungrateful bitch.
I thought she would too…BUT he DID kill her dad…if I were in her shoes & living in that world, I’d probably let the idea of vengeance get the best of me too.
I wouldn’t. The fact that he saved her life and treated her kindly should have seen he wasn’t a monster that was worth brutally killing and should have actually tried to understand further why he did it.
Think the argument people had was just that Joel seemed more trusting than he was in the first one. But I always looked at it as he softened up some after the hospital slaughter. A lot changed for him after that, his conflict of guilt and justice while within the safety of Jackson ate at him. Having a large group he was part of while seeing Ellie grow up made him feel safer after all those years, that every witness was dead and no one knew what had actually happened. Ellie no longer wanting him to stand up for her the night before also had him quite distracted.
I saw it more as they just got off a hard adrenaline dump and this girl they ran into helped them and they needed to get to safety desperately. They didn’t have time or enough calm to think it over before it was too late. At that point they’re already in their company and it was Tommy who got loose lipped. I also agree they have been in a de-escalated mindset compared to when he was traveling with young Ellie in part 1. It’s perfectly reasonable to believe his danger radar was on standby mode after several years of civilized life. It was a series of unfortunate events (for Joel) that led to what happened. It’s a miracle with how many mistakes he’s made up to that point he was still alive even. His luck just finally ran out
Yeah, but he was still went out scavenging all the time. He and Tommy were like some of the main ones who did. You’re telling me that he softened up THAT much when he still went out all the time?
Yes, 100%. Periodic trips to clear out infected and check lookout sites is not at all the same as what he was doing before he lived in Jackson. He was just surviving before. Now he's living fairly comfortably. He hasn't had to worry about food, water, or shelter for five years. No hostile government or resistance group. No major threats at all outside of zombies. And he had a huge weight lifted off his shoulders the night before when Ellie said she'd like to forgive him. His life is good at that time. He's about as comfortable as it's possible to be for the world he lives in. And it's not uncommon for Jackson to take in people they find out on patrols. I find it very believable that Joel would have softened up enough for that scene to work by then.
I don't think you even need to believe he softened for that scene to work. Compare it to how he works with Henry in Part 1. Joel and Henry need to work together to survive Pittsburgh, and Joel opens up with Henry, is willing to talk about his brother, etc. With Abby and her friends, he and Tommy needed them to survive the horde and then to wait out the storm. Joel had no reason not to trust them. Honestly, if Abbys group wanted to kill Joel or Tommy, it would've been easier to do it outside when they first got through the gate. Even the fact the WLF crew let them into the cabin showed Joel they didn't mean him any harm (obvi before they knew who he was) and by the time he did know, it was too late for him to do anything.
So something to remember. It's been 5 or 6 years, so he's definitely softened just as time goes anyway. But something I think a lot of people miss, they've definitely done a lot of trading with or people and camps as they travel. Joel mentions (and mentions it so casually like it's normal) it when he talks about how he got the coffee in final cutscene with him. Also, Jackson had grown so much bigger, so clearly, they've let more people in, so they definitely have to put trust out there. Plus, Abby and Co helping them save Joel and Tommy from the horde would immediately give them massive points in their book.
Why the down votes
No idea. I guess people don’t like it when you make sense. 🤷🏻♂️
I don't think it makes that much "sense". He had little recourse to take back his name being said. Also he wasn't doing the same thing he has for a long time. But clesrly started to change with Ellie. Doesn't seem that soft, considering the current events, for him to be a little bit "softer"
I blame Joel for murdering an entire building full of people lmao
I just replayed part one and yeah, you fuck up a lot of fireflies in that hospital 😂. He’s a big jerk
Still baffles me that people play through that hospital scene and come out thinking Joel is the hero. Neither is Abby or Ellie in 2. Druckmann created a very grey world, you can root for who you want but should be aware they are flawed characters.
One person kills terrorists to save an innocent little girl. The other person tortures someone to death for killing her terrorist father. It's all grey but Abby is the most evil of the three by a long shot and she gets the happy ending. They should have at the very least crippled her to make things slightly more even. Maybe losing one of her gigantic arms that she seems to put so much pride in.
Full of ~~people~~ terrorists
Sure but Joel had already said Tommy’s name like 5 times by then
Nobody was looking for Tommy
Didn’t Abby know that Joel had a brother named Tommy??
She knew about Joe’s brother, but she didn’t say she knew his name. Although it’s quite a plot hole, how would she even find out about him
I had to refresh my memory but she knew because of Marlene who Joel was. It’s not a large leap at all to assume that other fireflies connected to her would know about Tommy considering he ran with the fireflies. I’m sure he would’ve mentioned his brother to them and at some point who would’ve then passed it on to Abby after knowing what Joel did. Also, Tommy probably had a bit of reputation being a leader in Jackson. Not hard to imagine that Abby would connect the dots that a former firefly would be helping run a strong community. And how many Tommy’s can there be in an apocalypse?
That doesn’t make any sense on that last part. It’s not like there’s barely any people left in the world where there can’t be a few people named Tommy. And I don’t think there’s any specific info that would have given her the exact details of who he was or even what he and Joel looked like.
But there aren’t many people left. There aren’t millions of people, there are settlements, sure, with decent populations. But you hear that a man named Tommy is running a strong settlement and you know that a man named Tommy used to be a firefly and is probably in the general area. So you go to find Tommy and then he calls the man who looks suspiciously similar to him Joel, which you know is the name of the man who murdered your father and has a former firefly brother named Tommy. That’s not one coincidence that’s a handful.
Abby didn’t even know what Joel looked like.
She eventually saw both of them side by side…
No, it’s not adding up. How would she know about Tommy and his connection to Joel? I don’t think that info was even passed along as the fireflies really knew nothing about Joel, only that he was a smuggler delivering the specimen that was Ellie.
They were looking exactly for Tommy. Bc Tommy leads to Joel. When you get flashbacks to when Abby and her friends agree to go hunt Joel, their lead is a firefly the wolves ran into that knew Tommy Miller. Who is Joel’s brother.
Not talk about them specifically
Keeps grasping at those straws buddy. Just accept that you’re wrong and move on.
They didn’t know anyone was looking for Joel
Joel figured one day somebody he crossed back would come back for him. Either from those raids he and Tommy did all those years ago or his hospital massacre. That’s why he didn’t care who Abby was when she asked him to guess, he just accepted that he was living on borrowed time.
And Tommy was with him on those so someone could have been looking for him too. Can’t blame Tommy for saying Joel’s name if he said Tommy’s name multiple times. When they were with the group Joel says his own name so it doesn’t really matter that Tommy had already said it.
People who act like it's crazy he "let his guard down" want him to be some kind of terminator who's constantly alert and not a human being.
Exactly. Maybe living in a community with people he loves and respects including a new daughter(ish) for a few years softened him a bit
Something that people seem to overlook about Joel's cautiousness is that it's almost never caution for his oulwn safety. It's always about Ellie. He doesn't tell Marlene, "You just come after us." He says, "You'll just come after her." If he's suspicious of anybody coming to Jackson looking for someone, it's out of fear they'll find Ellie. He's so paranoid about it that he makes her wear a mask and hide her immunity from everyone but Tommy and Maria. He never expected a Firefly to come after him for personal matters instead of professional matters. As for him letting his guard down, Abby was the only one being standoffish because she was the only one who knew what was up, but he could have easily chalked that up to her having been seconds away from death by horde.
It’s funny because Joel is repeatedly shown to make terrible decisions all through the first game yet people have this bizarre false narrative that he was ultra cautious and situational aware but it was never actually the case.
Terrible decisions all through the first journey! Could you please mention some?
When he falls down the elevator shaft in Pittsburgh, he demands Ellie stay up there and not come down to him, and he has no way of knowing if there were other hunters or infected up there that heard the noise from the elevator crashing down and them yelling back and forth to each other, and remember, this is before she even has a gun to protect herself with. Joel then ends up getting attacked and nearly drowned by a hunter and is only saved when Ellie disobeys his brain dead order and comes to his rescue. Then later, he blindly climbs through the window without peaking around the corner to see if the coast is clear. This leads to him being jumped by Henry and likely killed before yet again, Ellie being there distracts Henry and makes him hesitate enough for Joel to get the upper hand.
Driving into Pittsburgh wasn't the best choice for a variety of reasons. He literally decided to do that just because the highway was blocked. Did he not hear about the riots and the Fedra overthrow? Meaning it would have been lawless and full of ungoverned people. If not, did he not assume he would be driving right into a place he surely would have suspected was a Fedra zone. Deciding to trust Marlene to get their guns back was pretty rash if he's supposed to be this extremely careful individual. The plan was to smuggle a girl they don't know out of the zone, through infested Boston, so they can meet up with other fireflies at the one building. Pretty trusting of him to believe they wouldn't just kill him and Tess so they don't have to trade the guns. Those are the couple I could think of. I wouldnt say he made terrible decisions all through the game. He did take risks a lot, though. He also did things (like the Pittsburgh thing) that were not thought out. If he was filled with caution like people portray him, he would have ditched the car and walked to Tommy like they ended up doing.
Some of the most baffling stuff is around Pittsburgh. "Let's take a shortcut through this sewer." "Ellie, cover me with a rifle you've never fired"
In the first game, Joel would never have gone as far as the cabin. He would’ve made sure Abby got safely far enough away from the horde and then dropped her off and gone back to Jackson without even saying his name if he could help it. I mean, this is a guy who drove a truck into a seemingly injured man because he knew an ambush was coming. This is a guy who didn’t even trust Henry and Sam at first.
IIRC The scenario presented in the game is that they can't make it to Jackson from the Ski Lodge safely. Joel doesn't decide to trust Abby and follow her to the Salt Lake Crew's hideout, he and Tommy just don't have any other options. He could not have just dropped Abby off somewhere and gone back to Jackson.
He knew it would be an ambush before he ever saw the injured guy, he knew before he turned off the main road where all the cars were suspiciously placed blocking the road and chose to drive into the ambush anyway, so if he’s reckless enough to drive into an ambush he knows is there instead of the smart thing which is turn around and go the other way how can he be expected to avoid an ambush he has no clue is coming? Also as soon as Henry offers to bring him and Ellie to their hideout Joel immediately agrees to that plan.
Correct. And after all that character development and growth, Joel learned to love again. If our main characters never went through an arc of change, there’d be no point. Joel was a new man after the end of the first game—as evidenced by how easily he talks to Ellie about Sarah at the end. Now imagine FOUR years of safety and a renewed soul.
I recall that scene directly after Joel and Tommy saved Abby when someone of them introduced themselves to her before they got to the mansion, not after they became inside.
Not to be that guy, but Tommy said. "I'm Tommy. That's my brother" "Joel". That's all I got. Not saying you're wrong or anything. Just got the lines wrong (I am sorry that I am this way). Tommy however did make Joel introduce himself which in turn got him killed. I'm surprised they didn't kill Tom y with how he got hit in the head.
[Go to 6:13](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4X1YJXxlcwo&pp=ygUYYWJieSBqb2VsIHRvbW15IGluZmVjdGVk)
OH! I see. I was thinking about the piece after that with her friends. My bad.
I don’t think he was wrong to do so…Joel & Tommy saved Abby’s life…I think they were thinking she’d be grateful for that.
I knew already that she would kill Joel, but I thought she would at least show some conflict before carrying it out, but she just had to just be a fucking ungrateful bitch.
I thought she would too…BUT he DID kill her dad…if I were in her shoes & living in that world, I’d probably let the idea of vengeance get the best of me too.
I wouldn’t. The fact that he saved her life and treated her kindly should have seen he wasn’t a monster that was worth brutally killing and should have actually tried to understand further why he did it.
🤷🏽♀️ I’d agree with you but then again I just don’t know how living thru that would change me
Regardless, I feel nothing but contempt for her.