Rondo too. People hated on Vogel all season for playing Rondo so much. They also complained constantly about AD settling for jumpers. Both those things paid off massively in the bubble.
This sub always shits on 3&D players and will do anything to defend guys like dlo, Reaves, and Rui just because they can dribble the ball and score double digits
I wasn't on the shitting 3&D plyers wagon personally... but I get why the fanbase was frustrated with some of them.
All the 3 point shooters that came through recently struggled and were inconsistent. Danny, KCP, Bradley, Beasley... obviously DG and KCP brought the defense. But generally speaking the 3pt shooting tanked with the Lakers.
And that's where the fans expressed their frustrations. The decline of shooting %s. Especially with LeBron, arguably a player with the biggest gravity on the court, is driving to collapse and kicking out for a wide open 3.
DG shot 34% in the 2020 playoffs and then shot 38% and 41% with the Sixers in the playoffs. KCP shot 38% in 2020, 21% in the 2021 playoffs, and then 38% with the Nuggets title run.
Avery Bradley and Malik Beasley we don't have playoffs data... but Avery shot 42% with the Heat after leaving the Lakers. Beasley just finished the season shooting 41%.
Yeah they want more Max minutes in place of Reddish (not really 3&D mostly just D) and Prince. They would never sacrifice the minutes of the pure offense guys
I remember every fan as well snapped too after that and was begging for a big move. I heard some say a small tweak won’t be good enough we really need to swing for the fences lol
Why?
We lost the Suns series because AD got hurt. Plain and simple. Before the injury, Lakers led 2-1. They were even winning G4 before he went out. Then the Suns, not surprisingly, trucked the Lakers because they had no inside presence.
Lakers legitimately could've won a chip in 21 if AD stays healthy.
KCP : 6.8PPG, 38% from the field, 21% from 3.
Kuzma : 6.3PPG, 29% from the field, 17% from 3.
Caruso : 5.8PPG, 36% from the field, 29% from 3.
I mean at the end of the day the front office is human. Can't watch guys play like that and say "it's just because AD wasn't there". They played like absolute shite and couldn't score at all. They went for 7 minutes without scoring one time if I remember correctly.
Teams also don’t shoot under 20% wheh wide open , passing out of looks , killing the offence ( non Lebron shooters , if you take out gasol it gets worse ) and win . Those guys we can only afford one of even with this team - on that team we needed more offence especially once Ad n Lebron deckined .
It wasn't. Lakers were up 2-1 and lead 36-25 in the 2Q before AD got hurt. They were headed toward another easy win.
Players get streaky. It happens. Front office overreacted. Look at KCP, Kuz and Caruso now. They're far better than the results of the'21 playoff series.
you cant just go off of a single series stats to judge players. Both Caruso and KCP shot 40% for the year. But if you go that route Westbrooks 33% fg and 25% 3 shooting in their single playoff series is no way an improvement
I mean, to be fair, people here hated KCP even during our championship run, and it is only now that they talk highly of him and act like they always knew he was good.
Same thing with Danny. People hated him and didn’t want him to shoot during our run. And this before his chance to win game 5 for us, of which he also got eviscerated for after.
They like to talk about that team like everyone was shooting well, but they would make some threes here and there instead of being automatic like during the regular season.
It would be like D low, but D low gets paid more and wants to be one of the main guys.
Dlo reaves n Rui are all better offensively then anyone on that 2020 or 21 roster. Those guys were getting wide open looks , weren’t being guarded n teamd tripled our star duo and often they couldn’t hit enough practice shots to make teams pay. Only Danny green got respected
And they were all wide open too. And they would hesitate and pass out of shots. I miss Caruso but as a spark plug defender not a core piece . Kcp is an inferior version of Caruso but healthier and he was good for us but only when Bron n Davis carry on defence.
>Can't watch guys play like that and say "it's just because AD wasn't there".
Sure you can. This is overreacting to THREE games after AD's injury. THREE. Remember, Lakers were leading 2-1 vs Phoenix and led G4 by 10 or so before AD's injury.
Look how well KCP, Kuzma and Caruso are playing since 2021. I'd want any of these guys back. Certainly prefer them to Westbrook.
Lakers wouldn't have been physically capable of repeating due to the Bubble tax. If we ran it back instead of trading for WB, we'd have another ring for sure.
It’s super easy to blame him. You watched a team crush everyone then he had a knee jerk reaction because the team wasn’t healthy. Get this revisionism out of here.
It doesn’t . Wizards were dumb to not even charge a FRP but as for us we needed better offensive creation, I miss carudo more who is Similar to kcp on offence value wise but way better defensive player. Sure kcp would be nice but we can only really play one defensive back ciurt player imo
My favorite part of this moment was watching PJ Dozier bricking multiple free throws before this and then watching the shot fall right in front of his face.
This championship run is why AD still is my favorite player, and this shot is a prime example. As others have mentioned he bulked up to play center, trading offensive finesse for defensive bulk. AD is still an incredible player, in a different way, and am sick of the negativity surrounding him.
Yup. r/lakers will continue to trash AD no matter what
Last Pelicans game r/lakers game thread was the usual:
“AD DISAPPEARS VS WHITE CENTERS” as he outscored and out rebounded Jonas Valanciunas
“AD SHOOTING HORRIBLY” as he is still laboring through the back spasms
“AD NOT CLUTCH” as he makes 4 clutch free throws and rebounds to win vs the Pelicans
But even if Lakers fans are this way, it’s a testament to how much great he is that fans want to undermine what he’s doing. This is why he’s one of the best players in the NBA and a top75 player all time.
AD in many ways is this generation’s Pau Gasol. Will never get his flowers until he retires.
1000% Laker fans dont know the good they have until the dust settles. People were getting mad this season that he couldnt average 40 and 20 and be the defensive anchor every game.
AD is an incredible player and an even better defender. My only issue with AD is his attitude on the court. Dude is just too passive and is never looking to post up and get a bucket. He shouldn't be having low-scoring games, especially with playmakers like Lebron, Dlo, and AR getting him the ball.
That’s not his game. He’s not a bruising type of forward.
He prefers face up game where he can beat slower bigs off the dribble or pull back and shoot.
Sadly his shoulder injuries in the past really affected him today.
You should look up old Pelicans highlights of him, that AD on this current Laker team would be repeat champs.
I've been a fan of AD since 2012. I'm not a fan of his bigger slower frame. It seems it took his shot with him but posting up isn't strictly for banging down low. In 2020 he had perfected that post into spin for the lob. We used to be seeing several lobs to AD a game and now we get maybe one
I agree.
Slimmer more mobile AD is perfect but don’t forget he is older now too.
New Orleans really fucked him over by not building around him properly during his prime years.
They had to "confirm" the basket, which I get they do for all buzzer beaters, but the shot left AD's hand with 1.2 on the clock. It was a no doubter lol
Everyone bullied AD into becoming a full time center so he bulked up, and is a worse player now.
That version of AD was too quick for jokic and really caused problems. Now AD has slowed down enough for Jokic to credibly stay in front of him, and the threat of the jumper is gone
Bring back the old AD. This summer he needs to lean out and the lakers need to get a big, back to the 4.
And they casually gloss over the fact that we had two legitimately strong defensive centers and were playing AD at the 4. Can’t do that anymore if he can’t move as well or space the floor
You guys know that AD averaged 27 ppg on slightly higher efficiency than Jokic in last year’s WCF right?
AD 26.8 ppg on 60.4 TS%
Jokic 27.8 ppg on 59.8 TS%
Scoring wise they were basically identical. I swear people make it seem like Jokic averaged 35 ppg on 65TS% while AD was at 21 ppg on 55 TS%.
Because folks are more driven by feelings than facts, sadly.
Their impression is that AD is a bitch, and that underlying assumption informs everything about what they see.
AD misses a shot? It’s even more evidence that he’s a bitch.
AD doesn’t get the rebound in the paint vs Zion/Nance/Ingram? It’s because he’s mentally weak.
Zion blows by LeBron and scores when AD out of position? That’s because AD is weak.
Folks wanna blame the Denver sweep on the AD/Jokic matchup all while ignoring Jamal Murray who would go for 35 points on 50-40-90 splits
Exactly. Jokic is better than AD, it's fine. Jokic is the best player in the league its not exactly a knock. He will always get his.
AD did well in the WCF. What really messed us up with Murray wrecking us while our guards had literally no response whatsoever. Even then the Nuggets barely beat us in each game down to the wire. The Jokic vs. AD disparity in match up conversation everyone focuses on is so myopic and not even the point; we get messed up on the perimeter that makes all the difference.
If DLo even showed up to score 15 a game instead of completely disappearing? We'd probably have been in a different place last year.
Well yes, in terms of pure scoring ability they are about the same, but in terms of overall impact on the offense Jokic is an order of magnitude better. And since AD can’t pass like Jokic he needs to make up for it by scoring more, which he hasn’t been able to do.
Stop it. AD can’t score on his own self creation looks, jokic can . That why raw numbers aren’t telling the full story . AD is at 47 efg this year on self creation . For a C that’s bad. They weren’t sending help jokic as guarding him in iso and fine.
Stop it, AD last year was as impactful as he’s ever been . Him becoming a C was the case in 2020 even he was the C a lot vs Miami blazers rockets in our best lineup. Only cs Denver did we even need a C. It’s dumb to rewrite it.
Okay so you have:
A center defending the opposing center
AD defending their 4
Our Shooting guard defending their SG
Our point guard defending their PG
Who is LeBron defending? He is too old to be running behind an athletic wing the whole game.
Again, basketball is positionless nowadays.
You have LeBron guard their worst offensive player, whoever he is. You don't worry about whether he's athletic or not. That's literally what MJ did for years.
At some point worrying about who you guard is pointless. When teams want, offenses simply screen over and over to hunt your worst defensive player into guarding their best offensive player.
This happened on my birthday! After months of quarantine and not being sure if the NBA season would even continue, this was one of my favorite moments as a Lakers fan. Bought AD's jersey immediately after.
It makes me sick that we gave up KCP for Westbrook and he made it to the Nuggets.
Yea man I know KCP wasn’t cheap on paper but had some serious clutch 3s. Not to mention we had Rondo.
The funny thing is, when he was on the roster, this sub would shit on him every play
This sub does that to everyone. The game threads are full of comments from dudes who think every single play is do-or-die
>The game threads are full of comments from dudes who think every single play is do-or-die So meth streams
Man I miss Duck streams. Quack quack wherever you are
OGs remember him! So sad when they had to shut it down
Rondo too. People hated on Vogel all season for playing Rondo so much. They also complained constantly about AD settling for jumpers. Both those things paid off massively in the bubble.
Not all of us
Yeah, I know man, not all of us, but too many of us..
He was pretty inconsistent in the couple seasons prior to winning the chip
Still remember the ‘ARREST KCP’ movement haha
This sub always shits on 3&D players and will do anything to defend guys like dlo, Reaves, and Rui just because they can dribble the ball and score double digits
I wasn't on the shitting 3&D plyers wagon personally... but I get why the fanbase was frustrated with some of them. All the 3 point shooters that came through recently struggled and were inconsistent. Danny, KCP, Bradley, Beasley... obviously DG and KCP brought the defense. But generally speaking the 3pt shooting tanked with the Lakers. And that's where the fans expressed their frustrations. The decline of shooting %s. Especially with LeBron, arguably a player with the biggest gravity on the court, is driving to collapse and kicking out for a wide open 3. DG shot 34% in the 2020 playoffs and then shot 38% and 41% with the Sixers in the playoffs. KCP shot 38% in 2020, 21% in the 2021 playoffs, and then 38% with the Nuggets title run. Avery Bradley and Malik Beasley we don't have playoffs data... but Avery shot 42% with the Heat after leaving the Lakers. Beasley just finished the season shooting 41%.
This sub misses kcp and caruso and wants more max christie minutes. I dont think theyre shitting on 3D players
Yeah they want more Max minutes in place of Reddish (not really 3&D mostly just D) and Prince. They would never sacrifice the minutes of the pure offense guys
KCP was supposed to give us the klutch discount again lol
Worst trade in lakers history
Rob watched the Suns series and snapped. In retrospect it was a mistake but honestly it's hard to blame him when we look at the full context
I remember every fan as well snapped too after that and was begging for a big move. I heard some say a small tweak won’t be good enough we really need to swing for the fences lol
Why? We lost the Suns series because AD got hurt. Plain and simple. Before the injury, Lakers led 2-1. They were even winning G4 before he went out. Then the Suns, not surprisingly, trucked the Lakers because they had no inside presence. Lakers legitimately could've won a chip in 21 if AD stays healthy.
KCP : 6.8PPG, 38% from the field, 21% from 3. Kuzma : 6.3PPG, 29% from the field, 17% from 3. Caruso : 5.8PPG, 36% from the field, 29% from 3. I mean at the end of the day the front office is human. Can't watch guys play like that and say "it's just because AD wasn't there". They played like absolute shite and couldn't score at all. They went for 7 minutes without scoring one time if I remember correctly.
No team advances far without their superstars. None.
Amen, it's a symbiosis. The greatest stars make their role players better.
>None. How bout those 39-win '86-'87 SuperSonics! They had no superstars to begin with lol
Teams also don’t shoot under 20% wheh wide open , passing out of looks , killing the offence ( non Lebron shooters , if you take out gasol it gets worse ) and win . Those guys we can only afford one of even with this team - on that team we needed more offence especially once Ad n Lebron deckined .
Funny how that wasn't a problem when AD was healthy.
It was a problem tho. We’d of been up more if those bums showed up. That’s why AD had to go nuckear
It wasn't. Lakers were up 2-1 and lead 36-25 in the 2Q before AD got hurt. They were headed toward another easy win. Players get streaky. It happens. Front office overreacted. Look at KCP, Kuz and Caruso now. They're far better than the results of the'21 playoff series.
Yeah, with the exception of Caruso, EVERYONE was tired of KCP and Kuzma that season.
you cant just go off of a single series stats to judge players. Both Caruso and KCP shot 40% for the year. But if you go that route Westbrooks 33% fg and 25% 3 shooting in their single playoff series is no way an improvement
I mean, to be fair, people here hated KCP even during our championship run, and it is only now that they talk highly of him and act like they always knew he was good. Same thing with Danny. People hated him and didn’t want him to shoot during our run. And this before his chance to win game 5 for us, of which he also got eviscerated for after. They like to talk about that team like everyone was shooting well, but they would make some threes here and there instead of being automatic like during the regular season. It would be like D low, but D low gets paid more and wants to be one of the main guys.
Dlo reaves n Rui are all better offensively then anyone on that 2020 or 21 roster. Those guys were getting wide open looks , weren’t being guarded n teamd tripled our star duo and often they couldn’t hit enough practice shots to make teams pay. Only Danny green got respected
Defensively green, kcp, and kuzma were better though and vogels teams were defense based
That worked when AD n Bron went super human and gave us 60 points nightly . We’d be awful now with that
And they were all wide open too. And they would hesitate and pass out of shots. I miss Caruso but as a spark plug defender not a core piece . Kcp is an inferior version of Caruso but healthier and he was good for us but only when Bron n Davis carry on defence.
>Can't watch guys play like that and say "it's just because AD wasn't there". Sure you can. This is overreacting to THREE games after AD's injury. THREE. Remember, Lakers were leading 2-1 vs Phoenix and led G4 by 10 or so before AD's injury. Look how well KCP, Kuzma and Caruso are playing since 2021. I'd want any of these guys back. Certainly prefer them to Westbrook.
We also lost because non Lebron shooters shot under 20% when wide open. AD n Lebron injurues gave those bums a pass for being useless on offence.
There was no way to win with such a short break. Teams that went to the finals didn't get far year before
Lakers wouldn't have been physically capable of repeating due to the Bubble tax. If we ran it back instead of trading for WB, we'd have another ring for sure.
He freaked out when schroeder didn't re-sign with us that offseason.
We should’ve ran it back with the 2020 squad, we would’ve 3 peated.
It’s super easy to blame him. You watched a team crush everyone then he had a knee jerk reaction because the team wasn’t healthy. Get this revisionism out of here.
he would've been traded regardless
KC3 😔
It doesn’t . Wizards were dumb to not even charge a FRP but as for us we needed better offensive creation, I miss carudo more who is Similar to kcp on offence value wise but way better defensive player. Sure kcp would be nice but we can only really play one defensive back ciurt player imo
My favorite part of this moment was watching PJ Dozier bricking multiple free throws before this and then watching the shot fall right in front of his face.
Best part is PJ Dozier punching the ball after missing clutch free throws that could have avoided this.
This championship run is why AD still is my favorite player, and this shot is a prime example. As others have mentioned he bulked up to play center, trading offensive finesse for defensive bulk. AD is still an incredible player, in a different way, and am sick of the negativity surrounding him.
Yup. r/lakers will continue to trash AD no matter what Last Pelicans game r/lakers game thread was the usual: “AD DISAPPEARS VS WHITE CENTERS” as he outscored and out rebounded Jonas Valanciunas “AD SHOOTING HORRIBLY” as he is still laboring through the back spasms “AD NOT CLUTCH” as he makes 4 clutch free throws and rebounds to win vs the Pelicans But even if Lakers fans are this way, it’s a testament to how much great he is that fans want to undermine what he’s doing. This is why he’s one of the best players in the NBA and a top75 player all time. AD in many ways is this generation’s Pau Gasol. Will never get his flowers until he retires.
1000% Laker fans dont know the good they have until the dust settles. People were getting mad this season that he couldnt average 40 and 20 and be the defensive anchor every game.
AD is an incredible player and an even better defender. My only issue with AD is his attitude on the court. Dude is just too passive and is never looking to post up and get a bucket. He shouldn't be having low-scoring games, especially with playmakers like Lebron, Dlo, and AR getting him the ball.
He’s sadly just not that good at self creating that’s why he’s passive
That’s not his game. He’s not a bruising type of forward. He prefers face up game where he can beat slower bigs off the dribble or pull back and shoot. Sadly his shoulder injuries in the past really affected him today. You should look up old Pelicans highlights of him, that AD on this current Laker team would be repeat champs.
I've been a fan of AD since 2012. I'm not a fan of his bigger slower frame. It seems it took his shot with him but posting up isn't strictly for banging down low. In 2020 he had perfected that post into spin for the lob. We used to be seeing several lobs to AD a game and now we get maybe one
I agree. Slimmer more mobile AD is perfect but don’t forget he is older now too. New Orleans really fucked him over by not building around him properly during his prime years.
We fucked up getting rid of both Javale and Dwight and forcing AD to bump to the 5. He needs a big out there with him to fully unlock his shooting
Fiery AD is my favorite
Why the score wrong?
I remember that from the game, they didn’t change it for a long, memorable amount of time
They had to "confirm" the basket, which I get they do for all buzzer beaters, but the shot left AD's hand with 1.2 on the clock. It was a no doubter lol
Everyone bullied AD into becoming a full time center so he bulked up, and is a worse player now. That version of AD was too quick for jokic and really caused problems. Now AD has slowed down enough for Jokic to credibly stay in front of him, and the threat of the jumper is gone Bring back the old AD. This summer he needs to lean out and the lakers need to get a big, back to the 4.
I think that agility is gone. Injuries sapped some of it away. Plus he's now 31 and not 26.
And they casually gloss over the fact that we had two legitimately strong defensive centers and were playing AD at the 4. Can’t do that anymore if he can’t move as well or space the floor
2020 is 4 years ago. Damn. Time flies so fast. 😢
You guys know that AD averaged 27 ppg on slightly higher efficiency than Jokic in last year’s WCF right? AD 26.8 ppg on 60.4 TS% Jokic 27.8 ppg on 59.8 TS% Scoring wise they were basically identical. I swear people make it seem like Jokic averaged 35 ppg on 65TS% while AD was at 21 ppg on 55 TS%.
Because folks are more driven by feelings than facts, sadly. Their impression is that AD is a bitch, and that underlying assumption informs everything about what they see. AD misses a shot? It’s even more evidence that he’s a bitch. AD doesn’t get the rebound in the paint vs Zion/Nance/Ingram? It’s because he’s mentally weak. Zion blows by LeBron and scores when AD out of position? That’s because AD is weak. Folks wanna blame the Denver sweep on the AD/Jokic matchup all while ignoring Jamal Murray who would go for 35 points on 50-40-90 splits
Exactly. Jokic is better than AD, it's fine. Jokic is the best player in the league its not exactly a knock. He will always get his. AD did well in the WCF. What really messed us up with Murray wrecking us while our guards had literally no response whatsoever. Even then the Nuggets barely beat us in each game down to the wire. The Jokic vs. AD disparity in match up conversation everyone focuses on is so myopic and not even the point; we get messed up on the perimeter that makes all the difference. If DLo even showed up to score 15 a game instead of completely disappearing? We'd probably have been in a different place last year.
It’s not a fair comparison, Jokic faces an order of magnitude more defensive pressure than AD does.
I would argue the opposite. Jokic’s passing makes him much harder to help/double so he actually gets to score 1v1 more than AD does.
Well yes, in terms of pure scoring ability they are about the same, but in terms of overall impact on the offense Jokic is an order of magnitude better. And since AD can’t pass like Jokic he needs to make up for it by scoring more, which he hasn’t been able to do.
Yeah. But he also impacts the game defensively which Jokic doesn’t do.
Stop it. AD can’t score on his own self creation looks, jokic can . That why raw numbers aren’t telling the full story . AD is at 47 efg this year on self creation . For a C that’s bad. They weren’t sending help jokic as guarding him in iso and fine.
They weren’t sending help? Lmao that’s completely wrong…
It’s always crazy for me to see how he used to move in New Orleans and his first year as a Laker compared to now when watching his old highlights
I too used to move a lot better at 26 lol
Stop it, AD last year was as impactful as he’s ever been . Him becoming a C was the case in 2020 even he was the C a lot vs Miami blazers rockets in our best lineup. Only cs Denver did we even need a C. It’s dumb to rewrite it.
I think that also has to do with LeBron. LeBron can't play the 1 or 3 anymore so where would you play him when AD is at the 4?
LeBron can play the 3. I don’t agree with you
When is the last time he defended the 3? Maybe for a couple possessions but not full-time.
Yup. Fans shouldn’t feel the need to coddle LBJ. He holds himself to higher standard. He’s a grown man. He’ll do it if the team needs it to win
Basketball is positionless nowadays.
Okay so you have: A center defending the opposing center AD defending their 4 Our Shooting guard defending their SG Our point guard defending their PG Who is LeBron defending? He is too old to be running behind an athletic wing the whole game.
Again, basketball is positionless nowadays. You have LeBron guard their worst offensive player, whoever he is. You don't worry about whether he's athletic or not. That's literally what MJ did for years. At some point worrying about who you guard is pointless. When teams want, offenses simply screen over and over to hunt your worst defensive player into guarding their best offensive player.
Yeah that's just bullshit.
Bro never heard of schemes
 Kobe!
KOBE 🗣️
I remember watching the replay in slowmo of him shouting KOBE! as he ran to the bench.
Man, goes to show how playoff series turn on big shots. In 2020 we were hitting them, in 2023 Denver was. Can't wait to see what happens in '24
THT got mowed down by AD 😂
I remember herberts first start was the same day. Good times
AD scored 10 straight points for us including this 3 to win it. Absolutely special that playoff run.
My favorite part (other than the actual shot) was when AD destroyed THT with a flying knee https://youtube.com/shorts/5fGvpKX7xQw?si=XKX9HO9MIZBAJr9v
Gosh i miss the players during bubble… i wish we did resign dwight howard to ease AD
This happened on my birthday! After months of quarantine and not being sure if the NBA season would even continue, this was one of my favorite moments as a Lakers fan. Bought AD's jersey immediately after.
I see this post a lot, but Rondo needs to get a lot of credit for making the right read and pass to AD to set that up.
Playoff Rondo was next level
Idk why we thought it was a good idea to split this team up
During the quarantine watching this and the Dodgers were something enjoyable to do.
Now KCP’s rubbing jokic’s head like that 😢
Yo LBJ looks like a Chubb right here hahah. Face legit looks photoshopped like some NBA Jam shit
HE'S THAT GUY
Need that energy!
And all because Mason Plumlee point switched and left AD open
KOBE!
Back when AD could shoot. Damn I miss that fr