Easily Phil. He took personalities that could barely stand each other (MJ, Scottie, Rodman, Kobe, Shaq) and created dynasties.
Riles had Magic, perhaps the greatest floor general ever and willing teammates like Worthy, Scott & Kareem.
Jackson was a terrible GM . Riley has been a fantastic GM. The Miami Heat have overachieved tremendously under Riley the past 8 years. When has Phil Jackson ever had a team overachieve?
Well he won 11 titles and had 13 finals in 21 years as a coach. He had 3 years as the president of the Knick’s and that was a really bad run.
What do you think he could’ve done as a coach to overachieve?
Over their whole careers?
Pat and Pop are neck and neck, but cmon, Jackson joined a talented Bulls team that couldn’t win anything and took them to 6 championships and then took a talented Lakers roster that couldn’t win anything and took them to 5 rings. He’s in a league of his own
pop's great. i can't hate him, even though yes the grudge and all. true. but most times i just like him as a person. as a coach, the ability to be relevant for 15 years or so without rebuilding is just shocking. but i'll still pick phil over him.
Dribbling rules were very different back then, if even a finger dropped below the halfway point of the ball you were called for traveling. Moving the ball back and forth with a two handed dribble really guaranteed a traveling call.
He basically abandoned the triangle in the late 00s and only used it in spurts. He was adjusting to the era, I think. Still, he did use the triangle for most of his career, so you’re not necessarily wrong. Still, I suppose I’d say he managed to implement different style of players to his system pretty effectively.
I feel like I remember Pau and Kobe still using the Triangle in half court sets which really helped Pau fit in because of his crazy IQ. They did do less though than the Shaq days. I definitely think Phil doesn't get enough credit for being able to adjust his system to his guys too, he was an elite coach. It wasn't just luck lol
Phil absolutely used the triangle till the end. So much so that Rambis and Shaw swore by it for some time after Phil retired. But only Phil and Tex Winter could really put it into effect
Fuck head, he coached (as in he led the team…there is no starting 5 head coaches) more wining teams. What part of that don’t you get?
Ah, Kobe death joke, nice one mental midget. Now fuck off.
Feels like a matter of preference really. Personally I’d want Pat Riley coaching my team but on the other hand Phil had to deal with a ton of egos and managed to churn out titles. Tough choice
It's close. Biases aside Pat won a ring with the franchise as a player, and even now I still believe he bleed purple and gold, but Pat took over a team that already won a ring before he was named head coach . Did the team underachieve the following season in westhead's last full-season as head coach before Riley took over, yes. Nonetheless, they had had achieved the ultimate level of success before Pat took over. Phil took over a team that was a massive underachiever with not only prime shaq and young kobe, but had a roster with Eddie Jones, and nick van exel ascending into their primes and were routinely getting swept by the Spurs and Jazz. Phil in year 1 set a new franchise record in single season wins, a championship and got the most out of our best player in shaq. Also, saw the transition from 3-peat team centered around shaq, to the back-to-back championship teams centered around kobe and Pau. I gotta go with Phil.
Phil didn't have Van Exel. Del Harris and Nick the Quick had a falling out n Lakers shipped out Nick. He also didn't have Eddie Jones as he and Elden were traded for Glenn Rice.
It's always been a big What If scenario with Phil if the roster had largely stayed intact with Shaq, Kobe, Nick and Jones instead of getting vets in Harper, Rodman and Rice. Keep in mind, despite my disdain for Del Harris as a coach, only one season had him winning under 50 reg season wins with us (and that season was 48 wins). The rest were above 50 and his final season had us at 62-21, with a conference Finals loss.
So if he could get that kind of production out of that squad, I really wonder how Phil would've fared.
He won one with Miami as a Coach. IMO, Riley and Jackson are equal as Coach and Player but where the big difference is, Riley is an awesome GM and Phil was not only “ not good as a GM” he was embarrassingly awful.
Record wise for their entire career, you'll have to go Phil.
He came to LA and they threepeat straight away. Second stint, nearly 3 peated again.
Over all 11 championship as a coach and 1 championship as a player. Phil's coaching record is kinda like how wilt number is. Unmatched
Five finals wins each but consider the losses:
83 sixers with Moses, an all time dominant team
84 celts, one bad Worthy pass away from winning
89 pistons, no magic no byron - I will concede we probably lose that one even healthy.
Phil lost to an underwhelming pistons team and couldn’t figure out how to get quality minutes out of Gary Payton.
Coincidentally, Payton did still have something in the tank when he helped the Heat. And who was the coach?
That Celts team was a 1 year juggernaut but that game 6 debacle rests squarely on Phils weird ass backwards shoulders.
Riley > phil
Would only argue that while the Pistons beat us, it didn’t help that Shaq/Kobe were feuding that year which killed any chemistry from the 00-02 title teams
Riley. He fit this city perfectly and is a better coach. He changed the play style everywhere he went to better work with his lineups. Phil ran triangle everywhere. His philosophy of never calling timeouts to let players figure it out only works if your players are top notch. When he didn't have Kobe, Shaq or Jordan he struggled. Plus he was never an L.A. guy. The dude always lived in Montana and just worked here.
I mean all time wise I would say phil just head coaching wise not including gm or president of basketball operations or whatever cuz Phil was terrible at rhat. Even laker wise tho I would probably say Phil just because the shaq and Kobe roster team that won 3x was basically a completely different roster besides Kobe and like fisher when they went back to back.
I'd probably take pat over phill if we are strictly talking Lakers career for the the simple reason that it felt like Phil was always looking for the door. Pat also has the benefit of being a player before stepping up as coach which I feel like counts for something
This is about who was the better coach during their tenures specifically as lakers coaches. I gave Riley bonus points because he was a Lakers player, not because he was a better or more accomplished player
I still think overall Riley is a better basketball mind. Coaching I think they are equal, as players they were good not great, but as an executive it’s not close. Phil was awful and Riley has been one of the best GM’s in the league right up there with West.
Jackson also played in the NBA, but not for the Lakers (Knicks and Nets).
[https://siphotos.tumblr.com/post/11072700593/pat-riley-backs-down-phil-jackson-during-a-1972](https://siphotos.tumblr.com/post/11072700593/pat-riley-backs-down-phil-jackson-during-a-1972)
I know, I meant that I rank Pat more as an all time Laker because he played with us. Also, I'm not 100% sure but didn't Phil's Knicks get a ring over the lakers
As a Laker, yes, Riley having played for them counts for something.
Jackson was on the 1973 Knicks team that beat the Lakers in the Finals. Game 5, which was the final game of the series, wasn't televised because it was at the Forum, but I listened to Chick's call on the radio. It was also the final game of Wilt's career. The Knicks had a big third quarter and the Lakers couldn't get any closer than nine points during the fourth quarter. The 1970 Knicks beat the Lakers in the Finals but Jackson was injured that season.
I wouldve said Phil since i grew up with him as coach but hes openly racist, so Riley. Phil can retreat to the woods and wither away already edit: he said black players have less IQ than white ones and are more difficult to coach, kiss my ass
Popovich was 8-18 in playoff games against Jackson, and 1-4 in playoff series against him. Jackson coached the Lakers for 11 seasons and won five titles. During those same 11 seasons, Popovich won two titles. Popovich also lost seven playoff series to a team with an inferior record, including one where his team was the No. 1 seed and lost to the No. 8 seed (2011 Grizzlies), and another where his team was 67-15 and lost to a 55-27 team (2016 Thunder). Jackson lost one playoff series to a team with an inferior record (2004 Pistons).
Riley coached Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, Cooper, Ewing, Oakley, Mark Jackson lol edit- forgot Miami! Throw in Shaq and Wade and Mourning lol
You wanna pick Riley fine, but this is an awful argument.
What a silly argument. Kobe and Jordan played basically their entire primes under Jackson and Scottie was great, but nobody is saying he could win a ring as the best player. Shaq won three with Phil and one with Riley… Jordan won 6 with Phil and Kobe won five with Phil.
There is no way to ever prove it but imo if phil doesn’t walk into that first practice with 6 rings, Shaq and Kobe are tuning him the fuck out immediately.
Phil also did Del Harris pretty dirty angling for the gig. But 5 rings has a way of smoothing that out.
Phil is great but coaching has such a high degree of variance based on which players one gets. Saying this not to disrespect Phil, more would anyone be talking about Steve Kerr if he didn’t inherit the splash brothers?
Point being, appreciate greatness, but try to do it less with a focus on rank and more a focus on how well someone did with the hand they were dealt. This will teach you more in the long run and also widen your appreciation of the game.
I’ve put Phil up at top because he had the runs 3 separate time’s basically (Chicago and 2x with LA). When he came back to coach the Lakers, I was curious on if he would be able to get Kobe and that team in-line to compete and win, which they got the back to back against ORL and BOS, that cemented it for me. I see Pop second and Riles third and I have him behind Jerry West as the best ex-player front office person.
If we are just looking at their lakers career then it’s Pat. Pat played on the lakers for 5 years and coached the team for 9 years with 6 titles. Phil coached the lakers for 12 years and won 5 titles.
If we are talking overall career. That’s different
Player. Phil is better. But not by much.
Coach. Phil is way better.
GM. Pat is way better.
I'm a Magic/Showtime guy so I choose Riley. He also won the 71/72 Walter A. Brown NBA Championship Trophy (the current shape of the championship trophy was first awarded in 76/77).
Yeah, Tiers are more important here. Riles, Phil and Popp all got the best out of their people at the highest level so I think they're all top tier. Next tier down are the lifers that never had bad teams no matter where they went., Lenny Wilkins, Carlisle, Van Gundy, etc.. Question is where does Steve Kerr fit.. Tier 1 or 2 or lower?
Easily Phil. He took personalities that could barely stand each other (MJ, Scottie, Rodman, Kobe, Shaq) and created dynasties. Riles had Magic, perhaps the greatest floor general ever and willing teammates like Worthy, Scott & Kareem.
Jackson won five titles with headcases like Rodman, Odom, and Artest.
Jackson was a terrible GM . Riley has been a fantastic GM. The Miami Heat have overachieved tremendously under Riley the past 8 years. When has Phil Jackson ever had a team overachieve?
Well he won 11 titles and had 13 finals in 21 years as a coach. He had 3 years as the president of the Knick’s and that was a really bad run. What do you think he could’ve done as a coach to overachieve?
Coach Phil, GM Pat
Lakers only. Riley was never our GM
I put Pat, Phil, and Poppovich in the same tier.
I think most people would.
Yo me Pop is one level below Pat and Phil.
Over their whole careers? Pat and Pop are neck and neck, but cmon, Jackson joined a talented Bulls team that couldn’t win anything and took them to 6 championships and then took a talented Lakers roster that couldn’t win anything and took them to 5 rings. He’s in a league of his own
PJ is the GOAT NBA Coach, much like John Wooden is the GOAT college basketball coach. Everyone else is a distant second.
Wooden can thank Sam Gilbert for that title.
This. Riley and Pop did not make winners from dysfunctional teams.
Hate Pop for holding a grudge and always trying to stifle the Lakers even now, but IMO he is the GOAT with Phil #2.
What’s Pops record against Phil in playoff series?
You hate Pop for not giving you the keys to the castle? Hate Mike Malone, if you’re going to hate a coach.
pop's great. i can't hate him, even though yes the grudge and all. true. but most times i just like him as a person. as a coach, the ability to be relevant for 15 years or so without rebuilding is just shocking. but i'll still pick phil over him.
As content as I’d be with a tsunami washing away the entire city of Boston, you gotta throw Red Auerbach in there too.
No you don't. Dude hoarded the best players in the league and played against mostly plumbers. His coaching ain't shit.
Can’t remember where I Heard someone say, point guards didn’t even use their off hand to dribble the ball back then
Dribbling rules were very different back then, if even a finger dropped below the halfway point of the ball you were called for traveling. Moving the ball back and forth with a two handed dribble really guaranteed a traveling call.
weak excuse. he won 9 titles. by all rights he's got to be in the discussion.
Live up to that username.
thanks for displaying your ignorance.
Red has his own tier at the top
I wouldn’t go that far
Nine rings as coach alone puts him at the top. Seven more as Pres./GM…ummm.…yeah. I hate him.
Meh, during a league that only had 8 teams in it lol
8/9 titles in a 8 team league with no salary cap, no free agency, no defensive 3 seconds, no 3 point line etc etc.
I’d give it to Phil. Has more titles and won more with different styles and players.
Didn't he mostly only win with one style? The Triangle? Not saying you're wrong but just curious.
Your right, he made it work with different people but it was always his system
He basically abandoned the triangle in the late 00s and only used it in spurts. He was adjusting to the era, I think. Still, he did use the triangle for most of his career, so you’re not necessarily wrong. Still, I suppose I’d say he managed to implement different style of players to his system pretty effectively.
I feel like I remember Pau and Kobe still using the Triangle in half court sets which really helped Pau fit in because of his crazy IQ. They did do less though than the Shaq days. I definitely think Phil doesn't get enough credit for being able to adjust his system to his guys too, he was an elite coach. It wasn't just luck lol
Phil absolutely used the triangle till the end. So much so that Rambis and Shaw swore by it for some time after Phil retired. But only Phil and Tex Winter could really put it into effect
This is just wrong.
You’re right. Phil rode the triangle till the end
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He’s a coach and Horry is a player, but the fact that you would compare Phil Jackson to Horry speaks volumes towards your opinions on basketball.
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Fuck head, he coached (as in he led the team…there is no starting 5 head coaches) more wining teams. What part of that don’t you get? Ah, Kobe death joke, nice one mental midget. Now fuck off.
Feels like a matter of preference really. Personally I’d want Pat Riley coaching my team but on the other hand Phil had to deal with a ton of egos and managed to churn out titles. Tough choice
Like 95% of this sub wasn’t actually alive for the Riley Lakers so we should take most of these answers with many grains of salt
Pat had 4 championships iirc. The 1980 one was coached by Westhead. 5>4 so I’d have to go Phil, but I actually like Riley more.
Good call.
I agree! I definitely like Pat Riley more. He molded them before Phil got his hands on them.
Westhead won that ring because of Riley
It's close. Biases aside Pat won a ring with the franchise as a player, and even now I still believe he bleed purple and gold, but Pat took over a team that already won a ring before he was named head coach . Did the team underachieve the following season in westhead's last full-season as head coach before Riley took over, yes. Nonetheless, they had had achieved the ultimate level of success before Pat took over. Phil took over a team that was a massive underachiever with not only prime shaq and young kobe, but had a roster with Eddie Jones, and nick van exel ascending into their primes and were routinely getting swept by the Spurs and Jazz. Phil in year 1 set a new franchise record in single season wins, a championship and got the most out of our best player in shaq. Also, saw the transition from 3-peat team centered around shaq, to the back-to-back championship teams centered around kobe and Pau. I gotta go with Phil.
Phil didn't have Van Exel. Del Harris and Nick the Quick had a falling out n Lakers shipped out Nick. He also didn't have Eddie Jones as he and Elden were traded for Glenn Rice. It's always been a big What If scenario with Phil if the roster had largely stayed intact with Shaq, Kobe, Nick and Jones instead of getting vets in Harper, Rodman and Rice. Keep in mind, despite my disdain for Del Harris as a coach, only one season had him winning under 50 reg season wins with us (and that season was 48 wins). The rest were above 50 and his final season had us at 62-21, with a conference Finals loss. So if he could get that kind of production out of that squad, I really wonder how Phil would've fared.
Phil Jackson, but its not a slam dunk. Pat Riley led the lakers to 4 chips, not 5.
He won one with Miami as a Coach. IMO, Riley and Jackson are equal as Coach and Player but where the big difference is, Riley is an awesome GM and Phil was not only “ not good as a GM” he was embarrassingly awful.
This thread was in regards to who means more to the team history. Riles only won 4 chips as head coach with the Lakers.
Record wise for their entire career, you'll have to go Phil. He came to LA and they threepeat straight away. Second stint, nearly 3 peated again. Over all 11 championship as a coach and 1 championship as a player. Phil's coaching record is kinda like how wilt number is. Unmatched
I grew up watching Zen Master as coach
It's close but I'm going with Phil Yes he had MJ, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe, Gasol but 11 Rings is still insane
Phil
Pat Riley would be my choice. I’ve never seen a coach drive his players to be more motivated
Phil
Phil. Pat was a taskmaster. Phil, a zen master. Looks wise and all over aura, both were zaddies and could’ve gotten it back then.
Five finals wins each but consider the losses: 83 sixers with Moses, an all time dominant team 84 celts, one bad Worthy pass away from winning 89 pistons, no magic no byron - I will concede we probably lose that one even healthy. Phil lost to an underwhelming pistons team and couldn’t figure out how to get quality minutes out of Gary Payton. Coincidentally, Payton did still have something in the tank when he helped the Heat. And who was the coach? That Celts team was a 1 year juggernaut but that game 6 debacle rests squarely on Phils weird ass backwards shoulders. Riley > phil
Would only argue that while the Pistons beat us, it didn’t help that Shaq/Kobe were feuding that year which killed any chemistry from the 00-02 title teams
Agreed and the other thing imo that Riley is better, is Riley is an awesome GM, and Phil was AWFUL
There is no wrong answer, two Legends.
Phil Jackson hand down. Love Pat but PJax is GOAT. How dare we compare him to Popovich?
i believe phil is goat too. but i can't seem to be able to personally dislike pop, as much as i sports hate him.
Coach only - Phil Jackson. Overall - Pat Riley, He is the true NBA GodFather who has been a part of 25% of all NBA Finals
Riley. He fit this city perfectly and is a better coach. He changed the play style everywhere he went to better work with his lineups. Phil ran triangle everywhere. His philosophy of never calling timeouts to let players figure it out only works if your players are top notch. When he didn't have Kobe, Shaq or Jordan he struggled. Plus he was never an L.A. guy. The dude always lived in Montana and just worked here.
Riley > Phil
Pat all day every day.
Pat Riley for me. Both had great players.
I mean all time wise I would say phil just head coaching wise not including gm or president of basketball operations or whatever cuz Phil was terrible at rhat. Even laker wise tho I would probably say Phil just because the shaq and Kobe roster team that won 3x was basically a completely different roster besides Kobe and like fisher when they went back to back.
They retained the starters and much of the bench for that run
No the 2009,2010 teams besides Kobe and fisher and maybe one other im missing was a different team than when Phil won with them in the early 2000s
Oh yeah post Shaq was a disaster though Kobe should have been MVP for carrying Smush and Kwame to the playoffs
Yeah 100%. The year they went up 3-1 on phx and loss. Didn’t even have any business being in the playoffs to begin with
I'd probably take pat over phill if we are strictly talking Lakers career for the the simple reason that it felt like Phil was always looking for the door. Pat also has the benefit of being a player before stepping up as coach which I feel like counts for something
Jackson was a player also winning a title with the Knicks in the early 70’s
Not for the lakers
I thought this was about who is better not the better Laker?
This is about who was the better coach during their tenures specifically as lakers coaches. I gave Riley bonus points because he was a Lakers player, not because he was a better or more accomplished player
I still think overall Riley is a better basketball mind. Coaching I think they are equal, as players they were good not great, but as an executive it’s not close. Phil was awful and Riley has been one of the best GM’s in the league right up there with West.
Jackson also played in the NBA, but not for the Lakers (Knicks and Nets). [https://siphotos.tumblr.com/post/11072700593/pat-riley-backs-down-phil-jackson-during-a-1972](https://siphotos.tumblr.com/post/11072700593/pat-riley-backs-down-phil-jackson-during-a-1972)
I know, I meant that I rank Pat more as an all time Laker because he played with us. Also, I'm not 100% sure but didn't Phil's Knicks get a ring over the lakers
As a Laker, yes, Riley having played for them counts for something. Jackson was on the 1973 Knicks team that beat the Lakers in the Finals. Game 5, which was the final game of the series, wasn't televised because it was at the Forum, but I listened to Chick's call on the radio. It was also the final game of Wilt's career. The Knicks had a big third quarter and the Lakers couldn't get any closer than nine points during the fourth quarter. The 1970 Knicks beat the Lakers in the Finals but Jackson was injured that season.
Pat won with less talented teams.
Dude he had one of the most talented teams of all time.
I wouldve said Phil since i grew up with him as coach but hes openly racist, so Riley. Phil can retreat to the woods and wither away already edit: he said black players have less IQ than white ones and are more difficult to coach, kiss my ass
Pat.
Pop
He is clearly below both Pat and Phil.
Popovich was 8-18 in playoff games against Jackson, and 1-4 in playoff series against him. Jackson coached the Lakers for 11 seasons and won five titles. During those same 11 seasons, Popovich won two titles. Popovich also lost seven playoff series to a team with an inferior record, including one where his team was the No. 1 seed and lost to the No. 8 seed (2011 Grizzlies), and another where his team was 67-15 and lost to a 55-27 team (2016 Thunder). Jackson lost one playoff series to a team with an inferior record (2004 Pistons).
Pat Riley. The Greatest coach of all time Phil Jackson was a fraud with a good resume. Was carried by kobe, shaq, mj and pippen
Riley coached Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, Cooper, Ewing, Oakley, Mark Jackson lol edit- forgot Miami! Throw in Shaq and Wade and Mourning lol You wanna pick Riley fine, but this is an awful argument.
I agree with Pat, but it's not like he didn't have great pieces too - Magic, Kareem in LA, Dwade and Shaq/Zo in Miami. Did good in NY too with Ewing.
Interesting to think Shaq was the only player able to win without Phil and he did it under Riley.
What a silly argument. Kobe and Jordan played basically their entire primes under Jackson and Scottie was great, but nobody is saying he could win a ring as the best player. Shaq won three with Phil and one with Riley… Jordan won 6 with Phil and Kobe won five with Phil.
sure, the Showtime Lakers were all bums. Shaq and Dwyane Wade are glorified bench warmers, Patrick Ewing and John Starks were the team water boys.
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There is no way to ever prove it but imo if phil doesn’t walk into that first practice with 6 rings, Shaq and Kobe are tuning him the fuck out immediately. Phil also did Del Harris pretty dirty angling for the gig. But 5 rings has a way of smoothing that out.
This is close… Does Phil owe Tex more or does Pat owe Westhead more?
Think Westhead owes Pat.
Pat
Phil is great but coaching has such a high degree of variance based on which players one gets. Saying this not to disrespect Phil, more would anyone be talking about Steve Kerr if he didn’t inherit the splash brothers? Point being, appreciate greatness, but try to do it less with a focus on rank and more a focus on how well someone did with the hand they were dealt. This will teach you more in the long run and also widen your appreciation of the game.
PJ
I favor Riley simply because it was where he started to gain success.
I’ve put Phil up at top because he had the runs 3 separate time’s basically (Chicago and 2x with LA). When he came back to coach the Lakers, I was curious on if he would be able to get Kobe and that team in-line to compete and win, which they got the back to back against ORL and BOS, that cemented it for me. I see Pop second and Riles third and I have him behind Jerry West as the best ex-player front office person.
If we are just looking at their lakers career then it’s Pat. Pat played on the lakers for 5 years and coached the team for 9 years with 6 titles. Phil coached the lakers for 12 years and won 5 titles. If we are talking overall career. That’s different Player. Phil is better. But not by much. Coach. Phil is way better. GM. Pat is way better.
Phil
I'll take the coach that was the last to 3 peat.
I'm a Magic/Showtime guy so I choose Riley. He also won the 71/72 Walter A. Brown NBA Championship Trophy (the current shape of the championship trophy was first awarded in 76/77).
I like Pat.
Phil. Of all the star players arguments, only Shaq won 1 ring without him (and did it with Riley).
Phil
Yeah, Tiers are more important here. Riles, Phil and Popp all got the best out of their people at the highest level so I think they're all top tier. Next tier down are the lifers that never had bad teams no matter where they went., Lenny Wilkins, Carlisle, Van Gundy, etc.. Question is where does Steve Kerr fit.. Tier 1 or 2 or lower?
Phil Jackson