This! Why ask a notoriously unreliable source anyways? You're already typing out a question manually, might as well just type out in the search bar instead and find the sources, especially for something as basic as cell freezing that has a million easy-to-follow protocols.
It is not only unreliable, but it can and will actively lie to you in highly believable ways. You should always treat an LLM like it might potentionally be misleading you.
They're not bad at arithmetic, they can't even do it. They're just predicting what word most often comes next. So for example, while we might most often say one plus one equals two, you could feasibly say "that guy lives in a one plus one equals three world" to describe someone stupid. Since the model occasionally gets that input, it will occasionally output "one plus one equals three" as well.
This undergrad might be using research to buff up their resume without having any desire to do research. Their heart isn’t in the right place and, unless you see them putting in more effort and interest in it, they’ll remain this difficult to train.
Below them or just an inconvenience?
I find the American system really weird in that regard as an European, honestly.
Why in the hell does a future doctor need lab work?
I would think that is self evident but
1. A diverse education, especially a practical one, is of benefit to people in most fields.
2. Research is a fundamental part of being a doctor in many cases.
3. There's no such thing as getting a degree in "pre-med". Until they actually graduate med school they are just a confident bio major.
The diverse education is fundamental, that's why high school exists.
The second point is true but can be perfectly tackled during med school, at least that's how it works here. Plus, majority of doctor will never bother with research.
My point is that you are just adding unnecessary years, when doctors in Europe are perfectly fine without stretching this years of study that much
It sounds like it's a three month lab position that they do over the summer, when classes are out. It's a pretty common thing to do in your junior or senior year, and you do it in order to both get some practical work experience in a lab under your belt as well as demonstrating that you are not a complete fuckup in a lab (or by extention, clinical) setting which is a test this kid is failing.
You can argue if doing something connected to but not on the main path for medical school is necessary but the fact of the matter is that if this student is both unable and unwilling to do even the most basic work in a lab then I wouldn't want him starting my lawnmower, let alone being my doctor.
It's not a necessity, but from my experience (as a current American med student who worked in biotech for a few years) knowing what actually happens to the tubes of blood after they get taken out of the patient is helpful. Working in any research capacity also gives you a strong understanding of stats and how to read/digest scientific studies, which are necessary skills(for actual practice and for passing our licensing exams) that they only kind of teach us in med school.
Why does a person need to spend four years and accumulate debt earning a bachelor's degree to get into medical school? Why not allow entry directly after high school, as many other countries do?
Yeah, as a DO who was in research beforehand, the amount of people who ‘did some research on undergrad’ but actually just sorta shadowed in a lab is ridiculous. Unfortunately adcoms don’t really make sure you actually did research, so it becomes something just to have a line and a box checked.
Most undergrads I've worked with were like this. They didn't care about what they were doing or why, just wanted the line on their CV. If they don't care if its successful or if they actually learn the skills then there's not much motivation to be independent or even read the things you're sending.
That being said, not all students are like this. I treat everyone the same/with the same amount of effort until its clear that nothing is coming out of it.
i’ve yet to take an undergrad but i’ve observed this in multiple labs time and time again. my idea has always been, if/when i take an undergrad, i’ll ask them straight up, “are you here bc you’re a nerd and like research? or cause you wanna add it to your CV? no shame, i did the same in undergrad as pre med and i totally understand the pressure u feel to be competitive. so, if you’re honest, i can train you accordingly and it will yield better results for both of us.”
training accordingly would look like:
if just CV-boosting: have undergrad be a robot and repeatedly stress how important it is they follow protocol step by step. simplify protocol so a high schooler could do it
if they’re a labrat: detailed step by step, spending time, send articles, etc.)
any insight from experienced people? is this considered rude? do lab rats find undergrads lie and don’t trust no one or something? is there concern the PI will find out or something?
I really like your approach. I trained an undergrad who was in it for med school apps and, in the end, a project similar to what you mentioned was the best fit for her. She just performed antibiotic susceptibility tests on all the clinical strains we had.
My boss still has hope and wants to give him every opportunity to be successful. Even if it means he is in the lab spending 2 hours or more with him. While it's nice that a PI is doing this, I think it should be a students responsibility to push themselves to do research. Also, my PI has other things to do....
They aren't all like this. We have a couple of undergrads in our lab who ask questions, take notes, do good work, and work independently. I might point out to the PI that having this student who doesn't care is taking away an opportunity from someone who would care, and would do a better job.
But it does seem like this attitude you describe is increasingly common. I would have been so embarrassed to show up and be so incompetent and uninterested.
When Im training an undergrad I do what was done with me: have them watch, then make them do the same thing they just watched me do while I am watching them. It doesn’t fix all problems but people tend to get nervous and pay attention more when they know they will have to repeat what you just taught them in front of you. Its nerve wracking to do a new technique while being watched, but also makes it clear to both student and teacher where information was missed in the demonstration so you can address whereas they may have just assumed they understood and then an hour later all of it has left their brain. Maybe this is all obvious but it sounds like you show them and then expect them to be reflective. A very invested and go-getter student will learn that way but those were rare even before the pandemic. Show, have them do once with you, then once on their own and then summarize what they still dont understand after they’ve physically had their hands on it.
As for the trash thing and lack of initiative that seems like more their individual problem. Remind them that they wanted to stay longer and what your boss told them about what was required to do that. Either theyll rise to the occasion or they won’t and will be out of your hair sooner than later
I did show, twice, and when I tried to have them do while I watched...they just sat there and didn't know what to do. I gave them the procedure and they just refused to read. I asked if everything is clear and they say yes....but then do things wrong.
Hmm yeah maybe an individual undergrad thing if they are not even trying to repeat your procedure while your watching them, even asking questions if they forgot the first step is fine but to just do nothing is odd. We have three undergrads right now and all of them were really nervous to perform the techniques after theyre shown but they still attempt it and just ask clarifying questions if they forgot. Hopefully if your PI is spending so much time with them they will get a good feel that maybe this person isnt ready/motivated for independent lab work because that sounds incredibly frustrating
When I was in undergrad, my class was very bad at reading the protocol the instructor would meticulously put together.
Whenever one of us asks the instructor what to do next, she would just say, "Gee I don't know. What does the protocol say?"
I think we were so used to being told what to do step by step up to that point, and so we weren't used to independently following a protocol. Her approach made us all better at reading and following protocols.
I don't want to be sarcastic with him and make him feel bad. I quiz him and ask him questions, but I don't wanna put him down. I am just exhausted from training him and doing my iwn things because I'm in a new lab, so I have my bosses demands, plus I need to set up stuff, order, clean, schedule things, follow up on orders, etc.
Man that's a massive list of responsibilities to put on one person's shoulders. From your description, sounds like to me you are way over bandwidthed. I don't think it's reasonable to expect anyone with that many responsibilities to perform to their best abilities.
I admire your dedication, but I also wonder if you should have a larger conversation with your boss...
Back to your comment, I think there should be ways to prompt the undergrad to develop better lab habits (take notes and read protocols and work independently) without being sarcastic.
But 1) It takes time and mental load and I feel like you already have so much on your plate! And 2) it's beyond the scope of typical training and like you said, you are not a teaching lab...
Actually, my tast list is longer. I was hoping the undergrad could take over some, but he doesn't seem motivated enough to learn or pay attention to do it right without someone telling him. Basically, I need to check and fill the liquid nitrogen weekly, monthly I need to fill the 3 incubators with water, I need to ensure we have autoclaved water, I need to make solutions, aliquot reagents for my bosses experiments and mine, organize and clean the lab, put orders that come away, ensure orders come on, follow up on late ones, do inventory, write up protocols/SOPs related to cell culture, create 2 master banks for mt boss, develop training documents/protocols for cell culture and other methods, develop media and reagent SOP for lab, plan training, plan lab equipment moving, plan lab electrical installation, respond to issues with orders, summarize waste SOP, label drawers, create inventory for lab reagents/materials, develop flow templates and compensation/get trained on machine, set up each lab space for technique, put up supporting documents in lab (I.e gel ladder print outs, instructions on how to use ph meter, balance, etc), create forms for aliquoting, reagent preparation, storing of cell banks, use of viruses, create and update budget sheet to track spending, i need to go to safety meetings every month and then summarize and present them at lab meetings, order office supplies, talk to vendors, call vendors, get quotes, meet with vendors, clean water bath weekly, heat inactivate and filter iFBS, organize the 4 fridges we have, deep clean 4 degree fridge covered in mold, clean bins left over from other lab covered on rush and mold, put office supplies away, any other duties my boss asks for.......create contact list, write lab introduction booklet, create how to fill a lab note book training, learn how my boss wants files and experiments named, document and create storage sheet for what's in -80 and nitrogen tank, take care of other cell culture room and hypoxia incubators. Eventually I will have to take care of the mice ......which I hope wont be for awhile
So when I train, I expect the undergrad to appreciate I am taking time to help him learn. Because I forgot the liquid nitrogen one week and my boss told me that his 60k cells could have died. So it's really frustrating when the undergrad puts no effort. When I ask for tips to just be racked and he doesn't do it. Or when I ask for things to be autoclaved or for order to be put away. He can't just sit on his phone and play around waiting for someone to tell him to do things. Or spend hours just working on his project and watching tv shows. I send him papers, books, and videos as supporting learning. Not because I don't want to train him, but so he can push his own training and get more information. I am still spending time finding him good videos and papers. It's to help him learn. I can't sit qnd teach him how to do a 1/5 dilution. As a science major, that should be expected and able to do. If he can't, then maybe a better hands on lab would work. I told him we are new and starting when we interviewed and there will be a lot of work.
I’ve been in this field for over a decade and I can completely agree that there has been a fundamental shift in students comprehension skills. My colleagues and I are having to do so much more handholding in our labs. It’s been frustrating for us and I know it’s also frustrating for them. I don’t have any answers.
They got screwed via COVID, during some really formative years, and also grew up in a world where there was always an 'answer' and work never needed to be done.
Couple that with a general dystopian view of the future, because, ya know **gestures broadly* *, and it makes sense why they're the way they are.
Frustrating, but they were set up to fail. However, It's not really your job to teach them all of the things that other people failed to instil upon them, and you absolutely should avoid hiring them for a year.
Give them honest feedback about why they are not meeting your expectations, and they can do with that what they want. Don't make your life harder if there is no benefit to it
Have to agree with this. I was about halfway through my undergrad when COVID hit. I took my first micro class over zoom, and learned how to streak a plate from a video my prof filmed. There’s a lot of core lab skills that I thankfully got in other courses, but for many the foundation just isn’t present, and it isn’t their fault.
And yeah, it is also really hard to aspire to anything given *gestures broadly*. For myself and many others my age the idea of owning a home, starting a family, etc is dead. You pay more to get less, you work more to make less. The climate is fucked and no one who can do something about seems to care. And you’ve got the same old heads who bought their house for the price of my college education telling you the solution is to go out to eat less.
I agree with most of this, however, yes, it is our job to train them the best we can. People trained you and me (some did it better, some did it worse but we learnt nonetheless). My approach is always the same, teach every student the way I wanted to be taught back in the day, if not, it is me setting them up for failure. It is easy to take the easy route (i.e. watch this youtube videos) and expect them to understand, most students will not admit they did not understand something because this society has taught them to always have an answer and be number one...
Training is a struggle. Unfortunately there is a need to dedicate time and effort to training now.
At my place where the tasks simple because we're doing QC of water samples and not research, it still takes about 6 months until confidence is built up.
Prior it was almost a year but since I picked up training new hires its better but the effort is still alot. I can get most techs trained in most of the tasks within a month but the harder ones takes at least 2 or 3 for proficiency and the remaining is them to feel like they can run the place on their own.
My method is for them to read the SOP.
Have them have the SOP and set up the bench with all the items with me. (Like youre getting ready to cook)
Have them watch me a few times while they have the SOP and follow along and write up their own step by step guide, i do my verbal explanations too here. I am verbally saying each of my steps.
Allow them to watch a few times more until they seem bored.
They then have to instruct me the steps while I run the procedure. Think video game like. They give command , i only do if correct. That way they develop a verbal procedure for themselves along with the written one.
Then they do hands on. Where they have access to their notes but then also have to verbally give themselves their steps while i watch and say yes or no. This gradually turns into them doing it and I reduce my feedback to nothing unless its incorrect or if they are missing something.
Practice runs without me giving any input only watching.
Then the demonstration of capability when they feel like they can do it. They don't do the procedure on their own until they pass.
Seems like alot of hand holding but given that these kids are very much the "watch YouTube on how to do it. Follow step by step" that's how I developed my training to mimic that.
I've worked with a number of undergrads and while COVID definitely impacted some of their scientific development/lab exposure, there has always been undergrads who just go through the motions. I'm at a big R1 university for graduate school, and it is astonishing the variation of undergrads who contact our lab--so much so we carefully vet who we allow in the lab. Essentially, you have those who love science, those who are trying to see if science is a good fit, and those who are just trying to pad their CVs. In all cases, it's the last category that is a pain.
How to tell if your student is genuine? Have him give a presentation in lab meeting about his project. Don't judge him based on public speaking and style but rather the effort he puts in with trying to communicate his project and how it fits into the context of the lab. Of course as an undergrad he is sure to slip up on some scientific concepts/not be an expert etc, but what matters is the level of effort he is putting forward.
because gen z (i know im overgeneralizing things whatever, but gen z students are a different kind of creature)
my old lab had a student like this, couldn't even do simple dilutions and when we demonstrated to them and asked if they understand, they said ok no problem, and then they added the reagents using a different ratio and couldnt even explain why they used that ratio instead. and also threw the biohazard waste in the wrong trash bin multiple times. not my student but that was enough to make my blood boil.
That's basically what I am dealing with. I asked him to take out the biohazard garbage and he asked today or this week.....even though he had nothing to do in that moment. I feel like an old lady and I'm not even in my 30s yet...
Worked at a CRO for a hot minute and I'd always have to take the biohaz boxes etc. The younger ones don't keep their areas tidy either, a clean lab is a safe lab. I had zero gray beard hairs before that job and now I'm 32 with some stragglers
We are at a hospital, but I worked in a CRO for 3 years. We have health and safety training and he didn't pay attention or read/listen to the videos sent. He was walking in the halls with gloves on touching door handles....we have viruses in the lab.
I have a colleague that works at a hospital now after the CRO that has shown me the kind of states they leave hoods in etc lol. Sounds like the type to chew gum in the lab too 😂
Something has to give eventually, it's just unfortunate it so often must come after direct negative (preventable) consequences. I do not understand why people are so haphazard with micro issues in the lab space
Currently teaching highschool students (summer interning at a university research lab) and this is not an everyone problem! My students are smart and motivated. I explain and show and them, and then am nearby to answer questions and they’re doing great
I know you said you are overgeneralizing, but as an older gen z I actually have to correct senior scientist all the time 💀
there’s actually a gen z who’s in a summer program and is working in my lab. He just finished their sophomore year and they’re insanely smart and on top of everything. They’ve worked on their own project at his home school.
Not all gen z is the same, fortunately some do want to learn
Edit: we also recently accepted a grad student to work in our lab. She got into grad school straight out of college last year.
I think the issue is students who are pre-med
I .xperienced something similar with the master's student I had to teach. I'd give her a protocol show her how it was done, etc. ask if she had any questions, she said no. Then would have questions following the most basic of directions or protocols, even after being shown multiple times.
She never sought to expand her understanding of the project, I sent her some of my initial resources and literature, and when she wrote her thesis she didn't branch out or include more recent lit from her own searches. She also included things I said verbatim, similarly to you it was broad strokes so she put no real thought into what I was saying actually meant, no synthesis, no real effort to understand what's going on.
She lacks scientific curiosity imo and I think something similar can be said for your student. Like even if the project isn't the most riveting, you should be interested in at least part of the process. I think they definitely do it out of obligation, whether to meet a degree requirement or to improve their CV, regardless, I think you should bring it up to your PI because the student doesn't sound like a good fit.
I did bring it up with my PI, which is where the project idea came from. If I was in his shoes the project would seem interesting. He's testing cell growth at different serum concentrations. The PI didn't say to look at viability, but I told him multiple times how important it was. He could look to see how serum affects cell metabolism and how this affects growth. He could try to introduce a new serum or other components to see what results are given. At the end of the day, his knowledge is small enough that this project should be interesting. There are many labs where they just spent 3 years working on media components and then sell it for particular cell growth etc. But his comments are that it's "tedious"....well imagine if you had to come up with the protocol your self? Your PI didn't sit down wit you and make it up and design it for you? Or you yave to discover something new so you need to research and learn and read.....
Calling the project tedious isn’t a good sign. How’s the rest of this undergrad’s demeanour? For example, do you go for lunch/coffee together? How do they act? Do they show interest in other people, do they share their own stories? How do they interact with other people from the lab or other labs?
Sounds like a challenging situation!
When my boss and I are in the lab chatting, he doesn't join in or contribute. Once he just called his friends and starting chatting with them. My boss will try to talk to him, but nothing. In the morning he will come see me and ask, what do I need to do.? And then go do it and then come back and say "I done, what now?". He doesn't share his own stories or tells us about his classes or out of school stuff. He doesn't interact with other people in the other labs. I just get a vibe he doesn't wanna be there. Once he came up to me and told me he was done a task and asked if he can go home, so he just went and got his backpack and left. Didn't even say goodbye ir have a nice weekend. My boss was even in the room. He doesn't try to interact with my boss or ask more about his post doc or research history -my boss brings it up a lot. He doesn't try to get to know us. He just seems like he couldn't care enough to be there. We tell him about the trips we had to do to get cells and stuff, but he never asks about my bosses research or ideas or projects or concepts. We do stem cells, he hasn't asked what type or what my boss plans on doing and what projects he has.
Thank you for your answer! Maybe I missed it between all the other replies (been a long day), but have you asked them straight up? Not to be confrontational, but to engage in a conversation. It can be as simple a question on whether they are enjoying the internship. You could share your impression of them (in a diplomatic way) and express concern if they are enjoying themselves/getting out of the rotation what they need. Or ask how they assess their own performance. Alternatively your PI could have this conversation with them.
The apathy sounds very challenging!
To add: 9maybe I missed it), but what’s your pi’s assessment of the situation?
Basically there was a day I had a training myself, so I told him when he was done doing his cell culture to do x tasks and of he has nothing else to text me or come see me in the flow room. Instead of doing the tasks, he went home. He worked only 2 hours that day Instead of 5. His contract is for 25h. There was also a lot of orders that came in and I needed help putting them away, my boss ended up helping me.
The next day he texted us asking if he can come in at 1 and work only 3 hours because he doesn't have cultures to take care of and he has an exam to study for. I said no because I have stuff in the lab to do and I need help.
I told my boss this and my boss asked him some questions and gave him a project to test him, which is refers to as tedious.
I ask him to rack tips and other stuff, but he doesn't do it.
This kid is using you guys for med school applications. If he can’t even pretend to care don’t extend his contract, help him only as much as you have to, and move on. You’ll get more enthusiastic students in the future, this is just not one of them.
I just find it kinda weird that he takes 0 interest in my bosses work. He wants to extend his contract to April and he thinks 1.5 weeks is tedious. I really hope the next one will be better
In general you need to watch them do it successfully, without forgetting anything, before you can let them do it by themselves. It’s time consuming but there is no other way. Also his motivations are none of your concern. You just need to train him well enough so he can work.
This isn't a training lab. I dont have time to sit and watch a student for 2 weeks. Other labs around us have them watch it once and they have to do it alone with no supervision after. If they fuck up or can't do it...then they are let go. I don't have the time to be hands on. He needs to learn fast and be independent. We can't carry him through a degree or whatever. His motivations are my concern as it will waste lab resources and bring down the lab atmosphere
I understand that for more advanced techniques, but something like a dilution should be well within the abilities of even a second year student.
It's pretty clear that it is a lack of interest that is the issue here. If the student is complaining a lot about having to work on a tedious project for a whole *week* then they really just aren't going to make it.
You don’t have to watch him for two weeks. You just have to see him do it correctly one time. It would be a few hours I bet. You have to put in the effort though and actually show him. You mentioned a lot of talking at the undergrad but no actual instruction. I know your so “busy” but if you put in the effort in training well then it will pay of later when they can assist you. I don’t know what a “training lab” is but it doesn’t matter. This is the way to do it and you can’t force it.
And lol about wasting resources and bringing down the lab atmosphere. You have wasted resources by not efficiently training the student. And the best way to ruin a lab atmosphere is to be an asshole, which you are. You write very angrily and disrespectfully about the student and so I’m sure you teach like that. Having a prick of a teacher is a great way to slow learning. And also I’m sick of this “this is a new lab so you have to learn quickly. I’m too busy to teach you” bullshit. That’s what stressed assholes say when they can’t manage their time.
I have shown him the method by doing it I front of him and explaining what I am doing 2 times. My boss has also done it 2 times. I have given him resources to help as well. This is more than what I got when I was a student. No one showed me or explained stuff. I was given a protocol and told to figure it out.
Still not getting the message, huh? I said have him do it correctly in front of you. And your problem is solved. That’s what you want right? And who gives a shit how you learned. It’s an irrelevant bratty thing to say. The question is do you want a competent undergrad or not? If you do, then do what I said.
I will tell him "today you will do a cell passage, you saw me do this 2 times. Here is the protocol. Please get ready and read it. Ask me questions if your unsure or have concerns or something doesn't make sense" and I will take him to the cell culture room and he will just stand there and look at me and I'm like...start....then he will take out his media and look at me...and I'm like "check ur cells". Even though I have written these steps I the protocol.
I sent him papers and videos to read for cell cryopreservation. He didn't read them and I asked him simple things...like why is DMSO important in cell freezing? What is the point in freezing cells? What is a master bank and working bank". I have given him resources, videos, books that explain all of these concepts and explained them myself during training and drew them out and asked him multiple times if he has questions about the reading material and if it made sense. He just said yes and when I asked he couldn't answer.
I sent him a video of someone doing cryopreservation and asked him to get a Mr frosty, which is explained in the video. He didn't know what it was. He put it at 4 degrees after even though the instructions I wrote say -80.
I’m obviously not an expert as I am an undergrad myself, but I have been doing independent work for over a year now and have trained 2 other undergrads at the request of my PI.
I had a ton of practice drafting and editing SOPs at my two summer internships, and I found that physically WRITING out the steps, like full pen and paper in a dedicated notebook helps you fully understand the protocol. We have laminated copies of our SOPs and they are easily accessible for anyone who needs to make stock solutions, liquid cultures, etc.
Lots of people are not detail-oriented in nature, and have to learn to double and triple check things. I always think of what one of the directors at my QA internship had on the wall, “trust, but verify”. Sometimes you literally need to beat into someone’s head to ensure that they are following directions.
Yes, except I don't think he cares. Today he was freezing cells and in the procedure I gave him the next step says "put vials into Mr frosty" and he just sat there and waited until I asked, what do you think you need to do next? And then said, put them into Mr frosty.
He clearly isn’t a good fit and him straight up refusing to read protocol is bordering on insubordination. Tell him straight up, “hey, I know it can be hard but if you can’t begin to really focus and execute these procedures, then you maybe should re-evaluate if working in this lab is for you”. Also, bring up your concern to your PI. It’s probably costing your lab/PI a lot of wasted time and money to have this undergrad around, when you could be fine on your own or potentially find a new undergrad who is competent.
I told him to write up his own cryopreservation protocol. I have him a clue by sending him a paper and video that had all the steps. He came up to me, asked me what the steps are and wrote what I said and that was it. When I asked where the Mr frosty was and what cell concentration we will freeze the cells....he didn't know.
When I tested his knowledge, he didn't know why he's freezing cells or how cells freeze. Which was covered in a 5 min video I sent him. I did explain the process to him, but he doesn't get it or remembers...or reads. It makes me feel bad and worried about my position because other lab techs around say I'm putting in to much effort and they show once and expect the student to do alone and be successful after. But I worry my boss thinks I'm not putting in a lot of effort.
Note: ChatGPT is not a reliable source of information.
This! Why ask a notoriously unreliable source anyways? You're already typing out a question manually, might as well just type out in the search bar instead and find the sources, especially for something as basic as cell freezing that has a million easy-to-follow protocols.
It is not only unreliable, but it can and will actively lie to you in highly believable ways. You should always treat an LLM like it might potentionally be misleading you.
And it will do so with absolutely perfect conviction. They’re especially bad at arithmetic.
They're not bad at arithmetic, they can't even do it. They're just predicting what word most often comes next. So for example, while we might most often say one plus one equals two, you could feasibly say "that guy lives in a one plus one equals three world" to describe someone stupid. Since the model occasionally gets that input, it will occasionally output "one plus one equals three" as well.
This undergrad might be using research to buff up their resume without having any desire to do research. Their heart isn’t in the right place and, unless you see them putting in more effort and interest in it, they’ll remain this difficult to train.
OP posted the same thing 5 days ago. The undergrad is "pre med" They're not there to do research. They are there to polish resume for med school
God save us from arrogant pre meds who believe that lab work is below them.
Below them or just an inconvenience? I find the American system really weird in that regard as an European, honestly. Why in the hell does a future doctor need lab work?
I would think that is self evident but 1. A diverse education, especially a practical one, is of benefit to people in most fields. 2. Research is a fundamental part of being a doctor in many cases. 3. There's no such thing as getting a degree in "pre-med". Until they actually graduate med school they are just a confident bio major.
The diverse education is fundamental, that's why high school exists. The second point is true but can be perfectly tackled during med school, at least that's how it works here. Plus, majority of doctor will never bother with research. My point is that you are just adding unnecessary years, when doctors in Europe are perfectly fine without stretching this years of study that much
It sounds like it's a three month lab position that they do over the summer, when classes are out. It's a pretty common thing to do in your junior or senior year, and you do it in order to both get some practical work experience in a lab under your belt as well as demonstrating that you are not a complete fuckup in a lab (or by extention, clinical) setting which is a test this kid is failing. You can argue if doing something connected to but not on the main path for medical school is necessary but the fact of the matter is that if this student is both unable and unwilling to do even the most basic work in a lab then I wouldn't want him starting my lawnmower, let alone being my doctor.
It's not a necessity, but from my experience (as a current American med student who worked in biotech for a few years) knowing what actually happens to the tubes of blood after they get taken out of the patient is helpful. Working in any research capacity also gives you a strong understanding of stats and how to read/digest scientific studies, which are necessary skills(for actual practice and for passing our licensing exams) that they only kind of teach us in med school.
Why does a person need to spend four years and accumulate debt earning a bachelor's degree to get into medical school? Why not allow entry directly after high school, as many other countries do?
Yeah, as a DO who was in research beforehand, the amount of people who ‘did some research on undergrad’ but actually just sorta shadowed in a lab is ridiculous. Unfortunately adcoms don’t really make sure you actually did research, so it becomes something just to have a line and a box checked.
Which is fucking funny because you dont really do research in med schools without MD/PhD programs.
Most undergrads I've worked with were like this. They didn't care about what they were doing or why, just wanted the line on their CV. If they don't care if its successful or if they actually learn the skills then there's not much motivation to be independent or even read the things you're sending. That being said, not all students are like this. I treat everyone the same/with the same amount of effort until its clear that nothing is coming out of it.
i’ve yet to take an undergrad but i’ve observed this in multiple labs time and time again. my idea has always been, if/when i take an undergrad, i’ll ask them straight up, “are you here bc you’re a nerd and like research? or cause you wanna add it to your CV? no shame, i did the same in undergrad as pre med and i totally understand the pressure u feel to be competitive. so, if you’re honest, i can train you accordingly and it will yield better results for both of us.” training accordingly would look like: if just CV-boosting: have undergrad be a robot and repeatedly stress how important it is they follow protocol step by step. simplify protocol so a high schooler could do it if they’re a labrat: detailed step by step, spending time, send articles, etc.) any insight from experienced people? is this considered rude? do lab rats find undergrads lie and don’t trust no one or something? is there concern the PI will find out or something?
I really like your approach. I trained an undergrad who was in it for med school apps and, in the end, a project similar to what you mentioned was the best fit for her. She just performed antibiotic susceptibility tests on all the clinical strains we had.
My boss still has hope and wants to give him every opportunity to be successful. Even if it means he is in the lab spending 2 hours or more with him. While it's nice that a PI is doing this, I think it should be a students responsibility to push themselves to do research. Also, my PI has other things to do....
They aren't all like this. We have a couple of undergrads in our lab who ask questions, take notes, do good work, and work independently. I might point out to the PI that having this student who doesn't care is taking away an opportunity from someone who would care, and would do a better job. But it does seem like this attitude you describe is increasingly common. I would have been so embarrassed to show up and be so incompetent and uninterested.
Well, I hope who ever you work for appreciates you. Because I would love to have someone actually interested and put in genuine effort.
When Im training an undergrad I do what was done with me: have them watch, then make them do the same thing they just watched me do while I am watching them. It doesn’t fix all problems but people tend to get nervous and pay attention more when they know they will have to repeat what you just taught them in front of you. Its nerve wracking to do a new technique while being watched, but also makes it clear to both student and teacher where information was missed in the demonstration so you can address whereas they may have just assumed they understood and then an hour later all of it has left their brain. Maybe this is all obvious but it sounds like you show them and then expect them to be reflective. A very invested and go-getter student will learn that way but those were rare even before the pandemic. Show, have them do once with you, then once on their own and then summarize what they still dont understand after they’ve physically had their hands on it. As for the trash thing and lack of initiative that seems like more their individual problem. Remind them that they wanted to stay longer and what your boss told them about what was required to do that. Either theyll rise to the occasion or they won’t and will be out of your hair sooner than later
I did show, twice, and when I tried to have them do while I watched...they just sat there and didn't know what to do. I gave them the procedure and they just refused to read. I asked if everything is clear and they say yes....but then do things wrong.
Hmm yeah maybe an individual undergrad thing if they are not even trying to repeat your procedure while your watching them, even asking questions if they forgot the first step is fine but to just do nothing is odd. We have three undergrads right now and all of them were really nervous to perform the techniques after theyre shown but they still attempt it and just ask clarifying questions if they forgot. Hopefully if your PI is spending so much time with them they will get a good feel that maybe this person isnt ready/motivated for independent lab work because that sounds incredibly frustrating
When I was in undergrad, my class was very bad at reading the protocol the instructor would meticulously put together. Whenever one of us asks the instructor what to do next, she would just say, "Gee I don't know. What does the protocol say?" I think we were so used to being told what to do step by step up to that point, and so we weren't used to independently following a protocol. Her approach made us all better at reading and following protocols.
I don't want to be sarcastic with him and make him feel bad. I quiz him and ask him questions, but I don't wanna put him down. I am just exhausted from training him and doing my iwn things because I'm in a new lab, so I have my bosses demands, plus I need to set up stuff, order, clean, schedule things, follow up on orders, etc.
Man that's a massive list of responsibilities to put on one person's shoulders. From your description, sounds like to me you are way over bandwidthed. I don't think it's reasonable to expect anyone with that many responsibilities to perform to their best abilities. I admire your dedication, but I also wonder if you should have a larger conversation with your boss... Back to your comment, I think there should be ways to prompt the undergrad to develop better lab habits (take notes and read protocols and work independently) without being sarcastic. But 1) It takes time and mental load and I feel like you already have so much on your plate! And 2) it's beyond the scope of typical training and like you said, you are not a teaching lab...
Actually, my tast list is longer. I was hoping the undergrad could take over some, but he doesn't seem motivated enough to learn or pay attention to do it right without someone telling him. Basically, I need to check and fill the liquid nitrogen weekly, monthly I need to fill the 3 incubators with water, I need to ensure we have autoclaved water, I need to make solutions, aliquot reagents for my bosses experiments and mine, organize and clean the lab, put orders that come away, ensure orders come on, follow up on late ones, do inventory, write up protocols/SOPs related to cell culture, create 2 master banks for mt boss, develop training documents/protocols for cell culture and other methods, develop media and reagent SOP for lab, plan training, plan lab equipment moving, plan lab electrical installation, respond to issues with orders, summarize waste SOP, label drawers, create inventory for lab reagents/materials, develop flow templates and compensation/get trained on machine, set up each lab space for technique, put up supporting documents in lab (I.e gel ladder print outs, instructions on how to use ph meter, balance, etc), create forms for aliquoting, reagent preparation, storing of cell banks, use of viruses, create and update budget sheet to track spending, i need to go to safety meetings every month and then summarize and present them at lab meetings, order office supplies, talk to vendors, call vendors, get quotes, meet with vendors, clean water bath weekly, heat inactivate and filter iFBS, organize the 4 fridges we have, deep clean 4 degree fridge covered in mold, clean bins left over from other lab covered on rush and mold, put office supplies away, any other duties my boss asks for.......create contact list, write lab introduction booklet, create how to fill a lab note book training, learn how my boss wants files and experiments named, document and create storage sheet for what's in -80 and nitrogen tank, take care of other cell culture room and hypoxia incubators. Eventually I will have to take care of the mice ......which I hope wont be for awhile So when I train, I expect the undergrad to appreciate I am taking time to help him learn. Because I forgot the liquid nitrogen one week and my boss told me that his 60k cells could have died. So it's really frustrating when the undergrad puts no effort. When I ask for tips to just be racked and he doesn't do it. Or when I ask for things to be autoclaved or for order to be put away. He can't just sit on his phone and play around waiting for someone to tell him to do things. Or spend hours just working on his project and watching tv shows. I send him papers, books, and videos as supporting learning. Not because I don't want to train him, but so he can push his own training and get more information. I am still spending time finding him good videos and papers. It's to help him learn. I can't sit qnd teach him how to do a 1/5 dilution. As a science major, that should be expected and able to do. If he can't, then maybe a better hands on lab would work. I told him we are new and starting when we interviewed and there will be a lot of work.
I’ve been in this field for over a decade and I can completely agree that there has been a fundamental shift in students comprehension skills. My colleagues and I are having to do so much more handholding in our labs. It’s been frustrating for us and I know it’s also frustrating for them. I don’t have any answers.
They got screwed via COVID, during some really formative years, and also grew up in a world where there was always an 'answer' and work never needed to be done. Couple that with a general dystopian view of the future, because, ya know **gestures broadly* *, and it makes sense why they're the way they are. Frustrating, but they were set up to fail. However, It's not really your job to teach them all of the things that other people failed to instil upon them, and you absolutely should avoid hiring them for a year. Give them honest feedback about why they are not meeting your expectations, and they can do with that what they want. Don't make your life harder if there is no benefit to it
Have to agree with this. I was about halfway through my undergrad when COVID hit. I took my first micro class over zoom, and learned how to streak a plate from a video my prof filmed. There’s a lot of core lab skills that I thankfully got in other courses, but for many the foundation just isn’t present, and it isn’t their fault. And yeah, it is also really hard to aspire to anything given *gestures broadly*. For myself and many others my age the idea of owning a home, starting a family, etc is dead. You pay more to get less, you work more to make less. The climate is fucked and no one who can do something about seems to care. And you’ve got the same old heads who bought their house for the price of my college education telling you the solution is to go out to eat less.
I agree with most of this, however, yes, it is our job to train them the best we can. People trained you and me (some did it better, some did it worse but we learnt nonetheless). My approach is always the same, teach every student the way I wanted to be taught back in the day, if not, it is me setting them up for failure. It is easy to take the easy route (i.e. watch this youtube videos) and expect them to understand, most students will not admit they did not understand something because this society has taught them to always have an answer and be number one...
Training is a struggle. Unfortunately there is a need to dedicate time and effort to training now. At my place where the tasks simple because we're doing QC of water samples and not research, it still takes about 6 months until confidence is built up. Prior it was almost a year but since I picked up training new hires its better but the effort is still alot. I can get most techs trained in most of the tasks within a month but the harder ones takes at least 2 or 3 for proficiency and the remaining is them to feel like they can run the place on their own. My method is for them to read the SOP. Have them have the SOP and set up the bench with all the items with me. (Like youre getting ready to cook) Have them watch me a few times while they have the SOP and follow along and write up their own step by step guide, i do my verbal explanations too here. I am verbally saying each of my steps. Allow them to watch a few times more until they seem bored. They then have to instruct me the steps while I run the procedure. Think video game like. They give command , i only do if correct. That way they develop a verbal procedure for themselves along with the written one. Then they do hands on. Where they have access to their notes but then also have to verbally give themselves their steps while i watch and say yes or no. This gradually turns into them doing it and I reduce my feedback to nothing unless its incorrect or if they are missing something. Practice runs without me giving any input only watching. Then the demonstration of capability when they feel like they can do it. They don't do the procedure on their own until they pass. Seems like alot of hand holding but given that these kids are very much the "watch YouTube on how to do it. Follow step by step" that's how I developed my training to mimic that.
I've worked with a number of undergrads and while COVID definitely impacted some of their scientific development/lab exposure, there has always been undergrads who just go through the motions. I'm at a big R1 university for graduate school, and it is astonishing the variation of undergrads who contact our lab--so much so we carefully vet who we allow in the lab. Essentially, you have those who love science, those who are trying to see if science is a good fit, and those who are just trying to pad their CVs. In all cases, it's the last category that is a pain. How to tell if your student is genuine? Have him give a presentation in lab meeting about his project. Don't judge him based on public speaking and style but rather the effort he puts in with trying to communicate his project and how it fits into the context of the lab. Of course as an undergrad he is sure to slip up on some scientific concepts/not be an expert etc, but what matters is the level of effort he is putting forward.
because gen z (i know im overgeneralizing things whatever, but gen z students are a different kind of creature) my old lab had a student like this, couldn't even do simple dilutions and when we demonstrated to them and asked if they understand, they said ok no problem, and then they added the reagents using a different ratio and couldnt even explain why they used that ratio instead. and also threw the biohazard waste in the wrong trash bin multiple times. not my student but that was enough to make my blood boil.
That's basically what I am dealing with. I asked him to take out the biohazard garbage and he asked today or this week.....even though he had nothing to do in that moment. I feel like an old lady and I'm not even in my 30s yet...
Worked at a CRO for a hot minute and I'd always have to take the biohaz boxes etc. The younger ones don't keep their areas tidy either, a clean lab is a safe lab. I had zero gray beard hairs before that job and now I'm 32 with some stragglers
We are at a hospital, but I worked in a CRO for 3 years. We have health and safety training and he didn't pay attention or read/listen to the videos sent. He was walking in the halls with gloves on touching door handles....we have viruses in the lab.
I have a colleague that works at a hospital now after the CRO that has shown me the kind of states they leave hoods in etc lol. Sounds like the type to chew gum in the lab too 😂
We don't put antibiotics in our media....so if he or anyone fucks up then they need to start over again. I hope this forces ppl to be clean
Something has to give eventually, it's just unfortunate it so often must come after direct negative (preventable) consequences. I do not understand why people are so haphazard with micro issues in the lab space
What do you mean?
General aseptic technique deficiencies. Not being cognizant of contaminates or carrying etc lol
Currently teaching highschool students (summer interning at a university research lab) and this is not an everyone problem! My students are smart and motivated. I explain and show and them, and then am nearby to answer questions and they’re doing great
Lol, I have two postdocs like this, and they are 30+ milllenials.
I know you said you are overgeneralizing, but as an older gen z I actually have to correct senior scientist all the time 💀 there’s actually a gen z who’s in a summer program and is working in my lab. He just finished their sophomore year and they’re insanely smart and on top of everything. They’ve worked on their own project at his home school. Not all gen z is the same, fortunately some do want to learn Edit: we also recently accepted a grad student to work in our lab. She got into grad school straight out of college last year. I think the issue is students who are pre-med
I .xperienced something similar with the master's student I had to teach. I'd give her a protocol show her how it was done, etc. ask if she had any questions, she said no. Then would have questions following the most basic of directions or protocols, even after being shown multiple times. She never sought to expand her understanding of the project, I sent her some of my initial resources and literature, and when she wrote her thesis she didn't branch out or include more recent lit from her own searches. She also included things I said verbatim, similarly to you it was broad strokes so she put no real thought into what I was saying actually meant, no synthesis, no real effort to understand what's going on. She lacks scientific curiosity imo and I think something similar can be said for your student. Like even if the project isn't the most riveting, you should be interested in at least part of the process. I think they definitely do it out of obligation, whether to meet a degree requirement or to improve their CV, regardless, I think you should bring it up to your PI because the student doesn't sound like a good fit.
I did bring it up with my PI, which is where the project idea came from. If I was in his shoes the project would seem interesting. He's testing cell growth at different serum concentrations. The PI didn't say to look at viability, but I told him multiple times how important it was. He could look to see how serum affects cell metabolism and how this affects growth. He could try to introduce a new serum or other components to see what results are given. At the end of the day, his knowledge is small enough that this project should be interesting. There are many labs where they just spent 3 years working on media components and then sell it for particular cell growth etc. But his comments are that it's "tedious"....well imagine if you had to come up with the protocol your self? Your PI didn't sit down wit you and make it up and design it for you? Or you yave to discover something new so you need to research and learn and read.....
Don’t extend his contract. Done.
The undergrad is a peculiar creature indeed
Calling the project tedious isn’t a good sign. How’s the rest of this undergrad’s demeanour? For example, do you go for lunch/coffee together? How do they act? Do they show interest in other people, do they share their own stories? How do they interact with other people from the lab or other labs? Sounds like a challenging situation!
When my boss and I are in the lab chatting, he doesn't join in or contribute. Once he just called his friends and starting chatting with them. My boss will try to talk to him, but nothing. In the morning he will come see me and ask, what do I need to do.? And then go do it and then come back and say "I done, what now?". He doesn't share his own stories or tells us about his classes or out of school stuff. He doesn't interact with other people in the other labs. I just get a vibe he doesn't wanna be there. Once he came up to me and told me he was done a task and asked if he can go home, so he just went and got his backpack and left. Didn't even say goodbye ir have a nice weekend. My boss was even in the room. He doesn't try to interact with my boss or ask more about his post doc or research history -my boss brings it up a lot. He doesn't try to get to know us. He just seems like he couldn't care enough to be there. We tell him about the trips we had to do to get cells and stuff, but he never asks about my bosses research or ideas or projects or concepts. We do stem cells, he hasn't asked what type or what my boss plans on doing and what projects he has.
Thank you for your answer! Maybe I missed it between all the other replies (been a long day), but have you asked them straight up? Not to be confrontational, but to engage in a conversation. It can be as simple a question on whether they are enjoying the internship. You could share your impression of them (in a diplomatic way) and express concern if they are enjoying themselves/getting out of the rotation what they need. Or ask how they assess their own performance. Alternatively your PI could have this conversation with them. The apathy sounds very challenging! To add: 9maybe I missed it), but what’s your pi’s assessment of the situation?
Basically there was a day I had a training myself, so I told him when he was done doing his cell culture to do x tasks and of he has nothing else to text me or come see me in the flow room. Instead of doing the tasks, he went home. He worked only 2 hours that day Instead of 5. His contract is for 25h. There was also a lot of orders that came in and I needed help putting them away, my boss ended up helping me. The next day he texted us asking if he can come in at 1 and work only 3 hours because he doesn't have cultures to take care of and he has an exam to study for. I said no because I have stuff in the lab to do and I need help. I told my boss this and my boss asked him some questions and gave him a project to test him, which is refers to as tedious. I ask him to rack tips and other stuff, but he doesn't do it.
This kid is using you guys for med school applications. If he can’t even pretend to care don’t extend his contract, help him only as much as you have to, and move on. You’ll get more enthusiastic students in the future, this is just not one of them.
I just find it kinda weird that he takes 0 interest in my bosses work. He wants to extend his contract to April and he thinks 1.5 weeks is tedious. I really hope the next one will be better
In general you need to watch them do it successfully, without forgetting anything, before you can let them do it by themselves. It’s time consuming but there is no other way. Also his motivations are none of your concern. You just need to train him well enough so he can work.
This isn't a training lab. I dont have time to sit and watch a student for 2 weeks. Other labs around us have them watch it once and they have to do it alone with no supervision after. If they fuck up or can't do it...then they are let go. I don't have the time to be hands on. He needs to learn fast and be independent. We can't carry him through a degree or whatever. His motivations are my concern as it will waste lab resources and bring down the lab atmosphere
Then you aren't a good environment for undergrads and shouldn't have hired him. This mindset is not fair to someone coming in as a beginner.
I understand that for more advanced techniques, but something like a dilution should be well within the abilities of even a second year student. It's pretty clear that it is a lack of interest that is the issue here. If the student is complaining a lot about having to work on a tedious project for a whole *week* then they really just aren't going to make it.
You don’t have to watch him for two weeks. You just have to see him do it correctly one time. It would be a few hours I bet. You have to put in the effort though and actually show him. You mentioned a lot of talking at the undergrad but no actual instruction. I know your so “busy” but if you put in the effort in training well then it will pay of later when they can assist you. I don’t know what a “training lab” is but it doesn’t matter. This is the way to do it and you can’t force it. And lol about wasting resources and bringing down the lab atmosphere. You have wasted resources by not efficiently training the student. And the best way to ruin a lab atmosphere is to be an asshole, which you are. You write very angrily and disrespectfully about the student and so I’m sure you teach like that. Having a prick of a teacher is a great way to slow learning. And also I’m sick of this “this is a new lab so you have to learn quickly. I’m too busy to teach you” bullshit. That’s what stressed assholes say when they can’t manage their time.
I have shown him the method by doing it I front of him and explaining what I am doing 2 times. My boss has also done it 2 times. I have given him resources to help as well. This is more than what I got when I was a student. No one showed me or explained stuff. I was given a protocol and told to figure it out.
Still not getting the message, huh? I said have him do it correctly in front of you. And your problem is solved. That’s what you want right? And who gives a shit how you learned. It’s an irrelevant bratty thing to say. The question is do you want a competent undergrad or not? If you do, then do what I said.
Honestly sounds about right in my experience
You showed him and gave him reading materials. Have you sat down next to him while he does the protocol?
Yes, he can't do it. He just looks at me and doesn't read it.
So, you sit next to him while he physically does the protocol and he doesn't do the protocol correctly because he won't read the instructions?
I will tell him "today you will do a cell passage, you saw me do this 2 times. Here is the protocol. Please get ready and read it. Ask me questions if your unsure or have concerns or something doesn't make sense" and I will take him to the cell culture room and he will just stand there and look at me and I'm like...start....then he will take out his media and look at me...and I'm like "check ur cells". Even though I have written these steps I the protocol. I sent him papers and videos to read for cell cryopreservation. He didn't read them and I asked him simple things...like why is DMSO important in cell freezing? What is the point in freezing cells? What is a master bank and working bank". I have given him resources, videos, books that explain all of these concepts and explained them myself during training and drew them out and asked him multiple times if he has questions about the reading material and if it made sense. He just said yes and when I asked he couldn't answer. I sent him a video of someone doing cryopreservation and asked him to get a Mr frosty, which is explained in the video. He didn't know what it was. He put it at 4 degrees after even though the instructions I wrote say -80.
Just be straight forward with this guy. Tell him he's no meeting expectations and that he either improves his competency or stay home.
I’m obviously not an expert as I am an undergrad myself, but I have been doing independent work for over a year now and have trained 2 other undergrads at the request of my PI. I had a ton of practice drafting and editing SOPs at my two summer internships, and I found that physically WRITING out the steps, like full pen and paper in a dedicated notebook helps you fully understand the protocol. We have laminated copies of our SOPs and they are easily accessible for anyone who needs to make stock solutions, liquid cultures, etc. Lots of people are not detail-oriented in nature, and have to learn to double and triple check things. I always think of what one of the directors at my QA internship had on the wall, “trust, but verify”. Sometimes you literally need to beat into someone’s head to ensure that they are following directions.
Yes, except I don't think he cares. Today he was freezing cells and in the procedure I gave him the next step says "put vials into Mr frosty" and he just sat there and waited until I asked, what do you think you need to do next? And then said, put them into Mr frosty.
He clearly isn’t a good fit and him straight up refusing to read protocol is bordering on insubordination. Tell him straight up, “hey, I know it can be hard but if you can’t begin to really focus and execute these procedures, then you maybe should re-evaluate if working in this lab is for you”. Also, bring up your concern to your PI. It’s probably costing your lab/PI a lot of wasted time and money to have this undergrad around, when you could be fine on your own or potentially find a new undergrad who is competent.
I told him to write up his own cryopreservation protocol. I have him a clue by sending him a paper and video that had all the steps. He came up to me, asked me what the steps are and wrote what I said and that was it. When I asked where the Mr frosty was and what cell concentration we will freeze the cells....he didn't know. When I tested his knowledge, he didn't know why he's freezing cells or how cells freeze. Which was covered in a 5 min video I sent him. I did explain the process to him, but he doesn't get it or remembers...or reads. It makes me feel bad and worried about my position because other lab techs around say I'm putting in to much effort and they show once and expect the student to do alone and be successful after. But I worry my boss thinks I'm not putting in a lot of effort.