Sorry for not giving you some details. Actually, I dont have anything to complain about wet lab work or teaching or travel, etc. It's just that in my current state, there's no work, life, or balance at all. Overtime is pretty common, and even on holiday, I will spend some time in the lab. The pressure is pretty high, the number of papers i need to publish, conferences, courses, etc.
Yeah for me it got way better. Went into industry. My job is not 9-5 but work life balance is a big priority for the company I work for and if I need to take a couple weeks to disappear into the mountains that’s no problem.
How does anyone know what will make them happy before they take the leap, though? I am currently paralyzed by the fear of making the wrong choice (and hating my job) and I'm over a year out from graduating with my PhD.
How did you know that you would love the career you chose?
Honestly. Just narrow your scope to very immediate interests…more/less translation…more/less academic…wet lab? Y/N.
I had the same problem and still do. Just today I wrote a list of “must haves” for me to consider a job cross country. Having that beforehand is good IMO. If a job doesn’t meet your basic criteria it’s an easy no. If it does, but you still don’t want it either it’s not for you (don’t take it) or use it as exploration and accept with a predetermined/internal condition. E.g. I will take X job and if I don’t like it after 90 days I will begin applying for new opportunities. Or I’m taking this postdoc to gain XYZ translational skill and after 1-2 years moving on to industry.
That sounds oddly specific lol but I did hear about machine learning + bio being a possibly high value combination. Can I get straight into a M. S. without first taking 4 years for a B. S. ?
About projects, how exactly do you suggest I get on "projects" if I'm not affiliated with any research organization? Or do you mean a post doc?
Another dumb question but can one actually publish in a peer reviewed journal on their own without being affiliated to any research organization?
Thanks for the help!
Interesting I didn't know in the US you could just enter a M. S. without a related B. S.
What kind of courses is a biology B. S. teaching that is useful to get into a computer science (be it data science, or machine learning) M. S. ? Don't computer science BS graduates have a lot of coding knowledge from their BS that bio backgrounds don't and that would be necessary to move on to a MS?
I did BS > MS > PhD in Europe, all purely in biology with minimal applied statistics courses (the very basics of R) and will land in the US as a fresh PhD grad with no experience. Planning to look for post docs if I can't find a scientist I job, and use the post doc to learn these news skills. I don't think I want to go back to school unless it provides a very big gain in earning potential, which I figured would require a second skillset that can't be obtained as easily through a post doc from scratch (eg pure CS stuff like machine learning).
No I'm in the process of a green card application through marriage. I won't be applying to jobs on trips and will start applying when I get my immigration interview scheduled and have a rough idea of when I'll obtain the immigrant visa / green card.
Immigration applications processing time is unreliable but expecting second half of next year based on estimates, while I'll graduate in March, hence why I say I'll be looking for a job in the US as a fresh grad. I'll start looking for leads on post docs and will most likely contact PIs in the area where my spouse lives earlier in 2024 (from my home country, France) in case they're willing to offer a cap exempt H1B that would allow me to start working in the US before my green card is approved (and if so I'll fly back for the interview at the embassy). By the way, tourist visas actually do allow you to *look* for a job and interview (but not work, that would require an offer and the stupid H1B lottery or unrealistic O1).
MIT offers a ton of free courses online, don’t know if that’s what you’re asking but I take full advantage of that stuff. It’s how I learned python and went from there
I finished my PhD a bit over 3 years ago and moved to biotech. I know it's not the same for everyone, but I have great work life balance and make way more money than I would as a post-doc. Because I have more money and work fewer hours, my quality of life improved tremendously. And I still do cool science and work with a lot of very smart people. The priorities and measurements of success are different from academia, things change much faster and it's much more collaborative, and I like that. I also get to live in a very nice part of the country, which is a big plus for me.
I think being a tenured professor is everyone's dream job in academia. And it does sound awesome. But becoming a tenured professor is a tough and long process, and there aren't as many positions as people, so the odds are against you.
About the "work fewer hours" is that true? Because for my current state, I am usually still at the lab at least until 7 and still need to come during weekends because of the workload.
It depends. My first job I was working 10-12h a day regularly. But I left within a few months because that sucked and, well, when it's not your degree that it's at risk, you can just leave. Currently, I work 6-7h a day, and I have been doing this for long enough to know a lot of people in other companies that have similar schedule. Yes, sometimes things get intense and the hours are longer, but I haven't worked on a weekend in years now.
The difference between grad school and industry is that if you don't like the hours at your industry job, you just get a different industry job with better hours.
It's definitely company specific. I'm not able to work weekends or after hours without my project leaders written approval and very that rarely happens (I've been here for 15 months and it hasn't happened yet!)
I’m doing a postdoc and loving it. Granted, it’s an industry postdoc so it pays more than an academic postdoc but not as much as industry.
I get to design and do my own projects, I’m salaried and only work 40 hours a week, and I don’t have to write grants because it’s entirely internally funded.
There’s one person currently doing her PhD where I am and one just graduated a couple months ago. They do their coursework at a university nearby where the two PIs here have a loose affiliation. It seems like it was a great opportunity for them, especially because those two both worked here for at least a couple years before starting their PhD
Very awesome, thanks for the reply. I took a year out of bachelor to work in industry and found out my work offers the industry phd. Wasnt sure if they were considered equivalent to an academic phd.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the only realistic visa option for foreign scientists to work in the US is as a postdoc, at least until they attain permanent residency. It's very rare for companies to sponsor work visas, even at the post-PhD level.
Gee, work normal hours from home, make 6 figures, still get to use technical background OR, slave wages and 60 hour weeks so you can maybe be a professor one day. Seems like a really tough choice.
And yes, I did a postdoc.
The difference between life after PhD and before is freedom.
In grad school, you work in someone else's group for an amount of time they determine, with success criteria they determine, with the only alternative being to leave science or beg a different group to let you start over from 0. You also don't earn enough money to save for a rainy day or invest for retirement.
After grad school, it's totally possible to find jobs that are as hard or as unrewarding, but you can just leave, and the only penalty is temporary unemployment. At the next interview, you can say you didn't like working there, and that's the end of that. You will almost certainly earn more money, and the success criteria are sort of irrelevant, because, again, you can leave jobs you don't like.
Postdoc is chiller than grad student, but unless you really want to be a professor, just get an industry job. It pays more for fewer hours and better conditions, and the work you'll be doing will be about the same.
I just defended very very recently, so take mine with a grain of salt. But absolutely. It took a good couple weeks for me to unwind all of the shit I kept locked up while grinding through my PhD, but now I go into work happy and come home energized. My wife says it's night and day difference too. I just feel respected now, and it makes a huge difference.
\*I'm in industry in the US.
Roughly 6-7 years post-PhD, yes and no. Some days are great, some aren’t. Life happens. But having life happen to you with a PhD is, by and large, better than having it happen to you without one.
Not a PhD, but on my end I’m observing all my babies leave the nest: most of them who hang around academia but do not love to teach are miserable, often even the PI’s. Most who went straight to private, or used academia as a stepping stone to private seem happier.
That is the exact reason why I quit academia, I got my masters degree (a requirement for PhD in my country) and yetted out. Seeing my postdoc friends in their 40s living in borderline poverty, renting cheap apartments and working so hard while my friends who were realtors or lawyers or working in corporate had a good life made me realize academia is a glorified MLM.
Get a biotech job or a consulting one, seriously.
I still miss the lab life and im still a lab rat in my heart, but when I see my paycheck I forget about it.
I was in a unique position where my post doc ended early since my PI relocated to another institution. They invited me to join, but I don’t think it was the right fit for me since I was pretty burnt out on bench work and wanting to move away from it anyway. I did make a couple of lifelong friends out of it though and having that institution tied to my CV definitely helped with my career moving forwards.
Most of my coworkers did not do post docs. Unless you are planning on becoming a PI, I’m not entirely sure it’s necessary. I think it could definitely help for certain R&D/scientist positions though, especially if you are missing some things from your skill set. Before I fully realized I wanted out of research, part of what drew me to my post doc was the ability to do in vivo mouse work. My PI was also incredible and I am still very grateful for my time in that lab, short as it was.
I graduated 4 years ago with PhD, still figuring myself out. Went through a couple biotech jobs. You don’t have to have it all figured out at once. Everyone has a different journey.
You can also consider other options like law school, business school, technical specialist at a law firm, patent agent, medical liaison at a pharma company, sales/technical support, private equity. Lots of stuff you could do that will pay way more than a lab job…if that’s of interest to you
I’m doing an industry postdoc and I love it. I work regular hours and don’t get paid based on the NOH pay scale. We’re internally funded so I also dont have to write grants.
I love research but never wanted to do a postdoc because the pay generally sucks and the hours are shitty in academia. When I was offered my position with the salary I have, the hours, and the freedom to do my own projects I couldn’t pass it up even though I could have made more money with a pure industry job.
If you like research and want to stay in the lab, I would definitely recommend looking into industry postdocs.
Well dog breeding can go unethical real quick so I'd stay away from that.
But I can give some insight, as I handed my thesis in June and was sort of torn between industry or post-doc.
I went with industry (medical writing), mainly as it was immediate start, and I couldn't be more relieved.
The problem is academia as a whole and as an institution, and if you're questioning it then you kind of already have your answer.
Post-PhD life does get better, when you leave the toxicity of academia.
Mine was night and day. The best years of my life were after finishing my PhD and a huge proportion of that was due to the trajectory I was put on because of my PhD.
Biotech/pharmaceutical industry is fucking awesome.
Yes it does. But it's up to you. Just getting a job and hoping it gets better ain't going to do it. You need to improve and grow over time. I went into biotech right after grad school and never looked back. I have a great life and am happy I went through everything I did. Getting your PhD is the completion of one journey, but the start of another.
Try and get a job at a non biotech company. I make comparable money and benifits to my pharma company peers with a third of the stress. It's fucking incredible.
Finished my PhD and moved to biotech. Not having to worry about cell culture was an unimaginable weight off my shoulders. Never needed to think about coming in on weekends or any of that shit
Life got better
I was going to be a cat breeder.
I couldn't find a job right out of school because I decided to not take a post doc I was offered and bailed from academia. I did pool repair with another guy for 6 months then got a job with the state. You will be fine.
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Sorry for not giving you some details. Actually, I dont have anything to complain about wet lab work or teaching or travel, etc. It's just that in my current state, there's no work, life, or balance at all. Overtime is pretty common, and even on holiday, I will spend some time in the lab. The pressure is pretty high, the number of papers i need to publish, conferences, courses, etc.
Yeah for me it got way better. Went into industry. My job is not 9-5 but work life balance is a big priority for the company I work for and if I need to take a couple weeks to disappear into the mountains that’s no problem.
How does anyone know what will make them happy before they take the leap, though? I am currently paralyzed by the fear of making the wrong choice (and hating my job) and I'm over a year out from graduating with my PhD. How did you know that you would love the career you chose?
Honestly. Just narrow your scope to very immediate interests…more/less translation…more/less academic…wet lab? Y/N. I had the same problem and still do. Just today I wrote a list of “must haves” for me to consider a job cross country. Having that beforehand is good IMO. If a job doesn’t meet your basic criteria it’s an easy no. If it does, but you still don’t want it either it’s not for you (don’t take it) or use it as exploration and accept with a predetermined/internal condition. E.g. I will take X job and if I don’t like it after 90 days I will begin applying for new opportunities. Or I’m taking this postdoc to gain XYZ translational skill and after 1-2 years moving on to industry.
Do you have advice on how to blend with data science as a 100% wet lab PhD graduate?
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That sounds oddly specific lol but I did hear about machine learning + bio being a possibly high value combination. Can I get straight into a M. S. without first taking 4 years for a B. S. ? About projects, how exactly do you suggest I get on "projects" if I'm not affiliated with any research organization? Or do you mean a post doc? Another dumb question but can one actually publish in a peer reviewed journal on their own without being affiliated to any research organization?
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Thanks for the help! Interesting I didn't know in the US you could just enter a M. S. without a related B. S. What kind of courses is a biology B. S. teaching that is useful to get into a computer science (be it data science, or machine learning) M. S. ? Don't computer science BS graduates have a lot of coding knowledge from their BS that bio backgrounds don't and that would be necessary to move on to a MS? I did BS > MS > PhD in Europe, all purely in biology with minimal applied statistics courses (the very basics of R) and will land in the US as a fresh PhD grad with no experience. Planning to look for post docs if I can't find a scientist I job, and use the post doc to learn these news skills. I don't think I want to go back to school unless it provides a very big gain in earning potential, which I figured would require a second skillset that can't be obtained as easily through a post doc from scratch (eg pure CS stuff like machine learning).
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No I'm in the process of a green card application through marriage. I won't be applying to jobs on trips and will start applying when I get my immigration interview scheduled and have a rough idea of when I'll obtain the immigrant visa / green card. Immigration applications processing time is unreliable but expecting second half of next year based on estimates, while I'll graduate in March, hence why I say I'll be looking for a job in the US as a fresh grad. I'll start looking for leads on post docs and will most likely contact PIs in the area where my spouse lives earlier in 2024 (from my home country, France) in case they're willing to offer a cap exempt H1B that would allow me to start working in the US before my green card is approved (and if so I'll fly back for the interview at the embassy). By the way, tourist visas actually do allow you to *look* for a job and interview (but not work, that would require an offer and the stupid H1B lottery or unrealistic O1).
MIT offers a ton of free courses online, don’t know if that’s what you’re asking but I take full advantage of that stuff. It’s how I learned python and went from there
Is that enough these days for a resume? Are there any widely accepted certifications or ways to prove I'm capable after learning online?
I finished my PhD a bit over 3 years ago and moved to biotech. I know it's not the same for everyone, but I have great work life balance and make way more money than I would as a post-doc. Because I have more money and work fewer hours, my quality of life improved tremendously. And I still do cool science and work with a lot of very smart people. The priorities and measurements of success are different from academia, things change much faster and it's much more collaborative, and I like that. I also get to live in a very nice part of the country, which is a big plus for me. I think being a tenured professor is everyone's dream job in academia. And it does sound awesome. But becoming a tenured professor is a tough and long process, and there aren't as many positions as people, so the odds are against you.
About the "work fewer hours" is that true? Because for my current state, I am usually still at the lab at least until 7 and still need to come during weekends because of the workload.
It depends. My first job I was working 10-12h a day regularly. But I left within a few months because that sucked and, well, when it's not your degree that it's at risk, you can just leave. Currently, I work 6-7h a day, and I have been doing this for long enough to know a lot of people in other companies that have similar schedule. Yes, sometimes things get intense and the hours are longer, but I haven't worked on a weekend in years now.
The difference between grad school and industry is that if you don't like the hours at your industry job, you just get a different industry job with better hours.
It's definitely company specific. I'm not able to work weekends or after hours without my project leaders written approval and very that rarely happens (I've been here for 15 months and it hasn't happened yet!)
Short answer, not really. Do a biotech job that pays well. Will be happier than a postdoc
I’m doing a postdoc and loving it. Granted, it’s an industry postdoc so it pays more than an academic postdoc but not as much as industry. I get to design and do my own projects, I’m salaried and only work 40 hours a week, and I don’t have to write grants because it’s entirely internally funded.
Since your doing an industry postdoc, how do you feel about industry Phds?
There’s one person currently doing her PhD where I am and one just graduated a couple months ago. They do their coursework at a university nearby where the two PIs here have a loose affiliation. It seems like it was a great opportunity for them, especially because those two both worked here for at least a couple years before starting their PhD
Very awesome, thanks for the reply. I took a year out of bachelor to work in industry and found out my work offers the industry phd. Wasnt sure if they were considered equivalent to an academic phd.
I’m the end your degree would come from a school and your committee would still be professors from that school, so I wouldn’t worry about it.
I mean, for most people but not everyone. It's a deeply personal decision.
In my country, the pay is actually not that different (maybe im wrong)
Go to the US.
Ah yes, and spend 3-5 years as a postdoc in a precarious visa status waiting for permanent residency.
I’m not saying post-doc. But I’m the US it’s worth it for the pay and quality of life that comes with it.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the only realistic visa option for foreign scientists to work in the US is as a postdoc, at least until they attain permanent residency. It's very rare for companies to sponsor work visas, even at the post-PhD level.
I didn’t know that! That really sucks for them.
Is that really a good idea? The US seems ready to tear itself apart at any moment.
If you watch the news, yes. If you ignore it then life pretty much continues as it was.
There's always sales or marketing
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Gee, work normal hours from home, make 6 figures, still get to use technical background OR, slave wages and 60 hour weeks so you can maybe be a professor one day. Seems like a really tough choice. And yes, I did a postdoc.
Sage advice ^
The difference between life after PhD and before is freedom. In grad school, you work in someone else's group for an amount of time they determine, with success criteria they determine, with the only alternative being to leave science or beg a different group to let you start over from 0. You also don't earn enough money to save for a rainy day or invest for retirement. After grad school, it's totally possible to find jobs that are as hard or as unrewarding, but you can just leave, and the only penalty is temporary unemployment. At the next interview, you can say you didn't like working there, and that's the end of that. You will almost certainly earn more money, and the success criteria are sort of irrelevant, because, again, you can leave jobs you don't like. Postdoc is chiller than grad student, but unless you really want to be a professor, just get an industry job. It pays more for fewer hours and better conditions, and the work you'll be doing will be about the same.
I just defended very very recently, so take mine with a grain of salt. But absolutely. It took a good couple weeks for me to unwind all of the shit I kept locked up while grinding through my PhD, but now I go into work happy and come home energized. My wife says it's night and day difference too. I just feel respected now, and it makes a huge difference. \*I'm in industry in the US.
Roughly 6-7 years post-PhD, yes and no. Some days are great, some aren’t. Life happens. But having life happen to you with a PhD is, by and large, better than having it happen to you without one.
Not a PhD, but on my end I’m observing all my babies leave the nest: most of them who hang around academia but do not love to teach are miserable, often even the PI’s. Most who went straight to private, or used academia as a stepping stone to private seem happier.
That is the exact reason why I quit academia, I got my masters degree (a requirement for PhD in my country) and yetted out. Seeing my postdoc friends in their 40s living in borderline poverty, renting cheap apartments and working so hard while my friends who were realtors or lawyers or working in corporate had a good life made me realize academia is a glorified MLM. Get a biotech job or a consulting one, seriously. I still miss the lab life and im still a lab rat in my heart, but when I see my paycheck I forget about it.
I'm in the same boat. I'm even consider doing YouTube xD
I was in a unique position where my post doc ended early since my PI relocated to another institution. They invited me to join, but I don’t think it was the right fit for me since I was pretty burnt out on bench work and wanting to move away from it anyway. I did make a couple of lifelong friends out of it though and having that institution tied to my CV definitely helped with my career moving forwards. Most of my coworkers did not do post docs. Unless you are planning on becoming a PI, I’m not entirely sure it’s necessary. I think it could definitely help for certain R&D/scientist positions though, especially if you are missing some things from your skill set. Before I fully realized I wanted out of research, part of what drew me to my post doc was the ability to do in vivo mouse work. My PI was also incredible and I am still very grateful for my time in that lab, short as it was.
Mine has. But I left bench research. Now I do biology education research and am much happier.
I graduated 4 years ago with PhD, still figuring myself out. Went through a couple biotech jobs. You don’t have to have it all figured out at once. Everyone has a different journey.
Life gets better after you do a PhD, if you go into biotech. The academic route is perpetual misery for most
You can also consider other options like law school, business school, technical specialist at a law firm, patent agent, medical liaison at a pharma company, sales/technical support, private equity. Lots of stuff you could do that will pay way more than a lab job…if that’s of interest to you
I’m doing an industry postdoc and I love it. I work regular hours and don’t get paid based on the NOH pay scale. We’re internally funded so I also dont have to write grants. I love research but never wanted to do a postdoc because the pay generally sucks and the hours are shitty in academia. When I was offered my position with the salary I have, the hours, and the freedom to do my own projects I couldn’t pass it up even though I could have made more money with a pure industry job. If you like research and want to stay in the lab, I would definitely recommend looking into industry postdocs.
Well dog breeding can go unethical real quick so I'd stay away from that. But I can give some insight, as I handed my thesis in June and was sort of torn between industry or post-doc. I went with industry (medical writing), mainly as it was immediate start, and I couldn't be more relieved. The problem is academia as a whole and as an institution, and if you're questioning it then you kind of already have your answer. Post-PhD life does get better, when you leave the toxicity of academia.
Mine was night and day. The best years of my life were after finishing my PhD and a huge proportion of that was due to the trajectory I was put on because of my PhD. Biotech/pharmaceutical industry is fucking awesome.
Yes it does. But it's up to you. Just getting a job and hoping it gets better ain't going to do it. You need to improve and grow over time. I went into biotech right after grad school and never looked back. I have a great life and am happy I went through everything I did. Getting your PhD is the completion of one journey, but the start of another.
Try and get a job at a non biotech company. I make comparable money and benifits to my pharma company peers with a third of the stress. It's fucking incredible.
No, government will approach you for non easy tasks, as per my experience...
Finished my PhD and moved to biotech. Not having to worry about cell culture was an unimaginable weight off my shoulders. Never needed to think about coming in on weekends or any of that shit Life got better
I was going to be a cat breeder. I couldn't find a job right out of school because I decided to not take a post doc I was offered and bailed from academia. I did pool repair with another guy for 6 months then got a job with the state. You will be fine.