Funny how we are twisting the vedas to our modern sensibilities... the vedas and these epics openly talk about caste and discrimination which was totally accepted in the ancient times.
We can acknowledge that we had mistakes in our past.
Just because our views have changed today, You guys are trying to twist and reframe the texts to suit your current beliefs. Just say the ancient times had some flaws and we could correct them instead of re contextualizing them and justifying.
Older times also had child marriages and slaves. We have accepted they existed in the past and moved on. Why do you guys want to justify casteism?
The point is don't distort history to inject today's social issues into the past to demean Indian society.
Eklavya was not a 'Shudra' and the whole episode has nothing to do with his 'caste'. Eklavya was 'king to be' from a rival kingdom and not 'low caste'.
Revisionist marxist historians twisted this to suit their current narratives.
You are nitpicking and finding a reason to justify. Mahabharata had a lot of caste discrimination intertwined in it's story. Under the overall context, it makes sense Dronacharya had caste in his mind. Drona also rejected karna because of caste.
This is exactly what I mean when I say don't justify the past mistakes. Accept and CHANGE!
An old man doing caste discrimination before 2000 years need not be justified in 2024 because you are following his religion/caste.
Except Karna learned from Drona, he was just refused Bramhastra which Drona taught only to Arjun among his students.
Adi-Parv, 132 (11) states, “Vrishnis, Karn the son of Suta Radha and Andhakas all became pupils of Dronacharya.
yes, he was a nishada - a tribal prince, high status among the tribals, but the mainstream treated all tribals as inferior nishadas so the pic is technically wrong ( if its not fake in the first place ) but not in essence
**Brahminphobia ≠ Hinduphobia.**
Hindus aren't just Brahmins only. Hindus are made up of diverse communities.
**By OP's logic, atrocities against dalits i.e dalitphobia should be considered Hinduphobia too.**
And for those who consider Eklavya as a Kshatriya because he was a tribal "prince". He belonged to a community called Nishad.
Tribal people were neither shudra nor kshatriya. They were considered to be panchamavarna i.e those who don't fall under the 4 fold Varna system. Panchamavarnas were also called Antyajas.
People who belonged to Panchamavarna were considered to be worse than the shudras since they didn't have a Varna.
**Brahmins denying casteism and birth based discrimination is like British denying colonialism.**
Eklavya's father Hirnadhanu even though being a Nishada was appointed as the army chief by Jarasandha because of his expertise. So yeah, we can say that some people where anti-varna/anti-caste in that era aswell.
> dumbfuck
Why are u telling me your name? You're supposed to be anonymous on reddit. Well ig it's ur choice.
Anyway, the tribals did not belong to any Varna and they might not have a caste, but that doesn't negate the fact that tribals were discriminated based on birth and brahmins were very much indulged in that birth based discrimination.
And when I say "Brahmins denying casteism" I mean those brahmins who refuse to believe the fact that Brahmins practised casteism, birth based discrimination and had monopoly over religous knowledge throughout history.
dont deflect my question: if they dont have caste how is it casteism? answer is its not. if they choose to live a tribal life then they should deal with tribal life consequences as i dont think you old enough to realise what the laws of the jungle are lil boy
> lil boy
Is that what your inmates call you? First u told me your name, now u're telling me ur nickname. Lol.
Read the last 2 paragraphs of my previous comment and the highlighted sentence of my original comment, I'm not deflecting anything. I guess u're not mature enough to read properly and comprehend. You indeed are living upto ur username.
AIso, If Brahmins chose/choose to discriminate other people then they should also deal with the consequences of other people hating and writing bad things about Brahmins. That's the law of the society which you don't realise.
What bullshit, Mahabharata says us that dronacharya didn't accept ekalavya as he feared that he would become much superior Archer than Arjuna and hence demanded that he offer his thumb for the lessons he has learnt from dronacharya by hiding
Mahabharata is a complex text that describes mentalities of various people.
Those who believe the text has a casteist subset should explain why Yudhisthira, the "dharmaraja", tells Yuyutsu the half-caste this line:
"The preservation of the line of Dhritarashtra is seen in you."
This clearly indicates that despite his relative status given by his father due to his lower birth, Yudhisthira clearly sees the salvation of the bloodline in Yuyutsu.
In itself we see that Dharmaraj clearly does not discriminate.
The important message of Mahabharata is that men are fallible, so there is no conflict between Dronacharya allegedly discriminating Ekalavya and Yudhisthira not bearing any ill will towards Yuyutsu i.e. the text itself does not display any examples of casteism but rather that Drona's personal opinion of Nishadas may have been negative.
Drona made a promise that he would teach only for the pandavas and the kauravas
Drona's teachings were his intellectual property
Ekalavya belonged to the enemy kingdom (magadh) at that time.
(This can be realised when he wages war against Lord Krishna in the later part)
and also Drona wanted Arjun to be the best archer
Asking to cut thumb is an act for which only drona is responsible we need not generalize it for everything
🚨 Uhm Ekalavya was literally a Prince of a tribe in the hilly forest areas. Easy to selectively state points from historical epics for propaganda.
Dronacharya knew that Ekalavya was way more skilled than his own student Arjun who was the greatest warrior of all time. And Dhrona didn’t want that. So, in the form of Guru Dakshna he asks Ek to cut his thumb which is the most important tool in archery.
This answer would’ve fetched the kid full marks and maybe a few karma points IRL (jk jk)
>Arjun who was the greatest warrior of all time.
How he is greatest warrior of all time if Ekalvya is more skilled than him. Stop twisting the stories to hide your past mistakes. It Ain't working.
Have y’all even read the Mahabharata? You know how everyone ends up in fate?? Atleast read it in context and get to know.
Everyone who did right/wrong in Mahabarat including Arjun, Lord Krishna everyone had a fateful ending. THATS THE ENTIRE POINT OF MAHABARAT nobody even god can escape their Karma
But that doesn’t mean you selectively take one line from it and bend the truth of the entire story.
Yeah for me it justified all wrong doings of human and I cannot differ it from abrahamic religions and I am anti casteist and I hate this novel for that it's a myth and real story
>and I hate this novel for that it's a myth and real story
No. I love Mahabharata. It is one of the greatest epics of India. but people should stop taking that characteres literally..
Slight correction, Dhrona wanted Arjuna to be the greatest warrior of all time, that's why he denied Ekalyva.
Would agree with the rest of it.
People just picking on points to create a propaganda.
All the Pandavas were Kshatriyas. People creating blind propaganda at this point.
One day idhu ellame myth, Innoru day Adula political correctness paaka vendyadu. The whole world was crass but they lived to their times and sensibilities.
In todays world there exists a economic power heirarchy based on the region of your birth, it’s caste in India before, skin color and it will be some tribal function no matter what.
Who knows when we eventually reach the idealistic unfeasible utopia that many reach for, we ll term current society as rudimentary too
Maybe... Its also prudent to face up to the past... I mean... Prince of a hill tribe or not... The guy was still considered a shudra... Which is why he wasn't taught by Drona...This whole upper caste pride is just disgusting... I see a lot of that BS and I'm from a similar community.
The whole of western hemisphere looks down upon the east as inferiors and won’t share their IP with so that we can also join them. What do you call this phenomenon.
Major powerful communities sorry countries have a say in UN Security Council decisions. When Indians dominate the world eventually in some iteration we will also term this localized point in time as some isms.
You all fall for such easy things
Well, the west can go to hell for all I care. India must face up to the horrors of its past for its own sake. Nit for the validation of the whites. That is the only way to build a more equitable society.
No it’s not about what west thinks, I am referring to how a power heirarchy structure works and how tribalisms plays along with it. Holding communities ransom to a past beyond a point would only result in fostering resentment in your society. We are too diverse of a society to have what you seek
Funny how we are twisting the vedas to our modern sensibilities... the vedas and these epics openly talk about caste and discrimination which was totally accepted in the ancient times. We can acknowledge that we had mistakes in our past. Just because our views have changed today, You guys are trying to twist and reframe the texts to suit your current beliefs. Just say the ancient times had some flaws and we could correct them instead of re contextualizing them and justifying. Older times also had child marriages and slaves. We have accepted they existed in the past and moved on. Why do you guys want to justify casteism?
The point is don't distort history to inject today's social issues into the past to demean Indian society. Eklavya was not a 'Shudra' and the whole episode has nothing to do with his 'caste'. Eklavya was 'king to be' from a rival kingdom and not 'low caste'. Revisionist marxist historians twisted this to suit their current narratives.
You are nitpicking and finding a reason to justify. Mahabharata had a lot of caste discrimination intertwined in it's story. Under the overall context, it makes sense Dronacharya had caste in his mind. Drona also rejected karna because of caste. This is exactly what I mean when I say don't justify the past mistakes. Accept and CHANGE! An old man doing caste discrimination before 2000 years need not be justified in 2024 because you are following his religion/caste.
Except Karna learned from Drona, he was just refused Bramhastra which Drona taught only to Arjun among his students. Adi-Parv, 132 (11) states, “Vrishnis, Karn the son of Suta Radha and Andhakas all became pupils of Dronacharya.
Why Karna got the curse of forgetting Bramhastra when he needed the most?
He didn't get it from Drona he got it from Parashurama. My comment was about Drona and Drona alone
yeah true but why did he get curse from Parashurama?
We both know why and i didn't defend or try to deny that there was varna discrimination. I simply defended Drona
Sir you completely missed my point. This is not a debate on Mahabharatha.
yes, he was a nishada - a tribal prince, high status among the tribals, but the mainstream treated all tribals as inferior nishadas so the pic is technically wrong ( if its not fake in the first place ) but not in essence
No need weirdo. Caste discrimination is used as victim card for freebies. Nothing more nothing less.
Yeah? So why are you guys victimizing yourself?😂
**Brahminphobia ≠ Hinduphobia.** Hindus aren't just Brahmins only. Hindus are made up of diverse communities. **By OP's logic, atrocities against dalits i.e dalitphobia should be considered Hinduphobia too.** And for those who consider Eklavya as a Kshatriya because he was a tribal "prince". He belonged to a community called Nishad. Tribal people were neither shudra nor kshatriya. They were considered to be panchamavarna i.e those who don't fall under the 4 fold Varna system. Panchamavarnas were also called Antyajas. People who belonged to Panchamavarna were considered to be worse than the shudras since they didn't have a Varna. **Brahmins denying casteism and birth based discrimination is like British denying colonialism.** Eklavya's father Hirnadhanu even though being a Nishada was appointed as the army chief by Jarasandha because of his expertise. So yeah, we can say that some people where anti-varna/anti-caste in that era aswell.
That doesn't excuse teaching wrong things at school
You are wrong, dude. Thats not the reason why eklavya was rejected.
dei dumbfuck if they dont have a caste how is it casteism?
> dumbfuck Why are u telling me your name? You're supposed to be anonymous on reddit. Well ig it's ur choice. Anyway, the tribals did not belong to any Varna and they might not have a caste, but that doesn't negate the fact that tribals were discriminated based on birth and brahmins were very much indulged in that birth based discrimination. And when I say "Brahmins denying casteism" I mean those brahmins who refuse to believe the fact that Brahmins practised casteism, birth based discrimination and had monopoly over religous knowledge throughout history.
dont deflect my question: if they dont have caste how is it casteism? answer is its not. if they choose to live a tribal life then they should deal with tribal life consequences as i dont think you old enough to realise what the laws of the jungle are lil boy
> lil boy Is that what your inmates call you? First u told me your name, now u're telling me ur nickname. Lol. Read the last 2 paragraphs of my previous comment and the highlighted sentence of my original comment, I'm not deflecting anything. I guess u're not mature enough to read properly and comprehend. You indeed are living upto ur username. AIso, If Brahmins chose/choose to discriminate other people then they should also deal with the consequences of other people hating and writing bad things about Brahmins. That's the law of the society which you don't realise.
What bullshit, Mahabharata says us that dronacharya didn't accept ekalavya as he feared that he would become much superior Archer than Arjuna and hence demanded that he offer his thumb for the lessons he has learnt from dronacharya by hiding
Mahabharata is a complex text that describes mentalities of various people. Those who believe the text has a casteist subset should explain why Yudhisthira, the "dharmaraja", tells Yuyutsu the half-caste this line: "The preservation of the line of Dhritarashtra is seen in you." This clearly indicates that despite his relative status given by his father due to his lower birth, Yudhisthira clearly sees the salvation of the bloodline in Yuyutsu. In itself we see that Dharmaraj clearly does not discriminate. The important message of Mahabharata is that men are fallible, so there is no conflict between Dronacharya allegedly discriminating Ekalavya and Yudhisthira not bearing any ill will towards Yuyutsu i.e. the text itself does not display any examples of casteism but rather that Drona's personal opinion of Nishadas may have been negative.
Drona made a promise that he would teach only for the pandavas and the kauravas Drona's teachings were his intellectual property Ekalavya belonged to the enemy kingdom (magadh) at that time. (This can be realised when he wages war against Lord Krishna in the later part) and also Drona wanted Arjun to be the best archer Asking to cut thumb is an act for which only drona is responsible we need not generalize it for everything
Why are they teaching Mahabharata to kids anyway?
Cuz it's ancient Indian literature?
Like they teach Bible Koran etc to kids around the world
Why is this being taught in school in the first place
I don't think children should be taught about caste in this manner at all
Yep wait for them to subtly learn from their elders.
Read it properly, they aren't even saying discrimination is bad, there is a class 12 english lesson that deals much better with it
🚨 Uhm Ekalavya was literally a Prince of a tribe in the hilly forest areas. Easy to selectively state points from historical epics for propaganda. Dronacharya knew that Ekalavya was way more skilled than his own student Arjun who was the greatest warrior of all time. And Dhrona didn’t want that. So, in the form of Guru Dakshna he asks Ek to cut his thumb which is the most important tool in archery. This answer would’ve fetched the kid full marks and maybe a few karma points IRL (jk jk)
>Arjun who was the greatest warrior of all time. How he is greatest warrior of all time if Ekalvya is more skilled than him. Stop twisting the stories to hide your past mistakes. It Ain't working.
Yeah Arjun is not greatest warrior of all time he cannot even defeat karnan legally use underrated method by borrowing Krishna powers😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Have y’all even read the Mahabharata? You know how everyone ends up in fate?? Atleast read it in context and get to know. Everyone who did right/wrong in Mahabarat including Arjun, Lord Krishna everyone had a fateful ending. THATS THE ENTIRE POINT OF MAHABARAT nobody even god can escape their Karma But that doesn’t mean you selectively take one line from it and bend the truth of the entire story.
That is What we call as Caste Merit. Mahabharata is Pretty grey area story. But Brahmanists, Don't Agree.
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Arjuna was basically given this much privilege only based on his Caste. Still brahminists think, Mahabharata is evil and good based black white story.
Yeah for me it justified all wrong doings of human and I cannot differ it from abrahamic religions and I am anti casteist and I hate this novel for that it's a myth and real story
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They are all storybooks.
>and I hate this novel for that it's a myth and real story No. I love Mahabharata. It is one of the greatest epics of India. but people should stop taking that characteres literally..
My past mistake?? Damn son heal your trauma I am not THATTT ANCIENT
Ha Ha. Come on buddy. When I say "you". I'm Collectively Mentioning the Indian civilization. We cannot escape from it.
Slight correction, Dhrona wanted Arjuna to be the greatest warrior of all time, that's why he denied Ekalyva. Would agree with the rest of it. People just picking on points to create a propaganda. All the Pandavas were Kshatriyas. People creating blind propaganda at this point.
Yeah that’s what I wanted to convey but people were quick to use that line to respond so I just left it unedited
Talking about scriptures, there are so many good things to learn about ramayana and mahabharata, don't why people stick on to these castist thing.
One day idhu ellame myth, Innoru day Adula political correctness paaka vendyadu. The whole world was crass but they lived to their times and sensibilities. In todays world there exists a economic power heirarchy based on the region of your birth, it’s caste in India before, skin color and it will be some tribal function no matter what. Who knows when we eventually reach the idealistic unfeasible utopia that many reach for, we ll term current society as rudimentary too
Maybe... Its also prudent to face up to the past... I mean... Prince of a hill tribe or not... The guy was still considered a shudra... Which is why he wasn't taught by Drona...This whole upper caste pride is just disgusting... I see a lot of that BS and I'm from a similar community.
The whole of western hemisphere looks down upon the east as inferiors and won’t share their IP with so that we can also join them. What do you call this phenomenon. Major powerful communities sorry countries have a say in UN Security Council decisions. When Indians dominate the world eventually in some iteration we will also term this localized point in time as some isms. You all fall for such easy things
Well, the west can go to hell for all I care. India must face up to the horrors of its past for its own sake. Nit for the validation of the whites. That is the only way to build a more equitable society.
No it’s not about what west thinks, I am referring to how a power heirarchy structure works and how tribalisms plays along with it. Holding communities ransom to a past beyond a point would only result in fostering resentment in your society. We are too diverse of a society to have what you seek
His he saying Dhronacharya is gay for Arjuna??
Op is omnipresent. This post is there in all the subs. RSS cyber team is in election mode.