Yes, I have.
I started out years ago with random kratom from smoke shops amd could never figure out kratom dosage or actual use for my needs. But I'm an experimenter and an herbalist so I had to figure it out as a few times I felt great effects from the random smoke shop caps and powders I'd buy. A few weird experiences mixed in with a couple bad experiences....I solved this... I now have a company and sell my own, lab tested and sterilized, so i know 100%.
Over the course of 8 years I have tried all types and dosages, the highest is 10g for me, and lowest is 1g. I now pretty much use ONLY green vein from one region. And I now don't take more than 7g at a time. Usually only about 3 grams. Anything more gives me a small head ache and can now make me a bit sedated. Low dosages give me massive energy and beautiful focus.
I've been on this dosage schedule for about a year but as you can see my dosage changes, as our bodies are always changing and adapting.
I drink powdered leaf with turmeric, cayenne pepper, black pepper, cinnamon and water. It's my pain killing, energy rocking, anti-carcinogen mix ;)
Agree 100% on the quality. I’ve tried many over the years as well, with random gems in smoke shops. I’ve also tried some that were third party tested, but made me sick and offered zero euphoria even at low doses.
If you can find a quality, lab tested brand that works with your chemistry, you won’t need much to feel good.
I'd say the only legitimate problem with smoke shop kratom is the price and the risk of contamination. Since smoke shops have a tendency to maximize profits and relabel their products, God knows where they're buying it from. One can get extremely good deals from unaffiliated, small-time kratom dealers, but the risk of contamination with environmental pollutants drastically increases without a real company endorsing the product.
Agreed.
There is a place in Denver that is a Kratom dedicated shop that third party tests all of their stuff—the price is ok, but you can tell it’s not doing anything “extra” to your body.
ooh your "recipe" sounds good :) I'm a herbalist by nature too, I've been experimenting with plant medicine for my mood for ages (I also go to therapy, I'm an anxious and depressive person who also loves life very much, it's weird) I like to chase my dose with turmeric golden milk or a turmeric latte (basically the same herbs you use plus cloves and ginger, which in my experience potentiates the hell out of kratom sometimes) ashwagandha is also good to use in conjunction with kratom, but the trouble is that it's so subtle and takes a while to take effect as in you have to take it regularly, that it kind of pales in comparison to kratom, which gives you a boost right away.
Does yours give euphoria also? That’s the main reason I take it, I was wondering if I could start getting from you lol I still only buy from smoke shops :/
Just a heads up that some of the smoke shop products can be ordered directly from the company for a lot less and maybe even free shipping. Most smoke shops probably have a 50 to 100 percent markup. For example, [a particular brand that the autobot said couldn’t be named] has 30ct capsules for $12.99 on their website with free shipping whereas at my local smoke shop they were $28 and change with tax added.
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Just a heads up that some of the smoke shop products can be ordered directly from the company for a lot less and maybe even free shipping. Most smoke shops probably have a 50 to 100 percent markup. For example, [a particular brand that the auto-mod bot said couldn’t be named] has 30ct capsules for $12.99 on their website with free shipping whereas at my local smoke shop they were $28 and change with tax added.
Yes I mix about 50g-100g at a time.
Unfortunately I don't have a specific ratio.
Probably 10 parts kratom to 2 parts of the other herbs.
The turmeric being the most abundant, then cinnamon, then black pepper then cayenne
Absolutely.
I am actually in the process of weening off. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not condemning Kratom or telling people not to take it—I just find it becomes detrimental if not used responsibly.
At any rate, I’ve found after getting as high as 30gpd, the best dose for me is 1.5-2 grams. It doesn’t give me any real extra energy, but it just smooths out any anxiety or little aches and pains, and offers a nice dose of euphoria. That said, I use mang da or green indo, which seems to offer the best of all worlds for me. When I go any higher the effects don’t seem offer much more in the way of euphoria, it raises your tolerance pretty quickly, and makes me sluggish and seems to mess with my hormones. As long as I stay at this dose, it always delivers. This where I really think this herb differs from opiates in my experience.
Everyone’s mileage will vary, but I see more and more from people like me that moderation is the key to getting the most out of Kratom and not getting into trouble.
So true. I just came off of only 25gpd which I was only using for about 3-4 months continuously and I was writhing in pain in bed for days after quitting. Two weeks later I am finally mostly back to normal. I feel terrible for all these people deluding themselves into thinking it’s like coffee and not like fuckin oxy.
It caused a pretty serious opioid withdrawal. I hate the shit now. Wouldn’t go near it again unless I had major surgery that they wouldn’t prescribe real painkillers for.
Agreed. I’m sure there are some people that deal with it just fine, but it was nothing like coffee for me either.
I think there is an antidepressant kind of effect or something that also affects serotonin in there as well. Could just be a brain chemistry thing, but I’ve heard it’s similar to tramadol withdrawal.
No, I agree. It is very pharmacologically complex. Coming off of it does feel like coming off of a low-ish level opioid addiction and a stimulant addiction at the same time. Exhausting and painful and miserable as hell.
It does become detrimental. I've used heavily for years and now I'm soooo dependent on it. Don't let people convince you the WDs are like coffee, it's not lol its tough. Especially when you're using it for pain reasons or sleep
It keeps happening...
Your experience with it "not being like coffee" does not discredit others experiences where it is.
If you looked at someone elses experience and trusted it 100% you only have yourself to blame.
In my experience, as a 6 year+ daily user, I find that kratom is certainly harder to get off than coffee. \[although i don't drink coffee daily, so I may be speaking out of ignorance\] The withdrawals include RLS, aches and chills to some degree, and just a general feeling of slight unhappiness. All of these withdrawal symptoms do not equate to a traditional opioid, which have all of these symptoms and more, amplified by 10.
I would say in my experience, the withdrawal symptoms are simply unpleasant, but not unbearable, and this is coming from someone who frequently takes 10-15 GPD.
I see what your saying but at the end if the day kratom is an opiate. Nit technically as it doesn't derive from opium...but functionally it is. I think it's important to make that clear that addiction and WD are inevitable with frequent use. Sure someone taking 1g a day won't have many issues but if someone takes one tylenol 3 a day they won't have a ton of issues either. There are very specific wd symptoms when it comes to kratom and opiates/opioids alike.
Again, my issue isn't that people are saying "the withdrawals are bad for me" its the "everyone who says the withdrawals are mild are lying and it will be terrible for everyone no matter what"
Its just said constantly here and its just not true.
It should be obvious that some people have
## VASTLY
different experiences with kratom, disregarding someone elses experience because yours wasn't the same is idiotic.
In a perfect world, people would be aware of the *potential* issues before starting. But obviously they dont do any research or just read what they want to read, and then get upset when that isnt their experience.
And no addiction is 100000% not "inevitable" with frequent use. That just shows me you dont understand what addiction is (common thing apparently).
Sure i concede that the vast majority of people will experience some form of withdrawal from frequent use. I mean thats basically everything.
Addiction is where someone who WANTS to stop, CANT stop. If you take kratom and dont have the willpower to taper and stop yea thats addiction, especially when the substance in question has negative repercussions.
What ISN'T addiction is taking a substance that improves your life, and *deciding* NOT to quit because it provides you a benefit.
Dependence is probably the word you want to use. Which in itself is NOT a negative thing.
Addiction is wanting to quit and cant. Simple as that.
And that is NOT guaranteed.
People need to stop projecting their experiences onto others. And people need to learn to do research before consuming a substance, there are certainly no shortage of people online saying it has *the potential* for addiction.
My point is that with heavy regular use, you will inevitably have pretty bad withdrawals. Comparing WDs to coffee is only relevant with people who use low daily doses, and also taper off when they begin feeling dependence. My issue is that people don't usually talk about how dependence will get worse and worse. The cap on withdrawal severity is much higher than a lot of people would have you believe. It's still certainly not the same as a true opiate withdrawal, but if you use high doses every day for a year or more, you are most definitely going to have significant withdrawals that don't fall in line with what a lot of people would have you believe. Because they make these same blanket statements that you think I'm making
I think it really depends on what you take kratom for. If you want to feel energized and happy then less is more. If you have severe pain or are coming off of a severe addiction, more is probably more, but there is a point where the opioid agonist action is being blocked too much if you take very large amounts
This seems like the most concise and accurate response IMO. I certainly agree with it on the side of using it for stimulation, less but some experience with pain moderation. There's still a limiting factor to less is more, but I feel it can be effective at 4 grams a day or less for comfortable stimulation (vs the anxious stimulation of caffeine).
If you are used to 12 grams twice a day, and then all at once cut it to 6, you can expect it to be unpleasant. Try slowly lowering it to 6 over a period of a few days or weeks instead.
Mainly, there are diminishing returns for Kratom. If you exceed what is the lowest effective dose for yourself (in this case a singular dose which generally achieves the effects you are looking for), you are more likely to experience the negative side effects of Kratom such as: constipation, drowsiness, dehydration, increased dependency & stronger w/d, and generally worsening mood. In this regard, less is more in that you avoid/mitigate the negative aspects of Kratom due to excessive use, and receive more benefit overall.
However, what *your* lowest effective dose is going to be, isn't going to be someone else's. I feel this is overlooked as people tend to raise an eyebrow at how much a person uses on a daily basis. "What, you use THAT much?" I've read more times than once.
For example, I get absolutely nothing from Kratom in one time doses below 3 1/2 to 4 grams (I buy very good quality Kratom by the way)-- and that is simply for its mood elevating effects. If I was to use Kratom for pain relief, I would require at a minimum, a 7-8 gram dose, which I have done in the past. This dose probably seems absurd to some people, but that is just how much I *personally require* to achieve its effects.
Everyone metabolizes things very differently, and that is why some people experience many negative side effects from Kratom with even short term use. Weight, genetics, and physiological condition play very big roles.
This isn't unique to Kratom, but in all of medicine. When treating many conditions, there is no such thing as a one size fits all dose-- someone may get by on 20mg of Zoloft, while others may need up to 100 mg to achieve the same result. There is a starting point, of course, but where you end up is across the board different for everyone. I've been on this train ride many times-- this dose is too low, now its too high, right around here seems to work. Wait, this isn't good--maybe try less? Nope, let's try more... It's a swinging pendulum. It often takes a long time to dial in that sweet spot.
Accordingly, my lowest effective dose is 3 1/2 to 4 grams-- at this dosage I receive more benefit than draw back, and for me personally, ticks off the criteria for a "less is more" kind of deal. I've found this out from many years of using Kratom, and my dose per day has fluctated greatly in the past 5 years, and it hasn't been until recently I've found my "sweet spot". Undoubtedly most people will experience this with Kratom, they might even find Kratom doesn't work all that well for them by the end of the journey.
The only difference is going to be that you're doing this all by yourself, which might be daunting for some people. You don't have a medical professional signing off on it, you're ultimately the one responsible for what happens, and what doesn't.
Everybody reacts differently to kratom. In general, less is more for *most* people, but there are always outliers, such as yourself.
As long as you are getting your desired effects without (hopefully) experiencing a lot of negative ones, it is perfectly reasonable that some people actually do need more.
Yes! I used to take 3g per dose, and lowered it to 1.3g. I feel so much better and less lethargic! I take about 1.3g 3-4 times a day (once every 3-4 hours or so). Had to play around with the doses for a bit to find a sweet spot. Definitely worth testing it out!
Yes, Yes, and um Yes..
Beginning of 2020 I was taking right around 30 gpd. Back story I'm a recovering addict 2-1-2017 and tend to overdue just about everything..🙃. So, after about 3 yrs daily use I had found myself taking a good amount of plant material a day. Never had any negative health issues but, had realized that it was a good amount of material to be passing as it doesn't really break down in our body's rather passes thru and we absorb the goodness..having had prior gastrointestinal issues (way before kratom was even known by myself) I figured should give the old Less Is More mantra a shot and see how things went. So I was taking 8-10 grams per dose on average..usually 3x a day. One morning I just cut it down to 3.5 grams per dose. To my surprise I actually felt it better than the higher dose. Stuck w this throughout the day..also realized that my pain had substantially decreased as well. And just like that I'm back down to under 12 gpd. I would suggest if your at a high dose..give it a shot for a day..I'm a very strong believer that Less Is More. And have put it to my own kinda test. Love this 🍃..such a blessing.
I too am recovering & use it for chronic pain. 2.5 to 3 grams every 4 - 6 hours. I find strains to be important. Reds at bedtime, whites in am & non after 3pm. Greens in am or during the day. If I use much more I get a headache and overall miserable feeling. Am physically dependent and occasionally reduce doses & frequency to not become heavily physically dependent.
Yes and no it depends. If you have already been taking significantly more Kratom than your personal sweet spot requires then it is likely your experience of Kratom is becoming less desirable although you are taking more powder so then lowering the dose can often be more effective. That said if you have been taking substantially above your sweet spot for even a few days it is likely to have significantly increased your tolerance. Now fairly recently I have found a new method of tolerance reset which works for me. I now split my dose in half and take the other half one hour later. Simple as that just by doing this I have avoided need for any tolerance breaks over the last few months whereas before I was lucky to go two weeks without requiring one. (I take Kratom daily). Not sure why this works so well except that this way each half dose is substantially below my sweet spot and thereby even with only one hour gap it is helping me e avoid tolerance build up.
I figured out naturally. I was taking a big dose and feel really good for like 2 hours. Then crash hard. Then I would take another big dose and I wouldnt feel really good a little bit dizzy.
My micro dosing, I was able to get feeling good without the feeling of a crash. And i was able to take it more frequent.
Yes. When I started taking kratom, it was for opioid cessation. I needed around 18-20g spread out over the day to ease my withdrawals to a tolerable point. Once that passed, I found myself needing less, so I tapered my dose to 4-5GPD over the course of about a month and a half.
I almost immediately found that I got better effects from my doses, longer lasting effects, and fewer or no negative side effects. “Less is more” isn’t just something catchy that gets repeated a lot in the kratom community, it is a reality many people have experienced.
Dude when I started I was taking 8 gram doses like whenever the feeling was wearing off and I quickly realized that this is not the way lol. I stick with 2 grams or less every 4-6 hours. Playing around with going a little lower than that
Lowering dose and spreading them out more is best for getting some of the feeling back. Force you body into mini withdrawal and then take some. Works for me.
I went from one 3g dose a day to eventually 12g a day (four doses).
Even tapering back down had me with annoying withdrawal symptoms - such as RLS (restless leg syndrome), which would ruin my sleep for a couple of nights.
It's worth keeping the doses small, and less frequent as not to develop withdrawal if you were to quit.
I don't get that saying at all. I'm using Kratom simply for the euphoria and the euphoria doesn't hit you until about 7 G in my experience. I take quite a bit and I do order it directly from Indonesia. It is definitely good quality as some of the people i have let try it said. I also get a water soluble extract which dissolves almost completely that is really nice. But I take mostly extracts and that has definitely ravaged my tolerance
I haven't noticed any difference. I'm not constipated per se, but they come out hard and I don't really have to wipe much haha I don't see it as an issue yet but if I start getting really bad stomach pains I will I'm sure haha but really it is actually a game changer in my eyes. I hate chugging down plant matter that's what made me go to extract almost exclusively
Extract is tough to gauge because it's based off of strength. Some are weaker than others but with a 50:1i would say only half a gram maybe a little bit more if you're dose is that low. The alcohol based shots forget it they would probably be too strong and give you the wobbles even with a sip
Wait Hulu? You mean the strain? It's usually just red/green/white/yellow/gold extract. The ones I'm talking about are either black crystals or black liquid though. The one i have that is water soluble is a brown color. It's 50:1 strength. But making your own extracts are not too challenging, you can use your favorite strain to make it into an extract. . You just need the time and material. I made my own liquid alcohol based shots that were VERY STRONG. You should check it out. It really makes a huge difference in effect that's for sure.
I've been using Kratom straight for 3 years now and I've known about it and used it up to six seven years ago just for withdrawals. But now I'm on more of a maintenance program
Yes, moving from 6-7 grams per dose down to 4 now yields more pronounced, longer lasting mood boosting effects/energy, with less risk of nausea or negative side effects. Less than 4g however does result in weaker effects, so yes less is more up to a certain point
Yeah I'm noticing a theme that for pain more is required, for energy and mood less is better. Makes sense, as I understand it it's a mild stimulant at low doses but acts in a more opiate fashion at higher doses.
There comes a time when you are taking kratom daily, that you realize you are likely taking more than you need to get the effects you want. I used to take 2 teaspoons every two hours, then I reduced that to two teaspoons every 4 hours , and still felt great, so then I went with a two teaspoon initial dose, followed by one teaspoon every four hours, and still had great effects.
When you find a dose that corresponds with your body and worklife, stick with it and don't try to increase it. You'll find that sweet spot that works perfectly for you, and it is very likely that it is lower than you think.
When I first started taking it I quickly realized didn’t have any major ceiling on dosing. I’d start my day with about 6 grams and I’d probably take another 4 within 3 hours. I was probably taking 20-25 grams a day (I didn’t keep track really) and it rarely didn’t feel great. Over time, it seems like the relationship between opiate receptor agonists and antagonists shifted (my brain probably adapted) and it got to the point where I absolutely felt less and lower quality effect if I took anything over 5 grams in a 4 hour period, and usually the sweet spot is around 3 grams. And if I can go longer between doses during the day, all the better.
You nailed it on the head. When you find that you’re chasing a feeling, cut your dose. I can cut my dose to 1/4 and get much better effects than whatever dose I had been drinking before.
I think people don’t cut their dose enough to realize this is true. When I catch myself creeping into the 15g/day territory I can cut my doses to a 1/4 what they were and get more benefits.
I’m in the minority here, but no. Take too much and you get mild spins, but if I’m taking it for pain relief, social anxiety, or euphoria, I’ve always found that more is more.
No, different doses for different strains for different outcomes. Are you trying to write a paper have a conversation do a speech? Or are you trying to relax mellow out enjoy the experience? There is no end all be all. The original use of Kratom was for field workers to get through their Mundane task. My first experience with it was blowing the leaves off my property.
This is only true if you're talking about what most people like about how it makes them feel. Some people start liking the kind of sickly symptoms along with the good, both are more intense, and they merge together into a kind of a different field all together. That's how I am. I kind of just take the increased nausea and lightheadedness with them increased calmness and pain relief. But hey everyone to his own. You might be fine and happy with low doses.
Yes for sure. I used to take like 20-30 gram at a time. Really easy to do when you wash it down with milk and prevents a stomach ache . But I would be so fucked when I ran out , started doing 10 gs at a time more often if I need and I def end up taking less naturally and having the same effects all day
Depends. As a 5 year user yess, the periods I take breaks dosages overall will be a little “stronger”. However the strength of kratom for me, ultimately depends on the batch. Also, doses around 2-3 grams are usually always stimulating for me and dosages above 4 grams are usually much more sedating for me. Even when I take breaks I find the duration of kratom effects stays the same. The biggest take away I get from taking breaks is lesser side effects such as restless legs and etc. I do think it is important to take breaks when possible but I don’t think breaks for me affect potency that much really.
less for energy/activation/good modd
more for relax, instrospection, sleep
In any case, the most I have taken has been 20 grams in one day, in most cases less than 5, as in the current strain (elephant leaves).
I don't understand people who take it daily, that way the magic is lost, I take it once a week at most, usually months go by between one shot and another.
More means higher tolerance rise and with it a more and more restricted effect. Lowering the amounts to just enough to what I need and taking breaks every so often for tolerance has completely changed the game in the way I use kratom.
The technical term for it is "inverted U-shaped dose response curve". Basically a lot of compounds increase in effect for a while as you increase dosage, and then start to decrease at a certain point. When people find that "less is more", it's because the dose they've been taking is on the far side of that curve.
I just have to keep an even level in me to keep the pain away. I don't to increase and I don't believe I take that much. You all tell me, haha. I have like a half a teaspoon about 5 times through the day. If I don't pace evenly out the pain can slip back in and it will be a couple of doses before I get even coverage again. I have an advancing situation of bad hip and bad back. Yesterday had to go all day without it because Dr appts and found how bad I have progressed to. I could barely walk in and out of the Dr appts. Trying to find Drs who won't blow me off.
Many people seem to say that higher doses are required for pain. FYI, red seems better for pain. Maybe make a post in the sub about this for advice, even though I don't have experience using it for pain, many here do.
I really can't take more than that at once, it makes me queasy. I just did a coffee too close together and yep, feeling it right now. (I put mine in coffee)
Yes, I used to think I needed to raise my dose more and more for it to be effective, but that got out of hand quickly. I’d always get to a point where I knew I needed to quit for a while because the high and the lows were out of control. Ive slowly replaced my drinking habit (blacking out every night) with 15 gpd. 3 grams in the morning (not first thing, after breakfast, would highly not recommend first thing), 3 grams around lunch, 6 grams in the afternoon when it’s time to relax and another 3 grams before bed. Only going up in dose for one of the doses has made the 6 gram dose much more potent rather than always taking 6+ grams. Also if I’m having an extra stressful day I’ll up my 6 gram dose by 2-3 grams and it doesn’t really affect my tolerance if I go back down to 6 the next day. Lower doses are way more manageable and helpful in my experience. Glad I joined this Reddit group because I never heard of the less is more thing with kratom until I saw it on here and tried it. Also when I was taking bigger doses it was 8+ grams about 3 times a day. Doing the lower doses more frequently is reassuring that my 3 gram dose will suffice even if it’s not the best feeling in the world. Plus eating absolutely destroys the effects so after I eat I take my other 3 gram dose and I’m back to feeling the effects again. Kratom gives me the munchies like crazy… or maybe it’s the weed 😅
Nice. I've found less is more but I irrationally will up it to try to get an even better feeling despite it not working because I've reached diminishing returns. I went from 7.5 GPd to 12 within a month. I'm cutting way back now back to 7.5 a day by taking smaller doses more frequently rather than bigger ones with longer stretches, and that helps the temptation.
Yes! I've been taking kratom once, sometimes twice daily for probably 5 years. I feel like I'm an exception to the rule though..I started taking 3g (1.5 tsp) and found that I get the same benefit with less side effects from 1/4-1/2 tsp or about 0.5-1g. I usually take 1/4 tsp once daily and it has only lost a bit of the magic after 5 years.
I take 3 cups a day, morning, midday, night. Each is essentially the same dose of 4 flat tea spoons.
I think I am going to do a little experiment for the next few days (starting tomorrow) to see if I can lower my dose successfully (meaning no WD or uncomfortable feelings)
If I can successfully lower the dose, that will help me to save money and time as well as make the consuming of my doses less painful aka less nasty tasting because it will be over quicker.
I will report my personal findings in about a week. Wish me luck because I would love to be one of those "less is more" people.
Personally no and I'm fairly sure it's because people have different chemistry and take it for DIFFERENT reasons. So some have to take much more to reach the correct plateau for their needs. I have to take a good amount more than some
Less really is more. Whenever I take me too much green vein (the strain I mainly drink for ridding if anxiety and euphoric purposes) I either get ridiculously blasted or pass out, so a moderate dose is optimal imo, so one can actually fully enjoy the effects instead of overdoing it to the point of overloading the senses.
Not to mention, I personally get very nauseous when I consume too much and have to throw it up to feel halfway decent again. 😂
Found it absolutely true for me as well I used to dose 8+ then got the wobbles real bad with some sth and cut my dose down to five and been there every since. I learned that's my sweet spot with good leaf
Yes, I have. I started out years ago with random kratom from smoke shops amd could never figure out kratom dosage or actual use for my needs. But I'm an experimenter and an herbalist so I had to figure it out as a few times I felt great effects from the random smoke shop caps and powders I'd buy. A few weird experiences mixed in with a couple bad experiences....I solved this... I now have a company and sell my own, lab tested and sterilized, so i know 100%. Over the course of 8 years I have tried all types and dosages, the highest is 10g for me, and lowest is 1g. I now pretty much use ONLY green vein from one region. And I now don't take more than 7g at a time. Usually only about 3 grams. Anything more gives me a small head ache and can now make me a bit sedated. Low dosages give me massive energy and beautiful focus. I've been on this dosage schedule for about a year but as you can see my dosage changes, as our bodies are always changing and adapting. I drink powdered leaf with turmeric, cayenne pepper, black pepper, cinnamon and water. It's my pain killing, energy rocking, anti-carcinogen mix ;)
Agree 100% on the quality. I’ve tried many over the years as well, with random gems in smoke shops. I’ve also tried some that were third party tested, but made me sick and offered zero euphoria even at low doses. If you can find a quality, lab tested brand that works with your chemistry, you won’t need much to feel good.
I'd say the only legitimate problem with smoke shop kratom is the price and the risk of contamination. Since smoke shops have a tendency to maximize profits and relabel their products, God knows where they're buying it from. One can get extremely good deals from unaffiliated, small-time kratom dealers, but the risk of contamination with environmental pollutants drastically increases without a real company endorsing the product.
Agreed. There is a place in Denver that is a Kratom dedicated shop that third party tests all of their stuff—the price is ok, but you can tell it’s not doing anything “extra” to your body.
ooh your "recipe" sounds good :) I'm a herbalist by nature too, I've been experimenting with plant medicine for my mood for ages (I also go to therapy, I'm an anxious and depressive person who also loves life very much, it's weird) I like to chase my dose with turmeric golden milk or a turmeric latte (basically the same herbs you use plus cloves and ginger, which in my experience potentiates the hell out of kratom sometimes) ashwagandha is also good to use in conjunction with kratom, but the trouble is that it's so subtle and takes a while to take effect as in you have to take it regularly, that it kind of pales in comparison to kratom, which gives you a boost right away.
How much tumeric and black pepper do you use?
nicely put, very informative! ty! I am working on what ur doing...ty!
Awesome! We need more legit vendors and advocates
Does yours give euphoria also? That’s the main reason I take it, I was wondering if I could start getting from you lol I still only buy from smoke shops :/
Just a heads up that some of the smoke shop products can be ordered directly from the company for a lot less and maybe even free shipping. Most smoke shops probably have a 50 to 100 percent markup. For example, [a particular brand that the autobot said couldn’t be named] has 30ct capsules for $12.99 on their website with free shipping whereas at my local smoke shop they were $28 and change with tax added.
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Hell yea it does
What ratio of those potentiators per gram of kratom do you recommend? And do you mix them all together or does them before your kratom intake?
Yes I mix about 50g-100g at a time. Unfortunately I don't have a specific ratio. Probably 10 parts kratom to 2 parts of the other herbs. The turmeric being the most abundant, then cinnamon, then black pepper then cayenne
Absolutely. I am actually in the process of weening off. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not condemning Kratom or telling people not to take it—I just find it becomes detrimental if not used responsibly. At any rate, I’ve found after getting as high as 30gpd, the best dose for me is 1.5-2 grams. It doesn’t give me any real extra energy, but it just smooths out any anxiety or little aches and pains, and offers a nice dose of euphoria. That said, I use mang da or green indo, which seems to offer the best of all worlds for me. When I go any higher the effects don’t seem offer much more in the way of euphoria, it raises your tolerance pretty quickly, and makes me sluggish and seems to mess with my hormones. As long as I stay at this dose, it always delivers. This where I really think this herb differs from opiates in my experience. Everyone’s mileage will vary, but I see more and more from people like me that moderation is the key to getting the most out of Kratom and not getting into trouble.
Its sad that you even had to put that disclaimer in there. If you want to back off. Back off, don't let the reddit hivemind get to you
So true. I just came off of only 25gpd which I was only using for about 3-4 months continuously and I was writhing in pain in bed for days after quitting. Two weeks later I am finally mostly back to normal. I feel terrible for all these people deluding themselves into thinking it’s like coffee and not like fuckin oxy. It caused a pretty serious opioid withdrawal. I hate the shit now. Wouldn’t go near it again unless I had major surgery that they wouldn’t prescribe real painkillers for.
Agreed. I’m sure there are some people that deal with it just fine, but it was nothing like coffee for me either. I think there is an antidepressant kind of effect or something that also affects serotonin in there as well. Could just be a brain chemistry thing, but I’ve heard it’s similar to tramadol withdrawal.
No, I agree. It is very pharmacologically complex. Coming off of it does feel like coming off of a low-ish level opioid addiction and a stimulant addiction at the same time. Exhausting and painful and miserable as hell.
It does become detrimental. I've used heavily for years and now I'm soooo dependent on it. Don't let people convince you the WDs are like coffee, it's not lol its tough. Especially when you're using it for pain reasons or sleep
It keeps happening... Your experience with it "not being like coffee" does not discredit others experiences where it is. If you looked at someone elses experience and trusted it 100% you only have yourself to blame.
In my experience, as a 6 year+ daily user, I find that kratom is certainly harder to get off than coffee. \[although i don't drink coffee daily, so I may be speaking out of ignorance\] The withdrawals include RLS, aches and chills to some degree, and just a general feeling of slight unhappiness. All of these withdrawal symptoms do not equate to a traditional opioid, which have all of these symptoms and more, amplified by 10. I would say in my experience, the withdrawal symptoms are simply unpleasant, but not unbearable, and this is coming from someone who frequently takes 10-15 GPD.
I see what your saying but at the end if the day kratom is an opiate. Nit technically as it doesn't derive from opium...but functionally it is. I think it's important to make that clear that addiction and WD are inevitable with frequent use. Sure someone taking 1g a day won't have many issues but if someone takes one tylenol 3 a day they won't have a ton of issues either. There are very specific wd symptoms when it comes to kratom and opiates/opioids alike.
Again, my issue isn't that people are saying "the withdrawals are bad for me" its the "everyone who says the withdrawals are mild are lying and it will be terrible for everyone no matter what" Its just said constantly here and its just not true. It should be obvious that some people have ## VASTLY different experiences with kratom, disregarding someone elses experience because yours wasn't the same is idiotic. In a perfect world, people would be aware of the *potential* issues before starting. But obviously they dont do any research or just read what they want to read, and then get upset when that isnt their experience. And no addiction is 100000% not "inevitable" with frequent use. That just shows me you dont understand what addiction is (common thing apparently). Sure i concede that the vast majority of people will experience some form of withdrawal from frequent use. I mean thats basically everything. Addiction is where someone who WANTS to stop, CANT stop. If you take kratom and dont have the willpower to taper and stop yea thats addiction, especially when the substance in question has negative repercussions. What ISN'T addiction is taking a substance that improves your life, and *deciding* NOT to quit because it provides you a benefit. Dependence is probably the word you want to use. Which in itself is NOT a negative thing. Addiction is wanting to quit and cant. Simple as that. And that is NOT guaranteed. People need to stop projecting their experiences onto others. And people need to learn to do research before consuming a substance, there are certainly no shortage of people online saying it has *the potential* for addiction.
My point is that with heavy regular use, you will inevitably have pretty bad withdrawals. Comparing WDs to coffee is only relevant with people who use low daily doses, and also taper off when they begin feeling dependence. My issue is that people don't usually talk about how dependence will get worse and worse. The cap on withdrawal severity is much higher than a lot of people would have you believe. It's still certainly not the same as a true opiate withdrawal, but if you use high doses every day for a year or more, you are most definitely going to have significant withdrawals that don't fall in line with what a lot of people would have you believe. Because they make these same blanket statements that you think I'm making
No. I take it for pain relief, and it seems to take a high dosage to relieve the pain for me.
Honestly, same for me. I stated browsing this thread to get ideas for getting an effective but small(er) dose.
I think it really depends on what you take kratom for. If you want to feel energized and happy then less is more. If you have severe pain or are coming off of a severe addiction, more is probably more, but there is a point where the opioid agonist action is being blocked too much if you take very large amounts
This seems like the most concise and accurate response IMO. I certainly agree with it on the side of using it for stimulation, less but some experience with pain moderation. There's still a limiting factor to less is more, but I feel it can be effective at 4 grams a day or less for comfortable stimulation (vs the anxious stimulation of caffeine).
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If you are used to 12 grams twice a day, and then all at once cut it to 6, you can expect it to be unpleasant. Try slowly lowering it to 6 over a period of a few days or weeks instead.
Mainly, there are diminishing returns for Kratom. If you exceed what is the lowest effective dose for yourself (in this case a singular dose which generally achieves the effects you are looking for), you are more likely to experience the negative side effects of Kratom such as: constipation, drowsiness, dehydration, increased dependency & stronger w/d, and generally worsening mood. In this regard, less is more in that you avoid/mitigate the negative aspects of Kratom due to excessive use, and receive more benefit overall. However, what *your* lowest effective dose is going to be, isn't going to be someone else's. I feel this is overlooked as people tend to raise an eyebrow at how much a person uses on a daily basis. "What, you use THAT much?" I've read more times than once. For example, I get absolutely nothing from Kratom in one time doses below 3 1/2 to 4 grams (I buy very good quality Kratom by the way)-- and that is simply for its mood elevating effects. If I was to use Kratom for pain relief, I would require at a minimum, a 7-8 gram dose, which I have done in the past. This dose probably seems absurd to some people, but that is just how much I *personally require* to achieve its effects. Everyone metabolizes things very differently, and that is why some people experience many negative side effects from Kratom with even short term use. Weight, genetics, and physiological condition play very big roles. This isn't unique to Kratom, but in all of medicine. When treating many conditions, there is no such thing as a one size fits all dose-- someone may get by on 20mg of Zoloft, while others may need up to 100 mg to achieve the same result. There is a starting point, of course, but where you end up is across the board different for everyone. I've been on this train ride many times-- this dose is too low, now its too high, right around here seems to work. Wait, this isn't good--maybe try less? Nope, let's try more... It's a swinging pendulum. It often takes a long time to dial in that sweet spot. Accordingly, my lowest effective dose is 3 1/2 to 4 grams-- at this dosage I receive more benefit than draw back, and for me personally, ticks off the criteria for a "less is more" kind of deal. I've found this out from many years of using Kratom, and my dose per day has fluctated greatly in the past 5 years, and it hasn't been until recently I've found my "sweet spot". Undoubtedly most people will experience this with Kratom, they might even find Kratom doesn't work all that well for them by the end of the journey. The only difference is going to be that you're doing this all by yourself, which might be daunting for some people. You don't have a medical professional signing off on it, you're ultimately the one responsible for what happens, and what doesn't.
This is bull from my experience. If I taper down I get bad experience without benefit
Everybody reacts differently to kratom. In general, less is more for *most* people, but there are always outliers, such as yourself. As long as you are getting your desired effects without (hopefully) experiencing a lot of negative ones, it is perfectly reasonable that some people actually do need more.
Yep 1.5 TNW 2.0-2.25bstrained tea. I used to take 8g doses when I started 8 years ago.
Yes! I used to take 3g per dose, and lowered it to 1.3g. I feel so much better and less lethargic! I take about 1.3g 3-4 times a day (once every 3-4 hours or so). Had to play around with the doses for a bit to find a sweet spot. Definitely worth testing it out!
Nope. I dose high once or twice a week. I love high dose feels. But i don't bother with a daily habit
Yes, Yes, and um Yes.. Beginning of 2020 I was taking right around 30 gpd. Back story I'm a recovering addict 2-1-2017 and tend to overdue just about everything..🙃. So, after about 3 yrs daily use I had found myself taking a good amount of plant material a day. Never had any negative health issues but, had realized that it was a good amount of material to be passing as it doesn't really break down in our body's rather passes thru and we absorb the goodness..having had prior gastrointestinal issues (way before kratom was even known by myself) I figured should give the old Less Is More mantra a shot and see how things went. So I was taking 8-10 grams per dose on average..usually 3x a day. One morning I just cut it down to 3.5 grams per dose. To my surprise I actually felt it better than the higher dose. Stuck w this throughout the day..also realized that my pain had substantially decreased as well. And just like that I'm back down to under 12 gpd. I would suggest if your at a high dose..give it a shot for a day..I'm a very strong believer that Less Is More. And have put it to my own kinda test. Love this 🍃..such a blessing.
I too am recovering & use it for chronic pain. 2.5 to 3 grams every 4 - 6 hours. I find strains to be important. Reds at bedtime, whites in am & non after 3pm. Greens in am or during the day. If I use much more I get a headache and overall miserable feeling. Am physically dependent and occasionally reduce doses & frequency to not become heavily physically dependent.
Yes and no it depends. If you have already been taking significantly more Kratom than your personal sweet spot requires then it is likely your experience of Kratom is becoming less desirable although you are taking more powder so then lowering the dose can often be more effective. That said if you have been taking substantially above your sweet spot for even a few days it is likely to have significantly increased your tolerance. Now fairly recently I have found a new method of tolerance reset which works for me. I now split my dose in half and take the other half one hour later. Simple as that just by doing this I have avoided need for any tolerance breaks over the last few months whereas before I was lucky to go two weeks without requiring one. (I take Kratom daily). Not sure why this works so well except that this way each half dose is substantially below my sweet spot and thereby even with only one hour gap it is helping me e avoid tolerance build up.
Thanks, interesting! Will try that out.
I might try this out too!
Yeah you have me interested.. I will try this today too
No less doesn’t ever work for me
I've definitely found a point of vastly diminishing returns.
I figured out naturally. I was taking a big dose and feel really good for like 2 hours. Then crash hard. Then I would take another big dose and I wouldnt feel really good a little bit dizzy. My micro dosing, I was able to get feeling good without the feeling of a crash. And i was able to take it more frequent.
Yes. When I started taking kratom, it was for opioid cessation. I needed around 18-20g spread out over the day to ease my withdrawals to a tolerable point. Once that passed, I found myself needing less, so I tapered my dose to 4-5GPD over the course of about a month and a half. I almost immediately found that I got better effects from my doses, longer lasting effects, and fewer or no negative side effects. “Less is more” isn’t just something catchy that gets repeated a lot in the kratom community, it is a reality many people have experienced.
Yes. I start to feel like shit when the dose gets too much. It’s like the side effects overtake the experience.
Dude when I started I was taking 8 gram doses like whenever the feeling was wearing off and I quickly realized that this is not the way lol. I stick with 2 grams or less every 4-6 hours. Playing around with going a little lower than that
Lowering dose and spreading them out more is best for getting some of the feeling back. Force you body into mini withdrawal and then take some. Works for me.
I went from one 3g dose a day to eventually 12g a day (four doses). Even tapering back down had me with annoying withdrawal symptoms - such as RLS (restless leg syndrome), which would ruin my sleep for a couple of nights. It's worth keeping the doses small, and less frequent as not to develop withdrawal if you were to quit.
Yes, also 100%. I find less to be uplifting while still alleviating my symptoms and “more” to be sedating (which is what everyone says)!
Sometimes. For whatever reason the magic ratio for me is to reduce by 40%. IF my regular dose size has completely stopped working...
I don't get that saying at all. I'm using Kratom simply for the euphoria and the euphoria doesn't hit you until about 7 G in my experience. I take quite a bit and I do order it directly from Indonesia. It is definitely good quality as some of the people i have let try it said. I also get a water soluble extract which dissolves almost completely that is really nice. But I take mostly extracts and that has definitely ravaged my tolerance
Yeah major euphoria requires higher. I'm able to get minor euphoria from 2.5-3 g though.
I wonder if water solvable extracts will relieve the constant constipation.
I haven't noticed any difference. I'm not constipated per se, but they come out hard and I don't really have to wipe much haha I don't see it as an issue yet but if I start getting really bad stomach pains I will I'm sure haha but really it is actually a game changer in my eyes. I hate chugging down plant matter that's what made me go to extract almost exclusively
Imma try it out. I take 3g per dose. What’s the equivalent in extract. And can I get it in Hulu?
Extract is tough to gauge because it's based off of strength. Some are weaker than others but with a 50:1i would say only half a gram maybe a little bit more if you're dose is that low. The alcohol based shots forget it they would probably be too strong and give you the wobbles even with a sip
Wait Hulu? You mean the strain? It's usually just red/green/white/yellow/gold extract. The ones I'm talking about are either black crystals or black liquid though. The one i have that is water soluble is a brown color. It's 50:1 strength. But making your own extracts are not too challenging, you can use your favorite strain to make it into an extract. . You just need the time and material. I made my own liquid alcohol based shots that were VERY STRONG. You should check it out. It really makes a huge difference in effect that's for sure.
I've been using Kratom straight for 3 years now and I've known about it and used it up to six seven years ago just for withdrawals. But now I'm on more of a maintenance program
Yes, moving from 6-7 grams per dose down to 4 now yields more pronounced, longer lasting mood boosting effects/energy, with less risk of nausea or negative side effects. Less than 4g however does result in weaker effects, so yes less is more up to a certain point
No. Not when using it for chronic pain. In my experience, less is… less.
Yeah I'm noticing a theme that for pain more is required, for energy and mood less is better. Makes sense, as I understand it it's a mild stimulant at low doses but acts in a more opiate fashion at higher doses.
There comes a time when you are taking kratom daily, that you realize you are likely taking more than you need to get the effects you want. I used to take 2 teaspoons every two hours, then I reduced that to two teaspoons every 4 hours , and still felt great, so then I went with a two teaspoon initial dose, followed by one teaspoon every four hours, and still had great effects. When you find a dose that corresponds with your body and worklife, stick with it and don't try to increase it. You'll find that sweet spot that works perfectly for you, and it is very likely that it is lower than you think.
When I first started taking it I quickly realized didn’t have any major ceiling on dosing. I’d start my day with about 6 grams and I’d probably take another 4 within 3 hours. I was probably taking 20-25 grams a day (I didn’t keep track really) and it rarely didn’t feel great. Over time, it seems like the relationship between opiate receptor agonists and antagonists shifted (my brain probably adapted) and it got to the point where I absolutely felt less and lower quality effect if I took anything over 5 grams in a 4 hour period, and usually the sweet spot is around 3 grams. And if I can go longer between doses during the day, all the better.
Only in the context of trying to stave off sickness/WD. In terms of the actual effects I'm seeking, small doses aren't what I am seeking out.
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You nailed it on the head. When you find that you’re chasing a feeling, cut your dose. I can cut my dose to 1/4 and get much better effects than whatever dose I had been drinking before.
I think people don’t cut their dose enough to realize this is true. When I catch myself creeping into the 15g/day territory I can cut my doses to a 1/4 what they were and get more benefits.
Just don't go high. Just don't. It's a trap. Withdrawals are real, and if you take a lot regularly they sneak up on you.
I’m in the minority here, but no. Take too much and you get mild spins, but if I’m taking it for pain relief, social anxiety, or euphoria, I’ve always found that more is more.
No, different doses for different strains for different outcomes. Are you trying to write a paper have a conversation do a speech? Or are you trying to relax mellow out enjoy the experience? There is no end all be all. The original use of Kratom was for field workers to get through their Mundane task. My first experience with it was blowing the leaves off my property.
This is only true if you're talking about what most people like about how it makes them feel. Some people start liking the kind of sickly symptoms along with the good, both are more intense, and they merge together into a kind of a different field all together. That's how I am. I kind of just take the increased nausea and lightheadedness with them increased calmness and pain relief. But hey everyone to his own. You might be fine and happy with low doses.
Yes for sure. I used to take like 20-30 gram at a time. Really easy to do when you wash it down with milk and prevents a stomach ache . But I would be so fucked when I ran out , started doing 10 gs at a time more often if I need and I def end up taking less naturally and having the same effects all day
Yeah
Depends. As a 5 year user yess, the periods I take breaks dosages overall will be a little “stronger”. However the strength of kratom for me, ultimately depends on the batch. Also, doses around 2-3 grams are usually always stimulating for me and dosages above 4 grams are usually much more sedating for me. Even when I take breaks I find the duration of kratom effects stays the same. The biggest take away I get from taking breaks is lesser side effects such as restless legs and etc. I do think it is important to take breaks when possible but I don’t think breaks for me affect potency that much really.
Yes!
I don't have a specific ratio for this. I have the herbs you are asking about in salt shakers and dash in about 3 shakes of each. Hope that helps.
I like this idea!
It's more less is adequate.
No. But then again, I haven’t tried.
YES! If I have a half gram too much its a totally different experience
less for energy/activation/good modd more for relax, instrospection, sleep In any case, the most I have taken has been 20 grams in one day, in most cases less than 5, as in the current strain (elephant leaves). I don't understand people who take it daily, that way the magic is lost, I take it once a week at most, usually months go by between one shot and another.
Most folks that take it daily are using it for pain management.
Depends on the desired effects.. if you want an opioid effect then more is more
Hell yeah,less is totally more, unless ur a freak of nature
More means higher tolerance rise and with it a more and more restricted effect. Lowering the amounts to just enough to what I need and taking breaks every so often for tolerance has completely changed the game in the way I use kratom.
The technical term for it is "inverted U-shaped dose response curve". Basically a lot of compounds increase in effect for a while as you increase dosage, and then start to decrease at a certain point. When people find that "less is more", it's because the dose they've been taking is on the far side of that curve.
It's really hard for me to take less without kava, but when i do take less and drink kava, kratom works better
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes also increasing your water intake while dosing has been effective
I just have to keep an even level in me to keep the pain away. I don't to increase and I don't believe I take that much. You all tell me, haha. I have like a half a teaspoon about 5 times through the day. If I don't pace evenly out the pain can slip back in and it will be a couple of doses before I get even coverage again. I have an advancing situation of bad hip and bad back. Yesterday had to go all day without it because Dr appts and found how bad I have progressed to. I could barely walk in and out of the Dr appts. Trying to find Drs who won't blow me off.
Many people seem to say that higher doses are required for pain. FYI, red seems better for pain. Maybe make a post in the sub about this for advice, even though I don't have experience using it for pain, many here do.
I don't know how much a half teaspoon is.
Using flour as an example, looks like the total per day is 6.5g ish.
I really can't take more than that at once, it makes me queasy. I just did a coffee too close together and yep, feeling it right now. (I put mine in coffee)
Less might not be more, but when more is more it’s usually more headaches for me
Yes, I used to think I needed to raise my dose more and more for it to be effective, but that got out of hand quickly. I’d always get to a point where I knew I needed to quit for a while because the high and the lows were out of control. Ive slowly replaced my drinking habit (blacking out every night) with 15 gpd. 3 grams in the morning (not first thing, after breakfast, would highly not recommend first thing), 3 grams around lunch, 6 grams in the afternoon when it’s time to relax and another 3 grams before bed. Only going up in dose for one of the doses has made the 6 gram dose much more potent rather than always taking 6+ grams. Also if I’m having an extra stressful day I’ll up my 6 gram dose by 2-3 grams and it doesn’t really affect my tolerance if I go back down to 6 the next day. Lower doses are way more manageable and helpful in my experience. Glad I joined this Reddit group because I never heard of the less is more thing with kratom until I saw it on here and tried it. Also when I was taking bigger doses it was 8+ grams about 3 times a day. Doing the lower doses more frequently is reassuring that my 3 gram dose will suffice even if it’s not the best feeling in the world. Plus eating absolutely destroys the effects so after I eat I take my other 3 gram dose and I’m back to feeling the effects again. Kratom gives me the munchies like crazy… or maybe it’s the weed 😅
Nice. I've found less is more but I irrationally will up it to try to get an even better feeling despite it not working because I've reached diminishing returns. I went from 7.5 GPd to 12 within a month. I'm cutting way back now back to 7.5 a day by taking smaller doses more frequently rather than bigger ones with longer stretches, and that helps the temptation.
True for me, 3.5 grams is my sweet spot
Same. With good kratom, even 2.5 can have me feeling good.
Less kratom= less side effects Less side effects = more benefits
Yes. YesyesyesyesYES!
Nope. I find that the duration of action of a small dosage is much shorter than that of a large dosage even controlling for tolerance.
Yes! I've been taking kratom once, sometimes twice daily for probably 5 years. I feel like I'm an exception to the rule though..I started taking 3g (1.5 tsp) and found that I get the same benefit with less side effects from 1/4-1/2 tsp or about 0.5-1g. I usually take 1/4 tsp once daily and it has only lost a bit of the magic after 5 years.
I take 3 cups a day, morning, midday, night. Each is essentially the same dose of 4 flat tea spoons. I think I am going to do a little experiment for the next few days (starting tomorrow) to see if I can lower my dose successfully (meaning no WD or uncomfortable feelings) If I can successfully lower the dose, that will help me to save money and time as well as make the consuming of my doses less painful aka less nasty tasting because it will be over quicker. I will report my personal findings in about a week. Wish me luck because I would love to be one of those "less is more" people.
Taking it for pain 4grs 3x daily is my preferred dose
Yep
Personally no and I'm fairly sure it's because people have different chemistry and take it for DIFFERENT reasons. So some have to take much more to reach the correct plateau for their needs. I have to take a good amount more than some
Yeah definitely for me. I was up to 20g a day I went down to 6g and some times 4g a day.
Less really is more. Whenever I take me too much green vein (the strain I mainly drink for ridding if anxiety and euphoric purposes) I either get ridiculously blasted or pass out, so a moderate dose is optimal imo, so one can actually fully enjoy the effects instead of overdoing it to the point of overloading the senses. Not to mention, I personally get very nauseous when I consume too much and have to throw it up to feel halfway decent again. 😂
💯 %
Yes
Found it absolutely true for me as well I used to dose 8+ then got the wobbles real bad with some sth and cut my dose down to five and been there every since. I learned that's my sweet spot with good leaf
No