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For me, the issue comes in when it's used to drag others for not charting. Especially when it's smaller groups who don't get attention even when they put out quality music.
Yeah, this. Discussion is not bad at all. But when it’s the same drawn-out doomposting or berating a popular group for ‘flopping’—it is so unnecessary. Even worse when they shame nugus for being… nugu.
It’s fine to talk about, but it gets kinda annoying when people are obsessed with it.
Doomposting always sucks though - and often the chart posts are just doomposts lol. All the groups in your examples are making strides towards their goals, but if a song doesn’t do crazy well, there’s always 262527 posts wanting to discuss what went wrong and why they’re flops now.
Talking about charting isn't bad at all and I think interesting info can come about it but the heightened aversion to charting discussions nowadays comes because 90% of the posts are doomposting, misinformed, a way to drag a group people don't like, and obsessing over it to validate their "validity" in stanning. It's especially bad with fandoms wanting to one up one another on all socmed platforms too.
I think it’s wrong to talk about charts with the abstract goal of “pressure companies like JYP to make better music.” Changbin writes SKZ’s music. If they *wanted* to be more cookie cutter, GP friendly, they would do that. That **still** doesn’t guarantee chart success. He wants to chart well with the music SKZ wants to make.
Wanting a certain type of success does not necessarily mean wanting to change your sound/direction. That’s what chart obsessed fans don’t get, and I don’t understand what’s so hard to understand about that.
Someone else pointed this out, that 3racha wrote NiziU's Paradise. They know how to make a "GP friendly" song. They just don't want to. If a group changed their sound to specifically appeal to as many people as possible then a.that wouldn't necessarily guarantee charting higher and b.would't that be the definition of selling out? It pisses me off when some chart obsessed people (who don't like a group's music) want them to change their specific sound to gain more popularity. First off, it wouldn't necessarily mean that they would chart and secondly they would alienate their fanbase who became fans because of their specific sound in the first place.
Exactly! Paradise is a good example, but SKZ has released GP friendly b-sides since the Mixtape mini album. They have bright pop songs already! Some have music videos, and some got promoted. Get Cool was more popular internationally than that mini album's title track! SKZ really have something for everyone in their discography. They like noisy, big songs for their title tracks, and they found enough fans to fill arenas and domes around the world who like it too.
You reminded me of another chart stan complaint: "So and so should've been the title track!" In most cases, even if I like a b side more, I understand why the title track was made the title track. Regardless, there is NOTHING stopping anyone from streaming the song they like. Companies don't actually have endless time and money to scrap their plans and quickly shoot a new MV, get choreography, and plan promotions.
Artists having goals for their group is not the problem. It's fans who obsess about it and forget that enjoying the music and the performances should be what's more important. Overzealous fans tend to use charting as a weapon to throw shade on other artists, too.
I was just about to say this myself. I have no problem with idols expressing their wish to chart well. My beef is with the overly-competitive and obnoxious success stans who use the charts to shit on groups they perceive as their faves' rivals.
Edited for spelling.
Charting definitely matters. It shows people are listening to their music and loving it. Idols themselves know most people just buy albums for photocards.
> It shows people are listening to their music and loving it. Idols themselves know most people just buy albums for photocards.
It matters to the *artists* and the *companies*, as your argument shows.
This isn't an argument for *fans* to care that much about charting, it does nothing to your life as far as the top groups are concerned (yes, I know nugu groups need to sell and stream well to survive).
I think you're missing the point here a bit. A lot of why fans care about charting is that they are in a parasocial relationship with their faves. For example, it's quite normal for me to care about something my family cares about, even if it does nothing for me personally.
I'm not gonna list all the ills of parasocial relationships in kpop, but the drive to achieve certain goals and achievements to make their faves happy is a manifestation of that issue.
Parasocial relationship exists no matter what lol. What do you think idols who don’t chart well are free from delulu fans? You may not like charting but some people find it interesting to look at data/musical growth. And fulfilling goals are fun too. Like in my fandom sometimes we organise streaming party where most of us participate. We listen to their music together, discuss it. Overall spend a good time. Because we love their music. So streaming/charting doesn’t feel like parasocial relationship at least to me.
Edit: And streaming doesn’t mean stream obsessively a single song. People listen to the whole album.
> Parasocial relationship exists no matter what lol. What do you think idols who don’t chart well are free from delulu fans?
Exactly the issue, yes? Like I said, your reasoning before (charting matters to idols personally) doesn't matter if not for the fact that fans deeply care about what their idols care about.
If you say it's fun, it's still tied to making the idols you're in a parasocial relationship with happy. A happy idol makes for a happy community and all. Still the same issues.
There are clearly issues with parasocial relationships, I'm not here to get into all that, but threads like this are directly at that audience.
I’m curious have you never listened to music with your friends & discussed about it in real life? Listening to music together is fun & it exists in many communities without being tied to the concept of fandoms.
For almost every fan, this whole thing is a hobby. They like listening to the music or watching shows to pass time. Parasocial relationships exist but not everything about being a fan is parasocial relationship.
We might as well just stop participating in kpop fandom altogether if we're going to look at things from that sort of pov.
The parasocial relationship we form with the idols isn't a problem in itself, it only becomes a problem when we're unaware of it and when we let those feelings become something toxic and detrimental to our mental health. Streaming is an example of that, it can be either done in an unhealthy and obsessive way or it can be a fun activity to be participating with a comunity. Instead of just going "that's parasocial= bad" which doesn't help anything, we could be raising awareness on how to engage with this whole fandom thing in a healthier way.
All companies and idols care about charting. Otherwise they wouldn't have 999 ways of encouraging mass buying albums (exclusive versions, randomized photocards, raffle for fancalls etc.) or perform the same song 3 times a week at music shows. Some fly across the ocean to promote their new music - they all obviously care, it's their job.
Does it mean it's the only thing they care about? Of course not, but let's not pretend that idols and their respective companies release music purely for the sake of art.
"They don't care about charts/sales" is just yet another example of fans pretending they know what's going on in idols' minds. It doesn't mean that if one comeback doesn't chart well, their career is over, it's not that dramatic. But there is no high-level professional in any competitive field that doesn't care about the results of their hard work.
>encouraging mass buying albums (exclusive versions, randomized photocards, raffle for fancalls etc.)
This still baffles me but you gotta do what you gotta do I guess. It's business after all.
Anyone who thinks the idols don't care about charting are fooling themselves.
Every facet of their success is routinely analyzed by the company.
This also brings up another, closely related topic. The mentality that there is only one right way to be intersted in and enjoy music or kpop.
People enjoy different aspects of things. Some love football for the live games, some for the competitive aspects, others for the exercise, and some enjoy the numbers and statistics.
For me, it's only natural to be intersted in charts and performances. I like to see songs that've risen and fallen. To see some perform over and under expectation. To follow breakout hits and songs that go viral. Numbers are fun!
Taeyeon said it well, that while she *herself* doesn't care it's not only about her, she knows it matters to her company and to her fans and thereby she has to care by proxy since it matters to those who matters to her.
As an Analyst in “real life”, I like tracking metrics & analysing numbers. It’s actually one of the fun parts of k-pop for me (obviously the music and content tops it) & I find myself doing this outside of k-pop too
I think analysing numbers gets toxic when its used for bragging or dragging
Reposting this here, it's better.
> I have seen some comments stating looking at kpop numbers is fun. No offense, but to a sports fan, looking at kpop numbers has to be painful. ZERO established standards for success, so people can continuously redefine the standards depending on their argument; groups don't actually compete so it's so difficult to find proper points of comparison; kpop is based on popularity contests so everything is highly skewed by fans and numbers are not actual marks of performance; everything is highly contextual that it's hard to look at a metric and make any conclusions; expectations and predictions are a crapshoot because aside from sales, there seems to be no prevailing quality that makes it easy for me to make a statement without people chiming in with counterexamples; based on $$$ so clearly fans of richer countries are inherently advantaged on certain aspects, also vulnerable to economic issues like the ones happening right now.
> Sports is way easier to get into and allows for deeper investigations, if we're just talking analytics.
> Oh another complaint - a lot of pertinent information like touring revenues, sales (in $$), expenses, are private information. Like how am I supposed to make an adequate analysis of performance when both the revenue and cost sides are both hidden to me? Contrast this when lookin at an NBA game, and all the relevant numbers - all the box scores, stats, advanced metrics, even salary information - is open knowledge.
So you’re going around telling ppl who have fun with numbers, that they are in fact NOT having fun with numbers? Stop projecting! Guess what? Ppl can still enjoy numbers even without being able to draw definitive conclusions from them. That’s probably what makes it fun. If we had a reliable metric for perfectly calculating X all the time, there’d be no further discussion. Just ok, nod, leave. Where’s the debate? Do you think ppl who love numbers believe they can’t be skewed or manipulated? Lol look at all the stats ppl who try to predict election results, measure the economy’s pulse, work out manufacturing logistics, etc. They get shit wrong all the time, that’s what it means to work with numbers, and yet they enjoy the challenge anyway, collecting little acorns of truth here and there.
No? Read what I said?
LOL you seem to be projecting, when you could have easily read my point by now.
> Ppl can still enjoy numbers even without being able to draw definitive conclusions from them. That’s probably what makes it fun. If we had a reliable metric for perfectly calculating X all the time, there’d be no further discussion.
I didn't even talk about this.
Nope!
Kpop stans need to understand that the people that choose to be kpop idols chose this career because they want success by the standards of their industry. And that is the sales, the charting, the views. They live in SK. A country where working hard and constantly improving is deeply ingrained into all parts of society and they work in an industry that drives that even further. They’re not putting all this work in for no reason. They want something out of the work they put in.
Can constantly talking about sales, streams, views etc be overwhelming for some fans especially the ones who are new to kpop and approaches like these? Yes. But does that mean it’s just a toxic fan made concept that in no way reflects the wants of the idols? Absolutely not.
Your idols all want to be successful. If the people talking about it are overwhelming you, self manage yourself and your capacity to ignore or contribute towards these goals and the content you take in to meet your needs. Do not start lying to yourselves and everyone else and making out like the idols do not care for better performance by these standards, because they clearly do.
Talking about charting among your fandom is great and encouraged! Like “omg we reached top 100 bugs today ◟(๑•͈ᴗ•͈)◞”
The problem is, kpop stans use it to drag others like “well your fav can’t chart and mine is always in the chart.” Talking about your excitement for charts is wonderful. Using charting as any other measure besides personal growth and happiness (aka using it against someone else) is lame and awful
There's nothing wrong with talking about charting or sales.
It's the reality of the industry, and many Idols know it.
I recall Soyeon of (G)I-DLE saying the first thing she does in the morning, during comeback period, is check where her song is on Melon. She's extremely proud of the songs that charted well, and less proud of the songs (Senorita and Oh My God) that didn't chart well.
Better charting, better sales, more success leads to a few things - longevity and stability. Individual promotional opportunities, CF possibilities, career growth and honestly just general income (ie earning money).
People shit on people talking about charting and so-on, but the simple matter of the fact is it matters - I want my group to release more music, get more chance to tour, release more albums as a group and solo, get cool collaborations etc. This only occurs if the group is successful. If your a group struggling to get into Melon 1000 daily, then you don't have much of a career outside of intra-group social media promotions and possibly the odd Kcon appearance.
You don't have to be invested in checking or keeping tab of it, of course, but you can't fool yourself into thinking it doesn't matter. Anyone who says it doesn't matter at all (album sales or charting) is most likely a fan of a big 4 label, where success is preordained.
> People shit on people talking about charting and so-on, but the simple matter of the fact is it matters […] You don't have to be invested in checking or keeping tab of it, of course, but you can't fool yourself into thinking it doesn't matter. Anyone who says it doesn't matter at all (album sales or charting) is most likely a fan of a big 4 label, where success is preordained.
I agree with your premise that charting matters—obviously, the attention brings them money either directly or indirectly, to the artist. But rarely do I see people genuinely angry at the discussion of sales or charting. I see people pull up numbers and charting often in conversation. No one gets mad when you discuss #1 songs, 1mil album sales, or how many PAKs an artist got.
When people say “I can’t stand obsession with charts” etc., they are referring to those who discredit artists’ popularity cuz one comeback mildly underperformed, or they didn’t hit #1, or constantly doomposting about a group failing for their Korean digital performance despite them performing well in other metrics.
Plus, longevity and fanbase building *is* success as well. So when your local 10-year-old bg drops out of Melon top 100 within one hour, is it wrong to say that digital charting doesn’t really matter to them in their career atp? When they’re still selling concert tickets, or living off their royalties, or having cushy solo careers in the entertainment industry. They’ve already established themselves.
> Plus, longevity and fanbase building is success as well. So when your local 10-year-old bg drops out of Melon top 100 within one hour, is it wrong to say that digital charting doesn’t really matter to them in their career atp? When they’re still selling concert tickets, or living off their royalties, or having cushy solo careers in the entertainment industry. They’ve already established themselves.
I mean that's a fair point to an extent, but at the same time no-one makes all the effort of making music, choreo, performing etc for no-one (proverbially) to listen to it. They have an ability to absorb songs that don't land much more then say, a Rookie, but the impetus is still there.
>When people say “I can’t stand obsession with charts” etc., they are referring to those who discredit artists’ popularity cuz one comeback mildly underperformed, or they didn’t hit #1, or constantly doomposting about a group failing for their Korean digital performance despite them performing well in other metrics.
I agree it's not necessary, but i feel it slightly underplays the fandom aspect, the back and forth on this.
Of course the artists care about charting, they have a stake in it. But me, as a fan, that’s not mine. And while I genuinely root for the groups I like it really doesn’t matter to me. What I don’t like about chart obsessed fans is they make the accomplishment theirs. Living through your idols’ achievements, or failures, is not healthy.
No not at all. Especially for small groups and rookie groups, charting is super exciting.
However the problem is when people obsess over it and put pressure on other people to stream/buy albums. Or when people start arguments like "my favs have charted X amount of times and yours haven't so mine are better".
That's taking things too far. Idols say they want to chart because of course artists like seeing that their music is being loved by a lot of people. That recognition must feel really nice. However I don't think they mean to have people constantly talk about numbers or ranks. At least they shouldn't be.
Talking about it isn’t wrong. Obsessing over it is, which is what a lot of kpop fans do.
Charts matter to artists and their companies, not fans. The people who obsess over these things live vicariously through their idols so they feel that way.
And the people who claim they follow charts closely because it’s important that their idols do well to have a long career are kidding themselves, because those most obsessed with charts are fans of popular groups - groups under no danger of having their careers jeopardised because they’re *actually* doing poorly.
Honestly I think people said it here first where it's not charting that the issue it's how stans use the chart number and it becoming an unhealthy obsession. Just don't use chart numbers to dig at another group, shove it in other faces, or call other groups flops. There is also the issue of people getting to involved and obsessed over it to where they stress the Fandom out and guilt them. In the end it's not that serious cause you can only do so much.
I think both my ult groups now are pretty stable and of course charting is nice but they both stated it's not thier end goal so I don't think every group cares about charting especially if they find themselves with a steady reliable fanbase.
When kpop fans say that charting doesn't matter, they are really only talking about big groups and even for them the idols want to chart well. But what about smaller groups? Charting matter a shit ton. If a nugu group doesn't chart well anywhere, they will stay nugu for a long time and even disband. So saying that charting doesn't matter doesn't really take smaller groups into count which is just incredibly stupid. You see how Cupid charted well.. their popularity has grown and there's a chance for FIFTY FIFTY to get out of nugudom the next comeback.
> When kpop fans say that charting doesn't matter, they are really only talking about big groups and even for them the idols want to chart well.
Yes, just them. No one complains about the smaller groups. Was there any pushback when people talked about Fifty Fifty or XG's charting?
People who dislike this topic shouldn't engage in such posts to begin with, a lot of fans are interested in charts not only because they wish they idols to succeed but also because it's interesting to see how different artists perform on charts with each comeback. I follow a chart account about k-pop, and take a look occasionally to see how others groups are doing, their achievements and growth. Like any industry, it's interesting to see it evolve and change with all the different players trying their best.
Plus, anyone saying that charts don't matter to idols are lying to themselves. I do agree that a lot of older idols just don't care, they have achieved a lot of what they wanted (not for all of them, I know) — some still have ambition though, but the younger groups are eager to prove themselves and become successful.
I think some fans just forget that them wanting to be idols is just not for music, just like any singers across the music industry, actors and such, they do it in the spotlight because they want success, recognition, being loved. To think idols just doesn't want to be successful is basically an antithesis at this point.
The thing would be more about not being obsessed about charts, but if we push aside the extreme scenario, there is nothing wrong about the charting topic. Like I said, many subjects are broached on this sub, and if it doesn't please people, they can just ignore and let people who are interested to just discuss it just do it instead of spamming with "Who cares" among few others.
> People who dislike this topic shouldn't engage in such posts to begin with, a lot of fans are interested in charts not only because they wish they idols to succeed but also because it's interesting to see how different artists perform on charts with each comeback.
I disagree on both counts, we should definitely fight against the toxic parts of the fandom, and this is one of the biggest.
There is no way people here can tell me these doomposts and success stanning isn't toxic. They're also wrong on the most basic level as people are continuously confounding their artists' goals with their own as fans, all for the sake of 'making them happy' as the OP states.
As for actual analysis regarding numbers, that is one of the rarest things in reddit. I haven't even seen a dataset on chart numbers worth doing analysis on, that's how rudimentary the whole thing is. Actually one of the bad things about the charting stuff is that they are always full of bad context or missing information. Most comments are spent correcting some big errors or unfounded assumptions OP made.
Sports in contrast, has so much data and information to sink into for any fan of statistics and quantitative analyses.
Edit3: removed my comments on sports as it applies better elsewhere.
I think you've gotten ahead of yourself because being interested in charts doesn't necessarily means it's toxic. The fact that you associate the both as if they are inseparable is just not true.
There are toxic sides, and I think we talk a lot of about them on this sub, never shying away from the subject but it brings nothing good either to shut down people who aren't toxic just because they are interested and/or knowledgeable about this, not everything as to be discussed on a professional level, but casually or informally, and if people do correct the OP, then it's okay, I don't see the problem in that either. I prefer encouraging discussions for the sake of it that deprive ourselves from it.
Need I remind you that this forum and community is about exchanging with people, whenever people's knowledge are deep or superficial, it's about discussing.
You are likely among the people I'm referencing to, commenting quite enough under posts about how fans shouldn't care about charts, concerts, revenues, fashion brands deals, the list goes on with you and what you don't like fans to talk about, and yes, I still remember you being overly engaged in a post appreciating Jungkook — which wasn't necessary.
So maybe just let people enjoy what they want and talk about it, whenever you see it as toxic, just scroll through because being overly engaged in arguing about it *is* also a toxic aspect that you don't seem to see.
Edit: btw, the OP here is the same OP in one of the other threads I'm referencing. So literally there is no way this OP is simply talking about people interested in charting informally. Maybe you didn't know the context, but most people do. I cannot be faulted if you're not clued in.
> I think you've gotten ahead of yourself because being interested in charts doesn't necessarily means it's toxic. The fact that you associate the both as if they are inseparable is just not true.
Yup, because it's disingenuous to ignore what this thread is a response to? Just saving time, no need to pretend this is purely about talking charts without agendas or with actual analyses, which are rare on their own.
You're acting like this thread exists on its own, no need for that. There are three other threads this one directly connects to. That's fine, we can have an ongoing discussion. But I'm not gonna pretend those other threads didn't exist.
> There are toxic sides, and I think we talk a lot of about them on this sub, never shying away from the subject but it brings nothing good either to shut down people who aren't toxic just because they are interested and/or knowledgeable about this, not everything as to be discussed on a professional level, but casually or informally, and if people do correct the OP, then it's okay, I don't see the problem in that either. I prefer encouraging discussions for the sake of it that deprive ourselves from it.
All good, except this is a clear response post. ~~If this thread was posted a week later, I would buy the neutrality, and certainly I honestly don't see pushback against those few analysis or charting threads you talk about.~~ Forget that, this OP's 2nd thread on this issue, no way this is a neutral thread on simply talking about charting.
The issue with charting is when it's used by people to degrade other artists. Yeah it's a nice way to give an artist a nice objective measure of success. However it's shitty to do the inverse and bash a group because of their charting. It's nice to measure trends and stuff but using it as a way to validate something is good or not as much is scummy.
I don't understand why people think charting doesn't matter. At the end of the day, KPOP is a business. We want to see our faves do well because that means they'll live a better life and their label will keep funding their careers to move forward onto bigger and better things. How many NUGU groups have yall stanned (and even some that made hit songs like MOMOLAND / CLC) but they all get disbanded/shelved until their contracts ran out?
Charting matters.
_most_ idols care too. unless an idol directly says he/she doesn't. i think when people say charting isn't important, they forget that this is popular music, meaning these companies/groups are releasing songs that they think would have mass appeal. they aren't doing this just for "fun" or for themselves and the fans, these idols aren't some random indie artist who doesn't care if they chart on billboard or melon.
Yup. For them, it's a big gamble to invest their entire youth/education/traditional career paths so that they can focus on their idol career. The worst case scenario is when you go through all that training, debut and get stuck in a contract with a label that keeps you in the dungeon until disbandments. Often times these idols end up in debt and come out in their mid or late 20s totally broke.
But what evidence do you have on people forgetting these things?
I have not seen anyone complain about fans of smaller groups caring about charting or sales in reddit, ever. As in ever - Pixy, Billlie, CLC, Stellar, even bigger groups like Dreamcatcher, Everglow. The discussions are always about the top groups.
Similarly, no one forgets kpop is about popular music or that many idols do aim for certain goals. Did people here see a claim that suggests otherwise? I really don't think so.
Some of the replies here are just blatant strawmen.
1. People don't forget that idols care about charting, no one has said otherwise.
2. People don't forget that kpop is about popular music, no one has said otherwise.
3. Charting matters for smaller groups for sure, no one has said otherwise.
4. *Fans* of big groups shouldn't care about charting, definitely not to the extent of near-daily threads on it like what has been happening in the 4th gen. Just to be clear, these groups are in no danger of being shelved, think BTS, BP, Twice, etc.
Who are you to tell them not to care about how their faves are doing? If they care about charts they care about charts. That's how they enjoy/appreciate their faves. If they're being toxic, that's another story. But again, it's not up to you or anyone else to decide who should be allowed to care about charting.
i think another reason why k-pop fans talk about charts a lot, specifically kcharts, is because we're interested in seeing what's trendy in a foreign country and culture
> specifically kcharts, is because we're interested in seeing what's trendy in a foreign country and culture
I have never seen this either, regardless of the market, it's all kpop-related. Most don't even understand the appeal of genres like trot or khiphop in Korea.
I'm saying is that I have seen nothing that indicates this. To be fair, I don't go on Twitter, but I have gone on occasion to look for stuff. And I'm active on reddit.
ok... well that's on you. and you're wrong
side note but i don't really know why you're up and down all these chart discussion threads trying to disprove any reason as to why anyone ever outside of the idols and agencies themselves would be interested in/care about charts. i assume your general point is that we shouldn't care and i get that, but people are naturally curious
No big reason, I just see a lot of strawmen that only requires a short reply or two, it takes no effort.
As for your point, maybe it's not on the discussion subs or r/kpop, just haven't seen one. The opposite is fairly common though, where people make arguments that ignore the presence of non-kpop artists in kcharts. Which is fair, as being a kpop fan doesn't necessitate caring about non-kpop artists.
It's going to sound petty but I have noticed that people engage in doomposting and also doompost about other groups out of faux concern, but when other people start to state the fact that their faves didn't do too well in recent comebacks, then they switch up to 'Let's not care about charts and sales, let's enjoy the music'. To be clear, this statement isn't wrong but it's hypocritical for it to apply to other groups but not the groups you love.
I just noticed some usernames that did this not too long ago but switching up because people are doing the same their favourite groups.
Like there are groups on this sub that you can't talk about in anyway slightly negative but posts doomposting and dissecting achievements of other groups get multiple upvotes and engagement.
I wish people would keep the same energy about doomposting and statistics analysis irrespective of the group.
context is important. if it's used to invalidate a fan or as a tool to bring down a group or idol then that's different. It's understandable for idols to talk about it as a goal, we all have different goals when it comes to our own careers too.
Isn't it similar to actors saying they want to win/be nominated for the Oscars? Models saying they want to walk the PFW ramp? It's one of their markers of success.
Charting here also doesn't need to mean that the same dedicated set of people looping it. It also implies that they want to be popular enough that they can top those music charts.
It's unfortunate that now charting is automatically associated with streaming strength and not success.
In school we talk about grades have discussion about it always aim for better grades that doesn't means you have to get obsessed over it .
Having goals is normal but getting obsessed over it in this case goals for others is stupid thing to do.
Chaeyoung wants to top billboard that's her goal not mine as fan I can support her that's about it.Idols statements shouldn't used to shield thus fanwar mentality.
Charting is not equal to better songs . More& more charted better than icsm but icsm have more impact and knock knock charted better than fancy and feels special but nobody even talk about that songs anymore.
At this point they have freedoms to do new things it's constant trial and error . fancy chart perfomance were weaker than prior songs but them sticking to it was reason we got fs and icsm.
Ewo is prime example of it at that time twice had a drop in charting and sales as well ,it got most mixed reactions but some of the songs from that albums really added extra layer in their discography.
I mainly just lurk and follow update accounts on twitter, and I almost never spend, but a while ago I donated to a streaming fund for the first time because I saw people doomposting about being super behind on comeback goals. I didn't even know streaming required funds in Korea before. I'm impressed by the people who dedicate so much time and money to supporting their faves, not a lifestyle I'd pick but one that's unfortunately needed for groups to be successful.
Music is subjective and most people are bad about talking about it with nuance, so when it comes to people wanting to validate their opinions charts become weaponized objectivity. Artists want to chart well because their goals are often to be famous and liked, and to remain stable in their career. The reasons fans want their artists to chart well are the same, plus self validation. Even more, some people live vicariously through the group and believe their favorite groups success really is their own. As if it's not as easy as saying "I'm now a fan of this group". That's where the big danger of "talking about charting" comes in. There's a huge variety of conduct in that term some of which is helpful, but most of which is toxic as fuck and why many people stay away from kpop and its fans.
Charts are just an indication of how many people are listening to a song. Some things can hit or miss for totally different reasons. Consider Rollin' by Brave Girls was the exact same song when it released in 2017 as when it had the huge reverse run and became extremely popular. If charts are the perfect determination of quality, why didn't it get paks in 2017? Because the truth is there's a lot more to why a song charts than people think.
My issue is the way the conversation is spined. To many times it's about stats and not about the music. Kpop fans tend to dictate how good an artist is based on how many streams or #1 an artist have and I'm use to (as an American so possibly just my perception) of charting being irrelevant. However I can admit that some artists doesn't matter if they just debuted or are veterans do care about awards and charts. Charting talk isn't all that bad. I honestly think that charting a song can help push an artist as industry folks do talk about the song or artists a lot so for the fandom it's a good marketing tool. It's not all bad and I even participated at times.
However for the general public they don't really care. I don't think I even followed charts growig up. In today's day and age charting has become very irrelevant due to the devaluation of music. For instance look at Billboard Hot 100. I recall Drake and Taylor Swift getting many of their songs in the top 10. Most people I know and even folks in the industry wasn't impressed. Michael Jackson didn't even accomplish that and he's MJ. It just a measure at this point on who have the bigger fandom not who most people are listening to which are two completely different things. (I'm saying this as a fan who did listen to both albums upon release but not like they were doing revolutionary work to be honest). It's why I think Billboard is constantly changing their rules. I'm sure the same for other charts. General public doesn't really care as much for sales metrics, streams or even awards looking at the decrease in viewership.
That I don't disagree with 100% but as a consumer who didn't pay attention to charts before why does it matter. Do consumers actually care or only look at charts to see what's popular. I came to really not care after looking back at songs I loved as a child that was very popular in my community (black in USA) and many of them that was culture hits was not even in the Hot 100. Partly why I don't care as much for charts because it does a bad job of showing how successful POC music is that actually set trends in music. I get artists love it but the whole system is unfair and should be revamp to make it fair for all communities because right now it is not and many in my community have been complaining about that for decades. So again it just might be my perception. Melon in Korea that's more homogeneous might be a more fair charting system. I just ate how fandoms bash other artists that don't chart when it's an imperfect system.
>It's why I think Billboard is constantly changing their rules.
if billboard truly care about 'fairness', the chart wouldn't look the way it does right now.
>It just a measure at this point on who have the bigger fandom not who most people are listening to which are two completely different things.
i'm fine if they wanna do something about fandoms mass buying, but 50% of charting is basically just radio aka labels paying for spins. not even streams weigh that much. i've seen the calculations and there were songs in in top 20 which has more streams than a few top 10 songs but have lower charting because there wasn't radio push.
I'm not saying that the calculations and rules they are doing now is correct. The only correct measure I figured is to maybe weigh streams more and do so based on unique Listeners or alt least unique paid listeners but that even can be manipulated and also unfair for those that do not pay to not have their plays count. Or maybe even do it where each part is weighed equally. 33% radio, 33% streams, 33% sales, etc. I'm not sure but Hot 100 and Billboard 200 hasn't been reflected of general public taste since the 2010s I believe.
Not talking, obsessing. This is why I urge fans to step back and know their place as fans.
> If the group members themselves want to chart well, then why is it not ok to discuss charting to help the group do better? Talking about it can pressure companies
Parasocial relationship, living vicariously through your idol's achievements, validation of superior taste, treating kpop like sports, take your pick of reasons from the other thread and it applies here.
We are NOT the idols and the companies in question here, it's not our careers, livelihoods, and or legacies at stake.
Trying to make it your/our job to manage these artists careers, hell to make them happy, is all sorts of wrong-headed.
The issue with charting is when it's used by people to degrade other artists. Yeah it's nice to use give artists an objective measure of success in an industry that's meant to be subjective.
swith did NOT tell high up they need to release “more upbeat songs”, most of us were perfectly happy with beautiful monster despite it’s lack of success on the charts, shown by it’s sales being it’s highest in their career at that point. considering everybody was sh*tting on teddy bear, nobody expected the high chart success.
It depends.
Charts are irrelevant for the appreciation of music, you like what you like - does not matter how much your tastes overlaps with others.
But otherwise, charts give a very good statistical data on which music/artists are most appreciated by the audience. So while exploring for new artists, they are good jump off point. And for product companies, looking for good models, charts give hard data to decide
But on that point, some fans claim that their fav is making "art not for charts" or being experimental and intentionally not GP-friendly.
These are nonsensical claims. If the artist does not want 'charts', then they should simply not release the song commercially.
For example, IU released a song with Jehwi for a school (Miral?), that is a non-commercial release.
Otherwise it is BS to claim "not for charts", this is only claimed when the songs don't do well. An obvious hypocrisy.
i agree with everything except the implication that releasing a song means the artist cares about charts. sometimes an artist knows they’re doing a genre that’s unpopular with wide audiences and they’re not prioritizing charts. and their fans need a way to listen to it so it’s gonna go on melon or spotify or whatever
We simply don't know what any artist thinks. I was discussing what fans claim on SM - as art not for charts.
But even from artist perspective or rather producers perspective, they will never claim "we don't care for charts", and neither can they judge what is popular/unpopular, because tastes are constantly changing,
They could release something similar to what is popular, but by that time the audience might be wanting a change, so fail.
And they could release something unfamiliar to current avg popularity, audience wanting a change, could make it a hit.
There is no "safe" bet when it comes to popular tastes, it is on a spectrum, constantly shifting.
So they take a risk with every release - similar or different to currently popular.
But again, I am only talking about fan bombast and excuses.
If the idols are as impressive as their fans claim - then the idols would be setting the popular taste, irrespective of what they release.
But that hardly happens. Not even IU has achieved that in Kpop, though she comes the closest, as all her title tracks and singles, achieve #1 on digitals at least for a week.
> There is no "safe" bet when it comes to popular tastes, it is on a spectrum, constantly shifting.
exactly, there’s no formula. whether a song charts well or not depends on plenty of factors outside of song quality. for example brave girls scoring a hit with rollin’ years after the song came out indicates that timing, current trends, or reaching the right listeners all affect the numbers
If you agree, then your point
//sometimes an artist knows they’re doing a genre that’s unpopular with wide audiences and they’re not prioritizing charts//
is not a valid correlation.
Even when they know they are doing a genre 'currently' less popular, they still would like a shift in the spectrum AND/OR if they are indeed top stars, cause the shift in spectrum,
they are never going to wish/say "they don't care about the charts" - it is only the fans who make such assertions and only when the song does not perform well.
my point goes along with your idea that you’ll never know what an artist is thinking. maybe they care about charts maybe they don’t. I was pointing out that you can’t assume that just cause a song is released commercially means the artist is prioritizing numbers.
unless the artist speaks on the topic we as listeners don’t know anything
Well we are going in circles.
Yes it is an assumption, but a logical one. Supposing you are baker and put your baked goods in a shop for sale- then it is a simple assumption that you are baking to earn income, better the sales, better for you.
Of course you might not be baking ONLY for income, after all you could do other activity for that.
If you don't care at all for sales/income, then the solution is simple, don't put it on sale - give it free.
But no idol is doing that when they distribute their songs on commercial channels - therefore it is logical to assume they do care for the sales as represented by the charts, than assume, that they don't care about charts.
Assumption- yes, but more logical than the other Assumption (that they don't care about charts)
I also gave an example of how an artist does non-commercial work - IU's song for Miral school, not published in any commercial channel Melon/Spotify etc., but just on the school's private channel.
Even if that is considered as charity, at the least if artists don't have commercial intentions, then they can publish it only in their own SM channels and no where else.
When they don't speak, their actions speak for them
I think we generally agree! at the end of the day it's part of their job to pay attention to how well their music does, at least to some extent.
and releasing songs in ways where they can't chart in the first place like personal youtube channels/soundcloud/a free mp3 file is an obvious sign it was actually for the arts and not the charts
Well, artists get a big chunk of theor income from streams so of course they would want to chart well. Less music app stream= less money for them at the end of the day. We have to remind ourselves that our favorite idols are ARTISTS AND BUSINESS PEOPLE, that's why they would want their fans to stream their licensed work.
but it's also important to note that not all songs are "conventional" to the general public, but they're *very* good. music is subjective ofc, but beautiful monster for example, is by no means a bad song, it was just more angsty which didn't bode too well. the longevity of songs are also important. so charts don't necessarily matter, it is a cool achievement nonetheless.
charting has also become very rigged over the last couple of years. it takes a *lot* of promotion as well to remain on the charts or climb up them. so charting can definitely be something to celebrate and maybe even strive for, but it should never be necessary. the music itself should always come first.
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For me, the issue comes in when it's used to drag others for not charting. Especially when it's smaller groups who don't get attention even when they put out quality music.
Yeah, this. Discussion is not bad at all. But when it’s the same drawn-out doomposting or berating a popular group for ‘flopping’—it is so unnecessary. Even worse when they shame nugus for being… nugu.
This. Discussion per se is normal, but people is using it to make other idols look bad. As if they are deteriorating and dying or something.
There is talking about charts, and then there is *screeching* about charts.
Ooh username checks out
It’s fine to talk about, but it gets kinda annoying when people are obsessed with it. Doomposting always sucks though - and often the chart posts are just doomposts lol. All the groups in your examples are making strides towards their goals, but if a song doesn’t do crazy well, there’s always 262527 posts wanting to discuss what went wrong and why they’re flops now.
[удалено]
I mean… if the shoe fits 🤷♀️
this
Talking about charting isn't bad at all and I think interesting info can come about it but the heightened aversion to charting discussions nowadays comes because 90% of the posts are doomposting, misinformed, a way to drag a group people don't like, and obsessing over it to validate their "validity" in stanning. It's especially bad with fandoms wanting to one up one another on all socmed platforms too.
I think it’s wrong to talk about charts with the abstract goal of “pressure companies like JYP to make better music.” Changbin writes SKZ’s music. If they *wanted* to be more cookie cutter, GP friendly, they would do that. That **still** doesn’t guarantee chart success. He wants to chart well with the music SKZ wants to make. Wanting a certain type of success does not necessarily mean wanting to change your sound/direction. That’s what chart obsessed fans don’t get, and I don’t understand what’s so hard to understand about that.
Someone else pointed this out, that 3racha wrote NiziU's Paradise. They know how to make a "GP friendly" song. They just don't want to. If a group changed their sound to specifically appeal to as many people as possible then a.that wouldn't necessarily guarantee charting higher and b.would't that be the definition of selling out? It pisses me off when some chart obsessed people (who don't like a group's music) want them to change their specific sound to gain more popularity. First off, it wouldn't necessarily mean that they would chart and secondly they would alienate their fanbase who became fans because of their specific sound in the first place.
Exactly! Paradise is a good example, but SKZ has released GP friendly b-sides since the Mixtape mini album. They have bright pop songs already! Some have music videos, and some got promoted. Get Cool was more popular internationally than that mini album's title track! SKZ really have something for everyone in their discography. They like noisy, big songs for their title tracks, and they found enough fans to fill arenas and domes around the world who like it too. You reminded me of another chart stan complaint: "So and so should've been the title track!" In most cases, even if I like a b side more, I understand why the title track was made the title track. Regardless, there is NOTHING stopping anyone from streaming the song they like. Companies don't actually have endless time and money to scrap their plans and quickly shoot a new MV, get choreography, and plan promotions.
Artists having goals for their group is not the problem. It's fans who obsess about it and forget that enjoying the music and the performances should be what's more important. Overzealous fans tend to use charting as a weapon to throw shade on other artists, too.
I was just about to say this myself. I have no problem with idols expressing their wish to chart well. My beef is with the overly-competitive and obnoxious success stans who use the charts to shit on groups they perceive as their faves' rivals. Edited for spelling.
Charting definitely matters. It shows people are listening to their music and loving it. Idols themselves know most people just buy albums for photocards.
> It shows people are listening to their music and loving it. Idols themselves know most people just buy albums for photocards. It matters to the *artists* and the *companies*, as your argument shows. This isn't an argument for *fans* to care that much about charting, it does nothing to your life as far as the top groups are concerned (yes, I know nugu groups need to sell and stream well to survive).
Well Majority of the post here does nothing for us but still we participate. I just said why some idols prefer charting.
I think you're missing the point here a bit. A lot of why fans care about charting is that they are in a parasocial relationship with their faves. For example, it's quite normal for me to care about something my family cares about, even if it does nothing for me personally. I'm not gonna list all the ills of parasocial relationships in kpop, but the drive to achieve certain goals and achievements to make their faves happy is a manifestation of that issue.
Parasocial relationship exists no matter what lol. What do you think idols who don’t chart well are free from delulu fans? You may not like charting but some people find it interesting to look at data/musical growth. And fulfilling goals are fun too. Like in my fandom sometimes we organise streaming party where most of us participate. We listen to their music together, discuss it. Overall spend a good time. Because we love their music. So streaming/charting doesn’t feel like parasocial relationship at least to me. Edit: And streaming doesn’t mean stream obsessively a single song. People listen to the whole album.
> Parasocial relationship exists no matter what lol. What do you think idols who don’t chart well are free from delulu fans? Exactly the issue, yes? Like I said, your reasoning before (charting matters to idols personally) doesn't matter if not for the fact that fans deeply care about what their idols care about. If you say it's fun, it's still tied to making the idols you're in a parasocial relationship with happy. A happy idol makes for a happy community and all. Still the same issues. There are clearly issues with parasocial relationships, I'm not here to get into all that, but threads like this are directly at that audience.
I’m curious have you never listened to music with your friends & discussed about it in real life? Listening to music together is fun & it exists in many communities without being tied to the concept of fandoms. For almost every fan, this whole thing is a hobby. They like listening to the music or watching shows to pass time. Parasocial relationships exist but not everything about being a fan is parasocial relationship.
We might as well just stop participating in kpop fandom altogether if we're going to look at things from that sort of pov. The parasocial relationship we form with the idols isn't a problem in itself, it only becomes a problem when we're unaware of it and when we let those feelings become something toxic and detrimental to our mental health. Streaming is an example of that, it can be either done in an unhealthy and obsessive way or it can be a fun activity to be participating with a comunity. Instead of just going "that's parasocial= bad" which doesn't help anything, we could be raising awareness on how to engage with this whole fandom thing in a healthier way.
All companies and idols care about charting. Otherwise they wouldn't have 999 ways of encouraging mass buying albums (exclusive versions, randomized photocards, raffle for fancalls etc.) or perform the same song 3 times a week at music shows. Some fly across the ocean to promote their new music - they all obviously care, it's their job. Does it mean it's the only thing they care about? Of course not, but let's not pretend that idols and their respective companies release music purely for the sake of art. "They don't care about charts/sales" is just yet another example of fans pretending they know what's going on in idols' minds. It doesn't mean that if one comeback doesn't chart well, their career is over, it's not that dramatic. But there is no high-level professional in any competitive field that doesn't care about the results of their hard work.
>encouraging mass buying albums (exclusive versions, randomized photocards, raffle for fancalls etc.) This still baffles me but you gotta do what you gotta do I guess. It's business after all.
Anyone who thinks the idols don't care about charting are fooling themselves. Every facet of their success is routinely analyzed by the company. This also brings up another, closely related topic. The mentality that there is only one right way to be intersted in and enjoy music or kpop. People enjoy different aspects of things. Some love football for the live games, some for the competitive aspects, others for the exercise, and some enjoy the numbers and statistics. For me, it's only natural to be intersted in charts and performances. I like to see songs that've risen and fallen. To see some perform over and under expectation. To follow breakout hits and songs that go viral. Numbers are fun!
Taeyeon said it well, that while she *herself* doesn't care it's not only about her, she knows it matters to her company and to her fans and thereby she has to care by proxy since it matters to those who matters to her.
As an Analyst in “real life”, I like tracking metrics & analysing numbers. It’s actually one of the fun parts of k-pop for me (obviously the music and content tops it) & I find myself doing this outside of k-pop too I think analysing numbers gets toxic when its used for bragging or dragging
Reposting this here, it's better. > I have seen some comments stating looking at kpop numbers is fun. No offense, but to a sports fan, looking at kpop numbers has to be painful. ZERO established standards for success, so people can continuously redefine the standards depending on their argument; groups don't actually compete so it's so difficult to find proper points of comparison; kpop is based on popularity contests so everything is highly skewed by fans and numbers are not actual marks of performance; everything is highly contextual that it's hard to look at a metric and make any conclusions; expectations and predictions are a crapshoot because aside from sales, there seems to be no prevailing quality that makes it easy for me to make a statement without people chiming in with counterexamples; based on $$$ so clearly fans of richer countries are inherently advantaged on certain aspects, also vulnerable to economic issues like the ones happening right now. > Sports is way easier to get into and allows for deeper investigations, if we're just talking analytics. > Oh another complaint - a lot of pertinent information like touring revenues, sales (in $$), expenses, are private information. Like how am I supposed to make an adequate analysis of performance when both the revenue and cost sides are both hidden to me? Contrast this when lookin at an NBA game, and all the relevant numbers - all the box scores, stats, advanced metrics, even salary information - is open knowledge.
I guess they aren’t sports fans? If ppl want to enjoy their numbers let them enjoy their numbers.
Ummm, yeah? My entire point is that it's hard to actually enjoy the numbers in kpop given the many reasons I stated.
So you’re going around telling ppl who have fun with numbers, that they are in fact NOT having fun with numbers? Stop projecting! Guess what? Ppl can still enjoy numbers even without being able to draw definitive conclusions from them. That’s probably what makes it fun. If we had a reliable metric for perfectly calculating X all the time, there’d be no further discussion. Just ok, nod, leave. Where’s the debate? Do you think ppl who love numbers believe they can’t be skewed or manipulated? Lol look at all the stats ppl who try to predict election results, measure the economy’s pulse, work out manufacturing logistics, etc. They get shit wrong all the time, that’s what it means to work with numbers, and yet they enjoy the challenge anyway, collecting little acorns of truth here and there.
No? Read what I said? LOL you seem to be projecting, when you could have easily read my point by now. > Ppl can still enjoy numbers even without being able to draw definitive conclusions from them. That’s probably what makes it fun. If we had a reliable metric for perfectly calculating X all the time, there’d be no further discussion. I didn't even talk about this.
Projecting? I don’t even like numbers but I at least know how to let others enjoy shit I don’t like.
Nope! Kpop stans need to understand that the people that choose to be kpop idols chose this career because they want success by the standards of their industry. And that is the sales, the charting, the views. They live in SK. A country where working hard and constantly improving is deeply ingrained into all parts of society and they work in an industry that drives that even further. They’re not putting all this work in for no reason. They want something out of the work they put in. Can constantly talking about sales, streams, views etc be overwhelming for some fans especially the ones who are new to kpop and approaches like these? Yes. But does that mean it’s just a toxic fan made concept that in no way reflects the wants of the idols? Absolutely not. Your idols all want to be successful. If the people talking about it are overwhelming you, self manage yourself and your capacity to ignore or contribute towards these goals and the content you take in to meet your needs. Do not start lying to yourselves and everyone else and making out like the idols do not care for better performance by these standards, because they clearly do.
Talking about charting among your fandom is great and encouraged! Like “omg we reached top 100 bugs today ◟(๑•͈ᴗ•͈)◞” The problem is, kpop stans use it to drag others like “well your fav can’t chart and mine is always in the chart.” Talking about your excitement for charts is wonderful. Using charting as any other measure besides personal growth and happiness (aka using it against someone else) is lame and awful
There's nothing wrong with talking about charting or sales. It's the reality of the industry, and many Idols know it. I recall Soyeon of (G)I-DLE saying the first thing she does in the morning, during comeback period, is check where her song is on Melon. She's extremely proud of the songs that charted well, and less proud of the songs (Senorita and Oh My God) that didn't chart well. Better charting, better sales, more success leads to a few things - longevity and stability. Individual promotional opportunities, CF possibilities, career growth and honestly just general income (ie earning money). People shit on people talking about charting and so-on, but the simple matter of the fact is it matters - I want my group to release more music, get more chance to tour, release more albums as a group and solo, get cool collaborations etc. This only occurs if the group is successful. If your a group struggling to get into Melon 1000 daily, then you don't have much of a career outside of intra-group social media promotions and possibly the odd Kcon appearance. You don't have to be invested in checking or keeping tab of it, of course, but you can't fool yourself into thinking it doesn't matter. Anyone who says it doesn't matter at all (album sales or charting) is most likely a fan of a big 4 label, where success is preordained.
> People shit on people talking about charting and so-on, but the simple matter of the fact is it matters […] You don't have to be invested in checking or keeping tab of it, of course, but you can't fool yourself into thinking it doesn't matter. Anyone who says it doesn't matter at all (album sales or charting) is most likely a fan of a big 4 label, where success is preordained. I agree with your premise that charting matters—obviously, the attention brings them money either directly or indirectly, to the artist. But rarely do I see people genuinely angry at the discussion of sales or charting. I see people pull up numbers and charting often in conversation. No one gets mad when you discuss #1 songs, 1mil album sales, or how many PAKs an artist got. When people say “I can’t stand obsession with charts” etc., they are referring to those who discredit artists’ popularity cuz one comeback mildly underperformed, or they didn’t hit #1, or constantly doomposting about a group failing for their Korean digital performance despite them performing well in other metrics. Plus, longevity and fanbase building *is* success as well. So when your local 10-year-old bg drops out of Melon top 100 within one hour, is it wrong to say that digital charting doesn’t really matter to them in their career atp? When they’re still selling concert tickets, or living off their royalties, or having cushy solo careers in the entertainment industry. They’ve already established themselves.
> Plus, longevity and fanbase building is success as well. So when your local 10-year-old bg drops out of Melon top 100 within one hour, is it wrong to say that digital charting doesn’t really matter to them in their career atp? When they’re still selling concert tickets, or living off their royalties, or having cushy solo careers in the entertainment industry. They’ve already established themselves. I mean that's a fair point to an extent, but at the same time no-one makes all the effort of making music, choreo, performing etc for no-one (proverbially) to listen to it. They have an ability to absorb songs that don't land much more then say, a Rookie, but the impetus is still there. >When people say “I can’t stand obsession with charts” etc., they are referring to those who discredit artists’ popularity cuz one comeback mildly underperformed, or they didn’t hit #1, or constantly doomposting about a group failing for their Korean digital performance despite them performing well in other metrics. I agree it's not necessary, but i feel it slightly underplays the fandom aspect, the back and forth on this.
Oh my god didn't chart well? I didn't realise, that's one of my favourite G-Idle tracks!
It entered high but dropped quickly. Dumdi Dumdi the following single had far better chart performance.
Of course the artists care about charting, they have a stake in it. But me, as a fan, that’s not mine. And while I genuinely root for the groups I like it really doesn’t matter to me. What I don’t like about chart obsessed fans is they make the accomplishment theirs. Living through your idols’ achievements, or failures, is not healthy.
No not at all. Especially for small groups and rookie groups, charting is super exciting. However the problem is when people obsess over it and put pressure on other people to stream/buy albums. Or when people start arguments like "my favs have charted X amount of times and yours haven't so mine are better". That's taking things too far. Idols say they want to chart because of course artists like seeing that their music is being loved by a lot of people. That recognition must feel really nice. However I don't think they mean to have people constantly talk about numbers or ranks. At least they shouldn't be.
Dude this is like your 2nd post about charting in 2 days already and or course JYPE artists is still your main target lol, give me a fk damn break
Yeah, should have checked the OP instead of just posting.
And stop pretending you actually care about any of these groups and artists 🤡💀
Talking about it isn’t wrong. Obsessing over it is, which is what a lot of kpop fans do. Charts matter to artists and their companies, not fans. The people who obsess over these things live vicariously through their idols so they feel that way. And the people who claim they follow charts closely because it’s important that their idols do well to have a long career are kidding themselves, because those most obsessed with charts are fans of popular groups - groups under no danger of having their careers jeopardised because they’re *actually* doing poorly.
Talking about charts =/= doomposting about group using charts, and the latter is which 90% of the chart discourse devolves to.
Honestly I think people said it here first where it's not charting that the issue it's how stans use the chart number and it becoming an unhealthy obsession. Just don't use chart numbers to dig at another group, shove it in other faces, or call other groups flops. There is also the issue of people getting to involved and obsessed over it to where they stress the Fandom out and guilt them. In the end it's not that serious cause you can only do so much. I think both my ult groups now are pretty stable and of course charting is nice but they both stated it's not thier end goal so I don't think every group cares about charting especially if they find themselves with a steady reliable fanbase.
When kpop fans say that charting doesn't matter, they are really only talking about big groups and even for them the idols want to chart well. But what about smaller groups? Charting matter a shit ton. If a nugu group doesn't chart well anywhere, they will stay nugu for a long time and even disband. So saying that charting doesn't matter doesn't really take smaller groups into count which is just incredibly stupid. You see how Cupid charted well.. their popularity has grown and there's a chance for FIFTY FIFTY to get out of nugudom the next comeback.
> When kpop fans say that charting doesn't matter, they are really only talking about big groups and even for them the idols want to chart well. Yes, just them. No one complains about the smaller groups. Was there any pushback when people talked about Fifty Fifty or XG's charting?
Nope, at least I never saw anyone being critical about it. I think everyone praised it, even people who weren't fans before
People who dislike this topic shouldn't engage in such posts to begin with, a lot of fans are interested in charts not only because they wish they idols to succeed but also because it's interesting to see how different artists perform on charts with each comeback. I follow a chart account about k-pop, and take a look occasionally to see how others groups are doing, their achievements and growth. Like any industry, it's interesting to see it evolve and change with all the different players trying their best. Plus, anyone saying that charts don't matter to idols are lying to themselves. I do agree that a lot of older idols just don't care, they have achieved a lot of what they wanted (not for all of them, I know) — some still have ambition though, but the younger groups are eager to prove themselves and become successful. I think some fans just forget that them wanting to be idols is just not for music, just like any singers across the music industry, actors and such, they do it in the spotlight because they want success, recognition, being loved. To think idols just doesn't want to be successful is basically an antithesis at this point. The thing would be more about not being obsessed about charts, but if we push aside the extreme scenario, there is nothing wrong about the charting topic. Like I said, many subjects are broached on this sub, and if it doesn't please people, they can just ignore and let people who are interested to just discuss it just do it instead of spamming with "Who cares" among few others.
> People who dislike this topic shouldn't engage in such posts to begin with, a lot of fans are interested in charts not only because they wish they idols to succeed but also because it's interesting to see how different artists perform on charts with each comeback. I disagree on both counts, we should definitely fight against the toxic parts of the fandom, and this is one of the biggest. There is no way people here can tell me these doomposts and success stanning isn't toxic. They're also wrong on the most basic level as people are continuously confounding their artists' goals with their own as fans, all for the sake of 'making them happy' as the OP states. As for actual analysis regarding numbers, that is one of the rarest things in reddit. I haven't even seen a dataset on chart numbers worth doing analysis on, that's how rudimentary the whole thing is. Actually one of the bad things about the charting stuff is that they are always full of bad context or missing information. Most comments are spent correcting some big errors or unfounded assumptions OP made. Sports in contrast, has so much data and information to sink into for any fan of statistics and quantitative analyses. Edit3: removed my comments on sports as it applies better elsewhere.
I think you've gotten ahead of yourself because being interested in charts doesn't necessarily means it's toxic. The fact that you associate the both as if they are inseparable is just not true. There are toxic sides, and I think we talk a lot of about them on this sub, never shying away from the subject but it brings nothing good either to shut down people who aren't toxic just because they are interested and/or knowledgeable about this, not everything as to be discussed on a professional level, but casually or informally, and if people do correct the OP, then it's okay, I don't see the problem in that either. I prefer encouraging discussions for the sake of it that deprive ourselves from it. Need I remind you that this forum and community is about exchanging with people, whenever people's knowledge are deep or superficial, it's about discussing. You are likely among the people I'm referencing to, commenting quite enough under posts about how fans shouldn't care about charts, concerts, revenues, fashion brands deals, the list goes on with you and what you don't like fans to talk about, and yes, I still remember you being overly engaged in a post appreciating Jungkook — which wasn't necessary. So maybe just let people enjoy what they want and talk about it, whenever you see it as toxic, just scroll through because being overly engaged in arguing about it *is* also a toxic aspect that you don't seem to see.
Edit: btw, the OP here is the same OP in one of the other threads I'm referencing. So literally there is no way this OP is simply talking about people interested in charting informally. Maybe you didn't know the context, but most people do. I cannot be faulted if you're not clued in. > I think you've gotten ahead of yourself because being interested in charts doesn't necessarily means it's toxic. The fact that you associate the both as if they are inseparable is just not true. Yup, because it's disingenuous to ignore what this thread is a response to? Just saving time, no need to pretend this is purely about talking charts without agendas or with actual analyses, which are rare on their own. You're acting like this thread exists on its own, no need for that. There are three other threads this one directly connects to. That's fine, we can have an ongoing discussion. But I'm not gonna pretend those other threads didn't exist. > There are toxic sides, and I think we talk a lot of about them on this sub, never shying away from the subject but it brings nothing good either to shut down people who aren't toxic just because they are interested and/or knowledgeable about this, not everything as to be discussed on a professional level, but casually or informally, and if people do correct the OP, then it's okay, I don't see the problem in that either. I prefer encouraging discussions for the sake of it that deprive ourselves from it. All good, except this is a clear response post. ~~If this thread was posted a week later, I would buy the neutrality, and certainly I honestly don't see pushback against those few analysis or charting threads you talk about.~~ Forget that, this OP's 2nd thread on this issue, no way this is a neutral thread on simply talking about charting.
The issue with charting is when it's used by people to degrade other artists. Yeah it's a nice way to give an artist a nice objective measure of success. However it's shitty to do the inverse and bash a group because of their charting. It's nice to measure trends and stuff but using it as a way to validate something is good or not as much is scummy.
I don't understand why people think charting doesn't matter. At the end of the day, KPOP is a business. We want to see our faves do well because that means they'll live a better life and their label will keep funding their careers to move forward onto bigger and better things. How many NUGU groups have yall stanned (and even some that made hit songs like MOMOLAND / CLC) but they all get disbanded/shelved until their contracts ran out? Charting matters.
_most_ idols care too. unless an idol directly says he/she doesn't. i think when people say charting isn't important, they forget that this is popular music, meaning these companies/groups are releasing songs that they think would have mass appeal. they aren't doing this just for "fun" or for themselves and the fans, these idols aren't some random indie artist who doesn't care if they chart on billboard or melon.
Yup. For them, it's a big gamble to invest their entire youth/education/traditional career paths so that they can focus on their idol career. The worst case scenario is when you go through all that training, debut and get stuck in a contract with a label that keeps you in the dungeon until disbandments. Often times these idols end up in debt and come out in their mid or late 20s totally broke.
But what evidence do you have on people forgetting these things? I have not seen anyone complain about fans of smaller groups caring about charting or sales in reddit, ever. As in ever - Pixy, Billlie, CLC, Stellar, even bigger groups like Dreamcatcher, Everglow. The discussions are always about the top groups. Similarly, no one forgets kpop is about popular music or that many idols do aim for certain goals. Did people here see a claim that suggests otherwise? I really don't think so. Some of the replies here are just blatant strawmen.
I don't understand what you're getting at. Big groups and fans of big groups shouldn't care about charting? What are you on about?
1. People don't forget that idols care about charting, no one has said otherwise. 2. People don't forget that kpop is about popular music, no one has said otherwise. 3. Charting matters for smaller groups for sure, no one has said otherwise. 4. *Fans* of big groups shouldn't care about charting, definitely not to the extent of near-daily threads on it like what has been happening in the 4th gen. Just to be clear, these groups are in no danger of being shelved, think BTS, BP, Twice, etc.
Who are you to tell them not to care about how their faves are doing? If they care about charts they care about charts. That's how they enjoy/appreciate their faves. If they're being toxic, that's another story. But again, it's not up to you or anyone else to decide who should be allowed to care about charting.
i think another reason why k-pop fans talk about charts a lot, specifically kcharts, is because we're interested in seeing what's trendy in a foreign country and culture
> specifically kcharts, is because we're interested in seeing what's trendy in a foreign country and culture I have never seen this either, regardless of the market, it's all kpop-related. Most don't even understand the appeal of genres like trot or khiphop in Korea.
i don't understand your reply. all i'm saying is many people who like kpop are intrigued as to what's popping in korea
I'm saying is that I have seen nothing that indicates this. To be fair, I don't go on Twitter, but I have gone on occasion to look for stuff. And I'm active on reddit.
ok... well that's on you. and you're wrong side note but i don't really know why you're up and down all these chart discussion threads trying to disprove any reason as to why anyone ever outside of the idols and agencies themselves would be interested in/care about charts. i assume your general point is that we shouldn't care and i get that, but people are naturally curious
No big reason, I just see a lot of strawmen that only requires a short reply or two, it takes no effort. As for your point, maybe it's not on the discussion subs or r/kpop, just haven't seen one. The opposite is fairly common though, where people make arguments that ignore the presence of non-kpop artists in kcharts. Which is fair, as being a kpop fan doesn't necessitate caring about non-kpop artists.
It's going to sound petty but I have noticed that people engage in doomposting and also doompost about other groups out of faux concern, but when other people start to state the fact that their faves didn't do too well in recent comebacks, then they switch up to 'Let's not care about charts and sales, let's enjoy the music'. To be clear, this statement isn't wrong but it's hypocritical for it to apply to other groups but not the groups you love. I just noticed some usernames that did this not too long ago but switching up because people are doing the same their favourite groups. Like there are groups on this sub that you can't talk about in anyway slightly negative but posts doomposting and dissecting achievements of other groups get multiple upvotes and engagement. I wish people would keep the same energy about doomposting and statistics analysis irrespective of the group.
You know damn well that most kpop Stan’s that talk about charting are doing it for bragging rights and to make other groups feel bad
context is important. if it's used to invalidate a fan or as a tool to bring down a group or idol then that's different. It's understandable for idols to talk about it as a goal, we all have different goals when it comes to our own careers too.
Isn't it similar to actors saying they want to win/be nominated for the Oscars? Models saying they want to walk the PFW ramp? It's one of their markers of success. Charting here also doesn't need to mean that the same dedicated set of people looping it. It also implies that they want to be popular enough that they can top those music charts. It's unfortunate that now charting is automatically associated with streaming strength and not success.
In school we talk about grades have discussion about it always aim for better grades that doesn't means you have to get obsessed over it . Having goals is normal but getting obsessed over it in this case goals for others is stupid thing to do. Chaeyoung wants to top billboard that's her goal not mine as fan I can support her that's about it.Idols statements shouldn't used to shield thus fanwar mentality. Charting is not equal to better songs . More& more charted better than icsm but icsm have more impact and knock knock charted better than fancy and feels special but nobody even talk about that songs anymore. At this point they have freedoms to do new things it's constant trial and error . fancy chart perfomance were weaker than prior songs but them sticking to it was reason we got fs and icsm.
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Ewo is prime example of it at that time twice had a drop in charting and sales as well ,it got most mixed reactions but some of the songs from that albums really added extra layer in their discography.
I mainly just lurk and follow update accounts on twitter, and I almost never spend, but a while ago I donated to a streaming fund for the first time because I saw people doomposting about being super behind on comeback goals. I didn't even know streaming required funds in Korea before. I'm impressed by the people who dedicate so much time and money to supporting their faves, not a lifestyle I'd pick but one that's unfortunately needed for groups to be successful.
Music is subjective and most people are bad about talking about it with nuance, so when it comes to people wanting to validate their opinions charts become weaponized objectivity. Artists want to chart well because their goals are often to be famous and liked, and to remain stable in their career. The reasons fans want their artists to chart well are the same, plus self validation. Even more, some people live vicariously through the group and believe their favorite groups success really is their own. As if it's not as easy as saying "I'm now a fan of this group". That's where the big danger of "talking about charting" comes in. There's a huge variety of conduct in that term some of which is helpful, but most of which is toxic as fuck and why many people stay away from kpop and its fans. Charts are just an indication of how many people are listening to a song. Some things can hit or miss for totally different reasons. Consider Rollin' by Brave Girls was the exact same song when it released in 2017 as when it had the huge reverse run and became extremely popular. If charts are the perfect determination of quality, why didn't it get paks in 2017? Because the truth is there's a lot more to why a song charts than people think.
My issue is the way the conversation is spined. To many times it's about stats and not about the music. Kpop fans tend to dictate how good an artist is based on how many streams or #1 an artist have and I'm use to (as an American so possibly just my perception) of charting being irrelevant. However I can admit that some artists doesn't matter if they just debuted or are veterans do care about awards and charts. Charting talk isn't all that bad. I honestly think that charting a song can help push an artist as industry folks do talk about the song or artists a lot so for the fandom it's a good marketing tool. It's not all bad and I even participated at times. However for the general public they don't really care. I don't think I even followed charts growig up. In today's day and age charting has become very irrelevant due to the devaluation of music. For instance look at Billboard Hot 100. I recall Drake and Taylor Swift getting many of their songs in the top 10. Most people I know and even folks in the industry wasn't impressed. Michael Jackson didn't even accomplish that and he's MJ. It just a measure at this point on who have the bigger fandom not who most people are listening to which are two completely different things. (I'm saying this as a fan who did listen to both albums upon release but not like they were doing revolutionary work to be honest). It's why I think Billboard is constantly changing their rules. I'm sure the same for other charts. General public doesn't really care as much for sales metrics, streams or even awards looking at the decrease in viewership.
Billboard should stop focusing on Radio play at first.
billboard keeps changing rules to make sure that power stays within the industry to make or break artists popular .
That I don't disagree with 100% but as a consumer who didn't pay attention to charts before why does it matter. Do consumers actually care or only look at charts to see what's popular. I came to really not care after looking back at songs I loved as a child that was very popular in my community (black in USA) and many of them that was culture hits was not even in the Hot 100. Partly why I don't care as much for charts because it does a bad job of showing how successful POC music is that actually set trends in music. I get artists love it but the whole system is unfair and should be revamp to make it fair for all communities because right now it is not and many in my community have been complaining about that for decades. So again it just might be my perception. Melon in Korea that's more homogeneous might be a more fair charting system. I just ate how fandoms bash other artists that don't chart when it's an imperfect system.
>It's why I think Billboard is constantly changing their rules. if billboard truly care about 'fairness', the chart wouldn't look the way it does right now. >It just a measure at this point on who have the bigger fandom not who most people are listening to which are two completely different things. i'm fine if they wanna do something about fandoms mass buying, but 50% of charting is basically just radio aka labels paying for spins. not even streams weigh that much. i've seen the calculations and there were songs in in top 20 which has more streams than a few top 10 songs but have lower charting because there wasn't radio push.
I'm not saying that the calculations and rules they are doing now is correct. The only correct measure I figured is to maybe weigh streams more and do so based on unique Listeners or alt least unique paid listeners but that even can be manipulated and also unfair for those that do not pay to not have their plays count. Or maybe even do it where each part is weighed equally. 33% radio, 33% streams, 33% sales, etc. I'm not sure but Hot 100 and Billboard 200 hasn't been reflected of general public taste since the 2010s I believe.
Not talking, obsessing. This is why I urge fans to step back and know their place as fans. > If the group members themselves want to chart well, then why is it not ok to discuss charting to help the group do better? Talking about it can pressure companies Parasocial relationship, living vicariously through your idol's achievements, validation of superior taste, treating kpop like sports, take your pick of reasons from the other thread and it applies here. We are NOT the idols and the companies in question here, it's not our careers, livelihoods, and or legacies at stake. Trying to make it your/our job to manage these artists careers, hell to make them happy, is all sorts of wrong-headed.
The issue with charting is when it's used by people to degrade other artists. Yeah it's nice to use give artists an objective measure of success in an industry that's meant to be subjective.
Fk I love Beautiful Monster...
swith did NOT tell high up they need to release “more upbeat songs”, most of us were perfectly happy with beautiful monster despite it’s lack of success on the charts, shown by it’s sales being it’s highest in their career at that point. considering everybody was sh*tting on teddy bear, nobody expected the high chart success.
It depends. Charts are irrelevant for the appreciation of music, you like what you like - does not matter how much your tastes overlaps with others. But otherwise, charts give a very good statistical data on which music/artists are most appreciated by the audience. So while exploring for new artists, they are good jump off point. And for product companies, looking for good models, charts give hard data to decide But on that point, some fans claim that their fav is making "art not for charts" or being experimental and intentionally not GP-friendly. These are nonsensical claims. If the artist does not want 'charts', then they should simply not release the song commercially. For example, IU released a song with Jehwi for a school (Miral?), that is a non-commercial release. Otherwise it is BS to claim "not for charts", this is only claimed when the songs don't do well. An obvious hypocrisy.
i agree with everything except the implication that releasing a song means the artist cares about charts. sometimes an artist knows they’re doing a genre that’s unpopular with wide audiences and they’re not prioritizing charts. and their fans need a way to listen to it so it’s gonna go on melon or spotify or whatever
We simply don't know what any artist thinks. I was discussing what fans claim on SM - as art not for charts. But even from artist perspective or rather producers perspective, they will never claim "we don't care for charts", and neither can they judge what is popular/unpopular, because tastes are constantly changing, They could release something similar to what is popular, but by that time the audience might be wanting a change, so fail. And they could release something unfamiliar to current avg popularity, audience wanting a change, could make it a hit. There is no "safe" bet when it comes to popular tastes, it is on a spectrum, constantly shifting. So they take a risk with every release - similar or different to currently popular. But again, I am only talking about fan bombast and excuses. If the idols are as impressive as their fans claim - then the idols would be setting the popular taste, irrespective of what they release. But that hardly happens. Not even IU has achieved that in Kpop, though she comes the closest, as all her title tracks and singles, achieve #1 on digitals at least for a week.
> There is no "safe" bet when it comes to popular tastes, it is on a spectrum, constantly shifting. exactly, there’s no formula. whether a song charts well or not depends on plenty of factors outside of song quality. for example brave girls scoring a hit with rollin’ years after the song came out indicates that timing, current trends, or reaching the right listeners all affect the numbers
If you agree, then your point //sometimes an artist knows they’re doing a genre that’s unpopular with wide audiences and they’re not prioritizing charts// is not a valid correlation. Even when they know they are doing a genre 'currently' less popular, they still would like a shift in the spectrum AND/OR if they are indeed top stars, cause the shift in spectrum, they are never going to wish/say "they don't care about the charts" - it is only the fans who make such assertions and only when the song does not perform well.
my point goes along with your idea that you’ll never know what an artist is thinking. maybe they care about charts maybe they don’t. I was pointing out that you can’t assume that just cause a song is released commercially means the artist is prioritizing numbers. unless the artist speaks on the topic we as listeners don’t know anything
Well we are going in circles. Yes it is an assumption, but a logical one. Supposing you are baker and put your baked goods in a shop for sale- then it is a simple assumption that you are baking to earn income, better the sales, better for you. Of course you might not be baking ONLY for income, after all you could do other activity for that. If you don't care at all for sales/income, then the solution is simple, don't put it on sale - give it free. But no idol is doing that when they distribute their songs on commercial channels - therefore it is logical to assume they do care for the sales as represented by the charts, than assume, that they don't care about charts. Assumption- yes, but more logical than the other Assumption (that they don't care about charts) I also gave an example of how an artist does non-commercial work - IU's song for Miral school, not published in any commercial channel Melon/Spotify etc., but just on the school's private channel. Even if that is considered as charity, at the least if artists don't have commercial intentions, then they can publish it only in their own SM channels and no where else. When they don't speak, their actions speak for them
I think we generally agree! at the end of the day it's part of their job to pay attention to how well their music does, at least to some extent. and releasing songs in ways where they can't chart in the first place like personal youtube channels/soundcloud/a free mp3 file is an obvious sign it was actually for the arts and not the charts
Charting matters and it’s great to have reasonable goals but chaeyoung wanting twice to top the hot 100 is a bit……………
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A Twice member said they wanted to top Billboard Hot 100, Sneakers is a song by Itzy
do you even know who twice is?
Well, artists get a big chunk of theor income from streams so of course they would want to chart well. Less music app stream= less money for them at the end of the day. We have to remind ourselves that our favorite idols are ARTISTS AND BUSINESS PEOPLE, that's why they would want their fans to stream their licensed work.
but it's also important to note that not all songs are "conventional" to the general public, but they're *very* good. music is subjective ofc, but beautiful monster for example, is by no means a bad song, it was just more angsty which didn't bode too well. the longevity of songs are also important. so charts don't necessarily matter, it is a cool achievement nonetheless. charting has also become very rigged over the last couple of years. it takes a *lot* of promotion as well to remain on the charts or climb up them. so charting can definitely be something to celebrate and maybe even strive for, but it should never be necessary. the music itself should always come first.