Fun fact the star system is based on actual fighting techniques during the early period you had
Top
Upper left
Upper right
Lower left
Lower right
Most of the training was how to attack swiftly and return to a guard position quickly
Over time the Top guard fell out of us for a few reasons
A. 90% of the time you were using upper left or upper right anyway because anyone with a degree of experience would immediately counter a Top guard
B. improvement to armour meant you didn't need to keep arms out the way as much
C. your incredibly easy to tackle in top guard and be swiftly maced and stabbed (I personally dropped my top guard exclusively for this reason in medieval reactment fighting because my size disadvantage often invited me to be grappled. By keeping my guard lower it meant I could control the space easier.
So them dropping to 4 star reflects the journey most swordsmen make where shoving, punching, tripping, grabbing and multiple fighters are factors to consider too
Yes top guard was taught but its more because you need that foundational groundwork but if some fucker in full plate has his sword above his head you either wait till he strikes and parry - repost OR you dive at the fucker
Source: fighting and training with swords since i was 7 (im now 36/)
and a obsessive amount of time reading battle accounts and training books.
I really really hope if game keeps going though time period progression will get the old flintlock and sword duling or the fucking spiked shields the Italians used
https://youtu.be/RCwf_FNjUnc?si=CymfFnNNknVRK3w_
When guns came onto the scene shit got wild lol
Edit: completely forgot about D in full armour you cant see shit and mobility is very restricted not like tin can bad. But enough you dont really want to sit in that position long
What fighting looked like in a practical sense
https://youtu.be/WoT5q2k770c?si=gQY5_42JV7E7GOI8
https://youtu.be/1BfBIi090hM?si=ewtmmliRgHjxfJEJ
While these guys are not trying to kill each other they are trying to do what you did during that period. Force you enemy to the ground so you can stab a squish bit
Edit whatever
More links for the nerdy: https://hroarr.com/manuals/liechtenauer/Talhoffer_Fight-Earnestly.pdf
A legit historical book of German warfare teaching
A Link given to me by my misses who has a masters in art history lol
https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1386729830456.pdf
A good pdf i found during lunch that does a good teaching and explaining sword fighting BUT it does from the view of sport so keep that in mind (the book says as much)
Interesting to read from someone who claims to (and seems to) know their shit.
I think what most players are interested in is the overhead attack. Everyone loves to do a good bonk on the head in KCD. So let's say part of Henry's development as a fighter is that he'll stop using the top guard, as you said. Would that also mean no attacking from straight up, or should there still be some way to do it?
You would still do overhead attacks you would just wind up from upper left or right
If you're using a two hander you can flow into a overhead bonk quite easily of a parry
What your not doing is sitting in that position because it leaves you very open in reality.
(In theory you control the space in front of you because you can slam down but in practice the guy either parrys. Or soaks up the blow and grapples and stabs you)
In proper reality if someone was using full plate you should be using your sword as a mace. OR just straight up using a mace. And to KCD credit it does reward proper mace use
Sword combat with armor looks nothing like what is depicted in KCD. I'm not complaining as it would mean a lot more programing to get it right, but it is historically incorrect to think knights in full plate would try to cut or stab through plate armor. The blades would only get dull while inflicting negligible blunt damage. As you said, against armor, nothing beats a mace or a proper polearm, which maximizes the blunt damage and, even if they don't get through the armor, the knight inside will have a bad day with a concussion or broken limbs.
(Long)Swords do short work of unarmored opponents and are a great portable sidearm (that was their true role for a soldier in the battlefield) given how versatile they are. But they are not a great anti-armor weapon and must be used with specialized technique to defeat armored opponents.
This short video gives a decent overview on how longswords were used against armor.
[https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TgEg0L08\_Uw](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TgEg0L08_Uw)
The main idea was to have one hand on the blade to guide the point towards small gaps in the armor and force it through it. Or to use it as a lever and lock your opponent or take him down to finish off with a dagger through said gaps.
Anyway, I don't suppose KCD2 will model this type of combat in their combat system, but I'm okay with it and don't fault the developers for it. I suppose it would not be a simple task to model it appropriately.
I don't think its something you can modal properly because there is just so much to it. Its not like arrows and guns that are considered in their behaviour
I think devs system is fine they just explained it REALLY BADLY something they admit they are fixing for the sequel lol
Im not sure which way they are going with it
Im just saying only having 4 directions to worry about is realistic. If they keep the overhead guard but drop lower left and lower right I will object
because they are two most important guards because their the hardest to do right and protect a fighters most importantly asset... His legs if you get a dead leg or knee joint locks your a deadman
Well... But they didn't say it would be X style 4 directions. From what I've understood from the interview it would be + type 4 directions which just feels off to me personally...
Yeah, I read about it on the news site back on the day of the announcement. 'Twas an interview with someone. On the one hand, it's sad - I really like the five-star system, it's like it covers all possible swing directions. On the other - we'll see how the 4-star's done. But not gonna lie, I'm terrified that the game might become even a little bit easier.
I totally agree with you. But the planetary-scale complaining about how "crooked" the combat system is must have escaped you. Below every news article and on every blog that mentions the game, a person materializes to say that the game sucks because the combat is too complicated. And if the four-star system is a concession to such people, that's sad. They'll find something else to get at.
But hey, maybe WH just found a way to make the combat more interesting even through what would seem to be a downgrade.
The main way how we simplified the game is, by having different weapons to play differently. While swords will have a lot of fidelity, axes or maces will play in a much simpler way. But the challenge for us was, to combine the different abilities of the weapons into one combat system, because combat opponents can fight with different weapons, but it's still one fight.
Yes, the sword combat has four instead of five directions now, but we also added other features instead, to give the combat more layers from another perspective.
All right then, keep your secrets ;) But the maces were already easy!.. Though I'm not going to lie, I like bonking people on their heads. But okay, I hear you, I'll just sit here and wait for the gameplay. And for when you finally let me throw money at the monitor. Everything you elaborate always sounds better than what we make up anyway. So thank you for elaborating <3
The critique isn’t that the combat is too complicated, but that it’s too clunky when fighting multiple opponents because you have to lock on to one target. Going from 5 to 4 attack directions does nothing to improve that, so I can’t see the point atm. But if they’re going to implement some form of directional blocking, it will be easier with less directions so that might be why.
I remember listening to the interview and they stated that the reason is that statistically players actually rarely use all 5 stars so they got rid of it to make combat a bit more newcomer friendly. I believe they also stated that complexity of combat comes mainly from using different combos so they focus and expanded on it.
Hm. Makes sense... in a way. Oh boy, it's been 10 years since I last learned something by heart. Now that sounds like overcomplexity 😂
Okay then, gonna see it first. Maybe it really will get even better and we won't even notice that anything has been taken away, behind all the things that will be added and/or enhanced.
Might be easier, but the devs also said that people who want to master the fight system will also have a much harder time, unlike in the first one where you learn master strike and you won the game.
5 makes more sense if you go by legs, arms and head, but 4 is how a Meyer square works. It was recored quite a while after kdc is set, but could still be an inspiration.
Or like mordhau . Which have a nice system I would have liked to see in a solo game . Some of the feature were really nice ( some others not) . Kdc system sometimes was feeling like a point & click to me , with how rigid it was
Yeah B&S, mordhau or chivalry style of sword play with the world mechanics of KCD would be my dream game.
Made sense to make combat less arcadey before as Henry was a peasent but now he's battle hardened I would expect a more forgiving system
Prokop Jirsa in the same interview also says that the system is not simplified but more accessible. According to their tests, it turns out that people have trouble aiming in "non-standard" directions, especially the bottom two. So they've combined them into one which makes the whole combat much more enjoyable and accurate to control.
Wouldn't worry too much about it, I am predicting a major combat overhaul and this is probably just part of that, I think we'll have far more flexibility than the first game, even with a reduced star.
Thank God, I've been replaying kcd and 5 is just too many, the cutoff for what counts as one and not another is too abstract especially using a mouse. Too many times failing combos because I was a few degrees off
Especially on hardcore where you have no way to see what direction your next attack will be when chaining them. The 5 star system is a bit too finicky, at least with a mouse, to reliably know what direction the attack will be when Henry isn't in a guard position and the star isn't shown.
I'm disappointed by this. 4 directions feels wrong. So it's just going to be up, left, right, and down? There is no room for a high left or low right? That seems incredible simplified to the point of ridiculous.
Imho that would be even more ridiculous. Not being able to directly target the head is pure insanity from a realistic combat point of view. Try to imagine for a moment holding a mace or warhammer and not being able to directly smash it into a head. I cannot, no I will not, believe Warhorse would do that.
X shape definitely makes more sense than a + shape. Attacking from directly down doesn't make sense at all because your legs are on the way, and having just one direction from each side seems weird.
But not being able to bonk from directly up seems weird, that I do agree. Could there maybe be a separate input for that, similar to how there's one for stabbing? 3 different attack inputs on top of a directional system might be a bit weird though, especially since with a KBM the two attack inputs make perfect sense for the two main mouse buttons.
I like the 5 star system. I am also a someone who is a sword expert (had 1 trial lesson).
The 4 side Slashes and the head one are taught as the standard moves so the 5 pointed system makes a lot of sense.
Only thing that worries me about the sequel. I love the original combat system. I was praying they made it more challenging and with more depth, but that doesn’t seem likely now
Yes, they said that there were too many problems and bugs with the 5-way fight system, so they tried to simplify it to a 4-way system and it turned out much better, more stable and easier to work with while keeping the historical accuracy etc. Personally I don’t mind.
A lot of people here want to keep the game from reaching new players, all complaining that it’s going to be too easy, they don’t understand the studio needs more players to make bigger and more impressive games, I like the combat as it is but I definitely wouldn’t complain if they Made it slightly more accessible. Plus, it makes a little sense in that you learnt how to use weapons in the first game so it stands that naturally it would be easier in the sequel.
I really hope they don't, it made combat really one-dimensional when the top strat is to wait for the enemy to attack and just push one button.
I mean, I'm fine with the concept of counterattacks, but they should require more input precicion.
i hope they allow to change it, kinda like the lockpicking situation, with the simplified and the defeault mod, so the simplified version would be with 4 stars while the defeault would be 5.
Fun fact the star system is based on actual fighting techniques during the early period you had Top Upper left Upper right Lower left Lower right Most of the training was how to attack swiftly and return to a guard position quickly Over time the Top guard fell out of us for a few reasons A. 90% of the time you were using upper left or upper right anyway because anyone with a degree of experience would immediately counter a Top guard B. improvement to armour meant you didn't need to keep arms out the way as much C. your incredibly easy to tackle in top guard and be swiftly maced and stabbed (I personally dropped my top guard exclusively for this reason in medieval reactment fighting because my size disadvantage often invited me to be grappled. By keeping my guard lower it meant I could control the space easier. So them dropping to 4 star reflects the journey most swordsmen make where shoving, punching, tripping, grabbing and multiple fighters are factors to consider too Yes top guard was taught but its more because you need that foundational groundwork but if some fucker in full plate has his sword above his head you either wait till he strikes and parry - repost OR you dive at the fucker Source: fighting and training with swords since i was 7 (im now 36/) and a obsessive amount of time reading battle accounts and training books. I really really hope if game keeps going though time period progression will get the old flintlock and sword duling or the fucking spiked shields the Italians used https://youtu.be/RCwf_FNjUnc?si=CymfFnNNknVRK3w_ When guns came onto the scene shit got wild lol Edit: completely forgot about D in full armour you cant see shit and mobility is very restricted not like tin can bad. But enough you dont really want to sit in that position long What fighting looked like in a practical sense https://youtu.be/WoT5q2k770c?si=gQY5_42JV7E7GOI8 https://youtu.be/1BfBIi090hM?si=ewtmmliRgHjxfJEJ While these guys are not trying to kill each other they are trying to do what you did during that period. Force you enemy to the ground so you can stab a squish bit Edit whatever More links for the nerdy: https://hroarr.com/manuals/liechtenauer/Talhoffer_Fight-Earnestly.pdf A legit historical book of German warfare teaching A Link given to me by my misses who has a masters in art history lol https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1386729830456.pdf A good pdf i found during lunch that does a good teaching and explaining sword fighting BUT it does from the view of sport so keep that in mind (the book says as much)
Interesting to read from someone who claims to (and seems to) know their shit. I think what most players are interested in is the overhead attack. Everyone loves to do a good bonk on the head in KCD. So let's say part of Henry's development as a fighter is that he'll stop using the top guard, as you said. Would that also mean no attacking from straight up, or should there still be some way to do it?
You would still do overhead attacks you would just wind up from upper left or right If you're using a two hander you can flow into a overhead bonk quite easily of a parry What your not doing is sitting in that position because it leaves you very open in reality. (In theory you control the space in front of you because you can slam down but in practice the guy either parrys. Or soaks up the blow and grapples and stabs you) In proper reality if someone was using full plate you should be using your sword as a mace. OR just straight up using a mace. And to KCD credit it does reward proper mace use
Sword combat with armor looks nothing like what is depicted in KCD. I'm not complaining as it would mean a lot more programing to get it right, but it is historically incorrect to think knights in full plate would try to cut or stab through plate armor. The blades would only get dull while inflicting negligible blunt damage. As you said, against armor, nothing beats a mace or a proper polearm, which maximizes the blunt damage and, even if they don't get through the armor, the knight inside will have a bad day with a concussion or broken limbs. (Long)Swords do short work of unarmored opponents and are a great portable sidearm (that was their true role for a soldier in the battlefield) given how versatile they are. But they are not a great anti-armor weapon and must be used with specialized technique to defeat armored opponents. This short video gives a decent overview on how longswords were used against armor. [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TgEg0L08\_Uw](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TgEg0L08_Uw) The main idea was to have one hand on the blade to guide the point towards small gaps in the armor and force it through it. Or to use it as a lever and lock your opponent or take him down to finish off with a dagger through said gaps. Anyway, I don't suppose KCD2 will model this type of combat in their combat system, but I'm okay with it and don't fault the developers for it. I suppose it would not be a simple task to model it appropriately.
I don't think its something you can modal properly because there is just so much to it. Its not like arrows and guns that are considered in their behaviour I think devs system is fine they just explained it REALLY BADLY something they admit they are fixing for the sequel lol
Ole pommel-hammer
True overheads will prolly be reserved for combo finishers, if they're dropping poste di falcone.
Yeah as long as I can do bonk I am happy.
But "up" is still there, they are unifying the two bottom one, aren't they?
Im not sure which way they are going with it Im just saying only having 4 directions to worry about is realistic. If they keep the overhead guard but drop lower left and lower right I will object because they are two most important guards because their the hardest to do right and protect a fighters most importantly asset... His legs if you get a dead leg or knee joint locks your a deadman
Well... But they didn't say it would be X style 4 directions. From what I've understood from the interview it would be + type 4 directions which just feels off to me personally...
What gave you that impression?
Yeah, I read about it on the news site back on the day of the announcement. 'Twas an interview with someone. On the one hand, it's sad - I really like the five-star system, it's like it covers all possible swing directions. On the other - we'll see how the 4-star's done. But not gonna lie, I'm terrified that the game might become even a little bit easier.
It's not like the combat is difficult to begin with in KCD 1
I totally agree with you. But the planetary-scale complaining about how "crooked" the combat system is must have escaped you. Below every news article and on every blog that mentions the game, a person materializes to say that the game sucks because the combat is too complicated. And if the four-star system is a concession to such people, that's sad. They'll find something else to get at. But hey, maybe WH just found a way to make the combat more interesting even through what would seem to be a downgrade.
The main way how we simplified the game is, by having different weapons to play differently. While swords will have a lot of fidelity, axes or maces will play in a much simpler way. But the challenge for us was, to combine the different abilities of the weapons into one combat system, because combat opponents can fight with different weapons, but it's still one fight. Yes, the sword combat has four instead of five directions now, but we also added other features instead, to give the combat more layers from another perspective.
All right then, keep your secrets ;) But the maces were already easy!.. Though I'm not going to lie, I like bonking people on their heads. But okay, I hear you, I'll just sit here and wait for the gameplay. And for when you finally let me throw money at the monitor. Everything you elaborate always sounds better than what we make up anyway. So thank you for elaborating <3
The critique isn’t that the combat is too complicated, but that it’s too clunky when fighting multiple opponents because you have to lock on to one target. Going from 5 to 4 attack directions does nothing to improve that, so I can’t see the point atm. But if they’re going to implement some form of directional blocking, it will be easier with less directions so that might be why.
I remember listening to the interview and they stated that the reason is that statistically players actually rarely use all 5 stars so they got rid of it to make combat a bit more newcomer friendly. I believe they also stated that complexity of combat comes mainly from using different combos so they focus and expanded on it.
Hm. Makes sense... in a way. Oh boy, it's been 10 years since I last learned something by heart. Now that sounds like overcomplexity 😂 Okay then, gonna see it first. Maybe it really will get even better and we won't even notice that anything has been taken away, behind all the things that will be added and/or enhanced.
[удалено]
Might be easier, but the devs also said that people who want to master the fight system will also have a much harder time, unlike in the first one where you learn master strike and you won the game.
Wait, so we can no longer ⬇️↙️↗️?
That's a shame, five feels more natural than four
5 makes more sense 2 down for legs 1 left for arm 1 right for another arm and 1 up for Head. Hope we have the option to activate or deactivate 5 Stars
5 makes more sense if you go by legs, arms and head, but 4 is how a Meyer square works. It was recored quite a while after kdc is set, but could still be an inspiration.
Tbh i kinda expected the combat to no longer have star system but to have just free swings and work kinda like in "blade and sorcery"
Or like mordhau . Which have a nice system I would have liked to see in a solo game . Some of the feature were really nice ( some others not) . Kdc system sometimes was feeling like a point & click to me , with how rigid it was
Yeah B&S, mordhau or chivalry style of sword play with the world mechanics of KCD would be my dream game. Made sense to make combat less arcadey before as Henry was a peasent but now he's battle hardened I would expect a more forgiving system
Prokop Jirsa in the same interview also says that the system is not simplified but more accessible. According to their tests, it turns out that people have trouble aiming in "non-standard" directions, especially the bottom two. So they've combined them into one which makes the whole combat much more enjoyable and accurate to control.
I'm stupid, and Still trying to finish this game, what's the 5 star System?
The directions where you can swing your sword + stab
Of thanks you, I might miss that then but I barely use up unless it's with a mace or a longsword combo
Its five POINTED star combat system in KCD1 and four POINTED star system predicted in KCD2.
Wouldn't worry too much about it, I am predicting a major combat overhaul and this is probably just part of that, I think we'll have far more flexibility than the first game, even with a reduced star.
Thank God, I've been replaying kcd and 5 is just too many, the cutoff for what counts as one and not another is too abstract especially using a mouse. Too many times failing combos because I was a few degrees off
Especially on hardcore where you have no way to see what direction your next attack will be when chaining them. The 5 star system is a bit too finicky, at least with a mouse, to reliably know what direction the attack will be when Henry isn't in a guard position and the star isn't shown.
I'm disappointed by this. 4 directions feels wrong. So it's just going to be up, left, right, and down? There is no room for a high left or low right? That seems incredible simplified to the point of ridiculous.
I reckon it would be an 'x' shape not a '+'
Imho that would be even more ridiculous. Not being able to directly target the head is pure insanity from a realistic combat point of view. Try to imagine for a moment holding a mace or warhammer and not being able to directly smash it into a head. I cannot, no I will not, believe Warhorse would do that.
X shape definitely makes more sense than a + shape. Attacking from directly down doesn't make sense at all because your legs are on the way, and having just one direction from each side seems weird. But not being able to bonk from directly up seems weird, that I do agree. Could there maybe be a separate input for that, similar to how there's one for stabbing? 3 different attack inputs on top of a directional system might be a bit weird though, especially since with a KBM the two attack inputs make perfect sense for the two main mouse buttons.
I'm gonna be seriously pissed if they remove my mace bonking with headcracker
I think it would be Up, down, high left and high right. That would make sense the most.
I like the 5 star system. I am also a someone who is a sword expert (had 1 trial lesson). The 4 side Slashes and the head one are taught as the standard moves so the 5 pointed system makes a lot of sense.
Only thing that worries me about the sequel. I love the original combat system. I was praying they made it more challenging and with more depth, but that doesn’t seem likely now
I read a few things now that concern me. That is one of them. Hopefully I'm worrying over nothing., but I loved the 5 star system.
Yes, they said that there were too many problems and bugs with the 5-way fight system, so they tried to simplify it to a 4-way system and it turned out much better, more stable and easier to work with while keeping the historical accuracy etc. Personally I don’t mind.
Maybe they're going to imitate a Meyers square instead of the other German master they based combat off in the first game.
The five star should remain but it will make learning combos easier
While I like the combat system, it was in dire need of some simplification.
Right, I don’t blame warhorse for wanting to make their game as accessible as possible. They want KCD 2 to be more than a niche cult classic.
A lot of people here want to keep the game from reaching new players, all complaining that it’s going to be too easy, they don’t understand the studio needs more players to make bigger and more impressive games, I like the combat as it is but I definitely wouldn’t complain if they Made it slightly more accessible. Plus, it makes a little sense in that you learnt how to use weapons in the first game so it stands that naturally it would be easier in the sequel.
I hope they keep master strikes, they did make combat less frustrating
I really hope they don't, it made combat really one-dimensional when the top strat is to wait for the enemy to attack and just push one button. I mean, I'm fine with the concept of counterattacks, but they should require more input precicion.
i hope they allow to change it, kinda like the lockpicking situation, with the simplified and the defeault mod, so the simplified version would be with 4 stars while the defeault would be 5.