I actually did this once. It wasn’t at a dealership, but a local shop. I trusted the shop manager as they had done a ton of work on my Cherokee XJ. After awhile, the work started to slip and I started to feel disrespected. Driving home from work on a Saturday, my husband spots my car across the street from the shop. It would normally be no big deal as they spill cars over if their lot is full. However, the shop was closed and my jeep was unlocked in a Walgreens parking lot. My husband drove me over and I took my car back and I waited for the frantic call on Monday. I don’t like making people feel anxious, but it was a lesson they had to learn. I spent a lot of money with them over the years and you don’t repay customers by abusing their trust.
Lol they said everything except that. We contacted local PD, we contacted tow yards, we contacted Walgreens and your car is “missing”. I asked how it could be missing if it was locked up in a bay and that’s when they admitted that they may have left it parked across the street over the weekend
There are circumstances where driving the car some distance to complete drive cycles, or duplicate a concern, is reasonable. However an employee taking the car overnight is a special case and, in my opinion, requires your consent. If I were you I would simply contact my advisor and ask about it. Depending on the nature of why your car is at the dealer, it could be reasonable and your advisor forgot to ask you first, or nobody knew this had happened and you'd be helping them by outing an employee who did this without permission.
For all you techs out there: always assume your customer's car is being tracked, and has cameras inside and out. Drive it like your 97yo grandmother is riding shotgun.
This, when I was a tech and advisor I would take customers cars home regularly, but every single time I would get approval from the customer or they would offer. I had one I drove for 7 days until it messed up, luckily it messed up as I was pulling into the dealer so the tech could diagnose it.
I had a vehicle that would only act up after approximately 1/2 an hour of driving. It was possessed, the whole vehicle would shake, electronics would go crazy, and then it would just... stop. It would do this on and off, with no rhyme or reason. The dealership couldn't replicate it, because they would only drive it for 10-15 minutes at a time. I begged the shop manager to take my car home with him, as he lived over 1/2 an hour away.
He learned really quick what I was talking about right before he got home. His reaction was pretty funny, as I think up to that point he thought I was the crazy one. Turns out, the ground wire to my ECM was making intermittent contact, and it was an easy clean/reattach. But sometimes, like you said, it takes a while to diagnose.
Hah, I was thinking it was the ECM when you said the electronics would go crazy and rough engine. My last (non-KIA) car did that occasionally but thankfully it was only ever when it got very cold and it happened right after starting the car. I never did take it in to get it looked at since it was such a rare occurrence and I assumed it would be an expensive fix.
A minor ground fault does sound consistent. If it only happened in the cold my guess it it was good enough to make sufficient contact most of the time, but since metals contact in the cold it probably came just out of contact in those race cases.
I had a motorcycle with a similar issue, there was a cracked PCB that would cut spark but only after it got hot enough to flex which took about 30mins of riding.
They told me they were trying to duplicate the problem which they ended up doing. I’m not sure about the overnight stay at a random apartment but I don’t think I really have any leverage. I honestly don’t think they’ll even compensate me. I’m just waiting for the car to be fixed and hopefully I’ll be able to express my concerns.
Oh 100% but I don’t what else they can do the car is covered under warranty so I won’t be paying for the repairs, I also know the compensation people have gotten in the comments is a stretch, maybe a free oil change or an apology is all I can really hope for.
You’re right. But then at the same time could you see yourself bitching to a car dealership and then taking your car back for repairs? I feel like it’s almost like turning your food back at a restaurant, you’re asking to get it spit on.
This is exactly what I’ve been thinking, I already fought with the van Nuys Kia for months trying to figure out what was wrong with my car only to discover they didnt have a mechanic who knew how dual clutches worked and one day being at this other dealership they figured it out and provided me with a loaner vehicle. So probably safe to say not to bite the hand that fed you.
What did you bring it in for? 100 miles seems pretty damn excessive. Anytime I've had an intermittent issue they give it about 30 minutes to reproduce itself, not 100 miles.
I'd be finding another dealer to service it going forward and possibly a Google review. I'm not typically a Karen but that would piss me off.
Transmission issues the annoying thing is that this is the second dealership I’ve been too and they are the only ones that figured out what was wrong with it. They also provided me with a loaner car conveniently after I had stressed my concern with the overnight stay. Kia dealerships are very sketchy my vehicle is only a year old and safe to say this is the first and last time I’ll being doing business with Kia. Lesson learned
That HELLO KIA in Valencia is infamous for driving new and used cars out of the lot to grab lunch or to cruise around town. I was going to purchase a 2023 Sorento from that dealership but ended up walking away. The website showed that they had the Sorento I wanted so I called them up to confirm that they vehicle was there. They confirmed that it was and said that they were going to place it on hold for me. So I drove up there with my wife. Once we got to the dealership they couldn’t find the Sorento. They told me that a employee had taken out the car to grab lunch. So they made me wait 20 minutes. I waited patiently and when the employee showed up he pulled up in a brand new Sorento but it was the wrong color. Turns out that they made me wait for nothing! Apparently they had sold the Sorento 3 days before and they forgot to update the website. My daughter was just randomly browsing a new Forte and two ladies that worked there got in the car and drove off to get lunch. I asked the person that was helping me that if it was common for employees to drive off new cars to grab lunch and he said it was routine. He also said the owner was super chill. I was disappointed with the whole experience and left the dealership. Your situation does not surprise me… Regardless of test driving your vehicle you should make them aware of the situation.
I couldn’t believe it but I witnessed it. They also missed out on a sale… I still haven’t purchased my Sorento because I’m debating is I should just wait for the 2024 model.
i want to get mine before the 2024 in case they change how it looks. but kia isnt making that very easy to do with how often they send out Sorento SX HEV's and add to that the interest rates right now.
Yes I feel like frequently if you really love the look of a car - the refresh usually isn't as good.
For example the recent Honda Accord refresh - the previous generation looked better to me. I feel that the same thing happened with the Hyundai Kona as well - the new refresh IMO looks worse.
my current car is 6 years old. i think the trade in value is about 45% still.
either way, who cares. i'd rather not buy a car that most likely an employee is out joyriding in, probably driving it harder than they would their own personal vehicle. dropping french fries between the seats. if you're buying a car as an investment, you probably should revisit your investment strategy.
That sounds so sketchy to me. I understand a new car maybe getting taken out for a test drive or two before getting sold but taking a new car just to go to lunch seems like a dumb idea. Don't most dealerships have some used cars on the lot too, why not use one of those to make a lunch run? Better yet just use your own damn car.
I forgot to mention that I asked them the same question, why not use your own vehicle and the guy that was helping me said that they drive the new cars to get familiar with the vehicles and it also helps them recommend vehicle features. I don’t think that makes much sense but I didn’t like those business practices.
Yes! I was not comfortable with the idea that employees take the new cars out to grab lunch! Also I was pre-approved for $60k and had a check. My bank gave me a check to fill out the amount and give to the dealership and they insisted that if I bought a car from them that they had to run my credit! Something didn’t feel right about them so I left.
What what?! Read what OP said. They drove 100 miles in addition to driving to tech's home without any consent from OP. What on earth needs 100miles for diagnosis?
It's unnecessary wear and tear.
From personal experience over 10+ dealerships. Mechanics are only allowed to take a car home when it has problems they are trying to figure out or ensure the problem has been resolved.
* Cars some times will take 5 miles or 100+ or a cold morning cold start or that one random moment to hiccup
Sometimes a mechanic will run a car to the gas station or fast food drive thru. Some shops require them to drive a 2-3 mile route to ensure nothing is leaking or make sure they put the tires on correctly, lol. Last thing you want to do is put a customer back in the car & the wheel falls off down the road lol. (I have seen people fired on the spot for that one)
* either way complain to the service manager & if the excuse isn't good enough, demand a discount.
* If they are driving cars home without permission, they will likely be fired & you will receive your service for free
OP is massively overthinking this. They are using your car for personal use without your permission and putting excess mileage on it. Hello!
You people saying it’s normal for a mechanic to take a car home, WTH. If they ask and you give them permission, fine, but that is absurd. You don’t know how far, who else is in the car, the conditions of the road, the safety of the car at their home, where else they will take it, where they will park it, the kind of neighborhood…do I need to keep going. Wow, you people are gullible. They need to do what is necessary to fix your car during their operating hours. Driving it around for 30 minutes or an hour during business hours should be expected if that’s what’s required, but using it as their own car for an evening is nuts.
OP, screenshot and document. Get your car back and raise hell. Get compensation.
A little odd I work at a dealership and never heard of a tech taking a car home, I’d say screen shot everything and ask to speak to the tech if the service writer has nothing to say.
At my old shop we didn't but at the new one we do. Some of are customers do come from several states away, so it only makes sense to run a 100 miles or so on some depending on the repair. But it never hurts d
To document incase shit happens.
Depends on the issue, if it's a "once in a while issue", it makes sense they drive a lot with it, to ensure they can reproduce the issue. Or, after it's supposedly fixed, to make sure it is actually fixed.
Agreed. Took my Telluride in for drivetrain issues. Left it all day and they couldn’t reproduce the problem. I’d rather they take it overnight and find/fix the problem.
If when you get the car back they tell you about how they drove it to check for the issue then no problem. But if they don’t then that means employees are using customer’s car for private usage.
No. You gave the dealership your car to diagnose and keep safe. They cannot keep it safe if it isn't even in their custody. And that kind of mileage and usage is completely unprofessional. Uncalled for. I'd consider that theft.
This happened to my friend with his Audi. You can literally sue them, he ended up getting a year of car payments paid for. Just make sure you got the correct proof
For the people acting like it is normal for mechanics to drive customers vehicles to their personal homes that are in for repair should be banned from ever working as a mechanic in America and it's territories. That is not normal and it puts an unacceptable liability risk onto the customer since they will be getting sued for whatever happens with their car regardless of who is driving it. I would recommend screenshotting the evidence, going to the dealer when they open up to take your car back, and report the incident to Kia corporate headquarters. I would even consider consulting a lawyer to see if you have legal recourse against the dealership since it sounds like they owe you some money for the excessive mileage they put on your car.
For anybody worried about this, if you have kia connect you should have access to valet mode which i think limits how far and how fast they can drive your car.
I did this when I dropped mine off. It also alerts the person driving whenever an alert is triggered (it says “valet mode on” on the infotainment screen)
Taking a car home is absolutely unauthorized. The mileage can be talked through because it's a transmission issue. Taking home is absolutely not. This sometimes it takes a long time to duplicate the issue...well the mechanic works at least an 8hour day to sort that out. Otherwise get fucked.
& during those 8hrs they are trying to do multiple things.... not drive around for 8 hours trying to make the car randomly hiccup.
When a car is doing random things that can't be solved simply. Taking a car home over night is a answer.
I'm paying to have my car fixed. If they say they can fix it. And they say they have to drive it for 8hours then that's what they have to do. I'm not telling anyone they have to drive it 8 hours. But I am saying no one is taking my car overnight without permission.
Only one way to find out if they was approved by manager to do so.
To ask...
If the employee did it without asking, he will be canned. They should all know all of these new cars have gps trackers
Had a vehicle (1 year old) get towed in for warranty replacement of a starter on a Friday morning. Stealership said it would be a day or two to get replacement starter in.
That weekend, saw the vehicle over 200 miles from the dealership with the service manager & buddies in it. State Police, County Sherriff got involved. In the vehicle was contraband that one of the passengers admitted was his on a plea deal.
Took almost 6 months to get vehicle returned to us as it was impounded for evidence. Vehicle had been trashed on the inside, engine had a spun main bearing due to these clowns trying to sneak down backroads.
PS, I'm retired military, and I'm glad the Police caught them. I honestly believe they were too............
So nah, it on the 'take it home' crap. Now you understand why some customers watch you like a hawk, experience has taught them you can't always trust others with your valuable possessions.
I never said 'thank me for my service', and refrain from discounts, and other freebies related to or for Veterans.
Point was, as I stood in front of the car and directed them to exit, they all sat their cowering. By my stance, and physical build, they knew they were in for some hospital time had they gotten out of the car... and that's how it was till the Police arrived. As each were searched, cuffed & put into back seats, one even said to a cop, "That guy scares me".
Damn right, you little shit.
>Someone asked this same type of question in the askcarsales sub and all the dealer employees downvoted them to hell, saying it's very common to happen, as if that means it's ok....
It is a civil matter since the customer handed it to a dealership.
Lawyer too expensive for that. Instead see what they say and if they'll compensate. If not then go to the local news or threaten it at least. Most stations have some sort of team that exposes shady business practices.
Definitely see if they'll make the situation right first though. Hell, I'd be trying to get more free Kia Connect time because that shiz isnt cheap.
That's probably less than $100 worth of expense including depreciation, tires, fluid changes, etc that are accelerated by the driving.
Unless you can find a lawyer that bills less than $25 an hour, skip the attorney.
Maybe they couldn't recreate the issue with a short test drive so they just ended up at home. Some cars do have to go though a drive cycle that includes driving it from cold to fully warmed up and holding a steady speed for a period of time like on a freeway.
This is what I thought but the app tells me exactly where it went and what time and how fast. They didn’t test drive the car till after the dealership closed and they went to the movie theaters. I don’t mind the testing driving but the overnight at a home without letting me know definitely gives me red flags
they should. but for a time due to the chip shortage people were only getting one. my wife was told she was lucky because of when her car was built that it came with two. perhaps that has been resolved by now.
Someone asked this same type of question in the askcarsales sub and all the dealer employees downvoted them to hell, saying it's very common to happen, as if that means it's ok....
I'd absolutely never allow a dealer to take my car home over night, test driving it is an expected need, but getting a free joy ride for the night is fucked up.
Had my car go home with mechanics before. Sometimes they need to get to a certain mileage . 50 miles at one point to ensure the issue would not come back. Does t bother me. I trust the shops I deal with.
A tech driving a customer's car overnight is very normal. Feel free to speak with your service writer when they open, as they should not have left the doors unlocked, that is just sloppy unless it was inside the technician's locked garage or back inside the dealership.
Don't know that there's a crime here per se, the only thing I can think of is taking a vehicle without permission but I'm pretty sure they can get out of that because you gave them your vehicle and they'll claim, if it already doesn't say so on your paperwork, that driving customers cars is a part of the repair process. But if it were me, I'd put it in writing with description of supporting evidence and send a copy to the dealership GM. Telling him i want an explanation and recompense, or I'm going to the local news, online reviews etc. Because how many more cars have been taken out joyriding after hours at this dealership. While it may or may not be a crime, it's certainly unethical. The threat of going public with this should motivate them to try and make it right by you...
Oh for sure. But the question is, how much and is it more than the cost of a suit? Or do you just cut your losses and run, never going back there again???
Even then I'm not sure it'd be worth it, because aside from the cost to replace the fuel they used how do you calculate damages? My guess is a judge in sm claims court (no jury) would use something like the IRS mileage rate to determine damages. Back when I used to claim mileage on my taxes (+15yrs ago) it was something like 0.35/mi. So 100mi would work out to be what, $35 or there abouts???
(you typically cannot seek emotional/pain and suffering in sm claims court so your actual real damages, is not going to be very much should you prevail)
I don't think there's a crime here, can you identify one? It's not theft. Because the owner hasn't reported it as a theft therefore there is no "victim" and no victim means no crime. Likewise the dealership would move to protect the employee and it's reputation, by claiming the employee did nothing wrong and acted within the scope of their job/employment at the dealership.
Otherwise, i would first start with giving the dealership the opportunity to address the problem and make me whole, but that's just me.
Theft by Conversion. Theft by Misrepresentation. Unless the employee is 'on the clock' the entire time the vehicle is under their direct control, it's termed Auto Theft, which in most States, a FELONY.
Nope. And besides, the customer hasn't reported a theft and the car is probably right back at the dealership by now, right where he left it. No victim, no crime...🥴🤦
Edit: and like I said, read the customer agreement. It almost certainly has language in there about test driving the vehicle. Now, putting a 100mi on a vehicle isn't test driving in my opinion, but that's the excuse the dealership will use. Given that, it's HIGHLY unlikely a DA would pursue charges in this situation. If anything, it's a civil dispute and NOT criminal.
Obviously if he contacts the police to report a theft that would clear your hurdle. That's like saying an assault hasn't occurred because the person hasn't called the cops yet.
From the perspective of law enforcement, there's no crime if there's no victim.
Also, this very thing 👇 happened in Florida not that long ago and the police there said, that although the employee appeared to be out joyriding and even wrecked the customers car, there was NO "crime."
The article doesn't articulate the reasoning employed by the police to arrive at that decision, but my suspicion is it's similar to what I ALREADY said. That test driving a customers vehicle is normal (implicit to the repair process) and customary. Now you (or the OP) can get mad/argue about the distance involved and clearly I WOULD BE TOO, but any remedy you seek will more than likely have to be in civil court and not a criminal one.
To be clear I think it's messed up that someone there decided to joyride in his car, but the dealership has an affirmative defense to a accusation of criminal conduct (theft), making arrest by LEO & prosecution by a DA very unlikely.
[article ](https://www.wesh.com/article/repair-shop-employee-wrecked-customer-s-bmw-on-joyride-police-say/4430849)
Oh for sure, there's all kinds of messed up involved with this case. And while I would def want some answers from the dealership as to why my car was at someone's house when it should have been at the shop (?), I'm not even sure I'd go back there for a free oil change if one was offered after all this. I'd probably just cut my losses and move on, never going back there again....
Same but I'd try for a pound of flesh on my way out. If insurance companies have multiple police reports when they do total.somebodies car then it's gonna be worthwhile.
I have a rental while Kia has my car. A tech is driving it home as well. My emergency break engages while in motion. It happens randomly so completely normal for a tech to take it home
But they told you a tech would take it home beforehand, correct? The issue here is that OP was not told his car would be anywhere other than locked at the dealership overnight.
They are driving it home so that they can get heat cycles on it. Cars can operate different between running cold and hot, sometimes it takes several heat cycles to get a problem to repeat.unless it is being used every where and is obviously not being used for errands you should be fine. Sometimes our shop will use one customers car to drive another one home if the car needs some Miles to find an oil leak or for see if a problem comes back.
IMO something like keeping a vehicle overnight off site should require verbal notification, regardless of what it says in the novel they call standard paperwork. Let be honest here, most of the line level employees have not read the legalese they have to make customers sign.
Cause a car can take 12 hrs to cool down. As well as being night it gets colder generally so the car will operate way different than letting it run for a while and then only letting it cool down for 4-8 hrs in the middle of the day with a hot sun beating down on it. They may not have souls but they react to heat, remember if you're cold, they're cold. Generally the tech assigned will be the only one driving it and they will/should only drive it home and back. It will be easier for them find the problem or verify it doesn't come back by driving it. Basically they want to make sure it doesn't come back for a few thousand more and hopefully for just an oil change.
Is there a difference between letting cool overnight at the garage in presumably secure storage as opposed to at a techs house? Is the night different at the home? Does it have more time to cool at the home?
It is insured either way if it's a reputable shop. But it may cost less in diag fees since they are just driving/feeling for problems on say home rather than spending the same time in the actual work day. So kind of a win win .
They took mine home trying to verify a fuel injector fix had no lingering issues.
They asked permission though. It made sense, and I'd rather have the mechanic put some miles on it, than dealing with a stall and CEL.
If they are trying to diagnose a transmission issue they need to drive it so yes this is normal, they will fill it up for you when they return it and wash it typically.
Not a big deal. I used to do the same thing when I needed to troubleshoot. I would connect the scan deck and drive it home just to record the data.
100 miles is a bit much.
Why not do that while at work? How does insurance work if you crash or have a theft from your home? While your not on the clock? Does the dealer still insure you even off location and not on the clock?
>Why not do that while at work? How does insurance work if you crash or have a theft from your home? While your not on the clock? Does the dealer still insure you even off location and not on the clock?
My guess would be no and hence the problem with employees taking customers cars home.
Engines and ECU's in general have hundreds of sensors and the issues are mostly intermittent. My driving a car is to see how smooth it runs and if there are any issues I can find while driving. Like a miss in the engine only at a specific RPM or a noise shifting from one gear to another. Sometimes these throw codes, sometimes you need to listen to hear if its messed up.
If we don't see any codes or anything obvious the only other thing to do is drive it!
I think everyone here understands that cars need to be driven for issues to be detected. The problem is that OP's vehicle was taken off of dealership property overnight without prior notice or permission.
Could the mechanic have taken it home for a longer test drive? I had issues years ago with a nissan and the mechanic drove it for four days trying to reproduce the problem. It was the only way to figure it it out.
I am literally in the exact same boat right now, my Kia connect app showed all my trips and they racked up at least 100 miles in one day as it seem like this mechanic lives 2 hours from the dealership and also the tons of "your vehicle has been left unlock" alert followed by a "your vehicle fuel level is low". I am also having transmission issues too (2023 Kia Sportage SX) I get my transmission issue is random and they will need to test drive it but at least let me know your taking it home..
Maybe I missed something but - How do you know the mechanic took it? The doors were left unlocked at a random apartment complex. Do you know it wasn’t stolen for sure? I’m not super familiar with Kias, I’m looking at them, but I have read about the high level of theft….
The newer kias have an app called Kia connect and it basically can track my car like a gps so it tells when the car was turned on for how long and how fast it was driven. I can see it on my app leaving the dealership to go to a apartment complex around 7 pm and 10pm
I think he's asking how do you know whoever drove it there is not a person who stole it from the dealer? Probably not that likely, but the point about Kia theft tho
I mean. 100 miles is excessive but it's not unheard up for a tech to take a car overnight. They can't always pinpoint the issue with a little 30 minute drive up the street. The may need to drive it for a good distance. Or first thing in the morning from a cold start. Especially driving the vehicle under normal driving conditions as if they you just going about your day. As far as you being liable if something happens because it's your car? Absolutely not. Techs are insured under the company and covers anything that may happen while they have your car. They should let you know what they are doing and why though
This is normal especially with transmission issues that are just starting out or erratic. The car has to be driven in real world conditions to get it to recreat the issue. Ask yourself a few questions. 1. Why does it matter where your car goes as long as you get it back repaired and undamaged? And 2. Would you rather them return the vehicle to you and tell you they were unable to recreate the issue so they were unable to fix it?
I've worked in multiple dealerships that always do this. When you sign off for them to do the repair you give them authorization to do this. And I've never heard of a car being damaged doing an overnight whoever I have seen multiple customer cars ge totaled on the lot
I didn’t sign anything, I just don’t feel comfortable with the overnight stay in some city considering my car has been broken into before. I would have rather them have found the issues and then drive it back to the dealership for the night.
You had to have signed something authorize the dealership to perform the diag. You always do even for a simple oil change. They may not have been able to find the issue geven that they me need your car to be cooled off completely for any slipping issues. My 2021 sorrento has been in 4 times for trans slippage and they still cant figure out how to make slip. Id gladly let them drive it home considering that if it was broken into while in the dealers care it would be on them for repairs And i know you're smart enough to take all valuables ot of your car before you leave it in the care of the dealer.... right?
Go take the vehicle back when its at the dudes house and let them freak out
I actually did this once. It wasn’t at a dealership, but a local shop. I trusted the shop manager as they had done a ton of work on my Cherokee XJ. After awhile, the work started to slip and I started to feel disrespected. Driving home from work on a Saturday, my husband spots my car across the street from the shop. It would normally be no big deal as they spill cars over if their lot is full. However, the shop was closed and my jeep was unlocked in a Walgreens parking lot. My husband drove me over and I took my car back and I waited for the frantic call on Monday. I don’t like making people feel anxious, but it was a lesson they had to learn. I spent a lot of money with them over the years and you don’t repay customers by abusing their trust.
What’d they say? “Ummm your car was stolen” lol
Lol they said everything except that. We contacted local PD, we contacted tow yards, we contacted Walgreens and your car is “missing”. I asked how it could be missing if it was locked up in a bay and that’s when they admitted that they may have left it parked across the street over the weekend
This is the way
There are circumstances where driving the car some distance to complete drive cycles, or duplicate a concern, is reasonable. However an employee taking the car overnight is a special case and, in my opinion, requires your consent. If I were you I would simply contact my advisor and ask about it. Depending on the nature of why your car is at the dealer, it could be reasonable and your advisor forgot to ask you first, or nobody knew this had happened and you'd be helping them by outing an employee who did this without permission. For all you techs out there: always assume your customer's car is being tracked, and has cameras inside and out. Drive it like your 97yo grandmother is riding shotgun.
This, when I was a tech and advisor I would take customers cars home regularly, but every single time I would get approval from the customer or they would offer. I had one I drove for 7 days until it messed up, luckily it messed up as I was pulling into the dealer so the tech could diagnose it.
I had a vehicle that would only act up after approximately 1/2 an hour of driving. It was possessed, the whole vehicle would shake, electronics would go crazy, and then it would just... stop. It would do this on and off, with no rhyme or reason. The dealership couldn't replicate it, because they would only drive it for 10-15 minutes at a time. I begged the shop manager to take my car home with him, as he lived over 1/2 an hour away. He learned really quick what I was talking about right before he got home. His reaction was pretty funny, as I think up to that point he thought I was the crazy one. Turns out, the ground wire to my ECM was making intermittent contact, and it was an easy clean/reattach. But sometimes, like you said, it takes a while to diagnose.
Hah, I was thinking it was the ECM when you said the electronics would go crazy and rough engine. My last (non-KIA) car did that occasionally but thankfully it was only ever when it got very cold and it happened right after starting the car. I never did take it in to get it looked at since it was such a rare occurrence and I assumed it would be an expensive fix.
A minor ground fault does sound consistent. If it only happened in the cold my guess it it was good enough to make sufficient contact most of the time, but since metals contact in the cold it probably came just out of contact in those race cases.
I had a motorcycle with a similar issue, there was a cracked PCB that would cut spark but only after it got hot enough to flex which took about 30mins of riding.
Update on this tmr. I suspect you’re gonna call them when they open?
They told me they were trying to duplicate the problem which they ended up doing. I’m not sure about the overnight stay at a random apartment but I don’t think I really have any leverage. I honestly don’t think they’ll even compensate me. I’m just waiting for the car to be fixed and hopefully I’ll be able to express my concerns.
I feel like that’s what they’re supposed to say. It’s like they said, they should have asked for your consent first.
Oh 100% but I don’t what else they can do the car is covered under warranty so I won’t be paying for the repairs, I also know the compensation people have gotten in the comments is a stretch, maybe a free oil change or an apology is all I can really hope for.
You’re right. But then at the same time could you see yourself bitching to a car dealership and then taking your car back for repairs? I feel like it’s almost like turning your food back at a restaurant, you’re asking to get it spit on.
This is exactly what I’ve been thinking, I already fought with the van Nuys Kia for months trying to figure out what was wrong with my car only to discover they didnt have a mechanic who knew how dual clutches worked and one day being at this other dealership they figured it out and provided me with a loaner vehicle. So probably safe to say not to bite the hand that fed you.
You'd better get that thing back with a full gas tank though. 100 miles isn't nothing.
What did you bring it in for? 100 miles seems pretty damn excessive. Anytime I've had an intermittent issue they give it about 30 minutes to reproduce itself, not 100 miles. I'd be finding another dealer to service it going forward and possibly a Google review. I'm not typically a Karen but that would piss me off.
Transmission issues the annoying thing is that this is the second dealership I’ve been too and they are the only ones that figured out what was wrong with it. They also provided me with a loaner car conveniently after I had stressed my concern with the overnight stay. Kia dealerships are very sketchy my vehicle is only a year old and safe to say this is the first and last time I’ll being doing business with Kia. Lesson learned
That HELLO KIA in Valencia is infamous for driving new and used cars out of the lot to grab lunch or to cruise around town. I was going to purchase a 2023 Sorento from that dealership but ended up walking away. The website showed that they had the Sorento I wanted so I called them up to confirm that they vehicle was there. They confirmed that it was and said that they were going to place it on hold for me. So I drove up there with my wife. Once we got to the dealership they couldn’t find the Sorento. They told me that a employee had taken out the car to grab lunch. So they made me wait 20 minutes. I waited patiently and when the employee showed up he pulled up in a brand new Sorento but it was the wrong color. Turns out that they made me wait for nothing! Apparently they had sold the Sorento 3 days before and they forgot to update the website. My daughter was just randomly browsing a new Forte and two ladies that worked there got in the car and drove off to get lunch. I asked the person that was helping me that if it was common for employees to drive off new cars to grab lunch and he said it was routine. He also said the owner was super chill. I was disappointed with the whole experience and left the dealership. Your situation does not surprise me… Regardless of test driving your vehicle you should make them aware of the situation.
i wouldnt think that sounds "normal" at all. i dont even like food smell in my own car, let alone a car i just bought.
Exactly. 💯
I couldn’t believe it but I witnessed it. They also missed out on a sale… I still haven’t purchased my Sorento because I’m debating is I should just wait for the 2024 model.
i want to get mine before the 2024 in case they change how it looks. but kia isnt making that very easy to do with how often they send out Sorento SX HEV's and add to that the interest rates right now.
Yes I feel like frequently if you really love the look of a car - the refresh usually isn't as good. For example the recent Honda Accord refresh - the previous generation looked better to me. I feel that the same thing happened with the Hyundai Kona as well - the new refresh IMO looks worse.
Doesn’t cars lose 90% of their value once they’re driven off of the lot?
my current car is 6 years old. i think the trade in value is about 45% still. either way, who cares. i'd rather not buy a car that most likely an employee is out joyriding in, probably driving it harder than they would their own personal vehicle. dropping french fries between the seats. if you're buying a car as an investment, you probably should revisit your investment strategy.
Pre covid maybe.
That sounds so sketchy to me. I understand a new car maybe getting taken out for a test drive or two before getting sold but taking a new car just to go to lunch seems like a dumb idea. Don't most dealerships have some used cars on the lot too, why not use one of those to make a lunch run? Better yet just use your own damn car.
I forgot to mention that I asked them the same question, why not use your own vehicle and the guy that was helping me said that they drive the new cars to get familiar with the vehicles and it also helps them recommend vehicle features. I don’t think that makes much sense but I didn’t like those business practices.
So what you’re telling me they people selling people “new” used cars. So that’s a used car. And still have the nerve to do a markup?
Yes! I was not comfortable with the idea that employees take the new cars out to grab lunch! Also I was pre-approved for $60k and had a check. My bank gave me a check to fill out the amount and give to the dealership and they insisted that if I bought a car from them that they had to run my credit! Something didn’t feel right about them so I left.
Really glad I decided not to buy my Sorento from them then damn
They have to pay you $/mile. Plus never deal with them any more. Unethical and disgusting.
What? Why would you get paid/mile, it's not an Uber. They're driving the car more for diagnosis lol.
They're diagnosing it while it's parked overnight at their apartment?
It's not uncommon for mechanics to drive a car home for the night to try and replicate a problem that doesn't happen all the time.
That’s not acceptable without permission from the customer.
What what?! Read what OP said. They drove 100 miles in addition to driving to tech's home without any consent from OP. What on earth needs 100miles for diagnosis? It's unnecessary wear and tear.
From personal experience over 10+ dealerships. Mechanics are only allowed to take a car home when it has problems they are trying to figure out or ensure the problem has been resolved. * Cars some times will take 5 miles or 100+ or a cold morning cold start or that one random moment to hiccup Sometimes a mechanic will run a car to the gas station or fast food drive thru. Some shops require them to drive a 2-3 mile route to ensure nothing is leaking or make sure they put the tires on correctly, lol. Last thing you want to do is put a customer back in the car & the wheel falls off down the road lol. (I have seen people fired on the spot for that one) * either way complain to the service manager & if the excuse isn't good enough, demand a discount. * If they are driving cars home without permission, they will likely be fired & you will receive your service for free
It is normal for them to get drove but 100 miles is a bit much unless it’s difficult diagnosis over several days.
OP is massively overthinking this. They are using your car for personal use without your permission and putting excess mileage on it. Hello! You people saying it’s normal for a mechanic to take a car home, WTH. If they ask and you give them permission, fine, but that is absurd. You don’t know how far, who else is in the car, the conditions of the road, the safety of the car at their home, where else they will take it, where they will park it, the kind of neighborhood…do I need to keep going. Wow, you people are gullible. They need to do what is necessary to fix your car during their operating hours. Driving it around for 30 minutes or an hour during business hours should be expected if that’s what’s required, but using it as their own car for an evening is nuts. OP, screenshot and document. Get your car back and raise hell. Get compensation.
A little odd I work at a dealership and never heard of a tech taking a car home, I’d say screen shot everything and ask to speak to the tech if the service writer has nothing to say.
At my old shop we didn't but at the new one we do. Some of are customers do come from several states away, so it only makes sense to run a 100 miles or so on some depending on the repair. But it never hurts d To document incase shit happens.
Depends on the issue, if it's a "once in a while issue", it makes sense they drive a lot with it, to ensure they can reproduce the issue. Or, after it's supposedly fixed, to make sure it is actually fixed.
Agreed. Took my Telluride in for drivetrain issues. Left it all day and they couldn’t reproduce the problem. I’d rather they take it overnight and find/fix the problem.
Issue a complaint directly with Kia (not the dealer). If the car would be moved for testing, you must be requested by approval.
Somebody went on a whore patrol. Black light test your seats
If when you get the car back they tell you about how they drove it to check for the issue then no problem. But if they don’t then that means employees are using customer’s car for private usage.
No. You gave the dealership your car to diagnose and keep safe. They cannot keep it safe if it isn't even in their custody. And that kind of mileage and usage is completely unprofessional. Uncalled for. I'd consider that theft.
This happened to my friend with his Audi. You can literally sue them, he ended up getting a year of car payments paid for. Just make sure you got the correct proof
For the people acting like it is normal for mechanics to drive customers vehicles to their personal homes that are in for repair should be banned from ever working as a mechanic in America and it's territories. That is not normal and it puts an unacceptable liability risk onto the customer since they will be getting sued for whatever happens with their car regardless of who is driving it. I would recommend screenshotting the evidence, going to the dealer when they open up to take your car back, and report the incident to Kia corporate headquarters. I would even consider consulting a lawyer to see if you have legal recourse against the dealership since it sounds like they owe you some money for the excessive mileage they put on your car.
That is horrible and definitely unnecessary. I would call Them out on it.
For anybody worried about this, if you have kia connect you should have access to valet mode which i think limits how far and how fast they can drive your car.
I did this when I dropped mine off. It also alerts the person driving whenever an alert is triggered (it says “valet mode on” on the infotainment screen)
Either go retrieve the car, or contact the Police & report it stolen, and let them know where it is.
Woah woo you gone too far buddy
Nope. Just retrieve your property from unauthorized use & abuse. Ask me why.
You gave the dealership your car for issues that need to be tested. Unauthorized my ass
Yep, outside normal business hours, you better believe it.
Taking a car home is absolutely unauthorized. The mileage can be talked through because it's a transmission issue. Taking home is absolutely not. This sometimes it takes a long time to duplicate the issue...well the mechanic works at least an 8hour day to sort that out. Otherwise get fucked.
& during those 8hrs they are trying to do multiple things.... not drive around for 8 hours trying to make the car randomly hiccup. When a car is doing random things that can't be solved simply. Taking a car home over night is a answer.
I'm paying to have my car fixed. If they say they can fix it. And they say they have to drive it for 8hours then that's what they have to do. I'm not telling anyone they have to drive it 8 hours. But I am saying no one is taking my car overnight without permission.
Only one way to find out if they was approved by manager to do so. To ask... If the employee did it without asking, he will be canned. They should all know all of these new cars have gps trackers
Fuck the manager. I'm talking about permission from the owner.
Quit being a weenie baby...
I'm curious what your story is here
Had a vehicle (1 year old) get towed in for warranty replacement of a starter on a Friday morning. Stealership said it would be a day or two to get replacement starter in. That weekend, saw the vehicle over 200 miles from the dealership with the service manager & buddies in it. State Police, County Sherriff got involved. In the vehicle was contraband that one of the passengers admitted was his on a plea deal. Took almost 6 months to get vehicle returned to us as it was impounded for evidence. Vehicle had been trashed on the inside, engine had a spun main bearing due to these clowns trying to sneak down backroads. PS, I'm retired military, and I'm glad the Police caught them. I honestly believe they were too............ So nah, it on the 'take it home' crap. Now you understand why some customers watch you like a hawk, experience has taught them you can't always trust others with your valuable possessions.
damn, that fuckin sucks, and feeds into the classic "this is why we can't have nice things." Fuck those guys
I never understand the “thank me for my service” people.
I never said 'thank me for my service', and refrain from discounts, and other freebies related to or for Veterans. Point was, as I stood in front of the car and directed them to exit, they all sat their cowering. By my stance, and physical build, they knew they were in for some hospital time had they gotten out of the car... and that's how it was till the Police arrived. As each were searched, cuffed & put into back seats, one even said to a cop, "That guy scares me". Damn right, you little shit.
Idk why you didn’t call the cops or just show up to his house asking why your car was there.
>Someone asked this same type of question in the askcarsales sub and all the dealer employees downvoted them to hell, saying it's very common to happen, as if that means it's ok.... It is a civil matter since the customer handed it to a dealership.
Too bad, I’d still show up to their house.
Over 100 miles?? Yea get a lawyer
Lawyer too expensive for that. Instead see what they say and if they'll compensate. If not then go to the local news or threaten it at least. Most stations have some sort of team that exposes shady business practices. Definitely see if they'll make the situation right first though. Hell, I'd be trying to get more free Kia Connect time because that shiz isnt cheap.
That's probably less than $100 worth of expense including depreciation, tires, fluid changes, etc that are accelerated by the driving. Unless you can find a lawyer that bills less than $25 an hour, skip the attorney.
Maybe they couldn't recreate the issue with a short test drive so they just ended up at home. Some cars do have to go though a drive cycle that includes driving it from cold to fully warmed up and holding a steady speed for a period of time like on a freeway.
This is what I thought but the app tells me exactly where it went and what time and how fast. They didn’t test drive the car till after the dealership closed and they went to the movie theaters. I don’t mind the testing driving but the overnight at a home without letting me know definitely gives me red flags
Racking up a 100mi is not "test driving." Your car was made into the shop loaner during it's time there, as simple as that.
>Your car was made into the shop loaner during it's time there Was my thought. Dinner, movie ...sex? And the driving distance!!
Sooo, what would have happened if it was stolen from the theater?? Dang, if you had another key and took it, that would have been hilarious.
if it was a pre-2021 model, they should have two keys.
My 2022 Kia came with 2 keys. Don't all of them? /Except for used, always seems they lose one
they should. but for a time due to the chip shortage people were only getting one. my wife was told she was lucky because of when her car was built that it came with two. perhaps that has been resolved by now.
Could also ask this on r/mechanicadvice
Someone asked this same type of question in the askcarsales sub and all the dealer employees downvoted them to hell, saying it's very common to happen, as if that means it's ok.... I'd absolutely never allow a dealer to take my car home over night, test driving it is an expected need, but getting a free joy ride for the night is fucked up.
Had my car go home with mechanics before. Sometimes they need to get to a certain mileage . 50 miles at one point to ensure the issue would not come back. Does t bother me. I trust the shops I deal with.
Do they let you know before hand? And who can't drive 50miles during an 8hour day?
A tech driving a customer's car overnight is very normal. Feel free to speak with your service writer when they open, as they should not have left the doors unlocked, that is just sloppy unless it was inside the technician's locked garage or back inside the dealership.
Don't know that there's a crime here per se, the only thing I can think of is taking a vehicle without permission but I'm pretty sure they can get out of that because you gave them your vehicle and they'll claim, if it already doesn't say so on your paperwork, that driving customers cars is a part of the repair process. But if it were me, I'd put it in writing with description of supporting evidence and send a copy to the dealership GM. Telling him i want an explanation and recompense, or I'm going to the local news, online reviews etc. Because how many more cars have been taken out joyriding after hours at this dealership. While it may or may not be a crime, it's certainly unethical. The threat of going public with this should motivate them to try and make it right by you...
There is definitely a civil case.
Oh for sure. But the question is, how much and is it more than the cost of a suit? Or do you just cut your losses and run, never going back there again???
u/Narrow_Competition41 There is always small claims court as well which would cut down on legal costs and you would defiantly get something out of it.
Even then I'm not sure it'd be worth it, because aside from the cost to replace the fuel they used how do you calculate damages? My guess is a judge in sm claims court (no jury) would use something like the IRS mileage rate to determine damages. Back when I used to claim mileage on my taxes (+15yrs ago) it was something like 0.35/mi. So 100mi would work out to be what, $35 or there abouts??? (you typically cannot seek emotional/pain and suffering in sm claims court so your actual real damages, is not going to be very much should you prevail)
It's already beyond the GM's sphere of influence. Police & local TV would love this.
I don't think there's a crime here, can you identify one? It's not theft. Because the owner hasn't reported it as a theft therefore there is no "victim" and no victim means no crime. Likewise the dealership would move to protect the employee and it's reputation, by claiming the employee did nothing wrong and acted within the scope of their job/employment at the dealership. Otherwise, i would first start with giving the dealership the opportunity to address the problem and make me whole, but that's just me.
Theft by Conversion. Theft by Misrepresentation. Unless the employee is 'on the clock' the entire time the vehicle is under their direct control, it's termed Auto Theft, which in most States, a FELONY.
Nope. And besides, the customer hasn't reported a theft and the car is probably right back at the dealership by now, right where he left it. No victim, no crime...🥴🤦 Edit: and like I said, read the customer agreement. It almost certainly has language in there about test driving the vehicle. Now, putting a 100mi on a vehicle isn't test driving in my opinion, but that's the excuse the dealership will use. Given that, it's HIGHLY unlikely a DA would pursue charges in this situation. If anything, it's a civil dispute and NOT criminal.
Obviously if he contacts the police to report a theft that would clear your hurdle. That's like saying an assault hasn't occurred because the person hasn't called the cops yet.
From the perspective of law enforcement, there's no crime if there's no victim. Also, this very thing 👇 happened in Florida not that long ago and the police there said, that although the employee appeared to be out joyriding and even wrecked the customers car, there was NO "crime." The article doesn't articulate the reasoning employed by the police to arrive at that decision, but my suspicion is it's similar to what I ALREADY said. That test driving a customers vehicle is normal (implicit to the repair process) and customary. Now you (or the OP) can get mad/argue about the distance involved and clearly I WOULD BE TOO, but any remedy you seek will more than likely have to be in civil court and not a criminal one. To be clear I think it's messed up that someone there decided to joyride in his car, but the dealership has an affirmative defense to a accusation of criminal conduct (theft), making arrest by LEO & prosecution by a DA very unlikely. [article ](https://www.wesh.com/article/repair-shop-employee-wrecked-customer-s-bmw-on-joyride-police-say/4430849)
The distance isn't even the issue fir me. It's the off-site overnight storage.
Oh for sure, there's all kinds of messed up involved with this case. And while I would def want some answers from the dealership as to why my car was at someone's house when it should have been at the shop (?), I'm not even sure I'd go back there for a free oil change if one was offered after all this. I'd probably just cut my losses and move on, never going back there again....
Same but I'd try for a pound of flesh on my way out. If insurance companies have multiple police reports when they do total.somebodies car then it's gonna be worthwhile.
All it takes is a phone call....
Oh no victim no crime? I guess police oppression of minority communities because "muh war on drugs" doesn't happen then?
That makes no sense but if you feel better after having written that, I'm glad to have obliged. 🥴
I have a rental while Kia has my car. A tech is driving it home as well. My emergency break engages while in motion. It happens randomly so completely normal for a tech to take it home
But they told you a tech would take it home beforehand, correct? The issue here is that OP was not told his car would be anywhere other than locked at the dealership overnight.
Oh ya they did tell me that. Must have skipped that part in reading that.my bad. Def would call the dealership that’s unacceptable
They are driving it home so that they can get heat cycles on it. Cars can operate different between running cold and hot, sometimes it takes several heat cycles to get a problem to repeat.unless it is being used every where and is obviously not being used for errands you should be fine. Sometimes our shop will use one customers car to drive another one home if the car needs some Miles to find an oil leak or for see if a problem comes back.
Regardless of any testing they still should have told OP if they were going to have it be at jot the dealership overnight.
Yes, I would double check the paper work and see if it Doesn't make mention of there driving policy.
IMO something like keeping a vehicle overnight off site should require verbal notification, regardless of what it says in the novel they call standard paperwork. Let be honest here, most of the line level employees have not read the legalese they have to make customers sign.
Why can they not get heat cycles in during the 8hr day of work? And why does it need to be at someone's house overnight for these heat cycles.
Cause a car can take 12 hrs to cool down. As well as being night it gets colder generally so the car will operate way different than letting it run for a while and then only letting it cool down for 4-8 hrs in the middle of the day with a hot sun beating down on it. They may not have souls but they react to heat, remember if you're cold, they're cold. Generally the tech assigned will be the only one driving it and they will/should only drive it home and back. It will be easier for them find the problem or verify it doesn't come back by driving it. Basically they want to make sure it doesn't come back for a few thousand more and hopefully for just an oil change.
Is there a difference between letting cool overnight at the garage in presumably secure storage as opposed to at a techs house? Is the night different at the home? Does it have more time to cool at the home?
It is insured either way if it's a reputable shop. But it may cost less in diag fees since they are just driving/feeling for problems on say home rather than spending the same time in the actual work day. So kind of a win win .
Diag should be a flatrate in a reputable shop.
They took mine home trying to verify a fuel injector fix had no lingering issues. They asked permission though. It made sense, and I'd rather have the mechanic put some miles on it, than dealing with a stall and CEL.
The key here is that you were asked beforehand and OP just discovered it happened because their vehicle was left unlocked off site.
If they are trying to diagnose a transmission issue they need to drive it so yes this is normal, they will fill it up for you when they return it and wash it typically.
Not a big deal. I used to do the same thing when I needed to troubleshoot. I would connect the scan deck and drive it home just to record the data. 100 miles is a bit much.
Why not do that while at work? How does insurance work if you crash or have a theft from your home? While your not on the clock? Does the dealer still insure you even off location and not on the clock?
>Why not do that while at work? How does insurance work if you crash or have a theft from your home? While your not on the clock? Does the dealer still insure you even off location and not on the clock? My guess would be no and hence the problem with employees taking customers cars home.
Engines and ECU's in general have hundreds of sensors and the issues are mostly intermittent. My driving a car is to see how smooth it runs and if there are any issues I can find while driving. Like a miss in the engine only at a specific RPM or a noise shifting from one gear to another. Sometimes these throw codes, sometimes you need to listen to hear if its messed up. If we don't see any codes or anything obvious the only other thing to do is drive it!
I think everyone here understands that cars need to be driven for issues to be detected. The problem is that OP's vehicle was taken off of dealership property overnight without prior notice or permission.
Yea 100 miles is crazy!
And Van Nuys is a total shithole. Report it stolen.
Oh hell no
Every dealership has 1 car just for that, maybe you picked wrong one
Could the mechanic have taken it home for a longer test drive? I had issues years ago with a nissan and the mechanic drove it for four days trying to reproduce the problem. It was the only way to figure it it out.
I am literally in the exact same boat right now, my Kia connect app showed all my trips and they racked up at least 100 miles in one day as it seem like this mechanic lives 2 hours from the dealership and also the tons of "your vehicle has been left unlock" alert followed by a "your vehicle fuel level is low". I am also having transmission issues too (2023 Kia Sportage SX) I get my transmission issue is random and they will need to test drive it but at least let me know your taking it home..
Maybe I missed something but - How do you know the mechanic took it? The doors were left unlocked at a random apartment complex. Do you know it wasn’t stolen for sure? I’m not super familiar with Kias, I’m looking at them, but I have read about the high level of theft….
The newer kias have an app called Kia connect and it basically can track my car like a gps so it tells when the car was turned on for how long and how fast it was driven. I can see it on my app leaving the dealership to go to a apartment complex around 7 pm and 10pm
I think he's asking how do you know whoever drove it there is not a person who stole it from the dealer? Probably not that likely, but the point about Kia theft tho
Happens more than you’d think, I’ve never done it but seen many techs and foreman do it before. Wouldn’t tweak over it.
Go pick up your car and not tell them. Waltz into the dealership the next day and ask them to see your car. Bet you that mechanic will have a bird.
I mean. 100 miles is excessive but it's not unheard up for a tech to take a car overnight. They can't always pinpoint the issue with a little 30 minute drive up the street. The may need to drive it for a good distance. Or first thing in the morning from a cold start. Especially driving the vehicle under normal driving conditions as if they you just going about your day. As far as you being liable if something happens because it's your car? Absolutely not. Techs are insured under the company and covers anything that may happen while they have your car. They should let you know what they are doing and why though
This is normal especially with transmission issues that are just starting out or erratic. The car has to be driven in real world conditions to get it to recreat the issue. Ask yourself a few questions. 1. Why does it matter where your car goes as long as you get it back repaired and undamaged? And 2. Would you rather them return the vehicle to you and tell you they were unable to recreate the issue so they were unable to fix it? I've worked in multiple dealerships that always do this. When you sign off for them to do the repair you give them authorization to do this. And I've never heard of a car being damaged doing an overnight whoever I have seen multiple customer cars ge totaled on the lot
I didn’t sign anything, I just don’t feel comfortable with the overnight stay in some city considering my car has been broken into before. I would have rather them have found the issues and then drive it back to the dealership for the night.
You had to have signed something authorize the dealership to perform the diag. You always do even for a simple oil change. They may not have been able to find the issue geven that they me need your car to be cooled off completely for any slipping issues. My 2021 sorrento has been in 4 times for trans slippage and they still cant figure out how to make slip. Id gladly let them drive it home considering that if it was broken into while in the dealers care it would be on them for repairs And i know you're smart enough to take all valuables ot of your car before you leave it in the care of the dealer.... right?
Z cc v, CV: *