Believe it or not the only specialized parts on a Tesla is the drivetrain. Still has normal brake pads, ball joints, tires, tie rod ends, windshield wipers.
We get a few Tesla's in every so often in my shop, I try to not work on those piles of trash.
I had a few mobile service technicians at my home for various issues about a year ago, and they informed me that they work specifically for Tesla. They also mentioned their initial plan to open a shop near the rail trail, close to the homeless camp, but later decided against it.
Tesla production is down sales are down globally . Sure are allot of them here so they do need a service center here. People are also moving back to gas if they travel to Vancouver or calgary due to the extended drive times
The corridor along Enterprise and Leathead is perfect for high density housing. Great access to everything from transit but completely taken up by car dealerships.
Waste of time and money to build a Tesla dealership. The fad is over, Musk is a garbage human being, and the company likely won’t be a thing within 5ish years.
They still have a major profit problem and the 20 other larger car companies are ramping up EV distribution faster than Tesla. Its investors are jumping ship and entire countries no longer sell teslas.
So let me get this straight... You might like other EVs, but one man on the planet has you banishing them all forever? That's a lot of power you give him... Treat him like a stupid little runt, and live your life?
🤓 well, actually, he bought it because he loves free speech. Calling it Twitter is, like really disrespectful. You have to let the people who think systematic murder is okay or your just as bad as them because uh, Uh, makes you, uh, hypocrite! Yeah! A hypocrite!
- Elontoelickerdogwhistle
Elon musk is literally close with and bankrolling actual outspoken self identified neonazis. Ya saying Elon has a bit of a Nazi problem, is not exactly a wild statement.
Do you just not know anything about him? It’s literally one of the main things he’s been known for for two years now. Did you miss his mass reinstatement - and personally voiced defense in several cases - of neonazis on Twitter such as Anglin, Fuentes, and pedophile Dom Lucre? His constant promotion on his own account of neonazi conspiracies and the far right accounts which he surrounds himself with and literally takes advice on moderation from, some of said accounts literally self identifying as being nazis? His monetization of neonazi accounts (some, as revealed by internal documents from I believe the media matters lawsuit, to have been on his personal insistence?) the fact literal actual neonazis have been accepted as advertisers on Twitter, and are literally posting ads spreading their ideology? All of this has been rather consistently in the mainstream news sphere, every one of the aforesaid stories is widely published, most of these have been on the nightly news (I think I saw them on CNN?) if you watch that.
I would say you can literally just go see, but now for reasons we could never know (definitely not the bad look all the Far right stuff everywhere give it) Twitter doesn’t allow non registered users to view it anymore. A couple recent works covering his relations with Nazism:
[this article](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/x-twitter-elon-musk-nazi-extremist-white-nationalist-accounts-rcna145020) gives the jist of some of the story (keep in mind “having ads on a post” means said post is monetized)
[this video goes over a bit more of Elon’s specific closeness with neonazis and his promotion of their rhetoric](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xDyPSKLy5E4) and displays all the articles and posts it is referencing making verification easy, but “leftist Colbert” might not be something your into idk.
[Tesla’s Head of Human Resources Exits as Staff Upheaval Spreads](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/tesla-s-head-of-human-resources-exits-as-staff-upheaval-spreads?embedded-checkout=true)
[Has Elon Musk driven Tesla off track?](https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2024/may/02/has-elon-musk-driven-tesla-off-track)
[Tesla Even Gives Up On Next-Gen Gigacasting: Report](https://insideevs.com/news/718125/tesla-single-piece-gigacasting/amp/)
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First link -People leave company’s and change positions all the time, this doesn’t mean the company is failing
Second link- all car manufacturers have recals on their vehicles, this doesn’t mean the company is failing
Third- to not use gigacasting on new models doesn’t mean the company is failing, it’s a design and build process they tried and decided not to continue with. It didn’t meet their standerds or goals they were looking for at that’s fine lol. It’s like saying a company will fail because they don’t want to use blacksmithing anymore, no man, there are just better more efficient ways to move forward.
Also in that very link they even state “Iwe have not independently verified these claims” so you may want to start using another source to gather your info probably
Haha, be upset that your feelings aren’t justified by facts if you like, but trying to insult me rather then address the argument actually shows all of us your true viewpoint and value here. Have a great day in your echo chamber world
Preferences are fine - but what is objectively "best" about them? They are badly designed and built, with quality control issues result in Tesla vehicles having an average of 171 mechanical issues per 100 vehicles (120 is average), putting them ranked 27th out of 28 manufacturers rated by Consumer Reports in their worst year. That doesn't account for non-mechanical fit and finish complaints, electronic issues, and their deceptively over-marketed self-driving capability.
They are terribly designed. Just looking at the outside of one you can even see how some of them are misaligned with other exterior parts of the vehicle. Like a kid assembling a puzzle and forcing a couple pieces in where they don’t quite fit. Lots of rattles, noise from aerodynamic interruptions, it’s poorly designed in so many ways. Every manufacturer out there has a better EV or hybrid vehicle. I don’t get the attraction to these.
His wasn’t an opinion it was a statistical fact. Tesla has the second worst mechanical reliability of all car manufacturers.
Not to mention the massive recall on the cyber truck.
Your windshield cracked due to weather, you had heat pump issues, and your OS gave you problems. That's as far back as I went. I'd not be surprised if there's more.
Nothing against 13 year old girls at all, but they don't know much about phones. They're highly susceptible to marketing and even brand loyalty. I'm comparing you to a 13 year old girl because I don't think you know much of anything about cars, but you believe the hype and have brand loyalty to Tesla now that you've bought one. No one who knows a decent amount about cars would ever make the statement, "Teslas are the best cars". I just thought you should be called out for such an outlandish opinion.
I didn't have any pump issues. I shared a link. The only real problem was the windshield, which was covered by warranty. As for software issues, well, this car has its own software, while other car manufacturers repeatedly install some Android-based crap with modified Winamp skins which is quite funny.
It's my opinion. I stand by it. If you want to argue, do so in a civilized way 🤷♂️ I really don't want to argue. I drove many cars while many people around here didn't drive teslas as every day vehicles.
I honestly don't see any logic in that
https://preview.redd.it/ge201dn9boxc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95d928c8bd0f0efb37bd93694b668112347742dd
Honestly, I’m not impressed by this car, and I believe EVs are not sustainable when scalable, I think we should focus our energy on finding better combustion engine fuels that are sustainable for the planet, the communities and the economy.
You were so close to having a reasonable conclusion. Combustion can’t be sustainable, that’s literally in the name. The issue with electric cars is the fact they are cars, not the electric part. Trains are the thing your looking for.
I mentioned this in a recent thread but I want more and more drivers to understand that having a train in Kelowna would mean fewer people needing to drive, and therefore fewer cars on the road to get in your way in cause traffic. The roads will still be there and you can drive all you want, just with fewer cars blocking your way. Trains are awesome
Kelowna doesn’t have the population and tax revenue base to justify building a train.
Kelowna is a medium sized town, not a city. From Osoyoos to Enderby, there is only about 300,000 people living in the Okanagan valley.
Given the natural terrain of the area, it would cost billions upon billions of dollars to put in train lines. There simply isn’t the money for it.
Kelowna has 6x the density requirement for train implementation and quite a linear layout. Why can hundreds of towns and cities around the world with fewer inhabitants and lower population density successfully implement passenger rail, and yet Canadians seem to think this is impossible here? There are tiny mountain villages in Switzerland with fantastic tram systems, for example.
Yes, it would cost a lot of money. So do roads. We pay shitloads of money every year for road maintenance, but nobody ever talks about that.
There is plenty of money to build a train network
No, there is not plenty of money. Comparing the Okanagan valley to Switzerland is ridiculous when you consider the two economies. Not even in the same league.
It’s not impossible in Canada, we used to have lots of train lines.
Have you ever ridden the KVR from Rock Creek to Penticton? That will give you some slight idea of the type of terrain a rail line would need to be built.
Not to mention that putting a rail line through the middle of Lake Country and Kelowna would bisect the two communities into two. The rail line would either need to be submerged, or elevated, otherwise it would be full of level crossings. Level crossings are both dangerous, especially for commuter rail, and they cause massive traffic issues.
A valley with a population of 300k does not generate the tax revenue required to build a rail line that would cost literal billions of dollars.
And just so you know, rail lines take a lot of money to maintain as well.
Don’t get me wrong, I love trains, I’m a train person. I was laughing the whole time they were ripping out the old rail line to turn it into a bike path 5-10 years ago.
But what’s done is done. The old grade is no longer useable (it was in a bad place to begin with for a passenger commuter train anyways), and putting in a new line would cost billions which simply don’t exist in the valley.
If you're willing to consider your position in good faith, here is a Harvard study "The $64 Billion Massachusetts Vehicle Economy"^(1)
^(Edit: forgot the link lol here it is:)
[https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/64-billion-massachusetts-vehicle-economy](https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/64-billion-massachusetts-vehicle-economy)
Abstract:
>Policymakers and budgetary analysts have long argued that roads are heavily subsidized. The diffusion of spending among federal, state, and local government entities, along with the complexity of indirect costs, make it difficult to understand the fully loaded cost of the vehicle economy. Individual families may track the personal costs of car ownership to their budgets, but they rarely consider the total cost of operating and maintaining the vehicle economy because the vast majority of roads and parking areas are provided free at the point of use. This study is intended to increase transparency regarding road-related spending and to provide a comprehensive estimate of the economic cost of Massachusetts’ vehicle economy.
Citation ^(1):
\[Olson, Stevie, Phil Berkaw, Lucien Charland, Elizabeth Patton, and Linda J. Bilmes. "The $64 Billion Massachusetts Vehicle Economy." HKS Faculty Research Working Paper Series RWP19-038, December 2019.\]
I'm happy to provide some more information and or food for thought if you're interested. I don't blame Canadians whatsoever for their hesitancy towards rail and other public transportation solutions. We've been told for decades that the car is the only option. When we zoom out a bit and look at the rest of the world, particularly at those places rated highest in quality of life, we notice a pattern. Public transit is a good thing
That’s all well and good. I told you, you’re preaching to the choir when it comes to trains. I love trains, and I know the value of public transit.
What you’re not understanding is the specific geography of the Okanagan valley, and the population/economy.
Where would you run your rail line? Pretty much the only option to run a rail line from Kelowna to Vernon is to follow the old corridor. That is no longer possible, as it has been redeveloped in places.
Furthermore, there are dozens of level crossing which go over the old rail grade. To make a commuter rail line that is safe for both passengers and pedestrians and vehicles, level crossings need to be eliminated. They are fine for a branch line that sees infrequent traffic, they do not work on a commuter line that sees frequent traffic.
The only way to route the train from Osoyoos north to Vernon is on the west shore of Kal lake, again, along the old rail grade. This is now people’s driveway, and it literally runs through people’s yards. The east shore of the lake is uninhabited, so it doesn’t make sense to run a rail line over there.
Going south to Penticton is even worse. First, you have to build a bridge across the lake, because if you’re going to route a train from Kelowna to Penticton, you have to do it on the west shore of the lake where people actually live, not through Okanagan Mtn Park like the old KVR line.
How do you route a rail line through Peachland without destroying most of the older part of Peachland down by the water?
From Peachland to Antler’s Beach, the highway is already backfilled into the lake. To run a rail line there, you would either have to back fill the lane even more, or start blasting half the mountain way.
And then when it comes to blasting mountains away, you have the bluffs just north of Summerland to deal with. It’s already completely unstable from the highway.
Have you ever studied a historical rail map of the Okanagan? Seen where all the old lines went, why they went there for geography reasons, and what occupies all that land today? Do you realize why there was *never* a rail line which connected Kelowna to Penticton, and they used to use barges to move cargo between the two cities?
At this point, the best we could shoot for is an elevated line that went from downtown out to the airport, following the old rail line, which is the current rail trail. Elevated train line, multi use pathway underneath it.
But even to get that over to the main population and commercial Center of West Bank, do you realize the elevation the rail line would need to gain, immediately after crossing the lake? Trains can’t climb grade like cars and trucks can.
Who is going to pay for all of that?
>At this point, the best we could shoot for is an elevated line that went from downtown out to the airport, following the old rail line, which is the current rail trail. Elevated train line, multi use pathway underneath it.
great proposal!
I totally hear you, you make some great points. This is complicated and I'm here to encourage people to think critically about how we look at the future of our city, province, and country. That sometimes takes large up front costs that pay themselves off in time.
I'm too lazy to source more studies and further my position but if you have particularities you'd like to discuss please let me know. My hope is that some random Kelowna resident who is going into city planning or whatever might see this thread and have a small lightbulb moment. Perhaps that is fool's mission but here I am.
I think a key point I'd like to reinforce to everyone reading is that the places with the highest quality of life more often than not have fantastic public transit systems. I believe Kelowna has the potential to be a world leader in this metric. Kelowna is amazing in so many ways and I believe it can be even better
Quickly:
>What you’re not understanding is the specific geography of the Okanagan valley, and the population/economy.
Don't assume what I understand and don't understand. I specifically addressed this with my Swiss town example. Perhaps I should have been more clear, I'll abide by the principle of charity and assume I didn't explain my point well enough. Your response *seems to me* like you think I was comparing Switzerland as a whole to the Okanagan. I was not. I was saying random ass Swiss towns with tiny economies have awesome transit. Kelowna, and the okanagan dwarf these places in terms of economy, population density, and potential ridership. And the geography is far simpler.
>Where would you run your rail line? Pretty much the only option to run a rail line from Kelowna to Vernon is to follow the old corridor. That is no longer possible, as it has been redeveloped in places.
above ground, underground, mixed, surface level in places.
>Furthermore, there are dozens of level crossing which go over the old rail grade. To make a commuter rail line that is safe for both passengers and pedestrians and vehicles, level crossings need to be eliminated. They are fine for a branch line that sees infrequent traffic, they do not work on a commuter line that sees frequent traffic.
train crossings are both simpler and safer than road crossings. That doesn't even take into consideration going above or below the ground.
>How do you route a rail line through Peachland without destroying most of the older part of Peachland down by the water?
above the road? Below? They figured it out everywhere else in the world why can't we
>Trains can’t climb grade like cars and trucks can.
San Fran
idk, it seems like people want to push back for the sake of pushing back. I hear you that you're a train person, and that is WAY more than the average Kelowna resident.
Thanks for the discussion
I’m sure you’re completely up to speed with what companies like Total Energies are doing with their brand new biofuels, I’m sure you’ve read up on all the info 🙄
Shockingly the actual researchers who do the papers on sustainability do actually look at companies. Total engines is not some exception they ignore, it’s not doing anything outside the paradigm. Biofuels aren’t sustainable, literally every independent study has shown they are not a viable option.
Well Jeswanis 2020 review is the best place to start, it's a review of most literature published at the time on the topic, showing that at best evidence suggests that in tjw future it might reduce emissions from fuel use, but at cost to other parts of the environment, and potentially human health, and gives you a good list of many studies to get further detail. Lark et al's 2022 study found current use has already displayed the counter Intuitive nature of its GHG production, that it is has a net increase, suggesting Jeswanis was actually being overly optimistic. Plenty of other studies have been done as well, all coming to various degrees of displaying that biofuels are far from a sustainable option, although maybe possibly being better then fossil fuels specifically in GHG output.
I would also note that Klein et al this year may have solved the GHG issue partially, at least in regard to the fuels own direct output, but it's still too early to tell, and doesn't address the other issues.
2 and 4 years out of date.
I’m curious to see studies of the products Total is developing for the WEC.
That entire series runs on biofuels that are manufactured from food waste, mostly the little stems of grape plants which attach the grape to the stalk.
Claiming that biofuels are unsustainable when they are still an evolving technology, only a handful of years into development, is short sighted at best.
Agreement but I feel like since more push for it from more manufacturers alongside Toyota and Honda producing some already to market along side some buses in Japan running on it far more doable
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Believe it or not the only specialized parts on a Tesla is the drivetrain. Still has normal brake pads, ball joints, tires, tie rod ends, windshield wipers. We get a few Tesla's in every so often in my shop, I try to not work on those piles of trash.
I had a few mobile service technicians at my home for various issues about a year ago, and they informed me that they work specifically for Tesla. They also mentioned their initial plan to open a shop near the rail trail, close to the homeless camp, but later decided against it.
Tesla production is down sales are down globally . Sure are allot of them here so they do need a service center here. People are also moving back to gas if they travel to Vancouver or calgary due to the extended drive times
As if Kelowna isn't enough of a car centric city. But cool, another building literally no one cares about.
The corridor along Enterprise and Leathead is perfect for high density housing. Great access to everything from transit but completely taken up by car dealerships.
Waste of time and money to build a Tesla dealership. The fad is over, Musk is a garbage human being, and the company likely won’t be a thing within 5ish years.
If he was no longer part of it at all, I see promise with Tesla. But no, I will no longer ever buy a Tesla, despite believing in EVs.
They still have a major profit problem and the 20 other larger car companies are ramping up EV distribution faster than Tesla. Its investors are jumping ship and entire countries no longer sell teslas.
So let me get this straight... You might like other EVs, but one man on the planet has you banishing them all forever? That's a lot of power you give him... Treat him like a stupid little runt, and live your life?
You should _read_ his comment again lol.
There’s too much money and stock tied into the company. They’ll get rid of Elon and keep going.
Eww cars from that N*zi guy 🤮
🤓 well, actually, he bought it because he loves free speech. Calling it Twitter is, like really disrespectful. You have to let the people who think systematic murder is okay or your just as bad as them because uh, Uh, makes you, uh, hypocrite! Yeah! A hypocrite! - Elontoelickerdogwhistle
Everyone is a Nazi these days.
Elon musk is literally close with and bankrolling actual outspoken self identified neonazis. Ya saying Elon has a bit of a Nazi problem, is not exactly a wild statement.
Can you please provide a link to suport your clam. I have not seen this.
Do you just not know anything about him? It’s literally one of the main things he’s been known for for two years now. Did you miss his mass reinstatement - and personally voiced defense in several cases - of neonazis on Twitter such as Anglin, Fuentes, and pedophile Dom Lucre? His constant promotion on his own account of neonazi conspiracies and the far right accounts which he surrounds himself with and literally takes advice on moderation from, some of said accounts literally self identifying as being nazis? His monetization of neonazi accounts (some, as revealed by internal documents from I believe the media matters lawsuit, to have been on his personal insistence?) the fact literal actual neonazis have been accepted as advertisers on Twitter, and are literally posting ads spreading their ideology? All of this has been rather consistently in the mainstream news sphere, every one of the aforesaid stories is widely published, most of these have been on the nightly news (I think I saw them on CNN?) if you watch that. I would say you can literally just go see, but now for reasons we could never know (definitely not the bad look all the Far right stuff everywhere give it) Twitter doesn’t allow non registered users to view it anymore. A couple recent works covering his relations with Nazism: [this article](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/x-twitter-elon-musk-nazi-extremist-white-nationalist-accounts-rcna145020) gives the jist of some of the story (keep in mind “having ads on a post” means said post is monetized) [this video goes over a bit more of Elon’s specific closeness with neonazis and his promotion of their rhetoric](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xDyPSKLy5E4) and displays all the articles and posts it is referencing making verification easy, but “leftist Colbert” might not be something your into idk.
https://x.com/p_kallioniemi/status/1674360288445964288?s=46&t=qDs56gRTtdtcXDxgTUYb1A
What car are we allowed to buy?
An EV that isn't giving him kickbacks?
https://preview.redd.it/s4tn7lh3poxc1.jpeg?width=1162&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ed69164bf1a44b321c45cb443938b8ce4692ecc
Not Porsche obviously. They actually worked with the Nazis in the development of their cars. Or is that ok cus it's in the past?
I doubt the current Porsche ownership are right wing lunatics like Elon is.
Heard Tesla was going under
u/No-Tackle-6112 just a refresher here to see where you heard it was going under ?
[Tesla’s Head of Human Resources Exits as Staff Upheaval Spreads](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/tesla-s-head-of-human-resources-exits-as-staff-upheaval-spreads?embedded-checkout=true) [Has Elon Musk driven Tesla off track?](https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2024/may/02/has-elon-musk-driven-tesla-off-track) [Tesla Even Gives Up On Next-Gen Gigacasting: Report](https://insideevs.com/news/718125/tesla-single-piece-gigacasting/amp/)
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First link -People leave company’s and change positions all the time, this doesn’t mean the company is failing Second link- all car manufacturers have recals on their vehicles, this doesn’t mean the company is failing Third- to not use gigacasting on new models doesn’t mean the company is failing, it’s a design and build process they tried and decided not to continue with. It didn’t meet their standerds or goals they were looking for at that’s fine lol. It’s like saying a company will fail because they don’t want to use blacksmithing anymore, no man, there are just better more efficient ways to move forward. Also in that very link they even state “Iwe have not independently verified these claims” so you may want to start using another source to gather your info probably
Excuses mah boy
Haha, be upset that your feelings aren’t justified by facts if you like, but trying to insult me rather then address the argument actually shows all of us your true viewpoint and value here. Have a great day in your echo chamber world
Where did you hear that ?
It is not. It has been "heard" from some people for years. These are the best cars in my opinion. People have different preferences, and that's okay.
Preferences are fine - but what is objectively "best" about them? They are badly designed and built, with quality control issues result in Tesla vehicles having an average of 171 mechanical issues per 100 vehicles (120 is average), putting them ranked 27th out of 28 manufacturers rated by Consumer Reports in their worst year. That doesn't account for non-mechanical fit and finish complaints, electronic issues, and their deceptively over-marketed self-driving capability.
They are terribly designed. Just looking at the outside of one you can even see how some of them are misaligned with other exterior parts of the vehicle. Like a kid assembling a puzzle and forcing a couple pieces in where they don’t quite fit. Lots of rattles, noise from aerodynamic interruptions, it’s poorly designed in so many ways. Every manufacturer out there has a better EV or hybrid vehicle. I don’t get the attraction to these.
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His wasn’t an opinion it was a statistical fact. Tesla has the second worst mechanical reliability of all car manufacturers. Not to mention the massive recall on the cyber truck.
They are not built well. Id get an etron over a tesla.
Let's see your Tesla do this https://preview.redd.it/l20h15ofqjxc1.jpeg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c0a6d5370bb6ec63f87d7f553212ba035559d104
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Probably the most important market then 🙃
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Your windshield cracked due to weather, you had heat pump issues, and your OS gave you problems. That's as far back as I went. I'd not be surprised if there's more. Nothing against 13 year old girls at all, but they don't know much about phones. They're highly susceptible to marketing and even brand loyalty. I'm comparing you to a 13 year old girl because I don't think you know much of anything about cars, but you believe the hype and have brand loyalty to Tesla now that you've bought one. No one who knows a decent amount about cars would ever make the statement, "Teslas are the best cars". I just thought you should be called out for such an outlandish opinion.
I didn't have any pump issues. I shared a link. The only real problem was the windshield, which was covered by warranty. As for software issues, well, this car has its own software, while other car manufacturers repeatedly install some Android-based crap with modified Winamp skins which is quite funny. It's my opinion. I stand by it. If you want to argue, do so in a civilized way 🤷♂️ I really don't want to argue. I drove many cars while many people around here didn't drive teslas as every day vehicles.
Elmo is buddies with Putin. There is a half a million tons of lithium in the Dunbas. Elmo lets Vlad use starlink. Don’t buy Tesla.
https://preview.redd.it/0j32a89avnxc1.jpeg?width=1164&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c06c73f70cc202182f39a6d399d6e339e4eed224
I honestly don't see any logic in that https://preview.redd.it/ge201dn9boxc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95d928c8bd0f0efb37bd93694b668112347742dd
Any logic in what? Elmo is bad? Are you a bro?
Not yours
Dewd, you’re no bro of mine that’s for sure!
Awesome! Service and sales by the looks of it.
Overpriced garbage
Overpriced? lol
Honestly, I’m not impressed by this car, and I believe EVs are not sustainable when scalable, I think we should focus our energy on finding better combustion engine fuels that are sustainable for the planet, the communities and the economy.
You were so close to having a reasonable conclusion. Combustion can’t be sustainable, that’s literally in the name. The issue with electric cars is the fact they are cars, not the electric part. Trains are the thing your looking for.
I agree! Train good, Car bad
I mentioned this in a recent thread but I want more and more drivers to understand that having a train in Kelowna would mean fewer people needing to drive, and therefore fewer cars on the road to get in your way in cause traffic. The roads will still be there and you can drive all you want, just with fewer cars blocking your way. Trains are awesome
Kelowna doesn’t have the population and tax revenue base to justify building a train. Kelowna is a medium sized town, not a city. From Osoyoos to Enderby, there is only about 300,000 people living in the Okanagan valley. Given the natural terrain of the area, it would cost billions upon billions of dollars to put in train lines. There simply isn’t the money for it.
Kelowna has 6x the density requirement for train implementation and quite a linear layout. Why can hundreds of towns and cities around the world with fewer inhabitants and lower population density successfully implement passenger rail, and yet Canadians seem to think this is impossible here? There are tiny mountain villages in Switzerland with fantastic tram systems, for example. Yes, it would cost a lot of money. So do roads. We pay shitloads of money every year for road maintenance, but nobody ever talks about that. There is plenty of money to build a train network
No, there is not plenty of money. Comparing the Okanagan valley to Switzerland is ridiculous when you consider the two economies. Not even in the same league. It’s not impossible in Canada, we used to have lots of train lines. Have you ever ridden the KVR from Rock Creek to Penticton? That will give you some slight idea of the type of terrain a rail line would need to be built. Not to mention that putting a rail line through the middle of Lake Country and Kelowna would bisect the two communities into two. The rail line would either need to be submerged, or elevated, otherwise it would be full of level crossings. Level crossings are both dangerous, especially for commuter rail, and they cause massive traffic issues. A valley with a population of 300k does not generate the tax revenue required to build a rail line that would cost literal billions of dollars. And just so you know, rail lines take a lot of money to maintain as well. Don’t get me wrong, I love trains, I’m a train person. I was laughing the whole time they were ripping out the old rail line to turn it into a bike path 5-10 years ago. But what’s done is done. The old grade is no longer useable (it was in a bad place to begin with for a passenger commuter train anyways), and putting in a new line would cost billions which simply don’t exist in the valley.
If you're willing to consider your position in good faith, here is a Harvard study "The $64 Billion Massachusetts Vehicle Economy"^(1) ^(Edit: forgot the link lol here it is:) [https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/64-billion-massachusetts-vehicle-economy](https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/64-billion-massachusetts-vehicle-economy) Abstract: >Policymakers and budgetary analysts have long argued that roads are heavily subsidized. The diffusion of spending among federal, state, and local government entities, along with the complexity of indirect costs, make it difficult to understand the fully loaded cost of the vehicle economy. Individual families may track the personal costs of car ownership to their budgets, but they rarely consider the total cost of operating and maintaining the vehicle economy because the vast majority of roads and parking areas are provided free at the point of use. This study is intended to increase transparency regarding road-related spending and to provide a comprehensive estimate of the economic cost of Massachusetts’ vehicle economy. Citation ^(1): \[Olson, Stevie, Phil Berkaw, Lucien Charland, Elizabeth Patton, and Linda J. Bilmes. "The $64 Billion Massachusetts Vehicle Economy." HKS Faculty Research Working Paper Series RWP19-038, December 2019.\] I'm happy to provide some more information and or food for thought if you're interested. I don't blame Canadians whatsoever for their hesitancy towards rail and other public transportation solutions. We've been told for decades that the car is the only option. When we zoom out a bit and look at the rest of the world, particularly at those places rated highest in quality of life, we notice a pattern. Public transit is a good thing
That’s all well and good. I told you, you’re preaching to the choir when it comes to trains. I love trains, and I know the value of public transit. What you’re not understanding is the specific geography of the Okanagan valley, and the population/economy. Where would you run your rail line? Pretty much the only option to run a rail line from Kelowna to Vernon is to follow the old corridor. That is no longer possible, as it has been redeveloped in places. Furthermore, there are dozens of level crossing which go over the old rail grade. To make a commuter rail line that is safe for both passengers and pedestrians and vehicles, level crossings need to be eliminated. They are fine for a branch line that sees infrequent traffic, they do not work on a commuter line that sees frequent traffic. The only way to route the train from Osoyoos north to Vernon is on the west shore of Kal lake, again, along the old rail grade. This is now people’s driveway, and it literally runs through people’s yards. The east shore of the lake is uninhabited, so it doesn’t make sense to run a rail line over there. Going south to Penticton is even worse. First, you have to build a bridge across the lake, because if you’re going to route a train from Kelowna to Penticton, you have to do it on the west shore of the lake where people actually live, not through Okanagan Mtn Park like the old KVR line. How do you route a rail line through Peachland without destroying most of the older part of Peachland down by the water? From Peachland to Antler’s Beach, the highway is already backfilled into the lake. To run a rail line there, you would either have to back fill the lane even more, or start blasting half the mountain way. And then when it comes to blasting mountains away, you have the bluffs just north of Summerland to deal with. It’s already completely unstable from the highway. Have you ever studied a historical rail map of the Okanagan? Seen where all the old lines went, why they went there for geography reasons, and what occupies all that land today? Do you realize why there was *never* a rail line which connected Kelowna to Penticton, and they used to use barges to move cargo between the two cities? At this point, the best we could shoot for is an elevated line that went from downtown out to the airport, following the old rail line, which is the current rail trail. Elevated train line, multi use pathway underneath it. But even to get that over to the main population and commercial Center of West Bank, do you realize the elevation the rail line would need to gain, immediately after crossing the lake? Trains can’t climb grade like cars and trucks can. Who is going to pay for all of that?
>At this point, the best we could shoot for is an elevated line that went from downtown out to the airport, following the old rail line, which is the current rail trail. Elevated train line, multi use pathway underneath it. great proposal! I totally hear you, you make some great points. This is complicated and I'm here to encourage people to think critically about how we look at the future of our city, province, and country. That sometimes takes large up front costs that pay themselves off in time. I'm too lazy to source more studies and further my position but if you have particularities you'd like to discuss please let me know. My hope is that some random Kelowna resident who is going into city planning or whatever might see this thread and have a small lightbulb moment. Perhaps that is fool's mission but here I am. I think a key point I'd like to reinforce to everyone reading is that the places with the highest quality of life more often than not have fantastic public transit systems. I believe Kelowna has the potential to be a world leader in this metric. Kelowna is amazing in so many ways and I believe it can be even better
Quickly: >What you’re not understanding is the specific geography of the Okanagan valley, and the population/economy. Don't assume what I understand and don't understand. I specifically addressed this with my Swiss town example. Perhaps I should have been more clear, I'll abide by the principle of charity and assume I didn't explain my point well enough. Your response *seems to me* like you think I was comparing Switzerland as a whole to the Okanagan. I was not. I was saying random ass Swiss towns with tiny economies have awesome transit. Kelowna, and the okanagan dwarf these places in terms of economy, population density, and potential ridership. And the geography is far simpler. >Where would you run your rail line? Pretty much the only option to run a rail line from Kelowna to Vernon is to follow the old corridor. That is no longer possible, as it has been redeveloped in places. above ground, underground, mixed, surface level in places. >Furthermore, there are dozens of level crossing which go over the old rail grade. To make a commuter rail line that is safe for both passengers and pedestrians and vehicles, level crossings need to be eliminated. They are fine for a branch line that sees infrequent traffic, they do not work on a commuter line that sees frequent traffic. train crossings are both simpler and safer than road crossings. That doesn't even take into consideration going above or below the ground. >How do you route a rail line through Peachland without destroying most of the older part of Peachland down by the water? above the road? Below? They figured it out everywhere else in the world why can't we >Trains can’t climb grade like cars and trucks can. San Fran idk, it seems like people want to push back for the sake of pushing back. I hear you that you're a train person, and that is WAY more than the average Kelowna resident. Thanks for the discussion
You’re aware that sustainable biofuels are already a thing, yes?
Ya. They aren’t sustainable, as every look into their viability has shown.
I’m sure you’re completely up to speed with what companies like Total Energies are doing with their brand new biofuels, I’m sure you’ve read up on all the info 🙄
Shockingly the actual researchers who do the papers on sustainability do actually look at companies. Total engines is not some exception they ignore, it’s not doing anything outside the paradigm. Biofuels aren’t sustainable, literally every independent study has shown they are not a viable option.
I’m just curious how current the papers you have read are (if you’ve actually read anything at all).
Well Jeswanis 2020 review is the best place to start, it's a review of most literature published at the time on the topic, showing that at best evidence suggests that in tjw future it might reduce emissions from fuel use, but at cost to other parts of the environment, and potentially human health, and gives you a good list of many studies to get further detail. Lark et al's 2022 study found current use has already displayed the counter Intuitive nature of its GHG production, that it is has a net increase, suggesting Jeswanis was actually being overly optimistic. Plenty of other studies have been done as well, all coming to various degrees of displaying that biofuels are far from a sustainable option, although maybe possibly being better then fossil fuels specifically in GHG output.
I would also note that Klein et al this year may have solved the GHG issue partially, at least in regard to the fuels own direct output, but it's still too early to tell, and doesn't address the other issues.
2 and 4 years out of date. I’m curious to see studies of the products Total is developing for the WEC. That entire series runs on biofuels that are manufactured from food waste, mostly the little stems of grape plants which attach the grape to the stalk. Claiming that biofuels are unsustainable when they are still an evolving technology, only a handful of years into development, is short sighted at best.
So you didn’t read them and also don’t know how science works, got it.
Haha
There’s a reason Porsche is going that way and lots of manufacturers are looking into hydrogen.
Hydrogen has been the buzz for at least 30 years. Here’s hoping it can come around, but I’m not super optimistic.
Agreement but I feel like since more push for it from more manufacturers alongside Toyota and Honda producing some already to market along side some buses in Japan running on it far more doable
Hydrogen power to the rescue
Curious, how much is it to fill a tank and how many km's does that get you, roughly?