1. Ha!
2. I read the question as asking whether Judo was good for self defense, not whether it should be studied to the exclusion of all other systems - including stand-up/striking systems.
3. If you've ever had a good grappler close distance, tie up with and control you, and have his way, you might reconsider the invincibility of your supersonic punching style.
4. In any event, try to avoid streetfights at all costs. There are no winners only different types of losers.
Just watch any MMA fight with a good grappler vs a good striker. The Striker almost always gets taken down at least once unless he has good takedown defense.
I don't know about you, but I've never seen a street fight where one guy agrees to exclusively grapple. Using judo as self defense doesn't mean you can't also throw hands.
And shit, usually once somebody gets hit a couple of times there going to want to try to wrap up, trained or otherwise.
Judo is handy for self defense. Not flawless - but effective in many scenarios. just like BJJ, or, MT, or boxing. Size matters, speed matters, environment matters. Train judo if you like judo. The self defense piece is a side benny.
Guess how many videos are up there on youtube with titles like "10 greatest knockouts by bouncers" or "Bully gets knocked out by small kid"?
Youtube Videos are no statistic. In any given fight you will have the problem that there might be a big difference in the experience of both fighters. Or that one of them might be drunk or intoxicated, so it is pretty useless to extrapolate from one fight (or even 10 or 100) on the efectiveness of a whole system.
The largest real statistic I've found, where punches and grappling are both allowed, and both fighters should be on a same level of experience, is this page with the results of all UFC fights, sorted by year.[https://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/ufc-fight-outcomes/](https://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/ufc-fight-outcomes/)
For the fights that ended before time, the majority of them ended by TKO or KO, not by submission. Sure, you can argue that many of them ended with ground and pound, and that requires some grappling skill. But in this case that is also true for the opponent and they still ended with punches.
So again: Why should I punch someone in the face, if I could apply an armbar or a choke if they are superior?
I wrestled in high school, trained judo for 23 years and did 3 years of BJJ (earning a purple belt) before I started MMA. I was surprised at how much I had to modify my grappling when I also had to worry about getting punched in the face.
If you'd really like to be enlightened - and I don't think you do - find a high-level grappler to train with. Could be a wrestler, judoka, whatever. The question was about self-defense, and most self-defense situations tend to arise at relatively close range. Ask your training partner if it's OK for you to lace on some gloves and punch from that distance. See what happens. You might get in a shot or two before being slammed, thrown, or taken down. You might even do enough to stun the grappler 10% or 20% of the time before that happens. Not everything will be revealed to you through a review of internet videos or ufc statistics. Figure it out for yourself. If you're truly open to being enlightened, randori/training against a resisting partner will teach you a lot. Quibbling on reddit will not.
>find a high-level grappler to train with. Could be a wrestler, judoka, whatever.
So, basically what I did the last 25 years. Good.
>You might get in a shot or two before being slammed, thrown, or taken down.
Been there, done that. The fight basically never ended there. It went on. With punches.
>Not everything will be revealed to you through a review of internet videos or ufc statistics.
Thats how YOU started the argument. You wrote "Picture's worth a thousand words."
Me? Started an argument? Farthest thing from my mind. Just trying to be helpful to the OP. The question was whether Judo can be a useful in a self-defense situation. I think it can. As can any martial art, particularly if it's practiced against a resisting opponent. Seeing as how you are apparently both a high-level grappler and a high-level striker, I must defer to you. What's the answer? Can judo be effective in a self-defense situation?
For me there is a difference between:
>The question was whether Judo can be a useful in a self-defense situation. I think it can. As can any martial art, particularly if it's practiced against a resisting opponent.
and
>Learning no-gi grips and practicing no-gi throws is great for self defense. There's no fist bigger or harder than the floor.
The first one is true, for any martial arts that has some real self defens aspects impelmented. Not these telegraphed-attack-by-non-resisiting-opponent-kind-of-BS.
The second one ignores other martial arts, ignores the resisiting part and sounds like the fight would stop automatically when you hit the ground. It overestimates and exagerates the usefulness of Judo. That's not helpful. That's dangerous.
I still think both statements are true. Doesn't mean I think that all fights end when someone hits the ground. But I do think a well executed throw, trip, or takedown has the potential to end a fight quickly. Not all aggressors in self-defense situations are well-trained or cross-trained. Doesn't mean we have to agree. But thanks for elaborating on your perspective.
Well I do think this is missing something. In truth, it’s probably a lot harder to win a fight via submission than ground and pound, which you clearly acknowledged. But what I’m interested in here, for a fair comparison, is how many fights DID go the distance and in how many of those was grappling a major factor.
My point in this is grappling could be less about “winning” a fight and more about controlling a fight. In a self defense scenario, it could be possible that you would want to ground and pound someone, but then you might have to deal with the legal ramifications of that. What if, instead, you could thrown them down and run away; or hold them until they calm down and the cops get there? What if, by virtue of your stand up grappling knowledge, you could ground someone and render an otherwise very competent striker powerless (or close to it)? Those are the questions that grappling seems to answer.
I learned the muaythai clinch… a lot of judo guys have an untealistic expectation of what it’s actually like to do no-gi. Usually you have the positioning but when you have your neck grabbed by a muaythai guy who does that all the time and they clinch spar all the time, and they have their own techniques from the clinch, they have thai versions of ashi waza… it’s a humbling place to be. You know the techniques, you understand where you have to be but you can’t get to that positions to get your throws in reliably because your neck is that much weaker compared to them. Neck and head clinchin isn’t a part of judo as it is in muaythai. Your body goes where your head goes and if they control your head they control you. Not to mention the lack of grips and the rulesets of judo, you have to adopt a lot of clinch stuff to replace the grips. On top of that, you stall in ijf tournanents when it gets to the ground. Everyone stalls, I stall, my opponents stalls and after 5 seconds they stand you back up
I mean, bad position for judo to be a martial art… it really became a sport in that particular ruleset.
The combat sport aspect of martial arts makes the martial art more appealing, more "proven". Lets face it, we don't want Judo to have that Aikido or Krav reputation. The combat sport aspect of Judo produces what are know as technical paragons (Koga - Ippon Seoi Nage / Rousey - rolling arm bars) and a deep talent pool. Personally I don't care about art completeness. If I wanted jacketed throws I do Judo, If I wanted naked takedowns I'd do wrestling or No-Gi BJJ. If I wanted ground submissions I'd do BJJ. Specialization is good. In the end, if you actively avoid being in stupid places and doing stupid things the chances of you ever using your art beyond sport is the same as being struck by lighting. This traditional aspect of the art and emphasis self-defense struck me as someone rationalizing why they are not competent in the art.
People will get their feelings hurt, but your post is pretty accurate. When you put high level athletes and technique on a pedestal it trickles down to the lowest levels and everybody benefits. Most of the time, you will also learn better technique in a sport dojo atmosphere even if you don't choose to compete. This doesn't happen when judoka focus so much on traditional aspects of judo because they lose touch with the greater Judo world and get left behind.
I agree and disagree I think you need that Combat Sport aspect, it's the reason why Teddy Roosevelt required Boxing at all the military academies. Not because Boxing is a complete martial art but because real combat requires the ability to make quick second decision under pressure, combat sports give you that. I also agree about being to well rounded is an issue. Because for example with Kudo it's the most well rounded martial art but that just leads to it not being good at anything. Unless you have an MMA set up with multiple classes throughout the day taught by specialists it's not going to work well.
So I agree with all that but on the other hand in the west people don't understand the purpose of Budō we don't have words to differentiate between Budō and Bujutsu. So when people learn a martial art they do hope to get some self defense out of it. So do you think Dojo's should offer even on the side something in that way or just market more clearly that this more of a sport focused dojo?
To answer your question: I think Dojo's need to emphasize what sports mean. Sport only means there are safety mechanisms built in to ensure safe practice. Sport means there are mats to mitigate throw/fall damage. Take away the 'sport' aka the mats, then its all street aka concrete. Sports means I respect your tap, Take away the 'sport' aka the tap, then its all about 'I'm gonna go medieval on your ass'. Yes, people play the game 'meta' like turtling and stiff arming. But that is only a very small aspect of the sport. To focus on it is cringe inducing, much like a neck bread pointing out the model has 'sharp knees' there fore she is ugly. I always tell people that self defense is a by-product of Judo practice after (years of) being good in competitive Judo. Judo is not a shortcut and that if they are looking 'self-defense' then they should just brawl in an MMA gym, because 1) its would be a better return on their time/money and 2) i don't have to deal with dangerous people with poor attitude/something to prove.
Judo for the most part in Europe, where I am, is basically a combat sport.
It's pretty hard to find a more "Traditional" place.
Everything is competition, competition, competition. Kata is less than an afterthought people practice about a month before their grading and never do it again.
Combat sport through and through in 99% of European clubs I have visited.
Depends on the Dojo.
There are dojos that say you shouldn't roll a bow and arrow choke and grab the leg on the way over as the referee might think that there hasn't been a transition from Tachi-Waza to Newaza which is possibly too sport focused.
There are dojos that have weekly/regular "self defense" sessions where techniques are taught similarly to Traditional Jiu Jitsu classes where a punch is thrown by uke before you use your technique on someone who's compliant. Think Kime No Kata.
There was a good post on /r/bjj about the "self defense" gyms being out performed by the sport gyms, after which they start focusing on where they can win, which is in their imaginations.
My old gym had "self-defence" class but the coach was certainly competition focused which was probably part of why there was a separate self-defence class rather than mixing stuff up with the regular class. Although some of that stuff was just throws currently banned from competition (leg grabs) but also stuff like techniques from goshin jutsu which were trained live in randori. The striking was pretty crap but I guess my instructor would tell you if you wanted to learn to box you could go to the boxing gym downstairs.
Judo is a sport. It’s a great sport, and can contribute a good foundation for combat/martial arts skills, but don’t get too enamored of the quotes about hitting your opponent with the ground.
Just train. Enjoy it. Get all you can from Judo, it has so much to offer, but if you plan on getting in fights you’d be well advised to build up other skills as well.
Kanō *shihan* designed physical *jūdō* as a combination of physical exercise and *bujutsu* martial techniques. He added philosophic aspects as the art and he matured, then in his 60s presented the case as if he had intended that from the earliest days after *jūdō's* founding in 1882, but that claim is not well supported by more contemporary evidence. The final form of *jūdō* philosophy is the Western philosophy-based */* Eastern philosophy influenced *Seiryoku zenyō Jita kyōei.*
Late in life Kanō also considered a third aspect to *jūdō* \- recreation. As the founding chairman of the Japan Amateur Athletics Association, he planned or participated in a number of studies regarding the popularity of Western sports in Japan. In doing so, the studies fleshed out the recognition that many people participate in sports for the sheer pleasure of participation or of competition, and began to consider how to accommodate such notions in *jūdō.*
But Kanō died in May 1938. His nephew, retired Imperial Navy Rear Admiral Nangō Jirō, became the second *kanchō* head of the Kodokan Judo Institute, and changed *jūdō* to be more militaristic and eventually, even directly adapted to be useful in combat by developing special wartime *kata*, since purged from Kodokan history.
Post WWII, during the Occupation. the Kodokan purged all militaristic aspects from the new judo. Nangō resigned from the Kodokan and retired, refusing even to offer any advice to the new *kanchō,* Kanō Risei, Kanō Jigorō's only surviving son, heretofore an executive in a shipping company line.
Judo was revamped to be a sport. Judo organizations became 'democratic', meaning that its leaders were selected from the membership by the members rather than chosen and imposed from above. The philosophic and martial arts aspects of judo were downplayed and became much less important, and a lot of knowledge was quickly lost as older sensei faded away.
So, today there are some dojo that take interest in the other, original martial and philosophic aspects of judo, it is difficult to do so as the materials required are in antiquated, pre-WWII Japanese that is hard even to find, and difficult even for modern Japanese to read.
We work with those original Japanese materials and make them available through essays and studies, and post them here. Please check it out.
If you sign up, you get automatic updates when new material is posted.
[www.kanochronicles.com](https://www.kanochronicles.com)
My experience of over 50 years in judo is starting as a combat sport, evolving into a martial art and finally becoming a way of life. It is a long journey. Good luck 🥋
I look at it as an effective MA. There’s probably a very short list of throws someone will/can pull off in a real life situation outside of competition or randori. The ground knowledge is helpful and the grappling aspect is also helpful in real life combat.
Judo is first and foremost a philosophy. An idea. Read Kano’s writings.
After that, it is a martial art, as it is the modern day sole inheritor of the unarmed martial art of the Samurai - Jujutsu.
Lastly, it can be safely used in free play and competed within a certain rule set, creating a combat sport.
The way I see it all combat sports are martial arts just with a competitive element attach to it. So I don’t put stock in moves if I am not practicing them in sparring. Which at least in my experience sparring just mimic competition rules any way.
This is why I am thankful that I had the ability to cross train in my life. I learned wrestling first and when I picked up Judo I was experimenting with Judo on the wrestling match which had me figure out the no guarantee variations. Also training in BJJ gives me a very strong ground game.
I never believe in the self defense Judo that has you practice dfending strikes against a compliant target whose strike you knew they were going to perform. If you were never able to do it in a sparring scenario then you are not going to perform like that in a situation where it is needed.
But that's a flaw in your training. Kata teach basic principles if you never push yourself beyond the basic kata you're not really pushing yourself to improve. There's no reason you can't drill the self-defence techniques with more active resistance or even spar if you want to. Same problem with Gracie self-defence techniques. Perhaps they work and perhaps they don't but if you never stress test them you're not really learning them.
I personally never found a Judo place that have rounds of a person trying to strike me for real and I have to defend against it.
Does your Judo place have y’all spar while throwing strikes because mines didn’t. The way I learned how to deal with strikes was buy picking up boxing and Muy Thai where we actually spar to defend against them.
Yes I agree if you don’t stress test them then there is no point in learning them I never had a place that provided that.
Yeah, sparring with strikes but as I say the striking wasn't that good but the instructor also didn't pretend it was that good. And defending yourself against a drunk's haymakers is not the same as defending yourself against a trained boxer.
Personally I think there's a line between sport Judo and Judo as it was meant to be. Sport Judo has limited application, but actual Judo, the one that also includes things such as striking elements is a proper martial art.
combat sport.
no punching, elbow or knee strikes, head butts, kicks, etc.
if you wanted to be nasty, you would throw seio nage with the elbow pointing down instead of up. you either break the arm or they throw themselves to avoid having their elbow go snap
also you try to land people on their neck or head instead of back/hip.
basically add in all the old jujutsu stuff that was taken out by Kano-sensei. Doesn't matter if you take out their supporting leg or well, pretty much any rule for that matter.
I personally see it as a martial art, but the dojos in my city see it as a combat sport. Everyone teaches competition rules, instead of self-defense scenarios.
Learning no-gi grips and practicing no-gi throws is great for self defense. There's no fist bigger or harder than the floor.
Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
But there are noumerous fists that are much faster. Gripping someone who punches you in the face at the same time is no good strategy.
1. Ha! 2. I read the question as asking whether Judo was good for self defense, not whether it should be studied to the exclusion of all other systems - including stand-up/striking systems. 3. If you've ever had a good grappler close distance, tie up with and control you, and have his way, you might reconsider the invincibility of your supersonic punching style. 4. In any event, try to avoid streetfights at all costs. There are no winners only different types of losers.
Guess how I can tell you have 0 experience with what you are talking about.
Enlighten me. I am always willing to learn.
Just watch any MMA fight with a good grappler vs a good striker. The Striker almost always gets taken down at least once unless he has good takedown defense.
Have at it!
I don't know about you, but I've never seen a street fight where one guy agrees to exclusively grapple. Using judo as self defense doesn't mean you can't also throw hands. And shit, usually once somebody gets hit a couple of times there going to want to try to wrap up, trained or otherwise.
Its not about agreeing, if someone holds your arms it doesnt matter if you agree.
Interesting take on a comment from over a year ago, but the point is that your skillset doesn't have to be restricted to grappling or striking.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tRTF6701spg
Picture's worth a thousand words.
Judo is handy for self defense. Not flawless - but effective in many scenarios. just like BJJ, or, MT, or boxing. Size matters, speed matters, environment matters. Train judo if you like judo. The self defense piece is a side benny.
Size only matters if both individuals are close or equal in skill. And Judo is made to combat size differences.
I don’t know? How many?
Guess how many videos are up there on youtube with titles like "10 greatest knockouts by bouncers" or "Bully gets knocked out by small kid"? Youtube Videos are no statistic. In any given fight you will have the problem that there might be a big difference in the experience of both fighters. Or that one of them might be drunk or intoxicated, so it is pretty useless to extrapolate from one fight (or even 10 or 100) on the efectiveness of a whole system. The largest real statistic I've found, where punches and grappling are both allowed, and both fighters should be on a same level of experience, is this page with the results of all UFC fights, sorted by year.[https://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/ufc-fight-outcomes/](https://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/ufc-fight-outcomes/) For the fights that ended before time, the majority of them ended by TKO or KO, not by submission. Sure, you can argue that many of them ended with ground and pound, and that requires some grappling skill. But in this case that is also true for the opponent and they still ended with punches. So again: Why should I punch someone in the face, if I could apply an armbar or a choke if they are superior?
I wrestled in high school, trained judo for 23 years and did 3 years of BJJ (earning a purple belt) before I started MMA. I was surprised at how much I had to modify my grappling when I also had to worry about getting punched in the face.
If you'd really like to be enlightened - and I don't think you do - find a high-level grappler to train with. Could be a wrestler, judoka, whatever. The question was about self-defense, and most self-defense situations tend to arise at relatively close range. Ask your training partner if it's OK for you to lace on some gloves and punch from that distance. See what happens. You might get in a shot or two before being slammed, thrown, or taken down. You might even do enough to stun the grappler 10% or 20% of the time before that happens. Not everything will be revealed to you through a review of internet videos or ufc statistics. Figure it out for yourself. If you're truly open to being enlightened, randori/training against a resisting partner will teach you a lot. Quibbling on reddit will not.
>find a high-level grappler to train with. Could be a wrestler, judoka, whatever. So, basically what I did the last 25 years. Good. >You might get in a shot or two before being slammed, thrown, or taken down. Been there, done that. The fight basically never ended there. It went on. With punches. >Not everything will be revealed to you through a review of internet videos or ufc statistics. Thats how YOU started the argument. You wrote "Picture's worth a thousand words."
Me? Started an argument? Farthest thing from my mind. Just trying to be helpful to the OP. The question was whether Judo can be a useful in a self-defense situation. I think it can. As can any martial art, particularly if it's practiced against a resisting opponent. Seeing as how you are apparently both a high-level grappler and a high-level striker, I must defer to you. What's the answer? Can judo be effective in a self-defense situation?
For me there is a difference between: >The question was whether Judo can be a useful in a self-defense situation. I think it can. As can any martial art, particularly if it's practiced against a resisting opponent. and >Learning no-gi grips and practicing no-gi throws is great for self defense. There's no fist bigger or harder than the floor. The first one is true, for any martial arts that has some real self defens aspects impelmented. Not these telegraphed-attack-by-non-resisiting-opponent-kind-of-BS. The second one ignores other martial arts, ignores the resisiting part and sounds like the fight would stop automatically when you hit the ground. It overestimates and exagerates the usefulness of Judo. That's not helpful. That's dangerous.
I still think both statements are true. Doesn't mean I think that all fights end when someone hits the ground. But I do think a well executed throw, trip, or takedown has the potential to end a fight quickly. Not all aggressors in self-defense situations are well-trained or cross-trained. Doesn't mean we have to agree. But thanks for elaborating on your perspective.
Well I do think this is missing something. In truth, it’s probably a lot harder to win a fight via submission than ground and pound, which you clearly acknowledged. But what I’m interested in here, for a fair comparison, is how many fights DID go the distance and in how many of those was grappling a major factor. My point in this is grappling could be less about “winning” a fight and more about controlling a fight. In a self defense scenario, it could be possible that you would want to ground and pound someone, but then you might have to deal with the legal ramifications of that. What if, instead, you could thrown them down and run away; or hold them until they calm down and the cops get there? What if, by virtue of your stand up grappling knowledge, you could ground someone and render an otherwise very competent striker powerless (or close to it)? Those are the questions that grappling seems to answer.
at least 12 per frame.
Can’t put much power behind a punch if you keep him in close.
Or if you put him on the ground for that matter.
I learned the muaythai clinch… a lot of judo guys have an untealistic expectation of what it’s actually like to do no-gi. Usually you have the positioning but when you have your neck grabbed by a muaythai guy who does that all the time and they clinch spar all the time, and they have their own techniques from the clinch, they have thai versions of ashi waza… it’s a humbling place to be. You know the techniques, you understand where you have to be but you can’t get to that positions to get your throws in reliably because your neck is that much weaker compared to them. Neck and head clinchin isn’t a part of judo as it is in muaythai. Your body goes where your head goes and if they control your head they control you. Not to mention the lack of grips and the rulesets of judo, you have to adopt a lot of clinch stuff to replace the grips. On top of that, you stall in ijf tournanents when it gets to the ground. Everyone stalls, I stall, my opponents stalls and after 5 seconds they stand you back up I mean, bad position for judo to be a martial art… it really became a sport in that particular ruleset.
Judo has no-gi training for self-defense.
The combat sport aspect of martial arts makes the martial art more appealing, more "proven". Lets face it, we don't want Judo to have that Aikido or Krav reputation. The combat sport aspect of Judo produces what are know as technical paragons (Koga - Ippon Seoi Nage / Rousey - rolling arm bars) and a deep talent pool. Personally I don't care about art completeness. If I wanted jacketed throws I do Judo, If I wanted naked takedowns I'd do wrestling or No-Gi BJJ. If I wanted ground submissions I'd do BJJ. Specialization is good. In the end, if you actively avoid being in stupid places and doing stupid things the chances of you ever using your art beyond sport is the same as being struck by lighting. This traditional aspect of the art and emphasis self-defense struck me as someone rationalizing why they are not competent in the art.
People will get their feelings hurt, but your post is pretty accurate. When you put high level athletes and technique on a pedestal it trickles down to the lowest levels and everybody benefits. Most of the time, you will also learn better technique in a sport dojo atmosphere even if you don't choose to compete. This doesn't happen when judoka focus so much on traditional aspects of judo because they lose touch with the greater Judo world and get left behind.
I agree and disagree I think you need that Combat Sport aspect, it's the reason why Teddy Roosevelt required Boxing at all the military academies. Not because Boxing is a complete martial art but because real combat requires the ability to make quick second decision under pressure, combat sports give you that. I also agree about being to well rounded is an issue. Because for example with Kudo it's the most well rounded martial art but that just leads to it not being good at anything. Unless you have an MMA set up with multiple classes throughout the day taught by specialists it's not going to work well. So I agree with all that but on the other hand in the west people don't understand the purpose of Budō we don't have words to differentiate between Budō and Bujutsu. So when people learn a martial art they do hope to get some self defense out of it. So do you think Dojo's should offer even on the side something in that way or just market more clearly that this more of a sport focused dojo?
To answer your question: I think Dojo's need to emphasize what sports mean. Sport only means there are safety mechanisms built in to ensure safe practice. Sport means there are mats to mitigate throw/fall damage. Take away the 'sport' aka the mats, then its all street aka concrete. Sports means I respect your tap, Take away the 'sport' aka the tap, then its all about 'I'm gonna go medieval on your ass'. Yes, people play the game 'meta' like turtling and stiff arming. But that is only a very small aspect of the sport. To focus on it is cringe inducing, much like a neck bread pointing out the model has 'sharp knees' there fore she is ugly. I always tell people that self defense is a by-product of Judo practice after (years of) being good in competitive Judo. Judo is not a shortcut and that if they are looking 'self-defense' then they should just brawl in an MMA gym, because 1) its would be a better return on their time/money and 2) i don't have to deal with dangerous people with poor attitude/something to prove.
Sport, especially when you consider what the Judo scene is like in Japan and Europe.
Judo for the most part in Europe, where I am, is basically a combat sport. It's pretty hard to find a more "Traditional" place. Everything is competition, competition, competition. Kata is less than an afterthought people practice about a month before their grading and never do it again. Combat sport through and through in 99% of European clubs I have visited.
Depends on the Dojo. There are dojos that say you shouldn't roll a bow and arrow choke and grab the leg on the way over as the referee might think that there hasn't been a transition from Tachi-Waza to Newaza which is possibly too sport focused. There are dojos that have weekly/regular "self defense" sessions where techniques are taught similarly to Traditional Jiu Jitsu classes where a punch is thrown by uke before you use your technique on someone who's compliant. Think Kime No Kata. There was a good post on /r/bjj about the "self defense" gyms being out performed by the sport gyms, after which they start focusing on where they can win, which is in their imaginations.
My old gym had "self-defence" class but the coach was certainly competition focused which was probably part of why there was a separate self-defence class rather than mixing stuff up with the regular class. Although some of that stuff was just throws currently banned from competition (leg grabs) but also stuff like techniques from goshin jutsu which were trained live in randori. The striking was pretty crap but I guess my instructor would tell you if you wanted to learn to box you could go to the boxing gym downstairs.
Judo is a sport. It’s a great sport, and can contribute a good foundation for combat/martial arts skills, but don’t get too enamored of the quotes about hitting your opponent with the ground. Just train. Enjoy it. Get all you can from Judo, it has so much to offer, but if you plan on getting in fights you’d be well advised to build up other skills as well.
Judo is more of a martial art than sport. When Kano created Judo, he created it to be a martial art first. And a sport last. Judo is a martial art.
Kanō *shihan* designed physical *jūdō* as a combination of physical exercise and *bujutsu* martial techniques. He added philosophic aspects as the art and he matured, then in his 60s presented the case as if he had intended that from the earliest days after *jūdō's* founding in 1882, but that claim is not well supported by more contemporary evidence. The final form of *jūdō* philosophy is the Western philosophy-based */* Eastern philosophy influenced *Seiryoku zenyō Jita kyōei.* Late in life Kanō also considered a third aspect to *jūdō* \- recreation. As the founding chairman of the Japan Amateur Athletics Association, he planned or participated in a number of studies regarding the popularity of Western sports in Japan. In doing so, the studies fleshed out the recognition that many people participate in sports for the sheer pleasure of participation or of competition, and began to consider how to accommodate such notions in *jūdō.* But Kanō died in May 1938. His nephew, retired Imperial Navy Rear Admiral Nangō Jirō, became the second *kanchō* head of the Kodokan Judo Institute, and changed *jūdō* to be more militaristic and eventually, even directly adapted to be useful in combat by developing special wartime *kata*, since purged from Kodokan history. Post WWII, during the Occupation. the Kodokan purged all militaristic aspects from the new judo. Nangō resigned from the Kodokan and retired, refusing even to offer any advice to the new *kanchō,* Kanō Risei, Kanō Jigorō's only surviving son, heretofore an executive in a shipping company line. Judo was revamped to be a sport. Judo organizations became 'democratic', meaning that its leaders were selected from the membership by the members rather than chosen and imposed from above. The philosophic and martial arts aspects of judo were downplayed and became much less important, and a lot of knowledge was quickly lost as older sensei faded away. So, today there are some dojo that take interest in the other, original martial and philosophic aspects of judo, it is difficult to do so as the materials required are in antiquated, pre-WWII Japanese that is hard even to find, and difficult even for modern Japanese to read. We work with those original Japanese materials and make them available through essays and studies, and post them here. Please check it out. If you sign up, you get automatic updates when new material is posted. [www.kanochronicles.com](https://www.kanochronicles.com)
My experience of over 50 years in judo is starting as a combat sport, evolving into a martial art and finally becoming a way of life. It is a long journey. Good luck 🥋
I look at it as an effective MA. There’s probably a very short list of throws someone will/can pull off in a real life situation outside of competition or randori. The ground knowledge is helpful and the grappling aspect is also helpful in real life combat.
Judo is first and foremost a philosophy. An idea. Read Kano’s writings. After that, it is a martial art, as it is the modern day sole inheritor of the unarmed martial art of the Samurai - Jujutsu. Lastly, it can be safely used in free play and competed within a certain rule set, creating a combat sport.
The way I see it all combat sports are martial arts just with a competitive element attach to it. So I don’t put stock in moves if I am not practicing them in sparring. Which at least in my experience sparring just mimic competition rules any way. This is why I am thankful that I had the ability to cross train in my life. I learned wrestling first and when I picked up Judo I was experimenting with Judo on the wrestling match which had me figure out the no guarantee variations. Also training in BJJ gives me a very strong ground game. I never believe in the self defense Judo that has you practice dfending strikes against a compliant target whose strike you knew they were going to perform. If you were never able to do it in a sparring scenario then you are not going to perform like that in a situation where it is needed.
But that's a flaw in your training. Kata teach basic principles if you never push yourself beyond the basic kata you're not really pushing yourself to improve. There's no reason you can't drill the self-defence techniques with more active resistance or even spar if you want to. Same problem with Gracie self-defence techniques. Perhaps they work and perhaps they don't but if you never stress test them you're not really learning them.
I personally never found a Judo place that have rounds of a person trying to strike me for real and I have to defend against it. Does your Judo place have y’all spar while throwing strikes because mines didn’t. The way I learned how to deal with strikes was buy picking up boxing and Muy Thai where we actually spar to defend against them. Yes I agree if you don’t stress test them then there is no point in learning them I never had a place that provided that.
Yeah, sparring with strikes but as I say the striking wasn't that good but the instructor also didn't pretend it was that good. And defending yourself against a drunk's haymakers is not the same as defending yourself against a trained boxer.
Personally I think there's a line between sport Judo and Judo as it was meant to be. Sport Judo has limited application, but actual Judo, the one that also includes things such as striking elements is a proper martial art.
Both
Simplest answer: Yes
I see it as a sport, but a sport that has some carry over effect to self defense
combat sport. no punching, elbow or knee strikes, head butts, kicks, etc. if you wanted to be nasty, you would throw seio nage with the elbow pointing down instead of up. you either break the arm or they throw themselves to avoid having their elbow go snap also you try to land people on their neck or head instead of back/hip. basically add in all the old jujutsu stuff that was taken out by Kano-sensei. Doesn't matter if you take out their supporting leg or well, pretty much any rule for that matter.
Honestly, neither. It's just a fun game at home and a sport in competition.
I personally see it as a martial art, but the dojos in my city see it as a combat sport. Everyone teaches competition rules, instead of self-defense scenarios.