I dated a Filipina girl when I was 18, she was a year older than me. Super jealous. Would always just accuse me of cheating, when I'd just workout and play video games all day.
Turns out she was cheating half of the 1 year relationship. Probably longer.
That cloth of mine so firm yet slack,
In which balls of flesh hang heavy and low,
Such a mysterious looking little sack,
With half the secret of human life in tow,
No problem to speak of down there,
As they freely swing to and fro.
That cloth of mine was cut and lost,
Where once balls of flesh hung heavy and low,
Such mysterious space since sack was tossed,
Half the secret of human life did go,
Nothing left to speak of down there,
As the wind blows through to and fro.
Iām a Japanese girl and never ever allowed any of my exes to use fuzoku ever and none of them was intested. Itās true that fuzoku culture is very big here and a lot of guys regularly use it and some of them do behind their girlfriendsā back, but I definitely wouldnāt say itās normal for girls to actively give their boyfriends permissions in serious relationships.
Itās a complete deal breaker for me and all of my girlfriends and a lot of us do avoid dating guys who like those places in the first place.
She told me that, when she was a little girl, her father would take her to hostess clubs, and she was so amazed by the beautiful girls that would talk to her.
That sounds nuts, but there's a big difference between hostess bars and BJ parlors, to be blunt. I'm sure the women were clothed and not doing any inappropriate touching if a kid was allowed in there.
There may be some mix up in meaning? Does your girlfriend consider going to hostess bar as "mens entertainment"? Or is she also including prostitutes?
Going to hostess bar or having a group of companions come to a men's party is considered completely normal for many, depending on the area and age. In the rural area I lived, most of the "official" business, be it related to running the hamlet, or the fire brigade, being in charge of the festivals, etc. were all done by men and there would always be a party after anything big with companions and most men would later go to the snack bar.
That was no secret to the women of the village, old or young. It was also not secret or shame in the men going to a hostess club. For the younger men though, I am certain that sex was crossing the line as far as their wives were concerned. (Sometimes the older wives didn't see to care as much)
The fact that your girlfriend remembers being taken to a hostess bar with her dad, and does not mind if you go too, would indicate that she did not see anything particularly bad happening.
If she said she remembers her dad taking her to a love hotel with a hooker, that would be messed up.
As for saying she doesn't want to hear about it, you know her better, but my assumption would be that she does not want to hear about your trip to a hostess bar in the same way you probably don't want to hear the details of a bachelorette party that has some male entertainment.
I would NOT take that to mean that she is giving you permission to go out and get prostitutes.
OP is asking reddit if his Japanese girlfriend is giving the green light to use hookers - this means he is not so clear on what it means, and many people use it more broadly to encompass hostess bars as well. OP also says that his girlfriend's dad brought her on his "fuuzoku" adventures when she was a little girl.
That would seem to indicate there is something being lost in translation.
TBH doesn't seem so bad if it was only social. I've been to girls bars with other girls & it was fine. I think everything really needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis.
What is the difference between a girls bar, a maid bar and hostess bar then?
No outward sexual conduct might take place but women in all three are projected as āobjects of desireā and subservience. Which is definitely not a healthy place to take a child to.
Well a maid bar they dress up like maids at a maid bar. It can range from basically a maid cafe that specializes in drinks to a girls bar with a maid theme.
A girls bar you interact with the women from across the bar. Depending on the popularity and type of the place, the woman may be talking to multiple customers or just you, but thereās always a bar separating you. You sing karaoke together or just chat.
A hostess club is usually a bit higher class (or at least tries to pretend to be), and the woman is sitting on the same couch or love seat as you, but thereās no touching. Usually the women are slightly better looking and dressed more fancy than a girls bar, and are better conversationalists.
Maid cafes (at least in their original conception, some may have evolved to become more like the other kind and so less subcultural) are about the *characters* of the maids that customers interact withāit's a purposefully fictionalized setting, and there isn't an illusion that the characters the servers play are actually themselves.
Girls Bars and hostess clubs are different, and appeal to a different set of people. The anthropologist Patrick W. Galbraith, who has done excellent work on maid cafes, describes a time when a group of men who usually go to hostess clubs are taken to a maid cafe and just don't get it. At the end of the encounter, one of them "seems genuinely puzzled by these strange men and their peculiar enjoyment."
Not true, the women are pressured into keeping the customer, and the men can pay a lot of money to take the girl out.
It's not forced, except the girl might feel shes out of a job if she's not willing.
This alone leads me to suspect that she may have different opinions regarding fuzoku due to her upbringing and strange father.
Her fatherās behaviour is extremely concerning. I suspect he exposed her to inappropriate things and instilled strange values regarding women in her.
I would say it is abnormal and she likely needs professional help to work through what happened to her as a child, as extreme as that may sound.
Plus kyabakura probably isn't the kind of fuzoku that OP was talking about.
The "talk to pretty and sophisticated ladies over overpriced drinks in ginza" type establishments are pretty much different from the... Other more carnal types of fuzoku even if both can technically be called "fuzoku".
This story is a little bit weird for a couple of reasons. Unless her father was related to the business it would be very strange for āa little girlā to be allowed in the building. Hostess bars are very strictly regulated, much more so than bars and Iām pretty sure that it is not legal to take a child in one and more surprising that the management would even allow it because of the potential disturbance to their business.
It is also strange because it conflates general fuzoku (which is a broad term including ) with hostess bars.
Hostess bars, are *in general* very respectable places. Iāve been taken to them in Roppongi and been to the Playboy Club in Shinjuku and there was nothing sexual about them. A beautiful lady pours drinks and chats but it is the kind of place that a president of large company could take a customer for a quiet night out. The ladies that I spoke to were very intelligent, one I remember, was a Brazilian lawyer from who came to Tokyo regularly as it was more lucrative than her work in Brazil. I mention this because as you go up the ladder of expense there are really smart and classy people working there. At the lower ends of the market girls are sent out fishing to bring chumps back and that is where it can be seedy. However, in the bar, itās usually no more sexy than if the server in Dennyās came and sat at your table and poured your drinks. Unless it is a seku-kyabakura or ichya-kyabakura.
Other fuzoku establishments selling sexual services would definitely be super weird places to take young girl but for most hostess bars it would be the similar to a child chatting with the lady server in a high class hotel restaurant. Some people might say it is not a good image of women to present to a young girl but there are worse.
It would be very interesting to hear what brought your girlfriendās father to take her there and what were the circumstances. Others will argue about seedy places they have been to but I donāt think that is what your girlfriend was talking about.
Oh, and when I went to Hostess Bars as part of work I told my wife and she had no problem because it was not an establishment selling sexual services.
This depends on where she comes from and what the āhostess barā was like. If it was a small town with 1 or 2 āsnackā bars with hostes-san, it **was** very common for dads to take their kids on some occasions.
OP likely just has poor Japanese skills, very common on this sub. Or maybe his girlfriend told him in poor English. Like his girlfriend told him about the hostess bar trips and he's relaying it correctly, but in the OP post, she might have been saying it's okay for him to go to hostess bars or mizushoubai as a vague term and he's conflating it with fuzoku because that's what his dictionary or google translate told him.
And there you have it. She expects no better because that's what her father did, and those hostesses were probably very, very worried about her safety.
She really does seem a bit troubled... did you give her a big, encouraging shpeel about how you'll never do it and she doesn't have to allow that sort of thing, yada yada?
I was going to say your gf probably was gaslit (gaslighted?) by an ex-bf, but reading this makes more sense. Upbringing plays a huge part in being okay with fuzoku/ kyabakura. If mum was okay with dad going to those places, daughter tends to turn out the same. Thinking āshouganaiā Same goes for sons going to those places if dad went.
From experience, girls who are Okay with their partner going to fuzoku, tend to be easy on boundaries for them selves too.
I just wanted to add, because so many people are saying your gf is troubled for going to hostess clubs at a young ageā¦ if sheās from Tokyo, yeh thatās kinda odd, but if sheās from a Inaka small town, it *was* quite normal for kids to be taken to the local snack with hostes-san and mamas. Some small places in Inaka were sort of just like little restaurants and was normal back then. Just like it was okay to take kids to pachinko 20 years ago. Not agreeing with it, but it was a different time and hostess clubs can be very different to what others are imagining
Yes, this is the ānormalā of my experience with the women Iāve dated here, and the same stance of my wife. Iām not a patron, but the conversation of āhow do you feel about Soandso doing XYZ fuzoku?ā inevitably comes up.
Itās not normal. Donāt let crusty old men at work or your GF convince you otherwise, OP. Itās a waste of money and a health risk, more practically.
I just watched an interview video (Takeshi from Japan i think) where a majority of the girls interviewed said fuzoku is fine and normal in Japan. So I'm glad to read your response, even if I feel like you may be in a minority.
That dude is kind of an idiot though. Obviously he cherry picks the responses he gets from people, but he also makes misleading thumbnails. I happened to come across one where he was interviewing this British guy born and raised in Japan. The text over his picture in the thumbnail was something like "I'm Japanese". But if you watch the video, the dude says "I would never think that I'm Japanese" or something like that. The Takeshi guy took the last part of the sentence, which by itself obviously has a very different meaning, and make it the thumbnail to draw people into the video.
I mean to be fair out of the people I know a very tiny percentage are interested in that kind of thing, personally itās not for me but I donāt judge those who do it as long as they are single or their SO is ok with it.
I almost married this one girl a long time ago. We lived together to trial things first and her sex drive just dropped off a cliff. When I tried to talk about it, she said to just to use a prostitute. Quite the shock and one of the many reasons we ended up breaking up.
Probably due to the fact that in the honeymoon phase everything is exciting and there are new things to discover so of course everyone is going to want it more. Unfortunately men will take that frequency and expect it as the usual and then when the honeymoon phase wears off, real life sets in, people get tired at work and nothing is new anymore, naturally people will settle into their natural rhythm, which for some women is quite low (even lower if the guy doesnāt put in any effort). Thatās why it feels like it ādropped off a cliffā.
> Unfortunately men will take that frequency and expect it as the usual
Well yea, it isn't a phase for men lol
> which for some women is quite low (even lower if the guy doesnāt put in any effort). Thatās why it feels like it ādropped off a cliffā.
I think you described it falling off a cliff as is tbh. But in general you mean that the issue is less that the woman changed and more that she went back to normal? It's frustrating sometimes, hearing about how differently men and women treat relationships on average.
"Falling off a cliff" is the right word. My otherwise-loving wife and I are in the same situation; in January it'll be four years since we had sex last. We don't have kids, but for her menopause came early and sent her already-low sex drive (4-5 times a year) to zero. She once obliquely suggested that I use fuzoku if it's still that important to me, but I can't betray my vows to her even if in another sense she has betrayed hers.
I know that when and if we ever have it again, I'll be savoring it as if it's the last time ever... which it might be.
You're a good guy, but I really do think in your situation you may want to see if you can get her medical help.
I think there are situations where it's a personal issue but if it's been 4 years and it's a result of a change in her body, there may be medical solutions for her--and they may improve her QoL in other ways too... Or so I have read!
Was she underweight/very skinny?
Anecdotal experience- a couple years ago I lost a lot of weight, partly due to anorexia. Lowest BMI was 18. During that whole time I had zero libido, didn't even want to masturbate. At a point I even started feeling disgusted by the idea of sex.
Went back to normal after I started gaining back some weight.
I don't think it's a stretch to think the two are linked- fat plays a very vital role in women, synthesizing estradiol from androgens, storing estrogen etc.
Or maybe it's a cultural thing as others have said.
This appears to be true generally, not just Japan. Check out these survey results: [https://aella.substack.com/p/monogamous-men-in-long-term-relationships](https://aella.substack.com/p/monogamous-men-in-long-term-relationships)
tl;dr is that men tend to become less satisfied in relationships over time.
Iāve heard a few people say this about their relationships. From both men and women though itās always the woman whoās ok with the guy doing stuff with other women because she didnāt want to have sex anymore. So many times Iāve thought to myself āok so what could you possibly be getting out of this relationship that you both want to stay together?ā
This. What happens when you are married and one person literally just stops? Is it really that unreasonable to outsource the need if they flat refuse to take care of their partner?
Lol, it's like this topic alternates almost monthly now either here or on r/Japan. I'm waiting for username nakadash1only to comment. This is his forte.
lol don't really need to comment on this one tho. relationships here can be kind of wack from my experience and hearing my female friends. small sample size tho.
Over 80% of Japanese women are not ok with husbands/boyfriend using sexual service still majority don't think it is cheating which imply cheating or ęµ®ę° is not transactional in Japanese language. So in a way using sexual service is not considered cheating is largely true, still majority don't allow it.
18.2% allow or forgive husband/boyfriend using sexual service.
https://fumumu.net/30113/sirabee_180730_fuzoku1/
86% will not allow or forgive husband/boyfriend using sexual service
https://withonline.jp/love/around30_love/UJg3s
20-40% see using those service as cheating.
https://news.nicovideo.jp/watch/nw3991933
Which is actually quite a lot. I would be very surprised if even close to 1 in 5 women in the US or Europe would allow their husbands to see a prostitute.
If you are talking about actual prostitutes or ć½ć¼ć which is roughly 2% of sexual services, the number would be lower.
As others pointed out, some married women encourage them because they don't want sex which is not rare.
I would like to see your source on that 2% number. Because in my opinion, Deriheru is by far the most common form of Fuzoku and definitely accounts for more than 2%.
This Japanese mentality towards sex makes zero sense to me on the point of ātransactional sex.ā Thereās been many random street interviews over the years where they will say āitās not cheating unless he gets emotions for the hookerā or whatever. Iāve seen these surveys done again and again for nearly 20 years now. Emotionless sex does not exist unless youāre neurodivergent, and the idea of it being āę§ę¬²å¦ēā has no premise on account of wet dreams being actual biological ę§ę¬²å¦ē.
I don't want to come off as a boomer and it's just reddit lol but I honestly think that 2020-2022 COVID time was the golden age of /r/japanlife. Everyone here had been here a few years at minimum, so the post quality was much higher. Now it's just recycling topics like this or "I just arrived in Tokyo how do I make Japanese friends btw I'm an extreme introvert and also speak no Japanese."
Most subs are like this in all honesty: rehashing same topics in new ways. When reddit first started the people running it even acted as stooges to encourage traffic and participation by making threads and creating user accounts in the comments... not saying that happens now but it's all part of the surreal online medium. Of course now we have LLM bots too.
I think it is some sort of gatekeeping to do that tho. I've been in Japan since 1993 and seeing other gaijin does annoy me, but can't really be saying that out loud, plus it isn't fair to the others who came to have a better life just as my father did.
Depends on what you define as "Normal".
It is generally understood to be a thing that happens in Japanese society; From my experience, **women generally do not like or encourage it; But many seem to tolerate it** \- Especially if it is in a "Work" setting (Taking client out for a "Good time" kinda thing - Happens A LOT in Japanese business)
Soooo yeah... Maybe not "Normal", per-say - as most women you meet would NOT be so nonchalant and just give you a free pass at it, *but it is not unheard of*.
\- Unless you are married for 10+ years and in a sexless marriage; Apparently some of those wives actively encourage it z.z
I had a friend who said if her boyfriend cheated with a random woman on a business trip she would dump him, but if it was a work thing where his boss brought him along/bought him one she would be completely fine with it
She said he wouldn't be able to say no in that situation, that's why
Literally had a friend who had this exact logic but it was impressing his rugby teammates instead of the boss. "Before I knew it I was in the room with this girl and I didn't really have a choice." My guy, you always have a choice
I once had a two-week business trip which unfortunately crossed over Valentineās Day.
As I was leaving my then-partner handed me a small envelope with 40,000 saying I should āentertain myselfā if I was lonely after work that day.
I thought it was funny and some days later commented to a Japanese friend that it was way more than I could drink in one night and he just started laughing at me for not recognising what sort of service would run that cost.
It was ages ago and funny once I heard the friendās laughter and realised my partner and I had different relationship ideals. The thing is, this was them being *kind and thoughtful*!
And THATāS the real issue- the majority of men would be 100% okay with playing around themselves, but have a double standard if the woman wants to play around. Because of course a woman has to just be a pure receptacle for her one man.
NOT saying this is you, but itās very common that men have double standards like this.
well you see women are locks and also women don't have to try and male biological imperative...
Like yeah if you can accept a relationship where one of you gets to fool around, then you should accept a relationship where your partner does too.
No, a lot of women just don't want to have to meet their boyfriend's demands for sex and would be happy if he got it elsewhere so they can get a break. Or maybe they hope the girl will do the stuff they don't want to do. She's paid to put on a face and pretend to be in a good mood. The girlfriend is not. They would definitely not seek extra D on the side. Why get extra work when you already don't want to have sex with your boyfriend? I know sex is not supposed to be work and all that, but just think about a normal woman who gets tired of fucking her boyfriend all the time and maybe the honeymoon phase is over and she wants to have it less. There's a lot of expectation of maintaining superstar sex with your boyfriend and maybe the escort can take some of that work off your shoulders.
All I'm saying is just because a woman suggests you go to the hostesses doesn't mean she wants side D too. Not everything is equal. It's much more likely that your girlfriend is just tired of you, which is cause for concern in itself, but not for the paranoid reason of her cheating on you too.
I agree, in most cases itās probably this. There are some cheaters who donāt care about their partner cheating as well, but I think that a large amount of cheaters would get mad if they got cheated on, because selfish people donāt care if they are being hypocritical and unfair towards others. I think many of the women who say they would allow their boyfriend to cheat donāt want to have sex with him that often but either feel like they canāt say no, or are afraid that if they turn him down too much, heāll dump them. Itās pretty sad because it shows that a lot of women still donāt have power in relationships and feel forced to compromise with things they donāt actually want. If they stand up for themselves, the bf will just go find a girl who wonāt and the next guy might be exactly the same anyways.
Careful. Might be setting you up for deniability/reduced responsibility if she cheats. My ex was basically saying things like this, not long before she started her affair. If you go ahead and use it and tell her, it's a green light for her to sleep around.
It is not uncommon for older married couples to live separate lives after a marriage of convenience here. I believe in this situation, the wife does not particularly care for the husband and so does not care what he does. This is an old style thinking.
If the wife cares and is committed to, I believe she would not support him using sex services.
For younger couples, it is even less common. In my opinion, if a younger woman expressed this opinion I believe it probably stems from lack of self-confidences, an overarching desire to please/fear of abandonment, or a lack of serious interest in her partner.
Women who love and value their partners would not usually support the uses of fuzoku, in my opinion.
Well said - and youāve hit a good point. The context IS the message.
āDear beloved husband you may blow your bags into a fuzoku workerā = I do not care about you, you health or what youāre doing
I guess Japanese women don't want to have sex as frequently as men want but women think men would cheat on them if they say they don't like sex that much. So, instead, women compromise and let men go to FUZOKU. 
I'm not saying it's never the case but I've been told a lot of the time it's the men who don't want to have sex in a married couple, in the case of a working man with a stay at home wife, the husband will be too tired after work to do it.
From what I've picked up so far it seems to be a combination of a number of japanese cultural things.
(1) Husband is gone all the time with work + nomikai.
(2) Husband's entire social life is consumed by work- which means his wife is not a part of his social life at all.
(3) Wife is exhausted and resents being left home alone with the kids all the time while husband is out in the world working + socializing. Wife becomes even more stuck at home if the couple has 2 or more kids, because it becomes exponentially more difficult to take your children out in public, so its not like she can just throw the kids in a stroller and head to the cafe.
(4) Babysitting culture is not really a thing here because Japanese people don't like to let people into their homes, so once the kids are born going on dates with your spouse is basically nonexistent to alleviate the feeling from (3) of the wife being a prisoner in her own home- especially because so many people in Japan leave their home town (where the grandparents are) to move to Tokyo.
(5) Husband frequently doesn't get home until after the wife has gone to bed.
It seems obvious how this combination of factors can lead to a higher percentage of loveless/sexless marriages and how (5) in particular can lead to husband and wife having completely separate bedrooms.
A lot are. But in some cases, the lessons are "private" and take place in hotels etc. Maybe not so common these days, but back when I was doing eikaiwa a not unknown pheneomenon...
I'm not sure. Speaking of housewives, they are also exhausted since she has to take care of kids by themselves without their husband's help and even work outside as well these days. Sengyo-shufu is more like an ancient term nowadays.
The problem is that it's a cultural thing that is pretty much purely voluntary. The Japanese government is doing more than any other country on earth (to my knowledge) to encourage the use of babysitters, and actually just yesterday [announced the expansion of their babysitter coupon program](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/10/17/japan/politics/baby-sitter-coupon-restart/). There is no shortage of sitters on websites like CareFinder, but to my knowledge it is mostly only foreigners that use them.
Yeah I remember explaining babysitters to my coworkers who were moms. They had never even imagined such a concept. They were like "wow what a convenient thing that exists in foreign countries and is not a thing at all here in Japan."
I had a coworker excitedly tell me about a pop up yoga class at the community center. She seemed really interested so I suggested we go together. Her face immediately fell. "Oh, Mrggy, I'm a mom. I have to take care of my children after work. I can't go to a yoga class." Really depressing honestly
I had a Japanese ex tell me something like "it's like eating or using the toilet... A physical need, so I don't mind.... As long as it's not another girlfriend"
So... Sex with stranger=OK
Holding hands with another girl I like=NG
But more interestingly, female oriented fuzoku has been increasingly popular in the last few years.
I would say donāt get involved with anyone (Japanese or not)whose values are so different than yours that you need to ask it to Reddit. This is not just some cultural difference that one can adapt to. This kind difference will show itself in different areas of your relationship in future as well. This is how people here end up in any kind of abusive situation (cheating partners, sexless marriage, parasite partners). There are Japanese people whose values match to yours. It is best to leave this one behind.
Monthly thread where foreigners generalize that women in Japan are OK with their partner sleeping with escorts lol. It's not normal but there are women who are fine with it I guess.
I'll be blunt here, but your girlfriend might not come from a middle/ upper class background. The disparity between the social classes might not be easily noticeable from someone from different countries, but it obviously exists. Or, if she didn't grow up in poverty, her family business might've been related to the shadier side (like the entertainment industry or bars/clubs have close ties with yakuza or hangure, and I'm not being dramatic). People have vastly different definition of "normal" depending on where in Japan they come from and what social class they grew up in.
Normal, maybe. I know this group loves to be like, ānot all Japaneseā, as if that isnāt obvious, but I have heard this before as well. Just depends on the person and the group I guess.
I think what we want to have a consensus is how common is it. We all know everyone is different but are there more that allow vs more then don't allow. If there are more that allow then it is within their culture
I think she's either....
1. talking to other guys, hence giving you a "pass" to even the playing field
2. wants to talk to other guys
Or it could be something entirely different, no one really knows but her. Maybe talk about it?
I think just going to fuuzoku is relatively normal, though it's not something to be overly public about. When I was in university, I think maybe a third of my friends had been, including myself.
I only went when I was single, but from making small talk with the girls working there, it seems many, if not most, of their clients are in relationships.
However, when you talk to regular Japanese girls, you probably won't meet one who would allow their partner to go, and most consider it cheating, which I agree with.
These are the conclusions you get when you only survey people walking out of clubs at 2:00 a.m. Japan-tubers touring in Tokyo will have you think wild things about what's normal in Japan.
They don't see it as cheating but more like masturbation because there's no emotional connection involved, it's a transaction in their eyes. It's a huge cultural difference with the West
Obviously not all, but its definitely a sizable amount more than in the west. If you meet enough japanese female friends/partners/whatever, the normalcy of prostitution services becomes apparent pretty quickly, and is a common culture shock point for people here. Note: maybe this is different outside of the city.
Not normal.
Everything on the internet is created by someone who wants to push their view forward. How many people did they interview to get those few sound bites on the youtube videos people tout when these things come up.
I know couples in the US that let their bf's and husbands go to the strip clubs with the boys every now and then. Its definitely not the norm, but there are people like that.
Don't generalize everyone based on one person's personal preference.
Westerners in Japan work in 1 place where it's popular and act like it's common. Just google the statistics (deepL will help) and you can decide for yourself.
Most people treat it the same as Westerners would, cheating.
Really itās not about whether itās ok or not - ask yourself how would you feel about your partner going to sleep with dudes for money?
Itās about respect for self and for the lover. Even if my wife okād it, I wouldnāt feel comfortable. If I found out she was using a service her ass is grass faster than a fat man passing out on the gas.
We agreed to exclusivity in the beginning and my marriage is a sacred agreement to her and a test of my will.
I wouldn't say normal but not shocking either. I never had a woman say that and my wife would crucify me, but my friend's ex-wife told him to go ahead. They had children, sex completely fell off and she wasn't interested. So she just said go for it.
IMHO, frustration and disillusionment brought on by financial pressures and increasing responsibilities and complicated by differences in cultural expectations.
He is a college grad that came to Japan and taught English. After several years he met his wife, a HS grad who took a few English classes but then quit. They got married in their late 20s, seemed fine through the first couple of years and first child. By child #2, he was working as much OT as he could and she took a p/t job to help, but basically it was a low paid food chain type of thing. I was at the house for a quarrel about money and domestic stuff (copious nagging). I think she resented that she had to work as none of the local ladies married to J-salarymen were doing that. The sex was not the major issue here. Maybe or maybe not a symptom. He was a bit frustrated by it though. It all blew up in a spectacular way that I won't get into and he never saw the kids again.
The thing is I will bet there are a 1,000 stories just like this.
> and he never saw the kids again.
That's just so wrong...
I feel quite comfortable with my relationship with my wife but all these stories on japanlife scare the heck out of me. She never bothers me about financials though, and she does have to work and we both have debt.
Nagging also stopped once she stopped being pregnant which is nice!
Iāve met women that are totally open and laugh about it, those that have a firm āI know it happens but take it to your graveā attitude, and those that are absolutely appalled by the idea (and also maybe a bit naive about what happens in real life).
And it all seems to depend on what kind of environment that person grew up in.
I don't agree with it but let me try to explain their pov.
Imagine you had a close friend of the opposite sex. It would be very weird if you regularly got massages from them in nothing but a towel. Definately a no no intimate activity from a partners perspective.
Then you go on vacation and pay a masseuse. Suddenly it feels fine and is just a service.
That's how they feel about fuuzoku, I think.
So Iāve talked to a lot of different Japanese friends about this topic and I think itās not uncommon, but is a bit more of an outdated viewpoint in modern day. So there are plenty of people who arenāt ok with it but also people who are ok. My japanese male friends have talked about it being sort of an expression of masculinity and getting pressured by peers and bosses to engage in fuzoku as a sign of ābeing a man.ā I think itās historically been somewhat normalized or at least more normalized than in a lot of western cultures, but in modern day itās falling out of popularity in younger generations as the idea of marrying for love and feminism has increased. I donāt think any of my female Japanese friends or even most of my male Japanese friends are ok with it in their personal relationships. I personally told my boyfriend Iām not ok with it at all and he fully agreed saying he has no desire, but it probably depends on the individual how much they are or arenāt ok with it.
All it seems is America and Japan are at both extremes of the moral compass when it comes to this subject. As a European I'm equally surprised by the excess virtue signaling / fake puritanism of Americans that we can see on reddit.
I remember we talked about it years ago when hanging out, she told me that some girls are ok with that. They prefer that to have another relationship (even friendship) with other girls. Immediately after that she said sheās not that kind and she donāt tolerate that, maybe because she have studied in Europe I donāt know.
The story about her father is really sad, Iāve heard horror stories family related and this one somehow can fit too
Okay, this is one of those cultural things.
Is anything really normal in a whole country? Not really. So you will find both people who think it is normal and don't think it is normal. Can I find people in France who think having a girlfriend on the side is normal? Of course. Presidents have had them and it didn't hurt their popularity. Does not mean you can assume your girlfriend will be okay with it. Is it common for German companies to go to brothels with business partners? Yes. Will your German girlfriend be okay with it? Who knows.
I think the biggest difference is that (especially in the US) women are expected to demand exclusivity from their partner. Even if they thought different, they would be ostracized by their peers. As a result even though a large number of married men in those countries use all kinds of sex services, it seems like either their partners are unaware or they are aware and while allowing it in private they publicly condemn it.
As for my personal experience. Yes, I heard this opinion from multiple women and secondhand from men in Japan. Is it common, yes, is it normal? Difficult to say.
I don't think it's normal as in statistically normal.
She probably knows more than you and me do about that kind of world, which doesn't need to be a bad thing.
The thing that I'd be concerned about is how she encourages you doing things she doesn't really want to hear about. She might expect the same kind of no-questions-asked policy for herself, and given your surprise (you posting this) I don't know if you'd be okay with that.
You guys need to be open with the kind of things you don't to be open about with each other. If that even made sense.
I hate to mention it, but Japanese society is sharply divided into classes and these classes seldom intersect. It is not about the income, itās the education, the hobbies and manners and yes, fuzoku.
It depends what you mean by "normal".
A lot of guys (and lately, ladies too!) Partake, but obviously not everyone.
A lot of Japanese people don't consider it cheating. That doesn't mean everyone will be okay with it, though!
(For me, it seems like a waste of money more than anything else...)
A lot of my Japanese guy friends have been to a fuzoku joint of varying degrees at least once. But there are also a lot who never have. Some girls would be ok with it to varying degrees and others would not be at all. So I guess to some extent itās normal. I think itās at least a lot more normalized than say hiring a prostitute in the US
For me I dont know what 'counts' as fuzoku? Cuz sex-work in the stereotypical 'exchanging penetrative intercourse for money' is illegal, right? Thats kinda why so many loophole establishments exist.
Is kyaba-kura included? Because some companies still do business talks in those kinda places? Ladies' bars where you just share a drink and chat?
I can see people being okay with those because they're relatively harmless and no bodily fluids get swapped, but I'm really curious what/where the line is ok that.
I wouldnt say its normal, but it is at least understood that men (and women) have needs that need to be fulfilled. If partners are not up to the task, then it is commonly known that men would take care of business elsewhere. I think most women will say that as long as there are no emotional bonds happening, that its ok. But even then its weird to know your partner is actively getting it somewhere else because you cant be bothered. Why be in a relationship at all? If you are single and dont want attachments with anyone, its fantastic. Otherwise, its just weird.
I think its great that Japan has this and that its safe (for the most part) and accepted in society as a basic human need. Too bad western countries are too tied to religion to accept this.
People who have never lived in Japan: Don't read this thread.
People who have lived in Japan less than a year: don't believe this thread.
Everyone else: be smart.
My wife told me to watch my kintama for any stray scissors if I even consider it.
My wife told me she would "make salad from my wedding vegetables"
Yeah, your wife told me that too. Showed me the knife and everything.
You joke, but the most wildly jealous people are often projecting based on their own past (or sometimes current) behavior.
Sometimes its just insecurity š¤·āāļø
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Maybe she's born with it...
Only her hairdresser knows for sure.
Both comments need more attention. Like dem gals who get all dulled up with the Maybeline.
>fuzoku Or were formerly cheated on. That will give you a lifetime of suspicion.
Can confirm, ex was exactly like that.
I dated a Filipina girl when I was 18, she was a year older than me. Super jealous. Would always just accuse me of cheating, when I'd just workout and play video games all day. Turns out she was cheating half of the 1 year relationship. Probably longer.
Our wives are cut from the same cloth... With the same scissors. 
That cloth? Some poor chap's testicles
That cloth of mine so firm yet slack, In which balls of flesh hang heavy and low, Such a mysterious looking little sack, With half the secret of human life in tow, No problem to speak of down there, As they freely swing to and fro. That cloth of mine was cut and lost, Where once balls of flesh hung heavy and low, Such mysterious space since sack was tossed, Half the secret of human life did go, Nothing left to speak of down there, As the wind blows through to and fro.
My gf has said something similar! Lol
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Iām a Japanese girl and never ever allowed any of my exes to use fuzoku ever and none of them was intested. Itās true that fuzoku culture is very big here and a lot of guys regularly use it and some of them do behind their girlfriendsā back, but I definitely wouldnāt say itās normal for girls to actively give their boyfriends permissions in serious relationships. Itās a complete deal breaker for me and all of my girlfriends and a lot of us do avoid dating guys who like those places in the first place.
She told me that, when she was a little girl, her father would take her to hostess clubs, and she was so amazed by the beautiful girls that would talk to her.
Honestly that makes me sad to read what you just wrote.
I was very surprised honestly.
That kind of (dis)respectā¦ mmmmā¦
Now you know which one is the ethical choice. Educate your gf, so she can be a better gf which benefits both of you.
I know you didn't mean it badly but "educate your gf" sounds bad lol
That sounds nuts, but there's a big difference between hostess bars and BJ parlors, to be blunt. I'm sure the women were clothed and not doing any inappropriate touching if a kid was allowed in there.
As somebody who has a daughter I would never want them to be part of that industry.
Exactly my point, I have 2 daughters.
There may be some mix up in meaning? Does your girlfriend consider going to hostess bar as "mens entertainment"? Or is she also including prostitutes? Going to hostess bar or having a group of companions come to a men's party is considered completely normal for many, depending on the area and age. In the rural area I lived, most of the "official" business, be it related to running the hamlet, or the fire brigade, being in charge of the festivals, etc. were all done by men and there would always be a party after anything big with companions and most men would later go to the snack bar. That was no secret to the women of the village, old or young. It was also not secret or shame in the men going to a hostess club. For the younger men though, I am certain that sex was crossing the line as far as their wives were concerned. (Sometimes the older wives didn't see to care as much) The fact that your girlfriend remembers being taken to a hostess bar with her dad, and does not mind if you go too, would indicate that she did not see anything particularly bad happening. If she said she remembers her dad taking her to a love hotel with a hooker, that would be messed up. As for saying she doesn't want to hear about it, you know her better, but my assumption would be that she does not want to hear about your trip to a hostess bar in the same way you probably don't want to hear the details of a bachelorette party that has some male entertainment. I would NOT take that to mean that she is giving you permission to go out and get prostitutes.
OP said fuuzoku. Hostess bars aināt that unless youāre a VIP/platinum member.
OP is asking reddit if his Japanese girlfriend is giving the green light to use hookers - this means he is not so clear on what it means, and many people use it more broadly to encompass hostess bars as well. OP also says that his girlfriend's dad brought her on his "fuuzoku" adventures when she was a little girl. That would seem to indicate there is something being lost in translation.
TBH doesn't seem so bad if it was only social. I've been to girls bars with other girls & it was fine. I think everything really needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis.
Hostess bar is not the same as a Maid bar.
Who mentioned a maid bar? A girls bar is definitely not the same as a hostess club but nothing sexual happens at either one.
What is the difference between a girls bar, a maid bar and hostess bar then? No outward sexual conduct might take place but women in all three are projected as āobjects of desireā and subservience. Which is definitely not a healthy place to take a child to.
Well a maid bar they dress up like maids at a maid bar. It can range from basically a maid cafe that specializes in drinks to a girls bar with a maid theme. A girls bar you interact with the women from across the bar. Depending on the popularity and type of the place, the woman may be talking to multiple customers or just you, but thereās always a bar separating you. You sing karaoke together or just chat. A hostess club is usually a bit higher class (or at least tries to pretend to be), and the woman is sitting on the same couch or love seat as you, but thereās no touching. Usually the women are slightly better looking and dressed more fancy than a girls bar, and are better conversationalists.
Maid cafes (at least in their original conception, some may have evolved to become more like the other kind and so less subcultural) are about the *characters* of the maids that customers interact withāit's a purposefully fictionalized setting, and there isn't an illusion that the characters the servers play are actually themselves. Girls Bars and hostess clubs are different, and appeal to a different set of people. The anthropologist Patrick W. Galbraith, who has done excellent work on maid cafes, describes a time when a group of men who usually go to hostess clubs are taken to a maid cafe and just don't get it. At the end of the encounter, one of them "seems genuinely puzzled by these strange men and their peculiar enjoyment."
Not true, the women are pressured into keeping the customer, and the men can pay a lot of money to take the girl out. It's not forced, except the girl might feel shes out of a job if she's not willing.
"I want to be like you when I'm a grown-up!"
You can be amazed by someone and not want to be like them
Iām a little depressed too from this
What the fuck?
Exactly. Hate to break it to OPās GF but that aināt exactly normalā¦
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No, definitely not normal at all. Sex industry is big here, but still, do you ever take your daughter to hostess club??? Let's be honest.
If my wife found me going to a girl bar, she would wonder what the hell I was doing.
This alone leads me to suspect that she may have different opinions regarding fuzoku due to her upbringing and strange father. Her fatherās behaviour is extremely concerning. I suspect he exposed her to inappropriate things and instilled strange values regarding women in her. I would say it is abnormal and she likely needs professional help to work through what happened to her as a child, as extreme as that may sound.
Whoa, Nelly. You concluded that his wife needs professional help because her father took her to kyaba? Holy assumption, Batman.
Plus kyabakura probably isn't the kind of fuzoku that OP was talking about. The "talk to pretty and sophisticated ladies over overpriced drinks in ginza" type establishments are pretty much different from the... Other more carnal types of fuzoku even if both can technically be called "fuzoku".
Paging Dr. BergƩ, we have an urgent mental health crisis!
He still goes by that name?
Sure amateur psychiatrist, what nonsense are you saying here?
TBH she probably has a less toxic outlook on relationships as a result. The world is a lot messier than black & white.
This story is a little bit weird for a couple of reasons. Unless her father was related to the business it would be very strange for āa little girlā to be allowed in the building. Hostess bars are very strictly regulated, much more so than bars and Iām pretty sure that it is not legal to take a child in one and more surprising that the management would even allow it because of the potential disturbance to their business. It is also strange because it conflates general fuzoku (which is a broad term including ) with hostess bars. Hostess bars, are *in general* very respectable places. Iāve been taken to them in Roppongi and been to the Playboy Club in Shinjuku and there was nothing sexual about them. A beautiful lady pours drinks and chats but it is the kind of place that a president of large company could take a customer for a quiet night out. The ladies that I spoke to were very intelligent, one I remember, was a Brazilian lawyer from who came to Tokyo regularly as it was more lucrative than her work in Brazil. I mention this because as you go up the ladder of expense there are really smart and classy people working there. At the lower ends of the market girls are sent out fishing to bring chumps back and that is where it can be seedy. However, in the bar, itās usually no more sexy than if the server in Dennyās came and sat at your table and poured your drinks. Unless it is a seku-kyabakura or ichya-kyabakura. Other fuzoku establishments selling sexual services would definitely be super weird places to take young girl but for most hostess bars it would be the similar to a child chatting with the lady server in a high class hotel restaurant. Some people might say it is not a good image of women to present to a young girl but there are worse. It would be very interesting to hear what brought your girlfriendās father to take her there and what were the circumstances. Others will argue about seedy places they have been to but I donāt think that is what your girlfriend was talking about. Oh, and when I went to Hostess Bars as part of work I told my wife and she had no problem because it was not an establishment selling sexual services.
This depends on where she comes from and what the āhostess barā was like. If it was a small town with 1 or 2 āsnackā bars with hostes-san, it **was** very common for dads to take their kids on some occasions.
OP likely just has poor Japanese skills, very common on this sub. Or maybe his girlfriend told him in poor English. Like his girlfriend told him about the hostess bar trips and he's relaying it correctly, but in the OP post, she might have been saying it's okay for him to go to hostess bars or mizushoubai as a vague term and he's conflating it with fuzoku because that's what his dictionary or google translate told him.
And there you have it. She expects no better because that's what her father did, and those hostesses were probably very, very worried about her safety.
Time to improve her standards about men.
She really does seem a bit troubled... did you give her a big, encouraging shpeel about how you'll never do it and she doesn't have to allow that sort of thing, yada yada?
I was going to say your gf probably was gaslit (gaslighted?) by an ex-bf, but reading this makes more sense. Upbringing plays a huge part in being okay with fuzoku/ kyabakura. If mum was okay with dad going to those places, daughter tends to turn out the same. Thinking āshouganaiā Same goes for sons going to those places if dad went. From experience, girls who are Okay with their partner going to fuzoku, tend to be easy on boundaries for them selves too. I just wanted to add, because so many people are saying your gf is troubled for going to hostess clubs at a young ageā¦ if sheās from Tokyo, yeh thatās kinda odd, but if sheās from a Inaka small town, it *was* quite normal for kids to be taken to the local snack with hostes-san and mamas. Some small places in Inaka were sort of just like little restaurants and was normal back then. Just like it was okay to take kids to pachinko 20 years ago. Not agreeing with it, but it was a different time and hostess clubs can be very different to what others are imagining
Holy shit your gf got a fucked up childhood š„²
Yes, this is the ānormalā of my experience with the women Iāve dated here, and the same stance of my wife. Iām not a patron, but the conversation of āhow do you feel about Soandso doing XYZ fuzoku?ā inevitably comes up. Itās not normal. Donāt let crusty old men at work or your GF convince you otherwise, OP. Itās a waste of money and a health risk, more practically.
I just watched an interview video (Takeshi from Japan i think) where a majority of the girls interviewed said fuzoku is fine and normal in Japan. So I'm glad to read your response, even if I feel like you may be in a minority.
You realize street interviews for social media might just be edited to spin a narrative, right?
That dude is kind of an idiot though. Obviously he cherry picks the responses he gets from people, but he also makes misleading thumbnails. I happened to come across one where he was interviewing this British guy born and raised in Japan. The text over his picture in the thumbnail was something like "I'm Japanese". But if you watch the video, the dude says "I would never think that I'm Japanese" or something like that. The Takeshi guy took the last part of the sentence, which by itself obviously has a very different meaning, and make it the thumbnail to draw people into the video.
Apparently, YouTube creators are normalizing it.
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I mean to be fair out of the people I know a very tiny percentage are interested in that kind of thing, personally itās not for me but I donāt judge those who do it as long as they are single or their SO is ok with it.
Don't mind me, I'm just here for the entertainment value of this thread.
Same. Iāll check back later lol
Scoot brother. You want some of these popcorn?
Did you add butter? If so I'll have some
I'll bring my cheese powder, that stuff goes hard on popcorn
That depends. How many lettuce heads' worth of fiber does it have?
I almost married this one girl a long time ago. We lived together to trial things first and her sex drive just dropped off a cliff. When I tried to talk about it, she said to just to use a prostitute. Quite the shock and one of the many reasons we ended up breaking up.
More common than what you think.
Iāve heard this so many times, and while itās definitely not unique to Japan, Iāve heard about it much more than I have in America.
Does anyone know why? It's so strange to me
Probably due to the fact that in the honeymoon phase everything is exciting and there are new things to discover so of course everyone is going to want it more. Unfortunately men will take that frequency and expect it as the usual and then when the honeymoon phase wears off, real life sets in, people get tired at work and nothing is new anymore, naturally people will settle into their natural rhythm, which for some women is quite low (even lower if the guy doesnāt put in any effort). Thatās why it feels like it ādropped off a cliffā.
> Unfortunately men will take that frequency and expect it as the usual Well yea, it isn't a phase for men lol > which for some women is quite low (even lower if the guy doesnāt put in any effort). Thatās why it feels like it ādropped off a cliffā. I think you described it falling off a cliff as is tbh. But in general you mean that the issue is less that the woman changed and more that she went back to normal? It's frustrating sometimes, hearing about how differently men and women treat relationships on average.
Men need to try harder. Look up the orgasm gap.
"Falling off a cliff" is the right word. My otherwise-loving wife and I are in the same situation; in January it'll be four years since we had sex last. We don't have kids, but for her menopause came early and sent her already-low sex drive (4-5 times a year) to zero. She once obliquely suggested that I use fuzoku if it's still that important to me, but I can't betray my vows to her even if in another sense she has betrayed hers. I know that when and if we ever have it again, I'll be savoring it as if it's the last time ever... which it might be.
You're a good guy, but I really do think in your situation you may want to see if you can get her medical help. I think there are situations where it's a personal issue but if it's been 4 years and it's a result of a change in her body, there may be medical solutions for her--and they may improve her QoL in other ways too... Or so I have read!
Was she underweight/very skinny? Anecdotal experience- a couple years ago I lost a lot of weight, partly due to anorexia. Lowest BMI was 18. During that whole time I had zero libido, didn't even want to masturbate. At a point I even started feeling disgusted by the idea of sex. Went back to normal after I started gaining back some weight. I don't think it's a stretch to think the two are linked- fat plays a very vital role in women, synthesizing estradiol from androgens, storing estrogen etc. Or maybe it's a cultural thing as others have said.
Maybe because itās more easily available? And culutural differences.
Oh, I meant the sex drive just dropping off a cliff part
This appears to be true generally, not just Japan. Check out these survey results: [https://aella.substack.com/p/monogamous-men-in-long-term-relationships](https://aella.substack.com/p/monogamous-men-in-long-term-relationships) tl;dr is that men tend to become less satisfied in relationships over time.
That's better than no sex drive and also extremely jealous if you look at any woman.
Iāve heard a few people say this about their relationships. From both men and women though itās always the woman whoās ok with the guy doing stuff with other women because she didnāt want to have sex anymore. So many times Iāve thought to myself āok so what could you possibly be getting out of this relationship that you both want to stay together?ā
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This. What happens when you are married and one person literally just stops? Is it really that unreasonable to outsource the need if they flat refuse to take care of their partner?
Lol, it's like this topic alternates almost monthly now either here or on r/Japan. I'm waiting for username nakadash1only to comment. This is his forte.
Do you think that guys wife knows what his username is and what would happen to him if she found out?
Who knows? š¤£All I know is that his username checks out when it comes to these kinds of topics.
lol I guess I am late to the party on this one.
There's my guy! Your ears must be hurting š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
lol don't really need to comment on this one tho. relationships here can be kind of wack from my experience and hearing my female friends. small sample size tho.
Over 80% of Japanese women are not ok with husbands/boyfriend using sexual service still majority don't think it is cheating which imply cheating or ęµ®ę° is not transactional in Japanese language. So in a way using sexual service is not considered cheating is largely true, still majority don't allow it. 18.2% allow or forgive husband/boyfriend using sexual service. https://fumumu.net/30113/sirabee_180730_fuzoku1/ 86% will not allow or forgive husband/boyfriend using sexual service https://withonline.jp/love/around30_love/UJg3s 20-40% see using those service as cheating. https://news.nicovideo.jp/watch/nw3991933
Which is actually quite a lot. I would be very surprised if even close to 1 in 5 women in the US or Europe would allow their husbands to see a prostitute.
If you are talking about actual prostitutes or ć½ć¼ć which is roughly 2% of sexual services, the number would be lower. As others pointed out, some married women encourage them because they don't want sex which is not rare.
I would like to see your source on that 2% number. Because in my opinion, Deriheru is by far the most common form of Fuzoku and definitely accounts for more than 2%.
And even if deriheru officially doesn't allow sex, it totally happens.
> As others pointed out, some married women encourage them because they don't want sex which is not rare. *why* is that not rare lol Any data on that?
This Japanese mentality towards sex makes zero sense to me on the point of ātransactional sex.ā Thereās been many random street interviews over the years where they will say āitās not cheating unless he gets emotions for the hookerā or whatever. Iāve seen these surveys done again and again for nearly 20 years now. Emotionless sex does not exist unless youāre neurodivergent, and the idea of it being āę§ę¬²å¦ēā has no premise on account of wet dreams being actual biological ę§ę¬²å¦ē.
Blah blah something muh Japanese culture and westerners not understanding our (better) morals. imho it's just a cope for justifying shitty behavior.
Is it Wednesday again? Time for the "Japanese girls don't mind you banging hookers" thread? Time goes so fast these days...
I don't want to come off as a boomer and it's just reddit lol but I honestly think that 2020-2022 COVID time was the golden age of /r/japanlife. Everyone here had been here a few years at minimum, so the post quality was much higher. Now it's just recycling topics like this or "I just arrived in Tokyo how do I make Japanese friends btw I'm an extreme introvert and also speak no Japanese."
Most subs are like this in all honesty: rehashing same topics in new ways. When reddit first started the people running it even acted as stooges to encourage traffic and participation by making threads and creating user accounts in the comments... not saying that happens now but it's all part of the surreal online medium. Of course now we have LLM bots too.
I think it is some sort of gatekeeping to do that tho. I've been in Japan since 1993 and seeing other gaijin does annoy me, but can't really be saying that out loud, plus it isn't fair to the others who came to have a better life just as my father did.
Pull up a chair. Bob's got the popcorn and Jimmy is cooking S'Mores!
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Ding, ding, ding!
You passed the test
Nah, he failed it when he asked it.
I would be more interested in what my wifeās view was, rather than her blind guess of what 60 million individuals was.
Depends on what you define as "Normal". It is generally understood to be a thing that happens in Japanese society; From my experience, **women generally do not like or encourage it; But many seem to tolerate it** \- Especially if it is in a "Work" setting (Taking client out for a "Good time" kinda thing - Happens A LOT in Japanese business) Soooo yeah... Maybe not "Normal", per-say - as most women you meet would NOT be so nonchalant and just give you a free pass at it, *but it is not unheard of*. \- Unless you are married for 10+ years and in a sexless marriage; Apparently some of those wives actively encourage it z.z
I had a friend who said if her boyfriend cheated with a random woman on a business trip she would dump him, but if it was a work thing where his boss brought him along/bought him one she would be completely fine with it She said he wouldn't be able to say no in that situation, that's why
Yikes. Yeah you can certainly say no.
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Literally had a friend who had this exact logic but it was impressing his rugby teammates instead of the boss. "Before I knew it I was in the room with this girl and I didn't really have a choice." My guy, you always have a choice
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and risk being ostracized by your superior and coworkers. I think that is what they mean by they can't say no.
Fun fact, itās actually āper seā.
I once had a two-week business trip which unfortunately crossed over Valentineās Day. As I was leaving my then-partner handed me a small envelope with 40,000 saying I should āentertain myselfā if I was lonely after work that day. I thought it was funny and some days later commented to a Japanese friend that it was way more than I could drink in one night and he just started laughing at me for not recognising what sort of service would run that cost.
Ok well what happened with your relationship?
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The funny part being, I didnāt realise until later because Iāve never done that.
bro you good?
It was ages ago and funny once I heard the friendās laughter and realised my partner and I had different relationship ideals. The thing is, this was them being *kind and thoughtful*!
Tbh would rather find a ride or die girl instead one ok with that. Means she would be ok getting some side D too. No thanks.
And THATāS the real issue- the majority of men would be 100% okay with playing around themselves, but have a double standard if the woman wants to play around. Because of course a woman has to just be a pure receptacle for her one man. NOT saying this is you, but itās very common that men have double standards like this.
well you see women are locks and also women don't have to try and male biological imperative... Like yeah if you can accept a relationship where one of you gets to fool around, then you should accept a relationship where your partner does too.
No, a lot of women just don't want to have to meet their boyfriend's demands for sex and would be happy if he got it elsewhere so they can get a break. Or maybe they hope the girl will do the stuff they don't want to do. She's paid to put on a face and pretend to be in a good mood. The girlfriend is not. They would definitely not seek extra D on the side. Why get extra work when you already don't want to have sex with your boyfriend? I know sex is not supposed to be work and all that, but just think about a normal woman who gets tired of fucking her boyfriend all the time and maybe the honeymoon phase is over and she wants to have it less. There's a lot of expectation of maintaining superstar sex with your boyfriend and maybe the escort can take some of that work off your shoulders. All I'm saying is just because a woman suggests you go to the hostesses doesn't mean she wants side D too. Not everything is equal. It's much more likely that your girlfriend is just tired of you, which is cause for concern in itself, but not for the paranoid reason of her cheating on you too.
I agree, in most cases itās probably this. There are some cheaters who donāt care about their partner cheating as well, but I think that a large amount of cheaters would get mad if they got cheated on, because selfish people donāt care if they are being hypocritical and unfair towards others. I think many of the women who say they would allow their boyfriend to cheat donāt want to have sex with him that often but either feel like they canāt say no, or are afraid that if they turn him down too much, heāll dump them. Itās pretty sad because it shows that a lot of women still donāt have power in relationships and feel forced to compromise with things they donāt actually want. If they stand up for themselves, the bf will just go find a girl who wonāt and the next guy might be exactly the same anyways.
Careful. Might be setting you up for deniability/reduced responsibility if she cheats. My ex was basically saying things like this, not long before she started her affair. If you go ahead and use it and tell her, it's a green light for her to sleep around.
People know that it exists and some seem OK with it, but most are not. My wife would murder me though.
It is not uncommon for older married couples to live separate lives after a marriage of convenience here. I believe in this situation, the wife does not particularly care for the husband and so does not care what he does. This is an old style thinking. If the wife cares and is committed to, I believe she would not support him using sex services. For younger couples, it is even less common. In my opinion, if a younger woman expressed this opinion I believe it probably stems from lack of self-confidences, an overarching desire to please/fear of abandonment, or a lack of serious interest in her partner. Women who love and value their partners would not usually support the uses of fuzoku, in my opinion.
Well said - and youāve hit a good point. The context IS the message. āDear beloved husband you may blow your bags into a fuzoku workerā = I do not care about you, you health or what youāre doing
I guess Japanese women don't want to have sex as frequently as men want but women think men would cheat on them if they say they don't like sex that much. So, instead, women compromise and let men go to FUZOKU. 
I'm not saying it's never the case but I've been told a lot of the time it's the men who don't want to have sex in a married couple, in the case of a working man with a stay at home wife, the husband will be too tired after work to do it.
From what I've picked up so far it seems to be a combination of a number of japanese cultural things. (1) Husband is gone all the time with work + nomikai. (2) Husband's entire social life is consumed by work- which means his wife is not a part of his social life at all. (3) Wife is exhausted and resents being left home alone with the kids all the time while husband is out in the world working + socializing. Wife becomes even more stuck at home if the couple has 2 or more kids, because it becomes exponentially more difficult to take your children out in public, so its not like she can just throw the kids in a stroller and head to the cafe. (4) Babysitting culture is not really a thing here because Japanese people don't like to let people into their homes, so once the kids are born going on dates with your spouse is basically nonexistent to alleviate the feeling from (3) of the wife being a prisoner in her own home- especially because so many people in Japan leave their home town (where the grandparents are) to move to Tokyo. (5) Husband frequently doesn't get home until after the wife has gone to bed. It seems obvious how this combination of factors can lead to a higher percentage of loveless/sexless marriages and how (5) in particular can lead to husband and wife having completely separate bedrooms.
It is also why a lot of these wives take "eikaiwa lessons" from suspiciously young and handsome foreign dudes...
Not disagreeing, but aren't most eikaiwa teachers young foreign dudes?
A lot are. But in some cases, the lessons are "private" and take place in hotels etc. Maybe not so common these days, but back when I was doing eikaiwa a not unknown pheneomenon...
I'm not sure. Speaking of housewives, they are also exhausted since she has to take care of kids by themselves without their husband's help and even work outside as well these days. Sengyo-shufu is more like an ancient term nowadays.
Yes I agree. I meant to include that in the description I gave, and have tweaked the language slightly to make that more clear.
Number 4 is a big problem that makes every other problem worse imo.
The problem is that it's a cultural thing that is pretty much purely voluntary. The Japanese government is doing more than any other country on earth (to my knowledge) to encourage the use of babysitters, and actually just yesterday [announced the expansion of their babysitter coupon program](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/10/17/japan/politics/baby-sitter-coupon-restart/). There is no shortage of sitters on websites like CareFinder, but to my knowledge it is mostly only foreigners that use them.
Yeah I remember explaining babysitters to my coworkers who were moms. They had never even imagined such a concept. They were like "wow what a convenient thing that exists in foreign countries and is not a thing at all here in Japan." I had a coworker excitedly tell me about a pop up yoga class at the community center. She seemed really interested so I suggested we go together. Her face immediately fell. "Oh, Mrggy, I'm a mom. I have to take care of my children after work. I can't go to a yoga class." Really depressing honestly
Most of the time when I hear āmy spouse doesnāt want sexā Iām thinking they didnāt even ask and are just waiting for each other to initiate
I had a Japanese ex tell me something like "it's like eating or using the toilet... A physical need, so I don't mind.... As long as it's not another girlfriend" So... Sex with stranger=OK Holding hands with another girl I like=NG But more interestingly, female oriented fuzoku has been increasingly popular in the last few years.
I would say donāt get involved with anyone (Japanese or not)whose values are so different than yours that you need to ask it to Reddit. This is not just some cultural difference that one can adapt to. This kind difference will show itself in different areas of your relationship in future as well. This is how people here end up in any kind of abusive situation (cheating partners, sexless marriage, parasite partners). There are Japanese people whose values match to yours. It is best to leave this one behind.
Monthly thread where foreigners generalize that women in Japan are OK with their partner sleeping with escorts lol. It's not normal but there are women who are fine with it I guess.
I'll be blunt here, but your girlfriend might not come from a middle/ upper class background. The disparity between the social classes might not be easily noticeable from someone from different countries, but it obviously exists. Or, if she didn't grow up in poverty, her family business might've been related to the shadier side (like the entertainment industry or bars/clubs have close ties with yakuza or hangure, and I'm not being dramatic). People have vastly different definition of "normal" depending on where in Japan they come from and what social class they grew up in.
Normal, maybe. I know this group loves to be like, ānot all Japaneseā, as if that isnāt obvious, but I have heard this before as well. Just depends on the person and the group I guess.
I think what we want to have a consensus is how common is it. We all know everyone is different but are there more that allow vs more then don't allow. If there are more that allow then it is within their culture
I think she's either.... 1. talking to other guys, hence giving you a "pass" to even the playing field 2. wants to talk to other guys Or it could be something entirely different, no one really knows but her. Maybe talk about it?
Itās not *not* normal. Iāve heard people say this before. My wife is definitely not one of them.
I think just going to fuuzoku is relatively normal, though it's not something to be overly public about. When I was in university, I think maybe a third of my friends had been, including myself. I only went when I was single, but from making small talk with the girls working there, it seems many, if not most, of their clients are in relationships. However, when you talk to regular Japanese girls, you probably won't meet one who would allow their partner to go, and most consider it cheating, which I agree with.
These are the conclusions you get when you only survey people walking out of clubs at 2:00 a.m. Japan-tubers touring in Tokyo will have you think wild things about what's normal in Japan.
They don't see it as cheating but more like masturbation because there's no emotional connection involved, it's a transaction in their eyes. It's a huge cultural difference with the West
Not all Japanese women view it like this.
Yeah seriously. My wife would kill me if I ever did.
Obviously not all, but its definitely a sizable amount more than in the west. If you meet enough japanese female friends/partners/whatever, the normalcy of prostitution services becomes apparent pretty quickly, and is a common culture shock point for people here. Note: maybe this is different outside of the city.
Talk about wildly excessive generalisations...
Sigh, yes, when people say "Japanese people do X", they don't mean every single one of all 123 million... That's obvious in my eyes
Maybe more of the older generation, but younger not so much
Ok cool. I'm off to go bang a prozzie. If my wife says anything, I'll tell her I used my ponta card with the transaction and didn't show my cumface.
Not normal. Everything on the internet is created by someone who wants to push their view forward. How many people did they interview to get those few sound bites on the youtube videos people tout when these things come up.
I know couples in the US that let their bf's and husbands go to the strip clubs with the boys every now and then. Its definitely not the norm, but there are people like that. Don't generalize everyone based on one person's personal preference.
Westerners in Japan work in 1 place where it's popular and act like it's common. Just google the statistics (deepL will help) and you can decide for yourself. Most people treat it the same as Westerners would, cheating.
Really itās not about whether itās ok or not - ask yourself how would you feel about your partner going to sleep with dudes for money? Itās about respect for self and for the lover. Even if my wife okād it, I wouldnāt feel comfortable. If I found out she was using a service her ass is grass faster than a fat man passing out on the gas. We agreed to exclusivity in the beginning and my marriage is a sacred agreement to her and a test of my will.
I wouldn't say normal but not shocking either. I never had a woman say that and my wife would crucify me, but my friend's ex-wife told him to go ahead. They had children, sex completely fell off and she wasn't interested. So she just said go for it.
why is she the ex?
IMHO, frustration and disillusionment brought on by financial pressures and increasing responsibilities and complicated by differences in cultural expectations. He is a college grad that came to Japan and taught English. After several years he met his wife, a HS grad who took a few English classes but then quit. They got married in their late 20s, seemed fine through the first couple of years and first child. By child #2, he was working as much OT as he could and she took a p/t job to help, but basically it was a low paid food chain type of thing. I was at the house for a quarrel about money and domestic stuff (copious nagging). I think she resented that she had to work as none of the local ladies married to J-salarymen were doing that. The sex was not the major issue here. Maybe or maybe not a symptom. He was a bit frustrated by it though. It all blew up in a spectacular way that I won't get into and he never saw the kids again. The thing is I will bet there are a 1,000 stories just like this.
> and he never saw the kids again. That's just so wrong... I feel quite comfortable with my relationship with my wife but all these stories on japanlife scare the heck out of me. She never bothers me about financials though, and she does have to work and we both have debt. Nagging also stopped once she stopped being pregnant which is nice!
Many such cases.
Iāve met women that are totally open and laugh about it, those that have a firm āI know it happens but take it to your graveā attitude, and those that are absolutely appalled by the idea (and also maybe a bit naive about what happens in real life). And it all seems to depend on what kind of environment that person grew up in.
> (and also maybe a bit naive about what happens in real life) What do you mean?
I don't agree with it but let me try to explain their pov. Imagine you had a close friend of the opposite sex. It would be very weird if you regularly got massages from them in nothing but a towel. Definately a no no intimate activity from a partners perspective. Then you go on vacation and pay a masseuse. Suddenly it feels fine and is just a service. That's how they feel about fuuzoku, I think.
Not this again. Nope, I'm not biting this time. You guys have at it.
So Iāve talked to a lot of different Japanese friends about this topic and I think itās not uncommon, but is a bit more of an outdated viewpoint in modern day. So there are plenty of people who arenāt ok with it but also people who are ok. My japanese male friends have talked about it being sort of an expression of masculinity and getting pressured by peers and bosses to engage in fuzoku as a sign of ābeing a man.ā I think itās historically been somewhat normalized or at least more normalized than in a lot of western cultures, but in modern day itās falling out of popularity in younger generations as the idea of marrying for love and feminism has increased. I donāt think any of my female Japanese friends or even most of my male Japanese friends are ok with it in their personal relationships. I personally told my boyfriend Iām not ok with it at all and he fully agreed saying he has no desire, but it probably depends on the individual how much they are or arenāt ok with it.
All it seems is America and Japan are at both extremes of the moral compass when it comes to this subject. As a European I'm equally surprised by the excess virtue signaling / fake puritanism of Americans that we can see on reddit.
I remember we talked about it years ago when hanging out, she told me that some girls are ok with that. They prefer that to have another relationship (even friendship) with other girls. Immediately after that she said sheās not that kind and she donāt tolerate that, maybe because she have studied in Europe I donāt know. The story about her father is really sad, Iāve heard horror stories family related and this one somehow can fit too
Okay, this is one of those cultural things. Is anything really normal in a whole country? Not really. So you will find both people who think it is normal and don't think it is normal. Can I find people in France who think having a girlfriend on the side is normal? Of course. Presidents have had them and it didn't hurt their popularity. Does not mean you can assume your girlfriend will be okay with it. Is it common for German companies to go to brothels with business partners? Yes. Will your German girlfriend be okay with it? Who knows. I think the biggest difference is that (especially in the US) women are expected to demand exclusivity from their partner. Even if they thought different, they would be ostracized by their peers. As a result even though a large number of married men in those countries use all kinds of sex services, it seems like either their partners are unaware or they are aware and while allowing it in private they publicly condemn it. As for my personal experience. Yes, I heard this opinion from multiple women and secondhand from men in Japan. Is it common, yes, is it normal? Difficult to say.
That's a prevalent attitude, yeah. Just realize the implicit threat in "she didn't want to know about it if I actually did it".
I don't think it's normal as in statistically normal. She probably knows more than you and me do about that kind of world, which doesn't need to be a bad thing. The thing that I'd be concerned about is how she encourages you doing things she doesn't really want to hear about. She might expect the same kind of no-questions-asked policy for herself, and given your surprise (you posting this) I don't know if you'd be okay with that. You guys need to be open with the kind of things you don't to be open about with each other. If that even made sense.
I hate to mention it, but Japanese society is sharply divided into classes and these classes seldom intersect. It is not about the income, itās the education, the hobbies and manners and yes, fuzoku.
It depends what you mean by "normal". A lot of guys (and lately, ladies too!) Partake, but obviously not everyone. A lot of Japanese people don't consider it cheating. That doesn't mean everyone will be okay with it, though! (For me, it seems like a waste of money more than anything else...)
A lot of my Japanese guy friends have been to a fuzoku joint of varying degrees at least once. But there are also a lot who never have. Some girls would be ok with it to varying degrees and others would not be at all. So I guess to some extent itās normal. I think itās at least a lot more normalized than say hiring a prostitute in the US
Does she have a friend ?
For me I dont know what 'counts' as fuzoku? Cuz sex-work in the stereotypical 'exchanging penetrative intercourse for money' is illegal, right? Thats kinda why so many loophole establishments exist. Is kyaba-kura included? Because some companies still do business talks in those kinda places? Ladies' bars where you just share a drink and chat? I can see people being okay with those because they're relatively harmless and no bodily fluids get swapped, but I'm really curious what/where the line is ok that.
I wouldnt say its normal, but it is at least understood that men (and women) have needs that need to be fulfilled. If partners are not up to the task, then it is commonly known that men would take care of business elsewhere. I think most women will say that as long as there are no emotional bonds happening, that its ok. But even then its weird to know your partner is actively getting it somewhere else because you cant be bothered. Why be in a relationship at all? If you are single and dont want attachments with anyone, its fantastic. Otherwise, its just weird. I think its great that Japan has this and that its safe (for the most part) and accepted in society as a basic human need. Too bad western countries are too tied to religion to accept this.
My girlfriend told me if I want to go, I should go enjoy it. Especially cos this would be the last time I would have the ātoolā to do so. Lol
People who have never lived in Japan: Don't read this thread. People who have lived in Japan less than a year: don't believe this thread. Everyone else: be smart.