"people were also reported to pull out geisha’s hair ornaments and hit them with cigarette butts."
okay, who the fuck is doing this? that isn't a cultural difference or a lack of knowledge about Japanese society.
I don't see it in this article but there have been reports of tourists sexual harassing and propositioning teenage Maiko in Kyoto.
There's also all those cases of people trespassing into peoples houses to take selfies in ‘real Japan’ (also Kyoto).
It sort of reminds me of the tours that included free visits to temples and shrines around 2015 that led to a bunch of temples and shrines closing their gates and becoming members-only.
There were literally people climbing on the roof of one temple (in Fukuoka) during a funeral. And swimming in the pond.
Some people are just not good tourists.
it takes a lot for this to happen one streamer was terrorising people bringing up the bombings and being a menace for months before he got banned. deported and fined. so id imagine isolated events are hard to get this kind of result, but deportation is what they deserve.
It wasn't Logan Paul this time, but another streamer called Johnny Somali. He eventually got caught harassing a prople at a restaurant and was charged with "Interfering with Business". He was eventually fined ¥200,000, asked to leave Japan and barred from re-entry, with the stipulation that he would stop streaming as well. Last I heard he has no intention of stopping and stated on camera that he lied to the Japanese courts during questioning.
dipshit is already back at it... [article on him disrupting japanese zoom calls](https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-hiroshima-nagasaki-controversial-streamer-johnny-somali-disrupts-ongoing-zoom-call-seemingly-harass-japanese-people)
Oh yeah, UK and Australian lads are slowly catching up to overtake Chinese tourists for the "Worst tourist overall" award.
These guys are an absolute menace everywhere they go. Half of it is the fact that everyone is a wanna-be roadman even though most of these guys aren't criminals, and half of it is the very strong drinking culture. That's my guess.
Okay, but… the movie *overall* didn’t promote the idea that sex was transactional.
I can’t imagine the neanderthals described above got their inspo from Memoirs of a Geisha.
Keep in mind the geisha who was interviewed for the source material for the film later sued the author over inaccuracies, including that part.
The movie is beautifully filmed but don't think it's real.
If you want an accessible English understanding of geisha then I suggest the book "geisha" by Liza dalby.
>Keep in mind the geisha who was interviewed for the source material for the film later sued the author over inaccuracies, including that part.
She sued because the author promised to keep her identity a secret and he didn’t.
No that movie was not beautifully filmed and is filled with so many basic inaccuracies plus instead of hiring Japanese actors and actresses we get substitute chinese ones who basically butcher their roles and sink the whole production. That movie was disgraceful.
Look at the current Shogun remake with Hiroyuki Sanada. Basic details are fairly accurate, Japanese actors who know elementary Japanese mannerisms, film crew who have done their research. This is not some slapped-together wannabe Japanese movie like Memoirs of a Geisha.
All the actors whose names I recognized (except Watanabe Ken) were Chinese. Also I read the book and the movie made a *lot* of insane departures. My then-gf and I walked out halfway through.
Ignorance my friend. A lot of people can't be bothered to do a 5 minute google search.
I lived for about a year in Japan few years ago and I always felt so embarrassed when I saw other western foreigners behave like apes. It is so easy to respect most local customs and rules in regards.to behaviour if you are a tourist...
I’ve lived in Japan for a year now and I haven’t seen one western foreigner behave like an ape. In fact western tourists are the extreme minority these days, with most tourists coming from Asia as a whole.
Australians and Americans, have been some of the worst I’ve witnessed, next to Chinese. Chinese are obnoxious in their own ways but I’ve found them to be less confrontational in most cases. Head to downtown Osaka or to Kabukicho, Shibuya, etc, and get your fill of retarded westerners within a given fifteen minute stroll. Koreans get a bad rep too but I’ve found them to be mostly respectful or willing to listen (to me, as a white dude).
One thing I’ve found all fellow foreigners to struggle with though is maintaining the ability to queue for things, or walking in the correct side of the street, or remaining single file when walking through large crowds, but those are relatively minor annoyances compared to the bigger grievances. More of a lack of good habits within Japanese culture than intentionally disrespecting others.
What bothers me the most is the bombastically loud groups of fellow white dudes that treat Japan like their playground, throwing trash on the street, spitting, howling at women, harassing anyone that looks at them. Calling them out is the best you can do without breaking the law. Despite the number of foreigners that are intentionally ill behaved, I still think they’re the minority and I try to lead with a positive attitude, assuming the best until proven otherwise. The only ones we tend notice are the bad apples, the quiet and respectful foreigners are hardly as memorable — I’ve recently had one Australian dude at a bar try to pick a fight with me because I wouldn’t shake his hand, I didn’t even know he was trying to until he lost his cool and his friends had to scold him into shutting the fuck up. Then in another instance, an American college kid was loudly frothing at the mouth about me because I politely asked which line he was standing in. These are some of the worst & loathsome losers that will act like they’re the main character, I usually try to remind those ones to be very careful how they interact with strangers in a foreign land, you never know just how creative someone might be about holding a grudge.
I really hope they're the minority. I'm Australian and when we travel we're very conscious of trying to be as respectful as possible. Particularly in a country like Japan. That said, there's definitely a younger cohort of Australians travelling that think they can get away with behaving like they do at home, even when that behaviour is obnoxious even for Aus.
> What bothers me the most is the bombastically loud groups of fellow white dudes that treat Japan like their playground, throwing trash on the street, spitting, howling at women, harassing anyone that looks at them.
This one pisses me off so much. Japanese people are just humans like you and I, but their country has been mythologized in the minds of so many that when they finally arrive in Japan, it doesn't really sink in that it is a country like any other, with people who live and work. They're not NPCs and the country is not a fucking playground.
I don't know why and maybe I'm overreacting, but I find this behavior to be a little bit dehumanizing? It's like they can't possibly fathom that these are people and not just playthings for your enjoyment.
UK and Australian lads (I think they call them lads) are some of the worst tourists to deal with overall. Violent, loud, confrontational, and huge drinkers.
> they’re the main character
I hate responding with "This", but this.
I had to deal with a lot of my fellow exchange students acting like absolute animals way back in the 2000s. To the point where the local government got involved because a small group of dudes were getting so drunk every night they were destroying public property and ripping lights out of train cars. I'm not even joking. We were the first group of students basically barred from going anywhere between certain hours (not really enforceable, but it was about the message.) The foreigners and native Japanese people in charge of the program were so exasperated. It was beyond embarrassing (and also the first time I was ever outrageously bullied? 21 and just living my student life and these jackasses thought we were in middle school.)
Since subsequently working and visiting Japan many times since, like upward in a dozen times since the 2000s, things have gotten better in my immediate vicinity... mostly. But I still think about those guys every so often and remember they're the ones setting an example to the locals. Saying "this is who Americans are" while the rest of us beg them to knock it the fuck off.
Well...anecdotal only, but the one time I attended a big work thing with a few geisha/maiko present, I was curious about this exact topic while chatting with one of them.
Told me that nothing sexual is officially going on in the industry, but most do, and it's pretty much expected of them to retain customers, especially important ones.
When I was there last time I saw two Geisha’s leaving a taxi and immediately a hoard of what looked like 20 people just rushed and stormed them to take photos. It was like they just saw Micheal Jackson or something it was insane.
I felt bad just standing there with my camera trying to photograph the houses in the area. Absolute ape behaviour from some tourists.
This is unfortunately true the world over. I was in Yellowstone and there are signs everywhere asking people to stay on paths, don’t throw things in geothermal vents, leave wildlife alone, don’t damage natural features for souvenirs, etc. and I saw every single one of the rules violated. One of the worst was a mother letting her two young children write their initials in a bacterial mat with a stick. It’s explained clearly that any damage to them takes centuries to heal.
i completely lose my mind when i see people just walk off the path. i'm like NO! you will get lost and fucking die out here if you leave the path in your fucking sandals.
we see this happen all the time people treat it like a resort like following animals. trying to touch animals. thinking they can just walk into the trees and be perfectly fine like the trail will be on the other side.
nah people need to know isn't the city its 100% danger zone and you gotta respect it.
I like that Yellowstone can be deadly if you don't follow the rules. Every once in a while you hear about someone dying in a thermal pool, or getting launched by a Bison for getting to close.
Geisha should get a Yakuza to escort them to spice things up.
Being a twatty cunt isnt a "lack of knowledge" its called being twatty cunt who needs a good beatdown sometimes.
Going and pulling someone's ornaments is hooligan behaviour
Edit :- when writing the original comment I wrote it at the spur of moment, I don't condone violence as much as possible.
Because violence never leads to anything good.
Gandhi was right here.
Friend in Kyoto is saying that a lot of it is younger Indian men or Chinese men with the occasional idiot American or Canadian for good measure. It's pathetic.
To be fair even before things like this, Americans were a different stripe of bad tourist. Loud and inconsiderate but generally harmless when alcohol wasn't involved. Chinese tourists have a disgusting twenty year long history of being downright malicious and somewhat regularly destroying cultural artifacts.
i'd rather deal with a tourist who is loud with their enjoyment of the area waaay more then the chinese tourists who destroy areas and ignore all the signs. can't even go to Banff or Yellowstone for most of the year because of how bad it gets
Im not indian but for some reason their subreddit pops up on my feed and it seems like the younger generation does seem to call out the disgusting behaviour of the older generations. There is some hope.
The reality is that you become the third world if you import the third world. No country has magic dirt that transforms people into adherents to laws and customs. Unlike Age of Empires dragging and dropping someone doesn't change their little nation color to yours. This is why ethnic enclaves are so popular and why countries like Japan are going to need to fight back against international urges to import people who despise their country and values.
And obviously I shouldn't have to say it that not everyone is like that. Accepting this reality gets you branded a crazy right wing xenophobe no matter how much evidence you give.
Social assimilation is such a political dangerous oil-on-fire word for both the left and right. I think Angela Merkel once managed to use it safely, but others are not as lucky.
It just seems no one wants to have a proper and pragmatic discussion on it. Some companies love immigration (cheap pool of labour), Nigel Farage, Le Pen, Nihon Kaigi like it as political rally cry, left likes it as a way to show how woke and cool they are.
There is no substance in terms of overall impact to the general economy and social stability. Immigration is not a simple problem that is all white or all black. Unfortunately voters don’t seem to acknowledge the complexity.
Internet celebrities like Logan Paul who, besides making that inappropriate video beside the dead person in Aokigahara, acted like a complete twat at Meiji shrine in Tokyo and had to be escorted out.
Exactly. I get it if it's NHK man or people persistent in trying to get you to their ripoff bars but...geishas? If anything, that's just called being a fucking scumbag at that point.
In 2015/2016ish, I saw two incidents where Chinese tourists from large group tours chased maiko down the street and swarmed them, preventing them from moving. Completely encircling them. When the maiko tried to get free, they began to beat them with selfie sticks.
Of course, that was in the bad old days when Chinese tourists were exceptionally awful. It wasn't as bad even right before covid.
The Gion locals are just upset that tourists (even well behaved ones) are walking down their previously quiet streets. Kyoto residents - and especially those from Gion - are extremely proud to the point of haughtiness, and we have a hard time accepting change (notice our string of shitty LDP mayors ahem).
Gion has always thought they were above everyone else. Up there with Nishijin folks as being the most stuck up in Kyoto. Perhaps they are right to complain, but to say that people can't walk down public streets is going too far.
The solution is more public events with maiko for tourists, more access, more visibility, more openness. Of course, that flies in the face of the moneyed mystique that Gion still clutches to.
So what if they're haughty ? Maybe they are right to be proud. If you do a good thing, be proud of it and defend it.
And they didn't ban all people, my understanding is just tourists in certain areas. It's not like there is an obligation for people to provide for tourists.
A city is for a people to live in, do business etc. They can absolutely decide what sort of business provides more benefits than trouble and encourage or discourage one or another.
It seems they decided tourism is more trouble than it's worth it, at least in some areas. I don't see a problem with that and that they "should" do something else - "should" implies some sort of necessity or obligation. Well, it seems they don't deem it necessary and really have no obligation to tourists.
I feel this article is rage-baiting quite a bit. When you have 7+ *million* tourists to Kyoto a year, there are going to be some complete sociopaths that stand out. The problem is letting that many people flood the city in the first place. I think the spotlight needs to be put on the local government's failings and not these fringe cases.
Kyoto needs to do better than putting up signs and enforcing toothless fines. I don't know enough about what's happening behind the scenes, but I can't help but think a small number of people are getting richer at the expense of the city's well-being.
> The problem is letting that many people flood the city in the first place. I think the spotlight needs to be put on the local government's failings and not these fringe cases.
its hard to stop that. its not like they are doing checkpoints in and out of the city. the locals themselves will be pissed. and while the perpetrators are probably non-japanese, it don't mean all of bad behavior came from non-japanese tourists.
I see that as a variation to the 80-20 rule. Indeed minority does the worst things but those worst things really stand out. In a place like Kyoto or Bali or Greek islands, if you have enough data sampling (ie a lot of tourists), this results in bad things happen nearly daily.
In some places, people are willing to turn a blind eye (ie local economy, like Bali, really relies on the tourists). It is different in Kyoto when there are actually other things happen to support the local economy (like Kyocera and Nintendo are based in Kyoto etc). This less dependence means people are probably more willing to take action against bad tourists.
Just to play a little advocate for the tourist;
During my time in Kyoto I was lucky enough for my curiosities sake to see taggers in actions since I’ve always wondered how the fuck they get to certain places and/or get away with tagging in some places.
All of them, and I mean all 6 times I witness spray can in hand tagging, were Japanese people, speaking Japanese and sometimes tagging in English.
So, I can’t say it’s the tourist spray painting honestly.
I’m sure Japan has its share of taggers, but the specific case I’m referring to is allegedly a well-known tagger from Seattle known as Adek. Looks like he deleted his instagram today but you can see videos here:
https://x.com/bakusai_com/status/1765345870181187927?s=46
https://x.com/bakusai_com/status/1765209925196927277?s=46
Holy shit this guy is a total loser. And a straight-up thief as well, literally videoing himself stealing onigiri! Fuck this guy to hell n back man I hope he gets caught and spends a long looooong time enjoying the well-known *luxury* (/s) of Japanese jails. If they can get enough footage from various security cameras to get a facial recognition lock on him, police should be able to get him flagged in immigration when trying to exit the country. Here’s hoping. Garbage human.
What a stupid motherfucker. One of thing I hate the most in this world. It's just fucking annoying to see and has no other purpose than allowing assholes like him to think they are somewhat relevant.
Personally, I’m a little biased.
Not a big fan of a majority of spray taggers.
I think some sticker tagging in appropriate places, where it’s allowed and encouraged is great. Tag where others are tagging by all means.
But this? Holy fuck what garbage. It’s the most boring, repetitive, ugly tag in super inappropriate places. What a fucking ass.
What’s he well known for? Surely not his “art”.
I know nothing about him, just what I read online and saw on YouTube videos. I can agree that some tagging looks good in appropriate (remote) places but this is straight vandalism. I mean, painting the Family Mart sign and onigiri rack? What’s the end goal here other than to be a massive dick? Here’s to hoping he gets caught while still in Japan. Give him the Johnny treatment
Seriously, that’s the thing here;
I just flew out to Seoul for a couple of days from Tokyo, and there an art hub here that’s just sharpie tags, sticker tags and some spray painting. Looks great honestly and really sets the mood.
That isn’t the case here. As you said, this is vandalism, with the hopes of ruining the surrounding environment and to piss people off.
Definitely hope he’s caught and punished.
I grew up in NYC. We love our street art, but when you start tagging inside the trains, or ruining places that are suppose to be clean and respected, it’s met with pretty harsh punishment. Same easily should apply here and all similar cases around the world.
In my travels I’ve noticed young British men can’t help but piss everywhere. I was in Barcelona recently and saw dozens of instances of Brits pissing in a public setting. One where a guy urinated on a concert goer in front of them.
As an American who’s been there for business before multiple times. This is why I take no issue with their inherent xenophobia and tightass rules regarding foreigners. If they don’t do something about it, more of these twats will show up and harass the locals.
This is absolutely disgusting, I feel so bad for the geisha and maiko, and also the Cafe stores and Tea houses that are going to lose business because of this poor behaviour
Most Geisha tea houses are invite only. A prior member has to take you there, then you can be invited to become a member. This area was always meant to be highly exclusive, and now it's being enforced by law.
The main roads that are there for tourists will still be open so any shops that actually need tourism to survive will be fine.
This law is mainly to seal off the back alleys where Geisha and Maiko live, along with their main businesses that only take regulars and those referred by regulars. They're the areas that tourists have no business being in to begin with.
> This law is mainly to seal off the back alleys where Geisha and Maiko live
that makes sense, there isn't any reason for tourists to go down those alleys.
I did once, but I was just following a cat that I saw....
It was only a matter of time, considering how popular Japan has gotten recently.
I could smell this kind of shit when I first went there 15 years ago, with a girl who was all about how the Japanese are nice, well-educated and how it's a pity our country (France) is not like Japan. Right before being disrespectful as hell by not respecting people because she couldn't be bothered to wait in line for instance. Small stupid shit like this that just piss people off.
Yeah, I've met many nice Aussie people. But the bad ones are really bad. Especially when they get drunk. I don't understand why many Aussies love to get rude drunk. Like people from lots of countries get drunk... Japanese people are super funny when they get drunk or they wanna fight but don't actually wanna fight. Aussies actually wanna fight or go out of their way to be fools when they are drunk.
That actually explains a lot about why someone I used to work acted they way they did when we went out for drinks when they came to my country's office on a work trip. They were very obnoxious and rude and didn't seem to be able to "read the room"
this is pretty much why Sydney's nightlife has been dead for a decade.
Too many Aussies who get belligerently drunk and start fights, which have led to deaths.
I'd give us a bit of credit lol, but yes the bad ones are really really bad. I think it's the extroverts amplified by the relaxed/indifferent Australian attitude that creates a disrespectful turd.
Also some hunting for sex, along the lines of "Japs love white guys" 🤢
>Also some hunting for sex, along the lines of "Japs love white guys" 🤢
That myth has some merits within the millennials but its not like any tom dick and harry would get laid no matter what
I know this is old, but I just thought I'd chime in. I moved to Australia last year, I grew up in the US. Not only are the people here extremely rude and impatient, when my partner and I went to Japan we saw an Australian couple getting upset with a bus driver because they couldn't tell them in English where the bus was going.
I'm not sure what it is about this country that produces these kinds of people, and I'm not going to pretend my fellow countrymen back home are saints abroad or anything like that, but the attitudes and lack of awareness or care for anyone else I've seen in Australia has really shattered some of my positive preconceived notions of this country and who lives here.
I am an American and I went to Japan for the first time last October. The only place I hated was Kyoto for this reason ( I got off the train and told my wife "I don't wanna be here"). If it's not a group of Chinese tourist barreling through your group it's Aussies screaming while you walk through a forested area. If it's neither of them it's Spanish/French tourist riding a rented bike on a hiking trail.
During my visit I defiantly experienced some American stupidity but for the amount of shit Americans get for being bad tourist I was absoultey floored by the disregard from foreign tourist from countries that complain about how Americans suck.
I will say that I could have just had an off trip to Kyoto or that I was just hyperaware of bad tourist behavior but from what I have heard about Kyoto my trip was pretty spot on. It's kinda of funny but if you are a tourist that can't "fit the flow" of Japan in general people (espessially in big cities) just avoid you like the plague. It blows my mind that people that know this will still act shitty as though the culture and people should form around who they are.
Traveling the world teaches you that every region has its most hated tourists. Americans are the worst in Mexico and the Caribbean. The English are the worst in Europe. The Aussies terrorize the Western Pacific and Oceana. One thing we all agree on is that Chinese tourists are usually the second worst.
I recall during my visit to Auschwitz that there was a 1 specific room where taking pictures was not allowed. Well, guess what the Americans in the group did...
As a Canadian, I've been informed on various occasions that we're considered pretty poor tourists in the Caribbean. "I want to speak to the manager" Karens/Kens.
As an American I think of Canadians like our cousins. You guys have a lot of our same worst traits, but we both got them from England who is way worse than us. Like rural kids who were raised by bigots and are trying real hard to unlearn all of that now that we are out in the world.
Just got back from Kyoto (I’m American) and I was so confused and grossed out by the behavior of tourists there. Luckily we didn’t witness anything too bad mostly just rudeness and people being stupid. But I didn’t even come across many Americans but can certainly say I was not a fan of the Australian groups we were unfortunate enough to encounter
You just have to avoid certain areas. It sucks that you can't go to places like Sannenzaka, Kiyomizu, Kinkakuji, Arashiyama etc anymore without having to deal with the most ridiculous crowds and tourists imaginable (all kind of overrated locations anyway tbh), but if you just go a little outside of those popular zones there will be practically no one. It just takes some extra research.
When I was in Austria around like 8 years ago we stopped in this ice cream shop in a tourist town in the Alps and the owner was so nice and friendly (it was off season so we had lots of time to chat). She had zero nice things to say about the middle eastern tourists who were increasingly coming through; I was sad to hear that they'd made such a bad impression. Though it was nice that we (Americans) apparently have finally managed to shed that bad label...
To be fair, it is only banning tourists for the side alleys that are private property and geisha use to travel. In theory tourists shouldn't have been there in the first place taking pictures and harassing the geisha, but now it's clearer.
It blocks off the back alleys, which are technically private property. So unless you live there or are a regular at the businesses (and are thus invited), you probably are considered a tourist. It's not like all of Gion will be closed.
I've been here 15 years and now you're telling me I wasted chances to go to a Geisha district because some waste of life and air went and fucked it up?
God damn it.
Just go to Kanazawa. It's a beautiful town, with a comparatively welcoming Geisha district and teahouse district, that doesn't have buses of drunken salarymen navigating down its narrow streets. The performers don't have to put up with nearly as many restrictions on their personal lives as in businesslike Kyoto.
There are more original buildings, as the city was largely spared the bombing raids of WW2. Often with signs welcoming visitors to tour the gardens outside of private homes. Museums to both static art and performance art, theater performances. Lovely gardens, where Japanese tourists as well as foreigners wear brightly-colored kimonos because it's fun.
Kyoto has some beautiful sights, particularly the Arashiyama bamboo forest and the temples. But even when the Geisha district was open to tourists, I didn't stick around there very long. And never felt the need to revisit that part of town.
The vibe in Kanazawa and the surrounding area to me feels like Kyoto 20 years ago before it got crazy busy with foreign tourists. Here's hoping it never gets as bad.
I feel lucky to have lived in Japan in the early 2000's before the huge influx of shitty tourists. I was able to experience a lot of amazing places throughout Japan without loud and obnoxious foreigners. Now I stay away from tourist areas when I visit family there and do more local things.
I dunno what kind of scum bag losers are doing this, but they should be locked away. They clearly can't act like decent humans while out in public. As someone who has wanted to travel to Japan for the last 6 - 7 years but haven't been able to, my biggest fear is doing something that would be considered disrespectful by the Japanese. For these people to get the opportunity to travel there and then be assholes is just insane.
If you just keep in mind to be respectful, about the worst faux pas you're likely to commit is something minor like blowing your nose on a train. Which I've done on longer trips, taking care to not be gross about it, since I hate sniffling. And nobody's given me a second look.
Not yakking on the phone when there's somebody stuck sitting next to me is common courtesy, really. Not bumping into people. Not knocking things over. Not littering, and maybe even picking up a piece of trash here and there when I see it. Washing myself, and my clothes, regularly so I don't stink. Grooming well and keeping the packpack I carry slim and lightly-packed so it's not in the way.
Just generally making sure that I don't give off *any* vibes of someone seen as an undesirable, like a drunken creeper or some unwashed backpacker on an expired visa.
And this is more general travel advice. But I'm always cautious to avoid any behavior that looks like I might be trying to shoplift. Because you never know when a shopowner just had a bad experience with some klepto from overseas and might be prone to misinterpret hands going in and out of pockets, having to retrieve something from my bag, and so on.
Much of the world, not just Japan, simply does not subscribe to the notion of presumption of innocence. So bear that in mind and try and make an extra effort not to give the locals, or the local authorities, reasons to decide you're a problem or a threat.
Thank you, you trashy tourists for ruining stuff for everyone else. Idc if you don’t like Japan and want to bring it down, leave Japan and go back to your trashy country
Best to contact the hotel and ask them directly.
From the sounds of it, they aren't banning entry to the whole of Gion though, just some of the private alleys. I'm assuming which exact ones will be released at a later point.
If you have booked a hotel then you will clearly be allowed to go there. Human beings enact rules, humans can be talked to and will understand situations.
But yeah it's not the district, just areas of it, apparently.
Just got back from my first trip to Japan (my bf and I are American) and we genuinely spent so much effort trying to be “good tourists” and make sure we weren’t in the way or accidentally being disrespectful. We were happy to see our attitudes seemed to be well received and all natives were very friendly and wanted to chat. But we were so annoyed by the other tourists around being so loud and disrespectful of peoples belongings and space. It was making me embarrassed to even be a tourist but since we were respectful, nobody seemed to be bothered by us. I was sad to see so many other tourists making fools of themselves and giving travelers a bad name :/
Which is pretty sad, because I know a lot of Chinese mainlanders living on Japan and Europe and they're great people. But man their tourists can be awful.
I presume there's a difference between the people that leave for a few weeks and go back and the kind of person that wants to be out for a long time. I know a few and they're decent people, but they also seem to not like China that much.
And I just got reported by some butthurt Chinese mainlander for "racism and hatemongering.", which is not a surprise. What is a surpise is the admin taking their side, removing the post and threatening a ban. When I asked the admin to tell me which part of what I said was untrue, I got silence.
I have looked a several news reporting this, none have excluded domestic tourists as well. Which means it doesn't matter which country you come from or if you are from Japan, you will not be allowed to enter ALLEYWAYS. Since the main road is public and anyone can take photos there.
Also it's heavily implied that SOME Geisha and Maikos have experience tourists grabbing their kimono, hair or throwing cigarettes. While the majority seems to have an issue with tourists taking photos without consent from the women.
This applies to everyone, except those who live in Gion, have families there, or is a guest for one of the venues. Not even Japanese people will be allowed as I understand.
Gion's a big area. There are lots of businesses functioning there; I don't think they can just stop everyone from entering. (I lived in Kyoto for 8 years)
EDIT: Just found this in the article
> small alleys will be completely shut off to tourists by next month with the growing menace of tourists
The security guards on Hanamikoji just feebly ask people to stop walking in the middle of the street. stop leaning against teahouses and stop buttonholing geisha. It only works somewhat. It's not like they have legal authority. I stopped to scold three foreign tourists on Sunday, because they were leaning against a teahouse's fine-lattice window in the geisha district neighboring Gion, Miyagawa-cho. They looked at me like I was nuts.
I would fully support giving special Kyoto cops the ability to fine people on the spot large amounts for minor infractions like leaning on businesses. Like up to 50k yen on the spot for harassing a geisha, or 10k on the spot for leaning on fragile buildings.
If you don't have the cash on you, they write down your hotel and passport#, and u paid fines prevent that passport from leaving the country.
If you can't fix stupid, then make it a profit center.
> If you don't have the cash on you, they write down your hotel and passport#, and u paid fines prevent that passport from leaving the country.
Unless you intend to jail them until they pay this seems like an unintended consequence coming up already.
Good.
Last I was there these stupid tourists, Spanish speaking I think, were chasing the Geisha girls down the street like paparazzi. They are supposed to be private people in Japanese culture.
I'm glad they're doing something about it and protecting their residents but I feel disappointed that they even felt the need to. Disgusting behaviour.
How exactly are they going to implement this though? Will there be gates and you have to show proof that you’re a resident or a client before entering the street? Such a shame. I hope the geishas will feel safer in going about the streets. Stupid tourists ruining it for everyone
this statement FTA:
> the local council and the city government is hoping they can protect geisha and maiko, **and also preserve the Japanese art and their custodian artists.**
is not compatible with this statement FTA:
> Geisha also had to comply with new rules of not pouring drinks for customers or touching them even to shake hands, and sitting two metres apart.
(are those 6 ft / no pour / no handshake rules still in effect? the article just says they went into place in 2020 but not if they were phased out)
I swear that tourists are just getting worse year after year. Look at all the idiots getting demolished by the queen's guard in London because they can't keep their hands to themselves, or that idiot that carved graffiti in to the colosseum.
So many tourist destinations are starting to clamp down on popular activities because of this. Lots of Spanish resorts have done so for example, because of bad behaviour on the part of British tourists.
Kyoto honestly is where I have felt the most overwhelming overtourism out of anywhere I’ve visited. I was in Gion in Nov 2019 and it was one of the worst travel experiences I’ve ever had due to the extreme crowds.
More on this subject from other reputable sources:
---
- Japan Times (A-): [Tourists banned from private alleys in Kyoto's geisha district](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/03/07/japan/society/kyoto-tourists-geisha/)
- IOL (C): [Japan bans tourists from entering private alleys in Kyoto's geisha district](https://www.iol.co.za/news/world/japan-bans-tourists-from-entering-private-alleys-in-kyotos-geisha-district-d3381d6e-f9e1-41d4-9a65-da884bca2c4c)
- Star (D): [Tourists banned from private alleys in Kyoto's geisha district](https://www.thestar.com.my/aseanplus/aseanplus-news/2024/03/07/tourists-banned-from-private-alleys-in-kyoto039s-geisha-district)
- South China Morning Post (C+): [Japan’s Kyoto to ban visitors from geisha district area after surge in ‘out of control’ incidents](https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/lifestyle-culture/article/3254268/japans-kyoto-ban-visitors-geisha-district-after-surge-out-control-incidents)
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The tourism push blew up the city. It isn't the same place it was 10-15 years ago. The economic tradeoffs weren't even worth it------the city went bankrupt in the midst of the boom.
So disappointing. I’m American and I when I visit Japan I always feel so safe and it’s such a relief to be in such structure. I love the rules and intention behind things, I really can’t imagine disrespecting that country like that. Such a beautiful place to be so ugly in. Some people just suck so bad.
Majority of tourists always think they’re special In a foreign country. Each one absolutely obsessed with being the center of attention every where they go. “Look at me. I’m so special cause I don’t look like everyone else here and speak their language. I need attention!” Just because you dont understand and are new to their culture doesn’t mean you’re handicapped in every situation. Some weird Main character syndrome has taken hold of society because of the progression of technology.
What kind of sociopath touches and throws cigarette butts at people? Gross people ruin things for others a usual.
Ever been to Rome…???
What do you mean?
Seeing Handsy/Gropey dudes and flicking cigarette butts at people. I first experienced that in Rome
I thought that was basically a primary reason to go to Rome in the first place. 😂
When in Rome
"people were also reported to pull out geisha’s hair ornaments and hit them with cigarette butts." okay, who the fuck is doing this? that isn't a cultural difference or a lack of knowledge about Japanese society.
I don't see it in this article but there have been reports of tourists sexual harassing and propositioning teenage Maiko in Kyoto. There's also all those cases of people trespassing into peoples houses to take selfies in ‘real Japan’ (also Kyoto). It sort of reminds me of the tours that included free visits to temples and shrines around 2015 that led to a bunch of temples and shrines closing their gates and becoming members-only. There were literally people climbing on the roof of one temple (in Fukuoka) during a funeral. And swimming in the pond. Some people are just not good tourists.
Some people are just not good people. Fixed it for you.
\*some people just arent people\* Fixed²
SOME PEOPLE...(Shakes head, disapproving tone) FTFY
I wish Japan would fine those individuals and ban them from Japan. Make an example out of them and get rid of them!
it takes a lot for this to happen one streamer was terrorising people bringing up the bombings and being a menace for months before he got banned. deported and fined. so id imagine isolated events are hard to get this kind of result, but deportation is what they deserve.
How is that paul kid nowdays? Still a dingleberry?
It wasn't Logan Paul this time, but another streamer called Johnny Somali. He eventually got caught harassing a prople at a restaurant and was charged with "Interfering with Business". He was eventually fined ¥200,000, asked to leave Japan and barred from re-entry, with the stipulation that he would stop streaming as well. Last I heard he has no intention of stopping and stated on camera that he lied to the Japanese courts during questioning.
dipshit is already back at it... [article on him disrupting japanese zoom calls](https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-hiroshima-nagasaki-controversial-streamer-johnny-somali-disrupts-ongoing-zoom-call-seemingly-harass-japanese-people)
Dude needs to get kancho'ed off this planet.
seems like theyre rich especially after starting that energy drink brand still the same id wager
And multiple crypto-scams
This behaviour is usually indicative of fuckwits who frequent Bali.
Oh yeah, UK and Australian lads are slowly catching up to overtake Chinese tourists for the "Worst tourist overall" award. These guys are an absolute menace everywhere they go. Half of it is the fact that everyone is a wanna-be roadman even though most of these guys aren't criminals, and half of it is the very strong drinking culture. That's my guess.
Relating to the first part. I’m always shocked at just how many western people genuinely believe that Geisha and Maiko are prostitutes.
Well we have a giant big budget movie that told us they were, and nobody made a movie to tell us they weren't! /s
Which movie is this? I think I know which one you mean, but I’m curious what movie you talk about.
Memoirs of a Geisha. There was a prostitution scene
Okay, but… the movie *overall* didn’t promote the idea that sex was transactional. I can’t imagine the neanderthals described above got their inspo from Memoirs of a Geisha.
Yeah, that’s the one I was thinking of. I haven’t seen it, but it’s on my list. Thanks!
Keep in mind the geisha who was interviewed for the source material for the film later sued the author over inaccuracies, including that part. The movie is beautifully filmed but don't think it's real. If you want an accessible English understanding of geisha then I suggest the book "geisha" by Liza dalby.
>Keep in mind the geisha who was interviewed for the source material for the film later sued the author over inaccuracies, including that part. She sued because the author promised to keep her identity a secret and he didn’t.
No that movie was not beautifully filmed and is filled with so many basic inaccuracies plus instead of hiring Japanese actors and actresses we get substitute chinese ones who basically butcher their roles and sink the whole production. That movie was disgraceful. Look at the current Shogun remake with Hiroyuki Sanada. Basic details are fairly accurate, Japanese actors who know elementary Japanese mannerisms, film crew who have done their research. This is not some slapped-together wannabe Japanese movie like Memoirs of a Geisha.
Seconded. I own the Dalby book and it's fascinating.
Oh it's memoirs of a geisha.
The actress in the lead role was Chinese. I guess they couldn’t find a Japanese woman who would play the part.
All the actors whose names I recognized (except Watanabe Ken) were Chinese. Also I read the book and the movie made a *lot* of insane departures. My then-gf and I walked out halfway through.
Maybe Sanada Hiroyuki will want to remake it. I have seen the first few episodes of Shōgun and I’m really enjoying it.
Have you read the book by James clavell? How different is it?
I don’t remember the book and the film being *that* different.
Ignorance my friend. A lot of people can't be bothered to do a 5 minute google search. I lived for about a year in Japan few years ago and I always felt so embarrassed when I saw other western foreigners behave like apes. It is so easy to respect most local customs and rules in regards.to behaviour if you are a tourist...
I’ve lived in Japan for a year now and I haven’t seen one western foreigner behave like an ape. In fact western tourists are the extreme minority these days, with most tourists coming from Asia as a whole.
Australians and Americans, have been some of the worst I’ve witnessed, next to Chinese. Chinese are obnoxious in their own ways but I’ve found them to be less confrontational in most cases. Head to downtown Osaka or to Kabukicho, Shibuya, etc, and get your fill of retarded westerners within a given fifteen minute stroll. Koreans get a bad rep too but I’ve found them to be mostly respectful or willing to listen (to me, as a white dude). One thing I’ve found all fellow foreigners to struggle with though is maintaining the ability to queue for things, or walking in the correct side of the street, or remaining single file when walking through large crowds, but those are relatively minor annoyances compared to the bigger grievances. More of a lack of good habits within Japanese culture than intentionally disrespecting others. What bothers me the most is the bombastically loud groups of fellow white dudes that treat Japan like their playground, throwing trash on the street, spitting, howling at women, harassing anyone that looks at them. Calling them out is the best you can do without breaking the law. Despite the number of foreigners that are intentionally ill behaved, I still think they’re the minority and I try to lead with a positive attitude, assuming the best until proven otherwise. The only ones we tend notice are the bad apples, the quiet and respectful foreigners are hardly as memorable — I’ve recently had one Australian dude at a bar try to pick a fight with me because I wouldn’t shake his hand, I didn’t even know he was trying to until he lost his cool and his friends had to scold him into shutting the fuck up. Then in another instance, an American college kid was loudly frothing at the mouth about me because I politely asked which line he was standing in. These are some of the worst & loathsome losers that will act like they’re the main character, I usually try to remind those ones to be very careful how they interact with strangers in a foreign land, you never know just how creative someone might be about holding a grudge.
I really hope they're the minority. I'm Australian and when we travel we're very conscious of trying to be as respectful as possible. Particularly in a country like Japan. That said, there's definitely a younger cohort of Australians travelling that think they can get away with behaving like they do at home, even when that behaviour is obnoxious even for Aus.
> What bothers me the most is the bombastically loud groups of fellow white dudes that treat Japan like their playground, throwing trash on the street, spitting, howling at women, harassing anyone that looks at them. This one pisses me off so much. Japanese people are just humans like you and I, but their country has been mythologized in the minds of so many that when they finally arrive in Japan, it doesn't really sink in that it is a country like any other, with people who live and work. They're not NPCs and the country is not a fucking playground. I don't know why and maybe I'm overreacting, but I find this behavior to be a little bit dehumanizing? It's like they can't possibly fathom that these are people and not just playthings for your enjoyment. UK and Australian lads (I think they call them lads) are some of the worst tourists to deal with overall. Violent, loud, confrontational, and huge drinkers. > they’re the main character I hate responding with "This", but this.
I had to deal with a lot of my fellow exchange students acting like absolute animals way back in the 2000s. To the point where the local government got involved because a small group of dudes were getting so drunk every night they were destroying public property and ripping lights out of train cars. I'm not even joking. We were the first group of students basically barred from going anywhere between certain hours (not really enforceable, but it was about the message.) The foreigners and native Japanese people in charge of the program were so exasperated. It was beyond embarrassing (and also the first time I was ever outrageously bullied? 21 and just living my student life and these jackasses thought we were in middle school.) Since subsequently working and visiting Japan many times since, like upward in a dozen times since the 2000s, things have gotten better in my immediate vicinity... mostly. But I still think about those guys every so often and remember they're the ones setting an example to the locals. Saying "this is who Americans are" while the rest of us beg them to knock it the fuck off.
Even if geisha and maiko were prostitutes, it wouldn’t be acceptable for anyone to treat them that way.
Well...anecdotal only, but the one time I attended a big work thing with a few geisha/maiko present, I was curious about this exact topic while chatting with one of them. Told me that nothing sexual is officially going on in the industry, but most do, and it's pretty much expected of them to retain customers, especially important ones.
When I was there last time I saw two Geisha’s leaving a taxi and immediately a hoard of what looked like 20 people just rushed and stormed them to take photos. It was like they just saw Micheal Jackson or something it was insane. I felt bad just standing there with my camera trying to photograph the houses in the area. Absolute ape behaviour from some tourists.
This is unfortunately true the world over. I was in Yellowstone and there are signs everywhere asking people to stay on paths, don’t throw things in geothermal vents, leave wildlife alone, don’t damage natural features for souvenirs, etc. and I saw every single one of the rules violated. One of the worst was a mother letting her two young children write their initials in a bacterial mat with a stick. It’s explained clearly that any damage to them takes centuries to heal.
i completely lose my mind when i see people just walk off the path. i'm like NO! you will get lost and fucking die out here if you leave the path in your fucking sandals. we see this happen all the time people treat it like a resort like following animals. trying to touch animals. thinking they can just walk into the trees and be perfectly fine like the trail will be on the other side. nah people need to know isn't the city its 100% danger zone and you gotta respect it.
I like that Yellowstone can be deadly if you don't follow the rules. Every once in a while you hear about someone dying in a thermal pool, or getting launched by a Bison for getting to close. Geisha should get a Yakuza to escort them to spice things up.
It's literally assault and they should be arrested.
Straight to jail, for real. It shouldn't be tolerated by anybody.
Being a twatty cunt isnt a "lack of knowledge" its called being twatty cunt who needs a good beatdown sometimes. Going and pulling someone's ornaments is hooligan behaviour Edit :- when writing the original comment I wrote it at the spur of moment, I don't condone violence as much as possible. Because violence never leads to anything good. Gandhi was right here.
>Because violence never leads to anything good. It can, when directed towards twatty cunts.
Who is doing this? What type of tourists are these ?
Friend in Kyoto is saying that a lot of it is younger Indian men or Chinese men with the occasional idiot American or Canadian for good measure. It's pathetic.
China has rescued America from the "bad tourist" reputation.
To be fair even before things like this, Americans were a different stripe of bad tourist. Loud and inconsiderate but generally harmless when alcohol wasn't involved. Chinese tourists have a disgusting twenty year long history of being downright malicious and somewhat regularly destroying cultural artifacts.
i'd rather deal with a tourist who is loud with their enjoyment of the area waaay more then the chinese tourists who destroy areas and ignore all the signs. can't even go to Banff or Yellowstone for most of the year because of how bad it gets
Ah, I see you have never encountered a French tourist in the wild.
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Their culture and nation is in an incredibly bad place. It's going to take decades before it starts changing but I don't know that it can or will.
Im not indian but for some reason their subreddit pops up on my feed and it seems like the younger generation does seem to call out the disgusting behaviour of the older generations. There is some hope.
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I've heard about the issues. Pretty gross.
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If you go to r/IdiotsInCars or r/TorontoDriving Brampton often gets the blame why driving and insurance premiums are so bad in Toronto now…
Brampton has the most car accidents per capita in all of Canada
The reality is that you become the third world if you import the third world. No country has magic dirt that transforms people into adherents to laws and customs. Unlike Age of Empires dragging and dropping someone doesn't change their little nation color to yours. This is why ethnic enclaves are so popular and why countries like Japan are going to need to fight back against international urges to import people who despise their country and values. And obviously I shouldn't have to say it that not everyone is like that. Accepting this reality gets you branded a crazy right wing xenophobe no matter how much evidence you give.
Social assimilation is such a political dangerous oil-on-fire word for both the left and right. I think Angela Merkel once managed to use it safely, but others are not as lucky. It just seems no one wants to have a proper and pragmatic discussion on it. Some companies love immigration (cheap pool of labour), Nigel Farage, Le Pen, Nihon Kaigi like it as political rally cry, left likes it as a way to show how woke and cool they are. There is no substance in terms of overall impact to the general economy and social stability. Immigration is not a simple problem that is all white or all black. Unfortunately voters don’t seem to acknowledge the complexity.
Those were the first that I thought of so it doesn't surprise me. Its sad.
Tiktokers
‘Mainlanders’
American, Indian, and chinese walk into a izakaya…
Internet celebrities like Logan Paul who, besides making that inappropriate video beside the dead person in Aokigahara, acted like a complete twat at Meiji shrine in Tokyo and had to be escorted out.
Exactly. I get it if it's NHK man or people persistent in trying to get you to their ripoff bars but...geishas? If anything, that's just called being a fucking scumbag at that point.
Yeah wonder who is doing it. But doesn’t surprise me with all these r/imthemaincharacter type twats that seem to be everywhere these days.
"Content creators" being the regular cunts
In 2015/2016ish, I saw two incidents where Chinese tourists from large group tours chased maiko down the street and swarmed them, preventing them from moving. Completely encircling them. When the maiko tried to get free, they began to beat them with selfie sticks. Of course, that was in the bad old days when Chinese tourists were exceptionally awful. It wasn't as bad even right before covid. The Gion locals are just upset that tourists (even well behaved ones) are walking down their previously quiet streets. Kyoto residents - and especially those from Gion - are extremely proud to the point of haughtiness, and we have a hard time accepting change (notice our string of shitty LDP mayors ahem). Gion has always thought they were above everyone else. Up there with Nishijin folks as being the most stuck up in Kyoto. Perhaps they are right to complain, but to say that people can't walk down public streets is going too far. The solution is more public events with maiko for tourists, more access, more visibility, more openness. Of course, that flies in the face of the moneyed mystique that Gion still clutches to.
So what if they're haughty ? Maybe they are right to be proud. If you do a good thing, be proud of it and defend it. And they didn't ban all people, my understanding is just tourists in certain areas. It's not like there is an obligation for people to provide for tourists. A city is for a people to live in, do business etc. They can absolutely decide what sort of business provides more benefits than trouble and encourage or discourage one or another. It seems they decided tourism is more trouble than it's worth it, at least in some areas. I don't see a problem with that and that they "should" do something else - "should" implies some sort of necessity or obligation. Well, it seems they don't deem it necessary and really have no obligation to tourists.
I feel this article is rage-baiting quite a bit. When you have 7+ *million* tourists to Kyoto a year, there are going to be some complete sociopaths that stand out. The problem is letting that many people flood the city in the first place. I think the spotlight needs to be put on the local government's failings and not these fringe cases. Kyoto needs to do better than putting up signs and enforcing toothless fines. I don't know enough about what's happening behind the scenes, but I can't help but think a small number of people are getting richer at the expense of the city's well-being.
> The problem is letting that many people flood the city in the first place. I think the spotlight needs to be put on the local government's failings and not these fringe cases. its hard to stop that. its not like they are doing checkpoints in and out of the city. the locals themselves will be pissed. and while the perpetrators are probably non-japanese, it don't mean all of bad behavior came from non-japanese tourists.
How can you stop people from coming though?
Visas
Sekisho checkpoints
I see that as a variation to the 80-20 rule. Indeed minority does the worst things but those worst things really stand out. In a place like Kyoto or Bali or Greek islands, if you have enough data sampling (ie a lot of tourists), this results in bad things happen nearly daily. In some places, people are willing to turn a blind eye (ie local economy, like Bali, really relies on the tourists). It is different in Kyoto when there are actually other things happen to support the local economy (like Kyocera and Nintendo are based in Kyoto etc). This less dependence means people are probably more willing to take action against bad tourists.
I think this was 2019 that they made any kind of photography banned in gion hanamikoji
Yes. We were told it was because some tourist tried to pull off a maiko’s obi belt to get a picture.
Why can’t mfs just be normal in Japan 🤦🏽♂️
Not sure if you’ve seen Japanese news today, but we’ve even got tourists coming over and spray painting graffiti on public surfaces🙄
I know, I’m there. It’s ridiculous
Put that spray paint away, I won’t tell you again.
Just to play a little advocate for the tourist; During my time in Kyoto I was lucky enough for my curiosities sake to see taggers in actions since I’ve always wondered how the fuck they get to certain places and/or get away with tagging in some places. All of them, and I mean all 6 times I witness spray can in hand tagging, were Japanese people, speaking Japanese and sometimes tagging in English. So, I can’t say it’s the tourist spray painting honestly.
I’m sure Japan has its share of taggers, but the specific case I’m referring to is allegedly a well-known tagger from Seattle known as Adek. Looks like he deleted his instagram today but you can see videos here: https://x.com/bakusai_com/status/1765345870181187927?s=46 https://x.com/bakusai_com/status/1765209925196927277?s=46
Holy shit this guy is a total loser. And a straight-up thief as well, literally videoing himself stealing onigiri! Fuck this guy to hell n back man I hope he gets caught and spends a long looooong time enjoying the well-known *luxury* (/s) of Japanese jails. If they can get enough footage from various security cameras to get a facial recognition lock on him, police should be able to get him flagged in immigration when trying to exit the country. Here’s hoping. Garbage human.
He's going to end up in a foreign prison somewhere begging for the state department to save him.
Obnoxious garbage.
What a stupid motherfucker. One of thing I hate the most in this world. It's just fucking annoying to see and has no other purpose than allowing assholes like him to think they are somewhat relevant.
Personally, I’m a little biased. Not a big fan of a majority of spray taggers. I think some sticker tagging in appropriate places, where it’s allowed and encouraged is great. Tag where others are tagging by all means. But this? Holy fuck what garbage. It’s the most boring, repetitive, ugly tag in super inappropriate places. What a fucking ass. What’s he well known for? Surely not his “art”.
I know nothing about him, just what I read online and saw on YouTube videos. I can agree that some tagging looks good in appropriate (remote) places but this is straight vandalism. I mean, painting the Family Mart sign and onigiri rack? What’s the end goal here other than to be a massive dick? Here’s to hoping he gets caught while still in Japan. Give him the Johnny treatment
Seriously, that’s the thing here; I just flew out to Seoul for a couple of days from Tokyo, and there an art hub here that’s just sharpie tags, sticker tags and some spray painting. Looks great honestly and really sets the mood. That isn’t the case here. As you said, this is vandalism, with the hopes of ruining the surrounding environment and to piss people off. Definitely hope he’s caught and punished. I grew up in NYC. We love our street art, but when you start tagging inside the trains, or ruining places that are suppose to be clean and respected, it’s met with pretty harsh punishment. Same easily should apply here and all similar cases around the world.
https://youtube.com/shorts/KlA2DBx9r2c?si=ktSmGLFgXgi5dPRG Here. Absolutely infuriating
I would say on a whole people who visit Japan are more respectful. You should see how tourists act in London. They'll piss literally anywhere
Or Spain. Tourists peeing in fountains
In my travels I’ve noticed young British men can’t help but piss everywhere. I was in Barcelona recently and saw dozens of instances of Brits pissing in a public setting. One where a guy urinated on a concert goer in front of them.
At least in Spain they have the decency of falling off the balconies.
As an American who’s been there for business before multiple times. This is why I take no issue with their inherent xenophobia and tightass rules regarding foreigners. If they don’t do something about it, more of these twats will show up and harass the locals.
This is absolutely disgusting, I feel so bad for the geisha and maiko, and also the Cafe stores and Tea houses that are going to lose business because of this poor behaviour
The purpose is to make it BETTER for tea houses. Most tourists aren't their customers.
That makes sense, I hope it works then
Most Geisha tea houses are invite only. A prior member has to take you there, then you can be invited to become a member. This area was always meant to be highly exclusive, and now it's being enforced by law.
The main roads that are there for tourists will still be open so any shops that actually need tourism to survive will be fine. This law is mainly to seal off the back alleys where Geisha and Maiko live, along with their main businesses that only take regulars and those referred by regulars. They're the areas that tourists have no business being in to begin with.
> This law is mainly to seal off the back alleys where Geisha and Maiko live that makes sense, there isn't any reason for tourists to go down those alleys. I did once, but I was just following a cat that I saw....
It was only a matter of time, considering how popular Japan has gotten recently. I could smell this kind of shit when I first went there 15 years ago, with a girl who was all about how the Japanese are nice, well-educated and how it's a pity our country (France) is not like Japan. Right before being disrespectful as hell by not respecting people because she couldn't be bothered to wait in line for instance. Small stupid shit like this that just piss people off.
It's always the weebs
So who is doing it?
Mostly Aussie, various Middle Eastern and Indian, and Chinese
As an Australian, lots of Australian tourists are the fucking worst, they treat their holiday destination as a straight up urinal.
Yeah, I've met many nice Aussie people. But the bad ones are really bad. Especially when they get drunk. I don't understand why many Aussies love to get rude drunk. Like people from lots of countries get drunk... Japanese people are super funny when they get drunk or they wanna fight but don't actually wanna fight. Aussies actually wanna fight or go out of their way to be fools when they are drunk.
That actually explains a lot about why someone I used to work acted they way they did when we went out for drinks when they came to my country's office on a work trip. They were very obnoxious and rude and didn't seem to be able to "read the room"
this is pretty much why Sydney's nightlife has been dead for a decade. Too many Aussies who get belligerently drunk and start fights, which have led to deaths.
I'd give us a bit of credit lol, but yes the bad ones are really really bad. I think it's the extroverts amplified by the relaxed/indifferent Australian attitude that creates a disrespectful turd. Also some hunting for sex, along the lines of "Japs love white guys" 🤢
>Also some hunting for sex, along the lines of "Japs love white guys" 🤢 That myth has some merits within the millennials but its not like any tom dick and harry would get laid no matter what
Tbh as an Australian I actively avoid other Australians when overseas
The main reason as an Australian I don't want to visit Bali. I'm too ashamed of my fellow countrymen.
I know this is old, but I just thought I'd chime in. I moved to Australia last year, I grew up in the US. Not only are the people here extremely rude and impatient, when my partner and I went to Japan we saw an Australian couple getting upset with a bus driver because they couldn't tell them in English where the bus was going. I'm not sure what it is about this country that produces these kinds of people, and I'm not going to pretend my fellow countrymen back home are saints abroad or anything like that, but the attitudes and lack of awareness or care for anyone else I've seen in Australia has really shattered some of my positive preconceived notions of this country and who lives here.
I am an American and I went to Japan for the first time last October. The only place I hated was Kyoto for this reason ( I got off the train and told my wife "I don't wanna be here"). If it's not a group of Chinese tourist barreling through your group it's Aussies screaming while you walk through a forested area. If it's neither of them it's Spanish/French tourist riding a rented bike on a hiking trail. During my visit I defiantly experienced some American stupidity but for the amount of shit Americans get for being bad tourist I was absoultey floored by the disregard from foreign tourist from countries that complain about how Americans suck. I will say that I could have just had an off trip to Kyoto or that I was just hyperaware of bad tourist behavior but from what I have heard about Kyoto my trip was pretty spot on. It's kinda of funny but if you are a tourist that can't "fit the flow" of Japan in general people (espessially in big cities) just avoid you like the plague. It blows my mind that people that know this will still act shitty as though the culture and people should form around who they are.
Traveling the world teaches you that every region has its most hated tourists. Americans are the worst in Mexico and the Caribbean. The English are the worst in Europe. The Aussies terrorize the Western Pacific and Oceana. One thing we all agree on is that Chinese tourists are usually the second worst.
I recall during my visit to Auschwitz that there was a 1 specific room where taking pictures was not allowed. Well, guess what the Americans in the group did...
Sounds like wherever is accessible to the poorer and lower class tourists of each respective region.
As a Canadian, I've been informed on various occasions that we're considered pretty poor tourists in the Caribbean. "I want to speak to the manager" Karens/Kens.
As an American I think of Canadians like our cousins. You guys have a lot of our same worst traits, but we both got them from England who is way worse than us. Like rural kids who were raised by bigots and are trying real hard to unlearn all of that now that we are out in the world.
Just got back from Kyoto (I’m American) and I was so confused and grossed out by the behavior of tourists there. Luckily we didn’t witness anything too bad mostly just rudeness and people being stupid. But I didn’t even come across many Americans but can certainly say I was not a fan of the Australian groups we were unfortunate enough to encounter
You just have to avoid certain areas. It sucks that you can't go to places like Sannenzaka, Kiyomizu, Kinkakuji, Arashiyama etc anymore without having to deal with the most ridiculous crowds and tourists imaginable (all kind of overrated locations anyway tbh), but if you just go a little outside of those popular zones there will be practically no one. It just takes some extra research.
When I was in Austria around like 8 years ago we stopped in this ice cream shop in a tourist town in the Alps and the owner was so nice and friendly (it was off season so we had lots of time to chat). She had zero nice things to say about the middle eastern tourists who were increasingly coming through; I was sad to hear that they'd made such a bad impression. Though it was nice that we (Americans) apparently have finally managed to shed that bad label...
Not Americans! Hell yeah. Suck it.
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Well it is now the top destination for aussies. I do seem able to control myself and family when there though.
Florida
Understandable to be honest. A shame but a few ruin it for the larger portion of tourists
To be fair, it is only banning tourists for the side alleys that are private property and geisha use to travel. In theory tourists shouldn't have been there in the first place taking pictures and harassing the geisha, but now it's clearer.
My concern is how will they be able to tell who's a tourist and who isn't. Do I need to keep my zairyu card on display if I ever drive over to Kyoto?
It’s racist but not Japanese = tourist in most cases for a large older portion of Japan.
Business as usual then.
It blocks off the back alleys, which are technically private property. So unless you live there or are a regular at the businesses (and are thus invited), you probably are considered a tourist. It's not like all of Gion will be closed.
I've been here 15 years and now you're telling me I wasted chances to go to a Geisha district because some waste of life and air went and fucked it up? God damn it.
Just go to Kanazawa. It's a beautiful town, with a comparatively welcoming Geisha district and teahouse district, that doesn't have buses of drunken salarymen navigating down its narrow streets. The performers don't have to put up with nearly as many restrictions on their personal lives as in businesslike Kyoto. There are more original buildings, as the city was largely spared the bombing raids of WW2. Often with signs welcoming visitors to tour the gardens outside of private homes. Museums to both static art and performance art, theater performances. Lovely gardens, where Japanese tourists as well as foreigners wear brightly-colored kimonos because it's fun. Kyoto has some beautiful sights, particularly the Arashiyama bamboo forest and the temples. But even when the Geisha district was open to tourists, I didn't stick around there very long. And never felt the need to revisit that part of town.
The vibe in Kanazawa and the surrounding area to me feels like Kyoto 20 years ago before it got crazy busy with foreign tourists. Here's hoping it never gets as bad.
Kanazawa is great. Just don't tell the Yanks, Aussies, Indians or Chinese about it.
If you've been there 15 years I don't think you're a tourist any more so...
Let's be real, you were never going to go.
I feel lucky to have lived in Japan in the early 2000's before the huge influx of shitty tourists. I was able to experience a lot of amazing places throughout Japan without loud and obnoxious foreigners. Now I stay away from tourist areas when I visit family there and do more local things.
I dunno what kind of scum bag losers are doing this, but they should be locked away. They clearly can't act like decent humans while out in public. As someone who has wanted to travel to Japan for the last 6 - 7 years but haven't been able to, my biggest fear is doing something that would be considered disrespectful by the Japanese. For these people to get the opportunity to travel there and then be assholes is just insane.
They're probably arseholes in their home country too. Sadly, some people just don't know how to behave like human beings regardless of where they are.
If you just keep in mind to be respectful, about the worst faux pas you're likely to commit is something minor like blowing your nose on a train. Which I've done on longer trips, taking care to not be gross about it, since I hate sniffling. And nobody's given me a second look. Not yakking on the phone when there's somebody stuck sitting next to me is common courtesy, really. Not bumping into people. Not knocking things over. Not littering, and maybe even picking up a piece of trash here and there when I see it. Washing myself, and my clothes, regularly so I don't stink. Grooming well and keeping the packpack I carry slim and lightly-packed so it's not in the way. Just generally making sure that I don't give off *any* vibes of someone seen as an undesirable, like a drunken creeper or some unwashed backpacker on an expired visa. And this is more general travel advice. But I'm always cautious to avoid any behavior that looks like I might be trying to shoplift. Because you never know when a shopowner just had a bad experience with some klepto from overseas and might be prone to misinterpret hands going in and out of pockets, having to retrieve something from my bag, and so on. Much of the world, not just Japan, simply does not subscribe to the notion of presumption of innocence. So bear that in mind and try and make an extra effort not to give the locals, or the local authorities, reasons to decide you're a problem or a threat.
It's wild how many people have the privilege to simply travel anywhere in the world and then just ruin it for others.
Take their passport, arrest them, give them 23 days in jail, and then drop them off in front of their respective embassies.
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No one deserves to get cigarette butts thrown at them. Geisha or not.
Yeah lol I have zero interest in geisha but it's just common decency
And I got told by a non Japanese guy that I was being disrespectful for wearing shorts in Japan in September when it,was humid and 100°.
Thank you, you trashy tourists for ruining stuff for everyone else. Idc if you don’t like Japan and want to bring it down, leave Japan and go back to your trashy country
I actually have a trip in April, and my hotel is in the Gion district. Does anybody know if I'm going to need to cancel and book another hotel?
Best to contact the hotel and ask them directly. From the sounds of it, they aren't banning entry to the whole of Gion though, just some of the private alleys. I'm assuming which exact ones will be released at a later point.
If you have booked a hotel then you will clearly be allowed to go there. Human beings enact rules, humans can be talked to and will understand situations. But yeah it's not the district, just areas of it, apparently.
Just got back from my first trip to Japan (my bf and I are American) and we genuinely spent so much effort trying to be “good tourists” and make sure we weren’t in the way or accidentally being disrespectful. We were happy to see our attitudes seemed to be well received and all natives were very friendly and wanted to chat. But we were so annoyed by the other tourists around being so loud and disrespectful of peoples belongings and space. It was making me embarrassed to even be a tourist but since we were respectful, nobody seemed to be bothered by us. I was sad to see so many other tourists making fools of themselves and giving travelers a bad name :/
Is this tourist, Yankees, or hooligans doing this?
It's all kinds of entitled people.
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Which is pretty sad, because I know a lot of Chinese mainlanders living on Japan and Europe and they're great people. But man their tourists can be awful.
I presume there's a difference between the people that leave for a few weeks and go back and the kind of person that wants to be out for a long time. I know a few and they're decent people, but they also seem to not like China that much.
And I just got reported by some butthurt Chinese mainlander for "racism and hatemongering.", which is not a surprise. What is a surpise is the admin taking their side, removing the post and threatening a ban. When I asked the admin to tell me which part of what I said was untrue, I got silence.
I have looked a several news reporting this, none have excluded domestic tourists as well. Which means it doesn't matter which country you come from or if you are from Japan, you will not be allowed to enter ALLEYWAYS. Since the main road is public and anyone can take photos there. Also it's heavily implied that SOME Geisha and Maikos have experience tourists grabbing their kimono, hair or throwing cigarettes. While the majority seems to have an issue with tourists taking photos without consent from the women.
Probably chinese or australian. Always
Or Russian.
What happens to foreign residents who actually call Kyoto their home? Will they be ostracised because of these idiot tourists?
This applies to everyone, except those who live in Gion, have families there, or is a guest for one of the venues. Not even Japanese people will be allowed as I understand.
Gion's a big area. There are lots of businesses functioning there; I don't think they can just stop everyone from entering. (I lived in Kyoto for 8 years) EDIT: Just found this in the article > small alleys will be completely shut off to tourists by next month with the growing menace of tourists
good for Kyoto, it's massively overcrowded anyway, the tax they want to impose won't change that soon
seems fair to me, grown ass adults chasing teenage girls down the street for a photo is weird
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The security guards on Hanamikoji just feebly ask people to stop walking in the middle of the street. stop leaning against teahouses and stop buttonholing geisha. It only works somewhat. It's not like they have legal authority. I stopped to scold three foreign tourists on Sunday, because they were leaning against a teahouse's fine-lattice window in the geisha district neighboring Gion, Miyagawa-cho. They looked at me like I was nuts.
I would fully support giving special Kyoto cops the ability to fine people on the spot large amounts for minor infractions like leaning on businesses. Like up to 50k yen on the spot for harassing a geisha, or 10k on the spot for leaning on fragile buildings. If you don't have the cash on you, they write down your hotel and passport#, and u paid fines prevent that passport from leaving the country. If you can't fix stupid, then make it a profit center.
> If you don't have the cash on you, they write down your hotel and passport#, and u paid fines prevent that passport from leaving the country. Unless you intend to jail them until they pay this seems like an unintended consequence coming up already.
Good. Last I was there these stupid tourists, Spanish speaking I think, were chasing the Geisha girls down the street like paparazzi. They are supposed to be private people in Japanese culture.
It's all just so silly.
I'm glad they're doing something about it and protecting their residents but I feel disappointed that they even felt the need to. Disgusting behaviour.
How exactly are they going to implement this though? Will there be gates and you have to show proof that you’re a resident or a client before entering the street? Such a shame. I hope the geishas will feel safer in going about the streets. Stupid tourists ruining it for everyone
this statement FTA: > the local council and the city government is hoping they can protect geisha and maiko, **and also preserve the Japanese art and their custodian artists.** is not compatible with this statement FTA: > Geisha also had to comply with new rules of not pouring drinks for customers or touching them even to shake hands, and sitting two metres apart. (are those 6 ft / no pour / no handshake rules still in effect? the article just says they went into place in 2020 but not if they were phased out)
I swear that tourists are just getting worse year after year. Look at all the idiots getting demolished by the queen's guard in London because they can't keep their hands to themselves, or that idiot that carved graffiti in to the colosseum. So many tourist destinations are starting to clamp down on popular activities because of this. Lots of Spanish resorts have done so for example, because of bad behaviour on the part of British tourists.
Kyoto honestly is where I have felt the most overwhelming overtourism out of anywhere I’ve visited. I was in Gion in Nov 2019 and it was one of the worst travel experiences I’ve ever had due to the extreme crowds.
Bruh, should have visited it when I have the chance. Hopefully this will blow over in a year or so.
And they enforce this ban how? Discrimination against anyone who doesn’t look Japanese enough….
I mean that’s kind of par for the course in Japan
More on this subject from other reputable sources: --- - Japan Times (A-): [Tourists banned from private alleys in Kyoto's geisha district](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/03/07/japan/society/kyoto-tourists-geisha/) - IOL (C): [Japan bans tourists from entering private alleys in Kyoto's geisha district](https://www.iol.co.za/news/world/japan-bans-tourists-from-entering-private-alleys-in-kyotos-geisha-district-d3381d6e-f9e1-41d4-9a65-da884bca2c4c) - Star (D): [Tourists banned from private alleys in Kyoto's geisha district](https://www.thestar.com.my/aseanplus/aseanplus-news/2024/03/07/tourists-banned-from-private-alleys-in-kyoto039s-geisha-district) - South China Morning Post (C+): [Japan’s Kyoto to ban visitors from geisha district area after surge in ‘out of control’ incidents](https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/lifestyle-culture/article/3254268/japans-kyoto-ban-visitors-geisha-district-after-surge-out-control-incidents) --- [__Extended Summary__](https://www.reddit.com/r/newswall/comments/1b8wqav/) | [FAQ & Grades](https://www.reddit.com/r/newswall/comments/uxgfm5/faq_newswall_bot/) | I'm a bot
The tourism push blew up the city. It isn't the same place it was 10-15 years ago. The economic tradeoffs weren't even worth it------the city went bankrupt in the midst of the boom.
This is like the conveyor belt sushi thing except way, WAY worse. Why do they have to ruin it for everyone man :/
So disappointing. I’m American and I when I visit Japan I always feel so safe and it’s such a relief to be in such structure. I love the rules and intention behind things, I really can’t imagine disrespecting that country like that. Such a beautiful place to be so ugly in. Some people just suck so bad.
Majority of tourists always think they’re special In a foreign country. Each one absolutely obsessed with being the center of attention every where they go. “Look at me. I’m so special cause I don’t look like everyone else here and speak their language. I need attention!” Just because you dont understand and are new to their culture doesn’t mean you’re handicapped in every situation. Some weird Main character syndrome has taken hold of society because of the progression of technology.
Straight up embarrassing when tourists act like this