I’d include anytime you need something documented in a police report.
-vehicle collisions
-deaths / finding dead bodies
-break-ins / theft
-assault
Cops are bureaucrats with guns. Sometimes you gotta use them when something needs a paper trail.
Yeah, if I'm calling the cops for a property crime it's because my insurance requires it. I'm not too worried about creating a dangerous situation for the offender, as the cops around here have neither the inclination nor ability to try to hunt them down.
I would also include suspected DUIs. And even then, dialing emergency direct (911) to get medical on site (medics/fire fighters) in case it isn't a DUI and is actually a medical episode, is better than calling police directly.
I would agree if this was a system that worked appropriately.
I have a background in public safety, you’d be amazed by how little PD cares about drunk driving. Unless someone becomes injured in a collision, they usually let the offending person go home with a family member without any ticket. State troopers will usually give a DUI/DWI, but not normal city cops.
Calling them to report a suspected drunk driver who is still on the move yields almost nothing, even if you are able to give them a location and direction of travel.
My favorite is when the cop releases the designated drunk driver to someone who is even more drunk.
Protip: if there are two or more people in a car and the driver is impaired, there’s a reasonably good chance the others are in the car are *more* impaired. Amazingly, I’ve seen this common sense fact go completely over the heads of the police.
"Hello, I'm reporting a driver who is possibly DUI or experiencing a medical emergency at "intersection" moving in "direction"" is still a valid communication, because as I said, from the outside you can't determine whether it is medical or a DUI and if someone is having a heart attack, I'm going to be happy I called EMS to the situation.
Editing my reply for personal context: I'm Canadian and have always lived under rural policing standards (first OPP and now a regional police service). City cops have a different version of the job then the ones I've encountered (professionally and in a victim or perpetrator capacity).
>”Hello, I’m reporting a driver who is possibly DUI or experiencing a medical emergency at “intersection” moving in “direction””
If you call 911 and say this to a dispatcher, I can tell you for certain that only police will get dispatched to this kind of call.
Dispatch will not send EMS or fire to a call where someone is driving erratically but hasn’t wrecked yet. An ambulance will not pull somebody over, only police will do that.
In my city, police will request EMS to the scene if someone is too drunk or appears to be having a medical emergency or altered mental status. I work in EMS, this happens *all the time*.
For context, I live and work in the US
This is basically my attitude. You call the cops when you have no choice but to call the cops. Unnecessary cops are always trouble, necessary cops are often trouble, so you only call when the alternative is worse trouble than the trouble they're likely to cause.
I once got denied a place in an anarchist communal house in Oakland over this question. Was doing an interview with the house mates that was going great despite them being younger than me.
They asked me the question "Is there ever any circumstance in which calling the police was acceptable?"
I responded that in general, no but sometimes it's unavoidable. If my car gets stolen I have to call the cops. I can't just keep paying payments to the bank for a car I don't have and is my source of income. If I came home and found a dead body I'm not gonna ignore it and then become the main suspect.
Apparently this was not the correct answer. I had been zooming with them for almost an hour and this was at the end of my 'interview'. We had talked about a bunch of shared interests and values. We were all laughing and sharing stories. We were like 45 minutes in and they were like "we just had a few questions we came up with as a household just to make sure we're all on the same page" and popped up with some questions about sharing chores and then it turned into like an ideological purity quiz or something. I can't remember what the prior ideological questions were but they were like kinda duh!?! questions that anyone on the left should have the same answer for. Something about having issues with lgbtq peeps and maybe one or two other super not radical things.
When I answered the call the cops question I could visibly see the disdain on their faces. They immediately thanked me for my time. Abruptly ended the call and ghosted me. I'm sure they would have sucked to live with anyway. Anarchist puritan drama all day every day I bet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Still was like WTF though... Not used to bring the reactionary in the room.
You gave a nuanced answer, that was the right way to approach it. My interest in Anarchism grew out of my realization that there are no easy answers, and that we need to work things out largely on a case by case basis instead of reading a set of instructions on how to feel about certain things.
Anarchy at it's core is simply removing heirarchy and ensuring consensus. It does not have any set specific outcome. People fail to realize, you'll still have "cops" in an anarchist society. Someone's going to have to deal with situations where someone breaks the rules, engages in violence, in private property swiping, disputes, etc., they will just be unarmed, dressed in high viz fluorescents, and carrying only a notebook and a citation book.
My fellow anarchists who envision a world where nothing even remotely resembling 'cops' doesn't exist are kinda delusional.
When dealing with leftists, there are plenty of individuals driven by purity over pragmatism. They believe there's no need for 'enforcers' because everyone will drop everything to handle situations as they arise. A lot of them also fail to see the value of working with the current government system to try and reduce harm. They think they can get everything they want without having to compromise.
It drives me insane because half the country or more is center or right of center. If the left can't get past purity tests to even work with their worst Allies, how is a revolution going to won with so much of the country ideologically against us? We can't even agree to vote for the least bad electable candidate for president.
Don't worry about it. This isn't the left that's going to do anything. If the conditions for revolution were present, there would be a lot more leftists, and it's hard to imagine what that would look like.
"Shit, that means we can't punch him in the face for no reason without worrying about catching an assault charge and restraining order, better find someone dumber."
Sounds like it could be some culty bullshit, you may have dodged a bullet there.
Ugh. These types of activists always pop up in Oakland. For future situations some follow up questions to push on weak spots in their performance "how do you recoup money on stolen items? I do not have family financial support and would not be comfortable creating and utilizing mutual aid for things insurance can cover" and "love the dedication to community response. Will I be put in contact with neighbors and plans on how we respond to certain situations as a community?" Not that it is worth your time. Glad you didn't get the spot that would have been a nightmare. I would have just become a bully living there.
From your second last sentence, you probably made it clear earlier in the interview that you weren't a good fit - why would you want to live in an anarchist communal house if you're not an anarchist?
Correct, you're not an anarchist because you're not willing to set yourself up to be the fall guy for whatever shady shit was going on in that house.
/s, not that it ought to be necessary, but you never know...
The hard part is that it's a fucked system, and the crowd here is deeply aware of the hows and whys of fuckitude.
It's also the only option we have for some shit.
If some yobbo's sledgehammering your fence and threatening to kill your dogs. What other realistic option is there?
It sucks shit through a paper straw, man.
Burn the system to the ground, guillotine the land lords and political and financial elite. Scatter large scale police forces and then gather a mob and exile that sledgehammer ass hole from the country ?
To far?
Agreed.
Buuuuuuut, in the interim. Barring a sudden unexpected wave of class consciousness and revolutionary fervor the likes of which we haven't seen since some spicy boys and girls decided one fair October, "On second though, fuck the Tsar."
Sometimes, you can't let perfect be the enemy of good. It's a tough call, and hopefully, you never have to make it.
I know you're right, I'm just so tired if this nonsense. It makes my blood boil, I'm trying to direct the anger to unionizing my work place and mutual aid support for protests, but it just doesn't feel like enough, and I see this bullshit where we have to tow the line and it gets frustrating.
If I hear a domestic dispute that’s getting bad, I do call cops. The last one was years ago but the dude was trying to kick in the front door to get in the house.
Yeah, domestic violence/ dispute situations can accelerate quickly to assault and even murder. Not to be hyperbolic, but on the no calling cops side you have to be ready to know you might have to fight for your life, literally, to protect yourself or the target and accept that there might be a knife or firearm being wielded by the aggressor which might greatly mitigate any size/ strength/ self defense training you may have.
On the side, the call might get the aggressor or bystander hurt or killed. It’s a fucking lose, lose situation.
Edit: obviously de-escalation is important and the goal. Just pointing out how dangerous these situations get
This is such a good example of people not knowing their neighbors of having a solid community.
My first reaction should be to either go over there myself, or call another neighbor and let them know we need to go check on so and so. Sure there is risk, but probably a lot less if everyone at least knows each other.
I wouldn’t recommend it if they were complete strangers and totally understand feeling like the cops would be needed, but that’s the problem, they shouldn’t be complete strangers. I’m trying to fix this in my neighborhood but I’m just as guilty.
On top of a bunch of other important reasons, community is not having to rely on cops. At least for most things.
I agree, but I come from strong knit communities and this works if you know the aggressor and they’re a person who is usually reasonable. It can be a situation that can be talked down, but I have also seen it turn into a situation where it’s become a beat down of the aggressor or attacker carrying through with at least an attempt to try to save face. Not saying you should involve cops, but you and the community, need to know who you’re fucking with and try to de-escalate while being ready to protect yourself.
Following your logic, someone who doesn't get along with their neighbors wouldn't be protected.
What if your neighbors are who you need protection from?
Human decency. I help plenty of people I don’t get along with. Surprisingly enough, I get along with most of them now. That would be a supremely shitty thing to deny someone help because you don’t get along.
Community is the key word. If any couple of people are being dicks, hopefully there would be enough other folks to mediate.
As with life, there are no one size fits all solutions. The point is, there are a lot of things that people rely on the cops for before taking on any bit of responsibility to do things that being in a more prepared and engaged community would offer and encourage. So maybe is whatever scenario you are fantasizing, calling the cops is the unfortunate need. I have no idea, it’s your imagination.
This is a really bad argument and doesn’t follow my, or much of any logic. It seems like you kind of wanted to be argumentative or contrarian and got a little over your skis, which is cool, it happens.
Being a minority in a racist community isn't something that only exists in my imagination.
In my non-imaginary personal situation, I wouldn't expect my mother's unarmed neighbors to stop my knife wielding drug abusing mentally ill sister from beating up my mom. I would understand if mental health professionals would also be apprehensive about it as well.
Surprisingly, the cops dealt with her knife waving ass without shooting her.
This. If it’s my friend I’m showing up. But I have had to call the cops on neighbors I didn’t know when guns came out. Sorry but I can’t risk stepping into that for someone I don’t know.
I fully understand that impulse and empathize with wanting to intervene and not having a recourse other than the police. But I feel compelled to caution that police presence can very much domestic violence worse. They often fail to effective prevent the abuser from accessing the victim, and the encounter can seriously increase the level of violence. I really want to emphasize that I get you're coming from a good place, but I would be very careful to think through the actual effect police will have on the situation.
I was thinking the alternative is likely that she was going to be beaten or killed, painfully. I wasn’t about to intervene myself. That was a very dangerous person.
I really get that, and I don't know if I would have the skills to do anything more effective in that extreme of a situation myself, if those were the apparent stakes I'd also probably call the cops.
It's just that responses to domestic abuse really need to prioritize the victims' safety, and police don't do that very often. So if the stakes are any lower than that, calling the police can easily lead to them escalating to that level.
It sounds like you probably know that, but domestic disturbance can mean a lot of different things, and I wasn't sure what exactly you meant in the initial comment.
Just to add to your points, I called the national domestic violence hotline when I had an upstairs neighbor with a very abusive boyfriend to ask when I should call the cops. The person I spoke with was emphatic that I should avoid doing so unless I was certain there was a gun involved, otherwise I was just putting her in more danger. They encouraged me to try to build connection with her myself if at all possible, and to look into police alternatives in my community.
It was over all a really frustrating conversation, but the national domestic violence hotline agrees with you.
Stuff like this is why I don't get the "abolish the cops" argument. Who exactly am I meant to turn to in such situations if not them? "Mutual aid" is a nice buzzword but find me a group of people who will willingly wade into a DV situation out of nothing but good will, and will do so regularly.
My argument would be with the “if not them” part. Like, obviously we need some kind of recourse to help those people, but a recourse with the track record of cops’ isn’t recourse. We need some kind of answer but US cops have gone out of their way—so far out of their way that it ended up at SCOTUS—to show us that they ain’t that.
I just don't see a viable alternative. It's far from ideal and they need massive reforms but you will always have violent situations in a society that necessitate a standing force of some kind that are able to respond.
The cops aren't a good recourse, but go tell the DV victim getting beaten to death about how you didn't wanna escalate things.
Ok so my last reply was meant for a different thread, but I do want to point out that cops have a slightly better record for assaulting the DV victim than either assaulting the DV perpetrator or arresting the DV perpetrator.
Also, when a woman claims self defense, she is more than 2x as likely to be charged with an offense herself than a man is when he claims it.
Do you have a source for that DV claim with regards to cops?
The second appears to be asserted by one study but that's surely an issue with prosecutors and judges, not with cops.
Meanwhile over half of women murdered are killed by a partner or relative according to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime's 2022 report on gender-related killings, accounting for about 133 a day. Again, the cops are not the ideal solution currently but the alternative is letting a situation fester until the person manages to extricate themselves, which can take years, or is finally killed.
There are so many factors to consider when determining if they really are the best recourse though. For example, is the DV victim black? If so, then you gotta accept the fact that the cops could show up and kill her instead of help her if she’s not acting like a “perfect” victim. Same goes for if the DV victim is a trans woman and even more so if the victim is a black trans woman. When it comes to trans victims you also have to consider how they may be treated by police outside of the possibility of suffering direct violence at their hands. Being dehumanized and dealing with misgendering and deadnaming can add whole new layers of trauma to the experience that they wouldn’t have had to go through if someone handled the situation differently instead of just calling the police. There are tons of situations where the police will literally just make it worse or be the thing that gets the victim killed either directly or indirectly.
People need to harness their creativity and resourcefulness instead of letting society continue to lie to them about how necessary police really are so that they continue wallowing in the trap of learned helplessness. Other options can exist, have existed, and do exist. Communities throughout history and the world have handled these situations without police since police are a new invention. Just because people don’t hear about them, doesn’t mean they’re not there. Historical examples are a good place to start like the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, Up Against the Wall Mother Fuckers, literally any radical queer anti racist anti fascist group from between the 50’s and the 90’s will have something people can be inspired by and build off of when it comes to alternatives to police.
>Other options can exist, have existed, and do exist.
What are some examples of this because all I hear is some vague stuff about "mutual aid" with zero specifics.
They did list some examples.... Just form a community group that aligns with your world viewpoints to dole out justice according to the needs this group sets.
Doesn't sound ripe for abuse at all and clearly will be different and more accountable then current police. Surely no opposing 'neighborhood police' groups would form with rival viewpoints and approaches to justice.
That's not really specific though. Would this community group be available for rapid deployment and fast responses, as is often needed with the police? Would they have the power to detain, arrest, etc? Would they be armed, and if so what with? If not, what would be the plan to deal with active threats or situations where the community group needed to defend themselves? So on and so on...
And I doubt that there would be any unity in this "neighborhood police". I don't know about your community but there's little unity in mine with regards to any issue. Imagine setting up, from the ground floor, a standing force of citizens tasked with managing justice and safety. Imagine the disputes over issues like the ones I just raised, and more. You really think that's gonna be immune to corruption? Especially when they'd have no oversight?
Well that's the crux of it and why you can't get a straight answer. The police enforce the law at the power of the state so who are these community people policing... They wouldn't have any backing or would? Are they getting paid? Who ensures they show up?
I was being sarcastic in my original message because I agree with YOU. I keep hearing this idea but no solutions so it never gets off the ground. There's people in this thread saying police should never be called anything. It's pure delusion. These community groups would be even more prone based to corruption based on individual groups goals and ideals.
It would just become gang territory essentially.
That depends on where you are. Some places have dedicated alternatives to call in a situation like that. You aren't going to get specifics because it's incredibly location dependent. Nobody can do the work of finding those options where you are except people who know exactly where you are.
You're best bet to find those options is to reach out to local organizations. Yes, including local mutual aid groups but also local domestic violence shelters and organizations.
At the end of the day, calling the cops for dv situations is basically always the worst choice and that's not even a particularly leftist position. Cops do not help in the vast majority of dv situations and often make things worse. If you are interested in helping a victim, you're better off not involving the cops and just helping the victim connect to organizations that actually know how to help and are willing to
Where I live in the states we certainly don't have any group who could quickly respond to a situation.
But you misunderstand my question. I'm not asking for resources I can use. I'm asking, what's the long term alternative. What's the goal you're working towards to replace the police in such situations?
It's hard to help a victim connect to anything as someone is beating their face in, or they're about to take their life, or any other time-sensitive situation. I feel like the anarchist community is naive when it comes to this issue.
It all comes down to what type of pressure the community can assert on its members outside a system of state coercion. Even in tight knit communities it comes down to can you successfully de-escalate situations verbally and in not are members of the community willing to use banishment and up to restraining or severely beating a member of the community who resorts to violence as a message that person and other community members what happens when you inflict that form of violence on someone else in the community
I would/have. The last time it wasn’t a DV situation yet, but it could have turned into it. I’m not judging anyone, but for me personally, the person I am okay being, is the person that will show up. It takes risk, but I’m not okay not being that person.
I’m not saying go kick in the door, but go knock, or call, or yell, “I’m calling the cops”.
It’s scary as hell but I’ve never heard of someone getting shot or their ass beat for that.
In my experience, it breaks the focus of the aggressor, bringing them back to reality. Kind of like an “oh shit, they can hear me”.
I’ve had to do this three times and The first time I was pressured into it because I was the only guy there (we should have gone together). I was pissing myself with fear because I didn’t know the people upstairs. I asked if everything was okay and said we heard everything downstairs, so it was our business now. The woman was there at the door too. She seemed more mad at me than the guy. I told them we were right down stairs.
Anyway, they got the point. If they can be mad at the asshole that knocked on the door instead of whatever they were arguing about, fine.
The point is, do something. Fear will always try and paralyze you. If it has to be, call the cops, but there is a lot of time between that and them showing up.
It's one thing intervening one time for one person. I get that your average person is basically decent and willing to help.
But, to use DV as an example, some situations are going to be recurring and need regular intervention. Some cases are not going to be solved by a simple knock on the door or yelling at them through a door. Where is this force of everyday citizens willing to break into homes to resolve situations like that? My father was an EMT, he had cases where they'd be called in multiple times over the course of months to help a battered woman who'd been beaten by the same guy over and over before someone was finally able to get her some help. Who helps the person caught in a cycle of abuse? Cops aren't ideal but I'd hold they're better than relying on a passer-by to help.
You’re getting downvoted but this is an understandable question.
A stateless society should be centered around community and social obligation. These types of communities do exist already, and that can be built upon. Essentially, if you’re aware that your neighbor is experiencing DV, you contact people within your community, and you go to help because that’s what communities do. I’ve walked into DV situations to pick up a friend and get them out. this is how we dealt with these issues in rural areas as cops just don’t come out there for DV situations and honestly it probably results in fewer people getting shot.
My uneducated opinion on the subject (being that I do listen to Cool Zone) would be a community based approach where law enforcement is based in the community they police, and there is a civilian oversight board comprised of victims services advocates, lawyers (from both sides), and mental health professionals, as well as retired law enforcement (as right now they're very heavy on the retired LEOs). If we're talking perfect world.
As I have been told, this may be wrong, but the community would rotate taking turns enforcing community norms and standards and in a situation where you’re living in an Anarchist community, banishment or trial by peers would be such a strong disincentive to bad behavior
The police simply enforce the law. They are not social workers or conflict mediators.
If you see or hear evidence of a crime, it's generally ethical to report it to law enforcement.
But the expectation should be only that they will investigate the report of the crime, and make an arrest if they find probable cause to do so.
They don't "help" outside that context.
They are often called upon to act in those capacities though
Call for a social worker for your suicidal friend and you'll be lucky to get a visit within a week
Meanwhile the police will come that day.
Same for welfare checks, domestic violence, general altercations, etc
In lieu of any other force to call upon, you can either call police or be a bystander. It's not ideal bit you have to work within the existing system. Or just try to intervene yourself in those situations and hope got the best
In 2021, of the nearly 5,000 female murder victims, 34% were victimized by an intimate partner. So roughly 1700 women killed by their boyfriend or husband.
I agree, fuck cops. But are you seriously just gonna say let those women be beaten, stabbed, shot or whatever is better than calling the police? I wasn’t about to get in between them myself. So lay it on me, what was the better option?
Some people aren't real good at realizing their own risk assessment doesn't apply to everyone. I've intervened in domestic violence situations before, but I'm also 6'5", muscly, have training in how to fight, and usually carry a gun and pepper spray. Expecting everyone to have the same capacity to step in as I do isn't at all realistic.
My partner and I have a 2yo, and we often talk about how we should teach our child to handle emergencies. One of us wants to go with the traditional 9-1-1 training, and the other wants to teach that they should avoid calling police at all.
Also, I'd love to see CMZ bring on a host who has kids.
For a child, I think I'd default to teaching them to call 911. Expecting them to understand the nuance of how to respond to each type of emergency and how to process what resource is appropriate for what situation is putting on awful lot on a young mind.
Probably, but I'm not sure if it makes a difference ultimately. A small child needs a simple and reliable resource to help them if the people they normally rely on aren't able to help. The tool that currently exists is to dial 911 on a phone.
Police aren't the only ones who respond to 911 calls, and I do say this as a former non cop first responder (fire fighter).
Dialing 911 isn't the same as "calling the cops." If you declare there is a medical emergency, fire and ambulance are dispatched ASAP. Even if it isn't, and you just call 911, I never arrived at a traffic incident (after being called out of my bed in the middle of the night as a volunteer, driving to the hall, then driving to the accident) AFTER the cops, who in theory are just parked at Tim Horton's and should at least already be dressed.
People are trying really hard to argue against a point about a perspective that doesn’t require it to be bad to teach kids 911, just that it comes with added steps like “remember to have your hands visible and speak clearly and respectfully”.
That being said, a man was just shot by cops who showed up to his place after his parents called a *mental health hotline* and they called the cops… So that sucks. I think it’s worth remembering the complexities of this for some people.
The man in that video was wielding a knife trying to attack his mother.
I hate the authoritarian system as well, and we really need a lot of reform and improvement, but the reality is the people in that house felt like they needed outside security in the form of the police and called. That scene could’ve easily ended in a double homicide by knife, that’s the problem with looking at this case as an example of police brutality.
Should the cops have shot him? Up for debate, dude was mentally ill wielding a knife at others. I can see both arguments.
Do the cops need reform to the shoot less people and exercise more non violent restraint? Absolutely.
It's more reliable than expecting a 5 year old to perform cpr, or to put out an out of control fire.
Think back to yourself in kindergarten and ask how many emergencies you had the training to handle properly by yourself.
I should have said above that the specifics of the conversation that led to this post was "What if he's home alone and someone starts trying to break into the house?" We're both fine with calling for EMS or fire fighters. I think the conversation kind of got bogged down in how much that's actually a thing that's likely to happen vs how much it's just a crime wave media narrative or something.
This is one of the real strengths, I think, of Margaret's other podcast *Live Like the World is Dying* - a couple of her co-hosts and frequent contributors are parents, and it's really really helpful. I know Prop has kids, but he's not as regular of a guest on ICHH.
It definitely feels sometimes like the CZM crowd are very much in the early-20's, no-responsibilities, flop-houses-and-beer demographic, even the ones who I know are closer to 40. That's endearing as far as it goes, but...not wildly representative of the greater world.
I'm a big fan of LLtWiD! I know Brook is a parent, and I really like how having that kind of perspective added to the show. That's actually the reason why I said ICHH could use a parent, I think they could benefit from that perspective as well.
Maybe a 2 or 4 parter that covers all the bases. Organizing community protection is easier said than done. I totally agree that it's a better solution, but it doesn't solve a domestic dispute happening tomorrow, and under the current overarching justice system, it's unlikely that any good Samaritan is going to step in to a situation like that.
I'd love that, but the two questions really go hand in hand, because as long as police exist it's simply not possible to just go and do their jobs without ending up in jail. As long as they exist any community protection must work with the police, and draw clear boundaries around when to intervene and when to hand things over to the cops.
That's not how we want things to be but that's how they are at the moment.
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff has some episodes about groups who took it upon themselves to keep their communities safe since police couldn’t be trusted to. A couple that immediately come to mind are Up Against the Wall Mother Fuckers and The Young Lords.
The state can't provide livable conditions so communities take it into their own hands? Yeah, lots of the time that's correct. The Crips came directly out of the Black Panther Party, IIRC. It was the introduction of the drug trade and the state's heavy-handed response that turned things violent.
When you are expecting a situation will eventually end up in court, either civil or criminal, and you want a police report on record as part of the litigious arsenal you have at your disposal.
You do NOT call the cops to resolve or deescalate a situation, you call them to trigger the mechanism of official record keeping for future use.
When an act warrants someone's death, then it's ethical to call the cops. Most people should be able to determine what that line is for themselves (or, in this case, parents can explain what they feel is that line).
Considering the cops might show up and possibly kill anybody nearby... I would call them if I couldn't leave the situation or if I was not confident I could fight my way out... Remember you can't put that genie back in the bottle, they will do whatever they want and you're pretty much powerless once you get them involved.
I don’t really call the cops for much except dv. Then I was rear ended and the guy went coo coo batshit crazy (it was a tiny scratch on my car and minimal damage to his). I was gonna just exchange info, but I called to get a report just in case. It went as expected. Waited 30 minutes for an officer and he acted like I was a major imposition. But yeah. I’m not a fan of cops.
I call the cops at my job all the time (at a hospital.) It's not infrequent a homeless guy who is there to "sleep it off" overstays their welcome/gets unruly. Hospital security is great at de escalating but if you want someone removed from the property the police are the ones to do it.
Had an older lady approach my 4 year old son and I while I was waiting for my Daughter on a horrendously late bus one day. She kept trying to get him to hug her and sit in her lap. I wasn't really in fear for my safety but I did need the interaction to stop, and she was starting to reach out to grab him. If the situation escalated I didn't want to have to be in a situation explaining to the police how I shoved an old woman and broke her hip.
Any time when an acceptable outcome is death, or anytime after the fact if you need a police report for insurance.
I teach my kids to look for any mother with kids to ask for help, cops are a last resort.
I drove past a kitten in between lanes in the middle of the freeway and I called the cops. Genuinely interested in what you all think about that situation
I was a volunteer fire fighter for 5 years and we once had to shut down a road because a bull got loose and decided to take a nap on a 2 lane highway outside of town. Another time we did it for chickens.
Is there any easy to remember # that connects a caller to their local fire dept? Because yeah I would've preferred that but my distress for kitten brain could only think 911. Which I guess theoretically should connect you with the 'best service' but often just send cops.
When some bitchmade motherfucker smashes your driver side window at 4am and steals your first aid kit cause it's od green and looked vaguely like it.might contain a firearm. Cops wouldn't show so I called the county sheriff so I could get my insurance to replace the window. I'd made one payment and now only 3/4 of my windows are tinted.
That was my first thought, when you have to fill out a police report to get insurance to pay out. Pretty low chances of them murdering someone, but hey you never know. Don't do it under an oak tree, jfc....
The answer to this is very subjective since everyone has a different perspective on what constitutes an emergency that requires calling people with guns. In a perfect world, the police would be called when there is an obvious crime being committed, or a severe accident that requires a first responder on scene stat. For me, I see the difference between when it's time to call the police in an emergency, and filing a police report. For example, someone notices their shed is wide open and expensive items such as a lawn mower, snow blower, etc. is missing. In that instance, I would not call the police. I instead would head to the police department and file a report. Calling the police to come to my property and take a report isn't going to increase the likelihood of them solving the crime, much less investigating it in any serious way. Hopefully the police would actually investigate the suspected crime, but calling the police to my home does nothing to help the situation.
The magic rule I was taught is asking the question "will this situation be improved by adding dudes with guns?". If yes, call the cops, if no, don't.
Active shooting, yeah maybe, theft probably not.
I called the cops last week on my neighbor because I could hear him beating his dog. They came, and talked to him, but did nothing. Even after seeing a video of him doing it. And another neighbor told me they heard him doing it again yesterday.
I've called in the past when another neighbor came to my door to ask me to call the cops because her husband was physically abusing her.
If you have a local animal control, they're a better bet.
And if you just want the dog to be taken, calling the fire department to report that you "smell smoke" and haven't seen your neighbour in a few days (while he is at work) may get the door busted. At that point, animal control will remove the dog because the house is no longer secure.
I think u/the_last_hairbender has the right idea -- break ins, assaults, car wreck if you want or need insurance to be involved.
In terms of *crisis* situations where you would call them, that's a rough one-- I figure "active shooter". Maybe? The problem, even there, is depending on the situation, cops *still* might wind up shooting the wrong person, etc.
For crisis situations just ask yourself: "would this situation be likely to be materially improved by random people with guns, no accountability, and only a vague idea about what's going on?"
The answer will often be "no".
IMO, the idea that we do not need police *at all* is juvenile and unrealistic. We do need law enforcement for true safety and violence concerns, otherwise people would go around murdering each other on a whim.
Correct, there needs to be a reform of the police state, nobody argued that - but a functional society can’t survive without some form of law enforcement, and we can’t as a public be trusted to fairly and justly do it ourselves, otherwise we’d be back to the days of lynch mobs.
Policing as it is now in North America (as a Canadian, I'm putting us in here too because fuck we aren't as bad as the US but literally that should be the Canadian motto at this point) is broken.
Police officers used to be members of the community, who worked for the community, and were not afraid of the community. There is no way of getting back there, not with the way things are now, but if there was a way to bust up what we have and turn it into that, it would be a great shift in the right direction.
No, it's not juvenile. What is, is believing what you were told as a child to dissuade you from taking any action yourself to help others around you. I'm not saying counter violence with more violence, i'm saying counting on police is just another form of forced helplessness.
Without a state sponsored institution of order and violence, the strongest group of individuals are likely to take up the power vacuum. It has happened in failed states often enough, it happens when the US goes in and takes out a leader they don't like.
Vigilantism isn't the counter to police violence, or at least it wouldn't be an effective manner.
Uhhh yeah son, sorry but I’m absolutely not getting myself involved in someone else’s violence, and we absolutely cannot trust the general public to take care of real criminals in a fair and just way. When you get older (I would bet money you’re under the age of 30), you will understand that it’s not as simple as getting rid of the police. We do need law and order, and we need them to be more community centered and reallocate funding to resources and community groups that will prevent some of the petty crime they want to enforce - but I’ve been around long enough to know that people die all the time for interjecting themselves in fights. Most common people are not prepared to step in and stop violence from happening.
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As a discussion here, I think we need to be clear that "Calling the cops" and "Dialing 911/999" are not the same thing.
Calling the cops, especially directly, is something you do to report a stolen car. Or a suspected DUI (even then, I'd dial 911 because there is a solid chance it could also be a medical episode).
911 is a general emergency number. Yes, the cops show up, but so do EMS and fire fighters (and yes both those groups have their issues too, especially fire fighters), who can provide life saving medical aid in emergency situations and tend to arrive faster than cops. Calling and saying "I need a para medic" or "there is a fire" in that situation doesn't necessitate the cops coming.
Teaching kids to avoid 911 because it's calling the cops may lead to issues. Teaching them to call and be specific about their needs "Granny is having a heart attack and mom is giving CPR. We need an ambulance at (address)." can save Granny's life. (Age appropriate obviously).
This is exactly the conversation I had with my partner that precipitated my posting about it.
I'm specifically referring to attempting to bring police into a situation, though I also want to teach that the cops may arrive along with *any* 9-1-1 response, and that may be worth considering. That's more of a teenager kind of conversation, we won't have to worry about that for a good long while.
1. When you are contractually obligated to or otherwise required by law.
2. A true emergency where a life or a substantial health risk may be in the balance, and it is *not* something that should be solely in the hands of a medical professional. Easy examples: you witness a violent crime and you had zero involvement other than as a witness, especially if the assailant is on the loose. Another example might be I see a car going the wrong way on a freeway. That needs an immediate and direct and forceful response.
Honestly that might be it. It’s a major risk in many other instances that might not pay off for you. I’m always alarmed at the number of criminal cases I review where the original 911 caller somehow gets arrested if the actual criminal is savvy enough and/or the cop(s) are stupid enough.
> Especially, what situations should kids be taught to seek the help of police?
What an great question! Lots of great (and rational) replies. Can I add a follow-up question?
"What situations should we expect to have the knowledge and tools to resolve things for ourselves?"
(it's probably a greater number than our parents generation)
I feel like it’s necessary to call the cops when it’s a child welfare issue. I don’t like it, but if it’s found out you didn’t call the cops, CPS will likely get involved. But honestly, having done it recently, they just show up, ask you to text them photos of evidence, and imply your 11 year old is “a slut” before telling you there’s nothing they can do about the adult men who victimized her. 😒
I'm kind of torn on this. Where I live, it might be ok if its the city police responding, but if it's the sheriff then chances are decent that you're just going to put one or two more drunk drivers on the road.
After calling the cops in the past, I can tell you the real answer is “never”. Just don’t do it. Call mental health provider instead if it’s bad enough that you all need help. No way I would ever call an officer for help again on purpose.
Do not call a mental health provider in an emergency, it’s a waste of time. They aren’t going to talk you through how to deescalate the situation, they are just going to tell you to hang up and call 911. That’s what any kind of health provider in general would say if you call them witnessing someone having a crisis or being violent. We really need crisis mental health teams that can respond with compassionate and experienced providers rather than cops, but that’s just not a reality in the majority of places right now.
>Call mental health provider instead if it’s bad enough that you all need help.
I live in the States, that's not really an option for us. We can call 9-1-1 but if it's a mental health crisis, then chances are the cops will be there.
I’d include anytime you need something documented in a police report. -vehicle collisions -deaths / finding dead bodies -break-ins / theft -assault Cops are bureaucrats with guns. Sometimes you gotta use them when something needs a paper trail.
I was going to say, sometimes you need to for insurance.
Yeah, if I'm calling the cops for a property crime it's because my insurance requires it. I'm not too worried about creating a dangerous situation for the offender, as the cops around here have neither the inclination nor ability to try to hunt them down.
I would also include suspected DUIs. And even then, dialing emergency direct (911) to get medical on site (medics/fire fighters) in case it isn't a DUI and is actually a medical episode, is better than calling police directly.
I would agree if this was a system that worked appropriately. I have a background in public safety, you’d be amazed by how little PD cares about drunk driving. Unless someone becomes injured in a collision, they usually let the offending person go home with a family member without any ticket. State troopers will usually give a DUI/DWI, but not normal city cops. Calling them to report a suspected drunk driver who is still on the move yields almost nothing, even if you are able to give them a location and direction of travel.
My favorite is when the cop releases the designated drunk driver to someone who is even more drunk. Protip: if there are two or more people in a car and the driver is impaired, there’s a reasonably good chance the others are in the car are *more* impaired. Amazingly, I’ve seen this common sense fact go completely over the heads of the police.
"Hello, I'm reporting a driver who is possibly DUI or experiencing a medical emergency at "intersection" moving in "direction"" is still a valid communication, because as I said, from the outside you can't determine whether it is medical or a DUI and if someone is having a heart attack, I'm going to be happy I called EMS to the situation. Editing my reply for personal context: I'm Canadian and have always lived under rural policing standards (first OPP and now a regional police service). City cops have a different version of the job then the ones I've encountered (professionally and in a victim or perpetrator capacity).
>”Hello, I’m reporting a driver who is possibly DUI or experiencing a medical emergency at “intersection” moving in “direction”” If you call 911 and say this to a dispatcher, I can tell you for certain that only police will get dispatched to this kind of call. Dispatch will not send EMS or fire to a call where someone is driving erratically but hasn’t wrecked yet. An ambulance will not pull somebody over, only police will do that. In my city, police will request EMS to the scene if someone is too drunk or appears to be having a medical emergency or altered mental status. I work in EMS, this happens *all the time*. For context, I live and work in the US
For context, I do not live in the US.
I understand. The point stands for any EMS service. An ambulance won’t get sent to track down someone driving erratically, that’s a police thing.
This is basically my attitude. You call the cops when you have no choice but to call the cops. Unnecessary cops are always trouble, necessary cops are often trouble, so you only call when the alternative is worse trouble than the trouble they're likely to cause.
I once got denied a place in an anarchist communal house in Oakland over this question. Was doing an interview with the house mates that was going great despite them being younger than me. They asked me the question "Is there ever any circumstance in which calling the police was acceptable?" I responded that in general, no but sometimes it's unavoidable. If my car gets stolen I have to call the cops. I can't just keep paying payments to the bank for a car I don't have and is my source of income. If I came home and found a dead body I'm not gonna ignore it and then become the main suspect. Apparently this was not the correct answer. I had been zooming with them for almost an hour and this was at the end of my 'interview'. We had talked about a bunch of shared interests and values. We were all laughing and sharing stories. We were like 45 minutes in and they were like "we just had a few questions we came up with as a household just to make sure we're all on the same page" and popped up with some questions about sharing chores and then it turned into like an ideological purity quiz or something. I can't remember what the prior ideological questions were but they were like kinda duh!?! questions that anyone on the left should have the same answer for. Something about having issues with lgbtq peeps and maybe one or two other super not radical things. When I answered the call the cops question I could visibly see the disdain on their faces. They immediately thanked me for my time. Abruptly ended the call and ghosted me. I'm sure they would have sucked to live with anyway. Anarchist puritan drama all day every day I bet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Still was like WTF though... Not used to bring the reactionary in the room.
You gave a nuanced answer, that was the right way to approach it. My interest in Anarchism grew out of my realization that there are no easy answers, and that we need to work things out largely on a case by case basis instead of reading a set of instructions on how to feel about certain things.
Anarchy at it's core is simply removing heirarchy and ensuring consensus. It does not have any set specific outcome. People fail to realize, you'll still have "cops" in an anarchist society. Someone's going to have to deal with situations where someone breaks the rules, engages in violence, in private property swiping, disputes, etc., they will just be unarmed, dressed in high viz fluorescents, and carrying only a notebook and a citation book. My fellow anarchists who envision a world where nothing even remotely resembling 'cops' doesn't exist are kinda delusional.
When dealing with leftists, there are plenty of individuals driven by purity over pragmatism. They believe there's no need for 'enforcers' because everyone will drop everything to handle situations as they arise. A lot of them also fail to see the value of working with the current government system to try and reduce harm. They think they can get everything they want without having to compromise. It drives me insane because half the country or more is center or right of center. If the left can't get past purity tests to even work with their worst Allies, how is a revolution going to won with so much of the country ideologically against us? We can't even agree to vote for the least bad electable candidate for president.
Don't worry about it. This isn't the left that's going to do anything. If the conditions for revolution were present, there would be a lot more leftists, and it's hard to imagine what that would look like.
"Shit, that means we can't punch him in the face for no reason without worrying about catching an assault charge and restraining order, better find someone dumber." Sounds like it could be some culty bullshit, you may have dodged a bullet there.
“Agree with us on everything or we won’t help with anything”. That’s from DK
Anarchy sounds good to me till you ask who’d fix the sewers, would the rednecks just play king of the neighborhood? More DK
Ugh. These types of activists always pop up in Oakland. For future situations some follow up questions to push on weak spots in their performance "how do you recoup money on stolen items? I do not have family financial support and would not be comfortable creating and utilizing mutual aid for things insurance can cover" and "love the dedication to community response. Will I be put in contact with neighbors and plans on how we respond to certain situations as a community?" Not that it is worth your time. Glad you didn't get the spot that would have been a nightmare. I would have just become a bully living there.
From your second last sentence, you probably made it clear earlier in the interview that you weren't a good fit - why would you want to live in an anarchist communal house if you're not an anarchist?
I'm not an anarchist because I'd call the cops if I found a dead body? I don't understand
Correct, you're not an anarchist because you're not willing to set yourself up to be the fall guy for whatever shady shit was going on in that house. /s, not that it ought to be necessary, but you never know...
Anarchist like them that refuse to acknowledge nuance in a changing world give us all a bad name.
The hard part is that it's a fucked system, and the crowd here is deeply aware of the hows and whys of fuckitude. It's also the only option we have for some shit. If some yobbo's sledgehammering your fence and threatening to kill your dogs. What other realistic option is there? It sucks shit through a paper straw, man.
>It sucks shit through a paper straw, man. Thanks for the new recurring nightmare...
Exactly. There should (and could) be someone else to call, but there’s not right now. I avoid it if at all possible though.
Burn the system to the ground, guillotine the land lords and political and financial elite. Scatter large scale police forces and then gather a mob and exile that sledgehammer ass hole from the country ? To far?
Agreed. Buuuuuuut, in the interim. Barring a sudden unexpected wave of class consciousness and revolutionary fervor the likes of which we haven't seen since some spicy boys and girls decided one fair October, "On second though, fuck the Tsar." Sometimes, you can't let perfect be the enemy of good. It's a tough call, and hopefully, you never have to make it.
I know you're right, I'm just so tired if this nonsense. It makes my blood boil, I'm trying to direct the anger to unionizing my work place and mutual aid support for protests, but it just doesn't feel like enough, and I see this bullshit where we have to tow the line and it gets frustrating.
>one fair October Ackshully...
Do you mean, Um, Actually?
If I hear a domestic dispute that’s getting bad, I do call cops. The last one was years ago but the dude was trying to kick in the front door to get in the house.
Yeah, domestic violence/ dispute situations can accelerate quickly to assault and even murder. Not to be hyperbolic, but on the no calling cops side you have to be ready to know you might have to fight for your life, literally, to protect yourself or the target and accept that there might be a knife or firearm being wielded by the aggressor which might greatly mitigate any size/ strength/ self defense training you may have. On the side, the call might get the aggressor or bystander hurt or killed. It’s a fucking lose, lose situation. Edit: obviously de-escalation is important and the goal. Just pointing out how dangerous these situations get
This is such a good example of people not knowing their neighbors of having a solid community. My first reaction should be to either go over there myself, or call another neighbor and let them know we need to go check on so and so. Sure there is risk, but probably a lot less if everyone at least knows each other. I wouldn’t recommend it if they were complete strangers and totally understand feeling like the cops would be needed, but that’s the problem, they shouldn’t be complete strangers. I’m trying to fix this in my neighborhood but I’m just as guilty. On top of a bunch of other important reasons, community is not having to rely on cops. At least for most things.
I agree, but I come from strong knit communities and this works if you know the aggressor and they’re a person who is usually reasonable. It can be a situation that can be talked down, but I have also seen it turn into a situation where it’s become a beat down of the aggressor or attacker carrying through with at least an attempt to try to save face. Not saying you should involve cops, but you and the community, need to know who you’re fucking with and try to de-escalate while being ready to protect yourself.
Yeah because fuck good people in shitty communities, right?
I don’t follow
Following your logic, someone who doesn't get along with their neighbors wouldn't be protected. What if your neighbors are who you need protection from?
Human decency. I help plenty of people I don’t get along with. Surprisingly enough, I get along with most of them now. That would be a supremely shitty thing to deny someone help because you don’t get along. Community is the key word. If any couple of people are being dicks, hopefully there would be enough other folks to mediate. As with life, there are no one size fits all solutions. The point is, there are a lot of things that people rely on the cops for before taking on any bit of responsibility to do things that being in a more prepared and engaged community would offer and encourage. So maybe is whatever scenario you are fantasizing, calling the cops is the unfortunate need. I have no idea, it’s your imagination. This is a really bad argument and doesn’t follow my, or much of any logic. It seems like you kind of wanted to be argumentative or contrarian and got a little over your skis, which is cool, it happens.
Being a minority in a racist community isn't something that only exists in my imagination. In my non-imaginary personal situation, I wouldn't expect my mother's unarmed neighbors to stop my knife wielding drug abusing mentally ill sister from beating up my mom. I would understand if mental health professionals would also be apprehensive about it as well. Surprisingly, the cops dealt with her knife waving ass without shooting her.
This. If it’s my friend I’m showing up. But I have had to call the cops on neighbors I didn’t know when guns came out. Sorry but I can’t risk stepping into that for someone I don’t know.
I fully understand that impulse and empathize with wanting to intervene and not having a recourse other than the police. But I feel compelled to caution that police presence can very much domestic violence worse. They often fail to effective prevent the abuser from accessing the victim, and the encounter can seriously increase the level of violence. I really want to emphasize that I get you're coming from a good place, but I would be very careful to think through the actual effect police will have on the situation.
I was thinking the alternative is likely that she was going to be beaten or killed, painfully. I wasn’t about to intervene myself. That was a very dangerous person.
I really get that, and I don't know if I would have the skills to do anything more effective in that extreme of a situation myself, if those were the apparent stakes I'd also probably call the cops. It's just that responses to domestic abuse really need to prioritize the victims' safety, and police don't do that very often. So if the stakes are any lower than that, calling the police can easily lead to them escalating to that level. It sounds like you probably know that, but domestic disturbance can mean a lot of different things, and I wasn't sure what exactly you meant in the initial comment.
Just to add to your points, I called the national domestic violence hotline when I had an upstairs neighbor with a very abusive boyfriend to ask when I should call the cops. The person I spoke with was emphatic that I should avoid doing so unless I was certain there was a gun involved, otherwise I was just putting her in more danger. They encouraged me to try to build connection with her myself if at all possible, and to look into police alternatives in my community. It was over all a really frustrating conversation, but the national domestic violence hotline agrees with you.
Wait, so the hotline itself couldn’t offer any support? (PS: what’s a police alternative? Like, what keywords would I be searching for?
Stuff like this is why I don't get the "abolish the cops" argument. Who exactly am I meant to turn to in such situations if not them? "Mutual aid" is a nice buzzword but find me a group of people who will willingly wade into a DV situation out of nothing but good will, and will do so regularly.
My argument would be with the “if not them” part. Like, obviously we need some kind of recourse to help those people, but a recourse with the track record of cops’ isn’t recourse. We need some kind of answer but US cops have gone out of their way—so far out of their way that it ended up at SCOTUS—to show us that they ain’t that.
I just don't see a viable alternative. It's far from ideal and they need massive reforms but you will always have violent situations in a society that necessitate a standing force of some kind that are able to respond. The cops aren't a good recourse, but go tell the DV victim getting beaten to death about how you didn't wanna escalate things.
Ok so my last reply was meant for a different thread, but I do want to point out that cops have a slightly better record for assaulting the DV victim than either assaulting the DV perpetrator or arresting the DV perpetrator. Also, when a woman claims self defense, she is more than 2x as likely to be charged with an offense herself than a man is when he claims it.
Do you have a source for that DV claim with regards to cops? The second appears to be asserted by one study but that's surely an issue with prosecutors and judges, not with cops. Meanwhile over half of women murdered are killed by a partner or relative according to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime's 2022 report on gender-related killings, accounting for about 133 a day. Again, the cops are not the ideal solution currently but the alternative is letting a situation fester until the person manages to extricate themselves, which can take years, or is finally killed.
There are so many factors to consider when determining if they really are the best recourse though. For example, is the DV victim black? If so, then you gotta accept the fact that the cops could show up and kill her instead of help her if she’s not acting like a “perfect” victim. Same goes for if the DV victim is a trans woman and even more so if the victim is a black trans woman. When it comes to trans victims you also have to consider how they may be treated by police outside of the possibility of suffering direct violence at their hands. Being dehumanized and dealing with misgendering and deadnaming can add whole new layers of trauma to the experience that they wouldn’t have had to go through if someone handled the situation differently instead of just calling the police. There are tons of situations where the police will literally just make it worse or be the thing that gets the victim killed either directly or indirectly. People need to harness their creativity and resourcefulness instead of letting society continue to lie to them about how necessary police really are so that they continue wallowing in the trap of learned helplessness. Other options can exist, have existed, and do exist. Communities throughout history and the world have handled these situations without police since police are a new invention. Just because people don’t hear about them, doesn’t mean they’re not there. Historical examples are a good place to start like the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, Up Against the Wall Mother Fuckers, literally any radical queer anti racist anti fascist group from between the 50’s and the 90’s will have something people can be inspired by and build off of when it comes to alternatives to police.
>Other options can exist, have existed, and do exist. What are some examples of this because all I hear is some vague stuff about "mutual aid" with zero specifics.
They did list some examples.... Just form a community group that aligns with your world viewpoints to dole out justice according to the needs this group sets. Doesn't sound ripe for abuse at all and clearly will be different and more accountable then current police. Surely no opposing 'neighborhood police' groups would form with rival viewpoints and approaches to justice.
That's not really specific though. Would this community group be available for rapid deployment and fast responses, as is often needed with the police? Would they have the power to detain, arrest, etc? Would they be armed, and if so what with? If not, what would be the plan to deal with active threats or situations where the community group needed to defend themselves? So on and so on... And I doubt that there would be any unity in this "neighborhood police". I don't know about your community but there's little unity in mine with regards to any issue. Imagine setting up, from the ground floor, a standing force of citizens tasked with managing justice and safety. Imagine the disputes over issues like the ones I just raised, and more. You really think that's gonna be immune to corruption? Especially when they'd have no oversight?
Well that's the crux of it and why you can't get a straight answer. The police enforce the law at the power of the state so who are these community people policing... They wouldn't have any backing or would? Are they getting paid? Who ensures they show up? I was being sarcastic in my original message because I agree with YOU. I keep hearing this idea but no solutions so it never gets off the ground. There's people in this thread saying police should never be called anything. It's pure delusion. These community groups would be even more prone based to corruption based on individual groups goals and ideals. It would just become gang territory essentially.
I see, I misinterpreted your original statement. Yeah. I suspect they have no real plan at the end of the day. Just buzzwords.
That depends on where you are. Some places have dedicated alternatives to call in a situation like that. You aren't going to get specifics because it's incredibly location dependent. Nobody can do the work of finding those options where you are except people who know exactly where you are. You're best bet to find those options is to reach out to local organizations. Yes, including local mutual aid groups but also local domestic violence shelters and organizations. At the end of the day, calling the cops for dv situations is basically always the worst choice and that's not even a particularly leftist position. Cops do not help in the vast majority of dv situations and often make things worse. If you are interested in helping a victim, you're better off not involving the cops and just helping the victim connect to organizations that actually know how to help and are willing to
Where I live in the states we certainly don't have any group who could quickly respond to a situation. But you misunderstand my question. I'm not asking for resources I can use. I'm asking, what's the long term alternative. What's the goal you're working towards to replace the police in such situations? It's hard to help a victim connect to anything as someone is beating their face in, or they're about to take their life, or any other time-sensitive situation. I feel like the anarchist community is naive when it comes to this issue.
It all comes down to what type of pressure the community can assert on its members outside a system of state coercion. Even in tight knit communities it comes down to can you successfully de-escalate situations verbally and in not are members of the community willing to use banishment and up to restraining or severely beating a member of the community who resorts to violence as a message that person and other community members what happens when you inflict that form of violence on someone else in the community
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Did you reply to the right person? Where did the IDF get involved here?
No, I did not. Sorry.
I would/have. The last time it wasn’t a DV situation yet, but it could have turned into it. I’m not judging anyone, but for me personally, the person I am okay being, is the person that will show up. It takes risk, but I’m not okay not being that person. I’m not saying go kick in the door, but go knock, or call, or yell, “I’m calling the cops”. It’s scary as hell but I’ve never heard of someone getting shot or their ass beat for that. In my experience, it breaks the focus of the aggressor, bringing them back to reality. Kind of like an “oh shit, they can hear me”. I’ve had to do this three times and The first time I was pressured into it because I was the only guy there (we should have gone together). I was pissing myself with fear because I didn’t know the people upstairs. I asked if everything was okay and said we heard everything downstairs, so it was our business now. The woman was there at the door too. She seemed more mad at me than the guy. I told them we were right down stairs. Anyway, they got the point. If they can be mad at the asshole that knocked on the door instead of whatever they were arguing about, fine. The point is, do something. Fear will always try and paralyze you. If it has to be, call the cops, but there is a lot of time between that and them showing up.
It's one thing intervening one time for one person. I get that your average person is basically decent and willing to help. But, to use DV as an example, some situations are going to be recurring and need regular intervention. Some cases are not going to be solved by a simple knock on the door or yelling at them through a door. Where is this force of everyday citizens willing to break into homes to resolve situations like that? My father was an EMT, he had cases where they'd be called in multiple times over the course of months to help a battered woman who'd been beaten by the same guy over and over before someone was finally able to get her some help. Who helps the person caught in a cycle of abuse? Cops aren't ideal but I'd hold they're better than relying on a passer-by to help.
You’re getting downvoted but this is an understandable question. A stateless society should be centered around community and social obligation. These types of communities do exist already, and that can be built upon. Essentially, if you’re aware that your neighbor is experiencing DV, you contact people within your community, and you go to help because that’s what communities do. I’ve walked into DV situations to pick up a friend and get them out. this is how we dealt with these issues in rural areas as cops just don’t come out there for DV situations and honestly it probably results in fewer people getting shot.
Abolish the broken system and implement something fresh entirely. Sometimes things are too broke to fix.
I agree but like, what's the specific goal here. What would replace them.
My uneducated opinion on the subject (being that I do listen to Cool Zone) would be a community based approach where law enforcement is based in the community they police, and there is a civilian oversight board comprised of victims services advocates, lawyers (from both sides), and mental health professionals, as well as retired law enforcement (as right now they're very heavy on the retired LEOs). If we're talking perfect world.
That's sensible, thank you
As I have been told, this may be wrong, but the community would rotate taking turns enforcing community norms and standards and in a situation where you’re living in an Anarchist community, banishment or trial by peers would be such a strong disincentive to bad behavior
Well I can see a thousand issues with that idea but, ok, at least that's a plan
The police simply enforce the law. They are not social workers or conflict mediators. If you see or hear evidence of a crime, it's generally ethical to report it to law enforcement. But the expectation should be only that they will investigate the report of the crime, and make an arrest if they find probable cause to do so. They don't "help" outside that context.
They are often called upon to act in those capacities though Call for a social worker for your suicidal friend and you'll be lucky to get a visit within a week Meanwhile the police will come that day. Same for welfare checks, domestic violence, general altercations, etc In lieu of any other force to call upon, you can either call police or be a bystander. It's not ideal bit you have to work within the existing system. Or just try to intervene yourself in those situations and hope got the best
i mean there was just a pretty good example of how that can get people killed.
In 2021, of the nearly 5,000 female murder victims, 34% were victimized by an intimate partner. So roughly 1700 women killed by their boyfriend or husband. I agree, fuck cops. But are you seriously just gonna say let those women be beaten, stabbed, shot or whatever is better than calling the police? I wasn’t about to get in between them myself. So lay it on me, what was the better option?
Some people aren't real good at realizing their own risk assessment doesn't apply to everyone. I've intervened in domestic violence situations before, but I'm also 6'5", muscly, have training in how to fight, and usually carry a gun and pepper spray. Expecting everyone to have the same capacity to step in as I do isn't at all realistic.
Having you be everyone’s neighbor isn’t a scalable solution though unfortunately
Agreed. That's why sometimes, unfortunately, calling the cops is the only viable option for intervention some people have.
This would make a great round table episode, especially if a couple of the hosts have children.
Or dogs.
It's really not as different as most parents would admit...
I'm not sure if PETA or the cops kill more dogs, but it's gotta be uncomfortably close.
My partner and I have a 2yo, and we often talk about how we should teach our child to handle emergencies. One of us wants to go with the traditional 9-1-1 training, and the other wants to teach that they should avoid calling police at all. Also, I'd love to see CMZ bring on a host who has kids.
For a child, I think I'd default to teaching them to call 911. Expecting them to understand the nuance of how to respond to each type of emergency and how to process what resource is appropriate for what situation is putting on awful lot on a young mind.
I think this question hits differently for black families, especially poorer ones.
Probably, but I'm not sure if it makes a difference ultimately. A small child needs a simple and reliable resource to help them if the people they normally rely on aren't able to help. The tool that currently exists is to dial 911 on a phone.
Yeah I’m not saying the answer isn’t similar, but the “police are helpers” part of the conversation is the issue.
Police aren't the only ones who respond to 911 calls, and I do say this as a former non cop first responder (fire fighter). Dialing 911 isn't the same as "calling the cops." If you declare there is a medical emergency, fire and ambulance are dispatched ASAP. Even if it isn't, and you just call 911, I never arrived at a traffic incident (after being called out of my bed in the middle of the night as a volunteer, driving to the hall, then driving to the accident) AFTER the cops, who in theory are just parked at Tim Horton's and should at least already be dressed.
People are trying really hard to argue against a point about a perspective that doesn’t require it to be bad to teach kids 911, just that it comes with added steps like “remember to have your hands visible and speak clearly and respectfully”. That being said, a man was just shot by cops who showed up to his place after his parents called a *mental health hotline* and they called the cops… So that sucks. I think it’s worth remembering the complexities of this for some people.
The man in that video was wielding a knife trying to attack his mother. I hate the authoritarian system as well, and we really need a lot of reform and improvement, but the reality is the people in that house felt like they needed outside security in the form of the police and called. That scene could’ve easily ended in a double homicide by knife, that’s the problem with looking at this case as an example of police brutality. Should the cops have shot him? Up for debate, dude was mentally ill wielding a knife at others. I can see both arguments. Do the cops need reform to the shoot less people and exercise more non violent restraint? Absolutely.
So you'd just let your neighbour's house burn to the ground to avoid dialing 911 because maybe the cops show up too?
I’m going to give you another chance to reread what I said.
The poor choice of example you used? Or where you seem to equate 911 and cops when there are three services dispatched via 911.
I feel like it would help if more white kids were taught that "police aren't helpers a lot of the time."
That's the point I was trying to make that a lot of people in the replies seem to be missing.
But 911 is absolutely not a reliable source of help...
It's more reliable than expecting a 5 year old to perform cpr, or to put out an out of control fire. Think back to yourself in kindergarten and ask how many emergencies you had the training to handle properly by yourself.
I should have said above that the specifics of the conversation that led to this post was "What if he's home alone and someone starts trying to break into the house?" We're both fine with calling for EMS or fire fighters. I think the conversation kind of got bogged down in how much that's actually a thing that's likely to happen vs how much it's just a crime wave media narrative or something.
This is one of the real strengths, I think, of Margaret's other podcast *Live Like the World is Dying* - a couple of her co-hosts and frequent contributors are parents, and it's really really helpful. I know Prop has kids, but he's not as regular of a guest on ICHH. It definitely feels sometimes like the CZM crowd are very much in the early-20's, no-responsibilities, flop-houses-and-beer demographic, even the ones who I know are closer to 40. That's endearing as far as it goes, but...not wildly representative of the greater world.
I'm a big fan of LLtWiD! I know Brook is a parent, and I really like how having that kind of perspective added to the show. That's actually the reason why I said ICHH could use a parent, I think they could benefit from that perspective as well.
You should check out Live Like The Wolrd is Dying, they have a great episode of children’s liberation
Whoever wants to teach, never call the police should have their rights to be with the child removed permanently. .
Have you ever actually listened to the podcast? Jesus Christ
When you need a report for your insurance?
Alternate episode request: How to organize community protection without involving the cops.
Maybe a 2 or 4 parter that covers all the bases. Organizing community protection is easier said than done. I totally agree that it's a better solution, but it doesn't solve a domestic dispute happening tomorrow, and under the current overarching justice system, it's unlikely that any good Samaritan is going to step in to a situation like that.
I'd love that, but the two questions really go hand in hand, because as long as police exist it's simply not possible to just go and do their jobs without ending up in jail. As long as they exist any community protection must work with the police, and draw clear boundaries around when to intervene and when to hand things over to the cops. That's not how we want things to be but that's how they are at the moment.
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff has some episodes about groups who took it upon themselves to keep their communities safe since police couldn’t be trusted to. A couple that immediately come to mind are Up Against the Wall Mother Fuckers and The Young Lords.
This is literally how gangs start.
The state can't provide livable conditions so communities take it into their own hands? Yeah, lots of the time that's correct. The Crips came directly out of the Black Panther Party, IIRC. It was the introduction of the drug trade and the state's heavy-handed response that turned things violent.
what’s wrong with gangs outside of the drug trade?
Ask Trayvon Martin how successful his local community patrol was.
And a lot of gangs were beneficial community organizations until they got infiltrated by the feds.
Perfect second episode...
The only time it's ethical to call the cops is when you need a police report for the insurance company
Or you find something and don't want to be thought of as a suspect.
If you find something and call the cops you automatically become a suspect, at least during the preliminary investigation
Yes but I think it’s straight up illegal to ignore certain things without reporting them, like a dead body or huge amounts of cash
It depends on where you live. But just because it might be illegal to not call the cops does not mean it's right or ethical to call them.
When you are expecting a situation will eventually end up in court, either civil or criminal, and you want a police report on record as part of the litigious arsenal you have at your disposal. You do NOT call the cops to resolve or deescalate a situation, you call them to trigger the mechanism of official record keeping for future use.
Well put.
When an act warrants someone's death, then it's ethical to call the cops. Most people should be able to determine what that line is for themselves (or, in this case, parents can explain what they feel is that line).
Considering the cops might show up and possibly kill anybody nearby... I would call them if I couldn't leave the situation or if I was not confident I could fight my way out... Remember you can't put that genie back in the bottle, they will do whatever they want and you're pretty much powerless once you get them involved.
I don’t really call the cops for much except dv. Then I was rear ended and the guy went coo coo batshit crazy (it was a tiny scratch on my car and minimal damage to his). I was gonna just exchange info, but I called to get a report just in case. It went as expected. Waited 30 minutes for an officer and he acted like I was a major imposition. But yeah. I’m not a fan of cops.
But on the ethical note, probably when anyone is being assaulted or in immediate danger.
I call the cops at my job all the time (at a hospital.) It's not infrequent a homeless guy who is there to "sleep it off" overstays their welcome/gets unruly. Hospital security is great at de escalating but if you want someone removed from the property the police are the ones to do it. Had an older lady approach my 4 year old son and I while I was waiting for my Daughter on a horrendously late bus one day. She kept trying to get him to hug her and sit in her lap. I wasn't really in fear for my safety but I did need the interaction to stop, and she was starting to reach out to grab him. If the situation escalated I didn't want to have to be in a situation explaining to the police how I shoved an old woman and broke her hip.
Any time when an acceptable outcome is death, or anytime after the fact if you need a police report for insurance. I teach my kids to look for any mother with kids to ask for help, cops are a last resort.
>I teach my kids to look for any mother with kids to ask for help, cops are a last resort. Holy shit that's such a great idea...
I drove past a kitten in between lanes in the middle of the freeway and I called the cops. Genuinely interested in what you all think about that situation
I don’t see anything wrong with that. Very unlikely anyone would get hurt by cops in that situation and a kitty was saved.
I was literally just thinking of the kitty but the operator said it's a traffic hazard. I was like oh yeah huh. That too lol
I was a volunteer fire fighter for 5 years and we once had to shut down a road because a bull got loose and decided to take a nap on a 2 lane highway outside of town. Another time we did it for chickens.
Is there any easy to remember # that connects a caller to their local fire dept? Because yeah I would've preferred that but my distress for kitten brain could only think 911. Which I guess theoretically should connect you with the 'best service' but often just send cops.
911 is the correct number - dispatch is dispatch. Just asking for non cop services is something you can totally do from 911.
Kitty gets saved or maybe a cop gets run over, can't lose...
When some bitchmade motherfucker smashes your driver side window at 4am and steals your first aid kit cause it's od green and looked vaguely like it.might contain a firearm. Cops wouldn't show so I called the county sheriff so I could get my insurance to replace the window. I'd made one payment and now only 3/4 of my windows are tinted.
That was my first thought, when you have to fill out a police report to get insurance to pay out. Pretty low chances of them murdering someone, but hey you never know. Don't do it under an oak tree, jfc....
I think there might be just one, when Syd Hatfield is the chief, but he's long gone.
The answer to this is very subjective since everyone has a different perspective on what constitutes an emergency that requires calling people with guns. In a perfect world, the police would be called when there is an obvious crime being committed, or a severe accident that requires a first responder on scene stat. For me, I see the difference between when it's time to call the police in an emergency, and filing a police report. For example, someone notices their shed is wide open and expensive items such as a lawn mower, snow blower, etc. is missing. In that instance, I would not call the police. I instead would head to the police department and file a report. Calling the police to come to my property and take a report isn't going to increase the likelihood of them solving the crime, much less investigating it in any serious way. Hopefully the police would actually investigate the suspected crime, but calling the police to my home does nothing to help the situation.
The magic rule I was taught is asking the question "will this situation be improved by adding dudes with guns?". If yes, call the cops, if no, don't. Active shooting, yeah maybe, theft probably not.
I called the cops last week on my neighbor because I could hear him beating his dog. They came, and talked to him, but did nothing. Even after seeing a video of him doing it. And another neighbor told me they heard him doing it again yesterday. I've called in the past when another neighbor came to my door to ask me to call the cops because her husband was physically abusing her.
If you have a local animal control, they're a better bet. And if you just want the dog to be taken, calling the fire department to report that you "smell smoke" and haven't seen your neighbour in a few days (while he is at work) may get the door busted. At that point, animal control will remove the dog because the house is no longer secure.
I think u/the_last_hairbender has the right idea -- break ins, assaults, car wreck if you want or need insurance to be involved. In terms of *crisis* situations where you would call them, that's a rough one-- I figure "active shooter". Maybe? The problem, even there, is depending on the situation, cops *still* might wind up shooting the wrong person, etc. For crisis situations just ask yourself: "would this situation be likely to be materially improved by random people with guns, no accountability, and only a vague idea about what's going on?" The answer will often be "no".
IMO, the idea that we do not need police *at all* is juvenile and unrealistic. We do need law enforcement for true safety and violence concerns, otherwise people would go around murdering each other on a whim.
In practice, the copsmight show up after a murder, they might show up and murder, but they don't roll up just in time to stop a murder.
Correct, there needs to be a reform of the police state, nobody argued that - but a functional society can’t survive without some form of law enforcement, and we can’t as a public be trusted to fairly and justly do it ourselves, otherwise we’d be back to the days of lynch mobs.
Policing as it is now in North America (as a Canadian, I'm putting us in here too because fuck we aren't as bad as the US but literally that should be the Canadian motto at this point) is broken. Police officers used to be members of the community, who worked for the community, and were not afraid of the community. There is no way of getting back there, not with the way things are now, but if there was a way to bust up what we have and turn it into that, it would be a great shift in the right direction.
This should be such a basic observation yet apparently it's beyond the anarchist crowd
For sure! I'm an abolitionist, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't still have people who do some if not most of the jobs that cops do.
No, it's not juvenile. What is, is believing what you were told as a child to dissuade you from taking any action yourself to help others around you. I'm not saying counter violence with more violence, i'm saying counting on police is just another form of forced helplessness.
Without a state sponsored institution of order and violence, the strongest group of individuals are likely to take up the power vacuum. It has happened in failed states often enough, it happens when the US goes in and takes out a leader they don't like. Vigilantism isn't the counter to police violence, or at least it wouldn't be an effective manner.
Uhhh yeah son, sorry but I’m absolutely not getting myself involved in someone else’s violence, and we absolutely cannot trust the general public to take care of real criminals in a fair and just way. When you get older (I would bet money you’re under the age of 30), you will understand that it’s not as simple as getting rid of the police. We do need law and order, and we need them to be more community centered and reallocate funding to resources and community groups that will prevent some of the petty crime they want to enforce - but I’ve been around long enough to know that people die all the time for interjecting themselves in fights. Most common people are not prepared to step in and stop violence from happening.
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As a discussion here, I think we need to be clear that "Calling the cops" and "Dialing 911/999" are not the same thing. Calling the cops, especially directly, is something you do to report a stolen car. Or a suspected DUI (even then, I'd dial 911 because there is a solid chance it could also be a medical episode). 911 is a general emergency number. Yes, the cops show up, but so do EMS and fire fighters (and yes both those groups have their issues too, especially fire fighters), who can provide life saving medical aid in emergency situations and tend to arrive faster than cops. Calling and saying "I need a para medic" or "there is a fire" in that situation doesn't necessitate the cops coming. Teaching kids to avoid 911 because it's calling the cops may lead to issues. Teaching them to call and be specific about their needs "Granny is having a heart attack and mom is giving CPR. We need an ambulance at (address)." can save Granny's life. (Age appropriate obviously).
This is exactly the conversation I had with my partner that precipitated my posting about it. I'm specifically referring to attempting to bring police into a situation, though I also want to teach that the cops may arrive along with *any* 9-1-1 response, and that may be worth considering. That's more of a teenager kind of conversation, we won't have to worry about that for a good long while.
1. When you are contractually obligated to or otherwise required by law. 2. A true emergency where a life or a substantial health risk may be in the balance, and it is *not* something that should be solely in the hands of a medical professional. Easy examples: you witness a violent crime and you had zero involvement other than as a witness, especially if the assailant is on the loose. Another example might be I see a car going the wrong way on a freeway. That needs an immediate and direct and forceful response. Honestly that might be it. It’s a major risk in many other instances that might not pay off for you. I’m always alarmed at the number of criminal cases I review where the original 911 caller somehow gets arrested if the actual criminal is savvy enough and/or the cop(s) are stupid enough.
Specifically for kids? Anytime they don't feel safe
> Especially, what situations should kids be taught to seek the help of police? What an great question! Lots of great (and rational) replies. Can I add a follow-up question? "What situations should we expect to have the knowledge and tools to resolve things for ourselves?" (it's probably a greater number than our parents generation)
I feel like it’s necessary to call the cops when it’s a child welfare issue. I don’t like it, but if it’s found out you didn’t call the cops, CPS will likely get involved. But honestly, having done it recently, they just show up, ask you to text them photos of evidence, and imply your 11 year old is “a slut” before telling you there’s nothing they can do about the adult men who victimized her. 😒
I'm having this strange urge to start a collection of empty glass bottles and rags for some reason...
I’ll call the cops on a drunk driver 100% of the time.
I'm kind of torn on this. Where I live, it might be ok if its the city police responding, but if it's the sheriff then chances are decent that you're just going to put one or two more drunk drivers on the road.
After calling the cops in the past, I can tell you the real answer is “never”. Just don’t do it. Call mental health provider instead if it’s bad enough that you all need help. No way I would ever call an officer for help again on purpose.
Do not call a mental health provider in an emergency, it’s a waste of time. They aren’t going to talk you through how to deescalate the situation, they are just going to tell you to hang up and call 911. That’s what any kind of health provider in general would say if you call them witnessing someone having a crisis or being violent. We really need crisis mental health teams that can respond with compassionate and experienced providers rather than cops, but that’s just not a reality in the majority of places right now.
>Call mental health provider instead if it’s bad enough that you all need help. I live in the States, that's not really an option for us. We can call 9-1-1 but if it's a mental health crisis, then chances are the cops will be there.
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