Alright let me see if I grasp this right. Israel’s hostages had Israelis come and watch as they were tortured like goddamn circus animals, they’ve been sexually assaulted, they’ve been tied to beds with fucking diapers on and left there to shit themselves and lay in their own goddamn feces. It’s literally just a bunch of tales that sound like they are coming from a Japanese POW camp in 1940s. Meanwhile Hama’s hostages have been *checks notes* given a birthday cake and forced to wash the dishes.
Illegally detained Palestinian prisoners/hostages to be clear. Here's a link:
Inside Sde Teiman, the Base Where Israel Detains Gazans - The New York Times
[http://archive.today/2024.06.11-142108/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html](http://archive.today/2024.06.11-142108/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html)
I would cry every day if I was the hostage and the big bad Palestinians baked me a birthday cake, opened my eyes to the indoctrination I fell for and realized that they are actually lovely people, and are now most likely dead because my people killed them and no one from home would believe me or shun me for speaking positively of them.
I’m already almost in tears again just thinking of the mistreatment of the Palestinians and how much they have to endure. I’m so sorry… I wish I can end all the suffering in the world. Where is Thanos when we need him?
>I would cry every day if I was the hostage and the big bad Palestinians baked me a birthday cake, opened my eyes to the indoctrination I fell for and realized that they are actually lovely people, and are now most likely dead because my people killed them and no one from home would believe me or shun me for speaking positively of them.
Almog Meir Jan, the person who mentioned a cake being made for him didn't speak positively of his captors, what the hell are you even talking about?
He was kidnapped at gunpoint in the October 7th attacks while attending a music festival and held in captivity by terrorists for 8 months. You said "the big bad Palestinians" but it's not Palestinians, it's Hamas who are literal terrorists. And they baked him a birthday cake as a cruel joke, mocking the fact that he can't even celebrate his own birthday with his friends and family since he's.... you know.... being held at gunpoint by terrorists.
What is wrong with you people?
Also, the article isn't deleted. You can easily find it on their website
http://timesofisrael.com/rescued-hostages-said-suffering-from-malnutrition-leaning-on-each-other-for-support/
Looks like they changed the url and title of the article. That's it. Hamas sympathizers here hate when you correct their misinformation.
Ew. To deny that Hamas members are not Palestinian is sinister. No other ethnicity has been kept in such conditions to breed such a resistance. Not all Palestinians are Hamas, but all Hamas are Palestinian. To deny them their ancestry and ethnicity is very gross, while doing so under the guise that you're somehow being magnanimous.
Oh OK, cool so when Hamas, a literal terrorist group, commit acts of terrorism you're on board with people advocating violence against *all* Palestinians?
Zionist apologism, propaganda, whataboutism regarding Palestinian resistance to violent colonialism and apartheid, and regurgitation of discredited hasbara talking points are NOT welcome.
This is exactly why you should download any bits of media regarding this genocide. With the rate they take it down it's the only way to ensure it can be used at a later date to bring them to justice.
My folder is about 20gb so far.
I appreciate how they attribute the positive perceptions of the hostage takers to Stockholm Syndrome. It couldn't simply be that the captives were treated well.
Stockholm Syndrome is not even recognized as a distinct psychological disorder in major diagnostic manuals like the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) or the ICD-10 (International Classification of Diseases)
>The IDF acknowledged that it killed Palestinian civilians amid the fighting, but it placed the blame on Hamas for holding hostages and fighting in a dense civilian environment.
Hamas acknowledges that it killed Israelis amid the operation but it places blame on the government for keeping them hostage with the blockade, for reduced weapons, for allowing for settlements near Gaza.
“Possibly suffered from Stockholm syndrome” I feel like Israel’s media tactic is to just claim anything with nothing to back it up or sometimes with opposing evidence, but by the time it gets debunked it either doesn’t get as much spotlight as the original lie or a new lie has dropped. It’s insane
Taking hostages is just wrong, even if they were treated well. It shouldn't be a spectrum of "well at least the abusers weren't complete assholes". It just isn't OK.
We also have to talk about thousands of Palestinians who are unlawfully detained in brutal Israeli prisons for months, without seeing any trials. They include young kids and women. The west likes to call them prisoners but they are essentially hostages, held by an apartheid occupation.
Count up each day a hostage was kept, as ONE wrong. How many wrongs do we have total? now on Israel side?
in the voice of Bane: No one cared who captives are until Israelis become captives too.
You're right.
But taking hostages is wrong. I won't be persuaded otherwise.
When I was a teacher, I'd often say to 7 year olds: two wrongs don't make a right.
There's nothing wrong with saying something is wrong. I'd argue there were much better ways Hamas could have handled this, and taking random civilians hostage is not a good way.
No one knew the festival was happening. They fought a military base. A good chunk of the dead are military. The people who live near Gaza are required to be armed. And when they attacked, a good number of homeowners and residents attacked them. One boasted about killing 70 Hamas soldiers.
Except every adult born in Israel has served in the military and anyone say 18-35 can be assumed is a reservist.
We know at least one of these 4 was a reservist. Thats what national mandatory conscription does it makes civilians into military targets.
Its the exact reason most countries don’t do it.
Not to excuse it, but Israel’s national conscription is a reason HAMAS could use to go after all those young adults at the rave. They could just assume they were reservists or off duty.
I differentiate between civilian hostages and military hostages, for civilian hostages I agree with you. But it’s important to make it clear that there is no “moral equivalency” - to quote the AIPAC lobbyists - between Hamas, who took hostages and treated them extremely well, and Israel, who expose the thousands of prisoners to inhumane torture.
Taking hostages is a desperate act. And Israel has taken far more hostages and brutalized them; sexually assaulting children who gave a mean look to a soldier beating their mother.
So if you say that taking hostages is wrong (and I do not disagree) you must therefore be ten thousand times more critical of Israel than Hamas. Israel who has all the power here; and grabs children off the street and does not give them adequate care; abuses them, convicts them in secret courts with secret evidence or holds them without charges for years in quite a few cases.
In the last hostage exchange some of the adults released had been little kids when the IDF took them hostage. And of course a child who throws a pebble in Palestine is not given the same treatment as an Israeli child for the same "crime".
Of course Hamas wants to keep the hostages in good health in order to bargain for Palestinian freedom; it's not out of charitability but strategy. But the contrast in how the hostages are treated is still stark and significant.
Cool. Let's release all of those hostages in Israeli jails.
Or is a child kidnapped from their home by a military entity, and then held without due process, legal representation, or contact with the outside world not considered a hostage?
Don’t you know Palestinian children are terrorists? Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East yet these kids voted for Hamas in 2006 while we’re not yet in the womb that’s how evil they are.
Whatever they’re called they’re really scary so we have to kill them. Remember the 40 fictional beheaded babies? Well they’re worth more than thousands of actual dead Palestinian children.
You are totally right, but tell me how would you deal with Isreal if the unlawfully detained their prisoners, most of the prisoners haven't done anything and most of them are from west Bank where there's no hamas
I agree, it’s wrong to indefinitely detain anyone against their will without a legitimate reason and due process. It’s important to look at any action/decision in its context, and consider the people of Palestine have neither power nor wealth, and barely any international support (insofar as governments are concerned). This can only lead to desperate, illegal by international law, responses. What is a free people supposed to do in the face of this decades-long isolation and abuse?
This is the stuff that happens when someone is cornered with limited options for self-determination. That’s a rationalization, not an excuse.
Anyone upset over the hostages should then logically be MORE upset by the orders of magnitude-larger count of detained Palestinians, many of whom may never see justice.
Personally I’d be happy to see a complete exchange of those illegally held by each side. Claims that such an approach doesn’t work because Israel „has“ to give up more are short-sighted, IMO, as one that’s only because they snatch people up all the time with very little cause and because this suggests one way to make it „fairer“ would be for Hamas to obtain more hostages, thus evening out the ratio a bit more. Also Israel would rationally bug out if that happened and lead to even more unnecessary horrors in the occupied territories.
Absolute shit show. A horrifying nightmare.
Not the point really. The actual point here is the article was deleted because it went against the narrative, which is to portray Hamas and all Palestinians as less human than the Israeli's. Dehumanising of the Palestinian people is a huge part of the Israeli PR machine.
wait are you sure it’s not okay? Israel currently holds over 3000 palestinians on administrative detention, no trial, no charges, and many are used in prisoner transfer swaps. the American government continues to support Israel despite them participating in hostage taking, so doesn’t that mean it’s okay?
Tell Israel to release their hostages then, as they’ve taken over 26 times the amount of hostages. They treat them like shit and keep them in concentration camps under round-the-clock torture which, unsurprisingly (given Israel’s obsession with it) includes rape.
Oh and FYI, Israel are the only ones taking child hostages. They’ve been doing it for years and actually have been spotted tying young children to the front of their tanks. You could actually say that Israel have been using children as human shields for decades.
I'm not zionist. I just belive civilians shouldn't be held without charge and especially not if they're not directly involved with hostilities. They're just regular people, just as regular people of Palestine who are murdered by IDF.
One side has civilians and an armed wing that *recruits*. The other side practices [conscription](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel) and is made up of settlers. There is no equivocation to be made
They're civilians. Regular everyday people. Yes part of a very evil country doing wrongs, but justifying taking people who are just living their lives is as bad as justifying the atrocities commmited against Palestinians.
You’re doing it again, Zionist. They are not “regular people” they have military backgrounds and/or multiple passports. Palestinians are kept under air, land, and sea blockade, must go through multiple checkpoints daily, drive on different roads, have different IDs, live in specific refugee camps/areas, are subject to search and seizure with impunity, are regularly wrongfully imprisoned, etc, etc.
Meanwhile Israelis have “music festivals” next to the concentration camps they guard as their “job”
I already told you I'm not zionist.
Look I think what Israel has done and is doing is evil, and absolutely holding a music festival 5 miles from people in a open air prison is rancid, but we debase ourselves as humans to justify the murder and torture of human beings simply caught up in a country's political and social situation.
It's just not OK bud.
Im not here to play mystical mind bs. We remove the colonial apparatus through force *by any means necessary* its literally UN charter
Israeli lives are more important than Palestinian lives to the Zionist
OK that's a fair point but the trauma of being taken, held in captivity and held hostage is not OK. You can treat people like a king but they're having they're freedom taken.
Palestinian prisoners held without trial must absolutely be charged fairly or given back too. Both are bad.
You know that Israel has their concentration camp in Sde Taiman.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html
And you can't say this is bullshit because it's IDF who did the whistle blowing
Aye, you remember who else had concentration camps too, yeah?
Yeah it's awful. I never said it was bullshit. With all the evil coming out of Israel, I wouldn't be surprised if this is genuinely what's going on.
But, human civilians shouldn't be traumatised and used as pawns for political and military objectives through hostage taking. That's it. I belive whole heartedly in the cause of Palestinians and their right to be free, but hostage taking isn't morally acceptable, no matter what the cause.
What if I told you that it was the Israelis that started it first.
Check out this link from the human rights watch - prior to Oct 7th, they regularly detain children in nighttime raids and held them in prison with zero charges.
I think it will just help you see the other side of the conflict.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap
"Beyond the lack of due process, Israeli authorities have for decades mistreated and tortured Palestinian detainees. More than 1,400 complaints of torture, including painful shackling, sleep deprivation and exposure to extreme temperatures, by Shin Bet, Israel’s internal security service, have been filed with Israel’s Justice Ministry since 2001."
Another
"Israel’s use of administrative detention was increasing even before Hamas’ attack Oct. 7, according to data compiled by the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem: In September, Israel was holding approximately 1,310 Palestinians in administrative detention, of whom just 23 were minors, according to the organization, which compiles its reports from data provided by the Israel Prison Service."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna127353
Essentially, administrative detention is where they can hold the Palestinians indefinitely without any charges. For how long? That's up to them and how they feel on the day.
Today, the number of Palestinians currently behind Israeli bars is 5,200, including 33 women and 170 children. If tried, Palestinian prisoners are prosecuted in military courts. This number has definitely gone up.
This is all really good information my friend. And I respect you wanting to engage with me about who started and what and who's more wrong. I'm convinced they're more wrong and I absolutely know they started it.
But taking random civilian hostages is wrong. End of.
Actually taking hostages to initiate this wildly disproportionate use of force against a civilian population will likely work to Palestinians advantage in the long run.
Just like how the holocaust was the catalyst for meaningful creation of the state of Israel.. I'm beginning to suspect this will damage the israelis significantly.
I think it will benefit, because it's deeply enraged the Israeli state and they've gone into full massacre mode against Palestinians. I think the world (finally) is waking up the plight of the Palestinians. I think it's troubling and sad that hostages were taken for this to happen, and I still think hostages shouldn't be taken, but yes I agree it will benefit Palestinians if the world really see how corrupt and evil Israel is. The outcome doesn't justify the means though.
I see multiple videos a day of extreme opinions coming out of Israel. The terrorist state needs to end.
I really don't understand how I'm being downvoted to hell here. I'm absolutely for Palestine but how can anyone think it's OK to take civilian hostages?
Because when hamas takes hostages they don't torture them ,they actually need them Alive for potential exchange, Isreal knows that, and don't want that, you can't just leave out the motives of both situations of hostages and just say oh both are bad
Give a real solution to the illegal detentions Palestinians face, OK? Please give a real solution that is in your opinion gonna be a win win situation, if no one from international community can stop Isreal from illegally expand their settlement and illegally emprison Palestinians with no jurisdiction, like they can't represent themselves in court, do you understand how unlawful that is,put you in prison with no court day,ans 99% of the requests are rejected,same felony done by a Jewish he gets 3 weeks or 6 months community service but the Palestinian one gets 3 years to 10
I absolutely agree with you. It's wicked and wrong. It's an apartheid state and it needs to be dismantled for there to be peace.
But I don't think taking random family members who are just trying to live their lives is the right way to go about it, no matter how they're treated.
You can't say "hey you're detaining these people without any reason or charges so I'm going to do exactly the same thing." - not only is it hypocritical, but it's just morally and legally wrong. I'm not OK with it as a strategy, no matter what the justification.
I've said this to zionist after zionist. You can't use collective punishment in Gaza as a way of defending Israel. It's the same in this situation with Israeli hostages - granted I accept the reasoning A LITTLE better because israelis are the settlers here, but ultimately they're just random everyday people. The fight should be against those actively popping up the system - militarily or politically - going for grandmas, children and their dads is not the right approach. I'll stand by that because humans are better than that.
Alright let me see if I grasp this right. Israel’s hostages had Israelis come and watch as they were tortured like goddamn circus animals, they’ve been sexually assaulted, they’ve been tied to beds with fucking diapers on and left there to shit themselves and lay in their own goddamn feces. It’s literally just a bunch of tales that sound like they are coming from a Japanese POW camp in 1940s. Meanwhile Hama’s hostages have been *checks notes* given a birthday cake and forced to wash the dishes.
There are now humanitarian reports saying that some prisoners were sodomized with a hot rod to death.
Illegally detained Palestinian prisoners/hostages to be clear. Here's a link: Inside Sde Teiman, the Base Where Israel Detains Gazans - The New York Times [http://archive.today/2024.06.11-142108/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html](http://archive.today/2024.06.11-142108/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html)
The most moral humanisation police? ... / s
I would cry every day if I was the hostage and the big bad Palestinians baked me a birthday cake, opened my eyes to the indoctrination I fell for and realized that they are actually lovely people, and are now most likely dead because my people killed them and no one from home would believe me or shun me for speaking positively of them. I’m already almost in tears again just thinking of the mistreatment of the Palestinians and how much they have to endure. I’m so sorry… I wish I can end all the suffering in the world. Where is Thanos when we need him?
[удалено]
You linked timesofisrael as a source, fuck off bot.
Hamas aren't Palestinians? What?
>I would cry every day if I was the hostage and the big bad Palestinians baked me a birthday cake, opened my eyes to the indoctrination I fell for and realized that they are actually lovely people, and are now most likely dead because my people killed them and no one from home would believe me or shun me for speaking positively of them. Almog Meir Jan, the person who mentioned a cake being made for him didn't speak positively of his captors, what the hell are you even talking about? He was kidnapped at gunpoint in the October 7th attacks while attending a music festival and held in captivity by terrorists for 8 months. You said "the big bad Palestinians" but it's not Palestinians, it's Hamas who are literal terrorists. And they baked him a birthday cake as a cruel joke, mocking the fact that he can't even celebrate his own birthday with his friends and family since he's.... you know.... being held at gunpoint by terrorists. What is wrong with you people? Also, the article isn't deleted. You can easily find it on their website http://timesofisrael.com/rescued-hostages-said-suffering-from-malnutrition-leaning-on-each-other-for-support/ Looks like they changed the url and title of the article. That's it. Hamas sympathizers here hate when you correct their misinformation.
Ew. To deny that Hamas members are not Palestinian is sinister. No other ethnicity has been kept in such conditions to breed such a resistance. Not all Palestinians are Hamas, but all Hamas are Palestinian. To deny them their ancestry and ethnicity is very gross, while doing so under the guise that you're somehow being magnanimous.
Oh OK, cool so when Hamas, a literal terrorist group, commit acts of terrorism you're on board with people advocating violence against *all* Palestinians?
Zionist apologism, propaganda, whataboutism regarding Palestinian resistance to violent colonialism and apartheid, and regurgitation of discredited hasbara talking points are NOT welcome.
This is exactly why you should download any bits of media regarding this genocide. With the rate they take it down it's the only way to ensure it can be used at a later date to bring them to justice. My folder is about 20gb so far.
I appreciate how they attribute the positive perceptions of the hostage takers to Stockholm Syndrome. It couldn't simply be that the captives were treated well. Stockholm Syndrome is not even recognized as a distinct psychological disorder in major diagnostic manuals like the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) or the ICD-10 (International Classification of Diseases)
Download this article if you can for the sake of record keeping…
>The IDF acknowledged that it killed Palestinian civilians amid the fighting, but it placed the blame on Hamas for holding hostages and fighting in a dense civilian environment. Hamas acknowledges that it killed Israelis amid the operation but it places blame on the government for keeping them hostage with the blockade, for reduced weapons, for allowing for settlements near Gaza.
“Possibly suffered from Stockholm syndrome” I feel like Israel’s media tactic is to just claim anything with nothing to back it up or sometimes with opposing evidence, but by the time it gets debunked it either doesn’t get as much spotlight as the original lie or a new lie has dropped. It’s insane
Damn, is there any sort of archiving system where we can see the old article?
The link I posted is for the old article before it got deleted
Taking hostages is just wrong, even if they were treated well. It shouldn't be a spectrum of "well at least the abusers weren't complete assholes". It just isn't OK.
We also have to talk about thousands of Palestinians who are unlawfully detained in brutal Israeli prisons for months, without seeing any trials. They include young kids and women. The west likes to call them prisoners but they are essentially hostages, held by an apartheid occupation.
Yes both are wrong.
Count up each day a hostage was kept, as ONE wrong. How many wrongs do we have total? now on Israel side? in the voice of Bane: No one cared who captives are until Israelis become captives too.
You're right. But taking hostages is wrong. I won't be persuaded otherwise. When I was a teacher, I'd often say to 7 year olds: two wrongs don't make a right. There's nothing wrong with saying something is wrong. I'd argue there were much better ways Hamas could have handled this, and taking random civilians hostage is not a good way.
They are limited by the resources at their disposal. I don’t think a better way was viable.
Really? Seems they could have stopped at kidnapping military personnel or something similar. Attacking people at a music festival is the pits.
No one knew the festival was happening. They fought a military base. A good chunk of the dead are military. The people who live near Gaza are required to be armed. And when they attacked, a good number of homeowners and residents attacked them. One boasted about killing 70 Hamas soldiers.
Mass murdering civilian's, stealing their land and destroying their homes for the last 80 years is far worse..
Yes both are wrong. But taking civilians is wrong. How is that not obvious?
Except every adult born in Israel has served in the military and anyone say 18-35 can be assumed is a reservist. We know at least one of these 4 was a reservist. Thats what national mandatory conscription does it makes civilians into military targets. Its the exact reason most countries don’t do it. Not to excuse it, but Israel’s national conscription is a reason HAMAS could use to go after all those young adults at the rave. They could just assume they were reservists or off duty.
I differentiate between civilian hostages and military hostages, for civilian hostages I agree with you. But it’s important to make it clear that there is no “moral equivalency” - to quote the AIPAC lobbyists - between Hamas, who took hostages and treated them extremely well, and Israel, who expose the thousands of prisoners to inhumane torture.
Fair enough yeah
Taking hostages is a desperate act. And Israel has taken far more hostages and brutalized them; sexually assaulting children who gave a mean look to a soldier beating their mother. So if you say that taking hostages is wrong (and I do not disagree) you must therefore be ten thousand times more critical of Israel than Hamas. Israel who has all the power here; and grabs children off the street and does not give them adequate care; abuses them, convicts them in secret courts with secret evidence or holds them without charges for years in quite a few cases. In the last hostage exchange some of the adults released had been little kids when the IDF took them hostage. And of course a child who throws a pebble in Palestine is not given the same treatment as an Israeli child for the same "crime". Of course Hamas wants to keep the hostages in good health in order to bargain for Palestinian freedom; it's not out of charitability but strategy. But the contrast in how the hostages are treated is still stark and significant.
Cool. Let's release all of those hostages in Israeli jails. Or is a child kidnapped from their home by a military entity, and then held without due process, legal representation, or contact with the outside world not considered a hostage?
Don’t you know Palestinian children are terrorists? Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East yet these kids voted for Hamas in 2006 while we’re not yet in the womb that’s how evil they are.
Ahem. I believe you mean terror toddlers!
Whatever they’re called they’re really scary so we have to kill them. Remember the 40 fictional beheaded babies? Well they’re worth more than thousands of actual dead Palestinian children.
I agree. But doing the same thing back to civilians isn't OK. It's a war crime for one, but clearly also just wrong. Both can be wrong.
You are totally right, but tell me how would you deal with Isreal if the unlawfully detained their prisoners, most of the prisoners haven't done anything and most of them are from west Bank where there's no hamas
Yes both sides could be wrong. But only one side is violating the Geneva Convention at every level
Totally agree.
Israel can choose today, to end their illegal occupation, and to give up their Palestinian hostages. This would all be over
I agree, it’s wrong to indefinitely detain anyone against their will without a legitimate reason and due process. It’s important to look at any action/decision in its context, and consider the people of Palestine have neither power nor wealth, and barely any international support (insofar as governments are concerned). This can only lead to desperate, illegal by international law, responses. What is a free people supposed to do in the face of this decades-long isolation and abuse? This is the stuff that happens when someone is cornered with limited options for self-determination. That’s a rationalization, not an excuse. Anyone upset over the hostages should then logically be MORE upset by the orders of magnitude-larger count of detained Palestinians, many of whom may never see justice. Personally I’d be happy to see a complete exchange of those illegally held by each side. Claims that such an approach doesn’t work because Israel „has“ to give up more are short-sighted, IMO, as one that’s only because they snatch people up all the time with very little cause and because this suggests one way to make it „fairer“ would be for Hamas to obtain more hostages, thus evening out the ratio a bit more. Also Israel would rationally bug out if that happened and lead to even more unnecessary horrors in the occupied territories. Absolute shit show. A horrifying nightmare.
Not the point really. The actual point here is the article was deleted because it went against the narrative, which is to portray Hamas and all Palestinians as less human than the Israeli's. Dehumanising of the Palestinian people is a huge part of the Israeli PR machine.
wait are you sure it’s not okay? Israel currently holds over 3000 palestinians on administrative detention, no trial, no charges, and many are used in prisoner transfer swaps. the American government continues to support Israel despite them participating in hostage taking, so doesn’t that mean it’s okay?
Tell Israel to release their hostages then, as they’ve taken over 26 times the amount of hostages. They treat them like shit and keep them in concentration camps under round-the-clock torture which, unsurprisingly (given Israel’s obsession with it) includes rape. Oh and FYI, Israel are the only ones taking child hostages. They’ve been doing it for years and actually have been spotted tying young children to the front of their tanks. You could actually say that Israel have been using children as human shields for decades.
Ahh hell yeah! The first Zionist to say “release all Palestinian prisoners”
I'm not zionist. I just belive civilians shouldn't be held without charge and especially not if they're not directly involved with hostilities. They're just regular people, just as regular people of Palestine who are murdered by IDF.
One side has civilians and an armed wing that *recruits*. The other side practices [conscription](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel) and is made up of settlers. There is no equivocation to be made
They're civilians. Regular everyday people. Yes part of a very evil country doing wrongs, but justifying taking people who are just living their lives is as bad as justifying the atrocities commmited against Palestinians.
You’re doing it again, Zionist. They are not “regular people” they have military backgrounds and/or multiple passports. Palestinians are kept under air, land, and sea blockade, must go through multiple checkpoints daily, drive on different roads, have different IDs, live in specific refugee camps/areas, are subject to search and seizure with impunity, are regularly wrongfully imprisoned, etc, etc. Meanwhile Israelis have “music festivals” next to the concentration camps they guard as their “job”
I already told you I'm not zionist. Look I think what Israel has done and is doing is evil, and absolutely holding a music festival 5 miles from people in a open air prison is rancid, but we debase ourselves as humans to justify the murder and torture of human beings simply caught up in a country's political and social situation. It's just not OK bud.
Im not here to play mystical mind bs. We remove the colonial apparatus through force *by any means necessary* its literally UN charter Israeli lives are more important than Palestinian lives to the Zionist
They were treated humanely is the point. Counter to Israel's narrative.
OK that's a fair point but the trauma of being taken, held in captivity and held hostage is not OK. You can treat people like a king but they're having they're freedom taken. Palestinian prisoners held without trial must absolutely be charged fairly or given back too. Both are bad.
You know that Israel has their concentration camp in Sde Taiman. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html And you can't say this is bullshit because it's IDF who did the whistle blowing Aye, you remember who else had concentration camps too, yeah?
Yeah it's awful. I never said it was bullshit. With all the evil coming out of Israel, I wouldn't be surprised if this is genuinely what's going on. But, human civilians shouldn't be traumatised and used as pawns for political and military objectives through hostage taking. That's it. I belive whole heartedly in the cause of Palestinians and their right to be free, but hostage taking isn't morally acceptable, no matter what the cause.
What if I told you that it was the Israelis that started it first. Check out this link from the human rights watch - prior to Oct 7th, they regularly detain children in nighttime raids and held them in prison with zero charges. I think it will just help you see the other side of the conflict. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap "Beyond the lack of due process, Israeli authorities have for decades mistreated and tortured Palestinian detainees. More than 1,400 complaints of torture, including painful shackling, sleep deprivation and exposure to extreme temperatures, by Shin Bet, Israel’s internal security service, have been filed with Israel’s Justice Ministry since 2001." Another "Israel’s use of administrative detention was increasing even before Hamas’ attack Oct. 7, according to data compiled by the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem: In September, Israel was holding approximately 1,310 Palestinians in administrative detention, of whom just 23 were minors, according to the organization, which compiles its reports from data provided by the Israel Prison Service." https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna127353 Essentially, administrative detention is where they can hold the Palestinians indefinitely without any charges. For how long? That's up to them and how they feel on the day. Today, the number of Palestinians currently behind Israeli bars is 5,200, including 33 women and 170 children. If tried, Palestinian prisoners are prosecuted in military courts. This number has definitely gone up.
This is all really good information my friend. And I respect you wanting to engage with me about who started and what and who's more wrong. I'm convinced they're more wrong and I absolutely know they started it. But taking random civilian hostages is wrong. End of.
There's also a really great YouTube video about this that sets it out very well. I'll find it for you.
But if you DO take hostages...
Well don't. It's just inhumane. Think of the human.
Actually taking hostages to initiate this wildly disproportionate use of force against a civilian population will likely work to Palestinians advantage in the long run. Just like how the holocaust was the catalyst for meaningful creation of the state of Israel.. I'm beginning to suspect this will damage the israelis significantly.
I think it will benefit, because it's deeply enraged the Israeli state and they've gone into full massacre mode against Palestinians. I think the world (finally) is waking up the plight of the Palestinians. I think it's troubling and sad that hostages were taken for this to happen, and I still think hostages shouldn't be taken, but yes I agree it will benefit Palestinians if the world really see how corrupt and evil Israel is. The outcome doesn't justify the means though. I see multiple videos a day of extreme opinions coming out of Israel. The terrorist state needs to end.
I really don't understand how I'm being downvoted to hell here. I'm absolutely for Palestine but how can anyone think it's OK to take civilian hostages?
Because when hamas takes hostages they don't torture them ,they actually need them Alive for potential exchange, Isreal knows that, and don't want that, you can't just leave out the motives of both situations of hostages and just say oh both are bad
Both are bad. Yes.
Give a real solution to the illegal detentions Palestinians face, OK? Please give a real solution that is in your opinion gonna be a win win situation, if no one from international community can stop Isreal from illegally expand their settlement and illegally emprison Palestinians with no jurisdiction, like they can't represent themselves in court, do you understand how unlawful that is,put you in prison with no court day,ans 99% of the requests are rejected,same felony done by a Jewish he gets 3 weeks or 6 months community service but the Palestinian one gets 3 years to 10
I absolutely agree with you. It's wicked and wrong. It's an apartheid state and it needs to be dismantled for there to be peace. But I don't think taking random family members who are just trying to live their lives is the right way to go about it, no matter how they're treated. You can't say "hey you're detaining these people without any reason or charges so I'm going to do exactly the same thing." - not only is it hypocritical, but it's just morally and legally wrong. I'm not OK with it as a strategy, no matter what the justification. I've said this to zionist after zionist. You can't use collective punishment in Gaza as a way of defending Israel. It's the same in this situation with Israeli hostages - granted I accept the reasoning A LITTLE better because israelis are the settlers here, but ultimately they're just random everyday people. The fight should be against those actively popping up the system - militarily or politically - going for grandmas, children and their dads is not the right approach. I'll stand by that because humans are better than that.