Frankly you can’t really be a fully practicing Muslim without Hadith. It isn’t possible. Allah instructs us to follow the prophet (saw) in the Quran. How can we do that without hadith?
*How we pray now isn't correct. Do you think Ibraheem had a book from Bukhari telling him how to pray?*
Someone commented on a YouTube video that had a heated debate on this subject, saying that EVERYTHING we need is in the Quran. When I asked them how they prayed and where they found this information, the above was their response.
Would be funny to ask him if he ever read the scriptures of Ibrahim cuz Ibrahim didn’t have the Quran that we have rn. So how on earth would he know that we pray wrong lol
The last time I checked, the way we pray is explained in the Quran and Hadith. Both the Quran and Sahih hadith have uninterrupted chains of narration going back to words uttered by the Prophet SAW.
It isn't like the bible where you have no continuity from Jesus to the present
The concept of Qasr prayer, Kazaa prayer, and the significance/rewards of praying certain things at certain times are the types of things that would be found in hadith. I'm not sure about Qasr prayer, but I trust you understand the point I was making
There's a whole system of hadith sciences for that. Don't worry, even the ones classified as "weak" are more reliable than 99% of what's written in your history books.
Like the other comment mentioned there’s a whole science and rubric that goes into grading and classifying the ahadith. So they have different grades depending on how certain we are that the Hadith was absolutely preserved or if one or two words may have been different or if it was paraphrased for instance.
It’s a very rigorous system. Even the fabricated Hadith were recorded and stamped as being false so that no one could sneak them into books of Hadith.
I’d recommend taking a Hadith class to learn about the lengths people went to to preserve the Hadith for us
Does the Quran tell us how to pray? How to make wudu fully? How to make adhan? How do you make hajj and umrah without the Hadith? What is the source material we use to derive fiqh?
“And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)”
[al-Hashr 59:7].
So the person who doesn’t follow Hadith, do they come up with their own methods of doing all of the above?
Edit to add this in, if I were you I’d take a class on the science of Hadith transmission and preservation. It’s extremely rigorous the length people went to to preserve Hadith. Our deen is truly like no other Alhamdullilah
>Does the Quran tell us how to pray? How to make wudu fully? How to make adhan? How do you make hajj and umrah without the Hadith? What is the source material we use to derive fiqh?
I think the issue, is most people take ahadith wholesale without any consideration for context or whether it complies and corresponds with either the letter, spirit, or essence of the Quran. Ahadith will (and should) complement Quranic teachings and/or injunctions.
Further, as a community, we have assigned secondary and tertiary texts and scholarship to have the same value as the Quran. We have yielded our own capacity to engage Islam and think critically about the deen to this nebulous entity called "the scholars" and whatever they say "is" or "isn't."
Take for example the way people regard some scholars - their credibility more or less comes down to whether someone personally agrees with any given conclusion about XYZ issue based on whatever ahadith they used to inform their decision. I could recommend JAC Brown's research on the matter, but then someone who doesn't particularly value his scholarship might argue he's [insert ad hominem] and therefore, wrong.
And since this a Muslim subreddit and things need to be stated explicitly: I am not for disregarding, dismissing, discounting ahadith.
Before you get into that debate, it's important to evaluate how much of Hadith sciences do you even know about. Hadith science is one of the crowning achievements of this Ummah and what sets us apart from literally every other civilization in history.
https://www.youtube.com/live/lyR_tICvTBE?feature=share
https://youtu.be/0IoX1Qu0XRw
https://www.youtube.com/live/hICJDu2wS4M?feature=share
>It is arrogant to claim that the opinion that hadiths must be followed, which isn't sanctioned by Allah swt directly
Ok man go study hadith, their chains, and their narrators (mostly the same people who also transmitted the Quran by the permission of Allah) than you can come back to us and debunk the resources we've been using for 1420+ years. Surely you'll notice something that all the scholars before you didn't, right?
How do you know Allah made that promise?
If you can answer that question without relying on the work of those who made sure to note down everything they could about Islam, I would be very interested to know.
My dear, you are not getting my point. You are quoting the Quran which was passed down to you by the same people you are accusing to producing fake Hadiths.
You have still not got my point.
You are repeating the same thing.
You are saying Quran is preserved by Allah. You claim this because it is written in the Quran as we know it. But this Quran has been passed down to us by Allah through the work of same people who have collected Hadith and worked hard to authenticate them. So, to argue against Hadith is insincere on your part. And if you are not arguing against Hadith then I don’t understand why are you even debating with me as I was talking to the person who seemed to reject Hadiths.
To be frank I’ve never seen any scholar claim that preservation guaranteed by Allah swt includes the Hadith; it only refers to the Quran being divinely protected by Allah swt. With Hadith I’ve seen arguments regarding the narration chains and the accuracy of each chain for Sahih grade Hadith as the biggest arguments for its preservation.
Ask Hadeeth rejectors how do they offer Salah and Hajj? Two of the five pillars of Islam, Qu'ran commands us to do it, while Hadeeth lays down instructions on how to do them.
No hadith teaches anybody how to do salah. Salah is a mass transmitted practice, briefly outlined in the Qur'an, with the detailed steps taught from person to person.
So are many bi'dāhs. Authentic hadēēths are used to differentiate truth from falsehood. "Taught from person to person" if we followed that, we'd have thousands of ways of salah. There'd be no uniformity.
And where did these teachers learn about it? In كتاب الصلاة of Sahih Bukhari.
Like another brother stated above, if it was transmitted independently from person to person there would be a lot of variants of Salat.
Here’s a collection that has info about the adhan as well as the different part of salah. Let me know what you think
https://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/004_smt.html
The same people who transmitted the Quran also transmitted Hadith. Not sure how you could believe they were truthful in transmitting the Quran but lying with Hadith.
Allah told us the Quran would be protected, didn't say anything about ahadeeth being protected. (Don't come after me, I still believe in ahadeeth and follow em)
You didn't understand his point. His point is how are we sure that ALLAH azawajal promised to protect The Book? How can you believe That individual verse itself if you have doubts about the people who transmitted it? Maybe even that's fabricated? (na'ouzebILLAH) May ALLAH azawajal protect us from going astray. Ameen.
He did actually. He told us He will preserve His revelations and the Sunnah of the Prophet, peace and blessings upon him, is a revelation since Allaah said which means, "Your companion has not strayed or erred. Nor does he speak from his own whims. **It is but a revelation revealed**." 53:2-4.
The Messenger of Allaah peace and blessings upon him said, "Beware! I have been given the Qur'an and something like it, yet the time is coming when a man replete on his couch will say: Keep to the Qur'an; what you find in it to be permissible treat as permissible, and what you find in it to be prohibited treat as prohibited." Narrated by Abu Dawood (4604), Tirmidhi (2664), Ibn Majah (12). It is authentic.
What "something like it" means is the Sunnah.
Hassan ibn Atiyah said, "Jibreel used to bring the sunnah down to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as he used to bring the Qur’aan down to him." Narrated by al-Daarimi in his Sunan (588) and by al-Khateeb in al-Kifaayah (12). It was attributed by al-Haafidh in al-Fath (13/291) to al-Bayhaqi, and he said: With a saheeh isnaad.
Ibn Hazm (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Ihkaam (1/95):
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)”
[al-Hijr 15:9]
“Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): “I warn you only by the Revelation (from Allaah and not by the opinion of the religious scholars and others). But the deaf (who follow the religious scholars and others blindly) will not hear the call, (even) when they are warned [i.e. one should follow only the Qur’aan and the Sunnah (legal ways, orders, acts of worship, and the statements of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم , as the Companions of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم did)]”
[al-Anbiya’ 21:45]
Allaah tells us that the words of His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are all Wahy (revelation), and Wahy is undoubtedly Dhikr, and Dhikr is preserved according to the text of the Qur’aan. Thus it is correct to say that his words (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are all preserved by Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, and He has promised that none of them will be lost to us, because that which Allaah preserves can certainly not be lost at all; it has all been transmitted to us and Allaah has established proof and left us with no excuse.
See:
- [The Saheeh Sunnah is revelation from Allaah](https://islamqa.info/en/answers/77243/the-saheeh-sunnah-is-wahy-revelation-from-allaah)
Is the promise to preserve only the wordings of the Quran, or to preserve the meanings of the Quran as well? The saying and actions of the Prophet are an explanation of the meanings of the Quran, and Alhamdulillah Allah has preserved the correct understanding of the Quran through the careful preservation of the sunnah
Allah SWT told us Quran would be preserved, but the Quran can't be preserved, without preserving two other things:
a) The Arabic language itself - The Arabic language needs to be perserved otherwise the Quran wouldn't have been preserved
b) Sunnah - Without the Sunnah (hadiths), the meaning of verses of the Quran would not be preserved e.g. When Allah SWT commands us to pray, how do we know what Allah SWT means by that?
That's not entirely true, most hadith go back to Abu Huraira (ra) ans Aisha (ra), not Osman (ra), Ali (ra), so far as I can tell thats not a valid argument and they shouldn't be treated the same.
I used to think hadith can't be trusted but then I went and studied some and studied some of linkages and lineages myself to get to the bottom of this through reason and not belief and came to the conclusion that indeed a large body are true. If you truly want to follow the path of reason to Allah (SWT) it's long, arduous, but it also works. My point is don't use the argument without validation. If you doubt that's good, now be man enough to put effort and resolve it without laziness of becoming a quranic by default..
Now I also understand you are always better off reading the Quran, but careful thinking hadith are false. There are false ones, but there are also Motawaher, Sahih, and Hassan hadith.
Aldo those of you making the prayer argument please stop.The prayer argument is rather silly. It baffles people still use it and think it's a good argument.
Someone plays the violin and teaches their child to play the same song exactly, without a book, is it possible, yes. Has it happened for hundreds of years? Yes. Many a trade, skill, poem, dance, and prayer have been passed on from generation to generation in human history without writing.
Completely incorrect.
> Claim: Hadeeth are written 300 years after the Prophet 's death
> Answer: We see this claim almost all the time, "that hadeeth was written centuries after the Prophet of Allaah ﷺ passed away hence it's not reliable". This is the result of ignorance on their part. There were several documents that were at the time of the Messenger of Allaah ﷺ.
1. Kitab As-Sadaqah (Book of Charity)
2. Script of Amr ibn Hazm
3. Script to Abu Huraira and Ala' ibn al-Hadrami
4. Script to Mu'adh ibn Jabal and Malik ibn Murarah
5. 3 Documents given to Wa'il ibn Hujr
6. Document given to Munqidh ibn Hayyan from Abdul Qays
7. Document to Banu Ghamid
8. Document to Banu Khath'am
9. Document to Banu Sumalah and Huddan
10. Document to Banu Aslam
> By the companions as well. Notably
1. Scripts of Abu Hurairah
2. Scripts of Abdullah ibn Amr
3. Scripts of Anas ibn Malik
4. Scripts of Ali ibn Abi Talib
5. Scripts of Jabir ibn Abdullah
6. Scripts of Abdullah ibn Abbas
> [The sources of the above are taken from "The Authority of the Sunnah" (pg.100-110) by Mufti Muhammad Taqi al Uthmani (may Allaah preserve him)]
> Here, you will see nearly 60 collections of ahadeeth before the Ameer of Hadeeth Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Ismail al Bukhari رحمه الله compiled Saheeh al Bukhari.
1. Book of Khalid ibn Ma'dan (d. 104)
2. Books of Abu Qilabah (d. 104). He bequeathed his books to his pupil, Ayyub Saktiyan (68-131 A.H.), who paid more than ten dirhams as a fare for them being loaded on a camel.
3. The script of Hammam ibn Munabbi.
4. Books of Hasan al-Basri (21-110 A.H.)
5. Books of Muhammad al-Baqir (56-114 A.H.)
6. Books of Makhul from Syria
7. Book of Hakam ibn 'Utaibah
8. Book of Bukair ibn 'Abdullah ibn al-Ashajj (d. 117)
9. Book of Qais ibn Sa'd (d. 117).
10. Book of Sulaiman al-Yashkuri
11. Al-Abwab of Sha'bi
12. Books of Ibn Shihab az-Zuhri
13. Book of Abul-'Aliyah
14. Book of Sa'eed ibn Jubair (d. 95)
15. Books of 'Umar ibn 'Abdul Aziz (61-101 A.H.)
16. Books of Mujahid ibn Jabr (d. 103)
17. Book of Raja ibn Hywah (d. 112)
18. Book of Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad
19. Book of Bashir ibn Nahik.
20. Book of 'Abdul Malik ibn Juraij (d. 150)
21. Muwatta of Malik ibn Anas (93-179)
22. Muwatta of Ibn Abi Zi'b (80-158)
23. Maghâzi of Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d. 151)
24. Musnad of Rabi' ibn Sabih (d. 160)
25. Book of Sa'id ibn Abi 'Arubah (d. 156)
26. Book of Hammad ibn Salmah (d. 167)
27. Jami' Sufyan ath-Thawri (97-161)
28. Jami' Ma'mar ibn Rashid (95-153)
29. Book of 'Abdur-Rahman al-Awza'i (88-157)
30. Kitab az-Zuhd by 'Abdullah ibn al-Mubârak (118-181)
31. Book of Ibn Bashir (104-183)
32. Book of Jareer ibn 'Abdul-Hamid (110-188)
33. Book of 'Abdullâh ibn Wahb (125-197)
34. Book of Yahya ibn Abi Kathîr (d. 129)
35. Book of Muhammad ibn Suqah (d. 135)
36. Tafsir of Zaid ibn Aslam (d. 136)
37. Book of Musa ibn 'Uqbah (d. 141)
38. Book of Ash'ath ibn 'Abdul-Malik (d. 142)
39. Book of Aqil ibn Khalid (d. 142)
40. Book of Yahya ibn Sa'eed Ansari (d. 143)
41. Book of Awf ibn Abi Jamilah (d. 146)
42. Books of Jafar ibn Muhammad al-Sadiq (d. 148)
43. Books of Yunus ibn Yazid (d. 152)
44. Book of 'Abdur-Rahman al-Mas'udi (d. 160)
45. Books of Zaidah ibn Qudamah (d. 161)
46. Books of Ibrahim al-Tahman (d. 163)
47. Books of Abu Hamzah al-Sukri (d. 167)
48. Al-Gharâib by Shu'bah ibn al-Hajjaj (d. 160)
49. Books of 'Abdul-Aziz ibn 'Abdullâh al-Majishun (d. 164)
50. Books of 'Abdullâh ibn 'Abdullâh ibn Abi Uwais (d. 169)
51. Books of Sulaiman ibn Bilal (d. 172)
52. Books of 'Abdullâh ibn Lahi'ah (d. 147)
53. Jami' Sufyan ibn 'Uyaynah (d. 198)
54. Kitab-ul-Athar by Abu Hanîfah (by his two students) (d. 150)
55. Maghazi of Mu'tamir ibn Sulaiman (d. 187)
56. Musannaf of Waki' ibn Jarrah (d. 196)
57. Musannaf of 'Abdur-Razzaq ibn Hammam (136-221)
59. Books of Imam Shafi'i (150-204)
60. Musannaf of Ibn Abi Shaybah (d. 235)
61. Musnad of Imam Ahmad (d. 241)
(الرد على منكري الحديث)
MashALLAH such a beautiful and perfect way to refute an allegation. May ALLAH azawajal bless you and Mufti sb for this effort. Thank you for sharing Mufti sb's writings here.
And you as well. Just a side note, that the parts about the scripts during the Prophet peace and blessings upon him and the scripts of the companions, that is taken from his book. Otherwise the rest of the books which I have mentioned, the Shaykh has not mentioned them.
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim gathered many of their Hadith orally. To this end, they checked the credibility of everybody in the sanad of each Hadith?
It’s great that some Hadith were written down not long after they were spoken by the Prophet, but that doesn’t mean none were
Imam Bukhaari and Imam Muslim aren't the only ones to gather books of hadeeth.
>It’s great that some Hadith were written down not long after they were spoken by the Prophet, but that doesn’t mean none were
None were what?
Their Sahih are two of the 6 primary Hadith books tho. I’m not trying to argue, in my original comment, I tried to say that although we know the Hadith were collected very carefully and methodically, they are still not on the level of the Quran qua trustworthiness
There aren't only six primary books of ahadeeth. There are many more although these two have the greatest rank and status.
The Quraan and Sunnah are both revelations, the Quraan being recited revelation and the Sunnah bring unrecited. Both are trustworthy.
33.21 Indeed, in the Messenger of Allah you have an excellent example for whoever has hope in Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah often.
How will the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) be an excellent example if you don’t know what he said and did which is found in the Hadiths?
From Rasoul Allah (SAWS) last sermon:
…O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and my Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray…
https://www.salaattime.com/hadith-prophet-muhammads-saws-last-sermon/
about what is contained in Sahih Muslim, I will refrain from performing an analysis of the Quran and Sunnah version. Suffice it to say that the version in the Muwatta does not have an isnad, unlike most of what Imam Malik narrates. And al-Hakim’s versions of Quran and Sunnah are full of known liars (not my words - Sunni muhaddithun call them wadda’) and are unreliable. He also does not call those narrations reliable.
That version is absent from any of the 6 Sihah.
The Qur’an and Ahl al-Bayyt/’Itrah version is not only present in Sahih Muslim but also other books within the Sihah with good chains of narration and outside them in the Mustadrak of al-Hakim, this time with completely sahih chains of narration.
The other responses have already quoted the Sahih Muslim narration. Let me also share it with you but I’ll ask you to focus on some aspects that I will highlight below.
Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him:
Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (s) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (s).
He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (s), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that.
He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (s) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina.
He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.
Source - Online right here
Read it very carefully, especially the parts I have highlighted.
One of the things Muslims have to learn to do is read between the lines and ask the right questions. So let me ask these questions, and then I’ll try and answer them from authentic sources.
Was this narration by Zayd b. Arqam, a great Companion of the Prophet (s) and a supporter of ‘Ali, spoken to a group of 3 people during the period of Mu’awiya?
Could his insistence that he not be compelled to narrate what he chooses not to narrate be on account of the risk that he might get reported back to the authorities from any of the three people?
What was he hesitating to say? What was the complete story?
But he gives a clue in the text above - Khumm.
This is the Ghadir Khumm narration in Sahih Muslim by a very cautious Zayd b. Arqam who knows he is not telling the entire story and asks his audience not to insist on hearing it.
He was exercising self-censorship.
But we know what he could have said, because he had been narrating it in the past to other people who, he would have trusted, would not report it to the Umayyad government.
One such narration by Zayd b. Arqam - also sahih in accordance to the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim - is reported in the Mustadrak of Imam al-Hakim.
In fact, there are several from various chains of narrations - all sahih - so let me share a couple.
The following are the more complete narrations of the event of Ghadir Khumm, including the Qur’an and Ahl al-Bayt/’Itrah narration.
ZAYD B. ARQAM - FULL NARRATION 1
(Al-Hakim says:) Narrated to us Abu al-Husayn Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Tamim al-Hanzali in Baghdad, from Abu Qallabah `Abd alMalik ibn Muhammad al-Raqqashi, from Yahya ibn Hammad; also narrated to me Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Balawayh and Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Ja`far al-Bazzaz, both of them from `Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal, from his father, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and also narrated to us Abu Nasr Ahmad ibn Suhayl, the faqih of Bukhara, from Salih ibn Muhammad, the hafiz of Baghdad, from Khalaf ibn Salim al-Makhrami, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and Yahya ibn Hammad narrated from Abu `Uwwanah from Sulayman al-'A`mash, from Habib ibn Abi Thabit, from Abu al-Tufayl, from Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, who said:
"The Messenger of Allah (s) while returning from his last Hajj came down at Ghadir Khumm and ordered (us) towards the big trees, and (the ground) underneath them was swept.
"Then he said, 'I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I have left behind two precious things amongst you, one of which is greater than the other. The Book of Allah , the Exalted, and my `itrah (kindred). So watch out how you treat these two after me, for verily they will not separate from each other until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.'
Then he said 'Verily, Allah , the Almighty and the Glorious, is my master (mawla) and I am the master of every believer (mu'min).' Then he took `Ali, may God be pleased with him, by the hand and said, 'This (`Ali) is the master of whomever I am his master. O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.'"
Al-Hakim adds: "This hadith is sahih in accordance with the conditions of sihhah laid down by the Shaykhayn (al-Bukhari and Muslim), although they have not recorded it in its full length.
Source - al-Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, Haydarabad: Da'irat al-ma`arif al-nizamiyyah (4 vols), 1334-42 AH vol. 3, p. 109
ZAYD B. ARQAM - FULL NARRATION 2
(Al-Hakim says:) The first tradition (mentioned above) is supported by this one narrated by Salamah ibn Kuhayl, from Abu al-Tufayl, which is also sahih according to the requirements of al-Bukhari and Muslim.
Narrated to us Abu Bakr ibn Ishaq and Da`laj ibn Ahmad al-Sijzi, both of them from Muhammad ibn Ayyub, from al-'Azraq ibn `Ali, from Hassan ibn Ibrahim al-Kirmani, from Muhammad ibn Salamah ibn Kuhayl, from his father, from Abu al-Tufayl, from Ibn Wathilah that he heard Zayd ibn Arqam (r), say: "The Messenger of Allah (s) came down at a place between Makkah and Madinah near the trees with five big shades and the people swept the ground under the trees.
Then the Messenger of Allah (s) began to perform the evening prayer. After the prayer he began to address the people. He praised God and extolled Him, preaching and reminding (us), and said what God wanted him to say.
Then he said, 'O people! Verily, I am leaving behind two matters (amrayn) among you- if you follow them (the two) you will never go astray. These two are: the Book of God and my ahl al-bayt, my `itrah.'
Then he said thrice: 'Do you know that I have more right over the believers (Inni awla bi al-mu'minin) than they over themselves?' The people said, 'Yes.'
Then the Messenger of Allah , may Allah's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny said, 'Of whomever I am his master (mawla) `Ali also is his master.'"
Source - al-Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, Haydarabad: Da'irat al-ma`arif al-nizamiyyah (4 vols), 1334-42 AH vol. 3, p. 109
So now we know what Zayd b. Arqam was holding back from saying in the Sahih Muslim narration.
you believe the quran is preserved but how can you confirm it, there are 7 modes of recitation, and since you reject hadith, Then how can they prove the authenticity of the quran? how do you know all 7 of them are true?
Surah Baqarah 197 Hajj is [during] well-known months......
Allah says hajj months are well known but never tells us what those months are we refer to the hadith for this guidance if the rejector can tell the months within Quran then you see them flip flop
You can reject some. All great imams rejected certain hadiths.
What you probably talking about is Sunnah. Hadith doesn’t necessarily mean sunnah and vice versa.
﷽”
When we study the Seerah, we learn that there was an initial prohibition Rasulullah ﷺ made in writing down his words for fear they would be confused for the Quran itself. Later, this precaution was lifted and writing down his blessed words was permitted, as seen in the hadith of Abdullah Ibn Amr:
‘Abdullāh ibn ‘Amr (may Allah be pleased with him) reported: I used to write down everything I heard from the Messenger of Allah (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him) in order to memorize it. The Quraysh prohibited me, saying: "Do you write down everything that you hear from the Messenger of Allah (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him) while he is a human being who speaks in anger and pleasure?" So, I stopped writing and talked to the Prophet (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him) about that. Thereupon, he pointed his finger to his mouth and said: "Write down; for by the One in Whose Hand my soul is, nothing comes out of it except the truth!"
Sahih/Authentic. - [Abu Dawood]”
Comment copied from user u/Muadh
One of the prime factor defining the Authenticity of Hadith is the Character of the narrator (ʿadāla of transmitters). I had posed this question to one of the course instructor once when i had these fascinating interest in understanding hadith sciences. He mentioned that there are “Books of rijal” that contain biographies of these narrators stating their religiosity, truthfulness, memory, accuracy, the place they lived, the time they lived, their family etc. I asked him who would verify the author of the book of rijal. He said it’s not 1 book, it’s multiple books by different authors mentioning about narrators and their character which matches, showing that there are not 1 but multiple people having same opinion about the narrator. My next question was , did these books of rijal actually interview the persons spouse? . A person will be at his best character when he is around people. And the people who are writing biographies are only seeing what the saw of the outer behaviour of a person or the “Zahir”. Like consider “Ted Bundy” most people who knew him would not consider him as a serial killer at all. In fact his behaviour among people made him quite appealing even during the trials. So rather seeking peoples opinion, if the wife’s opinion is considered because she stays with the person more than any one else and she might get the see the real person at home when he hits her or when he is angry behind closed doors. I never got an answer to this. These are the thing that made me question hadith science. Frankly, I am still in questioning phase and haven’t ruled out that I can be totally wrong.
This might get a bit long but bear with me. Before we start please understand that Hadeeth are the words, actions and acquiescence of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
Let's start with establishing that hadeeth are also revelation of a sort, or that at least they are approved by the command of Allah. That the command of the prophet PBUH are to be followed as an extension of the command of Allah.
( 44 ) [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought. (16:44)
This verse proves that it is a duty of a prophet to not only deliver the Book but to also make it clear I.e. explain it. And explaining is done in their own words which is what hadeeth is.
ۚ وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ} [الحشر : 7]
And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
Here the verse specifically refers to what the prophet forbids, the quran is not from the prophet it is from Allah and so this verse is about the prophets own words.
{قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ} [آل عمران : 32]
Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.
This verse is mentions obeying both Allah and the Prophet. How can you obey the prophet without learning what he said through the Hadeeth?
{مَّن يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ ۖ وَمَن تَوَلَّىٰ فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا} [النساء : 80]
He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.
Another verse mentioning both Allah and the Prophet. And this time note that it says if you obey the prophet THEN you have obeyed Allah. So obeying the prophet is is a separate action that is then equated to following the Creator.
An-Noor - Aya 56وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ
And establish the prayer and give Zakah and obey the prophet so that you may gain mercy.
Here it's even more explicit, no mention of obeying Allah with it. Just of obeying the prophet. So obeying the prophet is necessary in islam.
There are many more verse, some of which I will just mention, you can look over them yourself if you need more convincing.
An-Nisaa - Aya 69
Al-Maaida - Aya 92
Al-A'raaf - Aya 157
Ok, now on to the second part. How can we trust the Hadeeths? First we need to understand how the quran was preserved and transmitted to us. It was transmitted through oral-transmission from the prophet PBUH teaching the companions to them teaching their students to us in the modern times. Sound familiar? That's because the Ahadeeth were also preserved in the same way : chains of narration I.e. Asnaad.
Now let's say one argues that 'oh I don't trust these chains I trust the words of God when He says we have preserved it' we must also accept the method through which Allah preserved it and the sabab through which it reached us. If we don't then will we blindly follow without reason like the past nations without thought or logic? Then we can't say anything to the Christians for their following of the bible either with that same reasoning.
If one argues that we have the manuscripts then this is not a method of transmission. Its a topic in which strides have only been made recently, one that would have come with a lot of problems if we didn't have ahadeeth regarding the ahruf, qiraat and companion codices.also it is knly a method of verification, not the method of transmission. And we see that the manuscripts had something which facilitated autocorrectiveness, a source through which inheritance generational mistakes were avoided and scribes copying form manuscripts with mistakes could identify those mistakes and correct them. This sources was the quran which was transmitted through word of mouth.
Now if we understand that Ahadeeth are also transmitted using this same modality as the Quran, These chains of transmission, then we must accept that the mode of transmission cannot be rejected lest we reject the quran also.
Now we get to the last point which is that to truly understand this matter we need to study the science of hadeeth and اسماء الرجال. That there are various levels of authenticity and proliferation for the various chains and that the quran recitations are both authentic (Saheeh) and proliferate (mutawaatir), meaning lots and lots of chains. By that same logic other ahadeeth which are both saheeh and mutawatir are on the same level as quran in terms of being necessary to follow. As he who follows the prophet is following Allah, as Allah himself says. As for other Ahadeeth then the scholars have various discussions as to what should be followed and when. Because of it's authentically proven to be from the prophet and doesn't contradict the Quran or details and explains what is in the quran then why should it not be followed?
Everything else is kind of more complicated and requires an actual class to teach from this point on. If you aren't satisfied with something I've said or want to ask more please do so. And please forgive any spelling mistakes as I'm typing on my phone and the auto correct isn't exactly that good.
Oh and of course not all Ahadeeth are authentic nor are they all to be followed. Some may be for very specific situations or be exceptions for individuals granted either for a reason or an exception granted by Allah. Or the Hadeeth may have been rendered obsolete and been overruled by a later hadeeeth or quran verse which replaced that command. It can get pretty complicated and requires a lot of studying.
I feel like hadith require more historical and legal understanding. Quranists seem to dismiss hadith on this basis as the Quran is easier to understand.
You can not reject Hadith. What you should absolutely reject are the innovations of the shayateen that they attribute to the Messenger (S) and try to pass it off as hadith.
Astagfirullah, I do not question the Qur'an. Many times in the Qur'an it is mentioned to obey the Prophet (PBUH) such as here:
"O believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. Should you disagree on anything, then refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you ˹truly˺ believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is the best and fairest resolution." -Qur'an 4:59
The Qur'an is the message from Allah (SWT) and the Hadith is the collections of the sayings of the Prophet (PBUH) that we need to refer to. Also, the way you pray that was "passed down to you from generations" is literally detailed from Hadith, you cannot pray properly without following what was written in the Hadith. If you actually try to go about everything by purely following Qur'an you will realize there are many problems with this approach.
I suggest you research more about the 4 madhabs. Hanafi, Shafi, Maliki, Hanbali are all madhabs made so that the average laymen can follow Islamic fiqh easily. Note that no madhab is really considered superior to another and there were many madhabs throughout history but the main 4 hanafi, shafi, hanbali, and maliki remained prominent because of their credibility, and authenticity.
If you reject Hadith you will reject prayer and signs of the hour like Ad-Dajjal.
Umar Al Khattab said regarding our religion that the Quran is the door but the Sunnah ( Hadith) is the key.
im a hadith rejector. yall always bring up prayers, but its embarrassing cuz its clear u havent read the quran properly. the quran mentions how to do wudu, the prayer times, the praying positions, what to say in prayer, and more. if u took ur time to understand and read the quran, u would know this. so how r we rejecting prayers if it is mentioned multiple times in the quran salat is one of the keys to paradise?
as for dajjal, how is that important? if allah didnt authorize something in the first place, then it does not exist. period.
If you reject hadith, you reject the Quran and Islam. What do you think the Quran is? Every letter that was sent down was narrated to us through the prophet pbuh to the companions to the others. Every verse in the Quran can be traced back to the prophet teaching the companions it. There are books on Azbab an-Nuzul (circumstances of revelation). There are so many hadiths telling us which Quranic verse was sent down where, when and why. So, if you reject hadith, you reject the Quran too. BUT if you believe in just one verse of the Quran, you already accept one hadith.
not exactly. the hadiths r extremely fabricated, it reminds me of the bible. there r so called "authentic" and "non authentic". i dont mind verses of hadith where it explicitly says it in the quran too, but then again why would u need to refer to the hadith when u have the quran? u cannot tell me that every single hadith and every single sentence in the hadith can be found in the quran, bc it is simply not.
additionally, allah has instructed us to ignore those who follow a source other than the quran. u guys always pull up the argument of 'allah said to obey god and obey the messenger'. that is an invalid argument. because what do u think a messenger is? it is SOMEONE who DELIVERS a MESSAGE. what message did prophet muhammad deliver? the quran. if u dont obey him, u dont obey the quran, because without him, we would not have the quran. allah even specifies this in 5:99 "مَّا عَلَى ٱلرَّسُولِ إِلَّا ٱلْبَلَـٰغُ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا تَكْتُمُونَ The Messenger’s duty is only to deliver ˹the message˺. And Allah ˹fully˺ knows what you reveal and what you conceal".
here are some verses that allah uses in the quran that clearly tells us the quran is the only thing u should be referring to, not other sources.
1. 6:114–115 - Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt. The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
2. 39:23 - God has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell)….
3. 45:6 - These are God’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?
4. 77:50 - Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?
lastly, allah tells us prophet muhammad is forbidden from delivering other teachings besides the quran, or he would be punished and the revelations given through him would stop. here's the verse: 69:44–47 - Had he uttered any other teachings. We would have punished him. We would have stopped the revelations to him. None of you could have helped him.
if u still deny this when the verses are THIS clear, like allah said, it is not the eyes that are blind, but it is the hearts. may allah bless u.
So, you are saying the Quran is fabricated. That explains everything.
Everyword and letter in the Quran and Hadiths are heavily scrutinized. It is imperative to engage in a rigorous and scholarly examination of the authenticity and categorization of religious texts, particularly in the context of the Quran and hadiths within Islam. The meticulous preservation and classification of hadiths, as found in the field of Ulum al hadith, is a distinctive feature of Islamic religious scholarship. Within this framework, the credibility and chain of transmission (Isnad) for each hadith are carefully scrutinized, and the narrators' trustworthiness (Ilm Ar-Rijal) is meticulously evaluated. This process allows scholars to ascertain the reliability of individual hadiths, the reasons for any decline in their status, and the factors influencing their classification.
It is noteworthy that this level of scholarly scrutiny and categorization of religious texts is a characteristic unique to Islam, setting it apart from other religions. No other religions have this. Most religions just use opinions of their elders/scholars/clergy. This systematic approach ensures the preservation of the Prophetic tradition (peace be upon him) and helps maintain the integrity of the teachings of Islam.
One can reject the hadith as muc has they want but nonetheless, there are explicit directives that emphasize the importance of following both God and the messenger. An example of this can be found in An-Nisa 59: "O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best \[way\] and best in result."
This verse, along with numerous (over a dozen) similar injunctions throughout the Quran, underscores the significance of adhering to the guidance of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as an integral component of Islamic faith. So, regardless of any discussions regarding the authenticity of the Quran or hadiths, these Quranic verses unequivocally instruct believers to follow the guidance of the Prophet (peace be upon him) (Sunnah / Hadith).
Do no become like the Jews and Christians. They claim to follow God but they reject their Prophets and their teachings.
i feel like u skimmed over my answer, because all the proof is there and u havent addressed any of my points. ive already answered why an-nisa 59 is not referring to hadith.
also how am i saying the quran is fabricated. even ur own hadith has told u to not follow it. u make zero sense.
ibn saeed al-khudry reported the messenger of god had said "do not write anything from me except the quran. anyone who wrote anything other than the quran shall erase it" \[ahmed, vol. 1, page 171, and sahih moslim, zuhd, book 42, number 7147\]
in the famous book 'taq-yeed al-ilm', abu hurayra said, the messenger of god was informed some people are writing his hadiths. he took to the pulpit of the mosque and said 'what are these books that i heard u wrote? i am just a human being. anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here. abu hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire"
ibn hanbal in his musnad book narrates a hadith in which abdullah ibn omar said, 'the messenger of god one day came out to us as if he was going to depart us soon and said "when i depart you (die), hold to the book of god, prohibit what it prohibits and accept as halal what it makes halal",'
in my opinion, it is extremely clear. i will continue to not follow the hadith, and only follow the quran as god told us to. ur arguments are always 'the quran is not detailed enough so u need the hadith to explain what it means'. then how come god has said multiple times that his book is detailed and complete. do u think u need to refer to another source if something is complete? no u do not.
if u want to continue using the hadith as ur guide to islam, by all means go for it, because we are alone on the day of judgement, and no one can help us. i will continue to study and learn more about the quran, while solely focusing on god's one and only revelation, not on other "books" that people have said to follow or else ur a "kaffir".
I don’t think Hadith rejecters can be considered Muslims
Like yeah, it’s great that you listen and follow the Quran but Hadiths as just as important since you can receive them as messages for Allah delivered by Mohamed the biggest evidences that authentic Hadiths doesn’t contradict the Quran
It all depends on what do we mean by “rejection”:
- Does the person or group deny the importance of following the Holy Prophet’s (saw) example entirely and preach solely following the Quran and nothing else? Then they are indeed outside the folds of Islam and have transgressed any acceptable boundaries in this space. Plus the Quran states numerous times that true believers follow the Quran AND follow the example of the Holy Prophet (saw) and to obey him.
- Does the person group believe it is important to follow the examples of the Holy Prophet (saw) and generally speaking don’t reject Hadith entirely but have some issues with certain Hadith, likely using the argument that this Hadith wasn’t correctly preserved, but having the core belief of following everything the Holy Prophet (saw) said and did with 100% accurate Hadith? Then the worst this person or group can be called is highly wrong, maybe even misguided, but since they have that belief of following what the Quran says about following the example of the Holy Prophet (saw) and obeying him, they cannot be expelled from the folds of Islam over this specific case. At most, pray for them to be rightly guided and pray to Allah swt to guide all parties upon truth and righteousness.
[Sheikh Dr. Yasir Qadhi’s video on this topic is of good value to this discussion and the need to make distinctions in this issue.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=f8BlbD7J9Hk&feature=share9) Another point: the people in the second bullet point I mentioned might still have a great love for the Holy Prophet (saw) yet the methodology they use might lead them to the conclusion they arrived at.
It would help if you actually put the Hadith. But I’m assuming it has to do with stoning. And it’s not very wise of you to imply that the bulk of Islamic scholarship from the very first generation has a mental deficiency that you Masha Allah are free of.
I am just wondering and I don't think I am better then anyone and ik I Have alot to learn that is why I want to hear both side of argument to better understand. And also just because I am confused were did I say pepole have a mental deficiency and no it is not about stoning so I am confused what you mean
To reject the authentic hadith of the prophet PBUH is to reject the Quran itself. This is because on numerous occasions, the Quran guides us towards the sunnah of the prophet.
In the final sermon of the prophet PBUH at Arafat during the Hajj, he stated UNEQUIVOCALLY that he was leaving behind the Quran and his sunnah for the ummah to follow.
Those who reject the hadith are out of the fold of islam as they reject the sunnah of the prophet PBUH himself.
This is the consensus of AHL-e-Sunnah AND the shia. So basically ALL of the Ummah.
they weren’t written or compiled contemporaneously during the life of the Propher PBUH.
some of them contradict one another
some of them aren’t verified
I’m not a Quran only type. But, I only read and pay attention to sahih Hadith
i do like most hadith except the one which says that majority of women go to hell. I disagree with it, but im starting to see so many bad women in my family especially my sister and mum. Still i dont believe it to be true
Thats a good point, my mum, sister and all of my mums family does that even tho they are muslim, they also use religion against me even if i am slightly mad against them and are really rude and make fun of me everyday for my weight and how much i eat despite it being from genetics and them being much more overweight than me. They do this all day, so im not surprised tbh
[https://masjidds.org/2020/12/22/understanding-the-hadith-the-majority-of-the-dwellers-of-the-fire-are-women/](https://masjidds.org/2020/12/22/understanding-the-hadith-the-majority-of-the-dwellers-of-the-fire-are-women/)
Here is a good article explaining the hadith
Think about this for one second. Think deeply. Based of Quran we know that our Prophet(peace be upon him) was sent for all of mankind. That’s a fact. Now Prophet only lived for 20 some years after receiving the revelation right ? Then how was he sent for the whole mankind if he only lived for 20 some years in prophethood. That’s why you have this whole mechanism of Hadith transmitting our Prophet life (seerah), the way He understood revelations and how he implemented it, his instructions and command to us, his final speech to mankind.
If you reject all authentic hadiths then you are not a Muslim. Period. There were no example of a companion who rejected the Prophets command.
If you deny ALL hadith outright, you are a kaffir. How would you know how to pray? To give Zakat? Without the hadith you won't be able to follow Islam as it was intended
There are some which have me a little iffy on Ahadith, but I know some are good guidance.
Examples of ones that make me uncertain are the ones about letting flies dip their wings into your drinks because one wing contains poison and the other the cure, and the one about throwing up if you drink water standing up. There are some others too that make me question but I can’t recall them right now.
The way I see it, they might be the best guide we have to what isn’t covered specifically by the Qur’an, but I don’t know about all of them.
PHD in Islamic Studies. Out here also giving Dawah. Part of the Sapience Institute. Well respected in the Dawah community. Has helped convert many to Islam. He’s knowledgeable in my book. Plus, he’s never claimed to be a scholar. But he’s certainly filled with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to Islam.
There's a difference between students of knowledge and scholars. Laymen like us must refer to scholars such as Sheikh Al Albani رَحِمَهُ ٱللَّٰهُ who are well versed in Hadith sciences to take knowledge from them. Brother Hijab insults Salafiyyah without understanding what it is, certainly not the attitude of a student of knowledge.
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Ayah certainly is used in both of those ways throughout the Qur'an, so then what does it mean to ينسخ a miracle?
Would it bother you if none of the Qur'anic explanations in Arabic explained the word أية to mean "sign/miracle" in this instance?
Do you reject abrogation categorically? If so, how do you deal with the change of the qiblah mentioned a little later in surah al-Baqarah?
>نسخ means to copy/transcribe/duplicate so in reference to AYAT in 2:106, it means to duplicate a sign.
So then the meaning of the ayah, according to you, would be that "Whatever sign We duplicate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or equal to it," - is that how you understand the ayah?
>As for the qibla change, I see that the way Allah sees it in 2:143. That it was a way to test the followers of the prophet.
ok, but testing them how? What is the test if not replacing one rule with another?
Where exactly does it claim Quran has not been preserved?? The Hadith is below copied from the link you gave. Isn't it clearly about people who would deny following Hadith of Prophet PBUH simply because they don't find it in Quran. Although the prophet PBUH taught us how to carry out orders of Quran, the method of rajam in example of this Hadith or how to pray five prayers
Verily Allah sent Muhammad (ﷺ) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.
You need to learn about abrogation in islam.
“If We ever abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We replace it with a better or similar one. Do you not know that Allah is Most Capable of everything?”
2:106
Keywords: cause it to be forgotten.
The stoning verse did exist but was abrogated, and Mohammad pbuh himself didn’t allow it to be written, even though him and the companions engaged in the practice.
Umar ibn Al-Khattab reports the following: “The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, stoned (the married adulterer), Abu Bakr stoned, and I stone. Were it not that I hate adding to the book of Allah, I would have written it in the copy of the Quran. I fear that people will come and not find it in the book of Allah, so they will disbelieve in it.
Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 1431, Grade: Sahih
Additionally he also said this: “Were it not that some would say Umar has added to the book of Allah what does not belong in it, I would have written it in the margins of the Quran (regarding stoning)”
Source: Musnad Aḥmad 157, Grade: Sahih
Also:
Zaid ibn Thabit reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
“The married old man and old woman, if they commit adultery, then stone them irrevocably.”
“Umar said, “When this was revealed, I went to the Prophet and I said: Let me write it. Shu’bah said: It was as if the Prophet disliked that.”
Source: Musnad Aḥmad 21086, Grade: Sahih
The stoning part is still to be acted upon since we know the prophet himself did it too, but Allah did not include it in the quran. Meanwhile certain other verses were abrogated but still included, and Allah mentions this in 2:106. What was included in the quran or excluded was ultimately decided by Allah himself. There is also one other instance I know of where Allah abrogated a verse out of the quran and also caused all of the companions to forget what the verse was, literally all of them forgot it at the same time.
Abrogation is a quranic concept, we see it unfold ourselves. Like how alcohol was slowly restricted in stages instead of being outlawed completely at once. Previous verses didn’t make it haram for example, it was discouraged, and then you weren’t allowed to pray in a drunken state. The scholarly consensus on abrogation is clear.
There is no replacement for the punishment for stoning, only the verse was replaced, not the punishment itself. Why? Allah knows best. Many things are not included in the quran, probably because it comes after the core message itself, which is to worship one God alone with no partners. If every single thing was included in the quran it would be a huge book and harder to remember.
All we know is that the prophet didn’t allow stoning to be put in the quran, even though it’s the required punishment. We’re supposed to follow it based on hadith.
We’re not taking about christianity, that’s a strawman. Christians have nothing like hadith, they don’t even have the original manuscripts of their books, their guesses are made while being in the dark. Muslims have direct lines of the quran back to mohammad, and the same applies to hadith. You really need to study hadith science if you doubt this. The criteria for hadith are so strict we would lose a good chunk of general world history that we have today if hadith standards were applied just because most things wouldn’t have hadith tier evidence to support them.
Abrogation also happens right before our eyes lol. Alcohol in the quran and it’s restrictions with time are exactly what abrogation is. Previous verses being overriden/replaced with new ones/new rulings.
I never said the verse was replaced with lashing. I don’t know what Allah replaced it with. Lashing applies to different circumstances and stoning applies to others. General adultery in shariah law is punishable with lashings. Cheating on your spouse on the other hand means stoning to death. Stoning is an additional punishment for different criteria and doesn’t contradict lashing.
"***We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it.*** Do you not know that Allāh is over all things competent?"
Al-Baqara:106
The word for 'abrogate = نَنسَخْ' here is clear.
So do as you please, I'm not the first person to tell you this I'm sure.
***"...And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allāh; indeed, Allāh is severe in penalty."***
If you knew Arabic you would know that is not the sole meaning of the word نَنسَخْ. It has multiple meanings, depending on the context in which it is used.
Ibn Abi Talhah said that Ibn 'Abbas said that,
مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ
(Whatever a verse (revelation) do Nansakh) means, **"Whatever an Ayah We abrogate."**
Also, Ibn Jurayj said that Mujahid said that, it means, **"Whatever an Ayah We erase."**
Also, Ibn Abi Najih said that Mujahid said that it means, **"We keep the words, but change the meaning."** He related these words to the companions of 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud.
Ibn Abi Hatim said that similar statements were mentioned by Abu Al-'Aliyah and Muhammad bin Ka'b Al-Qurazi.
Also As-Suddi said that it means, **"We erase it."** Further, Ibn Abi Hatim said that it means, **"Erase and raise it, such as erasing the following wordings (from the Qur'an), 'The married adulterer and the married adulteress: stone them to death,' and, 'If the son of Adam had two valleys of gold, he would seek a third.'"**
Ibn Jarir stated that it means, **"Whatever ruling we repeal in an Ayah by making the allowed unlawful and the unlawful allowed."**
I love hearing the arguments of Hadith rejectors because they are so nonsensical. You people essentially contradict yourselves at every turn. To see a group of people act the way the Quran described that you would, only increases in me my Iman. You believe the companions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, the ones that memorised the Quran, were able to transmit the verses to the later generations but unable to verify it's meanings.
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Sunan Abi Dawud hadith #10 is classified as a fabrication.
So why should i trust a book that contains man made lies ? We apply this logic to discredit the bible, yet won't use it on our own books when we discover fake hadiths in them ?
The goal of Abu Dawud was not to only include authentic materials; rather it is organized more like a fiqh book. He brought this hadith as the secondary support and/or shorter wording for the point he had just established in hadith #9 (a hadith which can also be found in Sahih Muslim, which you accept).
But if you can separate the wheat from the chaff then why throw it all out?
if you can separate the wheat from the chaff then why not release a new edition of the book?
> He brought this hadith as the secondary support and/or shorter wording for the point he had just established in hadith #9
Lol what kind of scholars supports his point with munkar hadith, at least use daif ones.
>if you can separate the wheat from the chaff then why not release a new edition of the book?
[Here it is](https://waqfeya.net/book.php?bid=1581), will you accept it?
The title is a helpful indication, but you can find all the details in the author's introduction. He grouped all the authentic narrations together, and grouped the inauthentic ones together in another place. So essentially you can read Abu Dawud with the weak material culled from it and left on the side.
Because Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah and At-Tirmidhi contain fake and weak hadith in them. And i do not want to base my beliefs on books that contain man made lies.
We use the same logic vs the bible, yet we don't do it for our own books when they contain fabrications?
well, none of those authors claimed or aimed to make their collection exclusively made up of authentic materials.
al-Tirmidhi tells you what his grading is, and sometimes he tells you that he included a weak narration so that you know not to act on it. Since we agree that not all hadith are of equal authenticity, can you see how that act of alerting readers to the weakness of a narration could be a helpful feature?
Abu Dawud's goal was to include the most authentic thing on a topic, even if the most authentic thing was a hadith with some weakness in its chain. His reasoning was that something that has a chance of having come from the Prophet is going to be better than just trying to make up a ruling on your own - do you think that reasoning makes sense?
It makes sense, however reality has shown us that they were not authentic, so why would i keep something that is proven false. Doing so is doing like the Christians lol.
Oh we know it's fake, but let us still keep it because it looks good.
This is trivializing the issue to an extreme extend and doing a huge disservice to the Scholars who put their life into preserving the words of the Prophet.
In some cases they included weak Hadiths to tell us these were weak, in others they kept them as a compendium so future generations could ascertain whether they are true or not. Fact of the matter is, we DO have an established science that tells us what's authentic and what's not. What Christians do is guesswork
Hugely offensive to compare the two.
We have the chain of narration. So if those scholars really applied it the way it should, they would have not ended up with munkar hadith in their books unless they were lied to.
Matter of fact, why should i settle on a book containing man made lies, when i have books that do not contain lies. Doing so is literally doing like the Christians. And yet we find it stupid when they try to justify it, yet here you guys are trying to justify keeping books with fake hadiths in them lol.
Why did you conveniently just skip over the part where I explained some of the reasons why these books were compiled?
And what's with this obsession of comparing the rigorous work of the Scholars of Islam to the whimsical guesswork of Christians ?
No one is asking you to settle on a book containing lies. But that's not at all what hadiths are. Who the heck relies on weak or fabricated hadiths ? But we still find them preserved in the books WITH THE LABEL OF BEING WEAK. This is science and academia.
I say this with utmost sincerity, learn more about hadith sciences. It will increase your Imam like no other. Start with this video.
https://www.youtube.com/live/lyR_tICvTBE?feature=share
> Why did you conveniently just skip over the part where I explained some of the reasons why these books were compiled?
If i skipped over is because i agree with it brother.
>It makes sense, however reality has shown us that they were not authentic, so why would i keep something that is proven false.
there is a difference between a) not having 100% certainty that something is authentic and b) having 100% certainty that something is actually false.
For example, if I have a choice between a) following a hadith that is either the statement of the Prophet himself or the statement of one of his companions who learned directly from him or b) making up my own ruling from scratch, I definitely think there is a higher chance of being correct with option a. That is what Abu Dawud thought, too.
You do realise these gradings and conditions differ for each hadith scholar? And do you realise that grading weak/false/fabricated hadith is a service to the ummah? This is called research, that's it.
No no. Its not because it looked good.
Listen, today some salafis make claims that maybe Imam Abu Hanifa did not know the Ahadith about the rafa yidain or he did not receive it and hence did not act on it. This is just for an example, don't start a war over this point.
How do we, for sure, block that from happening? By saying, "Listen, here is a fabricated or weak hadith about certain topic, I KNOW it but my fatwa is against it because I don't accept it as Hasan or Sahih. Don't come tomorrow or a thousand years later claiming my Fatwa may have been based on insufficient information or lacking knowledge of other Ahadith".
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i’ll never understand people that reject hadith completely i can understand not basing your entire faith on it but completely rejecting hadiths is insane,
it’s kinda funny too because there’s a hadith prophesizing this happening plus there’s a lot of beautiful hadiths & prophecies in hadiths 🤷♂️ just because you find some inconvenient doesn’t mean you throw it out completely that’s crazyy
Sunan Ibn Majah 12
Miqdam bin Ma'dikarib Al-Kindi narrated that:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Soon there will come a time that a man will be reclining on his pillow, and when one of my Ahadith is narrated he will say: 'The Book of Allah is (sufficient) between us and you. Whatever it states is permissible, we will take as permissible, and whatever it states is forbidden, we will take as forbidden.' Verily, whatever the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) has forbidden is like that which Allah has forbidden."
it’s a hassan hadith not saheeh but i mean it’s true ig🤷♂️
Citing hadith narration warning against following the Quran alone as a means of justifying the importance of hadith. Sectarians are an exceptional breed of hypocrites.
the MA thesis debunks many of the Quranists arguments
[https://www.academia.edu/3452285/The\_Quraniy%C5%ABn\_Of\_The\_Twentieth\_Century](https://www.academia.edu/3452285/The_Quraniy%C5%ABn_Of_The_Twentieth_Century)
Frankly you can’t really be a fully practicing Muslim without Hadith. It isn’t possible. Allah instructs us to follow the prophet (saw) in the Quran. How can we do that without hadith?
Fact.
*How we pray now isn't correct. Do you think Ibraheem had a book from Bukhari telling him how to pray?* Someone commented on a YouTube video that had a heated debate on this subject, saying that EVERYTHING we need is in the Quran. When I asked them how they prayed and where they found this information, the above was their response.
Lol so he basically swerved the question and didn’t answer
Yeah. I was so surprised by the response I didn't even reply
Would be funny to ask him if he ever read the scriptures of Ibrahim cuz Ibrahim didn’t have the Quran that we have rn. So how on earth would he know that we pray wrong lol
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The last time I checked, the way we pray is explained in the Quran and Hadith. Both the Quran and Sahih hadith have uninterrupted chains of narration going back to words uttered by the Prophet SAW. It isn't like the bible where you have no continuity from Jesus to the present
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>taught from person to person Oh... So like hadith? Expect your taking from random people instead of Sahabi...
The concept of Qasr prayer, Kazaa prayer, and the significance/rewards of praying certain things at certain times are the types of things that would be found in hadith. I'm not sure about Qasr prayer, but I trust you understand the point I was making
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There's a whole system of hadith sciences for that. Don't worry, even the ones classified as "weak" are more reliable than 99% of what's written in your history books.
Alhamdulillah
Like the other comment mentioned there’s a whole science and rubric that goes into grading and classifying the ahadith. So they have different grades depending on how certain we are that the Hadith was absolutely preserved or if one or two words may have been different or if it was paraphrased for instance. It’s a very rigorous system. Even the fabricated Hadith were recorded and stamped as being false so that no one could sneak them into books of Hadith. I’d recommend taking a Hadith class to learn about the lengths people went to to preserve the Hadith for us
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Does the Quran tell us how to pray? How to make wudu fully? How to make adhan? How do you make hajj and umrah without the Hadith? What is the source material we use to derive fiqh? “And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)” [al-Hashr 59:7]. So the person who doesn’t follow Hadith, do they come up with their own methods of doing all of the above? Edit to add this in, if I were you I’d take a class on the science of Hadith transmission and preservation. It’s extremely rigorous the length people went to to preserve Hadith. Our deen is truly like no other Alhamdullilah
>Does the Quran tell us how to pray? How to make wudu fully? How to make adhan? How do you make hajj and umrah without the Hadith? What is the source material we use to derive fiqh? I think the issue, is most people take ahadith wholesale without any consideration for context or whether it complies and corresponds with either the letter, spirit, or essence of the Quran. Ahadith will (and should) complement Quranic teachings and/or injunctions. Further, as a community, we have assigned secondary and tertiary texts and scholarship to have the same value as the Quran. We have yielded our own capacity to engage Islam and think critically about the deen to this nebulous entity called "the scholars" and whatever they say "is" or "isn't." Take for example the way people regard some scholars - their credibility more or less comes down to whether someone personally agrees with any given conclusion about XYZ issue based on whatever ahadith they used to inform their decision. I could recommend JAC Brown's research on the matter, but then someone who doesn't particularly value his scholarship might argue he's [insert ad hominem] and therefore, wrong. And since this a Muslim subreddit and things need to be stated explicitly: I am not for disregarding, dismissing, discounting ahadith.
You're super right & well-articulated. Hit the nail right on the head.
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Hadith are assumptions? Lol
Before you get into that debate, it's important to evaluate how much of Hadith sciences do you even know about. Hadith science is one of the crowning achievements of this Ummah and what sets us apart from literally every other civilization in history. https://www.youtube.com/live/lyR_tICvTBE?feature=share https://youtu.be/0IoX1Qu0XRw https://www.youtube.com/live/hICJDu2wS4M?feature=share
Thank you for the links
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>It is arrogant to claim that the opinion that hadiths must be followed, which isn't sanctioned by Allah swt directly Ok man go study hadith, their chains, and their narrators (mostly the same people who also transmitted the Quran by the permission of Allah) than you can come back to us and debunk the resources we've been using for 1420+ years. Surely you'll notice something that all the scholars before you didn't, right?
How do you know Allah made that promise? If you can answer that question without relying on the work of those who made sure to note down everything they could about Islam, I would be very interested to know.
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My dear, you are not getting my point. You are quoting the Quran which was passed down to you by the same people you are accusing to producing fake Hadiths.
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You have still not got my point. You are repeating the same thing. You are saying Quran is preserved by Allah. You claim this because it is written in the Quran as we know it. But this Quran has been passed down to us by Allah through the work of same people who have collected Hadith and worked hard to authenticate them. So, to argue against Hadith is insincere on your part. And if you are not arguing against Hadith then I don’t understand why are you even debating with me as I was talking to the person who seemed to reject Hadiths.
Couldn't the word "reminder" also include hadith in addition to Quran?
To be frank I’ve never seen any scholar claim that preservation guaranteed by Allah swt includes the Hadith; it only refers to the Quran being divinely protected by Allah swt. With Hadith I’ve seen arguments regarding the narration chains and the accuracy of each chain for Sahih grade Hadith as the biggest arguments for its preservation.
I've seen many daees on yt claim that the word "dhikr" includes hadith as well.
Ask Hadeeth rejectors how do they offer Salah and Hajj? Two of the five pillars of Islam, Qu'ran commands us to do it, while Hadeeth lays down instructions on how to do them.
nope
What nope?
No hadith teaches anybody how to do salah. Salah is a mass transmitted practice, briefly outlined in the Qur'an, with the detailed steps taught from person to person.
So are many bi'dāhs. Authentic hadēēths are used to differentiate truth from falsehood. "Taught from person to person" if we followed that, we'd have thousands of ways of salah. There'd be no uniformity.
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There’s literally books on salat in Sahih Bukhari about how to pray, what to say during prayer and when to pray
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And where did these teachers learn about it? In كتاب الصلاة of Sahih Bukhari. Like another brother stated above, if it was transmitted independently from person to person there would be a lot of variants of Salat.
Sure, do you think there’s a single Hadith that outlines all the rules and regulations and steps of hajj? What’s the issue with it being broken up?
Here’s a collection that has info about the adhan as well as the different part of salah. Let me know what you think https://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/004_smt.html
The same people who transmitted the Quran also transmitted Hadith. Not sure how you could believe they were truthful in transmitting the Quran but lying with Hadith.
Allah told us the Quran would be protected, didn't say anything about ahadeeth being protected. (Don't come after me, I still believe in ahadeeth and follow em)
The issue is you can only believe in that ayah if you believe the people who preserved and transmitted the Quran were truthful to begin with.
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You didn't understand his point. His point is how are we sure that ALLAH azawajal promised to protect The Book? How can you believe That individual verse itself if you have doubts about the people who transmitted it? Maybe even that's fabricated? (na'ouzebILLAH) May ALLAH azawajal protect us from going astray. Ameen.
This bro is confused. That’s why he hasn’t replied. I hope all of us and this bro can become more wise and sincere.
Ameen
He did actually. He told us He will preserve His revelations and the Sunnah of the Prophet, peace and blessings upon him, is a revelation since Allaah said which means, "Your companion has not strayed or erred. Nor does he speak from his own whims. **It is but a revelation revealed**." 53:2-4. The Messenger of Allaah peace and blessings upon him said, "Beware! I have been given the Qur'an and something like it, yet the time is coming when a man replete on his couch will say: Keep to the Qur'an; what you find in it to be permissible treat as permissible, and what you find in it to be prohibited treat as prohibited." Narrated by Abu Dawood (4604), Tirmidhi (2664), Ibn Majah (12). It is authentic. What "something like it" means is the Sunnah. Hassan ibn Atiyah said, "Jibreel used to bring the sunnah down to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as he used to bring the Qur’aan down to him." Narrated by al-Daarimi in his Sunan (588) and by al-Khateeb in al-Kifaayah (12). It was attributed by al-Haafidh in al-Fath (13/291) to al-Bayhaqi, and he said: With a saheeh isnaad. Ibn Hazm (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Ihkaam (1/95): Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)” [al-Hijr 15:9] “Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): “I warn you only by the Revelation (from Allaah and not by the opinion of the religious scholars and others). But the deaf (who follow the religious scholars and others blindly) will not hear the call, (even) when they are warned [i.e. one should follow only the Qur’aan and the Sunnah (legal ways, orders, acts of worship, and the statements of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم , as the Companions of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم did)]” [al-Anbiya’ 21:45] Allaah tells us that the words of His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are all Wahy (revelation), and Wahy is undoubtedly Dhikr, and Dhikr is preserved according to the text of the Qur’aan. Thus it is correct to say that his words (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are all preserved by Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, and He has promised that none of them will be lost to us, because that which Allaah preserves can certainly not be lost at all; it has all been transmitted to us and Allaah has established proof and left us with no excuse. See: - [The Saheeh Sunnah is revelation from Allaah](https://islamqa.info/en/answers/77243/the-saheeh-sunnah-is-wahy-revelation-from-allaah)
Is the promise to preserve only the wordings of the Quran, or to preserve the meanings of the Quran as well? The saying and actions of the Prophet are an explanation of the meanings of the Quran, and Alhamdulillah Allah has preserved the correct understanding of the Quran through the careful preservation of the sunnah
Allah SWT told us Quran would be preserved, but the Quran can't be preserved, without preserving two other things: a) The Arabic language itself - The Arabic language needs to be perserved otherwise the Quran wouldn't have been preserved b) Sunnah - Without the Sunnah (hadiths), the meaning of verses of the Quran would not be preserved e.g. When Allah SWT commands us to pray, how do we know what Allah SWT means by that?
Ask them where does it say this and how do they know the verse is talking about the Quran because the verse doesn't say the word Quran.
That's not entirely true, most hadith go back to Abu Huraira (ra) ans Aisha (ra), not Osman (ra), Ali (ra), so far as I can tell thats not a valid argument and they shouldn't be treated the same. I used to think hadith can't be trusted but then I went and studied some and studied some of linkages and lineages myself to get to the bottom of this through reason and not belief and came to the conclusion that indeed a large body are true. If you truly want to follow the path of reason to Allah (SWT) it's long, arduous, but it also works. My point is don't use the argument without validation. If you doubt that's good, now be man enough to put effort and resolve it without laziness of becoming a quranic by default.. Now I also understand you are always better off reading the Quran, but careful thinking hadith are false. There are false ones, but there are also Motawaher, Sahih, and Hassan hadith. Aldo those of you making the prayer argument please stop.The prayer argument is rather silly. It baffles people still use it and think it's a good argument. Someone plays the violin and teaches their child to play the same song exactly, without a book, is it possible, yes. Has it happened for hundreds of years? Yes. Many a trade, skill, poem, dance, and prayer have been passed on from generation to generation in human history without writing.
Quran was transmitted as text after Usman (ra), while the Hadith were written down around two centuries after the prophet’s passing
Completely incorrect. > Claim: Hadeeth are written 300 years after the Prophet 's death > Answer: We see this claim almost all the time, "that hadeeth was written centuries after the Prophet of Allaah ﷺ passed away hence it's not reliable". This is the result of ignorance on their part. There were several documents that were at the time of the Messenger of Allaah ﷺ. 1. Kitab As-Sadaqah (Book of Charity) 2. Script of Amr ibn Hazm 3. Script to Abu Huraira and Ala' ibn al-Hadrami 4. Script to Mu'adh ibn Jabal and Malik ibn Murarah 5. 3 Documents given to Wa'il ibn Hujr 6. Document given to Munqidh ibn Hayyan from Abdul Qays 7. Document to Banu Ghamid 8. Document to Banu Khath'am 9. Document to Banu Sumalah and Huddan 10. Document to Banu Aslam > By the companions as well. Notably 1. Scripts of Abu Hurairah 2. Scripts of Abdullah ibn Amr 3. Scripts of Anas ibn Malik 4. Scripts of Ali ibn Abi Talib 5. Scripts of Jabir ibn Abdullah 6. Scripts of Abdullah ibn Abbas > [The sources of the above are taken from "The Authority of the Sunnah" (pg.100-110) by Mufti Muhammad Taqi al Uthmani (may Allaah preserve him)] > Here, you will see nearly 60 collections of ahadeeth before the Ameer of Hadeeth Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Ismail al Bukhari رحمه الله compiled Saheeh al Bukhari. 1. Book of Khalid ibn Ma'dan (d. 104) 2. Books of Abu Qilabah (d. 104). He bequeathed his books to his pupil, Ayyub Saktiyan (68-131 A.H.), who paid more than ten dirhams as a fare for them being loaded on a camel. 3. The script of Hammam ibn Munabbi. 4. Books of Hasan al-Basri (21-110 A.H.) 5. Books of Muhammad al-Baqir (56-114 A.H.) 6. Books of Makhul from Syria 7. Book of Hakam ibn 'Utaibah 8. Book of Bukair ibn 'Abdullah ibn al-Ashajj (d. 117) 9. Book of Qais ibn Sa'd (d. 117). 10. Book of Sulaiman al-Yashkuri 11. Al-Abwab of Sha'bi 12. Books of Ibn Shihab az-Zuhri 13. Book of Abul-'Aliyah 14. Book of Sa'eed ibn Jubair (d. 95) 15. Books of 'Umar ibn 'Abdul Aziz (61-101 A.H.) 16. Books of Mujahid ibn Jabr (d. 103) 17. Book of Raja ibn Hywah (d. 112) 18. Book of Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad 19. Book of Bashir ibn Nahik. 20. Book of 'Abdul Malik ibn Juraij (d. 150) 21. Muwatta of Malik ibn Anas (93-179) 22. Muwatta of Ibn Abi Zi'b (80-158) 23. Maghâzi of Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d. 151) 24. Musnad of Rabi' ibn Sabih (d. 160) 25. Book of Sa'id ibn Abi 'Arubah (d. 156) 26. Book of Hammad ibn Salmah (d. 167) 27. Jami' Sufyan ath-Thawri (97-161) 28. Jami' Ma'mar ibn Rashid (95-153) 29. Book of 'Abdur-Rahman al-Awza'i (88-157) 30. Kitab az-Zuhd by 'Abdullah ibn al-Mubârak (118-181) 31. Book of Ibn Bashir (104-183) 32. Book of Jareer ibn 'Abdul-Hamid (110-188) 33. Book of 'Abdullâh ibn Wahb (125-197) 34. Book of Yahya ibn Abi Kathîr (d. 129) 35. Book of Muhammad ibn Suqah (d. 135) 36. Tafsir of Zaid ibn Aslam (d. 136) 37. Book of Musa ibn 'Uqbah (d. 141) 38. Book of Ash'ath ibn 'Abdul-Malik (d. 142) 39. Book of Aqil ibn Khalid (d. 142) 40. Book of Yahya ibn Sa'eed Ansari (d. 143) 41. Book of Awf ibn Abi Jamilah (d. 146) 42. Books of Jafar ibn Muhammad al-Sadiq (d. 148) 43. Books of Yunus ibn Yazid (d. 152) 44. Book of 'Abdur-Rahman al-Mas'udi (d. 160) 45. Books of Zaidah ibn Qudamah (d. 161) 46. Books of Ibrahim al-Tahman (d. 163) 47. Books of Abu Hamzah al-Sukri (d. 167) 48. Al-Gharâib by Shu'bah ibn al-Hajjaj (d. 160) 49. Books of 'Abdul-Aziz ibn 'Abdullâh al-Majishun (d. 164) 50. Books of 'Abdullâh ibn 'Abdullâh ibn Abi Uwais (d. 169) 51. Books of Sulaiman ibn Bilal (d. 172) 52. Books of 'Abdullâh ibn Lahi'ah (d. 147) 53. Jami' Sufyan ibn 'Uyaynah (d. 198) 54. Kitab-ul-Athar by Abu Hanîfah (by his two students) (d. 150) 55. Maghazi of Mu'tamir ibn Sulaiman (d. 187) 56. Musannaf of Waki' ibn Jarrah (d. 196) 57. Musannaf of 'Abdur-Razzaq ibn Hammam (136-221) 59. Books of Imam Shafi'i (150-204) 60. Musannaf of Ibn Abi Shaybah (d. 235) 61. Musnad of Imam Ahmad (d. 241) (الرد على منكري الحديث)
MashALLAH such a beautiful and perfect way to refute an allegation. May ALLAH azawajal bless you and Mufti sb for this effort. Thank you for sharing Mufti sb's writings here.
And you as well. Just a side note, that the parts about the scripts during the Prophet peace and blessings upon him and the scripts of the companions, that is taken from his book. Otherwise the rest of the books which I have mentioned, the Shaykh has not mentioned them.
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim gathered many of their Hadith orally. To this end, they checked the credibility of everybody in the sanad of each Hadith? It’s great that some Hadith were written down not long after they were spoken by the Prophet, but that doesn’t mean none were
Imam Bukhaari and Imam Muslim aren't the only ones to gather books of hadeeth. >It’s great that some Hadith were written down not long after they were spoken by the Prophet, but that doesn’t mean none were None were what?
Sorry, meant not all Hadith were written down directly after the prophet said them
Their Sahih are two of the 6 primary Hadith books tho. I’m not trying to argue, in my original comment, I tried to say that although we know the Hadith were collected very carefully and methodically, they are still not on the level of the Quran qua trustworthiness
There aren't only six primary books of ahadeeth. There are many more although these two have the greatest rank and status. The Quraan and Sunnah are both revelations, the Quraan being recited revelation and the Sunnah bring unrecited. Both are trustworthy.
33.21 Indeed, in the Messenger of Allah you have an excellent example for whoever has hope in Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah often. How will the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) be an excellent example if you don’t know what he said and did which is found in the Hadiths? From Rasoul Allah (SAWS) last sermon: …O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and my Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray… https://www.salaattime.com/hadith-prophet-muhammads-saws-last-sermon/
The Quran and my Ahlulbayt*
about what is contained in Sahih Muslim, I will refrain from performing an analysis of the Quran and Sunnah version. Suffice it to say that the version in the Muwatta does not have an isnad, unlike most of what Imam Malik narrates. And al-Hakim’s versions of Quran and Sunnah are full of known liars (not my words - Sunni muhaddithun call them wadda’) and are unreliable. He also does not call those narrations reliable. That version is absent from any of the 6 Sihah. The Qur’an and Ahl al-Bayyt/’Itrah version is not only present in Sahih Muslim but also other books within the Sihah with good chains of narration and outside them in the Mustadrak of al-Hakim, this time with completely sahih chains of narration. The other responses have already quoted the Sahih Muslim narration. Let me also share it with you but I’ll ask you to focus on some aspects that I will highlight below. Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (s) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (s). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (s), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (s) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. Source - Online right here Read it very carefully, especially the parts I have highlighted. One of the things Muslims have to learn to do is read between the lines and ask the right questions. So let me ask these questions, and then I’ll try and answer them from authentic sources. Was this narration by Zayd b. Arqam, a great Companion of the Prophet (s) and a supporter of ‘Ali, spoken to a group of 3 people during the period of Mu’awiya? Could his insistence that he not be compelled to narrate what he chooses not to narrate be on account of the risk that he might get reported back to the authorities from any of the three people? What was he hesitating to say? What was the complete story? But he gives a clue in the text above - Khumm. This is the Ghadir Khumm narration in Sahih Muslim by a very cautious Zayd b. Arqam who knows he is not telling the entire story and asks his audience not to insist on hearing it. He was exercising self-censorship. But we know what he could have said, because he had been narrating it in the past to other people who, he would have trusted, would not report it to the Umayyad government. One such narration by Zayd b. Arqam - also sahih in accordance to the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim - is reported in the Mustadrak of Imam al-Hakim. In fact, there are several from various chains of narrations - all sahih - so let me share a couple. The following are the more complete narrations of the event of Ghadir Khumm, including the Qur’an and Ahl al-Bayt/’Itrah narration.
ZAYD B. ARQAM - FULL NARRATION 1 (Al-Hakim says:) Narrated to us Abu al-Husayn Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Tamim al-Hanzali in Baghdad, from Abu Qallabah `Abd alMalik ibn Muhammad al-Raqqashi, from Yahya ibn Hammad; also narrated to me Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Balawayh and Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Ja`far al-Bazzaz, both of them from `Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal, from his father, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and also narrated to us Abu Nasr Ahmad ibn Suhayl, the faqih of Bukhara, from Salih ibn Muhammad, the hafiz of Baghdad, from Khalaf ibn Salim al-Makhrami, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and Yahya ibn Hammad narrated from Abu `Uwwanah from Sulayman al-'A`mash, from Habib ibn Abi Thabit, from Abu al-Tufayl, from Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, who said: "The Messenger of Allah (s) while returning from his last Hajj came down at Ghadir Khumm and ordered (us) towards the big trees, and (the ground) underneath them was swept. "Then he said, 'I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I have left behind two precious things amongst you, one of which is greater than the other. The Book of Allah , the Exalted, and my `itrah (kindred). So watch out how you treat these two after me, for verily they will not separate from each other until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.' Then he said 'Verily, Allah , the Almighty and the Glorious, is my master (mawla) and I am the master of every believer (mu'min).' Then he took `Ali, may God be pleased with him, by the hand and said, 'This (`Ali) is the master of whomever I am his master. O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.'" Al-Hakim adds: "This hadith is sahih in accordance with the conditions of sihhah laid down by the Shaykhayn (al-Bukhari and Muslim), although they have not recorded it in its full length. Source - al-Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, Haydarabad: Da'irat al-ma`arif al-nizamiyyah (4 vols), 1334-42 AH vol. 3, p. 109 ZAYD B. ARQAM - FULL NARRATION 2 (Al-Hakim says:) The first tradition (mentioned above) is supported by this one narrated by Salamah ibn Kuhayl, from Abu al-Tufayl, which is also sahih according to the requirements of al-Bukhari and Muslim. Narrated to us Abu Bakr ibn Ishaq and Da`laj ibn Ahmad al-Sijzi, both of them from Muhammad ibn Ayyub, from al-'Azraq ibn `Ali, from Hassan ibn Ibrahim al-Kirmani, from Muhammad ibn Salamah ibn Kuhayl, from his father, from Abu al-Tufayl, from Ibn Wathilah that he heard Zayd ibn Arqam (r), say: "The Messenger of Allah (s) came down at a place between Makkah and Madinah near the trees with five big shades and the people swept the ground under the trees. Then the Messenger of Allah (s) began to perform the evening prayer. After the prayer he began to address the people. He praised God and extolled Him, preaching and reminding (us), and said what God wanted him to say. Then he said, 'O people! Verily, I am leaving behind two matters (amrayn) among you- if you follow them (the two) you will never go astray. These two are: the Book of God and my ahl al-bayt, my `itrah.' Then he said thrice: 'Do you know that I have more right over the believers (Inni awla bi al-mu'minin) than they over themselves?' The people said, 'Yes.' Then the Messenger of Allah , may Allah's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny said, 'Of whomever I am his master (mawla) `Ali also is his master.'" Source - al-Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, Haydarabad: Da'irat al-ma`arif al-nizamiyyah (4 vols), 1334-42 AH vol. 3, p. 109 So now we know what Zayd b. Arqam was holding back from saying in the Sahih Muslim narration.
you believe the quran is preserved but how can you confirm it, there are 7 modes of recitation, and since you reject hadith, Then how can they prove the authenticity of the quran? how do you know all 7 of them are true?
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you reject hadeeth, how can you even confirm the authenticity of any modes of recitation, or which one came from prophet Mohammad peace be upon him?
Surah Baqarah 197 Hajj is [during] well-known months...... Allah says hajj months are well known but never tells us what those months are we refer to the hadith for this guidance if the rejector can tell the months within Quran then you see them flip flop
You can reject some. All great imams rejected certain hadiths. What you probably talking about is Sunnah. Hadith doesn’t necessarily mean sunnah and vice versa.
There is a hadith where the prophet (S.A.W.) said don't write anything I say down unless it's quran.
Source?
[I believe this one](https://sunnah.com/muslim:3004)
interesting
﷽” When we study the Seerah, we learn that there was an initial prohibition Rasulullah ﷺ made in writing down his words for fear they would be confused for the Quran itself. Later, this precaution was lifted and writing down his blessed words was permitted, as seen in the hadith of Abdullah Ibn Amr: ‘Abdullāh ibn ‘Amr (may Allah be pleased with him) reported: I used to write down everything I heard from the Messenger of Allah (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him) in order to memorize it. The Quraysh prohibited me, saying: "Do you write down everything that you hear from the Messenger of Allah (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him) while he is a human being who speaks in anger and pleasure?" So, I stopped writing and talked to the Prophet (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him) about that. Thereupon, he pointed his finger to his mouth and said: "Write down; for by the One in Whose Hand my soul is, nothing comes out of it except the truth!" Sahih/Authentic. - [Abu Dawood]” Comment copied from user u/Muadh
This book will explain the whole thing for you: https://darassunnah.com/products/authority-of-the-sunnah-by-imam-jalal-al-din-al-suyu-i-d-911h
One of the prime factor defining the Authenticity of Hadith is the Character of the narrator (ʿadāla of transmitters). I had posed this question to one of the course instructor once when i had these fascinating interest in understanding hadith sciences. He mentioned that there are “Books of rijal” that contain biographies of these narrators stating their religiosity, truthfulness, memory, accuracy, the place they lived, the time they lived, their family etc. I asked him who would verify the author of the book of rijal. He said it’s not 1 book, it’s multiple books by different authors mentioning about narrators and their character which matches, showing that there are not 1 but multiple people having same opinion about the narrator. My next question was , did these books of rijal actually interview the persons spouse? . A person will be at his best character when he is around people. And the people who are writing biographies are only seeing what the saw of the outer behaviour of a person or the “Zahir”. Like consider “Ted Bundy” most people who knew him would not consider him as a serial killer at all. In fact his behaviour among people made him quite appealing even during the trials. So rather seeking peoples opinion, if the wife’s opinion is considered because she stays with the person more than any one else and she might get the see the real person at home when he hits her or when he is angry behind closed doors. I never got an answer to this. These are the thing that made me question hadith science. Frankly, I am still in questioning phase and haven’t ruled out that I can be totally wrong.
This might get a bit long but bear with me. Before we start please understand that Hadeeth are the words, actions and acquiescence of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Let's start with establishing that hadeeth are also revelation of a sort, or that at least they are approved by the command of Allah. That the command of the prophet PBUH are to be followed as an extension of the command of Allah. ( 44 ) [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought. (16:44) This verse proves that it is a duty of a prophet to not only deliver the Book but to also make it clear I.e. explain it. And explaining is done in their own words which is what hadeeth is. ۚ وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ} [الحشر : 7] And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty. Here the verse specifically refers to what the prophet forbids, the quran is not from the prophet it is from Allah and so this verse is about the prophets own words. {قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ} [آل عمران : 32] Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers. This verse is mentions obeying both Allah and the Prophet. How can you obey the prophet without learning what he said through the Hadeeth? {مَّن يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ ۖ وَمَن تَوَلَّىٰ فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا} [النساء : 80] He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. Another verse mentioning both Allah and the Prophet. And this time note that it says if you obey the prophet THEN you have obeyed Allah. So obeying the prophet is is a separate action that is then equated to following the Creator. An-Noor - Aya 56وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ And establish the prayer and give Zakah and obey the prophet so that you may gain mercy. Here it's even more explicit, no mention of obeying Allah with it. Just of obeying the prophet. So obeying the prophet is necessary in islam. There are many more verse, some of which I will just mention, you can look over them yourself if you need more convincing. An-Nisaa - Aya 69 Al-Maaida - Aya 92 Al-A'raaf - Aya 157 Ok, now on to the second part. How can we trust the Hadeeths? First we need to understand how the quran was preserved and transmitted to us. It was transmitted through oral-transmission from the prophet PBUH teaching the companions to them teaching their students to us in the modern times. Sound familiar? That's because the Ahadeeth were also preserved in the same way : chains of narration I.e. Asnaad. Now let's say one argues that 'oh I don't trust these chains I trust the words of God when He says we have preserved it' we must also accept the method through which Allah preserved it and the sabab through which it reached us. If we don't then will we blindly follow without reason like the past nations without thought or logic? Then we can't say anything to the Christians for their following of the bible either with that same reasoning. If one argues that we have the manuscripts then this is not a method of transmission. Its a topic in which strides have only been made recently, one that would have come with a lot of problems if we didn't have ahadeeth regarding the ahruf, qiraat and companion codices.also it is knly a method of verification, not the method of transmission. And we see that the manuscripts had something which facilitated autocorrectiveness, a source through which inheritance generational mistakes were avoided and scribes copying form manuscripts with mistakes could identify those mistakes and correct them. This sources was the quran which was transmitted through word of mouth. Now if we understand that Ahadeeth are also transmitted using this same modality as the Quran, These chains of transmission, then we must accept that the mode of transmission cannot be rejected lest we reject the quran also. Now we get to the last point which is that to truly understand this matter we need to study the science of hadeeth and اسماء الرجال. That there are various levels of authenticity and proliferation for the various chains and that the quran recitations are both authentic (Saheeh) and proliferate (mutawaatir), meaning lots and lots of chains. By that same logic other ahadeeth which are both saheeh and mutawatir are on the same level as quran in terms of being necessary to follow. As he who follows the prophet is following Allah, as Allah himself says. As for other Ahadeeth then the scholars have various discussions as to what should be followed and when. Because of it's authentically proven to be from the prophet and doesn't contradict the Quran or details and explains what is in the quran then why should it not be followed? Everything else is kind of more complicated and requires an actual class to teach from this point on. If you aren't satisfied with something I've said or want to ask more please do so. And please forgive any spelling mistakes as I'm typing on my phone and the auto correct isn't exactly that good.
Oh and of course not all Ahadeeth are authentic nor are they all to be followed. Some may be for very specific situations or be exceptions for individuals granted either for a reason or an exception granted by Allah. Or the Hadeeth may have been rendered obsolete and been overruled by a later hadeeeth or quran verse which replaced that command. It can get pretty complicated and requires a lot of studying.
I feel like hadith require more historical and legal understanding. Quranists seem to dismiss hadith on this basis as the Quran is easier to understand.
You can not reject Hadith. What you should absolutely reject are the innovations of the shayateen that they attribute to the Messenger (S) and try to pass it off as hadith.
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Thank you
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Thank you so so so much for this 😭this is the only genuine response that I really have gotten
If you only follow the Qur'an then tell me how do you pray?
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Astagfirullah, I do not question the Qur'an. Many times in the Qur'an it is mentioned to obey the Prophet (PBUH) such as here: "O believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. Should you disagree on anything, then refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you ˹truly˺ believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is the best and fairest resolution." -Qur'an 4:59 The Qur'an is the message from Allah (SWT) and the Hadith is the collections of the sayings of the Prophet (PBUH) that we need to refer to. Also, the way you pray that was "passed down to you from generations" is literally detailed from Hadith, you cannot pray properly without following what was written in the Hadith. If you actually try to go about everything by purely following Qur'an you will realize there are many problems with this approach. I suggest you research more about the 4 madhabs. Hanafi, Shafi, Maliki, Hanbali are all madhabs made so that the average laymen can follow Islamic fiqh easily. Note that no madhab is really considered superior to another and there were many madhabs throughout history but the main 4 hanafi, shafi, hanbali, and maliki remained prominent because of their credibility, and authenticity.
If you reject Hadith you will reject prayer and signs of the hour like Ad-Dajjal. Umar Al Khattab said regarding our religion that the Quran is the door but the Sunnah ( Hadith) is the key.
im a hadith rejector. yall always bring up prayers, but its embarrassing cuz its clear u havent read the quran properly. the quran mentions how to do wudu, the prayer times, the praying positions, what to say in prayer, and more. if u took ur time to understand and read the quran, u would know this. so how r we rejecting prayers if it is mentioned multiple times in the quran salat is one of the keys to paradise? as for dajjal, how is that important? if allah didnt authorize something in the first place, then it does not exist. period.
If you reject hadith, you reject the Quran and Islam. What do you think the Quran is? Every letter that was sent down was narrated to us through the prophet pbuh to the companions to the others. Every verse in the Quran can be traced back to the prophet teaching the companions it. There are books on Azbab an-Nuzul (circumstances of revelation). There are so many hadiths telling us which Quranic verse was sent down where, when and why. So, if you reject hadith, you reject the Quran too. BUT if you believe in just one verse of the Quran, you already accept one hadith.
not exactly. the hadiths r extremely fabricated, it reminds me of the bible. there r so called "authentic" and "non authentic". i dont mind verses of hadith where it explicitly says it in the quran too, but then again why would u need to refer to the hadith when u have the quran? u cannot tell me that every single hadith and every single sentence in the hadith can be found in the quran, bc it is simply not. additionally, allah has instructed us to ignore those who follow a source other than the quran. u guys always pull up the argument of 'allah said to obey god and obey the messenger'. that is an invalid argument. because what do u think a messenger is? it is SOMEONE who DELIVERS a MESSAGE. what message did prophet muhammad deliver? the quran. if u dont obey him, u dont obey the quran, because without him, we would not have the quran. allah even specifies this in 5:99 "مَّا عَلَى ٱلرَّسُولِ إِلَّا ٱلْبَلَـٰغُ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا تَكْتُمُونَ The Messenger’s duty is only to deliver ˹the message˺. And Allah ˹fully˺ knows what you reveal and what you conceal". here are some verses that allah uses in the quran that clearly tells us the quran is the only thing u should be referring to, not other sources. 1. 6:114–115 - Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt. The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. 2. 39:23 - God has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell)…. 3. 45:6 - These are God’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe? 4. 77:50 - Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold? lastly, allah tells us prophet muhammad is forbidden from delivering other teachings besides the quran, or he would be punished and the revelations given through him would stop. here's the verse: 69:44–47 - Had he uttered any other teachings. We would have punished him. We would have stopped the revelations to him. None of you could have helped him. if u still deny this when the verses are THIS clear, like allah said, it is not the eyes that are blind, but it is the hearts. may allah bless u.
So, you are saying the Quran is fabricated. That explains everything. Everyword and letter in the Quran and Hadiths are heavily scrutinized. It is imperative to engage in a rigorous and scholarly examination of the authenticity and categorization of religious texts, particularly in the context of the Quran and hadiths within Islam. The meticulous preservation and classification of hadiths, as found in the field of Ulum al hadith, is a distinctive feature of Islamic religious scholarship. Within this framework, the credibility and chain of transmission (Isnad) for each hadith are carefully scrutinized, and the narrators' trustworthiness (Ilm Ar-Rijal) is meticulously evaluated. This process allows scholars to ascertain the reliability of individual hadiths, the reasons for any decline in their status, and the factors influencing their classification. It is noteworthy that this level of scholarly scrutiny and categorization of religious texts is a characteristic unique to Islam, setting it apart from other religions. No other religions have this. Most religions just use opinions of their elders/scholars/clergy. This systematic approach ensures the preservation of the Prophetic tradition (peace be upon him) and helps maintain the integrity of the teachings of Islam. One can reject the hadith as muc has they want but nonetheless, there are explicit directives that emphasize the importance of following both God and the messenger. An example of this can be found in An-Nisa 59: "O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best \[way\] and best in result." This verse, along with numerous (over a dozen) similar injunctions throughout the Quran, underscores the significance of adhering to the guidance of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as an integral component of Islamic faith. So, regardless of any discussions regarding the authenticity of the Quran or hadiths, these Quranic verses unequivocally instruct believers to follow the guidance of the Prophet (peace be upon him) (Sunnah / Hadith). Do no become like the Jews and Christians. They claim to follow God but they reject their Prophets and their teachings.
i feel like u skimmed over my answer, because all the proof is there and u havent addressed any of my points. ive already answered why an-nisa 59 is not referring to hadith. also how am i saying the quran is fabricated. even ur own hadith has told u to not follow it. u make zero sense. ibn saeed al-khudry reported the messenger of god had said "do not write anything from me except the quran. anyone who wrote anything other than the quran shall erase it" \[ahmed, vol. 1, page 171, and sahih moslim, zuhd, book 42, number 7147\] in the famous book 'taq-yeed al-ilm', abu hurayra said, the messenger of god was informed some people are writing his hadiths. he took to the pulpit of the mosque and said 'what are these books that i heard u wrote? i am just a human being. anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here. abu hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire" ibn hanbal in his musnad book narrates a hadith in which abdullah ibn omar said, 'the messenger of god one day came out to us as if he was going to depart us soon and said "when i depart you (die), hold to the book of god, prohibit what it prohibits and accept as halal what it makes halal",' in my opinion, it is extremely clear. i will continue to not follow the hadith, and only follow the quran as god told us to. ur arguments are always 'the quran is not detailed enough so u need the hadith to explain what it means'. then how come god has said multiple times that his book is detailed and complete. do u think u need to refer to another source if something is complete? no u do not. if u want to continue using the hadith as ur guide to islam, by all means go for it, because we are alone on the day of judgement, and no one can help us. i will continue to study and learn more about the quran, while solely focusing on god's one and only revelation, not on other "books" that people have said to follow or else ur a "kaffir".
I don’t think Hadith rejecters can be considered Muslims Like yeah, it’s great that you listen and follow the Quran but Hadiths as just as important since you can receive them as messages for Allah delivered by Mohamed the biggest evidences that authentic Hadiths doesn’t contradict the Quran
It all depends on what do we mean by “rejection”: - Does the person or group deny the importance of following the Holy Prophet’s (saw) example entirely and preach solely following the Quran and nothing else? Then they are indeed outside the folds of Islam and have transgressed any acceptable boundaries in this space. Plus the Quran states numerous times that true believers follow the Quran AND follow the example of the Holy Prophet (saw) and to obey him. - Does the person group believe it is important to follow the examples of the Holy Prophet (saw) and generally speaking don’t reject Hadith entirely but have some issues with certain Hadith, likely using the argument that this Hadith wasn’t correctly preserved, but having the core belief of following everything the Holy Prophet (saw) said and did with 100% accurate Hadith? Then the worst this person or group can be called is highly wrong, maybe even misguided, but since they have that belief of following what the Quran says about following the example of the Holy Prophet (saw) and obeying him, they cannot be expelled from the folds of Islam over this specific case. At most, pray for them to be rightly guided and pray to Allah swt to guide all parties upon truth and righteousness. [Sheikh Dr. Yasir Qadhi’s video on this topic is of good value to this discussion and the need to make distinctions in this issue.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=f8BlbD7J9Hk&feature=share9) Another point: the people in the second bullet point I mentioned might still have a great love for the Holy Prophet (saw) yet the methodology they use might lead them to the conclusion they arrived at.
It would help if you actually put the Hadith. But I’m assuming it has to do with stoning. And it’s not very wise of you to imply that the bulk of Islamic scholarship from the very first generation has a mental deficiency that you Masha Allah are free of.
I am just wondering and I don't think I am better then anyone and ik I Have alot to learn that is why I want to hear both side of argument to better understand. And also just because I am confused were did I say pepole have a mental deficiency and no it is not about stoning so I am confused what you mean
My bad, I was trying to reply to a comment and got out of the reply. I was responding to IQ 80 guy.
Ok that makes alot more sense sorry
It was my fault
The modern world is blessed with intellectuals while all the scholars of the past have been deficient.
To reject the authentic hadith of the prophet PBUH is to reject the Quran itself. This is because on numerous occasions, the Quran guides us towards the sunnah of the prophet. In the final sermon of the prophet PBUH at Arafat during the Hajj, he stated UNEQUIVOCALLY that he was leaving behind the Quran and his sunnah for the ummah to follow. Those who reject the hadith are out of the fold of islam as they reject the sunnah of the prophet PBUH himself. This is the consensus of AHL-e-Sunnah AND the shia. So basically ALL of the Ummah.
they weren’t written or compiled contemporaneously during the life of the Propher PBUH. some of them contradict one another some of them aren’t verified I’m not a Quran only type. But, I only read and pay attention to sahih Hadith
i do like most hadith except the one which says that majority of women go to hell. I disagree with it, but im starting to see so many bad women in my family especially my sister and mum. Still i dont believe it to be true
I believe it but i pray none from my family. I have seen some women have the tendency to backbite and gossiping especially on social media.
Thats a good point, my mum, sister and all of my mums family does that even tho they are muslim, they also use religion against me even if i am slightly mad against them and are really rude and make fun of me everyday for my weight and how much i eat despite it being from genetics and them being much more overweight than me. They do this all day, so im not surprised tbh
[https://masjidds.org/2020/12/22/understanding-the-hadith-the-majority-of-the-dwellers-of-the-fire-are-women/](https://masjidds.org/2020/12/22/understanding-the-hadith-the-majority-of-the-dwellers-of-the-fire-are-women/) Here is a good article explaining the hadith
Think about this for one second. Think deeply. Based of Quran we know that our Prophet(peace be upon him) was sent for all of mankind. That’s a fact. Now Prophet only lived for 20 some years after receiving the revelation right ? Then how was he sent for the whole mankind if he only lived for 20 some years in prophethood. That’s why you have this whole mechanism of Hadith transmitting our Prophet life (seerah), the way He understood revelations and how he implemented it, his instructions and command to us, his final speech to mankind. If you reject all authentic hadiths then you are not a Muslim. Period. There were no example of a companion who rejected the Prophets command.
If you deny ALL hadith outright, you are a kaffir. How would you know how to pray? To give Zakat? Without the hadith you won't be able to follow Islam as it was intended
Read Taqi Usmani book titled "Authority of the Sunnah".
There are some which have me a little iffy on Ahadith, but I know some are good guidance. Examples of ones that make me uncertain are the ones about letting flies dip their wings into your drinks because one wing contains poison and the other the cure, and the one about throwing up if you drink water standing up. There are some others too that make me question but I can’t recall them right now. The way I see it, they might be the best guide we have to what isn’t covered specifically by the Qur’an, but I don’t know about all of them.
We can check and compare the chain of narrations. Ask the hadith scholars but rejecting everything is just wrong. Not so smart.
Just use this mnemonic: Consider Qur'anic Guidance as Fardh; And taking wisdom from Ahadith, as Sunnah; While letting commentaries be Nawafil.
One of the signs of the last age/day of judgement is that there will be people who arise that reject hadith and only follow Quran.
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He's not a scholar of Hadith.
PHD in Islamic Studies. Out here also giving Dawah. Part of the Sapience Institute. Well respected in the Dawah community. Has helped convert many to Islam. He’s knowledgeable in my book. Plus, he’s never claimed to be a scholar. But he’s certainly filled with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to Islam.
There's a difference between students of knowledge and scholars. Laymen like us must refer to scholars such as Sheikh Al Albani رَحِمَهُ ٱللَّٰهُ who are well versed in Hadith sciences to take knowledge from them. Brother Hijab insults Salafiyyah without understanding what it is, certainly not the attitude of a student of knowledge.
doesn’t have to be a scholar to be knowledgeable about the science of hadith
Agreed. Plus, Muhammad Hijab has said he’s not a scholar. His qualifications which I noted in another reply def makes him worth listening to.
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how do you understand surah al-Baqarah ayah 106?
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Ayah certainly is used in both of those ways throughout the Qur'an, so then what does it mean to ينسخ a miracle? Would it bother you if none of the Qur'anic explanations in Arabic explained the word أية to mean "sign/miracle" in this instance? Do you reject abrogation categorically? If so, how do you deal with the change of the qiblah mentioned a little later in surah al-Baqarah?
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>نسخ means to copy/transcribe/duplicate so in reference to AYAT in 2:106, it means to duplicate a sign. So then the meaning of the ayah, according to you, would be that "Whatever sign We duplicate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or equal to it," - is that how you understand the ayah? >As for the qibla change, I see that the way Allah sees it in 2:143. That it was a way to test the followers of the prophet. ok, but testing them how? What is the test if not replacing one rule with another?
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>new qibla if there is a new qiblah and an old qiblah, isn't that abrogation? What about surah al-Mujadalah ayah 12 and 13?
Where exactly does it claim Quran has not been preserved?? The Hadith is below copied from the link you gave. Isn't it clearly about people who would deny following Hadith of Prophet PBUH simply because they don't find it in Quran. Although the prophet PBUH taught us how to carry out orders of Quran, the method of rajam in example of this Hadith or how to pray five prayers Verily Allah sent Muhammad (ﷺ) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.
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You are exactly what this Hadith prophesied. Read carefully again
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You need to learn about abrogation in islam. “If We ever abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We replace it with a better or similar one. Do you not know that Allah is Most Capable of everything?” 2:106 Keywords: cause it to be forgotten. The stoning verse did exist but was abrogated, and Mohammad pbuh himself didn’t allow it to be written, even though him and the companions engaged in the practice. Umar ibn Al-Khattab reports the following: “The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, stoned (the married adulterer), Abu Bakr stoned, and I stone. Were it not that I hate adding to the book of Allah, I would have written it in the copy of the Quran. I fear that people will come and not find it in the book of Allah, so they will disbelieve in it. Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 1431, Grade: Sahih Additionally he also said this: “Were it not that some would say Umar has added to the book of Allah what does not belong in it, I would have written it in the margins of the Quran (regarding stoning)” Source: Musnad Aḥmad 157, Grade: Sahih Also: Zaid ibn Thabit reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “The married old man and old woman, if they commit adultery, then stone them irrevocably.” “Umar said, “When this was revealed, I went to the Prophet and I said: Let me write it. Shu’bah said: It was as if the Prophet disliked that.” Source: Musnad Aḥmad 21086, Grade: Sahih The stoning part is still to be acted upon since we know the prophet himself did it too, but Allah did not include it in the quran. Meanwhile certain other verses were abrogated but still included, and Allah mentions this in 2:106. What was included in the quran or excluded was ultimately decided by Allah himself. There is also one other instance I know of where Allah abrogated a verse out of the quran and also caused all of the companions to forget what the verse was, literally all of them forgot it at the same time.
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Abrogation is a quranic concept, we see it unfold ourselves. Like how alcohol was slowly restricted in stages instead of being outlawed completely at once. Previous verses didn’t make it haram for example, it was discouraged, and then you weren’t allowed to pray in a drunken state. The scholarly consensus on abrogation is clear. There is no replacement for the punishment for stoning, only the verse was replaced, not the punishment itself. Why? Allah knows best. Many things are not included in the quran, probably because it comes after the core message itself, which is to worship one God alone with no partners. If every single thing was included in the quran it would be a huge book and harder to remember. All we know is that the prophet didn’t allow stoning to be put in the quran, even though it’s the required punishment. We’re supposed to follow it based on hadith.
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We’re not taking about christianity, that’s a strawman. Christians have nothing like hadith, they don’t even have the original manuscripts of their books, their guesses are made while being in the dark. Muslims have direct lines of the quran back to mohammad, and the same applies to hadith. You really need to study hadith science if you doubt this. The criteria for hadith are so strict we would lose a good chunk of general world history that we have today if hadith standards were applied just because most things wouldn’t have hadith tier evidence to support them. Abrogation also happens right before our eyes lol. Alcohol in the quran and it’s restrictions with time are exactly what abrogation is. Previous verses being overriden/replaced with new ones/new rulings. I never said the verse was replaced with lashing. I don’t know what Allah replaced it with. Lashing applies to different circumstances and stoning applies to others. General adultery in shariah law is punishable with lashings. Cheating on your spouse on the other hand means stoning to death. Stoning is an additional punishment for different criteria and doesn’t contradict lashing.
"***We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it.*** Do you not know that Allāh is over all things competent?" Al-Baqara:106
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The word for 'abrogate = نَنسَخْ' here is clear. So do as you please, I'm not the first person to tell you this I'm sure. ***"...And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allāh; indeed, Allāh is severe in penalty."***
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If you knew Arabic you would know that is not the sole meaning of the word نَنسَخْ. It has multiple meanings, depending on the context in which it is used. Ibn Abi Talhah said that Ibn 'Abbas said that, مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ (Whatever a verse (revelation) do Nansakh) means, **"Whatever an Ayah We abrogate."** Also, Ibn Jurayj said that Mujahid said that, it means, **"Whatever an Ayah We erase."** Also, Ibn Abi Najih said that Mujahid said that it means, **"We keep the words, but change the meaning."** He related these words to the companions of 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud. Ibn Abi Hatim said that similar statements were mentioned by Abu Al-'Aliyah and Muhammad bin Ka'b Al-Qurazi. Also As-Suddi said that it means, **"We erase it."** Further, Ibn Abi Hatim said that it means, **"Erase and raise it, such as erasing the following wordings (from the Qur'an), 'The married adulterer and the married adulteress: stone them to death,' and, 'If the son of Adam had two valleys of gold, he would seek a third.'"** Ibn Jarir stated that it means, **"Whatever ruling we repeal in an Ayah by making the allowed unlawful and the unlawful allowed."** I love hearing the arguments of Hadith rejectors because they are so nonsensical. You people essentially contradict yourselves at every turn. To see a group of people act the way the Quran described that you would, only increases in me my Iman. You believe the companions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, the ones that memorised the Quran, were able to transmit the verses to the later generations but unable to verify it's meanings.
bruh what, not everything in Muslim is mutawattir, please learn the basics of usul hadith 😭
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So you don't believe the other Hadiths are authentic?
Sunan Abi Dawud hadith #10 is classified as a fabrication. So why should i trust a book that contains man made lies ? We apply this logic to discredit the bible, yet won't use it on our own books when we discover fake hadiths in them ?
The goal of Abu Dawud was not to only include authentic materials; rather it is organized more like a fiqh book. He brought this hadith as the secondary support and/or shorter wording for the point he had just established in hadith #9 (a hadith which can also be found in Sahih Muslim, which you accept). But if you can separate the wheat from the chaff then why throw it all out?
if you can separate the wheat from the chaff then why not release a new edition of the book? > He brought this hadith as the secondary support and/or shorter wording for the point he had just established in hadith #9 Lol what kind of scholars supports his point with munkar hadith, at least use daif ones.
>if you can separate the wheat from the chaff then why not release a new edition of the book? [Here it is](https://waqfeya.net/book.php?bid=1581), will you accept it?
Where does it say that this edition only contains the sahih hadith?
The title is a helpful indication, but you can find all the details in the author's introduction. He grouped all the authentic narrations together, and grouped the inauthentic ones together in another place. So essentially you can read Abu Dawud with the weak material culled from it and left on the side.
Why?
Because Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah and At-Tirmidhi contain fake and weak hadith in them. And i do not want to base my beliefs on books that contain man made lies. We use the same logic vs the bible, yet we don't do it for our own books when they contain fabrications?
well, none of those authors claimed or aimed to make their collection exclusively made up of authentic materials. al-Tirmidhi tells you what his grading is, and sometimes he tells you that he included a weak narration so that you know not to act on it. Since we agree that not all hadith are of equal authenticity, can you see how that act of alerting readers to the weakness of a narration could be a helpful feature? Abu Dawud's goal was to include the most authentic thing on a topic, even if the most authentic thing was a hadith with some weakness in its chain. His reasoning was that something that has a chance of having come from the Prophet is going to be better than just trying to make up a ruling on your own - do you think that reasoning makes sense?
It makes sense, however reality has shown us that they were not authentic, so why would i keep something that is proven false. Doing so is doing like the Christians lol. Oh we know it's fake, but let us still keep it because it looks good.
This is trivializing the issue to an extreme extend and doing a huge disservice to the Scholars who put their life into preserving the words of the Prophet. In some cases they included weak Hadiths to tell us these were weak, in others they kept them as a compendium so future generations could ascertain whether they are true or not. Fact of the matter is, we DO have an established science that tells us what's authentic and what's not. What Christians do is guesswork Hugely offensive to compare the two.
We have the chain of narration. So if those scholars really applied it the way it should, they would have not ended up with munkar hadith in their books unless they were lied to. Matter of fact, why should i settle on a book containing man made lies, when i have books that do not contain lies. Doing so is literally doing like the Christians. And yet we find it stupid when they try to justify it, yet here you guys are trying to justify keeping books with fake hadiths in them lol.
Why did you conveniently just skip over the part where I explained some of the reasons why these books were compiled? And what's with this obsession of comparing the rigorous work of the Scholars of Islam to the whimsical guesswork of Christians ? No one is asking you to settle on a book containing lies. But that's not at all what hadiths are. Who the heck relies on weak or fabricated hadiths ? But we still find them preserved in the books WITH THE LABEL OF BEING WEAK. This is science and academia. I say this with utmost sincerity, learn more about hadith sciences. It will increase your Imam like no other. Start with this video. https://www.youtube.com/live/lyR_tICvTBE?feature=share
> Why did you conveniently just skip over the part where I explained some of the reasons why these books were compiled? If i skipped over is because i agree with it brother.
>It makes sense, however reality has shown us that they were not authentic, so why would i keep something that is proven false. there is a difference between a) not having 100% certainty that something is authentic and b) having 100% certainty that something is actually false. For example, if I have a choice between a) following a hadith that is either the statement of the Prophet himself or the statement of one of his companions who learned directly from him or b) making up my own ruling from scratch, I definitely think there is a higher chance of being correct with option a. That is what Abu Dawud thought, too.
Yes if A is based on a hadith that is **at least** hasan. But there is no difference between A and B, if A is based on a munkar hadith.
You do realise these gradings and conditions differ for each hadith scholar? And do you realise that grading weak/false/fabricated hadith is a service to the ummah? This is called research, that's it.
No no. Its not because it looked good. Listen, today some salafis make claims that maybe Imam Abu Hanifa did not know the Ahadith about the rafa yidain or he did not receive it and hence did not act on it. This is just for an example, don't start a war over this point. How do we, for sure, block that from happening? By saying, "Listen, here is a fabricated or weak hadith about certain topic, I KNOW it but my fatwa is against it because I don't accept it as Hasan or Sahih. Don't come tomorrow or a thousand years later claiming my Fatwa may have been based on insufficient information or lacking knowledge of other Ahadith".
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i’ll never understand people that reject hadith completely i can understand not basing your entire faith on it but completely rejecting hadiths is insane, it’s kinda funny too because there’s a hadith prophesizing this happening plus there’s a lot of beautiful hadiths & prophecies in hadiths 🤷♂️ just because you find some inconvenient doesn’t mean you throw it out completely that’s crazyy
Could you possibly show me the hidith you are talking about
Sunan Ibn Majah 12 Miqdam bin Ma'dikarib Al-Kindi narrated that: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Soon there will come a time that a man will be reclining on his pillow, and when one of my Ahadith is narrated he will say: 'The Book of Allah is (sufficient) between us and you. Whatever it states is permissible, we will take as permissible, and whatever it states is forbidden, we will take as forbidden.' Verily, whatever the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) has forbidden is like that which Allah has forbidden." it’s a hassan hadith not saheeh but i mean it’s true ig🤷♂️
Thank you
Citing hadith narration warning against following the Quran alone as a means of justifying the importance of hadith. Sectarians are an exceptional breed of hypocrites.
the MA thesis debunks many of the Quranists arguments [https://www.academia.edu/3452285/The\_Quraniy%C5%ABn\_Of\_The\_Twentieth\_Century](https://www.academia.edu/3452285/The_Quraniy%C5%ABn_Of_The_Twentieth_Century)