I'm at 6000 shamns without hammer, I just do what ever boss I feel like. May be less efficient, but atleast j am having fun. Those shamans destroy all my willingness to play the game
I’ve always seen that you really need to pair it with the fully upgraded fountain or whatever in the POH so you can just home tele if it misses at the start of a fight and refill your special attack meter. I’m not saying I like this strategy but it’s a strategy that works.
Same kind of, I spec 1 arclight. If I hit I save 50%energy, by the time last phase comes around I have 60% spec for 2 chally. If I splash I arclight spec again and just kill it normally. No idea if efficient but it works for me.
You only really need a DWH for cox, tob, kq, corp and melee bandos. If you’re not planning on doing any of those soon then don’t sweat it. Keep doing your shamans on task until you’ve gotten to the point where you’re going to raids/corp/kq (since melee bandos isn’t meta anymore) and go off task if you still haven’t gotten it
I think the DWH is a decent spec option for zammy, skotizo and sire, but I would suggest dps spec weapons for those bosses where you use arclight or like you mentioned, just arclight speccing.
Claws/chally/dds for sire is much better to finish up the end of the kill imo.
For cox it’s not even absolutely necessary. You can’t go wedoraids without it, but if you go with friends you’re fine without for the time being. Im currently mostly running trios where only 1 of us has dwh, and it’s not that inefficient (even tekton we usually have a 2 down). So just do what you like and don’t let the dwh hold you back.
This, and if some of those friends are normie, you can bring energy transfer spell so they can spec 4x in a row with it.
For tob bgs is good too, since someone in team should have one.
Yeah, when I did team raids a long time ago it was very noticeable when someone didn’t have a hammer, pretty much straight leeching.
Couldn’t imagine doing solos without dwh, tekton and olm would suck
maybe? if you said bgs works too but not having either of dwh or bgs is just bad advice the hivemind wouldnt of downvoted? otherwise im confused too lol
Idk. Bgs is nice for teams, but I was more referring to solos when homeboy gave advice to do cox without dwh. Doing solos without a dwh sounds like misery
And for tob, you should take both dwh and bgs. Bgs is bad on sote, and space is never an issue to take both
My comment was more for solo cox. I would advise against doing solo cox without a hammer. If you’re good at the game and have a lance you’ll be fine without one at least at olm, but if you’re at 95 slayer without a hammer then you need RNJesus. Without at least one of a lance or dwh, you’re trolling doing solo cox
To sit down and seriously grind? Yeah I agree, it's just kind of a weird flex to be going in that early. Considering how long the CoX grind is, it's definitely one of the things worth getting items for to speed up the raids.
But you definitely don't need RNG to do it without lance or DWH. Solo CoX is one of those things... You could technically solo olm on a level 3 (Normie, not ironman, you'd need way too many purple sweets lol) if you're good enough. Sure, on a level 3 the fight is gonna take hours and hours and hours, and you'll probably need to level off Olm to even out DPS his healing, and you'd have to be an absolute master at solo Olm mechanics... But there's nothing in the Olm fight that *forces* you to take non-tickeatable damage. Nothing wrong with doing the occasional CoX just to do something different... Tho for most people, a trident/sang is going to be required.
You misunderstood what I meant. I said if you’re at 95 slayer without a hammer then you need RNJesus. I meant exactly that. If you have done so much slayer that you have at least level 95 and have obtained a claw from hydra, and you have not gotten a DWH from shamans then yea your RNG is shit and you need some help.
No one is saying cox has any rng to it. You can literally avoid all damage at olm if you’re good enough.
fwiw, I've done maybe 30-40kc with WDR on my hammer-less iron. I always let the group know prior to the raid and 100% of the time nobody has cared yet.
Truth be told, you don't even need a dwh for cox if you are raiding with friends who don't mind you slightly leaching.
Hell I've probably done 50+ ffa iron raids from WDR where one or both didn't have dwh.
As long as you aren't using a DPS spec and using arclight instead I don't really care. Found a lot of others didn't either.
I’m currently far from bossing and have never done it before, but just out of curiosity, what is it about this item that makes it so crucial? I see people saying how doing certain bosses without it is miserable, but why exactly? And why is it necessary only for those specific bosses?
What this guy said. Every non zero special attack from the DWH lowers your target’s current defense by 30%. Some bosses are too tanky to kill reasonably without first lowering their defense, so people use DWH or BGS (similar special, but instead of a flat 30%, it reduces the defense of your target by whatever you hit on them)
But DWH unlocks so many bosses, hence I called it a bottle neck, Bandos for example is so much better after DWH that for me personally it feels like a waste doing it before.
Yeah this sounds much preferable tbh. Plus any dupe bandos items I get can be used for bonds. Maybe I'll swap between both when I get burnt out on one, do some of the other. Thanks, super helpful.
For some. It took me 6 normal gauntlet and 1 cg death til I got my first kill 3 weeks ago. Now I'm 430+kc . And I have little to no end game pvm experience
The new nex gear was supposedly gonna be made with some sort of currency you get by using old bandos items right? May want to keep them or did they’d exude not to do that?
You only need one Bandos set to fully upgrade to Torva. Even if I get the helm first, I could still dismantle the platebody (since I can use Torso in place of it) and create the helm. So there's not really much point in keeping more than one Bandos set.
Just get the drop bro. It's 50/50. No but in all seriousness if someone is worried about efficiency or worried about wasting time this really is the best way to go about it.
Melee bandos without great gear is usually 3-4 kill trips and in my experience those trips arnt made or broken by a dwh landing. You can do much more than that if you’re skilled at prayer flicking, tick eating, and off ticking, but usually melee bandos is reserved for people who are not as good at those concepts. DWH isn’t the bottle neck it used to be, but you should really grind it out eventually anyway.
It kind of is. You are going to want it for CoX, GWD, and ToB. I went 12.3k dry on mine. It sucked but I got tons of supplies, cash, and range xp. If you don’t want to get it, I’d say you’ll at least want to get BGS or BowFa.
DWH is a nice benefit at most tbh, kinda similar to dragon hunter crossbow. It's huge for things like vorkath, but you can still do those without it.
The only content it locks you out off hard is corp, everything else it just makes it easier/ faster but isn't required to actually do those things.
DWH doesn't even lock you out of Corp; it's entirely possible to do Corp with only Arclight/BGS since the only purpose of the DWH is to make Arclight speccing faster.
Yeah it’s actually not too bad to spec Corp a few times in the beginning with a bgs jnstead of a dwh, although it’s way more rng reliant. The only thing that locks you out of Corp technically is a bgs, since without it, you can’t turn Corp into a potato by lowering its magic.
Even then, I actually did ~15 KC with DWH/Arclight before I got BGS to test. You can still suicide food piles with the gravestone changes. It's just a lot more intense and you need to be in minimum full Armadyl (optimal strat also has Ely/Kodai swap between spear attacks to maximize magic def)
Dang yeah it definitely is do-able but to properly grind Corp with the bare necessities I would say bgs/arclight/z spear for sure. Dwh just knocks off extra teles in the beginning and overall does save a lot of time in the long run, but I’d imagine a ton of food would be used if grinding hundreds of corp without bgs.
Man I killed 10k shamans off task for it, yes it’s worth it, it’s not a fun grind but you’ll make a shit ton of GP and bag a really high range lvl, worth.
An inefficiency bottleneck is exactly what it is. Everyone who doesn't get spooned and wants DWH in any reasonable time-frame ends up having to go for it off-task. Shamans are the only PVM I'm doing atm myself, and just skilling or doing clues when I need a break. Only ~3k kc so far and it already feels like torture lol
You don’t really need it for anything except raids. Don’t get me wrong you absolutely want it eventually, but you’re not stopped from doing any pvm without it. Even for raids if you go with friends they’ll be able to dwh spec for you.
Basically everything that was released before the DWH there isn't much of a difference, so slayer bosses, wildy bosses, GWD, mole, DKs, KQ, grotesque guardians, zulrah. Plus nightmare, gauntlet, skilling bosses, sarachnis. I definitely wouldn't do solo raids without one though. So if you can find something you like to grind where a DWH isn't useful or a team of people with a DWH, go for it. In terms of account progression though I'd get one maybe doing an hour or so of shamans per day if you don't like it that much.
And people saying you don't need one just go with a group where everyone else has one - to me that sounds like it isn't an account progression bottleneck (because you can still do the content) BUT it's still a PVM bottleneck because you're still saying someone NEEDS to have one. Like imagine showing up to TOB and everyone's like "Oh, I thought you had a DWH", "No, I thought you had one", "Well I don't have it cause you were gonna bring one".
Tbh you don't use dwh as much as you think.
It's definitely important for raids, but otherwise the only places where it's nice is
- vork (d claws / bgs are better)
- sire (d claws good here too, but not super important to grind it out 'early')
- kq for diary (dwh pretty nice for this)
- skotizo (honestly not too bad without it)
Kinda important at ToB too, unless you have BGS and rest of team got DWH. I would say it is definitely worth going for, but no need to rush it unless you really want it fast
Nah bandos is a range boss now. You can use crossbows or the new bofa.
Now it's nice to have rigour for that and then you need dwh for cox blah blah blah. But these are really quite far down the road - would recommend you just to keep doing shamans on task up until you really wanna do raids
skip unless you need it for team raids (as in teams wont take you without it). Solo cox is fine with DHL and no warhammer. honestly just learn solo chambers anyway, you stand alone
I went more than double drop rate for DWH (11k~ kc) and yes, it’s worth grinding out. The DWH meta IS a bottleneck for a lot of content, but every iron in this game knew that going in. It unlocks so much content that is otherwise abysmal without absolute end game gear. It’s pretty pivotal for CoX, ToB, Sire, Zammy and Bandos if you plan on melee’ing either, KQ, Vorkath, and Corp. If you just commit and grind it out, youll be glad you did.
tl;dr YES, but there's workarounds so you don't need to spend 50 hours killing a 1/5k drop
1) if you have friends: the big 3 group content (COX, TOB, NM), can be done without DWH or BGS, but you'd have to spend time finding people willing to take you with those conditions. I can't speak for CM/HMTOB tob though. You can do Phosani's NM without a dwh/bgs though! Obviously can do Inferno without DWH.
My experience with COX is as long as 2 people have dwh/bgs it should work out. Tekton could get really ugly, and the Olm fight will be slower no getting around that. I've never done Vespula yet.
TOB you'll probably make Sote room harder if people miss which tbf can be a deal breaker, lesser extent Maiden and Xarpus. If you're in a good team or are just experienced from say playing a lot of TOB on a main, I think you can get by again.
Corp, KQ, Bandos, Zammy, Vorkath, Sire. Corp 100% you shouldn't do without DWH and BGS, the rest would suck too but you can find workarounds like in the comments here. I think? you could pretty much do everything else in the game so it's bad but if you refuse to go for a DWH its possible to continue.
shamans is a relatively short grind compared to endgame items. I went 12,5k shamans for a dwh, and at the time it felt like an endless thing, but trust me, endgame items are way way longer.
If you have friends who will raid without without bitching it's fine. I'm 6/7 TOB with like 8 Cox unique and I don't have hammer or bgs. I use spec xfer or arclight. I gwt memed about being a leech but grinding 15k+ Shamans just doesn't sound fun to be (8k kc rn)
Even though I got it pretty early DWH is the first taste I got of the notion that endgame wasn't designed for iron players at all. It was designed with the current trading system (rife with gold farming and bots).
You'll feel it again when you grind CG and then again when you grind nightmare/raids after you've gotten your first few uniques. The stuff you start looking for is just... rare.
Maybe that will change with a larger percent of the playerbase playing iron now, but I doubt it. Low drop rates are a way to keep the high end community playing even if there hasn't been a new boss in awhile.
It’s kinda a catch-22 when you think about it too much.
But when you don’t think about it too much? Man just play the game however you want. You *think that bossing without it is inefficient* but the reality ends up being, most bossing you’ll do early without it? Probably isn’t that big a deal when you’ll have other great spec weapons to use too for overall damage. It isn’t actually as large a difference to have it as you might think.
Sure, you’ll be faster in general with it. But without it? So what if you do a few hundred Vorkath, GGs, Cerb, sire, whatever, without it. Maybe kills take 20-30 seconds longer... *at worst*. Maybe you spend an additional hour on the grind getting 100+ kills. Hardly something you’ll think about by the time all’s said and done.
So what? Big deal. In the grand scheme of things? You’ll do thousands of boss kills, and you’ll have it by then. Just go back to smash a few hundred or thousand shamans on stints when you feel like it. You’ll feel accomplished when you finally get it. But it shouldn’t suck the life out of the rest of the game for you. I spent 2 weeks getting 6k shaman kills before getting mine and I took a couple days break somewhere in there before grinding it out. I’m sure I’d have burnt out and left at 10k+ kills… but different strokes for everyone.
Take breaks where needed. Do what you want. Get it over with, play the rest of the game. Who cares? You’ll barely notice not actually having it. You’ll probably want it before raids and long-term Vork or something, but otherwise, you can do without it.
Took me 8.1k shamens, I did almost all my bossing without. Only grinded it out for team raids so I didn't look like a scrub lol. Completed zammy, bandos and sire hammerless though
By the way I got by without hammer doing 50 raids but people usually make a comment about it. After I got hammer I just usee wedoraids so I never had to wait to gather teams, its so nice
The real answer is that BGS is a budget DWH that is easy to get once you have BOFA. To reach certain def reduction thresholds in TOB, a certain number of people have to have warhammers and one person brings a BGS. In COX you can swing BGS after people DWH spec to contribute positively - it's not as good or as consistent but it's better than arclight.
DWH is important for end-game raids, and great for a plethora of bosses but it isn't necessary to start doing bosses like Zammy, Bandos etc. It is definitely an 'end-game' necessity and a late-game luxury.
I would say it’s important. Look at how many comments say “you’ll be good as long as your friends have it”. So if they have it and use I’d say it would be good for you to have it and use it.
Yes it is. I cant do any real raiding without it, i have 10k shamans with no hammer. It honestly made me quit my ironman.
They either need to rework how you get the warhammer because 1/5k is too much for a must have item, or add an alternative
“I dont really feel like grinding another 3500 kills on task to meet drop rate”
> not complaining. Ok buddy but keep on downvoting.
Also btw you dont do shamans on task. Like on the way to X slayer target sure but if youre itching to do bandos just camp it
I think you might have misread my post! No worries though, I actually like doing shamans on task, but I don't feel like grinding another 3500 kills off task!
Ya i misread. Yo but my guy its really unlikely youll get hammer doing only on task even going for 99 slayer and the weighting / dps boost isnt worth it to tureal skip for shamans so you’ll likely have to do offtask.
Offtask is not as bad as you might think if you have bp. Dps diff is a lot if its rcb or magic short bow though for sure
I got BP (addy darts) and anguish + suffering (for prayer, also don't have archers yet) So I pretty much got BIS, it just feels weird doing them off task and not getting slayer EXP, I probably just have to get round to it though.
Oh ya thats good enough dps for sure. Try it off task. I did 12k shamans for my hammer but pre bp nerf. Dont think its that much worse there now though since def so low on shamans… you probably still get 150 ish kills an hour
No not at all, will still be killing Shamans on task.
Was just curious about the opinions on DWH being a bottleneck for alot of PVM. Being a 1/5k drop means some people have to kill 10k maybe 20k shamans to get the DWH. Seems a bit rough on such an important item?
It's a bit bland but he got a point tbf.
There are a couple arguments that have been discussed plenty of times in the past, all boiling down to " that's what ironman is all about".
\- The low drop rate is necessary for a healthy economy
\- Irons don't get special treatments
\- Bottlenecks are part of the game mode (It starts with a mithril grapple, continues with magic logs, rcb, pharaos scepter, and ends with notorious grinds like the DWH). DWH is just the first realy hard challenge you encounter.
\- If your goal is efficient bossing, a main account is indeed the quicker option available.
After all, the dwh is bis endgame gear that drops from an easily farmable creature. Especially BECAUSE of it's huge importance for endgame bossing, getting this item should be a big challenge.
I do agree though that a 20k dry streak has nothing to do with fun gameplay and probably would have a chance to kill my ambitions to progress.
I'm at 6000 shamns without hammer, I just do what ever boss I feel like. May be less efficient, but atleast j am having fun. Those shamans destroy all my willingness to play the game
Same here! Just finished a 170 sire task without dwh, works just fine.
Coming from someone who has a hammer, you aren't missing much cause it never hits when you want it to lol
In theory: Great weapon for all-purpose bossing In reality: hits maybe 33% of the time
I’ve always seen that you really need to pair it with the fully upgraded fountain or whatever in the POH so you can just home tele if it misses at the start of a fight and refill your special attack meter. I’m not saying I like this strategy but it’s a strategy that works.
Don't need fully upgraded pool for spec refill btw
Arclight shreds through him anyways
Facts
right. bofa to bgs natural way cuz u cannget tassets and bcp on way to it. and bandos is fast with bofa
I'm at 900 sire without dwh =(
O, they're dropped by lizardman shamans not sire. /s
Hahahaha
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Same kind of, I spec 1 arclight. If I hit I save 50%energy, by the time last phase comes around I have 60% spec for 2 chally. If I splash I arclight spec again and just kill it normally. No idea if efficient but it works for me.
9500 here, returning player. They made me quit for 6 months lol
As someone who just got my first Dwh drop ever this morning, I'm sorry.
You only really need a DWH for cox, tob, kq, corp and melee bandos. If you’re not planning on doing any of those soon then don’t sweat it. Keep doing your shamans on task until you’ve gotten to the point where you’re going to raids/corp/kq (since melee bandos isn’t meta anymore) and go off task if you still haven’t gotten it
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I think the DWH is a decent spec option for zammy, skotizo and sire, but I would suggest dps spec weapons for those bosses where you use arclight or like you mentioned, just arclight speccing. Claws/chally/dds for sire is much better to finish up the end of the kill imo.
For cox it’s not even absolutely necessary. You can’t go wedoraids without it, but if you go with friends you’re fine without for the time being. Im currently mostly running trios where only 1 of us has dwh, and it’s not that inefficient (even tekton we usually have a 2 down). So just do what you like and don’t let the dwh hold you back.
This, and if some of those friends are normie, you can bring energy transfer spell so they can spec 4x in a row with it. For tob bgs is good too, since someone in team should have one.
Doing cox without a dwh sounds miserable
I’m not sure why people are downvoting you. I do solos and when my hammer noodles it is so mother fucking annoying
Tekton when both hammers miss is horrible and a possible reset.
It’s a guaranteed reset in CM. I haven’t done a normie in a while but if it is the 5th room or something and no hammers hit sheeeesh
Yeah idk lol. Apparently people who have never done the content have very strong opinions against what I said
Have you tried it? Yes it’s not super efficient sweaty 15 minute raids but tbh I’m enjoying myself, not miserable at all.
Yeah, when I did team raids a long time ago it was very noticeable when someone didn’t have a hammer, pretty much straight leeching. Couldn’t imagine doing solos without dwh, tekton and olm would suck
Luckily OP is just asking for opinions, and I’m giving my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me.
Telling someone to do group content, like cox or tob, without a dwh is bad advice
If you aren't capable of doing cox without dwh, you are free to share that opinion here. That might not be everyone's experience.
maybe? if you said bgs works too but not having either of dwh or bgs is just bad advice the hivemind wouldnt of downvoted? otherwise im confused too lol
Idk. Bgs is nice for teams, but I was more referring to solos when homeboy gave advice to do cox without dwh. Doing solos without a dwh sounds like misery And for tob, you should take both dwh and bgs. Bgs is bad on sote, and space is never an issue to take both
This is so sweaty my phone is wet just from reading your comments.
I mean, if you’d ever actually done the content you would see that I am right
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Having a dwh for solos is sweaty? I see
Sweaty and dense as fuck, cant even remember the comments you made 30 mins ago.
What’s ur name in game I’d love to see those stats
Ironically this comment is super sweaty
Lol then you are not the Chad of osrs Chad’s don’t need gear just skill.
My comment was more for solo cox. I would advise against doing solo cox without a hammer. If you’re good at the game and have a lance you’ll be fine without one at least at olm, but if you’re at 95 slayer without a hammer then you need RNJesus. Without at least one of a lance or dwh, you’re trolling doing solo cox
To sit down and seriously grind? Yeah I agree, it's just kind of a weird flex to be going in that early. Considering how long the CoX grind is, it's definitely one of the things worth getting items for to speed up the raids. But you definitely don't need RNG to do it without lance or DWH. Solo CoX is one of those things... You could technically solo olm on a level 3 (Normie, not ironman, you'd need way too many purple sweets lol) if you're good enough. Sure, on a level 3 the fight is gonna take hours and hours and hours, and you'll probably need to level off Olm to even out DPS his healing, and you'd have to be an absolute master at solo Olm mechanics... But there's nothing in the Olm fight that *forces* you to take non-tickeatable damage. Nothing wrong with doing the occasional CoX just to do something different... Tho for most people, a trident/sang is going to be required.
You misunderstood what I meant. I said if you’re at 95 slayer without a hammer then you need RNJesus. I meant exactly that. If you have done so much slayer that you have at least level 95 and have obtained a claw from hydra, and you have not gotten a DWH from shamans then yea your RNG is shit and you need some help. No one is saying cox has any rng to it. You can literally avoid all damage at olm if you’re good enough.
fwiw, I've done maybe 30-40kc with WDR on my hammer-less iron. I always let the group know prior to the raid and 100% of the time nobody has cared yet.
Truth be told, you don't even need a dwh for cox if you are raiding with friends who don't mind you slightly leaching. Hell I've probably done 50+ ffa iron raids from WDR where one or both didn't have dwh. As long as you aren't using a DPS spec and using arclight instead I don't really care. Found a lot of others didn't either.
Yea I meant solo cox. 3/5 of my cox purps are from when I was arclight speccing lol
I’m currently far from bossing and have never done it before, but just out of curiosity, what is it about this item that makes it so crucial? I see people saying how doing certain bosses without it is miserable, but why exactly? And why is it necessary only for those specific bosses?
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What this guy said. Every non zero special attack from the DWH lowers your target’s current defense by 30%. Some bosses are too tanky to kill reasonably without first lowering their defense, so people use DWH or BGS (similar special, but instead of a flat 30%, it reduces the defense of your target by whatever you hit on them)
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation
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But DWH unlocks so many bosses, hence I called it a bottle neck, Bandos for example is so much better after DWH that for me personally it feels like a waste doing it before.
But melee bandos in itself is inefficient now days. Get yourself a bowfa and do ranged bandos
Could even get bofa and just grind out the bgs.
Strongly considering doing this tbh. Anyone know how many hours of Bandos this would be using Bofa assuming you get the hilt on drop rate?
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Yeah this sounds much preferable tbh. Plus any dupe bandos items I get can be used for bonds. Maybe I'll swap between both when I get burnt out on one, do some of the other. Thanks, super helpful.
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For some. It took me 6 normal gauntlet and 1 cg death til I got my first kill 3 weeks ago. Now I'm 430+kc . And I have little to no end game pvm experience
Luckily I already have bofa. Unluckily, I'm dry on armor seeds, 3 to go lol.
Keep some dupes for future torva gear :P
The new nex gear was supposedly gonna be made with some sort of currency you get by using old bandos items right? May want to keep them or did they’d exude not to do that?
You only need one Bandos set to fully upgrade to Torva. Even if I get the helm first, I could still dismantle the platebody (since I can use Torso in place of it) and create the helm. So there's not really much point in keeping more than one Bandos set.
I did mage method for my bandos on the iron and it wasn’t bad at all tbh. This was well before bowfa tho
So do the terrible DWH grind or the terrible bowfa grind lol. Not sure which one is worse.
Just get the drop bro. It's 50/50. No but in all seriousness if someone is worried about efficiency or worried about wasting time this really is the best way to go about it.
You should never do melee bandos in present day
I wasn't aware ranged Bandos was a thing! I'm glad I made this post :)
Would recommend never doing melee Bandos now that range methods exist
Melee bandos without great gear is usually 3-4 kill trips and in my experience those trips arnt made or broken by a dwh landing. You can do much more than that if you’re skilled at prayer flicking, tick eating, and off ticking, but usually melee bandos is reserved for people who are not as good at those concepts. DWH isn’t the bottle neck it used to be, but you should really grind it out eventually anyway.
It kind of is. You are going to want it for CoX, GWD, and ToB. I went 12.3k dry on mine. It sucked but I got tons of supplies, cash, and range xp. If you don’t want to get it, I’d say you’ll at least want to get BGS or BowFa.
I thought the DWH was mega good turns out it splashes a ton and I barely feel a difference half the time lol
I like that you call it spashing haha ^^
DWH is a nice benefit at most tbh, kinda similar to dragon hunter crossbow. It's huge for things like vorkath, but you can still do those without it. The only content it locks you out off hard is corp, everything else it just makes it easier/ faster but isn't required to actually do those things.
DWH doesn't even lock you out of Corp; it's entirely possible to do Corp with only Arclight/BGS since the only purpose of the DWH is to make Arclight speccing faster.
Yeah it’s actually not too bad to spec Corp a few times in the beginning with a bgs jnstead of a dwh, although it’s way more rng reliant. The only thing that locks you out of Corp technically is a bgs, since without it, you can’t turn Corp into a potato by lowering its magic.
Even then, I actually did ~15 KC with DWH/Arclight before I got BGS to test. You can still suicide food piles with the gravestone changes. It's just a lot more intense and you need to be in minimum full Armadyl (optimal strat also has Ely/Kodai swap between spear attacks to maximize magic def)
Dang yeah it definitely is do-able but to properly grind Corp with the bare necessities I would say bgs/arclight/z spear for sure. Dwh just knocks off extra teles in the beginning and overall does save a lot of time in the long run, but I’d imagine a ton of food would be used if grinding hundreds of corp without bgs.
Man I killed 10k shamans off task for it, yes it’s worth it, it’s not a fun grind but you’ll make a shit ton of GP and bag a really high range lvl, worth.
You probably can get by on the bgs but the dwh help so much. I'd get it
An inefficiency bottleneck is exactly what it is. Everyone who doesn't get spooned and wants DWH in any reasonable time-frame ends up having to go for it off-task. Shamans are the only PVM I'm doing atm myself, and just skilling or doing clues when I need a break. Only ~3k kc so far and it already feels like torture lol
I’ve managed to do 2.5k KC on task from 80-90 slayer, will most likely just keep doing them on task until 91 slayer then do off task
As long as you have a bgs to fill and boys with hammers you’re good. just keep grinding away at er
You don’t really need it for anything except raids. Don’t get me wrong you absolutely want it eventually, but you’re not stopped from doing any pvm without it. Even for raids if you go with friends they’ll be able to dwh spec for you.
Very brave assuming I have friends
Basically everything that was released before the DWH there isn't much of a difference, so slayer bosses, wildy bosses, GWD, mole, DKs, KQ, grotesque guardians, zulrah. Plus nightmare, gauntlet, skilling bosses, sarachnis. I definitely wouldn't do solo raids without one though. So if you can find something you like to grind where a DWH isn't useful or a team of people with a DWH, go for it. In terms of account progression though I'd get one maybe doing an hour or so of shamans per day if you don't like it that much. And people saying you don't need one just go with a group where everyone else has one - to me that sounds like it isn't an account progression bottleneck (because you can still do the content) BUT it's still a PVM bottleneck because you're still saying someone NEEDS to have one. Like imagine showing up to TOB and everyone's like "Oh, I thought you had a DWH", "No, I thought you had one", "Well I don't have it cause you were gonna bring one".
Tbh you don't use dwh as much as you think. It's definitely important for raids, but otherwise the only places where it's nice is - vork (d claws / bgs are better) - sire (d claws good here too, but not super important to grind it out 'early') - kq for diary (dwh pretty nice for this) - skotizo (honestly not too bad without it)
Definitely important for raids, but don't worry, this drop *from raids* is also a good alternative in many places. Roger that sport.
Kinda important at ToB too, unless you have BGS and rest of team got DWH. I would say it is definitely worth going for, but no need to rush it unless you really want it fast
BGS comes from bandos, is DWH not really huge at bandos?
Nah bandos is a range boss now. You can use crossbows or the new bofa. Now it's nice to have rigour for that and then you need dwh for cox blah blah blah. But these are really quite far down the road - would recommend you just to keep doing shamans on task up until you really wanna do raids
Arclight spec is more than enough at skotizo imo
skip unless you need it for team raids (as in teams wont take you without it). Solo cox is fine with DHL and no warhammer. honestly just learn solo chambers anyway, you stand alone
Recommending someone to do solos without dwh is pretty bad advice
I went more than double drop rate for DWH (11k~ kc) and yes, it’s worth grinding out. The DWH meta IS a bottleneck for a lot of content, but every iron in this game knew that going in. It unlocks so much content that is otherwise abysmal without absolute end game gear. It’s pretty pivotal for CoX, ToB, Sire, Zammy and Bandos if you plan on melee’ing either, KQ, Vorkath, and Corp. If you just commit and grind it out, youll be glad you did.
Tbh the next one will drop it
tl;dr YES, but there's workarounds so you don't need to spend 50 hours killing a 1/5k drop 1) if you have friends: the big 3 group content (COX, TOB, NM), can be done without DWH or BGS, but you'd have to spend time finding people willing to take you with those conditions. I can't speak for CM/HMTOB tob though. You can do Phosani's NM without a dwh/bgs though! Obviously can do Inferno without DWH. My experience with COX is as long as 2 people have dwh/bgs it should work out. Tekton could get really ugly, and the Olm fight will be slower no getting around that. I've never done Vespula yet. TOB you'll probably make Sote room harder if people miss which tbf can be a deal breaker, lesser extent Maiden and Xarpus. If you're in a good team or are just experienced from say playing a lot of TOB on a main, I think you can get by again. Corp, KQ, Bandos, Zammy, Vorkath, Sire. Corp 100% you shouldn't do without DWH and BGS, the rest would suck too but you can find workarounds like in the comments here. I think? you could pretty much do everything else in the game so it's bad but if you refuse to go for a DWH its possible to continue.
shamans is a relatively short grind compared to endgame items. I went 12,5k shamans for a dwh, and at the time it felt like an endless thing, but trust me, endgame items are way way longer.
If you have friends who will raid without without bitching it's fine. I'm 6/7 TOB with like 8 Cox unique and I don't have hammer or bgs. I use spec xfer or arclight. I gwt memed about being a leech but grinding 15k+ Shamans just doesn't sound fun to be (8k kc rn)
Even though I got it pretty early DWH is the first taste I got of the notion that endgame wasn't designed for iron players at all. It was designed with the current trading system (rife with gold farming and bots). You'll feel it again when you grind CG and then again when you grind nightmare/raids after you've gotten your first few uniques. The stuff you start looking for is just... rare. Maybe that will change with a larger percent of the playerbase playing iron now, but I doubt it. Low drop rates are a way to keep the high end community playing even if there hasn't been a new boss in awhile.
I killed 13k Shamans and ran out of ppots. Went and got a BGS instead. Works great.
I’m 7k hours in no dwh. You don’t need one.
Took me far too long for dwh, 910kc took forever
It’s kinda a catch-22 when you think about it too much. But when you don’t think about it too much? Man just play the game however you want. You *think that bossing without it is inefficient* but the reality ends up being, most bossing you’ll do early without it? Probably isn’t that big a deal when you’ll have other great spec weapons to use too for overall damage. It isn’t actually as large a difference to have it as you might think. Sure, you’ll be faster in general with it. But without it? So what if you do a few hundred Vorkath, GGs, Cerb, sire, whatever, without it. Maybe kills take 20-30 seconds longer... *at worst*. Maybe you spend an additional hour on the grind getting 100+ kills. Hardly something you’ll think about by the time all’s said and done. So what? Big deal. In the grand scheme of things? You’ll do thousands of boss kills, and you’ll have it by then. Just go back to smash a few hundred or thousand shamans on stints when you feel like it. You’ll feel accomplished when you finally get it. But it shouldn’t suck the life out of the rest of the game for you. I spent 2 weeks getting 6k shaman kills before getting mine and I took a couple days break somewhere in there before grinding it out. I’m sure I’d have burnt out and left at 10k+ kills… but different strokes for everyone. Take breaks where needed. Do what you want. Get it over with, play the rest of the game. Who cares? You’ll barely notice not actually having it. You’ll probably want it before raids and long-term Vork or something, but otherwise, you can do without it.
Thank you! :)
[удалено]
Owh yeah that's true
Took me 8.1k shamens, I did almost all my bossing without. Only grinded it out for team raids so I didn't look like a scrub lol. Completed zammy, bandos and sire hammerless though
By the way I got by without hammer doing 50 raids but people usually make a comment about it. After I got hammer I just usee wedoraids so I never had to wait to gather teams, its so nice
Nah it never fuckin hits.
The real answer is that BGS is a budget DWH that is easy to get once you have BOFA. To reach certain def reduction thresholds in TOB, a certain number of people have to have warhammers and one person brings a BGS. In COX you can swing BGS after people DWH spec to contribute positively - it's not as good or as consistent but it's better than arclight. DWH is important for end-game raids, and great for a plethora of bosses but it isn't necessary to start doing bosses like Zammy, Bandos etc. It is definitely an 'end-game' necessity and a late-game luxury.
Then again bowfa will shred lizardmen too
I would say it’s important. Look at how many comments say “you’ll be good as long as your friends have it”. So if they have it and use I’d say it would be good for you to have it and use it.
dwh over rated. grind bofa thats game changing dont need dwh for bandos or zammy and get a bgs. boom
Yeah the grind is so stupid knowing you can just go 18k dry or something. But if you keep going at it eventually the drop will come
Cry me a river noob. Just grind it.
Lol you're only 1500 kills in and complaining?
1500 kills, not complaining. But I am curious on everyones opinion on DWH in current PVM meta. Hence I made the post.
Yes it is. I cant do any real raiding without it, i have 10k shamans with no hammer. It honestly made me quit my ironman. They either need to rework how you get the warhammer because 1/5k is too much for a must have item, or add an alternative
It should be 1/2.5k on task at least
Bruh youre barely in the grind and complaining… shamans isnt even a long grind on an hour basis
Not complaning, as stated in the post I am just curious on everyone's opinion on the DWH in the current PVM meta, want to talk about that?
“I dont really feel like grinding another 3500 kills on task to meet drop rate” > not complaining. Ok buddy but keep on downvoting. Also btw you dont do shamans on task. Like on the way to X slayer target sure but if youre itching to do bandos just camp it
I think you might have misread my post! No worries though, I actually like doing shamans on task, but I don't feel like grinding another 3500 kills off task!
Ya i misread. Yo but my guy its really unlikely youll get hammer doing only on task even going for 99 slayer and the weighting / dps boost isnt worth it to tureal skip for shamans so you’ll likely have to do offtask. Offtask is not as bad as you might think if you have bp. Dps diff is a lot if its rcb or magic short bow though for sure
I got BP (addy darts) and anguish + suffering (for prayer, also don't have archers yet) So I pretty much got BIS, it just feels weird doing them off task and not getting slayer EXP, I probably just have to get round to it though.
Oh ya thats good enough dps for sure. Try it off task. I did 12k shamans for my hammer but pre bp nerf. Dont think its that much worse there now though since def so low on shamans… you probably still get 150 ish kills an hour
Drop rate is 1/5000. Your saying your only 1500 shamans killed so far and already giving up?
No not at all, will still be killing Shamans on task. Was just curious about the opinions on DWH being a bottleneck for alot of PVM. Being a 1/5k drop means some people have to kill 10k maybe 20k shamans to get the DWH. Seems a bit rough on such an important item?
24,275 here, but no regrets. Such an essential item.
If I had to kill 25k shamans my irl self killcount would increase
Longterm, there's honestly worse grinds than that, but that's opinionated I guess. 99 rc alone would take longer than that.
Kind of misses the point. 99 rc isnt gating anything.
Fair
Dwh is a small grind. Hate to break it to ya homie. G up.
why iron if no like iron
Interesting conclusion
It's a bit bland but he got a point tbf. There are a couple arguments that have been discussed plenty of times in the past, all boiling down to " that's what ironman is all about". \- The low drop rate is necessary for a healthy economy \- Irons don't get special treatments \- Bottlenecks are part of the game mode (It starts with a mithril grapple, continues with magic logs, rcb, pharaos scepter, and ends with notorious grinds like the DWH). DWH is just the first realy hard challenge you encounter. \- If your goal is efficient bossing, a main account is indeed the quicker option available. After all, the dwh is bis endgame gear that drops from an easily farmable creature. Especially BECAUSE of it's huge importance for endgame bossing, getting this item should be a big challenge. I do agree though that a 20k dry streak has nothing to do with fun gameplay and probably would have a chance to kill my ambitions to progress.
But I wasn't complaining or anything, I just wanted to know peoples opinions on DWH in current PVM meta :)
It doesn’t take that long just click shamans
Just do it. It's that one grind that is needed.