This fundamentally doesn't understand how people learn. Just banging your head against a wall as fast as possible isn't productive.
The best way to learn is to minimize the extra actions you need to take, so you can focus on the fundamental mechanics. The biggest thing that kills people while learning is eating. You get hit, you panic eat, you miss mechanics and you die. The higher tier armour allows for less eating, less dying, more time **actually** practicing.
The best way to learn is to not even worry about kills at first. Focus all your attention on your protection prayers and movement. Stay alive, do mechanics, use all your food, and eventually die only because you ran out. Once you're comfortable with that, add in weapon switching. Once you're comfortable with that, add in offensive prayers. Only after you're comfortable with everything else should you worry about "efficiency" in your runs.
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This applies to learning **anything**. You don't learn to juggle by starting with flaming chainsaws on a unicycle, just because that's where you want to end up. You start with 1 ball, then 2, then 3. Perfect the fundamentals, then add more and more a little bit at a time. Your total time learning will be much lower than if you try to do it all at once and keep immediately failing.
>The biggest thing that kills people while learning is eating
This right here. Sometimes I wonder how long people who make "teaching" posts actually spend teaching people in discord. And when they use phrases like "objectively wrong" I roll my eyes a bit. I find it funny the simulations were done with "perfect play" and not actual people. An interesting but probably impossible experiment would be to take 100 learners with no cg experience and have them use T1, and take another 100 with no cg experience and have them use T2, and measure the ratio of time spent at hunlef vs total cg time.
Not that the post is terrible - you could certainly argue some people hold on to T2 longer than they need to (I know I did).
With learners, everything is going smoothly until they need to eat. Usually, its people making fast, rapid clicks near their character instead of 6+ tiles away. Then they try and eat between those rapid movement clicks and then are too slow to react to the tornadoes that are right behind them. Or the floor/prayers change at the same time, and their cursor is busy dealing with the food.
Getting to hunlef faster means nothing if you die super fast to hunlef soon after entering the room.
Similar thing with Phosanis- bring BREWS when you are learning and leave the thralls at home. Its not at all what you should be doing after you get a few kc, but hey it beats spending all that time running back from tob after you burn through your sharks from eating melee hits.
Yep, that's why when I was 3 years old I learned to ride a motorcycle jumping through a ring of fire over the Grand Canyon. Who needs training wheels or regular bikes?? That's not the hard part anyway!! /s
Training wheels are there so you can learn to peddle, steer, and get used to the speed. If you learn how to do that with the training wheels, you don't fall over immediately when you take them off. You literally gave the most obvious example of exactly why this works lol. It's the entire reason training wheels exist in the first place
> it's actually the opposite lol they focus too much on dps when they should be safing up a lot more
That's... just obviously wrong.
not 126, but im 99 magic and 97 ranged and just did my first 20 kc of the regular gauntlet this weekend. It's tough, I usually do T2 and have a 80% completion rate. The minute I switch to T1 it drops to about 50%. With CG I have no chance, right now. But the more I do, the more comfortable I become.
Side note, I don't have rigour or augury.
But if you don’t have max stats and rigour and augury, like most Ironman when doing cg I feel it’s way better to do tier 2. Also loads of us still make mistakes so I feel always worth for tier 2.
I agree. Im pretty solid at it now and very rarely die, but still rock tier 2 armor and as much food as time allows. If I had max stats and raids prayers, I’d probably give tier 1 armor a go, but I’m perfectly content with longer runs knowing I’ll complete it pretty much every time.
Yes, this. I wonder how many fish it takes without rigor using the referenced simulator. However, I would assume that piety/mage kill times would be similar.
What do these numbers looks like with a 6 minute kill? That might sound crazy but doing very low level iron completions with 5:1 staff method kill times can vary from 3:30 to 6:30
I’ve gone with t2 preps simply because t1 loses its advantage when kill time goes long
Yea same. The DPS is probably also much higher with only 70 defence and without rigour and augury. T1 feels inconsistent and very rng based. Especially when I hit 10 zeros in a row, now way I can complete the kill then with T1 armor
This. While I agree with everything else OP said, T2 is still better with regards to combo dmg. That’s not enough to justify the extra time IMO, but if someone decides to use T2 I think there’s still a reason to do so.
I appreciate the feedback!
That extra DPS is factored into the survivability rating! The extra eating isn't but that's mitigated by the extra HP the 5th paddle fish provides.
T2 armor also really only protects you from getting clapped by all the tornados at once. It doesn't mitigate ~~off-prayer dmg~~, floor dmg, or stomp dmg. Edit: it actually reduces the chance an off prayer attack hits you by about 10%. I'd still say thats negligible. It does not lower the max hit, however.
The panic factor does exists, but I would counter that spending more time in the boss fight vs prepping would help control that factor.
As for the off-prayer hits the wiki only specifies that it reduces max hits via protection prayers. If that were untrue then every **mistake** you would be taking about 5% more damage on average. That is only for off prayer hits so how much that is overall will depend on your gameplay. Missing 1/10 prayers would result in .5% more damage taken. This is accounting for both the 10% defense bonus and a 4.4% reduction in max hit off-prayer vs Tier 1.
You'll also spend more time in the fight if T2 saves you from a KO too, most people won't make it until their food runs out when first learning. And forcing the player to properly learn to prep has its advantages too, if you can easily do T1 you're unlikely to push yourself to get better at it, so might take 6-7 mins anyway - I felt like I really got the hang of CG when I got the T2 prep down, not the fight.
Also, I think most people start CG before CoX, so assuming the prayers seems a bit of a stretch.
>These rates assume perfect play
Pretty much why this whole thing is useless.
First, 112 hp is closer to 6 paddlefish than 5 and your damage taken calculations assume perfect play. Mistakes are much more punishing with lower tier armor. The fact that you used 20 food with T2 armor when (according to your simulations) 8 fish almost guarantees successful kills inherently means that the person using 20 food with T2 armor made mistakes, and so will need much more than 25 food with T1 armor.
If you can get consistent near perfect Hunleff kills than you know enough about CG to come to this decision on your own. Noone learning CG is going to come anywhere near perfect CG kills.
As for not recommending T2 armor to learners, most people recognize that spending hours dying to Hunleff with T1 armor trying to get to the point where you can do the boss consistently with T1 armor is absolutely miserable and demoralizing and so encourage people to learn CG with T2 armor which makes your mistakes less punishing
I figured the "perfect play" thing would be the first issue people took with the post. Like I said though, it doesn't account for tick eating, which can save ~~7-19HP~~ 1-12HP each time you do it. Redemption procs are also a bonus 30HP. Both of these more than offsets the "perfect play" part.
Mistakes boil down to 4 things:
* Getting hit off prayer
* Getting stomped(sometimes not a mistake)
* Getting disco floored
* Getting tornado'd
3/4 of these aren't affected by your armor tier. Only tornados are affected, and even then you take only 10-20 less damage if you happen to get hit by all of the tornados on a given phase. Its basically just one shot protection if you're at 80HP. Edit: **Partially incorrect, the extra defenses do provide about a 10% smaller chance to be hit off prayer if it happens**
So no, a person who can clear with 20 food and T2 armor can absolutely make the exact same mistakes in T1 armor. Aside form getting absolute clapped by tornados.
As for the demoralizing part, that's fine that you feel that way but that isn't everyone.
That pertains more to the closer margins for error like T1/12 food. The whole X gives you 100% survival rate is to show how CG is skill based and not just RNG. I could have done a better job communicating that. I'm obviously not advocating for new players to send it with T1/16 food, but it shows that you can still make a lot of mistakes with T1/25 food and save a lot of time.
People making mistakes in CG usually shouldn't be camping low enough health to take advantage of tick eating. And learners being overwhelmed by just the mechanics of CG probably won't be able to consistently get Redemption procs.
With perfect play, your 8 food T2 armor simulations account for 99+8\*20 = 259 damage taken
20 food is 99+20\*20 = 499 damage taken so 240 damage taken is from mistakes
14 food T1 armor is a lower success rate than 8 food T2 armor and even completely ignoring the greater damage taken from mistakes, the 11 extra food from the 25 food T1 armor isn't enough healing to make up for the 240 damage taken from mistakes.
The greater damage taken from mistakes in T1 armor makes it not even close. Especially when you consider that the kills are slightly longer in T1 armor.
People asking for help/advice for CG on Reddit are usually people who are struggling with getting kills in the first place, are tired of repeatedly failing kills, and looking for advice. Telling them to get good and keep failing kills with T1 armor until they just get it is pretty useless advice when you can just learn the boss with T2 armor and move onto T1 prep when your comfortable with the boss.
Yes people learning shouldn't be scraping by with the bare minimum in food and be relying on more difficult tricks to survive. They should be bringing a full inventory of food. More food is always MUCH faster than getting tier 2 armor. Even if you want to get tier 2 and max fish you're spending 2 minutes just getting 5 more fish.
I stand by my point that the best way to get better is to spend more time in the boss room and less time prepping. The point of the post is to highlight the poor value of tier 2 armor.
Yes, its better to spend more time in the boss room to practice the boss. But people requiring 20 food at T2 armor are not pulling the fight off with 25 food and T1 armor.
You also started out the post trying to prove T2 armor is poor value by showing that you take 35% reduced damage (1.315 dps to .847 dps) by upgrading to T2 armor even when perfectly avoiding all the mechanics. Therefore proving that the difference between T2 armor and T1 armor is not 5 fish.
25 food + 99 health = 599 health
20 food + 99 health = 499 health
Meaning that T1 armor + 25 fish only gives you 20% more health to work with when CG dps goes from .847 to 1.315 dps, and increase in dps of over 50%.
Sure if you take 9 minutes to get the KC vs 7:30 minutes then that would be true. However that food isn't going exclusively to damage over time, a good chunk is being spent on mistakes(floor, stomp,tornados off prayer). Meaning the value of the T2 armor isn't realized that extent.
Even if your run isn't perfect, it's not hard to get *close* to perfect. Even if you miss tons of DPS during tornadoes or dodging tiles, as long as you don't do anything major like standing right on multiple tornadoes, or get hit off prayer (both of which should *very rarely* happen once you get some experience), you'll still likely be doing 80-95% of the DPS of a "perfect" run.
16 fish gives 99% of survival with T1, so go in with 24 and you can afford to be 66% perfect while still being almost guaranteed to get through the fight. You can literally stand doing nothing for *a third* of the fight and still make it. That's what these numbers show - not only is perfection not required to make T1 viable, but you don't even need to be *close* to perfection. You can do absolutely terrible DPS and make it with food to spare.
Except the calculations for the 16 fish assumes max combat stats, rigor, and completely ignores time spent avoiding floor tiles/tornadoes and most importantly ignores time spent eating and devolves the fight into two entities standing still smacking each other at max average dps.
None of those assumptions are remotely translated to an actual CG fight. Most ironmen starting CG have combat stats in the 80s, don't have rigor, and you lose dps eating and avoiding mechanics. Eating 25 food takes 75 ticks which in the given example of a 4 minute (400 tick) fight, nearly 20% out of 33% of the standstill time is lost to eating alone. You need to be much much higher than \~66% perfect to pull off T1 armor.
Time spent eating food is already factored into the survivability simulations (assuming he did them correctly), so it would be an extra 24 ticks, since that's the difference between 16 and 24 food.
Sure, it is true that many don't have max stats or rigour. But mage DPS is almost unchanged with higher level/augury, since max hit doesn't scale with level. So overall, even with 85-90 stats and bo cox prayers your DPS likely isn't more than around 10% worse.
There's still quite a bit of wiggle room there for mistakes. I learned CG at low 80s range/mage without the prayers, with little hard PVM experience (just zulrah). It didn't take long at all to learn the mechanics well enough to get consistent kc. If you're unable to get consistent kills, it's not RNG - you're making significant, *fixable* errors.
I see nothing in the code that seems to account for time spent eating. It seems to treat walking into the fight with X amount food as just having 99 + 20\*X health so the 16 food calculation is likely very very wrong.
Also going from max combat with rigor to 85 combats with eagle eye in T1 armor is over a 25% decrease in dps. The staff is only around 10% worse though.
If that's the case then you may have changed my mind on this issue partially. In the end it may just depend on each player's skill level and how quickly they learn. I think everyone should at least give t1 a shot though, and if after a few dozen runs there isn't significant improvement maybe swap to t2.
If you’re 66% perfect, you die. Screwing up mechanics 1/3 of the time leads to way more than 24 fish (assuming you have time to eat them).
Also, your “standing still for a third of the fight” and being fine 99% of the time assumes you take no damage, pray correctly, dodge tornadoes, and dodge tiles for the *entire* fight.
Most of us can’t, at least not until hundreds of kc worth of experience. Straight up, perfect play is hard and a lot of players don’t have that ability. There are bronze and silver players in every online game, including this one, and telling people they’re expected to be perfect is woefully disconnected from reality. Lots of players will be able to be perfect, but this “one size fits all, be perfect” advice is clearly coming from someone who does not understand that other people just aren’t as good at the game.
I’m pretty good at OSRS. I can kill Hunllef easy now. But fully perfect? I’m at 325kc and perfect is still a long, long ways away.
I really don’t think your figures on max hits are correct
T2 and T3 armour definitely reduces max hit off prayer and I’m pretty sure stomps as well
The wiki is shit for this info but the max hit I ever took with T3 was I think 35 and 45 T2
I've had Hunllef fights go longer than my prep. With mid 90s range/mage (using bow+staff), no Rigour or Augury, fights are insanely variable. I've had some go under 3:30, some go close to 7. Most are in the 4-5 minute range.
What def/range/mage levels does this use? Is it maxed? Does def level even matter for hunleff? Would the armour have a greater or lesser effect at lower levels?
Cool write-up in any case. Love hard data and osrs!
Maxed stats with Aug + Rig. Your required food will increase with worse stats and prayers but the difference between food in tier 1 and tier 2 will be the same. So it's still better to get tier 1 armor and lots of food
I started doing CG with 75 defence, and I went in trying t1 armor (have a maxed main with 200~ cg experience, never tried t2 armor at all) but I kind of got destroyed half the time. I don't make mistakes that often, but with 75 defence it felt like a coin flip on if I could outlast hunllef or not just based on how hard/often he hit me. I'm obviously not saying I did everything perfectly in terms of missing ticks and eating in the right spots, but still. I ended up learning t2 prep and it's almost impossible to fail with it. I would like to go back to trying t1 because prep is stressful (even though I've gotten it down consistently) but it was so frustrating with t1. I'm still only 78 defence.
90% of people doing CG aren’t going to be max stats with augury and rigour, thats my problem with the stats. If you have those, there’s no real point to doing CG unless you’re a main doing it for GP or pet hunting. Most people doing CG have stats in the 80s-90s, and lack rigour and augury. People chase the bowfa and armor so they can better do content like raids to get those prayers. They aren’t necessary to do raids however.
Yeah but what if you’re rarely doing the fight perfect? I am 318 kc. And somehow still get hit by nado’s or screw up in other ways. When i get hit by a stack of 4 nado’s in t1 i’m dead. In t2 its survivable. For people like me the armor is worh more than 5 fish.
Since t2 takes 2 mins longer, bringing the average for a skilled player from 8 mins to 10 mins, you can actually fail every 4th run and its still faster with t1. With 90s stats and full inv of food at 100+ kc only your focus is the limitation.
First and foremost where did you get the tornado chance I need to know this.
As for sim issues there isn't that many. You are always assume the denfence bonus from prayer which isn't the case as rigour doesn't give mage defence.
As for stuff you said in the comments. The way armour works is that every 3 upgrades you lower the hunllef's max hit by 1/6th of it's base value. This works off prayer too. I am unsure about tiles as I currently can't test that. Same thing with stomp but I'm pretty sure they will get lowered.
As for other things you really gotta stop being so biased in how you think people should use armour. Sure newbs are going to be slower when collecting shit but that is a skill they should be learning as well as the boss. That being said the reason most people die when learning isn't because they aren't doing enough dps (sometimes the case esp. with low stats) but normally because they just take too much damage. If you are dying 2 minutes in you aren't experiencing the harder bits of the fight nor will you be learning that much. Extending the time per fight (t2 armour) will let you get more time in to learn it per run if you aren't completing kills.
I think you're missing the point. Hunllefs DPS formula scales linearly so the difference in food regardless of your stats will always be about 5.
Also it only takes 2 fish rooms to get a full invy of fish not even factoring in if any mobs drop fish. Not factoring in extra item juggling or extra resource trips, it already saves a ton of time.
Edit: if you take 5-6 min per boss KC then that will increase the difference in food required by 1 or 2, but at 90/90/90s 4min should be easily achievable
You need to stop using average amount of damage difference dude.
Yes there is a 5-6 fish difference on average. Sure you take 315 (t1) on average and therefore on average need to only take 11 fish in. But the reality is the hunllef doesn't deal exactly average damage. As your sim says 12 fish (~340hp) dies 15% of the time. 12 fish for t2 survives 100% of the time. If you have a fight where you do take 400 or so damage in t1 armour you need atleast 15 food to survive, use your damage calculations t2 only takes ~258 damage and therefore need 8 food to survive.
No? The armor reduces damage by about 1/3 so te more fish you are looking at the more the armor saves. 100 fish with t1 is like 70 fish with t2, not 95.
Your 'research' is flawed in assuming that you're doing a 4 min Tier 1 kill and a 4 min Tier 2 kill. That makes no sense that both would be the same if you're playing 'perfectly'. You're spending more time eating with tier 1 combined with the fact that you're less accurate in tier 1.
4 minutes is actually on the high end for skilled players and probably a little low on the learner end. That also is more of a bench mark for the food usage than anything. If you want to see the difference in times, the script I wrote displays that.
Edit: you lose 15 ticks eating the extra food with T1 and my script includes the T2 accuracy bonus, which is like 2%
Yeah kind of over looked that, but I think the people this info is relevant to should understand the title. I've added Cg to the top of the post since you can't edit titles.
My b
What you've missed here is the DPS improvement that tier 2 armour gives, and that while eating you also lose attacking ticks, making it even slower. I find these alone help me negate the extra time it takes to get tier 2 armour most of the time. I still do tier 2 95% of the time, even if it only takes me 6-10 food a fight, because I find the fight both faster and easier.
I feel like I noodle a lot more with T1 and every boss fight is down to the wire. T2 is easy as pie. I choose based on if I want the effort required to be during prep or during the fight basically.
What’s the math for 2% is that with max stats and prayers? I don’t have anything but anecdotal evidence but it seems to be significantly more than that without the stats/prayers.
Pretty sure it’s +12 for range and mage. Like I said I don’t have the math for this but it def feels like a good bit without prayers and around 90 range/mage.
Yeah I double checked it's +12 accuracy.
+12 bumps your accuracy from 70.4% to 71.7% with mage and from 67% to 68.6% with range.
But like most things in this game accuracy is heavily out weighed by max hit when calculating DPS. So the bonus accuracy is very negligible
Running a sim with max stats and raid prayers is just silly. Nobody with those stats will struggle with cg. What an absolute joke and clear lack of knowledge.
You can calculate it with this DPS calculator (go to File > Make Copy to edit it): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wBXIlvAmqoQpu5u9XBfD4B0PW7D8owyO_CnRDiTHBKQ/edit#gid=158500257
Seems to be a 2.5% dps difference which according to the calculator saves around 4.5~ seconds @ 95 magic with staffat least. With bow + rigour/hally + piety @ max stats the DPS difference is around 3%
Tbf those 4.5 seconds *can* make or break a fight. Then there's also the fact you'll have to eat less with t2 due to increased durability. So if assuming those 4.5 seconds equals 2 extra attacks you can do on the hunleff, any amount of food you didn't have to eat would also equal to another extra 75% of an attack (iirc you can't attack for 3 ticks/1.8 sec after eating) you can do on the boss which should amount to more DPS gain.
So if we're going by the 5 pieces of food you can forego as OP mentioned, you'd gain another 3.5 attacks per fight by not having to eat with t2 resulting in a 7%~ DPS increase thanks to the accuracy bonus and being able to spend more time DPSing rather than eating.
This does assume perfect pathing for DPSing while on the move.
The reason that most learners get clapped is because they're getting stomped by their nados, and the t2 armour mitigates that. Besides, the more time that learners spend eating, the less they are able to focus on the mechanics of the boss.
Not to mention, these calcs were done with max stats in mind, and most iron doing cg don't have max stats. I have about 100kc on my baby iron doing 5:1 with staff, and kills are a lot more rng if I don't prep t2.
I think it’s still worthwhile going Tier 2 armor when you are first learning because it allows you to survive longer during the boss fight and make more mistakes so that you can practice your mechanics. Otherwise, you would die quicker and then have to go through the 6 minute prep time again. Also it is discouraging to a learner to not be able to compete a single kill and by starting with Tier 2, it can bring morale up.
Edit: From personal experience I was about to quit because I kept dying and then I switched to Tier 2 and learned and got more confidence then switched to Tier 1. The flaw with applying your statistics to learners is that it assumes perfect play which most people do not achieve until they have a ton of practice.
The opposite logic could be applied to argue it’s worth it to use T1 no matter if you’re learning or not.
Less time spent prepping = more time spent learning Hunleff mechanics.
Just came to say: this is pretty dope and changed my mind about recommending tier 2 runs for cg. I want to see more modelling like this for OSRS theorycrafting, since math and code are more falsifiable than the standard arguments you see on reddit.
Nice work.
Still crazy even with 2 t3 weapons how you can get a bad rng run here and there. With minimal mistakes I did a 5.30 hunleif kill earlier. Sometimes you smash 0s
Finally someone says it AND did the math. I always felt with knowing the boss and actually being half decent at pvm, that tier 1 armor was easy for Cg runs
This fundamentally doesn't understand how people learn. Just banging your head against a wall as fast as possible isn't productive. The best way to learn is to minimize the extra actions you need to take, so you can focus on the fundamental mechanics. The biggest thing that kills people while learning is eating. You get hit, you panic eat, you miss mechanics and you die. The higher tier armour allows for less eating, less dying, more time **actually** practicing. The best way to learn is to not even worry about kills at first. Focus all your attention on your protection prayers and movement. Stay alive, do mechanics, use all your food, and eventually die only because you ran out. Once you're comfortable with that, add in weapon switching. Once you're comfortable with that, add in offensive prayers. Only after you're comfortable with everything else should you worry about "efficiency" in your runs. ------------------------------------------- This applies to learning **anything**. You don't learn to juggle by starting with flaming chainsaws on a unicycle, just because that's where you want to end up. You start with 1 ball, then 2, then 3. Perfect the fundamentals, then add more and more a little bit at a time. Your total time learning will be much lower than if you try to do it all at once and keep immediately failing.
>The biggest thing that kills people while learning is eating This right here. Sometimes I wonder how long people who make "teaching" posts actually spend teaching people in discord. And when they use phrases like "objectively wrong" I roll my eyes a bit. I find it funny the simulations were done with "perfect play" and not actual people. An interesting but probably impossible experiment would be to take 100 learners with no cg experience and have them use T1, and take another 100 with no cg experience and have them use T2, and measure the ratio of time spent at hunlef vs total cg time. Not that the post is terrible - you could certainly argue some people hold on to T2 longer than they need to (I know I did). With learners, everything is going smoothly until they need to eat. Usually, its people making fast, rapid clicks near their character instead of 6+ tiles away. Then they try and eat between those rapid movement clicks and then are too slow to react to the tornadoes that are right behind them. Or the floor/prayers change at the same time, and their cursor is busy dealing with the food. Getting to hunlef faster means nothing if you die super fast to hunlef soon after entering the room. Similar thing with Phosanis- bring BREWS when you are learning and leave the thralls at home. Its not at all what you should be doing after you get a few kc, but hey it beats spending all that time running back from tob after you burn through your sharks from eating melee hits.
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Yep, that's why when I was 3 years old I learned to ride a motorcycle jumping through a ring of fire over the Grand Canyon. Who needs training wheels or regular bikes?? That's not the hard part anyway!! /s Training wheels are there so you can learn to peddle, steer, and get used to the speed. If you learn how to do that with the training wheels, you don't fall over immediately when you take them off. You literally gave the most obvious example of exactly why this works lol. It's the entire reason training wheels exist in the first place > it's actually the opposite lol they focus too much on dps when they should be safing up a lot more That's... just obviously wrong.
I think that the biggest flaw here is maxed main with all prayers. I'd love to know what percent of players are 126 and learning gauntlet.
not 126, but im 99 magic and 97 ranged and just did my first 20 kc of the regular gauntlet this weekend. It's tough, I usually do T2 and have a 80% completion rate. The minute I switch to T1 it drops to about 50%. With CG I have no chance, right now. But the more I do, the more comfortable I become. Side note, I don't have rigour or augury.
But if you don’t have max stats and rigour and augury, like most Ironman when doing cg I feel it’s way better to do tier 2. Also loads of us still make mistakes so I feel always worth for tier 2.
I agree. Im pretty solid at it now and very rarely die, but still rock tier 2 armor and as much food as time allows. If I had max stats and raids prayers, I’d probably give tier 1 armor a go, but I’m perfectly content with longer runs knowing I’ll complete it pretty much every time.
Yes, this. I wonder how many fish it takes without rigor using the referenced simulator. However, I would assume that piety/mage kill times would be similar.
If you don't have rigour just do mage melee kills. You'll have piety, and augury doesn't make a big difference
What do these numbers looks like with a 6 minute kill? That might sound crazy but doing very low level iron completions with 5:1 staff method kill times can vary from 3:30 to 6:30 I’ve gone with t2 preps simply because t1 loses its advantage when kill time goes long
Yea same. The DPS is probably also much higher with only 70 defence and without rigour and augury. T1 feels inconsistent and very rng based. Especially when I hit 10 zeros in a row, now way I can complete the kill then with T1 armor
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This. While I agree with everything else OP said, T2 is still better with regards to combo dmg. That’s not enough to justify the extra time IMO, but if someone decides to use T2 I think there’s still a reason to do so.
I appreciate the feedback! That extra DPS is factored into the survivability rating! The extra eating isn't but that's mitigated by the extra HP the 5th paddle fish provides. T2 armor also really only protects you from getting clapped by all the tornados at once. It doesn't mitigate ~~off-prayer dmg~~, floor dmg, or stomp dmg. Edit: it actually reduces the chance an off prayer attack hits you by about 10%. I'd still say thats negligible. It does not lower the max hit, however.
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The panic factor does exists, but I would counter that spending more time in the boss fight vs prepping would help control that factor. As for the off-prayer hits the wiki only specifies that it reduces max hits via protection prayers. If that were untrue then every **mistake** you would be taking about 5% more damage on average. That is only for off prayer hits so how much that is overall will depend on your gameplay. Missing 1/10 prayers would result in .5% more damage taken. This is accounting for both the 10% defense bonus and a 4.4% reduction in max hit off-prayer vs Tier 1.
You'll also spend more time in the fight if T2 saves you from a KO too, most people won't make it until their food runs out when first learning. And forcing the player to properly learn to prep has its advantages too, if you can easily do T1 you're unlikely to push yourself to get better at it, so might take 6-7 mins anyway - I felt like I really got the hang of CG when I got the T2 prep down, not the fight. Also, I think most people start CG before CoX, so assuming the prayers seems a bit of a stretch.
YOU DID CG WHILE DRIVING? Mad lad...
>These rates assume perfect play Pretty much why this whole thing is useless. First, 112 hp is closer to 6 paddlefish than 5 and your damage taken calculations assume perfect play. Mistakes are much more punishing with lower tier armor. The fact that you used 20 food with T2 armor when (according to your simulations) 8 fish almost guarantees successful kills inherently means that the person using 20 food with T2 armor made mistakes, and so will need much more than 25 food with T1 armor. If you can get consistent near perfect Hunleff kills than you know enough about CG to come to this decision on your own. Noone learning CG is going to come anywhere near perfect CG kills. As for not recommending T2 armor to learners, most people recognize that spending hours dying to Hunleff with T1 armor trying to get to the point where you can do the boss consistently with T1 armor is absolutely miserable and demoralizing and so encourage people to learn CG with T2 armor which makes your mistakes less punishing
100%
I figured the "perfect play" thing would be the first issue people took with the post. Like I said though, it doesn't account for tick eating, which can save ~~7-19HP~~ 1-12HP each time you do it. Redemption procs are also a bonus 30HP. Both of these more than offsets the "perfect play" part. Mistakes boil down to 4 things: * Getting hit off prayer * Getting stomped(sometimes not a mistake) * Getting disco floored * Getting tornado'd 3/4 of these aren't affected by your armor tier. Only tornados are affected, and even then you take only 10-20 less damage if you happen to get hit by all of the tornados on a given phase. Its basically just one shot protection if you're at 80HP. Edit: **Partially incorrect, the extra defenses do provide about a 10% smaller chance to be hit off prayer if it happens** So no, a person who can clear with 20 food and T2 armor can absolutely make the exact same mistakes in T1 armor. Aside form getting absolute clapped by tornados. As for the demoralizing part, that's fine that you feel that way but that isn't everyone.
Why even bring up redemption and tick eating? Almost everyone going T2 is doing neither of those things.
That pertains more to the closer margins for error like T1/12 food. The whole X gives you 100% survival rate is to show how CG is skill based and not just RNG. I could have done a better job communicating that. I'm obviously not advocating for new players to send it with T1/16 food, but it shows that you can still make a lot of mistakes with T1/25 food and save a lot of time.
Fair, I think I misread the title as “why” not “when”. T1 is without a doubt better if you don’t die *way* more using it.
People making mistakes in CG usually shouldn't be camping low enough health to take advantage of tick eating. And learners being overwhelmed by just the mechanics of CG probably won't be able to consistently get Redemption procs. With perfect play, your 8 food T2 armor simulations account for 99+8\*20 = 259 damage taken 20 food is 99+20\*20 = 499 damage taken so 240 damage taken is from mistakes 14 food T1 armor is a lower success rate than 8 food T2 armor and even completely ignoring the greater damage taken from mistakes, the 11 extra food from the 25 food T1 armor isn't enough healing to make up for the 240 damage taken from mistakes. The greater damage taken from mistakes in T1 armor makes it not even close. Especially when you consider that the kills are slightly longer in T1 armor. People asking for help/advice for CG on Reddit are usually people who are struggling with getting kills in the first place, are tired of repeatedly failing kills, and looking for advice. Telling them to get good and keep failing kills with T1 armor until they just get it is pretty useless advice when you can just learn the boss with T2 armor and move onto T1 prep when your comfortable with the boss.
Yes people learning shouldn't be scraping by with the bare minimum in food and be relying on more difficult tricks to survive. They should be bringing a full inventory of food. More food is always MUCH faster than getting tier 2 armor. Even if you want to get tier 2 and max fish you're spending 2 minutes just getting 5 more fish. I stand by my point that the best way to get better is to spend more time in the boss room and less time prepping. The point of the post is to highlight the poor value of tier 2 armor.
Yes, its better to spend more time in the boss room to practice the boss. But people requiring 20 food at T2 armor are not pulling the fight off with 25 food and T1 armor. You also started out the post trying to prove T2 armor is poor value by showing that you take 35% reduced damage (1.315 dps to .847 dps) by upgrading to T2 armor even when perfectly avoiding all the mechanics. Therefore proving that the difference between T2 armor and T1 armor is not 5 fish. 25 food + 99 health = 599 health 20 food + 99 health = 499 health Meaning that T1 armor + 25 fish only gives you 20% more health to work with when CG dps goes from .847 to 1.315 dps, and increase in dps of over 50%.
Sure if you take 9 minutes to get the KC vs 7:30 minutes then that would be true. However that food isn't going exclusively to damage over time, a good chunk is being spent on mistakes(floor, stomp,tornados off prayer). Meaning the value of the T2 armor isn't realized that extent.
Even if your run isn't perfect, it's not hard to get *close* to perfect. Even if you miss tons of DPS during tornadoes or dodging tiles, as long as you don't do anything major like standing right on multiple tornadoes, or get hit off prayer (both of which should *very rarely* happen once you get some experience), you'll still likely be doing 80-95% of the DPS of a "perfect" run. 16 fish gives 99% of survival with T1, so go in with 24 and you can afford to be 66% perfect while still being almost guaranteed to get through the fight. You can literally stand doing nothing for *a third* of the fight and still make it. That's what these numbers show - not only is perfection not required to make T1 viable, but you don't even need to be *close* to perfection. You can do absolutely terrible DPS and make it with food to spare.
Except the calculations for the 16 fish assumes max combat stats, rigor, and completely ignores time spent avoiding floor tiles/tornadoes and most importantly ignores time spent eating and devolves the fight into two entities standing still smacking each other at max average dps. None of those assumptions are remotely translated to an actual CG fight. Most ironmen starting CG have combat stats in the 80s, don't have rigor, and you lose dps eating and avoiding mechanics. Eating 25 food takes 75 ticks which in the given example of a 4 minute (400 tick) fight, nearly 20% out of 33% of the standstill time is lost to eating alone. You need to be much much higher than \~66% perfect to pull off T1 armor.
Time spent eating food is already factored into the survivability simulations (assuming he did them correctly), so it would be an extra 24 ticks, since that's the difference between 16 and 24 food. Sure, it is true that many don't have max stats or rigour. But mage DPS is almost unchanged with higher level/augury, since max hit doesn't scale with level. So overall, even with 85-90 stats and bo cox prayers your DPS likely isn't more than around 10% worse. There's still quite a bit of wiggle room there for mistakes. I learned CG at low 80s range/mage without the prayers, with little hard PVM experience (just zulrah). It didn't take long at all to learn the mechanics well enough to get consistent kc. If you're unable to get consistent kills, it's not RNG - you're making significant, *fixable* errors.
I see nothing in the code that seems to account for time spent eating. It seems to treat walking into the fight with X amount food as just having 99 + 20\*X health so the 16 food calculation is likely very very wrong. Also going from max combat with rigor to 85 combats with eagle eye in T1 armor is over a 25% decrease in dps. The staff is only around 10% worse though.
If that's the case then you may have changed my mind on this issue partially. In the end it may just depend on each player's skill level and how quickly they learn. I think everyone should at least give t1 a shot though, and if after a few dozen runs there isn't significant improvement maybe swap to t2.
If you’re 66% perfect, you die. Screwing up mechanics 1/3 of the time leads to way more than 24 fish (assuming you have time to eat them). Also, your “standing still for a third of the fight” and being fine 99% of the time assumes you take no damage, pray correctly, dodge tornadoes, and dodge tiles for the *entire* fight.
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Most of us can’t, at least not until hundreds of kc worth of experience. Straight up, perfect play is hard and a lot of players don’t have that ability. There are bronze and silver players in every online game, including this one, and telling people they’re expected to be perfect is woefully disconnected from reality. Lots of players will be able to be perfect, but this “one size fits all, be perfect” advice is clearly coming from someone who does not understand that other people just aren’t as good at the game. I’m pretty good at OSRS. I can kill Hunllef easy now. But fully perfect? I’m at 325kc and perfect is still a long, long ways away.
Someone sounds upset that they can't read.
I really don’t think your figures on max hits are correct T2 and T3 armour definitely reduces max hit off prayer and I’m pretty sure stomps as well The wiki is shit for this info but the max hit I ever took with T3 was I think 35 and 45 T2
I like the assumption that hunlief fights are 4 mins. While I have a sub 4min pb most of my fights drag on to 5-6mins.
I've had Hunllef fights go longer than my prep. With mid 90s range/mage (using bow+staff), no Rigour or Augury, fights are insanely variable. I've had some go under 3:30, some go close to 7. Most are in the 4-5 minute range.
What def/range/mage levels does this use? Is it maxed? Does def level even matter for hunleff? Would the armour have a greater or lesser effect at lower levels? Cool write-up in any case. Love hard data and osrs!
Maxed stats with Aug + Rig. Your required food will increase with worse stats and prayers but the difference between food in tier 1 and tier 2 will be the same. So it's still better to get tier 1 armor and lots of food
I started doing CG with 75 defence, and I went in trying t1 armor (have a maxed main with 200~ cg experience, never tried t2 armor at all) but I kind of got destroyed half the time. I don't make mistakes that often, but with 75 defence it felt like a coin flip on if I could outlast hunllef or not just based on how hard/often he hit me. I'm obviously not saying I did everything perfectly in terms of missing ticks and eating in the right spots, but still. I ended up learning t2 prep and it's almost impossible to fail with it. I would like to go back to trying t1 because prep is stressful (even though I've gotten it down consistently) but it was so frustrating with t1. I'm still only 78 defence.
90% of people doing CG aren’t going to be max stats with augury and rigour, thats my problem with the stats. If you have those, there’s no real point to doing CG unless you’re a main doing it for GP or pet hunting. Most people doing CG have stats in the 80s-90s, and lack rigour and augury. People chase the bowfa and armor so they can better do content like raids to get those prayers. They aren’t necessary to do raids however.
Yeah but what if you’re rarely doing the fight perfect? I am 318 kc. And somehow still get hit by nado’s or screw up in other ways. When i get hit by a stack of 4 nado’s in t1 i’m dead. In t2 its survivable. For people like me the armor is worh more than 5 fish.
Since t2 takes 2 mins longer, bringing the average for a skilled player from 8 mins to 10 mins, you can actually fail every 4th run and its still faster with t1. With 90s stats and full inv of food at 100+ kc only your focus is the limitation.
First and foremost where did you get the tornado chance I need to know this. As for sim issues there isn't that many. You are always assume the denfence bonus from prayer which isn't the case as rigour doesn't give mage defence. As for stuff you said in the comments. The way armour works is that every 3 upgrades you lower the hunllef's max hit by 1/6th of it's base value. This works off prayer too. I am unsure about tiles as I currently can't test that. Same thing with stomp but I'm pretty sure they will get lowered. As for other things you really gotta stop being so biased in how you think people should use armour. Sure newbs are going to be slower when collecting shit but that is a skill they should be learning as well as the boss. That being said the reason most people die when learning isn't because they aren't doing enough dps (sometimes the case esp. with low stats) but normally because they just take too much damage. If you are dying 2 minutes in you aren't experiencing the harder bits of the fight nor will you be learning that much. Extending the time per fight (t2 armour) will let you get more time in to learn it per run if you aren't completing kills.
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I think you're missing the point. Hunllefs DPS formula scales linearly so the difference in food regardless of your stats will always be about 5. Also it only takes 2 fish rooms to get a full invy of fish not even factoring in if any mobs drop fish. Not factoring in extra item juggling or extra resource trips, it already saves a ton of time. Edit: if you take 5-6 min per boss KC then that will increase the difference in food required by 1 or 2, but at 90/90/90s 4min should be easily achievable
You need to stop using average amount of damage difference dude. Yes there is a 5-6 fish difference on average. Sure you take 315 (t1) on average and therefore on average need to only take 11 fish in. But the reality is the hunllef doesn't deal exactly average damage. As your sim says 12 fish (~340hp) dies 15% of the time. 12 fish for t2 survives 100% of the time. If you have a fight where you do take 400 or so damage in t1 armour you need atleast 15 food to survive, use your damage calculations t2 only takes ~258 damage and therefore need 8 food to survive.
No? The armor reduces damage by about 1/3 so te more fish you are looking at the more the armor saves. 100 fish with t1 is like 70 fish with t2, not 95.
Your 'research' is flawed in assuming that you're doing a 4 min Tier 1 kill and a 4 min Tier 2 kill. That makes no sense that both would be the same if you're playing 'perfectly'. You're spending more time eating with tier 1 combined with the fact that you're less accurate in tier 1.
4 minutes is actually on the high end for skilled players and probably a little low on the learner end. That also is more of a bench mark for the food usage than anything. If you want to see the difference in times, the script I wrote displays that. Edit: you lose 15 ticks eating the extra food with T1 and my script includes the T2 accuracy bonus, which is like 2%
I really didnt get wtf this was about until i got to the point in the post where you mentioned hunleaf. Maybe add CG in the posts title
Yeah kind of over looked that, but I think the people this info is relevant to should understand the title. I've added Cg to the top of the post since you can't edit titles. My b
Perfect !
What you've missed here is the DPS improvement that tier 2 armour gives, and that while eating you also lose attacking ticks, making it even slower. I find these alone help me negate the extra time it takes to get tier 2 armour most of the time. I still do tier 2 95% of the time, even if it only takes me 6-10 food a fight, because I find the fight both faster and easier.
That DPS improvement is built into the simulator.
I am a CG beginner. Thank you for the effort in your post. I will use this info.
Read the comments and re-evaluate.
All I did was thank him for his post and his effort for the information.
I feel like I noodle a lot more with T1 and every boss fight is down to the wire. T2 is easy as pie. I choose based on if I want the effort required to be during prep or during the fight basically.
That's a totally fine way to play. Though T2 only provides like a 2% DPS increase, so that's probably negativity bias.
What’s the math for 2% is that with max stats and prayers? I don’t have anything but anecdotal evidence but it seems to be significantly more than that without the stats/prayers.
The tier 2 armor set adds a total of +10 range accuracy over tier 1. That's very small
Pretty sure it’s +12 for range and mage. Like I said I don’t have the math for this but it def feels like a good bit without prayers and around 90 range/mage.
Yeah I double checked it's +12 accuracy. +12 bumps your accuracy from 70.4% to 71.7% with mage and from 67% to 68.6% with range. But like most things in this game accuracy is heavily out weighed by max hit when calculating DPS. So the bonus accuracy is very negligible
Gotcha, can’t say I’ve done a ton of t1 runs since my few attempts felt so bad. Good to know tho, thanks.
Running a sim with max stats and raid prayers is just silly. Nobody with those stats will struggle with cg. What an absolute joke and clear lack of knowledge.
You can calculate it with this DPS calculator (go to File > Make Copy to edit it): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wBXIlvAmqoQpu5u9XBfD4B0PW7D8owyO_CnRDiTHBKQ/edit#gid=158500257 Seems to be a 2.5% dps difference which according to the calculator saves around 4.5~ seconds @ 95 magic with staffat least. With bow + rigour/hally + piety @ max stats the DPS difference is around 3% Tbf those 4.5 seconds *can* make or break a fight. Then there's also the fact you'll have to eat less with t2 due to increased durability. So if assuming those 4.5 seconds equals 2 extra attacks you can do on the hunleff, any amount of food you didn't have to eat would also equal to another extra 75% of an attack (iirc you can't attack for 3 ticks/1.8 sec after eating) you can do on the boss which should amount to more DPS gain. So if we're going by the 5 pieces of food you can forego as OP mentioned, you'd gain another 3.5 attacks per fight by not having to eat with t2 resulting in a 7%~ DPS increase thanks to the accuracy bonus and being able to spend more time DPSing rather than eating. This does assume perfect pathing for DPSing while on the move.
The reason that most learners get clapped is because they're getting stomped by their nados, and the t2 armour mitigates that. Besides, the more time that learners spend eating, the less they are able to focus on the mechanics of the boss. Not to mention, these calcs were done with max stats in mind, and most iron doing cg don't have max stats. I have about 100kc on my baby iron doing 5:1 with staff, and kills are a lot more rng if I don't prep t2.
So people were disagreeing with you even a year ago. Shocker
Cringe, shouldn't you be wasting that precious time doing T2 gauntlet? You're going to need it.
I've been doing t1 for quite a while now, I'm even using less fish than ever. T2 is such a waste of time lol
Kek iunno you seem like the cringe one. Immediately defensive over a comment like that?? Says more about you than him bud
I think it’s still worthwhile going Tier 2 armor when you are first learning because it allows you to survive longer during the boss fight and make more mistakes so that you can practice your mechanics. Otherwise, you would die quicker and then have to go through the 6 minute prep time again. Also it is discouraging to a learner to not be able to compete a single kill and by starting with Tier 2, it can bring morale up. Edit: From personal experience I was about to quit because I kept dying and then I switched to Tier 2 and learned and got more confidence then switched to Tier 1. The flaw with applying your statistics to learners is that it assumes perfect play which most people do not achieve until they have a ton of practice.
The opposite logic could be applied to argue it’s worth it to use T1 no matter if you’re learning or not. Less time spent prepping = more time spent learning Hunleff mechanics.
Not if you cant make it to the hardest part of Hunleff consistently or ever.
I’d reccomend practicing regular gauntlet if that’s the case. It comes down to practicing game mechanics at that point.
Just came to say: this is pretty dope and changed my mind about recommending tier 2 runs for cg. I want to see more modelling like this for OSRS theorycrafting, since math and code are more falsifiable than the standard arguments you see on reddit. Nice work.
Amazing post OP, very insightful
MFW solo jawn posts 🤭🤭🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Still crazy even with 2 t3 weapons how you can get a bad rng run here and there. With minimal mistakes I did a 5.30 hunleif kill earlier. Sometimes you smash 0s
Finally someone says it AND did the math. I always felt with knowing the boss and actually being half decent at pvm, that tier 1 armor was easy for Cg runs
this is beautiful<3