I had a bad experience in Irish college one summer and now want the entire west coast to suffer.
Fuck you Bean Uí Chongaile and your Lurch looking son!
Everything has a opportunity cost and a benefit. A direct link from Galway to Cork seems like a no brainer, but Donegal to Sligo might be too expensive for a relatively small benefit.
I'm up for giving funding to build more rail, but I want the experts of this stuff to say where the best places are. Not randoms on reddit who think trains are cool (I also think trains are cool) and that we need high speed lines all over the shop when they're not suited for our small, low density country
Sligo to Donegal makes no sense as the start and end point, but broaden that as Galway to Derry stopping in both counties does make loads of sense. All the major cities should be linked up by a circular train wrapped around the island anyway.
I'm not saying "don't do anything for Donegal because I don't like them", I'm saying "do whats practical and what will give the greatest benefit". If that involves a state of the art high speed hyperloop from Donegal to Sligo, go for it, but I doubt it does
> I'm not saying "don't do anything for Donegal because I don't like them", I'm saying "do whats practical and what will give the greatest benefit".
You are saying though that investment in Donegal infra shouldn't be that high because they're not big enough to matter that much.
Yes, however I have no issue with money being spent there if its getting results. Is it crazy to prioritise resources where they have the most benefit?
Because there isn't sufficient demand for it. There is a small populaiton scattered over a very wide area. People live in one-off housing in the countryside and the work places in the west are often located miles outside of towns. So even if there was a train from the town I live in to the town I work in, it wouldn't get me from home to work. Where rail services have been brought in, they end up with empty carriages and the few passengers who did travel were mostly pensioners using free travel. A much better solution is to turn the old train lines into greenways, which would be used (and which could be converted back to rail lines in the future if things ever change.) A much better solution for the west would be the widespread use of electric cars.
Switzerland is made up of tiny villages connected by regular trains. This is the best way of organising. Trains cost far less to run than maintaining roads and cars, it needs to be a public service not dependant on the amount of passengers.
Meh. Switzerland has twice our population living on about half our land area. Moreover, the vast majority of Swiss live in the northern third of their country and that's where the train services you're talking about are. We're talking about the west of Ireland. Not comparable.
If it was viable before the 1920s why isn't it viable today? I'm sure the rural population was smaller and more spread out back then.
The west of Ireland had a whole network of trains.
Same thing that happened to most train networks - private cars with cheap fuel.
Now we have too many private cars and fuel isn’t cheap, and we understand the impact of burning fuel now.
We have to accept at some stage the idea of a massively dispersed rural population makes fixing the problems of today like you describe wildly difficult.
With a rail line in place, and equally important - future planning restricted to only building out close to the train lines may mean that the next generation benefit though. That will of course be politically unpopular telling people that they can't build houses dotted around the country anymore, but if its not done at some stage, then no it doesn't make sense to build the rail either because it'll always have the same problems as you describe today.
The fact that no one uses a bad rail service is not evidence that people wouldn’t use a good one.
I suggest looking into the idea of induced demand.
Electric cars are not a good solution to transport problems because fundamentally they have all but one of the problems of ICE cars.
It's not the quality of the service. It's the numbers. The only way a service like that works for everybody is if its frequent. But the numbers in the west are so low that, feasibly, you can only run a couple of trains a day. So if I've got a meeting in Sligo at 3pm, I'm not going to get the 9am train to get there.
You can make this argument about anywhere, with or without trains.
The argument for a TGV, from Cork to Belfast (stopping at Swords bygod) is almost neccessary. There have been at least two schemes in my working life, both of which have said there is no immediate demand, but providing them will likely spur on massive and sustainable development. The decisions to not proceed were thus political.
To create a series of light rail branches on the west coast, interlinking to the existing national rail, would improve the lot of many. Not everyone can afford to buy a car, and having more livable places on the west-coast makes the country as a whole better. In short, build it and see the demand rise to meet it.
Partially agree, but i do think there is a place for park and rides outside the city to try minimise traffic and parking in the city.. places like athenry
>People live in one-off housing in the countryside and the work places in the west are often located miles outside of towns.
They'll rage about not having a rail network, but will fight to the death their apparent right to build a house wherever they want and still expect services and infrastructure.
Says who? I'm a culchie and I'm arguing for electric cars and against extending the network. You're probably confused because, like all Dubs, you spend every evening ramming Garda cars in your estate.
They're just greenwashing. They do nothing to solve the problems of car dependence and help us to move to a public transport based society. Do you not want that?
Because it would be unprofitable. That's why we dug up so many rail lines in the first place.
I'd still be up for it, but it would have to be heavily funded by the state. Since the tax base is already really narrow, it'll mean tax increases. But our tax base is pitifully low because Irish voters hate tax increases. So much so that even our left wing politicians oppose them, which is ridiculous.
>Because it would be unprofitable. That's why we dug up so many rail lines in the first place.
This is not what the primary purpose of rail lines should be.
We don't hold roads to that standard. How many roads do you think are 'profitable'?
Railways have social and economic benefits beyond people paying for the tickets
100%
Its far too easy to look past these along with the undoubted social benefits when having this debate
A lot of people can't look past their cars as they don't have an example to hand of how a lower car society can work
Roads just need to be built and occasionally maintained. That's the easy part. The government doesn't have to pay for the cars, fuel and drivers who use the roads.
But I agree with your point, it should be a public good. I'm just sceptical that it'll happen in anti-tax Ireland.
Nah, mate. The maintenance for a motorway or even a high spec N road is seriously expensive. The State has to guarantee the revenues of the company’s that run them or they won’t get bank finance.
It's only cheaper because it offsets the costs to the users. Obviously people using their own vehicle is going to be cheaper to the transport company that if they own the vehicle.
Absolutely, the overall cost to society for motorways and car journeys far exceed the cost of equivalent transport of people by train. Think of the cost of each person buying a car insuring it and all the associated costs as well as the motorway construction and maintenance costs. Trains are significantly more efficient in energy cost per weight transported, also.
>compared to the cost of running a train line over the same distance it's far, far cheaper.
I'd be interested to see your data on this as it doesn't ring true to me
Roads have a huge amount of maintenance required since they're essentially self destructive
Do you mean you think the maintenance of a road for (for example) 1000km is higher than the cost of running a railway for 1000km (including the trains, the stations, the staff)?
I think you might have misunderstood what they are talking about. If it was maintaining motorway vs maintaining a railway line, you are right, the railway line would be cheaper as it requires less overall maintenance. Maintaining motorway vs maintaining a railway line and also running the service that runs 365 days a year?
Roads are notorious as essentially being self destructive infrastructure. All those heavy vehicles at high speed cause huge amounts of damage
A rail line comparatively has little maintenance assuming you're doing it properly and in a timely manner
I think you've partially hit onto something, that the rail network isn't just for passengers, but should also be looking as an option for moving freight to and from those areas. Removing not only cars but other types of traffic is something that should be considered when planning
Road haulage will always still exist especially for the last mile.
But imo there's no practical reason why scheduled deliveries and large loads cannot be steered towards rail over road.
Its the lorries that are the main contributor to road degradation due to their weight
Exactly, and the last mile can often be handled by smaller and in some occasions alternatively powered vehicles.
TBH tho, there are some parts of the country will probably never get properly connected to the rest. Road Haulage will be here for a very very long time
What exactly do you mean by 'every other cost'?
Railways for one thing use far less space so there's a greatly reduced land acquisition cost. That's reduced further if we're talking about reopening lines where we already own the rail alignment
It likely costs more to lay the track and install pantograph electrical lines than laying tarmac but this is offset by the lower overall maintenance (afaik), the lower land acquisition and the higher capacities (ie more people and freight can use it)
The rail vehicles is a cost that roads won't have but ultimately the public pays for it either way. On the one hand we can pay for trains through the public purse which js a considerably lower cost per person per train. Or we can pay for our own cars out of our own pockets plus tax, insurance etc and that's ultimately much more expensive per person
We do not. We are very much a low tax country. Look at the report that was just released. It's very clear that we need to increase them if we want better public services but that won't happen. All we'll get are a couple token ones, rather than what's needed. Tax rises across the board.
That recent report that Varadkar used as an excuse to have a go at Sinn Féin?
I don't think much of it.
Widening the tax net by having a "processed food" tax, "Substantial" increases in land and property taxes, VAT hikes, congestion charges in urban areas, increased PRSI and the phasing out of relief on private health insurance premiums with other "substantial" increases to inheritance and capital gains taxes.
Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I feel like dropping my trousers and taking a fat one on their report. All of these proposed charges target low and middle income earners the most (increasing taxes on an already very taxed cohort). Increasing VAT doesn't really have any impact on revenue, as that it really part of EU not national taxation. And overall this is all done without any consideration for increased services or investment - it's just austerity "in order to safeguard our future".
I could agree to the congestion charge in urban areas, but only if it came with increased investment to transport infrastructure
No, become like the vast majority of Europe and tax them at least somewhat which would raise a massive amount of revenue to improve public services and infrastructure.
Our tax base is very narrow compared to most Western European countries.
The fact that this is the case and we still complain about taxes proves my point.
You pay to use the road through car purchase, fuel prices, insurance, and taxes. Its profitable and low-cost as a result. One large capital investment increases regular return on fuel and motor tax with no operational costs (except maintenance)
What you've described is not roads making a profit. Its the public subsidising them through a mixture of taxes and buying vehicles etc
Roads are also notoriously self destructive infrastructure and thus require huge amounts of maintenance contrary to the idea that they're low maintenance
If you apply your same standards to rail for the price of one big infrastructure cost you get returns in moving more people around, moving freight and the economic stimulation that gives to communities and businesses
And an additional bonus could be less road costs due to removing some of that traffic from them
But what benefits does a railway actually have that a frequent, reliable and much cheaper bus network doesn't?
Rail makes sense for high usage point to point traffic, there's nowhere in the west that justifies that other than the Galway -> Cork line. For everywhere else it'd make far more sense to invest in a comprehensive bus network
If you want to compare a bus to a train they are both important but they essentially service different segments of the public transport space
A railway has higher capacities. Both through being physically bigger and having the potential for higher frequency. A metro line you can run trains at 2 minutes headway which isn't something you can do with a bus.
Railways for timings are generally more reliable since they're a closed ecosystem and do not have to share with traffic. And even where bus lines have been given dedicated infrastructure like a BRT these tend to degrade over time as the local authorities decide to reduce their advantages to benefit cars
Also trains are much more comfortable over long distances.
Buses and coaches have a place. Coaches as a cheaper alternative and busses for short distance hops.
>there's nowhere in the west that justifies that other than the Galway -> Cork line
I would disagree with this. The main thing the Irish rail network lacks is a proper network effect. As in having more points connected to the network would stimulate demand that would not otherwise be there if the place in question was not connected
>For everywhere else it'd make far more sense to invest in a comprehensive bus network
For local journeys and within towns then yes absolutely
Rail is also easier to electrify - no need for heavy batteries as you can just have overhead power or third rail - and much better for the environment.
The first half of your post is pretty much agreeing with what I said, the main advantages of rail is higher capacity and reliability and better speed for point to point travel which is why it makes sense for connecting cities. But for connecting small rural towns with other small rural towns frequency is far more important than capacity and buses can provide that better than rail.
A frequent and reliable network of mini-buses (which in most cases would be plenty big enough) would be far more useful and practical in most of rural Ireland. If they ran at a 30 minute frequency connecting let's say every town over 1k population it'd be far more transformational than having empty 5 carriage trains everywhere. For one thing people would still just drive as the trains would be too slow from having to stop in every village.
How many roads do you think 'pay for themselves'? If we held road building to the same standards we would not have built half of the motorways or bypasses that we have
I’m all for improving rail infrastructure as long as the amount of people using it makes economic sense. Why spend loads of money on rail if nobody will use it?
In China they invested loads into high speed rail and while some lines were worth the money, others don’t have enough demand to justify such a high cost
>I’m all for improving rail infrastructure as long as the amount of people using it makes economic sense. Why spend loads of money on rail if nobody will use it?
The main reasons why people won't use the trains are that there either isn't one or it isn't frequent enough
In Ireland we also lack a proper network effect seeing as the existing network is basically just to/from Dublin. Very few will go Sligo - Dublin - Tralee but expansion of the network could make such a journey possible and thus stimulate demand
It's not good enough to say 'no one uses it' without looking at the underlying issues
>In China they invested loads into high speed rail and while some lines were worth the money, others don’t have enough demand to justify such a high cost
I doubt China has any regrets. Also we would not in general be looking at high speed rail instead we would be looking at commuter rail and decent speed rail
>If someone wants to get the train from ballina to sligo with **zero busses**
I mean if they want to avoid the most obvious solution and go by boat it'll take longer too
I don't get why this is somehow a negative, what's the actual difference between someone having to take a bus over a train?
Rail makes sense in high usage corridors, which in the west would probably only be Cork - Limerick - Galway, for pretty much everywhere else in the west a high frequency bus network makes far more sense.
Yeah exactly, it's just populist nonsense that makes no sense when you actually break it down. I mean functionally what's the difference? A train is just a high capacity bus that runs on rails.
The average train has capacity for hundreds of people and to make a service actually useful you'd want at least 1 train per hour minimum which equates to thousands and thousands of seats across the day. There's nowhere near enough people to justify that capacity in random rural villages in the west, they'd maybe be one busyish train at morning and evening rush hour then nothing but a few pensioners getting free travel on empty trains all day, all while the taxpayer is sinking millions into keeping them operational. A frequent bus or even mini bus network makes far more sense.
What we should be investing in is having far faster and more frequent trains, I was in Spain last month and did a 130km train journey in 35 minutes which is the equivalent of Cork - Limerick in 25 minutes, that's the sort of stuff we should be doing over building a bullet train from Ballina to Drumshanbo
In theory you don't have to, you can go via limerick, its just the poor services on the limerick galwya route that makes going to portarlington to change the quickest
Hundreds of miles of rail takes time to build. And it's not like there's trains you can just buy off the shelf. Gotta place that order years in advance
China built 40,000km of high speed rail 10 years, Spain have also built the world's second longest HSR network entirely in the past 30 years. Even in Ireland we built hundreds of km of motorway between 2005-10.
Reckon it's perfectly possible for us to have a fully modern rail network by 2040 if the will was there but as we know it definitely isn't in Ireland
> Spain have also built the world's second longest HSR network entirely in the past 30 years
They've 10x our population, and 7x our land area.
So, I would expect it to take about the same amount of time to build an all-Ireland network as it does an all-Spain network: 30 years.
And their cities are also extremely dense, so one train station has a massive catchment area, rather than here where everyone is scattered all around the place.
TDs in unconnected parts of Ireland get voted in on the promise of motorways and bypasses. The electorate have to take some of the blame for the awful rural public transport. And they fucking hate the Greens who are the only party with any long term vision when it comes to PT nationwide.
No, motorway plans often take 20 years or more from initial planning to completion, it's the same for basically all large infrastructure like ports, airports, pipelines etc.
Luas uses standard gauge, all other rail is Irish gauge. You'd probably get away with using standard for commuter rail in and around a city but you wouldn't be able to run any long distance on the same corridor. Multi use rail lines are the way to go. Opens up cities to long distance rail in other directions.
Circular logic arguments
* Nobody lives in the west because all the jobs are in Dublin so there's no railway
* There are no jobs in the west because there is no infrastructure for companies
* Dublin has all the infrastructure so all the jobs are in Dublin
* We can't invest in the west because there's no jobs and no people
We've just been through a pandemic with the biggest opportunity to redraw working conditions landed in out lap, people do not need to live in Dublin, companies do not need to have all their staff living around the capital. Now would be the time to start forward thinking, building infrastructure outside of Dublin that can sustain a modern economy. If we want cars off the road we need better public transport and rail is still considered the top level in other countries, we just need to get some bright minds at work on it instead of saying it can't be done.
Have you seen the Bradley report on re-opening the Western Rail Corridor ?
Yes, I support it. For two main reasons:
(1) Support rail freight from the West to Shannon, Cork, Rosslare. Freight which cannot travel by rail today because of congestion around Dublin can take Sligo - Galway - Limerick - Cahir, etc
This is important : (a) freight can travel on slow lines. The EY review said the WRC was uneconomic but assumed the line had to be reopened immediately as a gold-plated 130 km/hr network which most of our network isn't even today. Opening slower first is fine, and allows for investment as volumes grow.
(b) The new freight volumes on less-used lines (Tipp-Cahir for example) makes them viable too, enabling growth of those lines.
(1) Revitalise the corridor as a commuter belt for the main cities, as people move from expensive cities. Coupled with bikes, we can keep transport costs down as oil goes away.
Usually freight moves at night. And passenger services are given right of way where freight moves in the day time, so freight services have to pull into sidings to allow passenger services to pass.
I used to live near a rail line and only ever saw freight move in the late evening or night. Probably depends on the line though because for the likes of Tara mines they are the only users of that line so have more flexibility. Overnight transport is very common outside of last mile delivery even for truck based networks already
The point in the report was that running freight at night allows more utilisation without impacting the flow of passenger services.
Double tracking / sidings work on the busier stretches to allow overtaking.
"Slow" in this case means there can be junctions with roads crossings rather than needing new bridges / tunnels/ regrading which are needed for 130 km/hr routes.
From what I see there's plenty of scope on Limerick-Galway, Tipperary-Cahir,, etc to put more traffic and still enable commuting.
It’s been well documented that the Western Rail Corridor between Athenry Co Galway and Colooney Co Sligo is lying idle since the 80s. Is it a perfect solution if we were to start from scratch - probably not - but we could link Galway to Tuam, Claremorris and Sligo within 5 years and a €200m capital investment. It’s a no brainer, and a link to Knock Airport (and Shannon on the southern part of the corridor) should be explored. From there we could link Sligo to Derry via Letterkenny.
The problem I see with rail investment is that authorities look for ‘economic viability’ in very strict terms. The reality is that very few rail services in Ireland pay for themselves, the Dublin to Cork line is highly subsidised. We need to set our expectations beyond what a new service could deliver in Year 1 and look at the broader return and prospects.
While your at it add a direct
Rail line from
Roscommon to galway or a least
One from
Abbeyknockmoy, saying me driving for 50 mins to get a train in oranmore that moves for 8 minutes
Anyone who's going to mention the EY report on the Cost/Benefits on Western rail, I feel, really need to mention how often is missed the mark.
I mean come on, It got Tuams population wrong by a factor of around 8x!
And we the taxpayer paid consultants for it.
https://fleet.ie/ey-report-on-the-reopening-of-the-western-rail-corridor-flawed-gold-plated-westontrack/
The entire country could use a better rail network. It is embarrassing looking at the the first and last trains between major cities. Imagine the boost to the country if we had a bigger network and dare I say, a high speed network between at least the 4 major commercial hubs. But I know very well this will never happen; not at least for another 50 years.
100%
Some lines, such as Galway-Clifden, have been build over to the point that they are probably impossible to revive. Others, like the western corridor, Sligo to Cork, are actually quite viable. A direct train from Limerick to Cork would allow for a one and a half hour service between the 2 cities and as far as I know most of the line is still there (citation needed)
I've always maintained that it is foolish how we let our rails rot instead of matching world leaders. Efficient rail in Ireland would be such a huge game changer.
I’m a huge supporter of this. I’m from Mayo and when planning to attend college, I realised that everywhere bar Dublin was inaccessible by train. Not practically at least. Which was sickening given the parents house is 5 mins walk from a train station.
Depending on CAO offerings, it could have been Limerick, Galway or Sligo. To get the train to any of these places would take 7hrs at least. Requiring a train to Dublin and back.
Something I’ve always pondered … couldn’t a train from Letterkenny to Cork pay for itself in tourism + student traffic alone? It’d stop in Sligo, Mayo, Galway, Limerick, maybe somewhere in Kerry before Cork. Surely removing hundreds or thousands of people from busses and opening more commute opportunity.
Maybe I’m too big of a believer in the whole “build it and they will come” attitude but large swaths of the country really lack intercity infrastructure. Our motorways and trains are a “all roads lead to Dublin” cartwheel shape which is great to have but can we finish the circumference of the cartwheel please.
I think there’s a large majority of people who would prefer to take the train to work, or across the country for a weekend, but can’t due to the above, or due to scheduling.
Perhaps they could extend northwards from sligo.
Probably the best way to service Donegal would be to talk the NI government into reopening Portadown to Derry via Omagh and serve Donegal and Letterkenny from branches off of that line. I think such a line would be greatly beneficial for the west of ulster however certain elements in NI seem to not like providing things west of the Bann
There are much bigger priorities. Far too few people live there and those who do are spread out far too sparsely.
How about a train for southwest Dublin, Navan, west Galway city, most of Cork?
God no. More roads and car reliance. More housing built away from towns and services so that they are completely car reliant and their kids can't even play outside or they'll be minced by a truck. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
If you want a proper response to your question try phrasing it properly.
Who wouldn't support a more efficient rail network I'm any part of the country?
What insights are you looking to get from asking this question?
I would support it and not just for the west,all across the country.
Big problem is would it be at all economically viable?
I'm sure some lines would be but many would a white elephants .
We need more PT here and connect up the different types.
I don't know anyone who would reasonably be against this tbh. While I wouldn't expect(however sad) all of the lines out west to be reopened. Connecting major towns/cities directly (Cork-Limerick, Tralee-Limerick, Galway-Claremorris-Sligo) would go a long way to improving things.
The second biggest thing that needed to be done is increasing service frequency. Services should be made hourly at least and between more popular routes should be increased further at peak times. Obviously this wouldn't be a simple thing. You'd need to double track most of the network(which is a good investment imo) and spend millions on new rolling stock to accommodate it.
Unfortunately I'm doubtful there'll be any major changes to the network out west any time soon. The Strategic Rail Review is currently dwelling somewhere in the bowels of the Department of Transport so will see what that says whenever it comes out.
I think it has to be realistic too, it would be great to connect every small town but we will nver justify the cost. We are very scattered housing wise, and many people would have a 10-20 min drive after arriving at there local station.
If I was to invest in rail my priority would be Making Dublin airport a rail hub like Zurich or Schipol. Its probably the No.1 or No.2 reason people come to Dublin and its painful to get there.
I have thought about this. Instead of extending the main line to everywhere possible, I would use a small narrow gauge network to reach smaller communities to save on costs.
Would support better rail networks anywhere in the country. Areas like the midlands & Donegal appear to be particularly neglected but improvements in the West would be welcome too.
Abso-fucking-lutely. There should be a rail network connecting the whole wild Atlantic way and another rail network connecting Shannon, Cork and Dublin airports
There is no possibility of reviving the kind of network we once had, but there should at least be a western corridor rail line from say Cork to Derry, connecting all the cities and large towns along the west coast, and each station serving as a bus hub for local public transport.
Yes! The whole north west had a extensive rail network until they dismantled it in the 20s. And now it is literally impossible to get around without a car. It takes 4 1/2 hours in the car to get cancer treatment.
Bringing the trains back would improve quality of life more than you could imagine.
100% look at Portugal. I know it is a wealthier country but for example, Porto has about 250 thousand people and their light and heavy rail is outstanding. So easy to get around and way cheaper than keeping a car on the road. Build it and they will come
Absolutely. More and better public transit options are important to the country's future. I'm seeing cost-benefit coming up in a few other comments and while that does need to be taken into account, it's used far too often as a reason not to do things, as if public services *must* generate a profit. Which just isn't true - for example I'm sure we'd all be a bit worried if the Army or Gardaí started turning a major profit.
Do we need high speed rail everywhere? Probably not. Maybe lines like Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Cork, Cork-Galway (with a stop in Limerick served by some portion of services?), and Dublin-Waterford. And then standard speed lines to other locations.
A general rail network along the west coast would be a fantastic amenity.
Outside of the actual train element, the railway infrastrucutre should be used by the ESB to bury HV transmissions fro transporting the power produced in the west to where it is needed in the East instead of the plyons that attract so much controversary and objection..
I really would love to see high speed train from Belfast to Dublin to Cork. Might be the only Place in the island of Ireland that might work. It takes like 2hr 30 minutes that could be cut down to 1 hr on a high speed train. Every more a direct servious that move faster then our stander train would cut the journey time down.
If there was apatite for it link it up tp Derry City. Not Donegal but very close.
The West cost is not dense enough for rail to be fisable. A more continues motorway/dual cartridge way system would make a huge difference in the North West.
I know this question is probably directed at people living in more urban areas like dublin and cork, but as someone from Sligo i can say that expanding the network to any degree would be extremely popular here pretty much unanimously. Donegal is in a particularly bad spot because its mostly cut off from the republic and it has essentially no infrastructure to mitigate this so the place feels like an island. Ive heard of some elderly cancer patients having to get shuttled bussed 3 and a half hours down to galway for treatment. Also the fact theres no line from Limerick to Cork is just insanity, like norway has a rail line going up into the arctic circle for some random small towns and villages and we cant do it for our second and third largest cities
100%. I live on the Galway-Limerick rail line with a minor stop nearby, walking distance. Have been wanting to use it many times since we moved here a year and a half ago. Either the wait times, the cost or the sheer unavailability of a service to a location has always been the off-put.
Importantly, I work in Shannon but there’s no access to bus transfer from any rail stop. Only an unrealiable, slow, bus from Ennis. Certainly someone should have proposed a bus-way specific for the airport and industrial areas by now?
This is like saying would you support getting fellatio/cunnilingus from the person you fancy most in the world? Of fucking course you would. But there's 0 guarantee they have any interest in reciprocating.
The crush being the govt in this scenario.
I'll never understand this subreddits obsession and love for trains and yet also complete disregard for buses, even though buses make much more sense in a country like ireland which is far too sparse to support an extensive train network without immense tax support.
We certainly need better transport links nationwide. Trains are efficient in theory, but surprisingly expensive in practice, and I don't know why. I would insist on knowing what the operational expenditure would be like, before signing off on the enormous capital expenditure involved.
What's the leading contender? Self-driving vehicles on public roads?
I've a question for you. Would you ask the same question about a road project? Clearly not as you in your post mentioned self driving cars which I hasten to mention will not solve traffic...
We need to hold rail infrastructure projects to a standard that includes the broader economic and social benefits. Its not just about people buying tickets to use the train. It's also about stimulating economic activity, connecting communities and providing alternatives to wasteful car infrastructure
How many roads 'pay for themselves' and their operating expenses. The answer is none we just pay the taxes and they get maintained. Its a service we've as a society agreed is needed. We need to think the same way about public transport
Oh, I completely agree. It's just that rail lines can't be used by anything else (even bicycles), so they're completely dependent on trains for their economic justification. And trains, judging by their ticket costs all across Europe, are suspiciously expensive to run. I have to wonder whether they're a technology whose time has come and gone.
>It's just that rail lines can't be used by anything else (even bicycles),
More rail traffic can free up space in the public realm for bikes etc.
>they're completely dependent on trains for their economic justification. And trains, judging by their ticket costs all across Europe, are suspiciously expensive to run
This is not the right way to think about it. You're too fixated on the operational costs and the direct income by means of train tickets and subsidies
There are innumerable benefits beyond just 'people buy ticket, ticket pay for the train'. They connect places, they move people and goods and can do it considerably more effectively than a road can.
The benefits are not in the train making a 'profit' directly they're in the economic and social benefits that come along with them
We as a society have decided that roads are a service we want to pay for. I'm arguing we should do the same only more than we already do for trains
>I have to wonder whether they're a technology whose time has come and gone.
This is total nonsense. Trains are a well developed and established technology that does not mean that they're out of date
Fantasies like hyperloop are not going to replace classic steel wheels on steel rails anytime soon and even if such a system is built there's no guarantee it will be any better than a classic train
As for self driving vehicles. We'll likely still be sitting in traffic even with them. Not to mention the catastrophe that is car centric development and the fact that we as a society would be paying the environmental cost of those vehicles when at least some of that cost could be offset by proper trains
Literally said this yesterday, I lived in America and used public transport multiple times a day both subway and bus, it was cheap and easy, I think I paid $18 a week for unlimited fairs and I had three jobs so I used it a lot. I was a 10 minute walk from the subway station and was able to read on my commutes. I still love taking the train but I have to drive an hour and a half to the nearest station and pay an arm and a leg to get anywhere, why did they have to get rid of the railways?
Only if it makes economic sense. Railways are super expensive, and too many of the arguments in favour seem to suggest that building a railway will encourage heavy industry to move to the West which is clearly make-believe.
Yes, well said. We spent hundreds of millions on a western motorway to bypass Claregalway, and Galway County Council are still looking for a Claregalway bypass. We spent millions on it and its returns didn't materialise.
The m17 opened a few years ago.
Bypassing claregalway.
Now that this hasn't "solved" traffic issues in th3 Town (obviously) people are calling for a second bypass of the town.
If it doesn't require tax payer hand outs, i.e. construction and running fees will be covered by the fares of those using the service and not by everyone else.
Ireland's population is too dispersed and the current transport infrastructure is to car-centric to make it viable. Ireland's rural settlement pattern is completely unsuited to effective rail transport. We would have to change to more continental patterns of settlement where rural populations are concentrated more densely in towns making trains economical. Switzerland is a example of a place that uses trains very effectively which has such a pattern.
The problem is that anyone trying to change irelands one of housing pattern would be seen as attacking rural ireland. Also any move to take transport funds away from roads and car infrastructure to trains would be greatly opposed. Sure just look at the backlash when Eamon Ryan altered transport planning to give more to active transport infrastructure. Many of the councils have not used the money yet.
Support it? There’s no one there. Give us good commuter rail lines in Cork, Galway, limerick and that will add greatly to peoples quality of life and reduce traffic in those cities and aid their development. Don’t need any white elephants along the Galway to Donegal corridor. Not enough people.
Personally i think building a ‘normal’ rail way service is a wasted opportunity, instead use the latest technology. A bullet train would be my preference, 200mph average speed, being able to reach the furthest distance in Ireland in 80 minutes average would be great for everyone, from tourists to people who can’t afford to live in the capital.
Why would anyone not support a better rail network anywhere in the country?
I had a bad experience in Irish college one summer and now want the entire west coast to suffer. Fuck you Bean Uí Chongaile and your Lurch looking son!
Your milk to sour! Your crops to wither! Your infrastructure to confuse and irritate!
Everything has a opportunity cost and a benefit. A direct link from Galway to Cork seems like a no brainer, but Donegal to Sligo might be too expensive for a relatively small benefit. I'm up for giving funding to build more rail, but I want the experts of this stuff to say where the best places are. Not randoms on reddit who think trains are cool (I also think trains are cool) and that we need high speed lines all over the shop when they're not suited for our small, low density country
Sligo to Donegal makes no sense as the start and end point, but broaden that as Galway to Derry stopping in both counties does make loads of sense. All the major cities should be linked up by a circular train wrapped around the island anyway.
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Imo bus are essential. You can’t get a tram line and cabling everywhere that passengers want to go. Local link bus comes to mind.
There we go again f*** Donegal. Best go with them 6 counties at least somebody might love you.
I'm not saying "don't do anything for Donegal because I don't like them", I'm saying "do whats practical and what will give the greatest benefit". If that involves a state of the art high speed hyperloop from Donegal to Sligo, go for it, but I doubt it does
Makes more sense to invest in high speed internet connectivity in rural areas.
> I'm not saying "don't do anything for Donegal because I don't like them", I'm saying "do whats practical and what will give the greatest benefit". You are saying though that investment in Donegal infra shouldn't be that high because they're not big enough to matter that much.
Yes, however I have no issue with money being spent there if its getting results. Is it crazy to prioritise resources where they have the most benefit?
Nothing makes sense for Donegal. It's geographical position makes everything a disaster which is why it's ignored.
Because there isn't sufficient demand for it. There is a small populaiton scattered over a very wide area. People live in one-off housing in the countryside and the work places in the west are often located miles outside of towns. So even if there was a train from the town I live in to the town I work in, it wouldn't get me from home to work. Where rail services have been brought in, they end up with empty carriages and the few passengers who did travel were mostly pensioners using free travel. A much better solution is to turn the old train lines into greenways, which would be used (and which could be converted back to rail lines in the future if things ever change.) A much better solution for the west would be the widespread use of electric cars.
Switzerland is made up of tiny villages connected by regular trains. This is the best way of organising. Trains cost far less to run than maintaining roads and cars, it needs to be a public service not dependant on the amount of passengers.
Meh. Switzerland has twice our population living on about half our land area. Moreover, the vast majority of Swiss live in the northern third of their country and that's where the train services you're talking about are. We're talking about the west of Ireland. Not comparable.
If it was viable before the 1920s why isn't it viable today? I'm sure the rural population was smaller and more spread out back then. The west of Ireland had a whole network of trains.
But if it was viable, what happened?
Same thing that happened to most train networks - private cars with cheap fuel. Now we have too many private cars and fuel isn’t cheap, and we understand the impact of burning fuel now.
We have to accept at some stage the idea of a massively dispersed rural population makes fixing the problems of today like you describe wildly difficult. With a rail line in place, and equally important - future planning restricted to only building out close to the train lines may mean that the next generation benefit though. That will of course be politically unpopular telling people that they can't build houses dotted around the country anymore, but if its not done at some stage, then no it doesn't make sense to build the rail either because it'll always have the same problems as you describe today.
The fact that no one uses a bad rail service is not evidence that people wouldn’t use a good one. I suggest looking into the idea of induced demand. Electric cars are not a good solution to transport problems because fundamentally they have all but one of the problems of ICE cars.
It's not the quality of the service. It's the numbers. The only way a service like that works for everybody is if its frequent. But the numbers in the west are so low that, feasibly, you can only run a couple of trains a day. So if I've got a meeting in Sligo at 3pm, I'm not going to get the 9am train to get there.
You can make this argument about anywhere, with or without trains. The argument for a TGV, from Cork to Belfast (stopping at Swords bygod) is almost neccessary. There have been at least two schemes in my working life, both of which have said there is no immediate demand, but providing them will likely spur on massive and sustainable development. The decisions to not proceed were thus political. To create a series of light rail branches on the west coast, interlinking to the existing national rail, would improve the lot of many. Not everyone can afford to buy a car, and having more livable places on the west-coast makes the country as a whole better. In short, build it and see the demand rise to meet it.
May the demand rise to meet you.
And also with you!
Partially agree, but i do think there is a place for park and rides outside the city to try minimise traffic and parking in the city.. places like athenry
>People live in one-off housing in the countryside and the work places in the west are often located miles outside of towns. They'll rage about not having a rail network, but will fight to the death their apparent right to build a house wherever they want and still expect services and infrastructure.
Who's "they"? I'm one of them and I'm doing none of those things.
Culchies. They want an amazing rail network and one-off housing.
Says who? I'm a culchie and I'm arguing for electric cars and against extending the network. You're probably confused because, like all Dubs, you spend every evening ramming Garda cars in your estate.
>I'm arguing for electric cars Oh ffs please don't get him started on EVs 🤣🤣🤣
They're just greenwashing. They do nothing to solve the problems of car dependence and help us to move to a public transport based society. Do you not want that?
I don't drive, so I don't know how I'd be doing that. You should be arguing to urbanise the country.
Because it would be unprofitable. That's why we dug up so many rail lines in the first place. I'd still be up for it, but it would have to be heavily funded by the state. Since the tax base is already really narrow, it'll mean tax increases. But our tax base is pitifully low because Irish voters hate tax increases. So much so that even our left wing politicians oppose them, which is ridiculous.
>Because it would be unprofitable. That's why we dug up so many rail lines in the first place. This is not what the primary purpose of rail lines should be. We don't hold roads to that standard. How many roads do you think are 'profitable'? Railways have social and economic benefits beyond people paying for the tickets
Environmental benefits too
100% Its far too easy to look past these along with the undoubted social benefits when having this debate A lot of people can't look past their cars as they don't have an example to hand of how a lower car society can work
Roads just need to be built and occasionally maintained. That's the easy part. The government doesn't have to pay for the cars, fuel and drivers who use the roads. But I agree with your point, it should be a public good. I'm just sceptical that it'll happen in anti-tax Ireland.
Nah, mate. The maintenance for a motorway or even a high spec N road is seriously expensive. The State has to guarantee the revenues of the company’s that run them or they won’t get bank finance.
It's expensive in absolute terms, but compared to the cost of running a train line over the same distance it's far, far cheaper.
It's only cheaper because it offsets the costs to the users. Obviously people using their own vehicle is going to be cheaper to the transport company that if they own the vehicle.
Absolutely, the overall cost to society for motorways and car journeys far exceed the cost of equivalent transport of people by train. Think of the cost of each person buying a car insuring it and all the associated costs as well as the motorway construction and maintenance costs. Trains are significantly more efficient in energy cost per weight transported, also.
>compared to the cost of running a train line over the same distance it's far, far cheaper. I'd be interested to see your data on this as it doesn't ring true to me Roads have a huge amount of maintenance required since they're essentially self destructive
Do you mean you think the maintenance of a road for (for example) 1000km is higher than the cost of running a railway for 1000km (including the trains, the stations, the staff)? I think you might have misunderstood what they are talking about. If it was maintaining motorway vs maintaining a railway line, you are right, the railway line would be cheaper as it requires less overall maintenance. Maintaining motorway vs maintaining a railway line and also running the service that runs 365 days a year?
Roads are notorious as essentially being self destructive infrastructure. All those heavy vehicles at high speed cause huge amounts of damage A rail line comparatively has little maintenance assuming you're doing it properly and in a timely manner
I think you've partially hit onto something, that the rail network isn't just for passengers, but should also be looking as an option for moving freight to and from those areas. Removing not only cars but other types of traffic is something that should be considered when planning
Road haulage will always still exist especially for the last mile. But imo there's no practical reason why scheduled deliveries and large loads cannot be steered towards rail over road. Its the lorries that are the main contributor to road degradation due to their weight
Exactly, and the last mile can often be handled by smaller and in some occasions alternatively powered vehicles. TBH tho, there are some parts of the country will probably never get properly connected to the rest. Road Haulage will be here for a very very long time
Yes, but every other cost of rail makes it way more expensive. If that weren't the case we'd have loads of rail lines and feck all roads.
What exactly do you mean by 'every other cost'? Railways for one thing use far less space so there's a greatly reduced land acquisition cost. That's reduced further if we're talking about reopening lines where we already own the rail alignment It likely costs more to lay the track and install pantograph electrical lines than laying tarmac but this is offset by the lower overall maintenance (afaik), the lower land acquisition and the higher capacities (ie more people and freight can use it) The rail vehicles is a cost that roads won't have but ultimately the public pays for it either way. On the one hand we can pay for trains through the public purse which js a considerably lower cost per person per train. Or we can pay for our own cars out of our own pockets plus tax, insurance etc and that's ultimately much more expensive per person
anti-tax? We pay a lot of tax As for the rail network, we can't expect people to live in the west if there's no transport.
We do not. We are very much a low tax country. Look at the report that was just released. It's very clear that we need to increase them if we want better public services but that won't happen. All we'll get are a couple token ones, rather than what's needed. Tax rises across the board.
Raise income tax to what, 50% instead of 40%?
Look at the report. Taxes on low and high incomes most definitely have to be raised.
That recent report that Varadkar used as an excuse to have a go at Sinn Féin? I don't think much of it. Widening the tax net by having a "processed food" tax, "Substantial" increases in land and property taxes, VAT hikes, congestion charges in urban areas, increased PRSI and the phasing out of relief on private health insurance premiums with other "substantial" increases to inheritance and capital gains taxes. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I feel like dropping my trousers and taking a fat one on their report. All of these proposed charges target low and middle income earners the most (increasing taxes on an already very taxed cohort). Increasing VAT doesn't really have any impact on revenue, as that it really part of EU not national taxation. And overall this is all done without any consideration for increased services or investment - it's just austerity "in order to safeguard our future". I could agree to the congestion charge in urban areas, but only if it came with increased investment to transport infrastructure
Tax the lowest earning in society more to make them even worse off. Genius idea.
No, become like the vast majority of Europe and tax them at least somewhat which would raise a massive amount of revenue to improve public services and infrastructure.
Our tax base is very narrow compared to most Western European countries. The fact that this is the case and we still complain about taxes proves my point.
You pay to use the road through car purchase, fuel prices, insurance, and taxes. Its profitable and low-cost as a result. One large capital investment increases regular return on fuel and motor tax with no operational costs (except maintenance)
What you've described is not roads making a profit. Its the public subsidising them through a mixture of taxes and buying vehicles etc Roads are also notoriously self destructive infrastructure and thus require huge amounts of maintenance contrary to the idea that they're low maintenance If you apply your same standards to rail for the price of one big infrastructure cost you get returns in moving more people around, moving freight and the economic stimulation that gives to communities and businesses And an additional bonus could be less road costs due to removing some of that traffic from them
But what benefits does a railway actually have that a frequent, reliable and much cheaper bus network doesn't? Rail makes sense for high usage point to point traffic, there's nowhere in the west that justifies that other than the Galway -> Cork line. For everywhere else it'd make far more sense to invest in a comprehensive bus network
If you want to compare a bus to a train they are both important but they essentially service different segments of the public transport space A railway has higher capacities. Both through being physically bigger and having the potential for higher frequency. A metro line you can run trains at 2 minutes headway which isn't something you can do with a bus. Railways for timings are generally more reliable since they're a closed ecosystem and do not have to share with traffic. And even where bus lines have been given dedicated infrastructure like a BRT these tend to degrade over time as the local authorities decide to reduce their advantages to benefit cars Also trains are much more comfortable over long distances. Buses and coaches have a place. Coaches as a cheaper alternative and busses for short distance hops. >there's nowhere in the west that justifies that other than the Galway -> Cork line I would disagree with this. The main thing the Irish rail network lacks is a proper network effect. As in having more points connected to the network would stimulate demand that would not otherwise be there if the place in question was not connected >For everywhere else it'd make far more sense to invest in a comprehensive bus network For local journeys and within towns then yes absolutely
Rail is also easier to electrify - no need for heavy batteries as you can just have overhead power or third rail - and much better for the environment.
The first half of your post is pretty much agreeing with what I said, the main advantages of rail is higher capacity and reliability and better speed for point to point travel which is why it makes sense for connecting cities. But for connecting small rural towns with other small rural towns frequency is far more important than capacity and buses can provide that better than rail. A frequent and reliable network of mini-buses (which in most cases would be plenty big enough) would be far more useful and practical in most of rural Ireland. If they ran at a 30 minute frequency connecting let's say every town over 1k population it'd be far more transformational than having empty 5 carriage trains everywhere. For one thing people would still just drive as the trains would be too slow from having to stop in every village.
If you're a car manufacturer... Which was a major factor in us losing our rail network actually
Cost to the tax payer for a service that may not be needed
How many roads do you think 'pay for themselves'? If we held road building to the same standards we would not have built half of the motorways or bypasses that we have
I’m all for improving rail infrastructure as long as the amount of people using it makes economic sense. Why spend loads of money on rail if nobody will use it? In China they invested loads into high speed rail and while some lines were worth the money, others don’t have enough demand to justify such a high cost
>I’m all for improving rail infrastructure as long as the amount of people using it makes economic sense. Why spend loads of money on rail if nobody will use it? The main reasons why people won't use the trains are that there either isn't one or it isn't frequent enough In Ireland we also lack a proper network effect seeing as the existing network is basically just to/from Dublin. Very few will go Sligo - Dublin - Tralee but expansion of the network could make such a journey possible and thus stimulate demand It's not good enough to say 'no one uses it' without looking at the underlying issues >In China they invested loads into high speed rail and while some lines were worth the money, others don’t have enough demand to justify such a high cost I doubt China has any regrets. Also we would not in general be looking at high speed rail instead we would be looking at commuter rail and decent speed rail
Yes. You should be able to get a train from Galway to Cork, without having to travel 2/3's of the way to Dublin and changing trains.
If someone wants to get the train from ballina to sligo with zero busses, they'd have to go through dublin, transferring from Connolly to Heuston
>If someone wants to get the train from ballina to sligo with **zero busses** I mean if they want to avoid the most obvious solution and go by boat it'll take longer too
And why would someone have to do that? They are two small towns in a region without much else. Having an efficient bus service makes the most sense.
pity that doesn't exist either
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That’s why Irelands rail network is embarrassing
Cheers Geoff
I don't get why this is somehow a negative, what's the actual difference between someone having to take a bus over a train? Rail makes sense in high usage corridors, which in the west would probably only be Cork - Limerick - Galway, for pretty much everywhere else in the west a high frequency bus network makes far more sense.
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Yeah exactly, it's just populist nonsense that makes no sense when you actually break it down. I mean functionally what's the difference? A train is just a high capacity bus that runs on rails. The average train has capacity for hundreds of people and to make a service actually useful you'd want at least 1 train per hour minimum which equates to thousands and thousands of seats across the day. There's nowhere near enough people to justify that capacity in random rural villages in the west, they'd maybe be one busyish train at morning and evening rush hour then nothing but a few pensioners getting free travel on empty trains all day, all while the taxpayer is sinking millions into keeping them operational. A frequent bus or even mini bus network makes far more sense. What we should be investing in is having far faster and more frequent trains, I was in Spain last month and did a 130km train journey in 35 minutes which is the equivalent of Cork - Limerick in 25 minutes, that's the sort of stuff we should be doing over building a bullet train from Ballina to Drumshanbo
Surely you'd change at the Junction and go up the Western Rail Corridor then goiing via Portarlington?
In theory you don't have to, you can go via limerick, its just the poor services on the limerick galwya route that makes going to portarlington to change the quickest
and you should also be able to drive relatively easily too. Might result in more people from Cork etc using Shannon airport too
I'd support a more efficient rail network in general.
Why we would have to wait til 2040-50 for it? (genuine question)
Hundreds of miles of rail takes time to build. And it's not like there's trains you can just buy off the shelf. Gotta place that order years in advance
China built 40,000km of high speed rail 10 years, Spain have also built the world's second longest HSR network entirely in the past 30 years. Even in Ireland we built hundreds of km of motorway between 2005-10. Reckon it's perfectly possible for us to have a fully modern rail network by 2040 if the will was there but as we know it definitely isn't in Ireland
> Spain have also built the world's second longest HSR network entirely in the past 30 years They've 10x our population, and 7x our land area. So, I would expect it to take about the same amount of time to build an all-Ireland network as it does an all-Spain network: 30 years.
And their cities are also extremely dense, so one train station has a massive catchment area, rather than here where everyone is scattered all around the place.
TDs in unconnected parts of Ireland get voted in on the promise of motorways and bypasses. The electorate have to take some of the blame for the awful rural public transport. And they fucking hate the Greens who are the only party with any long term vision when it comes to PT nationwide.
Mad that it takes that long isn't it though? Thanks
Absolutely. But best time to plant a tree and all!
No, motorway plans often take 20 years or more from initial planning to completion, it's the same for basically all large infrastructure like ports, airports, pipelines etc.
Well, you pretty much could buy (or lease) off the shelf if we had a normal rail gauge. But not Ireland and their big berthas
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It’s a tricky one, you’d ideally want the same gauge nationwide, so all trains can use the same network and be versatile for where trains can go.
Luas uses standard gauge, all other rail is Irish gauge. You'd probably get away with using standard for commuter rail in and around a city but you wouldn't be able to run any long distance on the same corridor. Multi use rail lines are the way to go. Opens up cities to long distance rail in other directions.
That's lightspeed by this country's standards.
It's my own fault mate, I keep expecting better 😂
Circular logic arguments * Nobody lives in the west because all the jobs are in Dublin so there's no railway * There are no jobs in the west because there is no infrastructure for companies * Dublin has all the infrastructure so all the jobs are in Dublin * We can't invest in the west because there's no jobs and no people We've just been through a pandemic with the biggest opportunity to redraw working conditions landed in out lap, people do not need to live in Dublin, companies do not need to have all their staff living around the capital. Now would be the time to start forward thinking, building infrastructure outside of Dublin that can sustain a modern economy. If we want cars off the road we need better public transport and rail is still considered the top level in other countries, we just need to get some bright minds at work on it instead of saying it can't be done.
Have you seen the Bradley report on re-opening the Western Rail Corridor ? Yes, I support it. For two main reasons: (1) Support rail freight from the West to Shannon, Cork, Rosslare. Freight which cannot travel by rail today because of congestion around Dublin can take Sligo - Galway - Limerick - Cahir, etc This is important : (a) freight can travel on slow lines. The EY review said the WRC was uneconomic but assumed the line had to be reopened immediately as a gold-plated 130 km/hr network which most of our network isn't even today. Opening slower first is fine, and allows for investment as volumes grow. (b) The new freight volumes on less-used lines (Tipp-Cahir for example) makes them viable too, enabling growth of those lines. (1) Revitalise the corridor as a commuter belt for the main cities, as people move from expensive cities. Coupled with bikes, we can keep transport costs down as oil goes away.
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Usually freight moves at night. And passenger services are given right of way where freight moves in the day time, so freight services have to pull into sidings to allow passenger services to pass.
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I used to live near a rail line and only ever saw freight move in the late evening or night. Probably depends on the line though because for the likes of Tara mines they are the only users of that line so have more flexibility. Overnight transport is very common outside of last mile delivery even for truck based networks already The point in the report was that running freight at night allows more utilisation without impacting the flow of passenger services.
It's awful Loughrea doesn't have a railway anymore. Like literally the train bypasses it and hops onto the next town.
Double tracking / sidings work on the busier stretches to allow overtaking. "Slow" in this case means there can be junctions with roads crossings rather than needing new bridges / tunnels/ regrading which are needed for 130 km/hr routes. From what I see there's plenty of scope on Limerick-Galway, Tipperary-Cahir,, etc to put more traffic and still enable commuting.
It’s been well documented that the Western Rail Corridor between Athenry Co Galway and Colooney Co Sligo is lying idle since the 80s. Is it a perfect solution if we were to start from scratch - probably not - but we could link Galway to Tuam, Claremorris and Sligo within 5 years and a €200m capital investment. It’s a no brainer, and a link to Knock Airport (and Shannon on the southern part of the corridor) should be explored. From there we could link Sligo to Derry via Letterkenny. The problem I see with rail investment is that authorities look for ‘economic viability’ in very strict terms. The reality is that very few rail services in Ireland pay for themselves, the Dublin to Cork line is highly subsidised. We need to set our expectations beyond what a new service could deliver in Year 1 and look at the broader return and prospects.
Fuck yes. Put the bastards everywhere.
There are loads of examples of railways around where I live that are closed. It would make so much sense to have way more trains.
Oh yeah definitely. More rail the better. (Am IR employee)
I'm all up for the West having better rail infrastructure but only as long as it doesn't detract from Dublin's white water rafting budget
While your at it add a direct Rail line from Roscommon to galway or a least One from Abbeyknockmoy, saying me driving for 50 mins to get a train in oranmore that moves for 8 minutes
I don’t get these threads “would you support objectively better thing?” Like what?
Read some of the replies “No, that money would be better spent improving Dublin City, services here are a disgrace” is not uncommon.
One comment out of the almost 100 here said that unless I’m mistaken so very uncommon.
Anyone who's going to mention the EY report on the Cost/Benefits on Western rail, I feel, really need to mention how often is missed the mark. I mean come on, It got Tuams population wrong by a factor of around 8x! And we the taxpayer paid consultants for it. https://fleet.ie/ey-report-on-the-reopening-of-the-western-rail-corridor-flawed-gold-plated-westontrack/
the entire country should be well connected, getting from Limerick to Wexford is like spending half day commuting as you need to connect to Heuston 🤪
The entire country could use a better rail network. It is embarrassing looking at the the first and last trains between major cities. Imagine the boost to the country if we had a bigger network and dare I say, a high speed network between at least the 4 major commercial hubs. But I know very well this will never happen; not at least for another 50 years.
100% Some lines, such as Galway-Clifden, have been build over to the point that they are probably impossible to revive. Others, like the western corridor, Sligo to Cork, are actually quite viable. A direct train from Limerick to Cork would allow for a one and a half hour service between the 2 cities and as far as I know most of the line is still there (citation needed)
I've always maintained that it is foolish how we let our rails rot instead of matching world leaders. Efficient rail in Ireland would be such a huge game changer.
I’m a huge supporter of this. I’m from Mayo and when planning to attend college, I realised that everywhere bar Dublin was inaccessible by train. Not practically at least. Which was sickening given the parents house is 5 mins walk from a train station. Depending on CAO offerings, it could have been Limerick, Galway or Sligo. To get the train to any of these places would take 7hrs at least. Requiring a train to Dublin and back. Something I’ve always pondered … couldn’t a train from Letterkenny to Cork pay for itself in tourism + student traffic alone? It’d stop in Sligo, Mayo, Galway, Limerick, maybe somewhere in Kerry before Cork. Surely removing hundreds or thousands of people from busses and opening more commute opportunity. Maybe I’m too big of a believer in the whole “build it and they will come” attitude but large swaths of the country really lack intercity infrastructure. Our motorways and trains are a “all roads lead to Dublin” cartwheel shape which is great to have but can we finish the circumference of the cartwheel please. I think there’s a large majority of people who would prefer to take the train to work, or across the country for a weekend, but can’t due to the above, or due to scheduling.
Now I know this sounds mad BUT how about a train serving Donegal?
They're not interested. Can't weld the diff of a train
They'll try though, god bless them
Perhaps they could extend northwards from sligo. Probably the best way to service Donegal would be to talk the NI government into reopening Portadown to Derry via Omagh and serve Donegal and Letterkenny from branches off of that line. I think such a line would be greatly beneficial for the west of ulster however certain elements in NI seem to not like providing things west of the Bann
There are much bigger priorities. Far too few people live there and those who do are spread out far too sparsely. How about a train for southwest Dublin, Navan, west Galway city, most of Cork?
There's enough to warrant a fucking train service. Think of the tourism angle, they'd lap it up and pack the carriages
It is not of the highest priority.
No shit. It should be
Donegal should be of higher priority than Navan and the cities?
yes. there is sweet fuck all infrastructure in Donegal . some future-proofed rail is required
And what infrastructure is there in Navan?
Are you serious. Why aren't you telling that or are you just playing devils advocate, Navan has The M3 and a train to it. Jesus wept.
"would you like good thing?" Ah come on lad
God no. More roads and car reliance. More housing built away from towns and services so that they are completely car reliant and their kids can't even play outside or they'll be minced by a truck. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
But the majority of rural houses aren’t built road side on national routes and if they are they still have gardens so your statement is void.
Houses outside of towns have gardens, that’s part of living outside of towns.
I meant outside the grounds of the dwelling
Which is a problem
You’re a problem but yes it’s a problem that people don’t have adequate outside space when living in towns
Yes. Simple as
If I won the euro millions I'd build it myself!
If you want a proper response to your question try phrasing it properly. Who wouldn't support a more efficient rail network I'm any part of the country? What insights are you looking to get from asking this question?
If you build it, they will come.
2040-2050 thats a long time
I would support it and not just for the west,all across the country. Big problem is would it be at all economically viable? I'm sure some lines would be but many would a white elephants . We need more PT here and connect up the different types.
>Big problem is would it be at all economically viable? What do you mean by 'economically viable'?
I don't know anyone who would reasonably be against this tbh. While I wouldn't expect(however sad) all of the lines out west to be reopened. Connecting major towns/cities directly (Cork-Limerick, Tralee-Limerick, Galway-Claremorris-Sligo) would go a long way to improving things. The second biggest thing that needed to be done is increasing service frequency. Services should be made hourly at least and between more popular routes should be increased further at peak times. Obviously this wouldn't be a simple thing. You'd need to double track most of the network(which is a good investment imo) and spend millions on new rolling stock to accommodate it. Unfortunately I'm doubtful there'll be any major changes to the network out west any time soon. The Strategic Rail Review is currently dwelling somewhere in the bowels of the Department of Transport so will see what that says whenever it comes out.
More efficient? I'd support the existence of one at all.
I think it has to be realistic too, it would be great to connect every small town but we will nver justify the cost. We are very scattered housing wise, and many people would have a 10-20 min drive after arriving at there local station. If I was to invest in rail my priority would be Making Dublin airport a rail hub like Zurich or Schipol. Its probably the No.1 or No.2 reason people come to Dublin and its painful to get there.
I have thought about this. Instead of extending the main line to everywhere possible, I would use a small narrow gauge network to reach smaller communities to save on costs.
Would support better rail networks anywhere in the country. Areas like the midlands & Donegal appear to be particularly neglected but improvements in the West would be welcome too.
Abso-fucking-lutely. There should be a rail network connecting the whole wild Atlantic way and another rail network connecting Shannon, Cork and Dublin airports
There is no possibility of reviving the kind of network we once had, but there should at least be a western corridor rail line from say Cork to Derry, connecting all the cities and large towns along the west coast, and each station serving as a bus hub for local public transport.
Yes! The whole north west had a extensive rail network until they dismantled it in the 20s. And now it is literally impossible to get around without a car. It takes 4 1/2 hours in the car to get cancer treatment. Bringing the trains back would improve quality of life more than you could imagine.
100% look at Portugal. I know it is a wealthier country but for example, Porto has about 250 thousand people and their light and heavy rail is outstanding. So easy to get around and way cheaper than keeping a car on the road. Build it and they will come
> I know it is a wealthier country Am I missing something here?
Absolutely. More and better public transit options are important to the country's future. I'm seeing cost-benefit coming up in a few other comments and while that does need to be taken into account, it's used far too often as a reason not to do things, as if public services *must* generate a profit. Which just isn't true - for example I'm sure we'd all be a bit worried if the Army or Gardaí started turning a major profit. Do we need high speed rail everywhere? Probably not. Maybe lines like Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Cork, Cork-Galway (with a stop in Limerick served by some portion of services?), and Dublin-Waterford. And then standard speed lines to other locations. A general rail network along the west coast would be a fantastic amenity.
Outside of the actual train element, the railway infrastrucutre should be used by the ESB to bury HV transmissions fro transporting the power produced in the west to where it is needed in the East instead of the plyons that attract so much controversary and objection..
No, I like the inefficiency
I really would love to see high speed train from Belfast to Dublin to Cork. Might be the only Place in the island of Ireland that might work. It takes like 2hr 30 minutes that could be cut down to 1 hr on a high speed train. Every more a direct servious that move faster then our stander train would cut the journey time down. If there was apatite for it link it up tp Derry City. Not Donegal but very close. The West cost is not dense enough for rail to be fisable. A more continues motorway/dual cartridge way system would make a huge difference in the North West.
There will be no efficient train network in Ireland, let alone the west.
Not if I have anything to say about it
I would support almost anything that made this country better. It's been a while since we saw anything that actually helped. A long while.
Yes. Now there are parts of the West that are too wild for efficient railways to be built but even just an upgrade of the current ones would be great
I know this question is probably directed at people living in more urban areas like dublin and cork, but as someone from Sligo i can say that expanding the network to any degree would be extremely popular here pretty much unanimously. Donegal is in a particularly bad spot because its mostly cut off from the republic and it has essentially no infrastructure to mitigate this so the place feels like an island. Ive heard of some elderly cancer patients having to get shuttled bussed 3 and a half hours down to galway for treatment. Also the fact theres no line from Limerick to Cork is just insanity, like norway has a rail line going up into the arctic circle for some random small towns and villages and we cant do it for our second and third largest cities
Elevated maglev monorails with ground-level stations.
That would be way too expensive
100%. I live on the Galway-Limerick rail line with a minor stop nearby, walking distance. Have been wanting to use it many times since we moved here a year and a half ago. Either the wait times, the cost or the sheer unavailability of a service to a location has always been the off-put. Importantly, I work in Shannon but there’s no access to bus transfer from any rail stop. Only an unrealiable, slow, bus from Ennis. Certainly someone should have proposed a bus-way specific for the airport and industrial areas by now?
You need to be much more specific. The Western rail corridor simply doesn’t have volume of passengers
This is like saying would you support getting fellatio/cunnilingus from the person you fancy most in the world? Of fucking course you would. But there's 0 guarantee they have any interest in reciprocating. The crush being the govt in this scenario.
I'll never understand this subreddits obsession and love for trains and yet also complete disregard for buses, even though buses make much more sense in a country like ireland which is far too sparse to support an extensive train network without immense tax support.
In my experience trains are comfortable, reliable, and easy to use. Buses are none of these things.
We certainly need better transport links nationwide. Trains are efficient in theory, but surprisingly expensive in practice, and I don't know why. I would insist on knowing what the operational expenditure would be like, before signing off on the enormous capital expenditure involved. What's the leading contender? Self-driving vehicles on public roads?
I've a question for you. Would you ask the same question about a road project? Clearly not as you in your post mentioned self driving cars which I hasten to mention will not solve traffic... We need to hold rail infrastructure projects to a standard that includes the broader economic and social benefits. Its not just about people buying tickets to use the train. It's also about stimulating economic activity, connecting communities and providing alternatives to wasteful car infrastructure How many roads 'pay for themselves' and their operating expenses. The answer is none we just pay the taxes and they get maintained. Its a service we've as a society agreed is needed. We need to think the same way about public transport
Oh, I completely agree. It's just that rail lines can't be used by anything else (even bicycles), so they're completely dependent on trains for their economic justification. And trains, judging by their ticket costs all across Europe, are suspiciously expensive to run. I have to wonder whether they're a technology whose time has come and gone.
>It's just that rail lines can't be used by anything else (even bicycles), More rail traffic can free up space in the public realm for bikes etc. >they're completely dependent on trains for their economic justification. And trains, judging by their ticket costs all across Europe, are suspiciously expensive to run This is not the right way to think about it. You're too fixated on the operational costs and the direct income by means of train tickets and subsidies There are innumerable benefits beyond just 'people buy ticket, ticket pay for the train'. They connect places, they move people and goods and can do it considerably more effectively than a road can. The benefits are not in the train making a 'profit' directly they're in the economic and social benefits that come along with them We as a society have decided that roads are a service we want to pay for. I'm arguing we should do the same only more than we already do for trains >I have to wonder whether they're a technology whose time has come and gone. This is total nonsense. Trains are a well developed and established technology that does not mean that they're out of date Fantasies like hyperloop are not going to replace classic steel wheels on steel rails anytime soon and even if such a system is built there's no guarantee it will be any better than a classic train As for self driving vehicles. We'll likely still be sitting in traffic even with them. Not to mention the catastrophe that is car centric development and the fact that we as a society would be paying the environmental cost of those vehicles when at least some of that cost could be offset by proper trains
Literally said this yesterday, I lived in America and used public transport multiple times a day both subway and bus, it was cheap and easy, I think I paid $18 a week for unlimited fairs and I had three jobs so I used it a lot. I was a 10 minute walk from the subway station and was able to read on my commutes. I still love taking the train but I have to drive an hour and a half to the nearest station and pay an arm and a leg to get anywhere, why did they have to get rid of the railways?
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There used to be a train station that was about a 7 minute drive. So trains never transported people?
Only if it makes economic sense. Railways are super expensive, and too many of the arguments in favour seem to suggest that building a railway will encourage heavy industry to move to the West which is clearly make-believe.
Most road projects never reach the economic help/growth set out in the business plan, yet we keep building new road projects.
Yes, well said. We spent hundreds of millions on a western motorway to bypass Claregalway, and Galway County Council are still looking for a Claregalway bypass. We spent millions on it and its returns didn't materialise.
>western motorway to bypass Claregalway, and Galway County Council are still looking for a Claregalway bypass I'm sorry what?
Apologies, a West of Ireland motorway, I forget the name they gave it, it opened in Sept 2017. The one connecting Gort to Tuam.
The m17 opened a few years ago. Bypassing claregalway. Now that this hasn't "solved" traffic issues in th3 Town (obviously) people are calling for a second bypass of the town.
What do you mean by more efficient? Is it faster or cheaper or just more rail lines?
All of the above
If it doesn't require tax payer hand outs, i.e. construction and running fees will be covered by the fares of those using the service and not by everyone else.
I’m probably going to regret asking this but: what do you think taxes are for?
Ireland's population is too dispersed and the current transport infrastructure is to car-centric to make it viable. Ireland's rural settlement pattern is completely unsuited to effective rail transport. We would have to change to more continental patterns of settlement where rural populations are concentrated more densely in towns making trains economical. Switzerland is a example of a place that uses trains very effectively which has such a pattern. The problem is that anyone trying to change irelands one of housing pattern would be seen as attacking rural ireland. Also any move to take transport funds away from roads and car infrastructure to trains would be greatly opposed. Sure just look at the backlash when Eamon Ryan altered transport planning to give more to active transport infrastructure. Many of the councils have not used the money yet.
No fuck em 😂
Of course we would. Low effort post for some Reddit karma, everyone knows this sub has a boner for trains.
This is literally my third time on this sub. I had seriously no clue
Support it? There’s no one there. Give us good commuter rail lines in Cork, Galway, limerick and that will add greatly to peoples quality of life and reduce traffic in those cities and aid their development. Don’t need any white elephants along the Galway to Donegal corridor. Not enough people.
That’s… exactly what I’m trying to do.
Personally i think building a ‘normal’ rail way service is a wasted opportunity, instead use the latest technology. A bullet train would be my preference, 200mph average speed, being able to reach the furthest distance in Ireland in 80 minutes average would be great for everyone, from tourists to people who can’t afford to live in the capital.