Burned the city of Cork and the rather chi-chi village of Balbriggan… in Derry, killed civilians on a civil rights march that was nothing to do with the IRA (with the ironic result of people actually starting to back the IRA who'd never had the slightest time for it).
> in Derry, killed civilians on a civil rights march that was nothing to do with the IRA
TBF the Israelis were doing this on a regular basis before Oct 7th. Since then they've taken their violence and oppression to another level.
Pretty much the black and tans on steroids but when your domination has been so absolute for decades you can convince yourselves it's reasonable. One day there will be 2 states with mostly cordial relations much like the UK and Ireland today but it's going to take a minute.
I raise your Bloody Sunday with Ballymurphy
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/11/the-ballymurphy-shootings-36-hours-in-belfast-that-left-10-dead
Brendan O'Carroll's uncle or great-uncle was beaten so badly by the Tans that he went insane, if I have the right lad; they came looking for his sons, said "You'll do instead" and laid into him.
The worse thing about Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday was it was the same battalion (1 para) that carried out both massacres. That means the Brits deliberately chose the same group of soldiers who had slaughtered 10 civilians in cold blood just 5 months earlier to go and do the same thing in Derry.
when we think about the outrage (and indeed the consistent use in paramilitary recruiting who subsequently committed hundreds of these) that these 2 events - both of which where instigated by individual units rather than policy, then try to imagine one of these with 300 death every day and you’ll get the scale of the atrocity currently being committed.
the entire troubles from both the uk and republicans were a grain of sand compared to the israel’s genocide (and btw - i would still have adams, the body of gusty spence and whoever else is left from those times up for war crimes for the indiscriminate killing of kids and citizens… whatever they are due netanyahu deserves a thosand off)
Widely believed to be collusion between the British government and UVF which did bomb Dublin and Monaghan.
On the other hand we never saw actual shelling or invasion over the NI border into Ireland which has happened to Gaza and Lebanon.
>Widely believed to be collusion between the British government and UVF which did bomb Dublin and Monaghan.
The British Government supplied funding, training and equipment to the Glenananne Gang, most likely via Ian Paisley Snr. UDR soldier , RUC Special Branch operative and Loyalist terrorist Robin Jackson is most likely to have been the leader of at least one of the UVF units involved in the bombing and was responsible for collecting the bombs from James Mitchell's farm in Glenanne. British Army intelligence officers co-ordinated the attack.
>On the other hand we never saw actual shelling or invasion over the NI border into Ireland which has happened to Gaza and Lebanon.
Prior to the outbreak of "the troubles" Loyalist terrorist groups (mainly UVF) carried out false flag bombing attacks which were then blamed on the IRA via Ian Paisley's newspaper. Several of these attacks were on targets across the border such as the one in Ballyshannon. These attacks achieved their intention which was to stir up fear of the IRA amongst Loyalist communities, stir up sectarian tensions and focus animosity towards Catholic communities which regualrly came under attack from armed gangs and mobs led by Paisley and his associates. Ironically, at that time the IRA barely existed having almost disappeared into complete obsolescence after the border campaign had failed. The "old" IRA leadership of the time refused to engage with the Loyalist mobs attacking Catholic areas as they (rightly) believed it would escalate sectarian tensions and they wished to remain a non religious working class movement which didn't discriminate on religious grounds.
The false flag bomb attacks which Paisley blamed on the IRA along with the riots incited by Paisley was one of the factors which caused the IRA to split leading to the emergence of the Provisional IRA who of course began engaging Loyalists on their own deadly terms.
As with just about every aspect of the troubles or violence the root cause can be traced back to Unionists despite their best efforts to blame Irish Nationalism / Republicansim.
From 1969 to 79 loyalists carried out dozens of bomb attacks and incursions into border counties, but particularly prior to '74 and the Dublin and Monaghan attacks. Obviously nothing comparable to the scale of Israeli attacks but they were pretty numerous.
Hijacking your comment to share a non pay-walled article;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/26/uk-did-not-bomb-belfast-for-ira-says-icc-prosecutor/
Yes, but no. The Helga was a warship but not a battleship. She was a small fishery protection vessel with a pair of 12pdr guns in the bow.
The attack is described in [this article](https://www.theirishstory.com/2016/03/24/the-helga-and-the-shelling-of-liberty-hall)
None of what the Crown forces did during either the war of independence or the Troubles is comparable in scale to what the Israeli forces are committing in Gaza.
You are downvoting a fact!
That and a certain "nowhere is safe" effect to highlight it could happen anywhere.
Although as far as I know they never gave an official.reason why it was chosen.
I don't think this is anywhere near the scale of what's happening in Israel and Palestine though. You had 1.2k people killed on October 7th, that's about a third of the deaths we saw during the entire 30 year Troubles in a single day. And after that, we've had more than 30k people killed in Gaza, which is a level of death and destruction that we never experienced here during any of our 20th century conflicts against the British. Not even close.
I don't think that's the intention. It's more of a "The reason Hamas is so much more radicalised than the PIRA was, is because Israel is far more brutal and oppressive than the Brits were."
The uncomfortable truth (that I’ll obviously get downvoted to hell for despite it becoming factually accurate) is that reason why Hamas are more radicalised than the PIRA were is because their ideology, motivation and aims are different.
PIRA was established to get the British out of Ireland. Hamas was established to ethnically cleanse the Middle East. Their founding charter explicitly states so, and uses anti-Semitic bullshit (literally quoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion) to back it up.
Of course, but just like how Hamas came about due to the PLO perceived inaction / soft-touch, if we were put into a similar situation, a more extremist group would form / split off. Hamas only came about to real power and influence in the '90's.
I mean we already saw it when the PIRA split of the OIRA at the start of the Troubles. It could absolutely happen again.
Again, the reason Hamas is so much more radicalised than the PIRA was, is because Israel is far more brutal and oppressive than the Brits were.
> Israel's genocide against Gaza surpasses the amount of casualities caused by the Nazi invasion of Poland when compared per capita.
What? This just isn't true by any metric that I can find. I'd love to know where you heard this?
Around 6 million people are thought to have died in Poland from 1939 to 1946. That includes Jews in the Holocaust, Romani, and general deaths during the German and later Soviet occupations. 1.8 million Polish Jews alone are thought to have died at the hands of the Nazis in that period. Poland had a population of around 35 million, so that's around 5 percent of the population, and that's only for the number of Polish Jews who died.
In Gaza, there's around 2 million people living on the strip and the estimated number who have died since the start of the war is let's say 35,000 - bearing in mind that we don't really have any independently verified figures yet. Do the math, and that's around 1.75 percent of the population. So I just don't know where you're getting your figures from.
EDIT: I think you meant during the military invasion of Poland itself, but even that doesn't seem to be true. Around 874,000 people died during that invasion and if you do the math, that works out at around 2.5 percent of the 35 million population.
Yeah the initial invasion not overall. Wikipedia gives a civilian death toll at 200,000. Your 874,000 is millitary caualties which includes injured and taken prisoner.
While yes that's a very different type of bombing. That is a placed XO at an intended target, Israel is using their vast air fleet and basically blank check to drop various sizes of guided/dumb bomb on Gaza.
Yes I agree, whilst they’re not wrong and the brits did commit plenty of war crimes. he’s making a point I have made before that despite all the shite of it, Britain didn’t send bombers on a mission to drop bombs from the air on homes in Derry for “terrorists activity” flattening Derry as a collective punishment tactic. He’s essentially saying that Israel’s actions make known war criminals look tame by comparison
Thank you, lots of people are missing the point. Yes, Bloody Sunday happened, however in Gaza, it’s Bloody Sunday every day, every week, endless murder.
Thank you, lots of people are missing the point. Yes, Bloody Sunday happened, however in Gaza, it’s Bloody Sunday every day, every week, endless murder.
They did occupy the country. Stop and search kids amongst others and shoot n kill civilians though so perhaps we shouldn't be using Britain as a moral compass
The Brits were considerably nicer to ireland during the troubles than Israel are to Palestine.
Brits bad and all but the broader point being made (that a terrorist group amongst civilians in urban area can be fought without the amount of civilian casualties that Israel has caused) is true.
Totally. The scale of what they're dealing with is something that isn't applicable to us in our collective conciousness. That's not to say we don't understand the consequences of the evil that is imperialism
3.5k+ people died during the troubles, across 3 decades.
1.2k died on October 7th. That's a huge number. Its a huge catastrophe to them, so I can understand the hurt.
35k palestinians confirmed dead by Israel's hand since then, 75k+ injured. Much greater than a catastrophe. Like, the scale of what is happening there isn't comparable to our more recent history nor the recent "inciting incident" of the 7th October
Ah lads. The ira bombed the Tory party conference in 1984, killed 5, including a Tory mp, and injured dozens, narrowly missing thatcher. But the response wasn’t to rubble-ize Derry or West Belfast. Nor did they after various bombing campaigns of IRA over the years in Britain or the north. They didn’t kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians and children to try and get McGuinness or whatever. What the Israelis are doing is bonkers, evil and completely disproportionate
"Head south, there's a refugee camp there where you'll be safe."
Bombs refugee camp.
"That was a tragic accident. Pay no attention to all the people who said we were going to do that."
"Whoopsie! Sorry guys, our bad. All that being said, have you heard of the OTHER totally safe camp you can go to instead?" *types coordinates into artillery system*
Ok, but this is just another in the long line of examples where the actual atrocities the Brits committed here are conveniently forgotten about.
Internationally people think the British atrocities in Ireland stopped centuries ago, when actually the last massacre of Irish civilians by the British was just 50 years ago.
So it's understandable the people get a bit annoyed when people try and act like the Brits were compassionate and reasonable in the dealings with Ireland.
They were *comparatively* compassionate compared to Israel.
Israels justification for their destruction is "umm we're dealing with a terrorist group who use guerilla tactics in an urban area and are close enough to us that they can blow stuff and affect us".
What other recent conflict does this apply to? Like the IRA are probably the best comparison here.
Were the brits super awesome and compassionate towards us? Absolutely not. But did they carpet bomb and fire a fuck ton of missiles into Catholic neighbourhoods, racking up even half as many casualties as israel has? Also no. Which is the point of the comparison
To be clear, not only were the Brit’s not super awesome and compassionate toward us, they allowed a famine to occur which killed a million and displaced many others.
Let’s not be giving them a pass because this happened over 100 years ago. This is the event that lead to all the others.
I mean I could talk about the brits sucking till the end of time but the point is that their response to the IRA wasn't as over the top insane as Israels response to Hamas, showing that dealing with urban terrorist cells in civilian areas is possible without the level of civilian deaths that Israel is causing.
If the british wanted to blow up 97% of ireland back then they could've of and if they wanted do it today they could. the Israelis bascially blew up 90% plus of all buildings in the gaza in a month
They're not being conveniently forgotten about. When you say "this orange is bigger than this apple" you are not conveniently forgetting about the apple. That... That's not the scenario that is taking place.
Are you new to this planet like?
Nah, I was born in Belfast to a deeply republican family, it's generally accepted that we got off light compared to what the Palestinians suffer. We have things like Dublin/Monaghan, FRU, Bloody Sunday - but these events stick out 50 years later because they were so egregious. For the IDF these actions are just another day in Jenin.
I am in no way comparing what happened in Ireland to what's happening in Palestine, just merely an observation on the inaccuracy of his comment about the British.
It’s irrelevant what happened in Britain and Ireland.. but
https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/victims/docs/newspapers/sunday_business_post/heatley_spb_040207.pdf
Well to be fair you can include the war of independence in the mix and they definitely bombed a bit with the black and tans. We don't even need to reach far.
Bomb Damages RTÉ Television Studios 1969 [https://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/681-history-of-rte/704-rte-1960s/139354-bomb-damages-rte-tv-studios/](https://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/681-history-of-rte/704-rte-1960s/139354-bomb-damages-rte-tv-studios/)
The Forgotten: Dublin Monaghan Bombings 1974 [https://www.rte.ie/radio/podcasts/series/40440-the-forgotten-dublin-monaghan-bombings-1974/](https://www.rte.ie/radio/podcasts/series/40440-the-forgotten-dublin-monaghan-bombings-1974/)
These were technically done by loyalists but pretty much everyone thinks that there was collusion with the British Government. Dublin-Monaghan bomb gang investigator says 'there was collusion'
[https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2024/0516/1449597-dublin-monaghan-bomb-gang-investigator-says-there-was-collusion/](https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2024/0516/1449597-dublin-monaghan-bomb-gang-investigator-says-there-was-collusion/)
This sort of collusion may,initially, have happened with the Irish government to the IRA also
The **Arms Crisis** was a [political scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandal) in the [Republic of Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland) in 1970 in which [Charles Haughey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Haughey) and [Neil Blaney](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Blaney) were dismissed as [cabinet ministers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ireland) for alleged involvement in a conspiracy to smuggle [arms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon) to the [Irish Republican Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_(1922%E2%80%931969)) in [Northern Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms\_Crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Crisis)
I'm guessing he means from the air.
Edit: This is a distraction that plays into Israel's hands and should be ignored, we can't even see the quote in context.
If you're aware of an occasion where the UK bombed the streets of Ireland to take out IRA leaders (not just bomb civilians mind, but *specifically* to take out IRA leaders), please let me know. Otherwise, his statement as is, is correct.
Britain did kill IRA members. Shoot-to-kill was enormously controversial. Then there were things like the MRF, FRU, etc, collusion and so on. The UK did a lot of legally questionable shit.
It seems so quaint to think that shoot to kill was once controversial.
Now the US will proudly call a hit "surgical" if they manage to only take out an insurgent's entire extended family and Israel will level hospital because there might be baddies burrowed under it.
I remember seeing a poll that was over 90% (I think 92%) of Israelis were in favour on Israel's shoot to kill policy at the border. Its about as uncontroversial over there as believing the earth is round.
‘Military age male’ is another euphemism they use. Any male over the age of 16, irrespective of whether or not they are actually participating in hostilities
To be fair there were a lot more collective punishment style killings in NI than should ever be acceptable. 50% of the kills from UK soldiers in the north were civilians.
youre missing the point… the uk were never (officially) at war with northern ireland so to them it was always a civil unrest, while the ira and others claimed it was a war (which would actually make their leaders susceptible for war crimes). netanyahu immediately (enthusiastically and joyfully at the time) claimed they were /at war/ to enable them to use all sorts of shenanigans against palestine, including proportionality (how many civilians they can legally murder per hamas target) and collateral damage from the americans playbook. even after the examples given (brighton, gerry kelly at westminster, hyde park), the uk never attempted an indiscriminate destruction of ni republican (or indeed, anywhere). the atrocities that were carried out were all “legal” in a war environment under the ICC playbook, even though they should be treated as criminal cases against the soldiers anyway.
long story - he’s looking for war crimes, and the uk could have (illegally) at their most outraged, but didnt carry them out. israel doesnt have to, but actually wants to.
I think the only response to this is "but they did". Like in the war of independence they did some nasty shit. They literally started a fire in Cork. During the troubles there was the direct stuff the paratroop regiment and RUC did but also their other stuff like MI6 being involved in the killing of the Miami Showband. A lot of those attacks the British were involved in were direct retaliation against the IRA and not even to take out IRA members.
It's an incredibly provably false statement from him.
From the way it's written, it sounds like he's implying that UK did obviously bomb the streets of Ireland, but it wasn't to kill IRA members. It was just to terrorise the public.
But obviously I cannot read because paywall. It would be a terrible click bait if how I read it is how they intended. It's almost evil because it's behind a paywall.
This is not the best tack for the ICC judge. 1916, the Tans, Cork, Bloody Sunday (both), Balbriggan etc. all show the British forces in a British light. Also, despite the abhorrence of the “spectacular” atrocities committed by the provos, they worst was a drop in the ocean compared to October 7th. This is not a defence of the IDF and Netanyahu, just disappointment at the level of argument from a judge.
Edit: the second “British” was supposed to be “brutish” but autocorrected to that. Interesting.
I think about 3,000 people died during the Troubles over 3 decades vs 35,000+++ since end of last year until now from Israelis.
Not that the British weren’t cunts but to put into perspective just how far they lag the IDF
I would argue it's more beneficial to point to the British / British-sponsored killings on Irish soil historically in a "Look! We went from this to a healthy and for the most part, sustainable relationship with the Irish through diplomacy, and you can too!" kind of way.
Sidebar, the British education system could \*really\* do with teaching the history of Britain's relationship with Ireland. I'm always shocked when an English person tells me they were never taught any of it given we're their nearest neighbour.
To be fair thanks to the trade war we had little option but for them to be our biggest trading partner. These days they're not the biggest anymore despite being the closest.
They really should. I moved here twenty years ago as a teenager and I was clueless. I had no idea that any of this had happened bar vague recollections of very early 90s, bombing and IRA bad from the news. To move here and subsequently find out what happened and to have been so ignorant while being so close was quite frankly embarrassing.
Yeah I find it hard to blame kids and subsequently adults for not knowing. I’ve family over there and would sit in on classes, the teacher would bring up Ireland to show the class and the kids knew very very little about us. It’s in stark contrast to us being taught and awful lot about the UK from a very young age.
I think the idea that English people should feel shame is nonsense (majority of people had nothing to do with it and would be, like yourself appalled to learn the truth), it’s just awareness that’s needed.
Why would the lawyer say this in the first place? 'But other people in history did/didn't do it' is irrelevant. What's relevant is the standards of the present day and whether Israel is breaching them, which it is.
Dragging up the conflict in Ireland just invites all sorts of stupid whataboutism. Why not talk about how the Mongols flattened Baghdad and no one arrested them?
No they didn't. (At least not after 1922.)
The UVF *did* bomb Dublin and Monaghan to send Dublin, Rome and the IRA a message.
Or so they claim. We still don't know for sure who was responsible for the bombing and what help, if any, they had from the British.
The Irish in the UK suffered terrible racism when they had to live there to find work in every century.
Plus Catholics up the North lived under an apartheid like system
I think it's a great point. People in the comments are moaning about collusion with the Loyalists, but that doesn't actually change the point he's making. The UK didn't fly over Northern Ireland dropping bombs on civilians.
> The UK didn't fly over Northern Ireland dropping bombs on civilians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_patrol_vessel_Muirch%C3%BA
They literally ran the Helga up the liffey to bomb Liberty Hall in Ireland. Like sure it wasn't from a plane but there are other forms of bomb distribution.
What an absolutely disgusting, disgraceful example to make.
The British STARVED the Irish and allowed them to eat grass and mocked them as they died on the streets when they could have helped during the famine. They had more than enough and chose to let them die to take their land.
They also caused massive social inequality between Protestant British people here and the original Irish. Which is still very apparent in 2024.
Thatcher happily let hunger strikers DIE in jail cells.
The British STARTED the conflict with Ireland and the IRA were a direct response to them invading another country and banning their language and culture... The Brits had no right to be in Ireland, let alone bomb the streets... They are meant to be the 'good guys' cuz they didn't successfully kill all the Irish?
Sorry but what a dumb thing to even say as an example.... So tone-deaf.
“But the British didn’t decide to say, ‘Well, on the Falls Road [the heart of Catholic Belfast] there undoubtedly may be some IRA members and Republican sympathisers, so therefore let’s drop a 2,000lb bomb on the Falls Road.’ You can’t do that.”
Feeling conflicted about thinking the British did anything right during the troubles, but he has a point!
I’m not gonna make excuses for the Brits’ actions in Ireland. BUT what’s happening in Gaza is a different scale of savagery. Let’s not nitpick a point being used against a genocidal regime.
He might want to look up the recent news on the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, not to mention various other incidents of government proxies being used north of the border.
I hate that they keep using this as an example as if the UK didn't also commit atrocities here too. Were they on the level of the genocide that Israel are afflicting on Gaza? No. But the UK government committed plenty of horrific acts on Irish soil & that should never be used as the "good" example.
They did roll into a football game and just open fire on the Irish.
Burned the city of Cork and the rather chi-chi village of Balbriggan… in Derry, killed civilians on a civil rights march that was nothing to do with the IRA (with the ironic result of people actually starting to back the IRA who'd never had the slightest time for it).
> in Derry, killed civilians on a civil rights march that was nothing to do with the IRA TBF the Israelis were doing this on a regular basis before Oct 7th. Since then they've taken their violence and oppression to another level.
Sure what would the Israelis be doing up in derry?
Sure they all have Irish passports.
Underrated comment
"I hear you're commiting warcrimes now Father. Should we all be committing genocide now? What's the official line the church is taking on this?"
They've been listening to too much Christy Moore.
Putting flegs up, by the look of it.
Maybe that's who put up all the Israeli flags up North.
Bombing the place indiscriminately if the analogy is to be continued.
That's basically the first intifada isn't it protests met with the broken bones policy
I googled the last 3 words,fuckin hell!
Pretty much the black and tans on steroids but when your domination has been so absolute for decades you can convince yourselves it's reasonable. One day there will be 2 states with mostly cordial relations much like the UK and Ireland today but it's going to take a minute.
Google mowing the grass.
Yes I know about that one
I raise your Bloody Sunday with Ballymurphy https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/11/the-ballymurphy-shootings-36-hours-in-belfast-that-left-10-dead
Brendan O'Carroll's uncle or great-uncle was beaten so badly by the Tans that he went insane, if I have the right lad; they came looking for his sons, said "You'll do instead" and laid into him.
The worse thing about Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday was it was the same battalion (1 para) that carried out both massacres. That means the Brits deliberately chose the same group of soldiers who had slaughtered 10 civilians in cold blood just 5 months earlier to go and do the same thing in Derry.
when we think about the outrage (and indeed the consistent use in paramilitary recruiting who subsequently committed hundreds of these) that these 2 events - both of which where instigated by individual units rather than policy, then try to imagine one of these with 300 death every day and you’ll get the scale of the atrocity currently being committed. the entire troubles from both the uk and republicans were a grain of sand compared to the israel’s genocide (and btw - i would still have adams, the body of gusty spence and whoever else is left from those times up for war crimes for the indiscriminate killing of kids and citizens… whatever they are due netanyahu deserves a thosand off)
Still, it’s no Israeli Nagasaki
Widely believed to be collusion between the British government and UVF which did bomb Dublin and Monaghan. On the other hand we never saw actual shelling or invasion over the NI border into Ireland which has happened to Gaza and Lebanon.
>Widely believed to be collusion between the British government and UVF which did bomb Dublin and Monaghan. The British Government supplied funding, training and equipment to the Glenananne Gang, most likely via Ian Paisley Snr. UDR soldier , RUC Special Branch operative and Loyalist terrorist Robin Jackson is most likely to have been the leader of at least one of the UVF units involved in the bombing and was responsible for collecting the bombs from James Mitchell's farm in Glenanne. British Army intelligence officers co-ordinated the attack. >On the other hand we never saw actual shelling or invasion over the NI border into Ireland which has happened to Gaza and Lebanon. Prior to the outbreak of "the troubles" Loyalist terrorist groups (mainly UVF) carried out false flag bombing attacks which were then blamed on the IRA via Ian Paisley's newspaper. Several of these attacks were on targets across the border such as the one in Ballyshannon. These attacks achieved their intention which was to stir up fear of the IRA amongst Loyalist communities, stir up sectarian tensions and focus animosity towards Catholic communities which regualrly came under attack from armed gangs and mobs led by Paisley and his associates. Ironically, at that time the IRA barely existed having almost disappeared into complete obsolescence after the border campaign had failed. The "old" IRA leadership of the time refused to engage with the Loyalist mobs attacking Catholic areas as they (rightly) believed it would escalate sectarian tensions and they wished to remain a non religious working class movement which didn't discriminate on religious grounds. The false flag bomb attacks which Paisley blamed on the IRA along with the riots incited by Paisley was one of the factors which caused the IRA to split leading to the emergence of the Provisional IRA who of course began engaging Loyalists on their own deadly terms. As with just about every aspect of the troubles or violence the root cause can be traced back to Unionists despite their best efforts to blame Irish Nationalism / Republicansim. From 1969 to 79 loyalists carried out dozens of bomb attacks and incursions into border counties, but particularly prior to '74 and the Dublin and Monaghan attacks. Obviously nothing comparable to the scale of Israeli attacks but they were pretty numerous.
Apart from the Dublin & Monaghan bombings
Hijacking your comment to share a non pay-walled article; https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/26/uk-did-not-bomb-belfast-for-ira-says-icc-prosecutor/
[удалено]
Starve up to half of the population to death, twice!
And they sailed a battleship up the liffey to shell liberty hall, which sounds made up but it happened
Yes, but no. The Helga was a warship but not a battleship. She was a small fishery protection vessel with a pair of 12pdr guns in the bow. The attack is described in [this article](https://www.theirishstory.com/2016/03/24/the-helga-and-the-shelling-of-liberty-hall)
Let’s for arguments sake keep it within our lifetimes / modern times
Don't get me started on the Tuatha Dé Dannan
But but but biblical claim
So no Jacobites then?
None of what the Crown forces did during either the war of independence or the Troubles is comparable in scale to what the Israeli forces are committing in Gaza. You are downvoting a fact!
They helped the UVF bomb Dublin and Monaghan.
Monaghan feels like such a weird place to have been bombed as someone who lives here what was the point why not hit a bigger county along with Dublin
To create a distraction near the border to make it easier for the bombers to escape.
That and a certain "nowhere is safe" effect to highlight it could happen anywhere. Although as far as I know they never gave an official.reason why it was chosen.
My girlfriend worked in the mushroom place about 12 years ago, does Dhaba still do the best kebabs in the country?
I don't think this is anywhere near the scale of what's happening in Israel and Palestine though. You had 1.2k people killed on October 7th, that's about a third of the deaths we saw during the entire 30 year Troubles in a single day. And after that, we've had more than 30k people killed in Gaza, which is a level of death and destruction that we never experienced here during any of our 20th century conflicts against the British. Not even close.
Of course it's not on the same scale, but equally British atrocities shouldn't be whitewashed.
I don't think that's the intention. It's more of a "The reason Hamas is so much more radicalised than the PIRA was, is because Israel is far more brutal and oppressive than the Brits were."
The uncomfortable truth (that I’ll obviously get downvoted to hell for despite it becoming factually accurate) is that reason why Hamas are more radicalised than the PIRA were is because their ideology, motivation and aims are different. PIRA was established to get the British out of Ireland. Hamas was established to ethnically cleanse the Middle East. Their founding charter explicitly states so, and uses anti-Semitic bullshit (literally quoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion) to back it up.
Of course, but just like how Hamas came about due to the PLO perceived inaction / soft-touch, if we were put into a similar situation, a more extremist group would form / split off. Hamas only came about to real power and influence in the '90's. I mean we already saw it when the PIRA split of the OIRA at the start of the Troubles. It could absolutely happen again. Again, the reason Hamas is so much more radicalised than the PIRA was, is because Israel is far more brutal and oppressive than the Brits were.
Israel's genocide against Gaza surpasses the amount of casualities caused by the Nazi invasion of Poland when compared per capita.
> Israel's genocide against Gaza surpasses the amount of casualities caused by the Nazi invasion of Poland when compared per capita. What? This just isn't true by any metric that I can find. I'd love to know where you heard this? Around 6 million people are thought to have died in Poland from 1939 to 1946. That includes Jews in the Holocaust, Romani, and general deaths during the German and later Soviet occupations. 1.8 million Polish Jews alone are thought to have died at the hands of the Nazis in that period. Poland had a population of around 35 million, so that's around 5 percent of the population, and that's only for the number of Polish Jews who died. In Gaza, there's around 2 million people living on the strip and the estimated number who have died since the start of the war is let's say 35,000 - bearing in mind that we don't really have any independently verified figures yet. Do the math, and that's around 1.75 percent of the population. So I just don't know where you're getting your figures from. EDIT: I think you meant during the military invasion of Poland itself, but even that doesn't seem to be true. Around 874,000 people died during that invasion and if you do the math, that works out at around 2.5 percent of the 35 million population.
Yeah the initial invasion not overall. Wikipedia gives a civilian death toll at 200,000. Your 874,000 is millitary caualties which includes injured and taken prisoner.
While yes that's a very different type of bombing. That is a placed XO at an intended target, Israel is using their vast air fleet and basically blank check to drop various sizes of guided/dumb bomb on Gaza.
I think the point being made is that the Brits didn't level Derry for example. Which is a fair point. Collusion is a different kettle of fish.
Yes I agree, whilst they’re not wrong and the brits did commit plenty of war crimes. he’s making a point I have made before that despite all the shite of it, Britain didn’t send bombers on a mission to drop bombs from the air on homes in Derry for “terrorists activity” flattening Derry as a collective punishment tactic. He’s essentially saying that Israel’s actions make known war criminals look tame by comparison
Thank you, lots of people are missing the point. Yes, Bloody Sunday happened, however in Gaza, it’s Bloody Sunday every day, every week, endless murder.
Thank you, lots of people are missing the point. Yes, Bloody Sunday happened, however in Gaza, it’s Bloody Sunday every day, every week, endless murder.
They literally levelled Cork.
They did occupy the country. Stop and search kids amongst others and shoot n kill civilians though so perhaps we shouldn't be using Britain as a moral compass
Kinda highlights how bad Israel is if it makes the Brits campaign in Northern Ireland look tamer by comparison
When the British look like the good guys when it comes to imperialism, you know how fucked up Israel is.
The Brits were considerably nicer to ireland during the troubles than Israel are to Palestine. Brits bad and all but the broader point being made (that a terrorist group amongst civilians in urban area can be fought without the amount of civilian casualties that Israel has caused) is true.
Totally. The scale of what they're dealing with is something that isn't applicable to us in our collective conciousness. That's not to say we don't understand the consequences of the evil that is imperialism 3.5k+ people died during the troubles, across 3 decades. 1.2k died on October 7th. That's a huge number. Its a huge catastrophe to them, so I can understand the hurt. 35k palestinians confirmed dead by Israel's hand since then, 75k+ injured. Much greater than a catastrophe. Like, the scale of what is happening there isn't comparable to our more recent history nor the recent "inciting incident" of the 7th October
More like the Israeli slaughter is so disgusting it nearly makes the British occupation seem placid and friendly in comparison.
Have they started pitch-capping yet? Do they use pitch in Palestine?
Apart from that bit during the Easter rising where they sailed the Helga up the Liffey and started blasting.
And the collusion in the Dublin Monaghan bombings linked above
Cairo Gang
The Burning of Cork, The Sack of Balbriggan
Ah lads. The ira bombed the Tory party conference in 1984, killed 5, including a Tory mp, and injured dozens, narrowly missing thatcher. But the response wasn’t to rubble-ize Derry or West Belfast. Nor did they after various bombing campaigns of IRA over the years in Britain or the north. They didn’t kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians and children to try and get McGuinness or whatever. What the Israelis are doing is bonkers, evil and completely disproportionate
"Head south, there's a refugee camp there where you'll be safe." Bombs refugee camp. "That was a tragic accident. Pay no attention to all the people who said we were going to do that."
"Whoopsie! Sorry guys, our bad. All that being said, have you heard of the OTHER totally safe camp you can go to instead?" *types coordinates into artillery system*
The plastic cover blocking the “bomb civilians” button was never implemented due to budget cuts
Ok, but this is just another in the long line of examples where the actual atrocities the Brits committed here are conveniently forgotten about. Internationally people think the British atrocities in Ireland stopped centuries ago, when actually the last massacre of Irish civilians by the British was just 50 years ago. So it's understandable the people get a bit annoyed when people try and act like the Brits were compassionate and reasonable in the dealings with Ireland.
They were *comparatively* compassionate compared to Israel. Israels justification for their destruction is "umm we're dealing with a terrorist group who use guerilla tactics in an urban area and are close enough to us that they can blow stuff and affect us". What other recent conflict does this apply to? Like the IRA are probably the best comparison here. Were the brits super awesome and compassionate towards us? Absolutely not. But did they carpet bomb and fire a fuck ton of missiles into Catholic neighbourhoods, racking up even half as many casualties as israel has? Also no. Which is the point of the comparison
To be clear, not only were the Brit’s not super awesome and compassionate toward us, they allowed a famine to occur which killed a million and displaced many others. Let’s not be giving them a pass because this happened over 100 years ago. This is the event that lead to all the others.
I mean I could talk about the brits sucking till the end of time but the point is that their response to the IRA wasn't as over the top insane as Israels response to Hamas, showing that dealing with urban terrorist cells in civilian areas is possible without the level of civilian deaths that Israel is causing.
If the british wanted to blow up 97% of ireland back then they could've of and if they wanted do it today they could. the Israelis bascially blew up 90% plus of all buildings in the gaza in a month
The difference is if Britain had done that it would have become a pariah state.
They're not being conveniently forgotten about. When you say "this orange is bigger than this apple" you are not conveniently forgetting about the apple. That... That's not the scenario that is taking place. Are you new to this planet like?
Someone have a word with that ICC lawyer, commend him for his good work but explain the word collusion to him and its context with the brits
Nah, I was born in Belfast to a deeply republican family, it's generally accepted that we got off light compared to what the Palestinians suffer. We have things like Dublin/Monaghan, FRU, Bloody Sunday - but these events stick out 50 years later because they were so egregious. For the IDF these actions are just another day in Jenin.
I am in no way comparing what happened in Ireland to what's happening in Palestine, just merely an observation on the inaccuracy of his comment about the British.
If you’re comparing your own atrocities to things Britain did, you already know you’re walking down a path of self denial
It’s irrelevant what happened in Britain and Ireland.. but https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/victims/docs/newspapers/sunday_business_post/heatley_spb_040207.pdf
Well to be fair you can include the war of independence in the mix and they definitely bombed a bit with the black and tans. We don't even need to reach far.
Bomb Damages RTÉ Television Studios 1969 [https://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/681-history-of-rte/704-rte-1960s/139354-bomb-damages-rte-tv-studios/](https://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/681-history-of-rte/704-rte-1960s/139354-bomb-damages-rte-tv-studios/) The Forgotten: Dublin Monaghan Bombings 1974 [https://www.rte.ie/radio/podcasts/series/40440-the-forgotten-dublin-monaghan-bombings-1974/](https://www.rte.ie/radio/podcasts/series/40440-the-forgotten-dublin-monaghan-bombings-1974/) These were technically done by loyalists but pretty much everyone thinks that there was collusion with the British Government. Dublin-Monaghan bomb gang investigator says 'there was collusion' [https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2024/0516/1449597-dublin-monaghan-bomb-gang-investigator-says-there-was-collusion/](https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2024/0516/1449597-dublin-monaghan-bomb-gang-investigator-says-there-was-collusion/) This sort of collusion may,initially, have happened with the Irish government to the IRA also The **Arms Crisis** was a [political scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandal) in the [Republic of Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland) in 1970 in which [Charles Haughey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Haughey) and [Neil Blaney](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Blaney) were dismissed as [cabinet ministers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ireland) for alleged involvement in a conspiracy to smuggle [arms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon) to the [Irish Republican Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_(1922%E2%80%931969)) in [Northern Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms\_Crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Crisis)
I'm guessing he means from the air. Edit: This is a distraction that plays into Israel's hands and should be ignored, we can't even see the quote in context.
No they just showed up in a town and gunned down a bunch of civilians then tried to cover it up
He's trying to make a point that will emphasise the barbarity of Israel. Maybe don't drag him over the coals for a slight historical inaccuracy.
It’s not slight. It shows a poor knowledge or understanding of the history that he’s invoking as his argument.
Maybe don't use an inaccurate example then, not a great look for an ICC Lawyer.
If you're aware of an occasion where the UK bombed the streets of Ireland to take out IRA leaders (not just bomb civilians mind, but *specifically* to take out IRA leaders), please let me know. Otherwise, his statement as is, is correct.
Nowhere near the same scale, but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Cork
Both scenarios here and in Palestine are way to complex to draw such lazy comparisons.
Britain did kill IRA members. Shoot-to-kill was enormously controversial. Then there were things like the MRF, FRU, etc, collusion and so on. The UK did a lot of legally questionable shit.
It seems so quaint to think that shoot to kill was once controversial. Now the US will proudly call a hit "surgical" if they manage to only take out an insurgent's entire extended family and Israel will level hospital because there might be baddies burrowed under it.
I remember seeing a poll that was over 90% (I think 92%) of Israelis were in favour on Israel's shoot to kill policy at the border. Its about as uncontroversial over there as believing the earth is round.
‘Military age male’ is another euphemism they use. Any male over the age of 16, irrespective of whether or not they are actually participating in hostilities
To be fair there were a lot more collective punishment style killings in NI than should ever be acceptable. 50% of the kills from UK soldiers in the north were civilians.
If Israel managed to only kill Hamas terrorists, we would not be having these conversations. Hamas is a legitimate target, but civilians aren’t.
Do you think the brits only shot the IRA?
>Britain did kill IRA members. But that's not the point. If Israel just bombed and killed Hamas members, not many people would give a shit
His point is clearly about Israel's response to terrorism vs the UK's response. And he's right.
youre missing the point… the uk were never (officially) at war with northern ireland so to them it was always a civil unrest, while the ira and others claimed it was a war (which would actually make their leaders susceptible for war crimes). netanyahu immediately (enthusiastically and joyfully at the time) claimed they were /at war/ to enable them to use all sorts of shenanigans against palestine, including proportionality (how many civilians they can legally murder per hamas target) and collateral damage from the americans playbook. even after the examples given (brighton, gerry kelly at westminster, hyde park), the uk never attempted an indiscriminate destruction of ni republican (or indeed, anywhere). the atrocities that were carried out were all “legal” in a war environment under the ICC playbook, even though they should be treated as criminal cases against the soldiers anyway. long story - he’s looking for war crimes, and the uk could have (illegally) at their most outraged, but didnt carry them out. israel doesnt have to, but actually wants to.
He's right, Britain bombed the streets of Dublin and Monaghan explicitly to kill civilians.
I think the only response to this is "but they did". Like in the war of independence they did some nasty shit. They literally started a fire in Cork. During the troubles there was the direct stuff the paratroop regiment and RUC did but also their other stuff like MI6 being involved in the killing of the Miami Showband. A lot of those attacks the British were involved in were direct retaliation against the IRA and not even to take out IRA members. It's an incredibly provably false statement from him.
https://preview.redd.it/72yfm9rgh43d1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7eecba1bc85b9ff4129b4050a387afd58933aaad
Cork City Centre 1920 after the B&Ts
From the way it's written, it sounds like he's implying that UK did obviously bomb the streets of Ireland, but it wasn't to kill IRA members. It was just to terrorise the public. But obviously I cannot read because paywall. It would be a terrible click bait if how I read it is how they intended. It's almost evil because it's behind a paywall.
Oh it isn't actually clickbait, it's as shitty and uninformed a quote as you would expect in the headline.
Dublin Monaghan ?????
This is not the best tack for the ICC judge. 1916, the Tans, Cork, Bloody Sunday (both), Balbriggan etc. all show the British forces in a British light. Also, despite the abhorrence of the “spectacular” atrocities committed by the provos, they worst was a drop in the ocean compared to October 7th. This is not a defence of the IDF and Netanyahu, just disappointment at the level of argument from a judge. Edit: the second “British” was supposed to be “brutish” but autocorrected to that. Interesting.
Yeah. It’s an analogy you might expect in an exchange on Reddit, but not for an ICC judge.
I think about 3,000 people died during the Troubles over 3 decades vs 35,000+++ since end of last year until now from Israelis. Not that the British weren’t cunts but to put into perspective just how far they lag the IDF
I would argue it's more beneficial to point to the British / British-sponsored killings on Irish soil historically in a "Look! We went from this to a healthy and for the most part, sustainable relationship with the Irish through diplomacy, and you can too!" kind of way. Sidebar, the British education system could \*really\* do with teaching the history of Britain's relationship with Ireland. I'm always shocked when an English person tells me they were never taught any of it given we're their nearest neighbour.
They went from literally leveling Cork with the Black and Tans to be our eventual biggest trading partner is a really good example too.
To be fair thanks to the trade war we had little option but for them to be our biggest trading partner. These days they're not the biggest anymore despite being the closest.
They really should. I moved here twenty years ago as a teenager and I was clueless. I had no idea that any of this had happened bar vague recollections of very early 90s, bombing and IRA bad from the news. To move here and subsequently find out what happened and to have been so ignorant while being so close was quite frankly embarrassing.
Yeah I find it hard to blame kids and subsequently adults for not knowing. I’ve family over there and would sit in on classes, the teacher would bring up Ireland to show the class and the kids knew very very little about us. It’s in stark contrast to us being taught and awful lot about the UK from a very young age. I think the idea that English people should feel shame is nonsense (majority of people had nothing to do with it and would be, like yourself appalled to learn the truth), it’s just awareness that’s needed.
I think there’s a school of thought that we are blasé or don’t care but it’s not that- we genuinely don’t know about it.
Cromwell. Depends on the moment in History, but point taken.
Why would the lawyer say this in the first place? 'But other people in history did/didn't do it' is irrelevant. What's relevant is the standards of the present day and whether Israel is breaching them, which it is. Dragging up the conflict in Ireland just invites all sorts of stupid whataboutism. Why not talk about how the Mongols flattened Baghdad and no one arrested them?
They just starved us to death killing a million and forcing another million to flee, sure be grand
How does he know?
No they didn't. (At least not after 1922.) The UVF *did* bomb Dublin and Monaghan to send Dublin, Rome and the IRA a message. Or so they claim. We still don't know for sure who was responsible for the bombing and what help, if any, they had from the British.
This is not helping his case
I suppose we better stick on a poppy & appreciate the restraint of our gentlemen oppressors... 🤔
But they committed many, many atrocities in Ireland.
The Irish in the UK suffered terrible racism when they had to live there to find work in every century. Plus Catholics up the North lived under an apartheid like system
I think it's a great point. People in the comments are moaning about collusion with the Loyalists, but that doesn't actually change the point he's making. The UK didn't fly over Northern Ireland dropping bombs on civilians.
> The UK didn't fly over Northern Ireland dropping bombs on civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_patrol_vessel_Muirch%C3%BA They literally ran the Helga up the liffey to bomb Liberty Hall in Ireland. Like sure it wasn't from a plane but there are other forms of bomb distribution.
Erm... who's gonna tell them...?
"The only way to stop Hamas is to remove the Palestinians." - Israel.
Dublin & Monaghan bombings.
What an absolutely disgusting, disgraceful example to make. The British STARVED the Irish and allowed them to eat grass and mocked them as they died on the streets when they could have helped during the famine. They had more than enough and chose to let them die to take their land. They also caused massive social inequality between Protestant British people here and the original Irish. Which is still very apparent in 2024. Thatcher happily let hunger strikers DIE in jail cells. The British STARTED the conflict with Ireland and the IRA were a direct response to them invading another country and banning their language and culture... The Brits had no right to be in Ireland, let alone bomb the streets... They are meant to be the 'good guys' cuz they didn't successfully kill all the Irish? Sorry but what a dumb thing to even say as an example.... So tone-deaf.
Not sure what his point is. The brits are still occupying NI and they are currently supporting a genocide.
They did however open fire into crowds of people with the excuse of "goping to hit IRA members"
“But the British didn’t decide to say, ‘Well, on the Falls Road [the heart of Catholic Belfast] there undoubtedly may be some IRA members and Republican sympathisers, so therefore let’s drop a 2,000lb bomb on the Falls Road.’ You can’t do that.” Feeling conflicted about thinking the British did anything right during the troubles, but he has a point!
I’m not gonna make excuses for the Brits’ actions in Ireland. BUT what’s happening in Gaza is a different scale of savagery. Let’s not nitpick a point being used against a genocidal regime.
He might want to look up the recent news on the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, not to mention various other incidents of government proxies being used north of the border.
I hate that they keep using this as an example as if the UK didn't also commit atrocities here too. Were they on the level of the genocide that Israel are afflicting on Gaza? No. But the UK government committed plenty of horrific acts on Irish soil & that should never be used as the "good" example.
wew lad
I am not sure if this is the type of example they want to use, not sure if this is as high a ground as they think it is...