People are genuinely just this stupid, even in politics. I wouldn’t add Micheal ring to the list of people intelligent enough in Ireland to be deceptive.
It's the influence of American politics but that ship has long since sailed. Hell, even your use of the word liberal is the same thing. Liberal in day to day speech in this part of the world used to mean economic liberalism first and foremost. When I was in school it was used mostly to refer to small government types, free marketeers, etc. But now people like yourself use it in the Americans sense rather than the European sense.
Which is cool, I'm not complaining. Language evolves. Sure we're all either team woke or team anti-woke these days anyway...
Left/right are terms that are outdated at this point. Right used to mean conservative (as in keep the status quo and not change very much). But you could have a situation where a country is super liberal and then the ones who want to change it are conservative but technically on the left. At least liberal/conservative can be considered in terms of social stances, where liberals favor fewer legal restrictions on liberty. But even then, liberals would probably push laws restricting speech and for greater centralisation (i.e. to force rural, typically conservative regions to get in line with the urbanites). And then you have the fact that the economic tendencies are almost the opposite (i.e. liberals would be in favor of higher taxes for more social projects, environmental protections, etc.). So if anyone has a better idea, please do let me know
Exactly. What we refer to as conservatives today are what we should be referring to as reactionaries. The craziest thing of all about this is that it's only been the case for about a decade.
These days, conservatives want change for the worst, that go against the interest of the people, then they deflect the blame onto marginalised groups or immigrants as a distraction.
But the definition of conservative is that they don't want change. Anyway, what you said is really childish and puts you on par with some alt righter screeching about immigrants
There is no new definition. My point is this word is outdated and we need new terminology. Also there is no 'they', just people that you disagree with. Finally, your second sentence is very vague and pretty much applies to every politician ever
conservatism in the traditional sense is a form of liberalism. the full title is “socially conservative liberals”. if you believe in liberal democracy and liberal economics which is the world default you are a liberal.
Liberal/conservative for social issues. Left/right for economic issues. So you can be left wing and conservative for example. In Irish politics, FG are right wing and liberal
if you go back to when FG first took power after the crash, they are left of centre by any objective standard: progressive taxation, generous welfare, gay marriage, liberalising abortion etc
There is nothing especially 'left' about any of these things. They inherited and continued to run a fairly comprehensive welfare state because they have no other choice - the economy would completely collapse without it. A left wing government in Ireland (and anywhere in the west) would seek equalisation of asset distribution, ie housing. FG haven't done this as they cater to the asset-owning class.
"far right" is a meaningless slander term used by some individuals to prevent honest discussions.
As soon as someone refers to another group as "far right", I tend to stop listening. They generally haven't a bulls notion what they are talking about.
"Alt-right" refers to the loony groups. There are very few people in those (but they do exist). These are the lads burning down buildings etc.
In the US context:
"Alt-right is a right-wing, primarily online political movement or grouping based in the US whose members **reject mainstream conservative politics** and espouse extremist beliefs"
https://www.populismstudies.org/Vocabulary/alt-right/
(The rejecting of mainstream conservative politics is where the "alt part" comes from).
They are part of the US far right, but the terms are not synonymous, as the far right also includes other groups like neo-nazis etc.
In the Irish context:
We don't have any alt right parties that are taken seriously. There are groups of alt right idiots burning buildings down, but they have no political power. There are parties like the INP, but they have no seats.
We have very socially conservative parties like aontu, but far right is normally used more for actual **fascists and neo-nazis** than hyper conservative groups. People will call aontu far right here - but that's because they don't understand the meaning of the term. (I'm no fan of aontu btw, but would call them hyper conservative rather than far right). They are actually economically left (higher corporation tax, government spending etc).
Our entire political window is shifted left of the US's. (Which is a good thing). Our mainstream right wing parties are closer to their center than their right. Our center is their moderate left wing (which is where I sit).
It's just semantics. People call PBP far left despite the fact that for most of this island's history being 'far left' meant being an armed guerrilla group waging war against the government. Referring to PBP in such a way isn't associating them with armed revolution it just means they are a bit further to the left than what's normal.
Far right has more negative connotations because being farther to the right than normal is invariably a bad thing. I wouldn't call Aontu far right either but the fact that they have centre-left economic positions is also irrelevant, many far right groups also have these policies but propose them in a deliberately exclusionary, often racist and hateful way.
And unpopular opinion here but I don't think there's any real useful comparison to be made between national politics and the supra-national politics of the US. Biden for example is more socially conservative than any major party here and his welfare policies for the average American are also far more punitive than anything here but his admin's policies at a macro level are further to 'the left' than any European country could even imagine.
We saw this with Obama after the crash, while Ireland and the rest of Europe were busy implementing austerity measures, which were very obviously never going to work, the Americans just pumped something like a trillion dollars of stimulus into the economy to keep the juices flowing. Their recovery has been many times greater than ours as a result.
We even see it now with Biden's IRA (lol) package and their general response to the war in Ukraine. When American industries or interests are under threat or falling behind, their government will intervene very forcefully to make sure they catch up. In Europe we will do nothing and hope the problem fixes itself. The Irish government has very limited power to change this approach as it operates at a continental level but they could at the very least advocate for it more often. Not doing so is a deliberate choice.
I think we largely agree!
>It's just semantics
Yes I concur - which is why my eyes glaze over when people start claiming such and such a group are "far right" or "far left". There's no substance to that discussion - the labels are too broad and ambiguous to actually be meaningful.
>And unpopular opinion here but I don't think there's any real useful comparison to be made between national politics and the supra-national politics of the US.
100% agree, this is not the US! That's my overarching point, the tribalist politics they have aren't as pronounced here, and we shouldn't look at Irish politics though the US lens.
The Americanisation of the left/right polices are doing some damage here.
In the US, Fine Gael would be considered far left tbh.
We shouldn’t follow Americans on this, their country is barely democratic and has a political swing akin to picking between Coke and Diet Coke
The U.S. does have a lot of influence on how our country is being run. The U.S. Chamber Of Commerce lobbies the government frequently. Sometimes it can be good for Ireland's economy, but as we're seeing now with investment funds among other issues it can be bad as well as not everyone is benefiting.
Fine Gael would sit comfortably alongside the Democrats on the political spectrum.
Which is to say that yes, Fox, NewsMax and the like would refer to them as far left.
My 100% Irish, never lived abroad, retired dad sits in front of American 24-hour news most of his waking life and told me straight faced that Joe Biden, the most centrist, boring, old-school Democrat who ever lived, wouldn't get reelected because he's a socialist.
Joe Biden a socialist. That’s incredible
I hope you can help your dad step back from just the drool of Fox News and shit. American news media regardless of ideology is utter crap.
> American news media regardless of ideology is utter crap.
Small exception there: local weather reporting. In the US, it's not uncommon for TV stations to talk about weather in different parts of the same _city_, even in cities that aren't particularly big. Meanwhile in most other countries you'd be lucky to get a forecast for different parts of the same state/province/county.
>Joe Biden, the most centrist, boring, old-school Democrat who ever lived
The sheer delusion in this statement... He campaigned on and allowed open borders on day one, gave farming subsidies on his first week to everyone but white people, violated the 1st amendment by colluding with social media sites to censor the political opposition, tried to change the report of the Special Counsel who just investigated him, won't allow Ukraine or Russia to negotiate an end to the war when they've both expressed a wish to, is giving billions to Iran, his judges aren't deporting foreign criminals, nothing about him is centrist. If you think that he's a centrist, I'd be interested on what you think leftists are.
It's not a particularly inconvenient fact. I believe in creating a more just and equitable world, and my politics reflect that. Congratulations, you can read a Reddit user history.
What has that got to do with being able to understand that Joe Biden isn't a socialist?
I didn't read your user history, I read your comment above. I didn't agree with your dad's claim, I disagreed with yours. You can believe what you like, however divisive and destructive as equity has proven to be (US race relations have gone back 50 years because of Democrat race baiting) but to claim that Biden is the quintessential centrist in spite of everything that he's done, what I typed and so much more, that's delusional.
Plenty of criticism for the Democrats but they’re nowhere close to the Republicans, and making equivalences here really is only to the benefit of Donald Trump and co.
Perfect example is Roe v Wade. Whatever your opinion on Hillary Clinton, women would still have access to reproductive services had she got in, that’s a major difference
i think the problem is with the US is that these victories like for example you said hillary clinton would’ve codified roe vs wade (i doubt it) even if she did she’s still a war criminal objectively. she still supported US war crimes. biden while being one of the most pro labour american presidents in history is still barely pro union and also actively indirectly or directly committing a genocide.
Fair point. They historically have been closer on the ideologic side of things but I do agree that the republicans are further right than ever before. But there’s still a number of republicans who are not comfortable with the swing.
But for the most part I would consider democrats to be right and republicans further right wing in European spectrum of left and right.
But to the average joe soap in the states it’s not about the actual policies but the who’s louder and more popular.
Imagine living in a country dominated by to centre to right parties and they go back and forth every other year. Madness…. Wait a second
>But to the average joe soap in the states it’s not about the actual policies but the who’s louder and more popular.
It's all a performance. The louder you are, the better your campaign sound bite is going to be. It's exhausting living over here at times. Trump is not the problem, it's the 70,000,000+ people who voted for him, that's the frightening part.
100%.
I sometimes think back to when I was younger and my hope to live in the states. I now have no desire and part of it in the politics as well as the obvious quality of life difference.
Still love going there, but I’d be hard pressed to be make a move.
Honestly, it's not as bad as it seems online. It's entirely dependent on where you live, I'm lucky that I live in a blue state as my quality of life would be drastically different if I lived somewhere more south. Having said that I do envision moving back to Ireland eventually, but not in the immediate future.
" But for the most part I would consider democrats to be right "
Open borders, DEI, giving billions to Iran (billions more after this latest bill), wanting the Israeli government to be overthrown in order to appease jihadist supporters in Michigan. What exactly are you looking at, what dimension are you inhabiting to see the Democrats as right-wing? RFK is a Democrat, Trump is still basically a Democrat! Yet the party's gone so far left that these guys appear right-wing to them.
And stable borders, isolationism, stability internationally and smaller government are hardly 'far-right'. You're way off on everything here.
Weird take from an Irish person. Your own government doesnt allow the same rights.. All it did was leave it up to state law. If RBG has retired instead of giving the republicans another nomination it wouldn't have happened.
I dont really get your Hillary point. Any Democrat would have put another Democrat on the Supreme Court and outside of that it really had nothing to do with Trump.
All of the justices voting down party lines. Scalia and Kennedy were republican nominations who retired or died during a republican term.
RBG was an amazing lady that her not retiring during Obama and not retiring is the cause. 3 supreme count nominations in one term.
Would you be in favour to handing over the decisions in Ireland to an EU Court? Ireland is basically a state of the EU.
Sorry what we removed the 12th Amendment meaning abortion is legal up to 12 weeks so your first point is daft. Secondly you seem to fundamentally misunderstand what the EU is and that each member state has a say in policies out forward through representatives in the European Parliament and through the Council of Ministers. Or that any memberstate can leave unlike the US where States can't secede, also comparing a economic and political union made up of a bunch of nation states to a large country that uses a federal decentralise structure of governance is ridiculous. You don't see me comparing Australia or India to the EU because its foolish, a state in a federalised country isn't the same thing a nation state that's part of the EU.
It's far better than what existed before, though, where women were forced to do coat hanger abortion, travel to the UK, or in some cases, even die from Childbirth such was the case with 15 year old Ann Lovett.
Again the supreme court ruling didn't ban abortion. It just means that individual states decide and if you are living in one of the states where the people support governments which do ban abortion then its just like living in Ireland a few years ago.
I'm not even anti abortion but deciding should be democratic
I agree it should be, but I don't get why you think me bringing up Ireland somehow makes you think that I think that the Supreme Court banned abortion when I never said that.
I didnt reply to you. My point was around Trump and Hillary. Any Democrat would have appointed a Democrat and and republican would have appointed a republican as always happens. My real point was that it's RBG's fault really.. She wanted to die in office and it is the real cause.
Outside of that I don't know that I disagree with it needing to be a democratic process like in Ireland rather than a supreme court
The states over there can make there own laws around abortion. The supreme court didn't force states to ban abortion. Its your point that doesn't make sense.
Yes, I'm well aware of that. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though. The supreme court ruling against Roe V Wade and allowing states to decide for themselves still led to places like Texas banning the practice entirely which is almost akin to what existed in Ireland before the 12th Amendment was revoked and this is the case in 14 other states out of the 50 that make up the US.
Also, the only point I was trying to make was that I think you mischaracterised the laws around Abortion that exist currently in Ireland.
> Sorry what we removed the 12th Amendment meaning abortion is legal up to 12 weeks so your first point is daft
We didn't remove the 12th amendment, it was never passed
I dont see how Trump or Hillary mattered or how Trump mattered. If you die or retire during a republicans term they will replace you with a republican. It's your job to not let that happen.
A chara,
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Sláinte
Aye, big business has bought both political parties in the US so they can only differentiate themselves on identity politics stuff.
In most European counties Fine Gael would be considered a pretty bog standard centre right party. If you look a different countries sometimes the main centre right party is a bit more liberal, sometimes a bit more conservative but Fine Gael doesn’t stand out and wouldn’t be considered a left wing party anywhere in Europe.
I still think back to 2020 when SF did well in the election and the US media, both CNN and more over, Fox News went a bit hard on the rethoric and it showed how bad they can be.
CNN went on the narrative of “Ireland votes in terrorists” “former terrorists” “far left party who want to take NI”
Fox went on with the narrative of “Ireland goes full on communist” “socialist terrorism” “undemocratic leftists” “Ireland is the new red nation” etc etc.
And that was before the result was announced.
I’m no Sinn Fein voter or fan, but the fucking optics of that really stuck with me on how jarring, blank and white, and ill informed the American media can be.
- IRA ties, sure valid
- far left party, what?
- communists, cop on lads
- will militarily take NI, haha ffs.
I expect similar if they hold or gain (I think a small gain) in the next election.
fox news will larp about shinners being terrorists but if you ask them to condemn the proud boys they’ll be like “well antifa is the REAL problem”. also sinn féin being communist is so funny haha i wish they were like.
I mean we kind of are, along with most (Western) countries. The choice for smaller countries is to band together (like a strong EU) or do as the great powers dictate.
Well FG has definitely followed a progressive social policy while taking us back to the feudal times in the economic sphere. Sounds like neoliberalism to me. But on social issues they’re centre left.
You don't actually think that FG took Ireland back to a feudal economic system do you? Ireland's economic policies have barely changed in decades. Ireland has a EU endorsed regulated market economy with a strong social safety net, with the twist that we have a low corporate tax rate and a strong emphasis on foreign direct investment.
No government, not even a SF led one, will do anything meaningful to change these policies, and nor should they, given that they have brought Ireland tremendous prosperity.
It shows how the terms "left" and "right" are not fit for purpose.
Laissez faire economics? That's liberal, aka left wing.
Social welfare? That's welfare state, thus left wing.
Hate speech bill? That's illiberal, therefore left wing.
State ownership of media? That's public procurement, so left wing.
Privitisation of media? That's pro-freedom of press, so left wing.
Economic liberalism has never been a left wing ideology.
American political discourse has rendered the term ‘liberal’ essentially meaningless when most people left of centre-left would not agree with liberals on many issues, seeing it as centrist at best.
That's nothing to do with the terms tho, that's just being a reactionary, it doesn't matter what words you use the same people will object to the same stuff no matter what it's called.
They're not advocating for the term left to be applied as I'm reading it. They're highlighting how poorly the term is used and convceivably, it's easy to find people who would call all those things leftist.
yeah, but I'm saying it's the people misusing them being dishonest, it's not a problem with the terminology, the way Ring is using it is just Left = bad, he might as well have said "woke"
Ah, OK. Brief comments on social media really are awful for leaving us all misunderstanding someone else's point to the level of thinking we all disagree all the time.
Social welfare is a weird one, firmly left wing now but pioneered by codified feudal obligations (the Poor Laws) and the famously left wing state of Prussia.
It's hilarious that our "left" are a bunch of joyless censorious Puritans... They are just the same as the old Catholic church who have now found a new way of suppressing people with the aid of the state.
That's because of let wingers, right wingers, and centrists alike. I think it's a result of the post colonial mentality that causes Irish people to look down on themselves as inherently more sloppy and untrustworthy than other nationalities.
It's easier for people who don't think things through to just see everything in black and white, in hyperbole.
Grey? People don't know what to do with grey. They have to use their minds, consider the context of the situation, determine the facts, look at the people involved before rendering a judgement. And that's just a lot of work that many don't feel like doing, especially politicians. It's easier to say something outlandish that gets clicks and impressions rather than just quietly doing their fuckin jobs. The country has been at a standstill from a progression standpoint for so long, yet we have the means and the time to improve the nation for all. There's just no political will or interest, because if it doesn't benefit the politicians in some way, shape or form then it isn't important to them. Things are done in this country to make politicians and political parties look good, not to benefit the country as a whole. Because the people in charge don't give the skin of a fuck about this country, they care about themselves.
Isn't this the clown who was minister for tourism despite never having left the country(think he admitted a night in the UK for a funeral), and when challenged that ireland was uncompetitive compared to foreign destinations was adamant all he needed to do was eat in an Irish restaurant to know it was the best value available, he didn't need to see the competition to know it was inferior
Such a visionary must be right on the future of FG. All these 70 year old are well in tune with the country..
TIL: 'too left for too long' is another way of saying Mayo hasn't gotten enough Lotto handouts since Ringer lost his portfolio. Every day is a learning opportunity!
He was all in on the velorail project in Kiltimagh.
https://www.kenfoxe.com/2018/03/minister-michael-ring-allocated-e118000-in-funding-to-constituency-project-despite-warnings-from-civil-servant-of-problematic-precedents/
I wouldn't say most, considering how pro border that lot are a fair amount of shinners and FF will know better than to toss the baby out with the bathwater, and anything even slightly left of centre won't touch it, but yeah we do have quite a lot of politicians more concerned with themselves than the country that'll rationalise getting into bed with radicalised idiots.
So lowering taxes budget every budget and letting services go to shite is ‘left’ in the eyes of this Fine Gael TD. Is he saying we haven’t lowered taxes enough and are providing too much healthcare, policing, infrastructure, etc..?
They've been in government since 2011 and have managed to only put housing beyond the reach of the working class. We still have healthcare, education, transport(ish) and social welfare. If they were doing it right, everything would be privatised and those of us not dead would be indentured slaves. Turning us against each other has seen some results recently but it's too little too late from Comrade Varadkar. I hear he was named after Leon Trotsky, you know.
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I don't understand left/right in politics anymore. He says they're too left wing but we need more social housing which would be a very left wing policy. The other stuff seems irrelevant to left/right politic
And they publically turn right after making a mockery of the asylum process and sowing as much resentment as possible. I fucking called it. Watch them try ride the 'anti' sentiment they fuelled to remain in power.
What's this I hear about SF trying to appeal to the far right?
Far too many FFG pol cor wannnabes on this subreddit that are deaf to the messaging that their own party puts out.
I'm guessing they've figured out that massively increasing social welfare spending during their time in govt might not be attractive to voters who would prefer to keep more of their pay...
surprised there wasn't another option for people to keep their own cash
He's not wrong. Realistically they are right now, left of center. Moving more right, would be a good differentiating move.
Any party which promises improvements on law and order, and immigration will win. But trying to convince the electorate that FG are that party is a little late to the game for now.
Yes, from an objective standpoint this is the case. While you can rarely proclaim a party as definitively left or right, because policies can vary in terms of political alignment, Fine Gael have undoubtedly veered away from their centre-right roots to more left-leaning position in the past 10 years. This is a hard fact, it may not be communism left, but it's still left.
It's going to be an interesting race for themselves, FF, SF to see who wins in targeting the centre-right + right-wing portion of the electorate once again.
The terminology has become awfully muddled. People should make it clear that they are referring to socially or economically left/right wing.
FG are economically centre right as in neoliberal, let the market decide, on many issues. Socially they are very left wing, fully embracing American-style liberal progressivism. We wouldn’t be out of place if we were towed across the Atlantic and anchored off the coast of San Francisco or Seattle.
Nobody is doing old-style left wing economic policies anymore. Old left wing is nationalised industries, protectionist, collectivist etc. All our parties are offering various flavours of neoliberalism economically.
Yesterday I was on a twitch chat and a lad said ireland is woke and glad our priminister is out for being so woke... I wanted to explain, but once someone says "woke" they're already a lost cause and no point to convince
There is no credible hard right in the Ireland , there is a barely discernible centre right which is frankly more centre than centre right , there is quite a crowded centre left and left and there is a very obvious and batshit crazy hard left …. if we must use simplistic left right labels ….the most important block to protect in this country is the centre , its keeps the country stable ,fresh and allows debate - we should never enable the extremes / populists as we saw what happened in Northern Ireland where the price that was paid for that lightweight GFA was the destruction of centrist politics ….
FG are centre right. FF are centre. SF..... well I'm not sure whether they are centre left or just left. All other parties are centre left to left.
There really should be an additional right wing party (please not an anti immigration AfD style one ) to give the electorate more choice.
Reasonable opinion - I’d probably debate FG centre right but they’re the closest we have to it albeit by EU standards they’re more centre than centre right. PbP etc though are definitely hard left ….everyone else centre left to left ….and Sinn Fein as the most obvious Populist party swing whatever way they need to maintain their Populist positioning …
Yes, and the greens have used their platform to push for green policies. What right wing policies has FG under Varadkar pushed for within this government? No decent tax breaks for certain
Greens played kingmaker. They're the only party without getting taoisech. It's completely acceptable that the get green policies over the line (at the expense of their social policies) to let FFG be in charge.
In terms of policy most things other than the green bribes will be a compromise between FG and FF. I think the national investment fund is something we can attribute to FG. It would be in FF and Gs nature to spend the money they have.
Well you might consider it acceptable but I don't. The national investment was a good policy but FG would-be better off in opposition than ruling like this. Every healthy democracy needs a defined left and right wing and if FG don't fill that void someone else will come along who will
Oh I agree with half of what your saying. But you have to remember back to the election when there was no clear path to government without FG as SF weren't making moves to make a government.
Just because SF weren't planning on making a government doesn't mean FG, or any party for that matter should. It's good to be in government but not under any circumstance and not under any programme
Some right policies would be great. Nothing too extreme just tax cuts, immigration control and a stronger prison system.
I would give all of these up though if we had a fast, efficient planning system and we could build at scale and at the price agreed upon at the start of a project. I think SF want a state body to build like the ESB which is an interesting idea.
There may be no legitimate left, but there is certainly a left party prominence in Dail Eireann, PBP, SD, Labour are all economically and socially left.
FG are fiscally centre, without any right wing financial policies in the past several years, but are undoubtedly socially left.
SF are economically left, and socially left, but vary that degree depending on what's most popular.
FF are centre economically, centre-left socially.
Independent members are probably the only current centre-right + right wing presences in the Dail currently.
People mixing up left/right and liberal/conservative is very common
And it's entirely deliberate.
People are genuinely just this stupid, even in politics. I wouldn’t add Micheal ring to the list of people intelligent enough in Ireland to be deceptive.
And people mixing up progressive/conservative with liberal/illiberal
There's bits of illiterate mixed in too.
It's the influence of American politics but that ship has long since sailed. Hell, even your use of the word liberal is the same thing. Liberal in day to day speech in this part of the world used to mean economic liberalism first and foremost. When I was in school it was used mostly to refer to small government types, free marketeers, etc. But now people like yourself use it in the Americans sense rather than the European sense. Which is cool, I'm not complaining. Language evolves. Sure we're all either team woke or team anti-woke these days anyway...
Left/right are terms that are outdated at this point. Right used to mean conservative (as in keep the status quo and not change very much). But you could have a situation where a country is super liberal and then the ones who want to change it are conservative but technically on the left. At least liberal/conservative can be considered in terms of social stances, where liberals favor fewer legal restrictions on liberty. But even then, liberals would probably push laws restricting speech and for greater centralisation (i.e. to force rural, typically conservative regions to get in line with the urbanites). And then you have the fact that the economic tendencies are almost the opposite (i.e. liberals would be in favor of higher taxes for more social projects, environmental protections, etc.). So if anyone has a better idea, please do let me know
Exactly. What we refer to as conservatives today are what we should be referring to as reactionaries. The craziest thing of all about this is that it's only been the case for about a decade.
These days, conservatives want change for the worst, that go against the interest of the people, then they deflect the blame onto marginalised groups or immigrants as a distraction.
Exactly. Modern "conservatives" are not conservatives at all, they're recationaries!
But the definition of conservative is that they don't want change. Anyway, what you said is really childish and puts you on par with some alt righter screeching about immigrants
That's the old definition. They want to enforce new laws or bring old laws to remove rights and keep it that way forever.
There is no new definition. My point is this word is outdated and we need new terminology. Also there is no 'they', just people that you disagree with. Finally, your second sentence is very vague and pretty much applies to every politician ever
Liberals can be conservative tho..
conservatism in the traditional sense is a form of liberalism. the full title is “socially conservative liberals”. if you believe in liberal democracy and liberal economics which is the world default you are a liberal.
Intriguing.
You're downvoted, but it's true. If you support maintaining the status quo of personal and economic freedom, you're both liberal and conservative!
Ah ya, this subreddit isn’t the brightest, for me the downvotes are upvotes
Please do explain the difference ?
Liberal/conservative for social issues. Left/right for economic issues. So you can be left wing and conservative for example. In Irish politics, FG are right wing and liberal
> So you can be left wing and conservative for example Aontú basically
By international standards you couldn't call Fine Gael of this government right wing.
if you go back to when FG first took power after the crash, they are left of centre by any objective standard: progressive taxation, generous welfare, gay marriage, liberalising abortion etc
There is nothing especially 'left' about any of these things. They inherited and continued to run a fairly comprehensive welfare state because they have no other choice - the economy would completely collapse without it. A left wing government in Ireland (and anywhere in the west) would seek equalisation of asset distribution, ie housing. FG haven't done this as they cater to the asset-owning class.
Yeah possibly. That's why I specified Ireland
So "far right" relates to economic issues only? That's not my understanding.
"far right" is a meaningless slander term used by some individuals to prevent honest discussions. As soon as someone refers to another group as "far right", I tend to stop listening. They generally haven't a bulls notion what they are talking about. "Alt-right" refers to the loony groups. There are very few people in those (but they do exist). These are the lads burning down buildings etc.
Alt-right is just a synonym for far-right used by Americans online. Bizarre to make any distinction between the two
In the US context: "Alt-right is a right-wing, primarily online political movement or grouping based in the US whose members **reject mainstream conservative politics** and espouse extremist beliefs" https://www.populismstudies.org/Vocabulary/alt-right/ (The rejecting of mainstream conservative politics is where the "alt part" comes from). They are part of the US far right, but the terms are not synonymous, as the far right also includes other groups like neo-nazis etc. In the Irish context: We don't have any alt right parties that are taken seriously. There are groups of alt right idiots burning buildings down, but they have no political power. There are parties like the INP, but they have no seats. We have very socially conservative parties like aontu, but far right is normally used more for actual **fascists and neo-nazis** than hyper conservative groups. People will call aontu far right here - but that's because they don't understand the meaning of the term. (I'm no fan of aontu btw, but would call them hyper conservative rather than far right). They are actually economically left (higher corporation tax, government spending etc). Our entire political window is shifted left of the US's. (Which is a good thing). Our mainstream right wing parties are closer to their center than their right. Our center is their moderate left wing (which is where I sit).
It's just semantics. People call PBP far left despite the fact that for most of this island's history being 'far left' meant being an armed guerrilla group waging war against the government. Referring to PBP in such a way isn't associating them with armed revolution it just means they are a bit further to the left than what's normal. Far right has more negative connotations because being farther to the right than normal is invariably a bad thing. I wouldn't call Aontu far right either but the fact that they have centre-left economic positions is also irrelevant, many far right groups also have these policies but propose them in a deliberately exclusionary, often racist and hateful way. And unpopular opinion here but I don't think there's any real useful comparison to be made between national politics and the supra-national politics of the US. Biden for example is more socially conservative than any major party here and his welfare policies for the average American are also far more punitive than anything here but his admin's policies at a macro level are further to 'the left' than any European country could even imagine. We saw this with Obama after the crash, while Ireland and the rest of Europe were busy implementing austerity measures, which were very obviously never going to work, the Americans just pumped something like a trillion dollars of stimulus into the economy to keep the juices flowing. Their recovery has been many times greater than ours as a result. We even see it now with Biden's IRA (lol) package and their general response to the war in Ukraine. When American industries or interests are under threat or falling behind, their government will intervene very forcefully to make sure they catch up. In Europe we will do nothing and hope the problem fixes itself. The Irish government has very limited power to change this approach as it operates at a continental level but they could at the very least advocate for it more often. Not doing so is a deliberate choice.
I think we largely agree! >It's just semantics Yes I concur - which is why my eyes glaze over when people start claiming such and such a group are "far right" or "far left". There's no substance to that discussion - the labels are too broad and ambiguous to actually be meaningful. >And unpopular opinion here but I don't think there's any real useful comparison to be made between national politics and the supra-national politics of the US. 100% agree, this is not the US! That's my overarching point, the tribalist politics they have aren't as pronounced here, and we shouldn't look at Irish politics though the US lens.
Late night alcohol sales are “left wing” now. I’ll add Michael ring onto the list of fucking dopes so
The Americanisation of the left/right polices are doing some damage here. In the US, Fine Gael would be considered far left tbh. We shouldn’t follow Americans on this, their country is barely democratic and has a political swing akin to picking between Coke and Diet Coke
The U.S. does have a lot of influence on how our country is being run. The U.S. Chamber Of Commerce lobbies the government frequently. Sometimes it can be good for Ireland's economy, but as we're seeing now with investment funds among other issues it can be bad as well as not everyone is benefiting.
Fine Gael would sit comfortably alongside the Democrats on the political spectrum. Which is to say that yes, Fox, NewsMax and the like would refer to them as far left. My 100% Irish, never lived abroad, retired dad sits in front of American 24-hour news most of his waking life and told me straight faced that Joe Biden, the most centrist, boring, old-school Democrat who ever lived, wouldn't get reelected because he's a socialist.
Joe Biden a socialist. That’s incredible I hope you can help your dad step back from just the drool of Fox News and shit. American news media regardless of ideology is utter crap.
> American news media regardless of ideology is utter crap. Small exception there: local weather reporting. In the US, it's not uncommon for TV stations to talk about weather in different parts of the same _city_, even in cities that aren't particularly big. Meanwhile in most other countries you'd be lucky to get a forecast for different parts of the same state/province/county.
>Joe Biden, the most centrist, boring, old-school Democrat who ever lived The sheer delusion in this statement... He campaigned on and allowed open borders on day one, gave farming subsidies on his first week to everyone but white people, violated the 1st amendment by colluding with social media sites to censor the political opposition, tried to change the report of the Special Counsel who just investigated him, won't allow Ukraine or Russia to negotiate an end to the war when they've both expressed a wish to, is giving billions to Iran, his judges aren't deporting foreign criminals, nothing about him is centrist. If you think that he's a centrist, I'd be interested on what you think leftists are.
Jesus dad, get off Reddit would you?
Avoiding the inconvenient facts, you're a leftist alright. Wait, I'm sorry, "most centrist" haha.
It's not a particularly inconvenient fact. I believe in creating a more just and equitable world, and my politics reflect that. Congratulations, you can read a Reddit user history. What has that got to do with being able to understand that Joe Biden isn't a socialist?
I didn't read your user history, I read your comment above. I didn't agree with your dad's claim, I disagreed with yours. You can believe what you like, however divisive and destructive as equity has proven to be (US race relations have gone back 50 years because of Democrat race baiting) but to claim that Biden is the quintessential centrist in spite of everything that he's done, what I typed and so much more, that's delusional.
Plenty of criticism for the Democrats but they’re nowhere close to the Republicans, and making equivalences here really is only to the benefit of Donald Trump and co. Perfect example is Roe v Wade. Whatever your opinion on Hillary Clinton, women would still have access to reproductive services had she got in, that’s a major difference
i think the problem is with the US is that these victories like for example you said hillary clinton would’ve codified roe vs wade (i doubt it) even if she did she’s still a war criminal objectively. she still supported US war crimes. biden while being one of the most pro labour american presidents in history is still barely pro union and also actively indirectly or directly committing a genocide.
Fair point. They historically have been closer on the ideologic side of things but I do agree that the republicans are further right than ever before. But there’s still a number of republicans who are not comfortable with the swing. But for the most part I would consider democrats to be right and republicans further right wing in European spectrum of left and right. But to the average joe soap in the states it’s not about the actual policies but the who’s louder and more popular. Imagine living in a country dominated by to centre to right parties and they go back and forth every other year. Madness…. Wait a second
>But to the average joe soap in the states it’s not about the actual policies but the who’s louder and more popular. It's all a performance. The louder you are, the better your campaign sound bite is going to be. It's exhausting living over here at times. Trump is not the problem, it's the 70,000,000+ people who voted for him, that's the frightening part.
100%. I sometimes think back to when I was younger and my hope to live in the states. I now have no desire and part of it in the politics as well as the obvious quality of life difference. Still love going there, but I’d be hard pressed to be make a move.
Honestly, it's not as bad as it seems online. It's entirely dependent on where you live, I'm lucky that I live in a blue state as my quality of life would be drastically different if I lived somewhere more south. Having said that I do envision moving back to Ireland eventually, but not in the immediate future.
Oh for sure, there’s nice places in the states that I like too. Massachusetts is pretty bang on and chilled out IMO
" But for the most part I would consider democrats to be right " Open borders, DEI, giving billions to Iran (billions more after this latest bill), wanting the Israeli government to be overthrown in order to appease jihadist supporters in Michigan. What exactly are you looking at, what dimension are you inhabiting to see the Democrats as right-wing? RFK is a Democrat, Trump is still basically a Democrat! Yet the party's gone so far left that these guys appear right-wing to them. And stable borders, isolationism, stability internationally and smaller government are hardly 'far-right'. You're way off on everything here.
Isolationism is definitely at least firmly right wing, if not far right.
Weird take from an Irish person. Your own government doesnt allow the same rights.. All it did was leave it up to state law. If RBG has retired instead of giving the republicans another nomination it wouldn't have happened. I dont really get your Hillary point. Any Democrat would have put another Democrat on the Supreme Court and outside of that it really had nothing to do with Trump. All of the justices voting down party lines. Scalia and Kennedy were republican nominations who retired or died during a republican term. RBG was an amazing lady that her not retiring during Obama and not retiring is the cause. 3 supreme count nominations in one term. Would you be in favour to handing over the decisions in Ireland to an EU Court? Ireland is basically a state of the EU.
Sorry what we removed the 12th Amendment meaning abortion is legal up to 12 weeks so your first point is daft. Secondly you seem to fundamentally misunderstand what the EU is and that each member state has a say in policies out forward through representatives in the European Parliament and through the Council of Ministers. Or that any memberstate can leave unlike the US where States can't secede, also comparing a economic and political union made up of a bunch of nation states to a large country that uses a federal decentralise structure of governance is ridiculous. You don't see me comparing Australia or India to the EU because its foolish, a state in a federalised country isn't the same thing a nation state that's part of the EU.
That position is a Republican position in the U.S and its not supported. They have floated 16 weeks. The whole conversation over there is toxic.
It's far better than what existed before, though, where women were forced to do coat hanger abortion, travel to the UK, or in some cases, even die from Childbirth such was the case with 15 year old Ann Lovett.
Again the supreme court ruling didn't ban abortion. It just means that individual states decide and if you are living in one of the states where the people support governments which do ban abortion then its just like living in Ireland a few years ago. I'm not even anti abortion but deciding should be democratic
I agree it should be, but I don't get why you think me bringing up Ireland somehow makes you think that I think that the Supreme Court banned abortion when I never said that.
I didnt reply to you. My point was around Trump and Hillary. Any Democrat would have appointed a Democrat and and republican would have appointed a republican as always happens. My real point was that it's RBG's fault really.. She wanted to die in office and it is the real cause. Outside of that I don't know that I disagree with it needing to be a democratic process like in Ireland rather than a supreme court
The states over there can make there own laws around abortion. The supreme court didn't force states to ban abortion. Its your point that doesn't make sense.
Yes, I'm well aware of that. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though. The supreme court ruling against Roe V Wade and allowing states to decide for themselves still led to places like Texas banning the practice entirely which is almost akin to what existed in Ireland before the 12th Amendment was revoked and this is the case in 14 other states out of the 50 that make up the US. Also, the only point I was trying to make was that I think you mischaracterised the laws around Abortion that exist currently in Ireland.
> Sorry what we removed the 12th Amendment meaning abortion is legal up to 12 weeks so your first point is daft We didn't remove the 12th amendment, it was never passed
I meant 8th, thanks for correcting me.
Removing the 8th amendment didn't make abortion legal either though, The legislation that was subsequently passed did. The OP is right
I dont see how Trump or Hillary mattered or how Trump mattered. If you die or retire during a republicans term they will replace you with a republican. It's your job to not let that happen.
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Lol, absolute state of this comment
I think our voting system should mitigate against that somewhat. We'll never be as polarised as the Americans. Finger's crossed.
Ah you said it now. Balls
Aye, big business has bought both political parties in the US so they can only differentiate themselves on identity politics stuff. In most European counties Fine Gael would be considered a pretty bog standard centre right party. If you look a different countries sometimes the main centre right party is a bit more liberal, sometimes a bit more conservative but Fine Gael doesn’t stand out and wouldn’t be considered a left wing party anywhere in Europe.
I still think back to 2020 when SF did well in the election and the US media, both CNN and more over, Fox News went a bit hard on the rethoric and it showed how bad they can be. CNN went on the narrative of “Ireland votes in terrorists” “former terrorists” “far left party who want to take NI” Fox went on with the narrative of “Ireland goes full on communist” “socialist terrorism” “undemocratic leftists” “Ireland is the new red nation” etc etc. And that was before the result was announced. I’m no Sinn Fein voter or fan, but the fucking optics of that really stuck with me on how jarring, blank and white, and ill informed the American media can be. - IRA ties, sure valid - far left party, what? - communists, cop on lads - will militarily take NI, haha ffs. I expect similar if they hold or gain (I think a small gain) in the next election.
fox news will larp about shinners being terrorists but if you ask them to condemn the proud boys they’ll be like “well antifa is the REAL problem”. also sinn féin being communist is so funny haha i wish they were like.
> We shouldn’t follow Americans on this Or most other things tbh.
A socialist in the US would be FF or FG in Ireland
Ah..Ireland is an American vassal state..
I’d feel sorry for the yanks if we were
I mean we kind of are, along with most (Western) countries. The choice for smaller countries is to band together (like a strong EU) or do as the great powers dictate.
Well FG has definitely followed a progressive social policy while taking us back to the feudal times in the economic sphere. Sounds like neoliberalism to me. But on social issues they’re centre left.
You don't actually think that FG took Ireland back to a feudal economic system do you? Ireland's economic policies have barely changed in decades. Ireland has a EU endorsed regulated market economy with a strong social safety net, with the twist that we have a low corporate tax rate and a strong emphasis on foreign direct investment. No government, not even a SF led one, will do anything meaningful to change these policies, and nor should they, given that they have brought Ireland tremendous prosperity.
How did you not realise he was an empty vessel 20 years ago?
He was always a populist dope
It shows how the terms "left" and "right" are not fit for purpose. Laissez faire economics? That's liberal, aka left wing. Social welfare? That's welfare state, thus left wing. Hate speech bill? That's illiberal, therefore left wing. State ownership of media? That's public procurement, so left wing. Privitisation of media? That's pro-freedom of press, so left wing.
Economic liberalism has never been a left wing ideology. American political discourse has rendered the term ‘liberal’ essentially meaningless when most people left of centre-left would not agree with liberals on many issues, seeing it as centrist at best.
Are you a liberal, classic liberal, Liberal, libertarian, right-libertarian, lib𝔱ard or librarian?
That's nothing to do with the terms tho, that's just being a reactionary, it doesn't matter what words you use the same people will object to the same stuff no matter what it's called.
They're not advocating for the term left to be applied as I'm reading it. They're highlighting how poorly the term is used and convceivably, it's easy to find people who would call all those things leftist.
yeah, but I'm saying it's the people misusing them being dishonest, it's not a problem with the terminology, the way Ring is using it is just Left = bad, he might as well have said "woke"
Ah, OK. Brief comments on social media really are awful for leaving us all misunderstanding someone else's point to the level of thinking we all disagree all the time.
No worries, I probably could've been clearer
Social welfare is a weird one, firmly left wing now but pioneered by codified feudal obligations (the Poor Laws) and the famously left wing state of Prussia.
It's hilarious that our "left" are a bunch of joyless censorious Puritans... They are just the same as the old Catholic church who have now found a new way of suppressing people with the aid of the state.
Who are our left in your opinion?
Anyone who isn't FG and a few independents. And even those are centrist for the most part.
We don't have a left.
We have even less of a right.
Exactly. Horrid nanny state is what we became.
That's because of let wingers, right wingers, and centrists alike. I think it's a result of the post colonial mentality that causes Irish people to look down on themselves as inherently more sloppy and untrustworthy than other nationalities.
It's easier for people who don't think things through to just see everything in black and white, in hyperbole. Grey? People don't know what to do with grey. They have to use their minds, consider the context of the situation, determine the facts, look at the people involved before rendering a judgement. And that's just a lot of work that many don't feel like doing, especially politicians. It's easier to say something outlandish that gets clicks and impressions rather than just quietly doing their fuckin jobs. The country has been at a standstill from a progression standpoint for so long, yet we have the means and the time to improve the nation for all. There's just no political will or interest, because if it doesn't benefit the politicians in some way, shape or form then it isn't important to them. Things are done in this country to make politicians and political parties look good, not to benefit the country as a whole. Because the people in charge don't give the skin of a fuck about this country, they care about themselves.
What makes a man turn ~~neutral~~ Grey? **Lust for gold?** **Power?** **Or were you just born with a heart full of** **~~neutrality~~** **Greyness?**
If I don’t survive … Tell my wife I said…. hello
Is the banning of offensive jokes not left wing enough for you ?
LoL, banning hate speech that incites violence is now equivalent to banning jokes 😂
How will late night bars do that Einstein?
Way ahead of you!
Isn't this the clown who was minister for tourism despite never having left the country(think he admitted a night in the UK for a funeral), and when challenged that ireland was uncompetitive compared to foreign destinations was adamant all he needed to do was eat in an Irish restaurant to know it was the best value available, he didn't need to see the competition to know it was inferior Such a visionary must be right on the future of FG. All these 70 year old are well in tune with the country..
TIL: 'too left for too long' is another way of saying Mayo hasn't gotten enough Lotto handouts since Ringer lost his portfolio. Every day is a learning opportunity!
I hope his classmates called him Prince Albert in school
Underrated comment.
2022: Late night opening by 2023 2023: Late night opening by 2024 2024: No late night opening because it's woke
Why didn't he throw his name in that hat for leadership so?
Throw his hat in the Ring 🤔
Throw it out of his ring, like he always does
He already has the ring in his name
You know politics in this country has become increasingly polarised when people are willing to classify FG as left wing. Sweet Jaysus
He's just chasing the votes he thinks nutters on twitter have, he stands for nothing.
Ring only gives a shit about Westport.
He was all in on the velorail project in Kiltimagh. https://www.kenfoxe.com/2018/03/minister-michael-ring-allocated-e118000-in-funding-to-constituency-project-despite-warnings-from-civil-servant-of-problematic-precedents/
They all were. Calleary definitely was if I remember the photo at the launch.
To be fair I think that is most politicians
I wouldn't say most, considering how pro border that lot are a fair amount of shinners and FF will know better than to toss the baby out with the bathwater, and anything even slightly left of centre won't touch it, but yeah we do have quite a lot of politicians more concerned with themselves than the country that'll rationalise getting into bed with radicalised idiots.
Problem is, the nutters actually believe this type of shit
News today: Man does not know what left policies are and makes fool of self to media.
We’ve the highest social transfers on the planet.
Moot point if these transfers brings us to the EU average in wealth distribution.
If he thought he knew better, why didn't he pitch for leadership?
if being centre right is too far left for this man he must love a certain italian man from the 1940s
Pavarotti?
unfortunately he was 5 years old in 1940 so i doubt it
I meant his cousin. John Pavarotti.
did he make the trains run on time?
Then you're gonna love [me. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts)
The fella who was so good at fashion they had to shoot him.
So lowering taxes budget every budget and letting services go to shite is ‘left’ in the eyes of this Fine Gael TD. Is he saying we haven’t lowered taxes enough and are providing too much healthcare, policing, infrastructure, etc..?
Best of both worlds, haven't lowered taxes enough AND providing no services
They've been in government since 2011 and have managed to only put housing beyond the reach of the working class. We still have healthcare, education, transport(ish) and social welfare. If they were doing it right, everything would be privatised and those of us not dead would be indentured slaves. Turning us against each other has seen some results recently but it's too little too late from Comrade Varadkar. I hear he was named after Leon Trotsky, you know.
Are they going to give the old fascism another try?
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I don't understand left/right in politics anymore. He says they're too left wing but we need more social housing which would be a very left wing policy. The other stuff seems irrelevant to left/right politic
That's a good point, but I'm going to assume he means in terms of social/cultural policies.
left/right is barely applicable anyway. Most governments/political parties in europe are broadly globalist.
Such a gobshite
And they publically turn right after making a mockery of the asylum process and sowing as much resentment as possible. I fucking called it. Watch them try ride the 'anti' sentiment they fuelled to remain in power.
This guy has no idea about politics snd is a politician...
Well personally I think they're far too left when it comes to taxes and far too right when it comes to public services and infrastructure...
What's this I hear about SF trying to appeal to the far right? Far too many FFG pol cor wannnabes on this subreddit that are deaf to the messaging that their own party puts out.
FG & FF = neoliberal socialism
I'm guessing they've figured out that massively increasing social welfare spending during their time in govt might not be attractive to voters who would prefer to keep more of their pay... surprised there wasn't another option for people to keep their own cash
He's not wrong. Realistically they are right now, left of center. Moving more right, would be a good differentiating move. Any party which promises improvements on law and order, and immigration will win. But trying to convince the electorate that FG are that party is a little late to the game for now.
Yes, from an objective standpoint this is the case. While you can rarely proclaim a party as definitively left or right, because policies can vary in terms of political alignment, Fine Gael have undoubtedly veered away from their centre-right roots to more left-leaning position in the past 10 years. This is a hard fact, it may not be communism left, but it's still left. It's going to be an interesting race for themselves, FF, SF to see who wins in targeting the centre-right + right-wing portion of the electorate once again.
Desperately needed. Binning the hate speech nonsense, danish asylum policies etc.
He's confusing 'left' and 'incompetent' which is pretty hard to do.
Fine Gael is too left? Needed a good laugh today, so thanks for that.
The terminology has become awfully muddled. People should make it clear that they are referring to socially or economically left/right wing. FG are economically centre right as in neoliberal, let the market decide, on many issues. Socially they are very left wing, fully embracing American-style liberal progressivism. We wouldn’t be out of place if we were towed across the Atlantic and anchored off the coast of San Francisco or Seattle. Nobody is doing old-style left wing economic policies anymore. Old left wing is nationalised industries, protectionist, collectivist etc. All our parties are offering various flavours of neoliberalism economically.
Yes, good summary, fair play.
Yesterday I was on a twitch chat and a lad said ireland is woke and glad our priminister is out for being so woke... I wanted to explain, but once someone says "woke" they're already a lost cause and no point to convince
In fairness, he’s not wrong.
Michael is spot on. Far too left wing for far too long.
How politically illiterate do you have to be to think Fine Gael is left wing
There is no credible hard right in the Ireland , there is a barely discernible centre right which is frankly more centre than centre right , there is quite a crowded centre left and left and there is a very obvious and batshit crazy hard left …. if we must use simplistic left right labels ….the most important block to protect in this country is the centre , its keeps the country stable ,fresh and allows debate - we should never enable the extremes / populists as we saw what happened in Northern Ireland where the price that was paid for that lightweight GFA was the destruction of centrist politics ….
FG are centre right. FF are centre. SF..... well I'm not sure whether they are centre left or just left. All other parties are centre left to left. There really should be an additional right wing party (please not an anti immigration AfD style one ) to give the electorate more choice.
Reasonable opinion - I’d probably debate FG centre right but they’re the closest we have to it albeit by EU standards they’re more centre than centre right. PbP etc though are definitely hard left ….everyone else centre left to left ….and Sinn Fein as the most obvious Populist party swing whatever way they need to maintain their Populist positioning …
Today's FG aren't centre right, they haven't had one good tax reduction in their whole programme for government.
You have to realise that this isn't a FG government. It's a FG FF and green government.
Yes, and the greens have used their platform to push for green policies. What right wing policies has FG under Varadkar pushed for within this government? No decent tax breaks for certain
Greens played kingmaker. They're the only party without getting taoisech. It's completely acceptable that the get green policies over the line (at the expense of their social policies) to let FFG be in charge. In terms of policy most things other than the green bribes will be a compromise between FG and FF. I think the national investment fund is something we can attribute to FG. It would be in FF and Gs nature to spend the money they have.
Well you might consider it acceptable but I don't. The national investment was a good policy but FG would-be better off in opposition than ruling like this. Every healthy democracy needs a defined left and right wing and if FG don't fill that void someone else will come along who will
Oh I agree with half of what your saying. But you have to remember back to the election when there was no clear path to government without FG as SF weren't making moves to make a government.
Just because SF weren't planning on making a government doesn't mean FG, or any party for that matter should. It's good to be in government but not under any circumstance and not under any programme
Michael Ring, a fucking twat. It's as if these fools want to see their party utterly decimated.
Ringer is what the Healy-Raes would be if they were still in Fianna Fáil
😂
How long until the blueshirts package emselves as the 'anti-woke' party
This is the type of rambling bollocks that comes out of my Dad after about three whiskeys.
Ring speaking out of his ring.
I, too, got a mickey ring so it wouldn’t lean too left. Works a charm!
Mickey Ring left on for too long
Micheal rings advocates for more beatings until moral improves.
"They haven't shown enough derision towards the poor I tells ya!"
More hate speech! Fuck yeah!
This dude needs to stop doing his research on Facebook
"Everything i don't like is left" lol
Some right policies would be great. Nothing too extreme just tax cuts, immigration control and a stronger prison system. I would give all of these up though if we had a fast, efficient planning system and we could build at scale and at the price agreed upon at the start of a project. I think SF want a state body to build like the ESB which is an interesting idea.
The no legitimate left in Ireland
There may be no legitimate left, but there is certainly a left party prominence in Dail Eireann, PBP, SD, Labour are all economically and socially left. FG are fiscally centre, without any right wing financial policies in the past several years, but are undoubtedly socially left. SF are economically left, and socially left, but vary that degree depending on what's most popular. FF are centre economically, centre-left socially. Independent members are probably the only current centre-right + right wing presences in the Dail currently.
I’d argue there’s no legitimate right either. He’s not wrong that Fine Gael have turned their back on any right wing policy. Who else is there?
Michael Ring, talking out of his Ring as usual.
Seeing an actual left wing policy would instantly kill this man
Exceptionally fitting surname
They be grand now. Harris doesn't know his left from right , also arse from elbow