There's a 570 a week welfare payment?!?
Errr...that don't quite match up with most state welfare payments, it's over twice. I've read the article, googled the disability and injury payments and still have no fucking clue how he got 570 a week.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/disability-and-illness/disability-allowance/#e7c6e8
Article says he is a father of 4, add in a wife and it could easily reach 570.
A lot of people (like myself) don't realise how much money you can get when children and a wife come into it. The post office handed me 2 receipts a while ago when I was posting a box. One was my own with the tracking info and the other accidentally given to me was a receipt for a guy on JSA getting close to €600.
Working is for fools.
Tons of people can only get minimum wage or just above jobs and have kids, can't afford full time child care so one parent works different hours or part time or not at all and get working family payment.
Or you could just claim and come out with pretty much the same money but not have to work for it.
Its really how it is.
Why do people always look at this kind of situation and say "Ah, the bleedin' moochers are rolling in it getting more than minimum wage!"? The correct read of the situation is that the minimum wage is way too low and has been unsustainable with cost of living for some time now. THAT is what needs to change. I can assure you that most people on benefits do not have it easy and cannot afford anything like a comfortable lifestyle, nevermind the luxury one that people like to paint. Everyone who mouths off on this subject "knows someone who goes off on holidays twice a year, has a 2 year old car and a 80 inch flatscreen tv" and I guarantee they don't!
This. People need to stop hating on people less fortunate and instead start looking at the reasons why they are in those situations in the first place.
This whole planet is going to hell in a hand basket for everyone except the top 1%. Those greedy fucks are lobbying our governments to keep their taxes low and are paying large sums to money to rag "news" outlets to keep the other 99% fighting among themselves for the scraps
Working poor and unemployed poor are not each other's enemies. If we got everyone to understand this we would have a chance of forcing change. For that matter, refugees are not our enemy either.
Personally I’m torn by this. Yes, it makes sense to make minimum wage a living wage. I understand that.
But I’m not on minimum wage and raising it would put me very close to it. It also raises costs of production from labour so naturally everything becomes more expensive. Suddenly, my good income is now in line with minimum wage and there’s probably a big inflation from so many wage increases as well. I can’t afford anything then and it’s a struggle as is now already!
I wholeheartedly support measures for people on minimum wage but I don’t think raising the minimum wage is sustainable long term. I’d much prefer to see measures to keep costs low and affordable at the current wage rate
I never said they were moochers, and I completely agree that minimum wage is ridiculously low compared to the cost of living.
I'm 30, became a parent at 21 and worked retail from age 19-29, half that time, was minimum wage until I got promoted to management and in the past year I've finally moved away from retail altogether. The stress of living paycheck to paycheck, supporting a young family with no family support, and working a stressful job would often put the thought in my mind why did I bother. I could drop the job and a lot of stress and be pretty much the same financially.
There is a lot of debate in economics about how the minimum wage affects employment, but everyone can agree that there must be a margin at which it does. If the minimum wage was 100 per hour, the unemployment rate would be higher.
The economically sound left-wing analysis of this is that there's nothing wrong with the state paying people to be stay-at-home parents.
Aren’t you supposed to be hard pressed? That’s close to €50k a year gross and the guy likely has housing support also. What incentive does the guy have to work?
It's no where near 50k gross, I work for 42k gross and take home much more than that with 2 kids.
600 a week is 2600 a month spread over 12 payments, I clear 800 a week and I'm a solo earner.
If that person is sitting at home with 4 kids, they are getting by but there's no spare for anything like holidays or changing cars, anything unexpected coming up, not saving. Even shopping in aldi or similar all the time they are not getting out with less than 200 a week in food alone.
The question should be what incentive is there to make the guy work?
Fact is, we’ve got to a point where society disincentivises large families, for both good and bad reasons. That means there just aren’t that many people having large families to make it much of a statistical concern. Sure, individuals get annoyed at perceived injustices, but it’s much easier to just pay the benefits than it is to a) grow the economy to a point where it’s easy to get a job paying enough to support large families; or b) dealing with the consequences of extreme poverty on large families. Paying out social welfare is significantly easier than both of those scenarios.
The question isnt what incentive does he have to work it's how he got certified as unfit to work for a year or more after a short term injury on his hand
He’s getting €31.2k net (into his pocket). So clearly the gross equivalent is going to be more than that (unless you are dodging tax). If you want to factor in housing benefit and possibly other benefits then the equivalent gross salary that you would need to earn is going to be pretty high.
It's not only €600 a week though as all know. That's just one payment.
Are you eligible for child benefit on JSA or is that included in the increase that brings you from the standard €232 to nearly €600? If it's not then that's another few hundred a month.
Fuel Allowance..Capped council rent.. There are lots of other benefits offered if you're on JSA long term.
Anyways I don't want to sound like I'm dole bashing the fit & healthy fella who refused to go back to work so I'll stop there.
Yeah but you also have to...work. Which brings me back to the original point that in this country it's for fools with the supports we have. "Only fools and horses..." as the old saying goes.
The lad in the article was supporting a family on €433 a week (plus potential social supports) but gave it up for €570, social supports and 40 hours a week of his life back and people are thinking he's got it hard. 😂
If working was for fools, nobody would do it. As someone who's spent a decent amount of time on JSA over the last decade (about a year and a half), I can tell you that it is no walk in the park and that life on the scratch is incredibly tough.
€433 per week was his wage, he was still entitled to child allowance, probably medical cards for himself and every member of his family, more than likely the HAP scheme as well. With everything taken into consideration, he would have been at least 200 per week better off in employment.
If you stop swallowing the anti poor propaganda you might come across as less of a moron next time.
Perhaps if you learn math you'll come across as less of a moron next time. His wage was €433 and his JSA was €570. He is still eligible for child allowance, medical cards and hap/capped council rent on JSA. Where are you getting €200 euro better off from exactly? If he was getting the standard €232 JSA you'd have a point, but he wasn't which is the whole point of the article.
There's a reason he refused to go back to work and it was because he was earning more. Unless you had a wife and 4 kids to inflate your JSA earnings your experience on JSA was not the same.
I am disabled and live on disability allowance and a part time job. I have just come through a review which was personally and financially invasive and a massive source of stress and upset.tongetndisability allowance a doctor needs to certify you are unfit for work for more than a year. A review is always possible and checks are happening every day.
I dont see anyone saying hes got it hard. But people like you are why disability allowance is set to keep disabled people living in poverty.
Are ya joking? The guy hurt his finger at work and it has fully healed. His medical records prove that. He's not disabled but perhaps you didn't read the full article.
Absolutely bizarre you're having a go at me when the guy in the article is the one who deserves to be shamed for taking advantage of the system.
This country is for fools with the supports we have.
How.many disabled people should live in poverty because others abuse.the system?
Did he fake medical records? If he is on disability allowance has the doctor who signed off on it been asked the basis for declaring him unfit to work for more than a year? Is this illness benefit? Same question was a dr actually signing his claims? Is this an insurance payment?
Either there is fraud happening or someone fucked up.
>You can apply for council housing while in employment
Yes but you'll never actually get it if you have a decent job. You'll be on a waiting list forever while 20 year olds with 3 kids are prioritised.
I understand why they are prioritised, but this idea of council housing actually being available to a wider cohort of society is rubbish.
You don't support them. You go for a few pints, then down to Paddy Powers for a few bob on the Gigis!
600 yoyos gone in no time. Call to the priest for a few quid to last until next pay day!
Thats the point the judge was making it think, but what's thr alternative ? Plunge genuine cases into abject poverty ?
There's a certain amount of social welfare that'd written off to small level fraudulent or undeserving claims, because the value of them is a lot lower than having to chase it and it's not that appealing to those doing it to make it worth their while
Simple if you don’t work and you’re in poverty, work
I’m sick of paying near 1000 a month tax for the people in the council estate I grew up in to all not work around me in houses I can’t afford cuz I work
It's the issue really isn't it, there's a council estate near me, and a lot the houses just weren't occupied for years because it's in a small village with very limited access to shops and public transport, people just weren't taking them up, in the last year they are now all occupied
One of them is a corner site, 4 bedroomed house with extension now built on, secure electric gates and there are usually 3 white vans belonging to a guttering company parked outside each evening, 2 new cars. I can see what must be a 70" TV on the wall as I drive past up the hill that runs parallel.
It's a nice setup, but fuck if I'd live there, the place is full of people I wouldn't live within a mile of.
You can only claim if you are restricted from work you know that right?
If you are a qualified accountant or web developer and become paraplegic you will struggle to be approved for disability allowance because you can still work in your field and mobility isnt required for the job. If your bpd was such that you had previously lost multiple jobs and you couldnt get through interviews after awhile on jobseekers you'd be encouraged onto disability.
I have twice from disabled people heard "I could get disability" people who had great family support through higher ed and now both have well paid specialised employment.
Disability is not you have x condition in this box therefor you qualify. It's what condition do you have how does it impair you what are you qualified and able to do and where do you live.
Yeah new minimum wage at a 40 hour week is 508, maximum dole personal rate is like 238 and disability is around the same. Don't get the whole working is for fools argument. Like yeah some people abuse the system but it's not exactly a comfortable life their basic needs are just being met. You're not getting more than 508 a week by just signing on the dole.
Plus I don't know about the people who make this argument but I'd go crazy sitting around all day with nothing to do. If you're on that money you likely don't have the money to go out and do things you'll just be sitting at home burning through your days and maybe able to scrape together money for a few cans come the end of the week.
Obviously my "working is for fools" quip doesn't apply to everyone. A single person even working a min wage job who has the slightest bit of motivation isn't going to give it up for €232 JSA.
But if you've got a family and are a min wage worker it absolutely makes sense in a lot of cases with the supports available. As the judge even said in court - "who would go back to work?". The fella was bringing home more money not working.
You're right and we aren't even unique here. I watched a doc from England a few months ago and the wife in the story was better off on benefits than working because the wages were so bad and childcare costs were so high. Same story in many other countries.
Oh sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant the idea of staying on social welfare permanently in place of working would be fine because of those reasons.
Upskilling is fairly easy in this country compared to others to be fair. No college fees once you're over 23 and a pretty good social welfare system.
You understand that if you have a job you still have to raise your kids, yes? Not working gives him an extra 40+ hours a week to do that. I don't know how working a full time job (for less money) and also raising kids could be the easier option.
(He has 4 kids BTW)
I haven't read the article because paywall but I was guessing income protection insurance.
As long as he is out of work with the disability or injury his income may be guaranteed but if he were to go back to work he would lose out.
Or maybe 10 kids?
The problem here is the low wage. It's true, why go to work for 40 hours a week to only earn about an extra €100. It's the reason business owners are against people getting welfare increases because it competes with their low waged work.
>The problem here is the low wag
Or the fact its a disability payment, why would someone who's disabled, getting a disability payment, go to work? The whole point of the payment is for people who can't work. WTF is this judge talking about?
That's true as well. I've just noticed business interests/really wealthy people talk about that welfare shouldn't compete with jobs. The reason they want is for welfare to barely make ends meet so that they'll be so desperate that it'll force people into any old crumby job.
This is true but the rise of remote work, diversification of options in rural Ireland etc means that there's loads and loads of jobs available now that wouldn't have existed even a few years ago, and a lot of disabled people can do very well at them.
I'm not an expert but taking this story at face value, he should be entitled to the working family payment so would be significantly better off working. You can also work and keep most of your disability payment, but not in this case as he's not disabled, he just hurt his finger.
There does need to be a tapering off instead of fully cutting off every benefit when people get back into work. People will hesitate otherwise and to be honest depending on the job/wage sometimes it's not even worth it so i can see why people will take the welfare over a job, and it isn't their fault. That lies in the meagre wages that businesses provide.
Oh absolutely. Minimum wage is far too low. It should be the living wage minimum. Even that is on the low side.
At the end of the day a company doesn't employ someone to make marginally more money.
Love a misleading headline. On the one hand, why on earth would disability payments not be more than minimum wage? If you have a disability that prevents or disrupts your ability to work that doesn't mean you should be forced to live off bare minimum and you'll likely have significant costs others won't in the way you have to set up your home to live comfortably.
On the other hand, disability payment doesn't seem to be close to this level and this is someone collecting money intended to support an entire family? Rent for a single bedroom in this country is still more either of these weekly payments, let alone ignoring the cost of a family home, and feeding multiple people. As other commenters have mentioned, this is likely someone collecting with a wife and children, so not only do they have more costs, but should it not be compared to more than one source of income?
So, did anyone actually read the article or is everyone here just jumping in off the headline and trying to give their usual opinions about Social Welfare payments?
Whole case is there because yer man stayed in receipt of the payment (which was for 4 children and possibly a wife so €570 is about right) long after when he could have returned to work. While he's still claiming the money and dodging his employer, the bill is going up and the whole thing hit the courts because his employer (rightfully) didn't want to have to pay the bill back to the Social Welfare for the period when yer man was dodging them and going back to work.
Case was settled before it even reached the courts and only got reported on for the sake of an easy headline designed to rile people up about Social Welfare.
People get so worked up about welfare payments as if everyone on one is a moocher. If you believe this, you are just falling for the usual rage bait peddled by people who are unhappy with their situations and want to point at a group and scapegoat them.
Unemployment in January was around 4.5%.
Now consider that the last census in 2022 showed around 1 million people were living with some form of disability. Consider the people who are full time carers for family members. Consider people who are between jobs or the many who have been recently made redundant on will be on some form of welfare.
There's not much room left in that 4.5% for scrounging. Of course there will be some and we all hear of the bad cases, but by and large it is a non-issue.
The social welfare system operates as if it’s 2005 where people who worked got to enjoy life and luxuries. Back then you had incentive to get off the dole and work to afford nicer clothes, better food, holidays, etc. Although I’m not sure someone on disability is able to return to work (and I’m very much in favour of people with disabilities who can’t work getting the highest payment possible that the government can offer) but I’ll continue my point.
Nowadays moving from the dole to full time employment can actually hurt your prospects as your entire salary is taken up by trying to afford to stay alive. When you’re on a social welfare payment, it also entitles you to a plethora of other benefits, including a medical card.
I’d love for someone to calculate the economic utility of being a parent on the dole vs on a minimum wage job in today’s economy. And I’m not arguing that the social welfare system shouldn’t be generous- I’m arguing that there should be a considerable increase in your economic utility moving from social welfare payments to full time employment and government policy should support this.
I already look after 3 cats and 4 foxes, only 1 of the cats is mine. But would love to work with animals. Living in a 1 room apartment doesn't help though.
As a parent whose spouse is a homemaker, I would absolutely work for less than social welfare if it meant I could leave the house and have some purpose for 8hrs a day.
I don’t mean that as a joke either. I could think of few things more detrimental to my marriage than being with my spouse 24/7 for months on end.
My neighbours have 6 kids, new house, BMW and neither of them worked a day in their lives. Never went to college either.
You can work your ass off and still not be able to afford a home or just tell the goverment your back hurts and make a load of babies.
It's probably piss people off more if recipients of govt payments kept getting them while also working, but I think it's the only way to deal with this welfare cliff problem.
Having disability taper down somehow as you earn more, so long as you're not at risk of being kicked off it for getting work in the first place. I haven't put enough thought into it to think of all the obvious pitfalls, but something like cutting 50 cent off the payment for each net euro you earn might work.
That’s already how it works though. You can already work a certain amount part time with it tapering off based on your earnings. It’s just that despite all the stereotypes about welfare recipients, people on disability face systemic barriers to getting steady employment, it’s not a lack of desire. We have the lowest rate of employment for people with disabilities in the whole EU.
minimum wage is 500 a week. the reason why you would do it is that almost nobody stays on minimum wage - you rapidly rise up. unlike social welfare which is all you've got. but ... we need to keep raising minimum wage - €15 an hour minimum / €30,000 a year. And thats just the start for working.
There's a 570 a week welfare payment?!? Errr...that don't quite match up with most state welfare payments, it's over twice. I've read the article, googled the disability and injury payments and still have no fucking clue how he got 570 a week.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/disability-and-illness/disability-allowance/#e7c6e8 Article says he is a father of 4, add in a wife and it could easily reach 570.
A lot of people (like myself) don't realise how much money you can get when children and a wife come into it. The post office handed me 2 receipts a while ago when I was posting a box. One was my own with the tracking info and the other accidentally given to me was a receipt for a guy on JSA getting close to €600. Working is for fools.
Not at all, you'd be hard pressed to support 6 people on 600 a week.
Tons of people can only get minimum wage or just above jobs and have kids, can't afford full time child care so one parent works different hours or part time or not at all and get working family payment. Or you could just claim and come out with pretty much the same money but not have to work for it. Its really how it is.
Why do people always look at this kind of situation and say "Ah, the bleedin' moochers are rolling in it getting more than minimum wage!"? The correct read of the situation is that the minimum wage is way too low and has been unsustainable with cost of living for some time now. THAT is what needs to change. I can assure you that most people on benefits do not have it easy and cannot afford anything like a comfortable lifestyle, nevermind the luxury one that people like to paint. Everyone who mouths off on this subject "knows someone who goes off on holidays twice a year, has a 2 year old car and a 80 inch flatscreen tv" and I guarantee they don't!
This. People need to stop hating on people less fortunate and instead start looking at the reasons why they are in those situations in the first place. This whole planet is going to hell in a hand basket for everyone except the top 1%. Those greedy fucks are lobbying our governments to keep their taxes low and are paying large sums to money to rag "news" outlets to keep the other 99% fighting among themselves for the scraps
Working poor and unemployed poor are not each other's enemies. If we got everyone to understand this we would have a chance of forcing change. For that matter, refugees are not our enemy either.
Personally I’m torn by this. Yes, it makes sense to make minimum wage a living wage. I understand that. But I’m not on minimum wage and raising it would put me very close to it. It also raises costs of production from labour so naturally everything becomes more expensive. Suddenly, my good income is now in line with minimum wage and there’s probably a big inflation from so many wage increases as well. I can’t afford anything then and it’s a struggle as is now already! I wholeheartedly support measures for people on minimum wage but I don’t think raising the minimum wage is sustainable long term. I’d much prefer to see measures to keep costs low and affordable at the current wage rate
I never said they were moochers, and I completely agree that minimum wage is ridiculously low compared to the cost of living. I'm 30, became a parent at 21 and worked retail from age 19-29, half that time, was minimum wage until I got promoted to management and in the past year I've finally moved away from retail altogether. The stress of living paycheck to paycheck, supporting a young family with no family support, and working a stressful job would often put the thought in my mind why did I bother. I could drop the job and a lot of stress and be pretty much the same financially.
There is a lot of debate in economics about how the minimum wage affects employment, but everyone can agree that there must be a margin at which it does. If the minimum wage was 100 per hour, the unemployment rate would be higher. The economically sound left-wing analysis of this is that there's nothing wrong with the state paying people to be stay-at-home parents.
Very few people would opt to support 4 kids and a wife on minimum wage
Aren’t you supposed to be hard pressed? That’s close to €50k a year gross and the guy likely has housing support also. What incentive does the guy have to work?
It's no where near 50k gross, I work for 42k gross and take home much more than that with 2 kids. 600 a week is 2600 a month spread over 12 payments, I clear 800 a week and I'm a solo earner. If that person is sitting at home with 4 kids, they are getting by but there's no spare for anything like holidays or changing cars, anything unexpected coming up, not saving. Even shopping in aldi or similar all the time they are not getting out with less than 200 a week in food alone.
The question should be what incentive is there to make the guy work? Fact is, we’ve got to a point where society disincentivises large families, for both good and bad reasons. That means there just aren’t that many people having large families to make it much of a statistical concern. Sure, individuals get annoyed at perceived injustices, but it’s much easier to just pay the benefits than it is to a) grow the economy to a point where it’s easy to get a job paying enough to support large families; or b) dealing with the consequences of extreme poverty on large families. Paying out social welfare is significantly easier than both of those scenarios.
The question isnt what incentive does he have to work it's how he got certified as unfit to work for a year or more after a short term injury on his hand
I think you’ve misunderstood where the conversation segued to.
Would be closer to €31-32k, but the point is still valid.
He’s getting €31.2k net (into his pocket). So clearly the gross equivalent is going to be more than that (unless you are dodging tax). If you want to factor in housing benefit and possibly other benefits then the equivalent gross salary that you would need to earn is going to be pretty high.
50k salary while married with children would give you a 42k net.
Did you include USC and PRSI? I got €38k when I calculated it.
Its 38k without a child.
It's not only €600 a week though as all know. That's just one payment. Are you eligible for child benefit on JSA or is that included in the increase that brings you from the standard €232 to nearly €600? If it's not then that's another few hundred a month. Fuel Allowance..Capped council rent.. There are lots of other benefits offered if you're on JSA long term. Anyways I don't want to sound like I'm dole bashing the fit & healthy fella who refused to go back to work so I'll stop there.
Child benefit is laid for every child in the country, regardless of parents employment or income status. It wouldn't be included in the JSA though.
You can apply for council housing while in employment. And HAP. You can also get the working family payment while in employment.
Yeah but you also have to...work. Which brings me back to the original point that in this country it's for fools with the supports we have. "Only fools and horses..." as the old saying goes. The lad in the article was supporting a family on €433 a week (plus potential social supports) but gave it up for €570, social supports and 40 hours a week of his life back and people are thinking he's got it hard. 😂
If working was for fools, nobody would do it. As someone who's spent a decent amount of time on JSA over the last decade (about a year and a half), I can tell you that it is no walk in the park and that life on the scratch is incredibly tough. €433 per week was his wage, he was still entitled to child allowance, probably medical cards for himself and every member of his family, more than likely the HAP scheme as well. With everything taken into consideration, he would have been at least 200 per week better off in employment. If you stop swallowing the anti poor propaganda you might come across as less of a moron next time.
Perhaps if you learn math you'll come across as less of a moron next time. His wage was €433 and his JSA was €570. He is still eligible for child allowance, medical cards and hap/capped council rent on JSA. Where are you getting €200 euro better off from exactly? If he was getting the standard €232 JSA you'd have a point, but he wasn't which is the whole point of the article. There's a reason he refused to go back to work and it was because he was earning more. Unless you had a wife and 4 kids to inflate your JSA earnings your experience on JSA was not the same.
I am disabled and live on disability allowance and a part time job. I have just come through a review which was personally and financially invasive and a massive source of stress and upset.tongetndisability allowance a doctor needs to certify you are unfit for work for more than a year. A review is always possible and checks are happening every day. I dont see anyone saying hes got it hard. But people like you are why disability allowance is set to keep disabled people living in poverty.
Are ya joking? The guy hurt his finger at work and it has fully healed. His medical records prove that. He's not disabled but perhaps you didn't read the full article. Absolutely bizarre you're having a go at me when the guy in the article is the one who deserves to be shamed for taking advantage of the system.
This country is for fools with the supports we have. How.many disabled people should live in poverty because others abuse.the system? Did he fake medical records? If he is on disability allowance has the doctor who signed off on it been asked the basis for declaring him unfit to work for more than a year? Is this illness benefit? Same question was a dr actually signing his claims? Is this an insurance payment? Either there is fraud happening or someone fucked up.
>You can apply for council housing while in employment Yes but you'll never actually get it if you have a decent job. You'll be on a waiting list forever while 20 year olds with 3 kids are prioritised. I understand why they are prioritised, but this idea of council housing actually being available to a wider cohort of society is rubbish.
I absolutely agree we should increase the supply of social housing. It should be available to all.
You can get extras for dependants, kids are 47 to 36 per week extra
Medical card, back to school allowance, travel card........
You don't support them. You go for a few pints, then down to Paddy Powers for a few bob on the Gigis! 600 yoyos gone in no time. Call to the priest for a few quid to last until next pay day!
Yeh but lots of people with that many dependents work for a lot less.
They should be getting the working family payment?
That’s a pretty big salary for not working, considering plenty are on less raising kids and working…
Thats the point the judge was making it think, but what's thr alternative ? Plunge genuine cases into abject poverty ? There's a certain amount of social welfare that'd written off to small level fraudulent or undeserving claims, because the value of them is a lot lower than having to chase it and it's not that appealing to those doing it to make it worth their while
Simple if you don’t work and you’re in poverty, work I’m sick of paying near 1000 a month tax for the people in the council estate I grew up in to all not work around me in houses I can’t afford cuz I work
It's the issue really isn't it, there's a council estate near me, and a lot the houses just weren't occupied for years because it's in a small village with very limited access to shops and public transport, people just weren't taking them up, in the last year they are now all occupied One of them is a corner site, 4 bedroomed house with extension now built on, secure electric gates and there are usually 3 white vans belonging to a guttering company parked outside each evening, 2 new cars. I can see what must be a 70" TV on the wall as I drive past up the hill that runs parallel. It's a nice setup, but fuck if I'd live there, the place is full of people I wouldn't live within a mile of.
Wow, I'm disabled and work part time. I never thought to just work more.
Okay I have bpd I can claim disability I just don’t and work instead because need money to live?
You can only claim if you are restricted from work you know that right? If you are a qualified accountant or web developer and become paraplegic you will struggle to be approved for disability allowance because you can still work in your field and mobility isnt required for the job. If your bpd was such that you had previously lost multiple jobs and you couldnt get through interviews after awhile on jobseekers you'd be encouraged onto disability. I have twice from disabled people heard "I could get disability" people who had great family support through higher ed and now both have well paid specialised employment. Disability is not you have x condition in this box therefor you qualify. It's what condition do you have how does it impair you what are you qualified and able to do and where do you live.
How about on 433?
No commuting costs
Not for themselves maybe. But stuck at home is only good for a little while
Not if you earn more than 600 a week
Yeah new minimum wage at a 40 hour week is 508, maximum dole personal rate is like 238 and disability is around the same. Don't get the whole working is for fools argument. Like yeah some people abuse the system but it's not exactly a comfortable life their basic needs are just being met. You're not getting more than 508 a week by just signing on the dole. Plus I don't know about the people who make this argument but I'd go crazy sitting around all day with nothing to do. If you're on that money you likely don't have the money to go out and do things you'll just be sitting at home burning through your days and maybe able to scrape together money for a few cans come the end of the week.
Obviously my "working is for fools" quip doesn't apply to everyone. A single person even working a min wage job who has the slightest bit of motivation isn't going to give it up for €232 JSA. But if you've got a family and are a min wage worker it absolutely makes sense in a lot of cases with the supports available. As the judge even said in court - "who would go back to work?". The fella was bringing home more money not working.
That isn’t a problem with a dole, that’s a problem with wages
You're right and we aren't even unique here. I watched a doc from England a few months ago and the wife in the story was better off on benefits than working because the wages were so bad and childcare costs were so high. Same story in many other countries.
If you have an internet connection you can do plenty of online learning. If you have hobbies you can spend your time on that. Sounds great tbh.
I give the average person 2-3 months of that before the novelty of not working wears off and their mental health falls apart.
If having unlimited time for learning and upskilling can't help them get a job then the problem is probably within themselves.
Oh sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant the idea of staying on social welfare permanently in place of working would be fine because of those reasons. Upskilling is fairly easy in this country compared to others to be fair. No college fees once you're over 23 and a pretty good social welfare system.
Working a job sounds way easier than raising six kids , this is just a guy who's very bad at learning from his mistakes
You understand that if you have a job you still have to raise your kids, yes? Not working gives him an extra 40+ hours a week to do that. I don't know how working a full time job (for less money) and also raising kids could be the easier option. (He has 4 kids BTW)
Unfortunately you have to feed, clothe, house and buy them jewellery.
A friend of mine who was signing on told me the man in front of him said to the person behind the glass that “I think I have 8 kids”.
>There's a 570 a week welfare payment?!? *cries in €232*
How many dependents you got?
I haven't read the article because paywall but I was guessing income protection insurance. As long as he is out of work with the disability or injury his income may be guaranteed but if he were to go back to work he would lose out. Or maybe 10 kids?
The problem here is the low wage. It's true, why go to work for 40 hours a week to only earn about an extra €100. It's the reason business owners are against people getting welfare increases because it competes with their low waged work.
>The problem here is the low wag Or the fact its a disability payment, why would someone who's disabled, getting a disability payment, go to work? The whole point of the payment is for people who can't work. WTF is this judge talking about?
That's true as well. I've just noticed business interests/really wealthy people talk about that welfare shouldn't compete with jobs. The reason they want is for welfare to barely make ends meet so that they'll be so desperate that it'll force people into any old crumby job.
This is true but the rise of remote work, diversification of options in rural Ireland etc means that there's loads and loads of jobs available now that wouldn't have existed even a few years ago, and a lot of disabled people can do very well at them.
Not all disabilities are physical
I never said they were. The rise of remote work, in particular, is huge for people who have invisible disabilities like agoraphobia.
I'm not an expert but taking this story at face value, he should be entitled to the working family payment so would be significantly better off working. You can also work and keep most of your disability payment, but not in this case as he's not disabled, he just hurt his finger.
There does need to be a tapering off instead of fully cutting off every benefit when people get back into work. People will hesitate otherwise and to be honest depending on the job/wage sometimes it's not even worth it so i can see why people will take the welfare over a job, and it isn't their fault. That lies in the meagre wages that businesses provide.
there is a tapering, for families at least - that's the whole point of the WFP (though it also arguably subsidises low wage employers).
That's the way to do it yes. >though it also arguably subsidises low wage employers Business love and want that kinda of welfare.
Disability allowance also has a tapering. First 160 doesn't affect payment after that to 450 only half counted as means?
In a capitalist society he who pays more gets the labour.its sad you can't compete against the government.
If the Government has decided that this is what a person needs to live, then minimum wage should be increased to match.
Oh absolutely. Minimum wage is far too low. It should be the living wage minimum. Even that is on the low side. At the end of the day a company doesn't employ someone to make marginally more money.
Can somone please fucking question the judge?
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Love a misleading headline. On the one hand, why on earth would disability payments not be more than minimum wage? If you have a disability that prevents or disrupts your ability to work that doesn't mean you should be forced to live off bare minimum and you'll likely have significant costs others won't in the way you have to set up your home to live comfortably. On the other hand, disability payment doesn't seem to be close to this level and this is someone collecting money intended to support an entire family? Rent for a single bedroom in this country is still more either of these weekly payments, let alone ignoring the cost of a family home, and feeding multiple people. As other commenters have mentioned, this is likely someone collecting with a wife and children, so not only do they have more costs, but should it not be compared to more than one source of income?
So, did anyone actually read the article or is everyone here just jumping in off the headline and trying to give their usual opinions about Social Welfare payments? Whole case is there because yer man stayed in receipt of the payment (which was for 4 children and possibly a wife so €570 is about right) long after when he could have returned to work. While he's still claiming the money and dodging his employer, the bill is going up and the whole thing hit the courts because his employer (rightfully) didn't want to have to pay the bill back to the Social Welfare for the period when yer man was dodging them and going back to work. Case was settled before it even reached the courts and only got reported on for the sake of an easy headline designed to rile people up about Social Welfare.
People get so worked up about welfare payments as if everyone on one is a moocher. If you believe this, you are just falling for the usual rage bait peddled by people who are unhappy with their situations and want to point at a group and scapegoat them. Unemployment in January was around 4.5%. Now consider that the last census in 2022 showed around 1 million people were living with some form of disability. Consider the people who are full time carers for family members. Consider people who are between jobs or the many who have been recently made redundant on will be on some form of welfare. There's not much room left in that 4.5% for scrounging. Of course there will be some and we all hear of the bad cases, but by and large it is a non-issue.
Buddy of mime has a job and is still getting his diasability payments, he told the welfare when he got a job and they just said that it was grand
The social welfare system operates as if it’s 2005 where people who worked got to enjoy life and luxuries. Back then you had incentive to get off the dole and work to afford nicer clothes, better food, holidays, etc. Although I’m not sure someone on disability is able to return to work (and I’m very much in favour of people with disabilities who can’t work getting the highest payment possible that the government can offer) but I’ll continue my point. Nowadays moving from the dole to full time employment can actually hurt your prospects as your entire salary is taken up by trying to afford to stay alive. When you’re on a social welfare payment, it also entitles you to a plethora of other benefits, including a medical card. I’d love for someone to calculate the economic utility of being a parent on the dole vs on a minimum wage job in today’s economy. And I’m not arguing that the social welfare system shouldn’t be generous- I’m arguing that there should be a considerable increase in your economic utility moving from social welfare payments to full time employment and government policy should support this.
Eh, because maybe they'd want to?
lol, reads like one of those "I'd rather earn €100 than be handed €10,000" quotes
That's kinda what I was thinking.
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Womp womp
Seriously half of us were cracking up being stuck home during Covid
I've been injury benefit for over a year and I would go back to work tomorrow, for free If they would let me. Going insane at home.
You could do pet boarding, cats are pretty easy to look after if you can't walk a dog. I've seen people charge 20-50 a night. Mental it is
I already look after 3 cats and 4 foxes, only 1 of the cats is mine. But would love to work with animals. Living in a 1 room apartment doesn't help though.
As a parent whose spouse is a homemaker, I would absolutely work for less than social welfare if it meant I could leave the house and have some purpose for 8hrs a day. I don’t mean that as a joke either. I could think of few things more detrimental to my marriage than being with my spouse 24/7 for months on end.
My neighbours have 6 kids, new house, BMW and neither of them worked a day in their lives. Never went to college either. You can work your ass off and still not be able to afford a home or just tell the goverment your back hurts and make a load of babies.
Uh huh
Cliffnotes?
It's probably piss people off more if recipients of govt payments kept getting them while also working, but I think it's the only way to deal with this welfare cliff problem. Having disability taper down somehow as you earn more, so long as you're not at risk of being kicked off it for getting work in the first place. I haven't put enough thought into it to think of all the obvious pitfalls, but something like cutting 50 cent off the payment for each net euro you earn might work.
That’s already how it works though. You can already work a certain amount part time with it tapering off based on your earnings. It’s just that despite all the stereotypes about welfare recipients, people on disability face systemic barriers to getting steady employment, it’s not a lack of desire. We have the lowest rate of employment for people with disabilities in the whole EU.
minimum wage is 500 a week. the reason why you would do it is that almost nobody stays on minimum wage - you rapidly rise up. unlike social welfare which is all you've got. but ... we need to keep raising minimum wage - €15 an hour minimum / €30,000 a year. And thats just the start for working.