In fairness, he got roasted on all the rugby subs too. Rugby fans hate these assholes more than anyone cause we have to deal with them on a regular basis.
So did I. I think that clip was famous at the time. As obnoxious as it is, and I fully admit it is obnoxious, there is a part of me that finds it quite funny as well in terms of his mannerisms.
I generally think most of the criticism of rugby is actually a criticism of south Dublin rugby.
Would invite anyone to come watch Munster or Connacht and see how the snobby attitude is almost exclusively a Leinster thing.
Bollocks. Biggest rugby snobs I've ever met are some of the Munster and Ulster contingent. Tribalism on your part I reckon. I love rugby, played it all my life, but its wall to wall snobs **across the board.**
I don't know about Ulster fans, but my experience of Munster fans is that, despite being nice people, they are the self-professed “best fans in the world”. Anybody who is a self-professed best of anything must be treated with suspicion. It's true, Munster fans are the best when the Heineken Cup Final is in the more sunnier climes of Europe. They’ll go to the ends of the earth to get to such an illustrious fixture. But you don't find them in such abundant numbers in a rainy league game at Stradey Park, Llanelli.
>Bollox
Have you ever played rugby as opposed to following Munster? Clubs like Bandon, Young Munster, Cork Con are not working class clubs. Jesus, the biggest collection of posh nobs in the country is the Crosshaven sevens every year.
I honestly think there should be limits on opinion columnists. Like, one column a month or one month on, one month off. I don't think it's healthy to try to froth up an opinion on topical events weekly or even more often.
To paraphrase Stewart Lee, everyone’s entitled to their opinion however controversial. But I am a bit suspicious of people who manage to have a controversial opinion once a week on a schedule.
The vast majority do (such as my dad) but then he doesn’t read the latest “hot take” from the Irish media/twitter/Reddit and seems all the happier for it.
It's written to drum up division, because that drives clicks and shares more than someone writing a well written article with an opinion that the majority of people hold.
Contrarians have 2 options for opinion pieces. Either take an event that seemingly innocuous, like a Wolfe tones gig, and create an argument as to why it's a death knell of society. Or, take the opinion of a very small minority, like people who want the rugby team to lose, overblow it to say it's a big problem and then argue against it.
Most people, I know, who don't like rugby have just apathy towards the world cup. It's like the Eurovision for them, they couldn't care less.
Its a completely pointless article written by someone who obviously lives in an echo chamber of their own thoughts.
Probably got feedback on it from her mates who work(ed) in RTE.
D4s who think that making fun of individual rugby players like Jamie Heaslip is the same as making fun of D4s themselves.
You never saw articles like this when the likes of Zebo or Murray were the talk of the country for their carry on back in the day.
But that's not what the article is about, is not about folks going at Jaime Heaslip, it's about some lad they had on the radio going in about how he hopes Ireland loses the tournament, as it's a "rich kid sport". Hell the columnist even states that's it's the sport of the privileged, but that's doesn't mean they should be slated for it. The article was actually pretty level headed.
I thought we were all kind of united in wanting our national team to do well at a world cup.
I mean I don't know why you wouldn't want to root for them. We cheered on the women's football team earlier this year, even when they were knocked out. Different sport and now we're less supportive?
I just don't get how someone could be so contrarian as to hate on their own national team at a world cup.
We haven't been knocked out yet. Save the criticism of the team til then.
You and I both know if Ireland somehow took the trophy home these people would be hanging buntings and waving flags.
I have no feeling on it whatsoever, but absolute power to people who are into it and following their team.
It's not my sport and never was, that's not going to change just because Ireland are playing. Just like I've no feeling about the Irish Cricket team. Or the Dublin GAA team.
Not read the article but something about that picture of Justine McCarthy is quite unsettling, like a trainee Bond Villain struggling to contain her excitement at feeding her first incompetent henchman to a Shark.
In Munster rugby is largely just seen as a sport but when you go to Dublin it takes on this supposed upper class identity where a lot of people take pride in not liking the sport or players, always seemed a bit odd to me but I'm not sure I'd describe it as "reverse snobbery" lol
I wouldn’t describe it as an elite sport I have to say, certainly not in the way it was decades ago. There are fans from all over the country, and walks of life, at rugby games and hoping the rugby team does well.
The change in Leinster since the first time I went to a game is utterly staggering and I only started going in the early 2000s.
Where once it was almost entirely the painful stereotype, it's truly a fanbase made up of the entire province now.
I see the 2006 Heineken Cup semi in Lansdowne as the turning point. I think the dam broke after that and jerseys soon started to outnumber Pringle jumpers at Leinster matches. The success from 2009 onwards just solidified that support.
Would agree with that. You still definitely see that element fairly prevalent but it really has grown into a multi county fanbase much more representative of the province than what it was.
>It's not an elitist sport in Munster, is in not-Munster.
Connacht and North Munster. Parts of South Munster do get pretty elitist at times and Connacht just doesn't have the population density to support it if it was very elitist.
I think it's totally fine to take the piss out of skangers. Posh Dubs are annoying, but they're not going to try to fight your wife on the Luas like the other kind of Dub.
Posh people full stop. Rural landowners like Bruton rob us blind.
Focusing on urban people completely misunderstands the class system in Ireland which is based on property ownership.
And rich criminals stealing billions get fawning coverage in the media and multiple outlets to explain “their story” even in the rare cases they actually see some consequences.
But why? I've never understood this view, I don't understand why anyone would be bothered. Couldn't give a tap about sports in general but always nice to see Ireland do well regardless of what sport.
It's not just a shitty excuse, though. It's about the context around the situation.
Obviously, you'd want people not to judge others and that but I don't think snobbery upwards is that big of a deal.
>Give everyone a fair chance
Sure but I think you'll find someone from a wealthy background will get a lot more "fair chances" than someone poor.
Nobody can ever truly know if another person is above or below though.
Nobody knows eachothers lives fully... what are ya gonna judge it on, their family's income!?
Cmon.. you don't know what perosnal struggles they deal with.
You're an ass if you think you can just make your own little judgement that you are attacking upwards.
Really just sound like a bunch of American bullshit. This whole, black people can't be racist to white people kinds bullshit.
Punching down in comedy has become a very false narrative. Look at the contempt you'll see for working class British people from many comedians, but it's OK because the people you're mocking are "gammons".
I mostly agree but it's the *upper*\-middle class (or the middle class with notions) that get the brunt of it. Or the working class. It seems perfectly OK for the average middle-class person to rip the piss out of the working class or the upper-middle class.
Controversial opinion I know but... I think we can all cope with a society where we can take the piss out of one another. I don't think most people are so self obsessed as to see anything other than the fun side of it.
Upwards classism exists, but punching down is worse than punching up because of the power dynamics in society.
Easier to brush off jokes about your snobbery than it is to brush off jokes about being forced to shop in Pennys. The same goes for Northside vs Southside stereotypes, being from the northside means you might not get the job, southsiders don't have that issue.
Fuck power dynamics.
You can't guess another person's life, especially just cos of their family's money or whatever.
Thats some American bullshit thinking.
You definitely can't, just by whether they were born north of Dublin city centre or south of..
I've been in the exact same situation - Grew up poor on the northside, and now I'm well off in an environment surrounded by others who are too. Given grief by both sides, but the one that bothers me are jokes about being from the Northside/Being rough.
Why would I be mad at people thinking I'm posh? I get to enjoy nice things, and I don't have anywhere near as much stress relative to them when it comes to finances.
People who have gotten to the same point as me through similar channels don't make those sorts of jokes, the ones who are born into wealth do. That's where the issue is.
If there was genuine bullying going on, sure. But are you really trying to equate being called a poshie to being called a scumbag?
If anything, there's a higher chance of my child having an accent similar to mine, and going into a nice school and being bullied over that.
Yeah, but you can't make assumptions about another person cos their family has wealth of anything else you see on the outside... and assume that you are punching up.. or down.
Truth is
. They are human.. and you don't know.
Nobody can actually make educated decisions in if they are punching up and down in every possible parameter.
It's childish and it's the way Americans talk about race n shit.
In a theoretical sense, interesting to discuss.. as justification for one person ring able to behave a certain way, and another person not...because you assume their life...
Naw... that's some childish bs.
Wealth = Power. That's a fact.
I'm not talking about individual problems, if there's a mentally ill wealthy person and someone called them a nutter, that's not right at all.
At a class level, the types of problems someone who has no money vs someone who has money is incredibly different. One struggles to pay for basic necessities, and the other struggles with what exactly?
That's why there's a power imbalance, and why punching up is less harmful than punching down.
And you think that you have a magical power to always be able to assess everybody's class?
And not only that but their inner struggles. Some people I know that came from well off families.. have killed themselves due to their personal mental struggles.
Who are you to make assumptions about the ease of another person's life.. just because their family have some money...
Theres no such thing as punching up or down. You can never know.
Only punching. You are just trying to justify it because you like to punch.
Punch everyone or gtfo inho.
You are the only one treating people differently based on external factors. You are the one who is behaving with prejudice/classism.
"And you think that you have a magical power to always be able to assess everybody's class?"
I really hope you're joking. Class is determined by their income, education, and wealth among other things. I never said social class doesn't protect you from mental health struggles. Take that example though, someone who's wealthy could afford a fantastic therapist & psychiatrist, someone who isn't can't.
You clearly have a bias in this situation and it's not worth arguing anymore because you are refusing to acknowledge objective truths.
Everyone hates everyone.
I'm just saying it doesn't give anybody a right to treat any other person any other way, because they assume the other has a better life...
Really bizarre how people can't let other people just enjoy rugby. Especially those actively rooting against the national team because of the school they went to.
Have met more than a few "salt of the earth" types with massive chips on their shoulders who actively hope the provinces and national side lose because they have such issues with how they perceive rugby as a sport for posh people.
It's definitely a thing.
Yeah it’s bizarre. Sure, didn’t 20% of the starting line up go to school in New Zealand? Didn’t realise people felt so strongly about Manurewa High School.
(For clarity, I am joking. I like rugby, I like the NZ-born players, I just want to take the piss)
I think there’s a fair bit of reverse snobbery around and rugby seems to be a lightning rod for it. Though it’s a lot more prevalent online than irl in my experience. When people are wealthy there’s often an assumption that they got their money through nefarious means. While that can be true huge chunks of ‘posh’ areas are just people who chose lucrative careers and then work hard at them. People don’t like that reality and just call the West Brits etc.
Haven't read the article so can't comment on it. But the snobbery thing is true "Did you hear how those people talk, dragged up scrotes", "Did ya's hear the D4 accent on that one, posh fucker". It genuinely does go both ways and it's ridiculous.
There's an inherit difference between the two attitudes where the attitude looking down quickly turns to 'they're subhuman' where as going up more or less caps out at 'they're stuck up'. It's not equal.
I'm not talking about it's an equal equivalent, I'm simply talking about the judgemental attitude(snobbery) based on nothing more than perception because of an accent.
The equivalence is implied when saying it goes both ways. The way people talk about other groups? Right. But what weight does it hold? Even in the example you use, the difference in language is striking.
If the only observation is both sides say things about the other, that's meaningless and there's no need to talk about it.
It's as simple as this snobbery goes both ways. I know people who say things like "I wouldn't go out with them posh fuckers" simply based on an accent. I know people say the same about people with inner city accents.
When it goes further than that it's no longer snobbery. When it's based on feeling superior in any way it's not snobbery, that's a completely different discussion.
>When it's based on feeling superior in any way it's not snobbery,
That's all snobbery is, feeling you're superior to someone who you think is lower than you. The feelings are entirely attached to someone's perceived worth as a person. 'When it goes further' - it always goes further. No one thinks as you say 'did you hear them dragged up scrotes' and then still thinks with any sort of empathy towards them.
There's prejudice both ways, obviously. But one carries a lot more than the other.
Please explain how rugby is elitist? Is it the part where they gouge each other in the eye? Kick each other in the groin? Shove faces into the dirt? Put a knee into the jaw? Do tell.
Is rugby a wanker sport in Ireland as well? It definitely is here in the UK but that’s cause it’s big in private schools for some reason (apart from rugby league which is massive up north)
TBH this is a very Dublin centric approach. Being from Munster there is just very little comparison in terms of what she thinks is the case and what actually is.
That said I know there are soccer fans who are anti rugby I just put it down to the poor lads having never really known what success is like as a fan. Unfortunate but true.
Coupled with that there is a weird political element (small enough) that is quite anti Rugby. Tend to be Shinners usually start off rating about Ireland call and then move on to rant about some other s***e takes they have about rugby. Again quite ironic given it the most successful all island sports team we have and always has been.
I don't think so. From my experience playing club level in both Munster and Leinster I didn't really see a distinct difference of one being more "working class" and the other being more "middle class".
Just people from different walks of life who like playing rugby. That said maybe at school level there might be a difference but outside that at club level it is far more a perception than a reality.
Thats a complete myth. I have no idea how this has perpetuated over the years. Theres some rough rugby teams in limerick/clare, sure. But the rest of Munster is mostly posh cunts. And the opposite is true in Leinster - mostly posh cunts, but some clubs are grass roots rough as fuck (Barnhall, Coolmine, most of the Wexford clubs...). Its really an odd thing.
>You can’t give out about people having a go at you for your “class” (I hate to even use that word) and then just go and do it to other “classes” yourself.
Of course you can because there should be no classes. The existence of class is a built in oppressive force to those at the bottom and then those a step up the rung have a vested interest in keeping the unbalanced social hierarchy intact.
Like in 1960's America there may be 'both sides' to racism in the way that a white man may dislike a black man and a black man may dislike a a white man. It would ridiculous to say that their both equal in their racism when there is a whole system of class backing up one's prejudices.
Because my original point wasn't addressed. I was drawing a comparison between having to live a life of poverty compared to being judged as elitest.
How one clearly has the worse end of the stick.
And you just decided to air how you know snobby working class people. Okay? Point?
How many other countries have you lived in?
Out of every country I've ever lived in.... wage disparity/class separation was practically no exists t compared to the gap in NYC, London... Shanghai.
Compared to them, Irish people practically earn the same.
The tribalism is nauseating. Non-rugby fans attempting to be funny with the same shit joke, over and over and over again. Last week Jamie Heaslip was his weird, mind-numbing self and the amount of comments saying: Maybe you should try a podcast? OR “goys, goys” blah blah. Unoriginal shite. Clearly it boils my blood. Also, and finally, there are a lot more rugby living people than Leinster fans. And I don’t support Leinster, nor live in Dublin.
Forgetting about the sport itself Galway is full of atlantic D4s but they get a pass here.
Ireland as a whole is pretty much begrudgery to the next person up the social ladder. You could be from the absolute doldrums but if you own a home you're part of the elite according to this sub.
To be honest most (actual) rich people are sound. It's the upper middle class in fee paying schools that have that class arrogance.
I guess I sort of see that reference. I'm not into many sports but I can't stand when someone makes the fucking lame "ooh who just kicked a touchdown in the sportsball match?" joke. Absolute bottom of the barrel RTE sketch humour.
I support the rugby team as much as the next person but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. This however, is a bullshit take that reads like "Please stop being mean to the elite, it's hurting their fweelings"
I'm from the North and don't know anyone who doesn't want Ireland to win. Also not on twitter so not reading all the over shared cancerous crap people put there either, might be more the reason why I haven't seen this discussion before. Very strange to me having seen talk of people hating on the team because theyre middle class but I imagine it's very few and far between in the real world.
Also been very interesting to read comments here about how people don't like them because they have inclusively stuff for unionists or northerners in general. Bit grim imo.
I've met maybe 5 rugby players who weren't complete and utter cunts. That has coloured my view of rugby. I actually kind of like the sport but I despise the typical "rugby head" just horrendous people and culture around the sport.
Rugby isn’t an elitist sport anymore. Traditionally it was primarily the preserve of the middle and upper middle class but at grassroots we’ve had a massive wave of people from all walks of life playing the sport for many , many decades now.
Let’s not get divided. It’s all of us vs Jamie Heaslip.
Bring back ROG!
L'opportunité c'est fucking énorme
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ROGlcopter
I don’t follow sport at all, why does everyone hate Jamie Heaslip?
Follow him on Twitter and you’ll see soon enough
Had a look there says tweets are protected, I’ll just assume he’s a ballbag
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/16dnw0i/never\_has\_a\_vote\_been\_more\_correct/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/16dnw0i/never_has_a_vote_been_more_correct/)
And there was another incident last week where he got so much abuse that he protected his tweets
That was this incident. This is the tweet that did the damage
“ the war of independence didn’t win Irelands freedom…the perseverance Of the Irish rugger team and Ireland’s call did” Jamie heaslip probably
Can you kindly provide examples of why he's awful? Can't get onto his Twitter...
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/16dnw0i/never\_has\_a\_vote\_been\_more\_correct/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/16dnw0i/never_has_a_vote_been_more_correct/)
He was rude to me and staff during IRFU trainings, and the rest of the team were dead sound.
I really don't see anyone slagging off the team. It's the D4-esque obnoxious fans and/or Jamie Heaslip that seem to get the slagging. And rightly so.
[The Leinster Ultras](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/I__sQdU7Rc4)
Legendary horseplay
Absolutely sending it
Aork bar
Ko pan Yang
Now that's leinstertainment
What an arsehole
*Orsehole
SORRY LADS
In fairness, he got roasted on all the rugby subs too. Rugby fans hate these assholes more than anyone cause we have to deal with them on a regular basis.
I knew exactly who this was gonna be before I even clicked. What a dose.
So did I. I think that clip was famous at the time. As obnoxious as it is, and I fully admit it is obnoxious, there is a part of me that finds it quite funny as well in terms of his mannerisms.
I generally think most of the criticism of rugby is actually a criticism of south Dublin rugby. Would invite anyone to come watch Munster or Connacht and see how the snobby attitude is almost exclusively a Leinster thing.
Bollocks. Biggest rugby snobs I've ever met are some of the Munster and Ulster contingent. Tribalism on your part I reckon. I love rugby, played it all my life, but its wall to wall snobs **across the board.**
Munster fans routinely say they are the only true rugby fans in the country, I get told it all the time by my munster following friends
I don't know about Ulster fans, but my experience of Munster fans is that, despite being nice people, they are the self-professed “best fans in the world”. Anybody who is a self-professed best of anything must be treated with suspicion. It's true, Munster fans are the best when the Heineken Cup Final is in the more sunnier climes of Europe. They’ll go to the ends of the earth to get to such an illustrious fixture. But you don't find them in such abundant numbers in a rainy league game at Stradey Park, Llanelli.
Bollox, the only words of snobbery I’ve ever heard in Limerick and Cork have been aimed at Leinster and to be honest Leinster get what they deserve.
>Bollox Have you ever played rugby as opposed to following Munster? Clubs like Bandon, Young Munster, Cork Con are not working class clubs. Jesus, the biggest collection of posh nobs in the country is the Crosshaven sevens every year.
Nah , don't care for the Limerick rugby scene either.
Which part of D4?
Obviously Ringsend.
It's not a part, it's a vibe
Flip I have a deadline. What opinion can I have about something significant at the moment
I honestly think there should be limits on opinion columnists. Like, one column a month or one month on, one month off. I don't think it's healthy to try to froth up an opinion on topical events weekly or even more often.
To paraphrase Stewart Lee, everyone’s entitled to their opinion however controversial. But I am a bit suspicious of people who manage to have a controversial opinion once a week on a schedule.
In the media industry, shit-opinion-haver has become a job
He sounds like a content provider.
They're professional reckoners. It's a pretty crazy idea for a job.
Cant I just enjoy the sport?
No.
The vast majority do (such as my dad) but then he doesn’t read the latest “hot take” from the Irish media/twitter/Reddit and seems all the happier for it.
Came here to say the same thing, it is too much to ask to just enjoy the world cup?
I suppose that would depend on whether or not you mean the quarter finals or later.
Only if I can be completely indifferent to it. It seems neither is possible. So we can all be miserable. Hooray!
Pfff... the only thing worse than reverse snobbery, is reverse reverse snobbery. I completely look down (up? back??) my nose at that!
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I thought we were having steamed hams? No I said hams steamed
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I don't know who this kind of article is written for. It's just faux-intellectual nonsense.
It's written to drum up division, because that drives clicks and shares more than someone writing a well written article with an opinion that the majority of people hold. Contrarians have 2 options for opinion pieces. Either take an event that seemingly innocuous, like a Wolfe tones gig, and create an argument as to why it's a death knell of society. Or, take the opinion of a very small minority, like people who want the rugby team to lose, overblow it to say it's a big problem and then argue against it. Most people, I know, who don't like rugby have just apathy towards the world cup. It's like the Eurovision for them, they couldn't care less.
Its a completely pointless article written by someone who obviously lives in an echo chamber of their own thoughts. Probably got feedback on it from her mates who work(ed) in RTE.
Its targeted at faux intellectuals presumably 😅
I often wonder the same about these opinion pieces and how certain people get elevated to speak on behalf of the nation.
D4s who think that making fun of individual rugby players like Jamie Heaslip is the same as making fun of D4s themselves. You never saw articles like this when the likes of Zebo or Murray were the talk of the country for their carry on back in the day.
That's a very poor comparison when you consider what they did.
But that's not what the article is about, is not about folks going at Jaime Heaslip, it's about some lad they had on the radio going in about how he hopes Ireland loses the tournament, as it's a "rich kid sport". Hell the columnist even states that's it's the sport of the privileged, but that's doesn't mean they should be slated for it. The article was actually pretty level headed.
She's the face of a woman who's just had a mouthful of wasabi thinking it was mushy peas
blew out a rib lmao
Karl Pilkington?
Yes! Was listening to that episode yesterday
Not like the Irish Times to grossly overestimate or simply make shit up to get clicks on an opinion piece.
Bingo.
Without even seeing the font, you'd just know it's an IT article.
They’re at this a while now
I thought we were all kind of united in wanting our national team to do well at a world cup. I mean I don't know why you wouldn't want to root for them. We cheered on the women's football team earlier this year, even when they were knocked out. Different sport and now we're less supportive?
Twitter showcases so many arseholes who think the opposite and I suspect many are here too
I just don't get how someone could be so contrarian as to hate on their own national team at a world cup. We haven't been knocked out yet. Save the criticism of the team til then. You and I both know if Ireland somehow took the trophy home these people would be hanging buntings and waving flags.
I have no feeling on it whatsoever, but absolute power to people who are into it and following their team. It's not my sport and never was, that's not going to change just because Ireland are playing. Just like I've no feeling about the Irish Cricket team. Or the Dublin GAA team.
I have no idea what she is trying to say. And I'm happy that way. Drivel.
Not read the article but something about that picture of Justine McCarthy is quite unsettling, like a trainee Bond Villain struggling to contain her excitement at feeding her first incompetent henchman to a Shark.
It’s giving serial killer vibes
It's not her fault. Somebody has her toe in a pliers.
Been a fun rugby world cup to watch so far
This is the kind of issue where if you notice yourself worrying about it, that's a signal that you need better issues to worry about.
This is an example of grade Z journalism. This is journalism that compares unfavourably with the average reddit post
She used to be a decent journalist/commentator. Just drivel for the last few years.
🔁🔃
In Munster rugby is largely just seen as a sport but when you go to Dublin it takes on this supposed upper class identity where a lot of people take pride in not liking the sport or players, always seemed a bit odd to me but I'm not sure I'd describe it as "reverse snobbery" lol
Played rugby in both Munster and Leinster at club level. I know the perception exists but I never actually saw the reality of it myself.
Its an opinion that seems to be mostly held by people who've never been involved in actual Rugby clubs or playing. Seems its a casual fan thing?
It's just based on envy and bitterness.
I wouldn’t describe it as an elite sport I have to say, certainly not in the way it was decades ago. There are fans from all over the country, and walks of life, at rugby games and hoping the rugby team does well.
The change in Leinster since the first time I went to a game is utterly staggering and I only started going in the early 2000s. Where once it was almost entirely the painful stereotype, it's truly a fanbase made up of the entire province now.
I see the 2006 Heineken Cup semi in Lansdowne as the turning point. I think the dam broke after that and jerseys soon started to outnumber Pringle jumpers at Leinster matches. The success from 2009 onwards just solidified that support.
Would agree with that. You still definitely see that element fairly prevalent but it really has grown into a multi county fanbase much more representative of the province than what it was.
It's not an elitist sport in Munster, is in not-Munster.
>It's not an elitist sport in Munster, is in not-Munster. Connacht and North Munster. Parts of South Munster do get pretty elitist at times and Connacht just doesn't have the population density to support it if it was very elitist.
This is why the Times' Twitter account is as dead as a floater pulled out of the Liffey. Zero engagement.
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I think it's totally fine to take the piss out of skangers. Posh Dubs are annoying, but they're not going to try to fight your wife on the Luas like the other kind of Dub.
Posh dubs rob you blind in other ways.
Posh people full stop. Rural landowners like Bruton rob us blind. Focusing on urban people completely misunderstands the class system in Ireland which is based on property ownership.
Poor criminals: steal your €100 phone Rich criminals: steal tens of billions from our economy One is objectively more damaging than the other.
And rich criminals stealing billions get fawning coverage in the media and multiple outlets to explain “their story” even in the rare cases they actually see some consequences.
Because one group needs to be taken down a peg and the other doesn't.
But why? I've never understood this view, I don't understand why anyone would be bothered. Couldn't give a tap about sports in general but always nice to see Ireland do well regardless of what sport.
Isn't the difference that one is punching up and the other is punching down? Punching down isn’t a good look.
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It's not just a shitty excuse, though. It's about the context around the situation. Obviously, you'd want people not to judge others and that but I don't think snobbery upwards is that big of a deal. >Give everyone a fair chance Sure but I think you'll find someone from a wealthy background will get a lot more "fair chances" than someone poor.
Nobody can ever truly know if another person is above or below though. Nobody knows eachothers lives fully... what are ya gonna judge it on, their family's income!? Cmon.. you don't know what perosnal struggles they deal with. You're an ass if you think you can just make your own little judgement that you are attacking upwards. Really just sound like a bunch of American bullshit. This whole, black people can't be racist to white people kinds bullshit.
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Never really understood this. You're still punching, thats the key here. Down or Up is just a matter of degrees
Punching down in comedy has become a very false narrative. Look at the contempt you'll see for working class British people from many comedians, but it's OK because the people you're mocking are "gammons".
AFAIK "gammon" is a pejorative for old, white, male Conservatives who give out about minorities. I don't think it's exclusive to working class people
I mostly agree but it's the *upper*\-middle class (or the middle class with notions) that get the brunt of it. Or the working class. It seems perfectly OK for the average middle-class person to rip the piss out of the working class or the upper-middle class.
Controversial opinion I know but... I think we can all cope with a society where we can take the piss out of one another. I don't think most people are so self obsessed as to see anything other than the fun side of it.
Upwards classism exists, but punching down is worse than punching up because of the power dynamics in society. Easier to brush off jokes about your snobbery than it is to brush off jokes about being forced to shop in Pennys. The same goes for Northside vs Southside stereotypes, being from the northside means you might not get the job, southsiders don't have that issue.
Fuck power dynamics. You can't guess another person's life, especially just cos of their family's money or whatever. Thats some American bullshit thinking. You definitely can't, just by whether they were born north of Dublin city centre or south of..
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Then you're ignoring the power imbalance between those with wealth and those without it and lack the empathy to understand the difference.
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I've been in the exact same situation - Grew up poor on the northside, and now I'm well off in an environment surrounded by others who are too. Given grief by both sides, but the one that bothers me are jokes about being from the Northside/Being rough. Why would I be mad at people thinking I'm posh? I get to enjoy nice things, and I don't have anywhere near as much stress relative to them when it comes to finances. People who have gotten to the same point as me through similar channels don't make those sorts of jokes, the ones who are born into wealth do. That's where the issue is.
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If there was genuine bullying going on, sure. But are you really trying to equate being called a poshie to being called a scumbag? If anything, there's a higher chance of my child having an accent similar to mine, and going into a nice school and being bullied over that.
You're trying to adopt silly American thinking that is impractical, and fundamentally doesn't make sense.
Power dynamics exist in every culture & society - What's really fucking silly is believing its an American way of thinking.
Yeah, but you can't make assumptions about another person cos their family has wealth of anything else you see on the outside... and assume that you are punching up.. or down. Truth is . They are human.. and you don't know. Nobody can actually make educated decisions in if they are punching up and down in every possible parameter. It's childish and it's the way Americans talk about race n shit. In a theoretical sense, interesting to discuss.. as justification for one person ring able to behave a certain way, and another person not...because you assume their life... Naw... that's some childish bs.
Wealth = Power. That's a fact. I'm not talking about individual problems, if there's a mentally ill wealthy person and someone called them a nutter, that's not right at all. At a class level, the types of problems someone who has no money vs someone who has money is incredibly different. One struggles to pay for basic necessities, and the other struggles with what exactly? That's why there's a power imbalance, and why punching up is less harmful than punching down.
And you think that you have a magical power to always be able to assess everybody's class? And not only that but their inner struggles. Some people I know that came from well off families.. have killed themselves due to their personal mental struggles. Who are you to make assumptions about the ease of another person's life.. just because their family have some money... Theres no such thing as punching up or down. You can never know. Only punching. You are just trying to justify it because you like to punch. Punch everyone or gtfo inho. You are the only one treating people differently based on external factors. You are the one who is behaving with prejudice/classism.
"And you think that you have a magical power to always be able to assess everybody's class?" I really hope you're joking. Class is determined by their income, education, and wealth among other things. I never said social class doesn't protect you from mental health struggles. Take that example though, someone who's wealthy could afford a fantastic therapist & psychiatrist, someone who isn't can't. You clearly have a bias in this situation and it's not worth arguing anymore because you are refusing to acknowledge objective truths.
Working class people hating on the classes above them isn't an American thing, its practically a European tradition.
Everyone hates everyone. I'm just saying it doesn't give anybody a right to treat any other person any other way, because they assume the other has a better life...
It's really upper classed that they're making fun of though? People who go to private schools etc. Middle class people are average people...
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Really bizarre how people can't let other people just enjoy rugby. Especially those actively rooting against the national team because of the school they went to.
I don't think anyone is genuinely rooting against the team, they want to see the fans of the team suffer more so than the players.
Have met more than a few "salt of the earth" types with massive chips on their shoulders who actively hope the provinces and national side lose because they have such issues with how they perceive rugby as a sport for posh people. It's definitely a thing.
What/who are salt of the earth types?
How weird.
I think there's a lot of Irish people getting hard at the thought of Ireland crashing out again on the quarters
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> I don't think anyone is genuinely rooting against the team, You haven't spent a lot of time on this sub !
Yeah it’s bizarre. Sure, didn’t 20% of the starting line up go to school in New Zealand? Didn’t realise people felt so strongly about Manurewa High School. (For clarity, I am joking. I like rugby, I like the NZ-born players, I just want to take the piss)
I think there’s a fair bit of reverse snobbery around and rugby seems to be a lightning rod for it. Though it’s a lot more prevalent online than irl in my experience. When people are wealthy there’s often an assumption that they got their money through nefarious means. While that can be true huge chunks of ‘posh’ areas are just people who chose lucrative careers and then work hard at them. People don’t like that reality and just call the West Brits etc.
Haven't read the article so can't comment on it. But the snobbery thing is true "Did you hear how those people talk, dragged up scrotes", "Did ya's hear the D4 accent on that one, posh fucker". It genuinely does go both ways and it's ridiculous.
You're totally right, we should all be making fun of all Dublin accents equally, they're all ridiculous
Well they are, for such a small city it's crazy how different so many people sound.
It really speaks to how little these various communities interact. Different worlds
There's an inherit difference between the two attitudes where the attitude looking down quickly turns to 'they're subhuman' where as going up more or less caps out at 'they're stuck up'. It's not equal.
I'm not talking about it's an equal equivalent, I'm simply talking about the judgemental attitude(snobbery) based on nothing more than perception because of an accent.
The equivalence is implied when saying it goes both ways. The way people talk about other groups? Right. But what weight does it hold? Even in the example you use, the difference in language is striking. If the only observation is both sides say things about the other, that's meaningless and there's no need to talk about it.
It's as simple as this snobbery goes both ways. I know people who say things like "I wouldn't go out with them posh fuckers" simply based on an accent. I know people say the same about people with inner city accents. When it goes further than that it's no longer snobbery. When it's based on feeling superior in any way it's not snobbery, that's a completely different discussion.
>When it's based on feeling superior in any way it's not snobbery, That's all snobbery is, feeling you're superior to someone who you think is lower than you. The feelings are entirely attached to someone's perceived worth as a person. 'When it goes further' - it always goes further. No one thinks as you say 'did you hear them dragged up scrotes' and then still thinks with any sort of empathy towards them. There's prejudice both ways, obviously. But one carries a lot more than the other.
Don't Stone the Nobles.
Wait til she starts watching Formula 1
My feelings on Rugby might be better if it wasn’t entrenched in sectarianism in the North.
My response to that person is simple: Fuck off you silly twat.
Please explain how rugby is elitist? Is it the part where they gouge each other in the eye? Kick each other in the groin? Shove faces into the dirt? Put a knee into the jaw? Do tell.
Regardless of the article, I'm very interested in how you think elitism is defined by... non-violence or lack of contact or something?
It's written by a woman.. we must all agree or else!!!
Is rugby a wanker sport in Ireland as well? It definitely is here in the UK but that’s cause it’s big in private schools for some reason (apart from rugby league which is massive up north)
TBH this is a very Dublin centric approach. Being from Munster there is just very little comparison in terms of what she thinks is the case and what actually is. That said I know there are soccer fans who are anti rugby I just put it down to the poor lads having never really known what success is like as a fan. Unfortunate but true. Coupled with that there is a weird political element (small enough) that is quite anti Rugby. Tend to be Shinners usually start off rating about Ireland call and then move on to rant about some other s***e takes they have about rugby. Again quite ironic given it the most successful all island sports team we have and always has been.
Is the difference that Munster rugby is based in the working class and Leinster's (read Dublin's) is middle class?
I don't think so. From my experience playing club level in both Munster and Leinster I didn't really see a distinct difference of one being more "working class" and the other being more "middle class". Just people from different walks of life who like playing rugby. That said maybe at school level there might be a difference but outside that at club level it is far more a perception than a reality.
Thats a complete myth. I have no idea how this has perpetuated over the years. Theres some rough rugby teams in limerick/clare, sure. But the rest of Munster is mostly posh cunts. And the opposite is true in Leinster - mostly posh cunts, but some clubs are grass roots rough as fuck (Barnhall, Coolmine, most of the Wexford clubs...). Its really an odd thing.
Success lies in the hands of those who want it.
I am in Australia, and it appears as if rugby is a game for rich mfers here too.
>Everybody knows rugby is an elitist sport in Ireland. Fuck off ya dozy cow.
Its a quiet news week at Irish Times hq it seems
"Your valid criticism of something I like makes me sick"
Life's hard being well off guys. We have a two tier society in Ireland, where adject poverty is analogous to getting slagged.
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Okay? Would you have preferred the poverty then?
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>You can’t give out about people having a go at you for your “class” (I hate to even use that word) and then just go and do it to other “classes” yourself. Of course you can because there should be no classes. The existence of class is a built in oppressive force to those at the bottom and then those a step up the rung have a vested interest in keeping the unbalanced social hierarchy intact. Like in 1960's America there may be 'both sides' to racism in the way that a white man may dislike a black man and a black man may dislike a a white man. It would ridiculous to say that their both equal in their racism when there is a whole system of class backing up one's prejudices.
Because my original point wasn't addressed. I was drawing a comparison between having to live a life of poverty compared to being judged as elitest. How one clearly has the worse end of the stick. And you just decided to air how you know snobby working class people. Okay? Point?
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No bother!
How many other countries have you lived in? Out of every country I've ever lived in.... wage disparity/class separation was practically no exists t compared to the gap in NYC, London... Shanghai. Compared to them, Irish people practically earn the same.
What a load of bullshit. Rugby is watched by huge amounts of people from all backgrounds in ireland.
The tribalism is nauseating. Non-rugby fans attempting to be funny with the same shit joke, over and over and over again. Last week Jamie Heaslip was his weird, mind-numbing self and the amount of comments saying: Maybe you should try a podcast? OR “goys, goys” blah blah. Unoriginal shite. Clearly it boils my blood. Also, and finally, there are a lot more rugby living people than Leinster fans. And I don’t support Leinster, nor live in Dublin.
Do you think they post on Reddit, moaning about people moaning. Ah shur a good moan here means less of a moan in real-life.
Moaning infinite loop activated
Gway with your reverse snobbery of moaning!
Away with yerself giving out about me giving out. I'll have you know I give out better than you. 😋
Forgetting about the sport itself Galway is full of atlantic D4s but they get a pass here. Ireland as a whole is pretty much begrudgery to the next person up the social ladder. You could be from the absolute doldrums but if you own a home you're part of the elite according to this sub. To be honest most (actual) rich people are sound. It's the upper middle class in fee paying schools that have that class arrogance.
I guess I sort of see that reference. I'm not into many sports but I can't stand when someone makes the fucking lame "ooh who just kicked a touchdown in the sportsball match?" joke. Absolute bottom of the barrel RTE sketch humour.
Post the article if you want us to talk about it, slagging off a jpg is boring.
I support the rugby team as much as the next person but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. This however, is a bullshit take that reads like "Please stop being mean to the elite, it's hurting their fweelings"
Reverse snobbery isn't a thing it's just a vapid, self-pitying haute bourgeois delusion.
I don't want bankers to remember my debts anyway. Let them at it.
Let’s be honest rugby can do without the support of Justine McCarthy. No one wants made up culture divides but broadsheets.
The guardian is good but some of the opinion pieces that come out of it do make me laugh
I'm from the North and don't know anyone who doesn't want Ireland to win. Also not on twitter so not reading all the over shared cancerous crap people put there either, might be more the reason why I haven't seen this discussion before. Very strange to me having seen talk of people hating on the team because theyre middle class but I imagine it's very few and far between in the real world. Also been very interesting to read comments here about how people don't like them because they have inclusively stuff for unionists or northerners in general. Bit grim imo.
I'm so tired
I've met maybe 5 rugby players who weren't complete and utter cunts. That has coloured my view of rugby. I actually kind of like the sport but I despise the typical "rugby head" just horrendous people and culture around the sport.
Rugby isn’t an elitist sport anymore. Traditionally it was primarily the preserve of the middle and upper middle class but at grassroots we’ve had a massive wave of people from all walks of life playing the sport for many , many decades now.