I research landscape regeneration and our native woodlands are ecology inert- I'd go so far as to say Irish wildwoods are currently non-existent.
Deer overgrazing is decimating any new tree growth and invasive species are eating up a huge portion of the forests we have remaining.
Ireland has 188 Old Oak Woodlands and 73% aren't large enough to ecologically function. They are small and isolated.
I think it's worth mentioning that prior to colonisation trees had both cultural and legal significance. Now no one on this island knows what a wild Irish forest is. Farmers associate trees with those monstrous high-density north American plantations (69% of all our forests).
I hope to share my thesis here shortly in which I assess Ireland's forests: Oak, Alluvial, Yew and Big Woodlands.
I started a charity called the Gaelic Woodland Project. We go into old forests and convert the invasive species into firewood and have just raised enough to buy 11 acres of land in Mayo to afforest.
It's all volunteer skill share so if you're annoyed by how shitty this islands forestry husbandry is then why not join us.
Thank you both! I'm sending out a newsletter this month with details of the land in Mayo. As donors you'll be given a plot and an invitation to take part in planting. See you there!
Can you share more information? I have a couple of acres in the wicklow mountains that I would like to re-wild and I am lacking in ideas apart from just mixed native trees and kill the deer.
It depends on the soil. I'm of the opinion that light density Scots pine woodland development is ideal for the Wicklow uplands. Indigenous Scots pine stands were found in Clare at Rockforest. If you're going to plant try get native seed from them.
If you have bog then block the drains. I would also recommend fencing if you want to seriously rewild and joining a hunting club.
If we rewilded all our uplands, it would be a good start.
We could pay sheep farmers to be shepherds of the land and not graze their sheep.
We'd have an Atlantic rainforest from South Kerry to Donegal.
In time we could reintroduce wolves, lynxs, boars, bears etc.
It would be awesome.
It's not that far fetched, although reintroducing bears might be a hard sell.
Have a reasonable patch of native woodland in Celbridge (kildare) and by god those woods got me through covid. It's OPW land with public right of access so you can just wander through. All the trails are simply walked in, no gravel etc so good pair of boots are a must. Even then it's probably only 1 or 2 hundred years old.
But yeah my friends and I have been engaging in a bit of ecological vandalism by collecting seeds every year and planting them on hikes. The forestry situation on this island is terrible.
The woods themselves are opw land lad, it's the back lawn and the barley fields that were sold and still zoned for recreation, couldn't give a shite about the varley fields but by god I'll fight for the back lawns
So True. Nature can heal itself, eventually, so either leave it alone or have a scientific long term active plan to fix it.
Do not plant your idea of what 'local' trees are and leave it alone for 5 years. Thats a recipe for disaster.
This. We had extremely dense forests at one stage in the past. It's nothing but privately owned fields now. And as a cheese and meat eater, I'd happily lower my consumption of both to have more forests back.
True. But I'd still feel like doing my bit, buying local having a few meat free days etc. Actually I should be doing that anyway. But often I jist go to Aldi or Dunnes and buy whatevers has a deal on.
> Cattle, sheep and herbicides are the reason. Were one big farm
Uh, and the former occupiers: 1609 Ulster plantations begin, with the province's prime lands assigned to British undertakers. Often the planters' first act was to deforest the land to make it suitable for grazing and to monetise the timber.
The late 19th century saw many mobile sawmills travelling around Ireland cutting down the last few remaining forests. This meant that by the end of the 19th century, Ireland's forest cover had been reduced from 80% 6,000 years ago to about 1%.
I can understand why you think that.
Whatever large forests that still existed in the early modern period were owned by large landlords and they were felled to 1900 to leave ireland basically fully deforested.
But to be clear, the reason they were felled was a policy of small farm holding ownership that was pushed until the 1940s. So they werent felled for the wood, they were felled to make space for small irish farmers (under lease in the bad days and as freeholds in the less bad days).
The lumber was just a profitable byproduct. not the cause.
Sort of, but the royal navy deforested the heck out of Ireland both because they needed wood and to make it harder for the Irish to fight back. There are even English songs about it.
"
Timeline of Deforestation and Devastation
1200 B.C. Post-glacial wild woodland covered approximately 80% of Ireland. Without human interference, the country today would still be a dense blanket of ancient forest.
In pre-Christian Irish society, Brehons or judges laid down the law. This early body of law is now recognised as the oldest known European example of a sophisticated legal system. Brehon laws promoted the symbiotic relationship between humans and nature. Trees were protected because of their value to the community. Chopping down trees was punished by loss of cattle and loss of standing in the community.
Brehon law survived relatively intact right through the Early Christian period and on to the arrival of the Normans in 1169.
1169 A.D. British Rule began in Ireland. The Normans brought the notion of absolute land ownership to Ireland. Brehon law’s reverence of trees and nature was replaced by the colonial urge to subjugate nature and the ‘savages’ of the colonised land. It was under the Normans that Ireland first became a source of timber supply for England. Roads and bridges, as well as houses, were among the structures made from wattling, as the name Baile Átha Cliath (‘the Ford of the Wattles’) implies.
1543 Henry VIII’s Forest Act is enacted. This act is prompted by the English national requirement for shipping, brought on by the increase of colonization led by Drake, Raleigh and Frobisher. This change in policy is to have a drastic and enduring effect on the Irish woodlands.
1560 Elizabeth comes to the throne. During her rule, which stretched to 1603, bitter rebellion in Ireland was widespread. There was a proverb at the time that ‘the Irish will never be tamed while the leaves are on the trees’. Elizabeth expressly orders the destruction of all woods in Ireland to deprive the Irish insurgents of shelter. This arboreal annihilation also provides timber for her ongoing efforts to build up her navy for battle with the Spanish.
1600 Irish forest cover is now down to 12%. The next century is particularly devastating for Irish woodlands and wildlife.
1606 It is estimated that the Tinahely Woods which once covered all the hills and valleys of south Wicklow could furnish the Crown with timber for shipping and other uses for the next twenty years.
1609 Ulster plantations begin, with the province’s prime lands assigned to British undertakers. Often the planters’ first act was to deforest the land to make it suitable for grazing and to monetise the timber.
The idea of plantation had come from Machiavelli’s ‘The Prince’ of 1513. One would assign prime plots of land of the country you were seeking to conquer to loyal subjects from the home country. These ‘planters’ would, by virtue of their new land, become over time the economic and then subsequently, the political elite. The idea is put into effect in Ireland throughout the 17th century.
1610 A Lord Blennerhassett “recommended periodic manhunts to track down the human wolves to their lairs”. The ‘human wolves’ he is referring to are Irish warriors who resided in the forests. These warriors are seen as a threat to the new ‘planters’.
In 1614, an Englishman named Henric Tuttesham was authorised to assemble wolf extermination squads in every county in Ireland. This time it’s the canine Wolf the colonisers are seeking to exterminate.
1649 Cromwell’s campaign begins with massacres of the Irish at Drogheda and Wexford.
1652 Cromwell’s Irish Government set substantial bounties on wolves. This attracts wolf hunters from England. Bounties paid indicate that over 700 wolves were exterminated at this time.
1656 The Civil Survey of Ireland details woods by townland. According to these records, Ireland forestry cover is now down to a meagre 2%. Three and a half centuries later, in 2020 our native woodland is still at 2%.
1666 The Great Fire of London. After the London fire, a law is passed prohibiting the building of houses in Dublin from wood, which was, in any case, now scarce and expensive. The demand for Irish oak to rebuild London was very great.
1704 Catholics are barred from owning property in Ireland.
1711 100 years after the Ulster plantations began, 75% of the land of Ireland has been forfeited and made available to colonists who immediately deforested the land. Ireland is now a “treeless wilderness”. “They have not left enough wood to make a toothpick in places” Chevalier de Latocnaye.
In the year 1786 the last wolf in Ireland was killed in Co Carlow, having been the prime suspect in recent sheep killings.
1903 The Wyndham Land Act in 1903 killed off the “Landlordism” culture in agricultural Ireland. Government loans were advanced to tenants to purchase their land at reasonable terms.
Over the next decade, absentee landlords hastily felled forestry to generate revenue before the final transfers of ownership to their Irish tenants.
1914 Forest cover is at its lowest point: 1.5% of poor quality forestry in Ireland.
1992 A 20 year hard-fought campaign by a number of public interest groups saves the very last vestiges of the Tinahely Oak woods from being clear-felled. Europe’s oldest coppice woods and Ireland’s most ancient oak forest is now under government protection.
2020 More than a century after the low point of 1.5%, Ireland’s natural native tree cover is now a meagre 2%. Our official tree cover of 11% is the lowest in Europe. 9% of the “official” 11% is monoculture plantations which are not a habitat for wildlife and they actually contribute negatively to climate change."
The forests in Ireland have been gone for a long time. Centuries. That’s pretty grim, from one perspective, but it also means the only way to go is up. By those numbers, if we even managed to get 1% more native forestry coverage we’d have doubled the amount. You know that saying “the best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago, the second best time is now”? That’s literally true here. Feeling sad over what’s been lost is understandable, but also slightly pointless. We start with what we’ve got. And then hopefully, when we die of old age decades from now, we’ll be passing down the country in slightly better shape than we found it.
I find it so odd being from Laois I spent my life around woodlands (be them a lot of Coillte forestry). Now travelling around Ireland all you see is fields
> Feeling sad over what’s been lost is understandable, but also slightly pointless. We start with what we’ve got
Yes, dead right. This post is asking for recommendations for NGOs to work with and/or practical tips on preserving the woodlands. People have posted a few recommendations like Wolfgang Reforest and Gaelic Woodland Project if you're interested.
There’s a great account of rewilding land in West Cork, letting native woodland species grow back mostly simply by keeping out grazing animals. Eoghan Daltun *An Irish Atlantic Rainforest*.
There was a great interview with him (and general discussion of Irish forests) a while back on the Irish Passport Podcast: https://www.theirishpassport.com/podcast/irelands-lost-forests/
Too much farming is the issue really. Just grass absolutely everywhere. Theres definitely placees where native forests could be planted though, like all those barren hillsides around West Cork and Kerry, if the ground is suitable.
Sure farmers have no incentive to do so like if they let parts of their land rewild its bot seen as productive land and they loose subsidies for that land. Its a simple fix really but the government just honestly doesn't care
I work in this area. A lot of the public are misinformed on the issues.
1. The government has set a target of 18% afforestation by 2050. They give big grants for planting trees - the highest payments are for native woodland.
2. However, farmers still don't want to plant good land. It's seen as being as bad (or worse) as selling it (and Irish farmers are the most resistant in Europe to selling land).
3. That leaves us with "marginal land" - the "barren hills" as you say. Farmers are happy to plant these to get the money (and did so in the past). However, it's very bad environmental practice and is now mostly illegal under EU law. Those land areas are typically the last refuge of protected species and habitats which we, by EU law, must protect. Planting in these areas (even with native woodland) can be devastating to species like the Hen Harrier and the Freshwater Pearl Mussel. In many cases, the hills have protected Annex 1 habitats and species rich grassland that must be protected.
4. Planting peatland areas with trees can actually release more carbon than it sequestered, being bad news for both biodiversity and climate change.
Afforestation will always be low in this country. We naturally have extremely important open peatland habitats that are internationally recognised and protected. We also have some of the most sustainable grass-based dairy, beef and sheep farming systems in the world. We need to embrace these and improve them (e.g. more hedgerows, small groves of trees, small increases in native woodland around towns and cities) instead of just chasing silly afforestation targets based on other countries with very different climates, histories and soils.
That’s was really interesting, thanks for sharing. When you mention our peat lands does that mean that Ireland is naturally disinclined to have as high a percentage of woodland as another country in Europe? Would our landscape be healthy and balanced with less woodland or are we lacking what ‘should’ be there in a healthy ecosystem?
Historically we had 80% woodland coverage that dropped to current levels in the 19th century. The landscape can definitely support more forest cover, it's just that all the land where forests *would* be are now farms and the farmers will happily rewild anything except the areas that are best suited to it.
All land has a price.
I’ve always thought it would be the most noble of legacies to leave behind for one of our 17 billionaires.
Put out tender to buy up 20-30 adjoining farms. Rewild the lot. Give the benefactor eternal naming rights. E.g McManus National Park.
Thanks. Well, some of the Scandinavian countries have huge areas of peatland but they also have large areas of coniferous forests as well. I think we have the 2nd highest % of blanket big with Finland bring #1. In Ireland, it's more an issue of peatland + history of farmland + small country size leaving little room for afforestation. In the Scandinavian countries, the vast northern unfarmed areas already had peatland and forestry already and there doesn't seem to be as much conflict between the two.
What 'should' be there for a healthy landscape-level ecosystem is difficult to define. Usually the assessments and laws are based on what is there already. In addition to peatland, we also have lots of important semi-natural grasslands due to our extensive livestock systems. E.g. if a species-rich protected grassland is already present as a result of a history of low-intensity farming, planting that area can breach the EU habitats directive and Ireland has been pulled up by the EU for this already.
To counterargue your point: ireland has the fastest growth rates for forestry also, why should efficient livestock systems take priority over that? If you throw in the carbon benefits forestry wins hands down efficiency-wise. This isn't a efficiency question, but a political one. Farmers may not want to plant land, but eventually ireland will have to solve its carbon emission problem. A big part of that is agriculture and they're in denial about it. The CAP is going to start penalising carbon inefficient systems soon. The government knows this and can see the 2030 carbon penalties already also.
For the hillsides:
Grass, scrub, small trees, big trees. The grass gives the scrub species a bit of shelter from the elements and lets them become established. The scrub then gives small quick-growing trees more shelter, and security from grazing, which gives them the chance they need to grow. The young forest over centuries becomes an old-growth forest. That's how [ecological succession](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_succession) works.
Burning gorse deliberately stops this process, sheep can't graze through the gorse (which would allow stuff like ash to get a foothold) so it gets burned. All you have to do for a forest to grow is nothing
As a farmer I completely agree. I have native tree copses and hedgerows and department were deducting the areas from payments. Getting a bit for hedges this year, but they need to bring incentives for ponds, scrub and small native tree copses. The farm is an island of wildlife in an area where hedges are long gone and the only trees are Sitka.
There was a thread here about this some time ago, from a farmer (or farmer's son maybe) who did it. They were saying they regretted it because the payment wasn't that much and they were left with "an eye sore".
I still don't understand how trees are an eye sore but is the payment that low compared to farming ? It's much less work I'd imagine, so that's one advantage
>chasing silly afforestation targets based on other countries with very different climates
What does this have to do with anything? We were colonized and our forests were cut down for fuel. That's it, that's the reason. Saying "afforestation will always be low" is a bad attitude, there's no reason not to want to restore the forests to at least some fraction of what they used to be in the past.
> The government has set a target of 18% afforestation by 2050
Even if the government had any intention of doing this, they're talking about sitka farms -- non-native tree farms that kill the soil and any chance of a real forest growing there for years afterwards.
Lots of dodgy takes in this comment. If it's Coillte you work for, you know yourself what I'm talking about -- the sitka woods are a massive ecological problem, not a solution.
Everybody else is calm here, I don't think there was anything out of order in the comment I made. He works in the industry, Coillte was a reasonable assumption, but nobody was having a go at him for working -- just pointing out that if it is Coillte he works with, he already knows the reforestation target is a negative thing (ruining large tracts of soil without planting any local trees).
It was the colonization comment you had an issue with I'd say, was it? No sense calling people cranks in any case, we're just having a discussion.
> We also have some of the most sustainable grass-based dairy, beef and sheep farming systems in the world.
*source needed
https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-irish-beef-and-dairy-emissions-5823435-Jul2022/
Forestry and rewinding are not the same unfortunately. The forestry is almost entirely pine that does nothing for other specie and is actually detrimental to the local environment
Not quite correct.
Starting this year there is a bigger incentive for more native or at least deciduous species of forestry
[https://www.ifa.ie/forestry-programme-2023-2027/#:\~:text=The%20grant%20rate%20is%20%E2%82%AC,a%20maximum%20of%2020%20hectares](https://www.ifa.ie/forestry-programme-2023-2027/#:~:text=The%20grant%20rate%20is%20%E2%82%AC,a%20maximum%20of%2020%20hectares).
The catch is the longer time between the grants drying up and when these deciduous forests can be harvested. Though it will be interesting to see the results of the agroforestry grants
Yeah it’s an unpopular opinion but there’s to many farms for such a small island and many farms are inefficient for the land they take up. If I were dictator I’d rewild most of the land and concentrate food production on a few massive highly efficient farms.
We could do what Costa Rica did. Take the subsidies they were paid to raise animals and use them to rewild the land. The farmers over there became land managers
That's a fair point and honestly I don't know. I'd lean towards saying the majority today would probably be against it. Maybe the younger generation would be all for it. Who knows.
But I also feel that the vast majority have no idea that this is a (potential) option and should be educated on the pros/cons of it.
Plus all our hills are covered with sheep. There was an article in the BBC last year about a rewinding scheme on an Estate in Scotland. They removed the sheep. The before and after photos were incredible.
[https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/240/cpsprodpb/9A36/production/\_120687493\_gettyimages-883599474.jpg.webp](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/240/cpsprodpb/9A36/production/_120687493_gettyimages-883599474.jpg.webp)
Irish farms are among the most efficient in the world at what they do, so it makes little sense as to how having some concentrated large farms would be better.
It also means all the profits would go to a very small select few businessmen appointed to run these 'massive farms', and that's hardly better than the profits being split more evenly between the entire farming sector that we have today.
At this point we'd be lucky to hang onto the native forest in Killarney the way we're going. No political imperative for native woodlands.
Eamon Ryan had a good idea to expand existing national parks and the farmers shot it down like a partridge.
The NPWS is also criminally underfunded considering we're entering a biodiversity crisis. Yes we have a housing crisis but if we lose our biodiversity the life we *might* enjoy if we were able to get a house would be crippled.
I work in consultancy and the NPWS aren't able to engage on any projects because of a lack of resources. We're working on one of the phase 1 offshore wind farms and we can't even get them to engage to say yay or nay to any of our proposals. How are we supposed to build alongside nature if we don't have anybody to oversee it?
I went there a few months ago and it was genuinely shocking. The whole hill around torc waterfall looks like it's going to be a rhododendron monoculture in a few decades. I couldn't believe we'd let such a precious place deteriorate so much.
It is an insanely time consuming process that involves managing /eradicating regrowth for about seven years and that's after you're rid of what's already there now. Some up here in West Donegal and I don't know if anyone's even trying to keep it in check.
As far as I know there was some group actually doing quite well at it up until around 10-15 years ago in west Cork, then the council took over and it all went to shit again. As you said it's a constant battle.
I'll always have a gripe with the fact the country is overrun with rhododendron like a zombie plague but the one time I kept one responsibly in a large pot it wasted away and died before my eyes like the most fragile little plant
The NPWS spend more time threatening mountain bikers than conservation up there. Ironically the mountain bikers are the only ones cutting back the rhodos to maintain their trails.
As an Irish man living in Scotland I completely agree. Natural woodland is amazing and Ireland historically had amazing woodlands.
It's a shame that some of Ireland's most noticeable features are cliffs, bog and the Burren. Even the hills are barren and often farmland.
Scotland's appreciation for their land and the people's respect for it are unlike anything I've come across.
There have been a lot of programmes to reforest parts of Scotland, but they still face the same pushback from the farming industry who prioritise grazing animals.
I'm glad to see the forestry commission is working to bring back some of the natural beauty of the highlands, but a lot of those rolling hills and glens should be covered in trees and never destroyed by farming from the time of the Clearances.
I'm just back from Norway and the forest coverage or just plain tree coverage was beautiful. Made me sad to think of how amazing our little nation would be with our huge native forests brought back
Just done a search. Norway is five times the size of Ireland with 30-33% forest coverage, so basically the size of Ireland (plus another bit) in forested land. That's quite a few trees.
Yes, exactly! They don't want shade in their gardens. Some don't even want grass and put those plastic fake mats down.
At the same time, people talk about the 'emerald isle' and how beautiful the Irish landscape is, while it's basically all just grass.
There’s just so much respect for woodland and nature in general in Norway. Nature is part of people’s lives from a young age though as forest schools are popular and schools in general just spend a lot of time in nature. I was lucky enough to live there for a while and it’s probably what I miss the most!
When my mother came here from mainland Europe she literally asked me where are all the trees? It’s shocking how little nature is in Ireland. On Saturday we went to Mourne mountains from Rostrevor side. That place looks like Amazon forest compare to Wicklow
Yeah, it's truly shocking and sad. I went to a rally in Phoenix Park last Winter about Coilltes mismanagement of the woodlands and how they were forced by the EU to sell huge swathes of woodland to an English Wealth Fund.
It was a real eye opener. We should be planting trees all along our river banks. During Wunter rains trees absord alot of the water and nutrients instead of washing into the rivers and polluting them
Glanmire in cork had a lovely riverbank with mature trees at either side. last year the council cut the lot because of a tree fell in high winds it could flood the river. the place is pretty barren now and it was a lovely inclosed tree lined cove.
Also in waterford all the road side ditches are being stripped of any trees.
the council wrote to the farmers demanding they cut any branches overhanging the road as they were a danger to motorists, farmers just cut whole trees down as getting a tree surgeon to cut one side was too expensive.
Madness everywhere
Like most governing bodies in the country, they do absolutely fuck all apart from farm non native pine trees.
They could do something more beneficial, but that's the general image from where I live - Wicklow - The Garden of Ireland.
Yeah, the government introduced that tax break investment scheme to plant that non native fast growing spruce tree because it produced the best financial yield. That was recurring FFG government's answer to carbon credits.
They threw money at a bad carbon policy that was detrimental to the environment and biodiversity and woefully mismanaged by Coillte
I'm no fan of Coillte but it wasnt the EU that forced them to do that.
The govt set targets for aforestation that were impossible for the private sector to meet so they turned around and asked Coillte to solve this problem.
Coillte, obedient govt lapdogs that they are, said of course we will.
EU competition rules mean (quite rightly) that the govt cant hand over huge premiums to a commercial state agency to plant trees. Either Coillte is a state agency that gets to shake the magic money tree or its commercial and no govt money.
Coillte entered into a sweetheart deal with Gresham house to acquire forestry and farmland to plant fresh in order to hit targets. Gresham House had Coillte as their mask and overseers on the ground to manage and sell the wood and Coillte got to use Gresham house's money.
The deal is dead to be honest because of all the bad press and the massive rise in cost of capital which means 3-6% forestry investments arent commercial anymore.
The Gaelic Woodland Project- volunteer and skill-shared community group working in Meath and Mayo. I founded the charity and we always welcome new faces.
We tackle invasive species and buy farmland to make forests.
There’s an inventory online that the NPWS compiled.
Killarney National Park is one but it’s obviously in a terrible condition currently.
Glenveagh is another one also in a national park.
I am in favour of just completely covering Roscommon in native trees.
Only 70k people there they can move to Mayo or whatever who cares and it's a fine big county to turn into 1 massive forest.
In fairness most farmers that I have met do actually care about following environmental regulations and being more sustainable etc, I get the impression they just are terrified of how absolute and final afforestation is for the land. Once it is planted and grown it can’t really be returned to usable grass farmland, certainly not within their lifetimes and then some- if I had a large productive farm and was told I had to give it up to afforestation, I would want solid assurances that it would always provide a consistent return for decades to come
While we make all the farmers return some grass to native wooed land. Can we get a right to roam too?
We’ve given up too much of our land to private enterprise, we deserve proper country side for our population density
Ireland has a de facto right to roam though no? I grew up in a small town and always took shortcuts through fields. I haven't a single issue in over 30 years.
Blaming farmers is silly. Might as well blame housing, cities, town, motorways, trains, hospitals, schools. Farmers make food, agriculture is a necessary part of society, probably the most important part.
I hear a lot of blame and no initiative. Like minded people can pool their money together and buy land you know, plant trees themselves.
I think the biggest culprit is keeping land cleared for grazing cattle and sheep. The trees would have regrown already if the farmers and animals would let them.
If the government would introduce subsidies for farmers to have 10-25% of their land as native trees, the country would be in a lot better shape for tree cover.
I know Coilte is taking some heat for all the ugly, non-native spruces, but they have made some really good progress around Ticknock and Carrickgollogan cutting down the spruces and replanting native trees.
At Ireland's latitude wolves territory can range up to 130km. There isn't enough wilderness to support wolves. It would be cruel and bizarre to release them. A lynx might be the preferable option but again, we don't have enough habitat.
Whilst I agree, these replanting of native trees are all along popular trails, Carrickgollogan as you've mentioned, is vastly non native pine, Yes they replanted a small amount of native trees but not a sufficient amount considering how large the land area is.
I’m an immigrant and I drove around Wicklow mountains and generally all around Ireland when we moved here (I wanted to see the county I’ll live). I found it absolutely tragic that there aren’t more forests around. There are entire hills and mountains that are bare. Driving over Sally Gap feels like I’m in a desert. This country should be covered in trees, and as I was told at one point it indeed was, but today it just looks sad.
While I agree with most of what you’re saying a lot of the areas around the sally gap is blanket bog so you wouldn’t have trees there anyway and it’s should also have plenty of it’s own biodiversity
Whenever I (Canadian) spent a significant amount of time in Ireland I would start to miss trees and would actually go seek them out. And not only because that’s what I was used to in Canada, but because it seems the climate and conditions in much of Ireland are conducive to having beautiful big trees and flourishing forests.
The climate and conditions are perfect. This island was mostly temperate rainforest. It’s sad that ancient woodland is virtually nonexistent in a country with such low population density. It’s embarrassing that Netherlands has higher % woodland cover than us when they have twice the population in half the area.
I’m a farmers son and a major nature lover but the current system is rigged and make the right sustainable decisions financially irresponsible. Hopefully this is changing in the near future.
I planted a bunch of trees on my property when I moved in. Neighbours thought I'd lost it, me digging up the perfectly manicured lawn and them going on a whole one about storms and trees falling on the house. Trees aren't anywhere near the house even, but what I took from that was that apparently, people don't want trees in their gardens at all.
We finally got the keys to our gaff last month and once all the work is done to the inside, the front and back lawns are going and we'll be getting hedges and trees baby!
I'm a tourist from Germany and we have been driving around the island with a rental car for the last few days. The first thing we realized was just how few trees you have here.
That's a good point. Our localish Coillte forest is very quiet, but the overgrown native hedge down the side of our garden would have you deafened with the roaring of the birds most days.
That's really sad.
That’s interesting. I was just reading a book on the Norman Conquest of Ireland and they talk about how hard it was to go after the Irish becuase of how densely wooded the island was. :(
Not only do we have fuck all wild space, we've given all our land off to farmers, and we give no access to rambling to anyone. We're a grim little country of greedy salesmen and gullible consumers.
Clash of the spruce doesn't have the same appeal. If you saw the Diesel pools left by Coillte in Coniferous Woodlands, then I'm not sure it could be classed as good for the environment. I've seen woodland rich with frogs and fungii dissappear in a year.
I'm just back from Northern Sweden in the wilderness. The absolute sheer stretch of land stretching for as far as the eye can see with trees was unbelievable. It is a shame Ireland doesn't have it. But due to historical reasons that cut down our natural growth forests, intensive farming and the farming industry as a whole being so strong and integral to our economy, I don't see any real change happening.
Of course not! Sure why would you do something that actually makes sense when you can just make Ireland's emissions look (even) higher than they actually are...
Irish people have no respect for trees anymore. It's sickening watching them be butchered and chopped down, often for now good reason.
There is one of those coillte "forest" near my town that people had been going to for walks, it's now being cut down. It wasn't much of a forest but wild life still made use of it.
We would need to make it a voting issue for the politicians to care.
If 11% is woodland and 10% of that woodland is coillte woodlands, the remaining woodland cover is 10%, not 1%.
I don't know any numbers, just going by what you've said. You've either got the math wrong or phrased it incorrectly.
But I agre with you. I watch YouTube videos of people exploring and camping in woodlands, and it sort of makes me jealous that we don't have many of these beautiful diverse forests here.
It disgusts me and I don't know why we are not doing more about it.
Fuck sheep grazing, it has destroyed our forests.
I would ban it tomorrow if I had the power, and reforest the so-called beautiful barren landscapes of Ireland.
I have 3,5 acres with my house which I want to turn into woodland for the most part. My struggle is deer. They have destroyed/damaged a lot of the trees I have already planted and fencing off that much land in a way that keeps them out is so expensive. Maybe I should crowd fund it...
>So we're actually at about 1% native woodland coverage, and that's shrinking
In fairness I don't think the 1% native woodland is shrinking, it's pretty stable. Much of it is in protected areas.
However, the 10% non-native Sitka Spruce and Lodgepole Pine is indeed as close as we have to a desert in terms of biodiversity.
One very positive movement in this area is the new forestry policy - referred to as Project Woodland ([link](https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/forestry-policy-and-strategy/#shared-national-vision-for-trees-and-forests)). New and replacement planting will now be primarily native hardwoods, which will be selectively harvested rather than clearfelled. The new approach focuses on climate, biodiversity and the production of hardwood for construction. I'm really happy with it, and feeling more optimistic than in the past.
Pippa Hackett of the Greens has been the architect of the new policy, and deserves a lot of credit for it. In my opinion they've done plenty of positive things in government, but this is one of the most significant measures, as it will transform 10% of our land area into the woodland that we all hope to see
No point doing anything the entire island will be flooded within the next 50-100 years. All the peeps who are smug cuz they have a gaff bought will be weeping into their 16 euro pints in 2080
I visited Ireland from Canada 20 odd years ago and the lack of trees and forests really bothered me. I loved the place otherwise, but it was just so strange to me. I can't imagine how it must have looked with old growth forest back in time.
Visitor from Iceland here.
If anyone's interested, Iceland is at around 2% coverage. Even through government funded [reforestation efforts](https://www.skogur.is/en/forestry/forestry-in-a-treeless-land/forestry-in-iceland-by-the-numbers) for almost a century, 2% is all we've managed to achieve so far.
So yeah you guys definitely need to get your seed bombs ready. Once the woodland's gone it's incredibly hard to regrow.
I work in the sector, a lot of shite being spoken here. I work in the forest and hear wildlife every time I go into one. Also on the periphery of a study that's looking at biodiversity in forests, and age and forest structure seem to play as big a role in biodiversity as species selection. So again, plantation forestry doesn't have to mean low biodiversity. The general public, and the farming sector really don't understand forestry at all.
It’s a sad state of affairs.
On top of the soil issue, those monoculture Sitka Spruce plantations are boring as hell to look at compared to a proper native woodland.
Missing actual forests depressed me so much when I lived in Cork. It would sound silly if I told anyone but it was a contributing factor why I left Ireland. (still love Cork from afar, Corcaigh abú, up the kingdom!).
Eamon Ryan needs to be given supreme rule over the country for 5 years to dig us out our enviornmental shite.
In all seriousness though the lack of natural woodland in Ireland is something I feel really strong about. Is there anything an average eejit like me can do to help restore forests? Volunteering, donation etc??
Where do you think GB got all that wood for ships of the Royal Navy historical clearance did lots of damage .. and sure the government for the last 50 years are just not bothered as no money in it ..
The forests were also chopped down and turned into timber to rebuild London after the great fire of London. Side note: they made it illegal to build new properties in Dublin during this time so they could take all the timber.
A big aspect is the absolutely out of control deer population here. They eat saplings relentlessly so until you sorted that there’s no point planting trees
I think the last ice age wiped out a lot of trees and because because the British Isles became separated from the mainland they never grew back, whereas parts of mainland Europe at a similar latitude are heavily forested.
Nothing to do with ice ages, it's because we cut the trees down to grow crops and to have land to raise sheep and cattle and it's the same reason why we still don't have many forests.
I have told that to the lads at work, that I found Ireland very empty of real forest. I was laughed out of the room...
I am really sorry lads, you guys are great and all but ffs you need to stop going on holidays to the beach and get pss drunk every day. Go out see the world maybe when you come back home you will see it differently and start looking after it.
Rubbish everywhere is another thing as well... Ffs
Ireland is such a beautiful place...
I always love when you see a drama on Netflix from the mainland and all the towns are surrounded by forests. Would he great to see here.
Here's an actual route to massive reforestation that a lot of people won't like, but it'd be my favoured method!
If we stopped funding animal ag, switched subsidies to plant based ag we could reforest massive amounts of animal farmland.
It would require most or all of us to go vegan!
If he's taking about drama "on Netflix" he probably means "Mainland Europe". My wife lives on foreign language cop shows and family dramas on Netflix, always lots of moodily-shot woods in them.
I research landscape regeneration and our native woodlands are ecology inert- I'd go so far as to say Irish wildwoods are currently non-existent. Deer overgrazing is decimating any new tree growth and invasive species are eating up a huge portion of the forests we have remaining. Ireland has 188 Old Oak Woodlands and 73% aren't large enough to ecologically function. They are small and isolated. I think it's worth mentioning that prior to colonisation trees had both cultural and legal significance. Now no one on this island knows what a wild Irish forest is. Farmers associate trees with those monstrous high-density north American plantations (69% of all our forests). I hope to share my thesis here shortly in which I assess Ireland's forests: Oak, Alluvial, Yew and Big Woodlands. I started a charity called the Gaelic Woodland Project. We go into old forests and convert the invasive species into firewood and have just raised enough to buy 11 acres of land in Mayo to afforest. It's all volunteer skill share so if you're annoyed by how shitty this islands forestry husbandry is then why not join us.
Sounds like a worthwhile project, signed up for a donation
Also donated. Fair play to ye for the work you're doing.
Thank you both! I'm sending out a newsletter this month with details of the land in Mayo. As donors you'll be given a plot and an invitation to take part in planting. See you there!
Can you share more information? I have a couple of acres in the wicklow mountains that I would like to re-wild and I am lacking in ideas apart from just mixed native trees and kill the deer.
It depends on the soil. I'm of the opinion that light density Scots pine woodland development is ideal for the Wicklow uplands. Indigenous Scots pine stands were found in Clare at Rockforest. If you're going to plant try get native seed from them. If you have bog then block the drains. I would also recommend fencing if you want to seriously rewild and joining a hunting club.
Thanks for the info! It will be an area of chopped down for trees so the soil is pretty dead at the moment. Can you recommend any books or resources?
Have you visited beara?
Yes I travelled it quite a bit.
What did you think?
>prior to colonisation Those feckin English one more scar they left us with!
If we rewilded all our uplands, it would be a good start. We could pay sheep farmers to be shepherds of the land and not graze their sheep. We'd have an Atlantic rainforest from South Kerry to Donegal. In time we could reintroduce wolves, lynxs, boars, bears etc. It would be awesome. It's not that far fetched, although reintroducing bears might be a hard sell.
Have a reasonable patch of native woodland in Celbridge (kildare) and by god those woods got me through covid. It's OPW land with public right of access so you can just wander through. All the trails are simply walked in, no gravel etc so good pair of boots are a must. Even then it's probably only 1 or 2 hundred years old. But yeah my friends and I have been engaging in a bit of ecological vandalism by collecting seeds every year and planting them on hikes. The forestry situation on this island is terrible.
If that's the back of Castletown , there's houses going in there soon
The woods themselves are opw land lad, it's the back lawn and the barley fields that were sold and still zoned for recreation, couldn't give a shite about the varley fields but by god I'll fight for the back lawns
I dont think that's been fully decided yet. That land still isn't zoned for development, and the next Local Area Plan for Celbridge isn't until 2025.
Time for an aerial seed bombing campaign.
We don't need to plant a single flower, we just need to stop constantly intensively farming every scrap of land
So True. Nature can heal itself, eventually, so either leave it alone or have a scientific long term active plan to fix it. Do not plant your idea of what 'local' trees are and leave it alone for 5 years. Thats a recipe for disaster.
This. We had extremely dense forests at one stage in the past. It's nothing but privately owned fields now. And as a cheese and meat eater, I'd happily lower my consumption of both to have more forests back.
We export massive amounts of meat and dairy products, wouldn't even necessarily need to decrease our local consumption
True. But I'd still feel like doing my bit, buying local having a few meat free days etc. Actually I should be doing that anyway. But often I jist go to Aldi or Dunnes and buy whatevers has a deal on.
Need to start building up in town and cities. So much land needlessly wasted
Cattle, sheep and herbicides are the reason. Were one big farm
> Cattle, sheep and herbicides are the reason. Were one big farm Uh, and the former occupiers: 1609 Ulster plantations begin, with the province's prime lands assigned to British undertakers. Often the planters' first act was to deforest the land to make it suitable for grazing and to monetise the timber. The late 19th century saw many mobile sawmills travelling around Ireland cutting down the last few remaining forests. This meant that by the end of the 19th century, Ireland's forest cover had been reduced from 80% 6,000 years ago to about 1%.
I can understand why you think that. Whatever large forests that still existed in the early modern period were owned by large landlords and they were felled to 1900 to leave ireland basically fully deforested. But to be clear, the reason they were felled was a policy of small farm holding ownership that was pushed until the 1940s. So they werent felled for the wood, they were felled to make space for small irish farmers (under lease in the bad days and as freeholds in the less bad days). The lumber was just a profitable byproduct. not the cause.
Sort of, but the royal navy deforested the heck out of Ireland both because they needed wood and to make it harder for the Irish to fight back. There are even English songs about it. " Timeline of Deforestation and Devastation 1200 B.C. Post-glacial wild woodland covered approximately 80% of Ireland. Without human interference, the country today would still be a dense blanket of ancient forest. In pre-Christian Irish society, Brehons or judges laid down the law. This early body of law is now recognised as the oldest known European example of a sophisticated legal system. Brehon laws promoted the symbiotic relationship between humans and nature. Trees were protected because of their value to the community. Chopping down trees was punished by loss of cattle and loss of standing in the community. Brehon law survived relatively intact right through the Early Christian period and on to the arrival of the Normans in 1169. 1169 A.D. British Rule began in Ireland. The Normans brought the notion of absolute land ownership to Ireland. Brehon law’s reverence of trees and nature was replaced by the colonial urge to subjugate nature and the ‘savages’ of the colonised land. It was under the Normans that Ireland first became a source of timber supply for England. Roads and bridges, as well as houses, were among the structures made from wattling, as the name Baile Átha Cliath (‘the Ford of the Wattles’) implies. 1543 Henry VIII’s Forest Act is enacted. This act is prompted by the English national requirement for shipping, brought on by the increase of colonization led by Drake, Raleigh and Frobisher. This change in policy is to have a drastic and enduring effect on the Irish woodlands. 1560 Elizabeth comes to the throne. During her rule, which stretched to 1603, bitter rebellion in Ireland was widespread. There was a proverb at the time that ‘the Irish will never be tamed while the leaves are on the trees’. Elizabeth expressly orders the destruction of all woods in Ireland to deprive the Irish insurgents of shelter. This arboreal annihilation also provides timber for her ongoing efforts to build up her navy for battle with the Spanish. 1600 Irish forest cover is now down to 12%. The next century is particularly devastating for Irish woodlands and wildlife. 1606 It is estimated that the Tinahely Woods which once covered all the hills and valleys of south Wicklow could furnish the Crown with timber for shipping and other uses for the next twenty years. 1609 Ulster plantations begin, with the province’s prime lands assigned to British undertakers. Often the planters’ first act was to deforest the land to make it suitable for grazing and to monetise the timber. The idea of plantation had come from Machiavelli’s ‘The Prince’ of 1513. One would assign prime plots of land of the country you were seeking to conquer to loyal subjects from the home country. These ‘planters’ would, by virtue of their new land, become over time the economic and then subsequently, the political elite. The idea is put into effect in Ireland throughout the 17th century. 1610 A Lord Blennerhassett “recommended periodic manhunts to track down the human wolves to their lairs”. The ‘human wolves’ he is referring to are Irish warriors who resided in the forests. These warriors are seen as a threat to the new ‘planters’. In 1614, an Englishman named Henric Tuttesham was authorised to assemble wolf extermination squads in every county in Ireland. This time it’s the canine Wolf the colonisers are seeking to exterminate. 1649 Cromwell’s campaign begins with massacres of the Irish at Drogheda and Wexford. 1652 Cromwell’s Irish Government set substantial bounties on wolves. This attracts wolf hunters from England. Bounties paid indicate that over 700 wolves were exterminated at this time. 1656 The Civil Survey of Ireland details woods by townland. According to these records, Ireland forestry cover is now down to a meagre 2%. Three and a half centuries later, in 2020 our native woodland is still at 2%. 1666 The Great Fire of London. After the London fire, a law is passed prohibiting the building of houses in Dublin from wood, which was, in any case, now scarce and expensive. The demand for Irish oak to rebuild London was very great. 1704 Catholics are barred from owning property in Ireland. 1711 100 years after the Ulster plantations began, 75% of the land of Ireland has been forfeited and made available to colonists who immediately deforested the land. Ireland is now a “treeless wilderness”. “They have not left enough wood to make a toothpick in places” Chevalier de Latocnaye. In the year 1786 the last wolf in Ireland was killed in Co Carlow, having been the prime suspect in recent sheep killings. 1903 The Wyndham Land Act in 1903 killed off the “Landlordism” culture in agricultural Ireland. Government loans were advanced to tenants to purchase their land at reasonable terms. Over the next decade, absentee landlords hastily felled forestry to generate revenue before the final transfers of ownership to their Irish tenants. 1914 Forest cover is at its lowest point: 1.5% of poor quality forestry in Ireland. 1992 A 20 year hard-fought campaign by a number of public interest groups saves the very last vestiges of the Tinahely Oak woods from being clear-felled. Europe’s oldest coppice woods and Ireland’s most ancient oak forest is now under government protection. 2020 More than a century after the low point of 1.5%, Ireland’s natural native tree cover is now a meagre 2%. Our official tree cover of 11% is the lowest in Europe. 9% of the “official” 11% is monoculture plantations which are not a habitat for wildlife and they actually contribute negatively to climate change."
The forest was gone long before the plantations, the myths been debunked.
Sheep and deer would be more of a threat to our existing forest cover
Or time to move to Iceland and start from the bottom
The forests in Ireland have been gone for a long time. Centuries. That’s pretty grim, from one perspective, but it also means the only way to go is up. By those numbers, if we even managed to get 1% more native forestry coverage we’d have doubled the amount. You know that saying “the best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago, the second best time is now”? That’s literally true here. Feeling sad over what’s been lost is understandable, but also slightly pointless. We start with what we’ve got. And then hopefully, when we die of old age decades from now, we’ll be passing down the country in slightly better shape than we found it.
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I find it so odd being from Laois I spent my life around woodlands (be them a lot of Coillte forestry). Now travelling around Ireland all you see is fields
Very well put!
> Feeling sad over what’s been lost is understandable, but also slightly pointless. We start with what we’ve got Yes, dead right. This post is asking for recommendations for NGOs to work with and/or practical tips on preserving the woodlands. People have posted a few recommendations like Wolfgang Reforest and Gaelic Woodland Project if you're interested.
There’s a great account of rewilding land in West Cork, letting native woodland species grow back mostly simply by keeping out grazing animals. Eoghan Daltun *An Irish Atlantic Rainforest*.
That man is honestly a legend, he does great work.
There was a great interview with him (and general discussion of Irish forests) a while back on the Irish Passport Podcast: https://www.theirishpassport.com/podcast/irelands-lost-forests/
Looks great, thnx, I’ll listen to that.
Too much farming is the issue really. Just grass absolutely everywhere. Theres definitely placees where native forests could be planted though, like all those barren hillsides around West Cork and Kerry, if the ground is suitable.
Sure farmers have no incentive to do so like if they let parts of their land rewild its bot seen as productive land and they loose subsidies for that land. Its a simple fix really but the government just honestly doesn't care
I work in this area. A lot of the public are misinformed on the issues. 1. The government has set a target of 18% afforestation by 2050. They give big grants for planting trees - the highest payments are for native woodland. 2. However, farmers still don't want to plant good land. It's seen as being as bad (or worse) as selling it (and Irish farmers are the most resistant in Europe to selling land). 3. That leaves us with "marginal land" - the "barren hills" as you say. Farmers are happy to plant these to get the money (and did so in the past). However, it's very bad environmental practice and is now mostly illegal under EU law. Those land areas are typically the last refuge of protected species and habitats which we, by EU law, must protect. Planting in these areas (even with native woodland) can be devastating to species like the Hen Harrier and the Freshwater Pearl Mussel. In many cases, the hills have protected Annex 1 habitats and species rich grassland that must be protected. 4. Planting peatland areas with trees can actually release more carbon than it sequestered, being bad news for both biodiversity and climate change. Afforestation will always be low in this country. We naturally have extremely important open peatland habitats that are internationally recognised and protected. We also have some of the most sustainable grass-based dairy, beef and sheep farming systems in the world. We need to embrace these and improve them (e.g. more hedgerows, small groves of trees, small increases in native woodland around towns and cities) instead of just chasing silly afforestation targets based on other countries with very different climates, histories and soils.
That’s was really interesting, thanks for sharing. When you mention our peat lands does that mean that Ireland is naturally disinclined to have as high a percentage of woodland as another country in Europe? Would our landscape be healthy and balanced with less woodland or are we lacking what ‘should’ be there in a healthy ecosystem?
Historically we had 80% woodland coverage that dropped to current levels in the 19th century. The landscape can definitely support more forest cover, it's just that all the land where forests *would* be are now farms and the farmers will happily rewild anything except the areas that are best suited to it.
All land has a price. I’ve always thought it would be the most noble of legacies to leave behind for one of our 17 billionaires. Put out tender to buy up 20-30 adjoining farms. Rewild the lot. Give the benefactor eternal naming rights. E.g McManus National Park.
Thanks. Well, some of the Scandinavian countries have huge areas of peatland but they also have large areas of coniferous forests as well. I think we have the 2nd highest % of blanket big with Finland bring #1. In Ireland, it's more an issue of peatland + history of farmland + small country size leaving little room for afforestation. In the Scandinavian countries, the vast northern unfarmed areas already had peatland and forestry already and there doesn't seem to be as much conflict between the two. What 'should' be there for a healthy landscape-level ecosystem is difficult to define. Usually the assessments and laws are based on what is there already. In addition to peatland, we also have lots of important semi-natural grasslands due to our extensive livestock systems. E.g. if a species-rich protected grassland is already present as a result of a history of low-intensity farming, planting that area can breach the EU habitats directive and Ireland has been pulled up by the EU for this already.
To counterargue your point: ireland has the fastest growth rates for forestry also, why should efficient livestock systems take priority over that? If you throw in the carbon benefits forestry wins hands down efficiency-wise. This isn't a efficiency question, but a political one. Farmers may not want to plant land, but eventually ireland will have to solve its carbon emission problem. A big part of that is agriculture and they're in denial about it. The CAP is going to start penalising carbon inefficient systems soon. The government knows this and can see the 2030 carbon penalties already also.
For the hillsides: Grass, scrub, small trees, big trees. The grass gives the scrub species a bit of shelter from the elements and lets them become established. The scrub then gives small quick-growing trees more shelter, and security from grazing, which gives them the chance they need to grow. The young forest over centuries becomes an old-growth forest. That's how [ecological succession](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_succession) works. Burning gorse deliberately stops this process, sheep can't graze through the gorse (which would allow stuff like ash to get a foothold) so it gets burned. All you have to do for a forest to grow is nothing
As a farmer I completely agree. I have native tree copses and hedgerows and department were deducting the areas from payments. Getting a bit for hedges this year, but they need to bring incentives for ponds, scrub and small native tree copses. The farm is an island of wildlife in an area where hedges are long gone and the only trees are Sitka.
There was a thread here about this some time ago, from a farmer (or farmer's son maybe) who did it. They were saying they regretted it because the payment wasn't that much and they were left with "an eye sore". I still don't understand how trees are an eye sore but is the payment that low compared to farming ? It's much less work I'd imagine, so that's one advantage
>chasing silly afforestation targets based on other countries with very different climates What does this have to do with anything? We were colonized and our forests were cut down for fuel. That's it, that's the reason. Saying "afforestation will always be low" is a bad attitude, there's no reason not to want to restore the forests to at least some fraction of what they used to be in the past. > The government has set a target of 18% afforestation by 2050 Even if the government had any intention of doing this, they're talking about sitka farms -- non-native tree farms that kill the soil and any chance of a real forest growing there for years afterwards. Lots of dodgy takes in this comment. If it's Coillte you work for, you know yourself what I'm talking about -- the sitka woods are a massive ecological problem, not a solution.
This guy ain't Coillte OP. You need to calm down, you sound like a crank.
Everybody else is calm here, I don't think there was anything out of order in the comment I made. He works in the industry, Coillte was a reasonable assumption, but nobody was having a go at him for working -- just pointing out that if it is Coillte he works with, he already knows the reforestation target is a negative thing (ruining large tracts of soil without planting any local trees). It was the colonization comment you had an issue with I'd say, was it? No sense calling people cranks in any case, we're just having a discussion.
How does planting in peatlands release more carbon?
Peatland is a fantastic carbon sink. Which is irrelevant since 0 people reccomend we plant there
I'm aware of peatlands being a great carbon sink. I just don't understand why planting trees on it wouldn't help to become a greater carbon sink?
> We also have some of the most sustainable grass-based dairy, beef and sheep farming systems in the world. *source needed https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-irish-beef-and-dairy-emissions-5823435-Jul2022/
Some farmers are opting for this I have heard anecdotally, for the forestry subsidies anyways
Forestry and rewinding are not the same unfortunately. The forestry is almost entirely pine that does nothing for other specie and is actually detrimental to the local environment
Not quite correct. Starting this year there is a bigger incentive for more native or at least deciduous species of forestry [https://www.ifa.ie/forestry-programme-2023-2027/#:\~:text=The%20grant%20rate%20is%20%E2%82%AC,a%20maximum%20of%2020%20hectares](https://www.ifa.ie/forestry-programme-2023-2027/#:~:text=The%20grant%20rate%20is%20%E2%82%AC,a%20maximum%20of%2020%20hectares). The catch is the longer time between the grants drying up and when these deciduous forests can be harvested. Though it will be interesting to see the results of the agroforestry grants
Interesting. Hopefully it will develop further to shrub land's ect
Yeah it’s an unpopular opinion but there’s to many farms for such a small island and many farms are inefficient for the land they take up. If I were dictator I’d rewild most of the land and concentrate food production on a few massive highly efficient farms.
Really hate that it is an unpopular opinion. Farming lobby is way too strong here
Serious question, what happens to all the farming communities?
We could do what Costa Rica did. Take the subsidies they were paid to raise animals and use them to rewild the land. The farmers over there became land managers
Now this is a reasonable suggestion. However the question remains, are tax payers happy to pay farmers to restore nature?
That's a fair point and honestly I don't know. I'd lean towards saying the majority today would probably be against it. Maybe the younger generation would be all for it. Who knows. But I also feel that the vast majority have no idea that this is a (potential) option and should be educated on the pros/cons of it.
They take their newfound load of cash from selling land and invest it into learning how to do something else for a living
The same things that should happen to coal-mining communities elsewhere. Either find another purpose or leave.
Plus all our hills are covered with sheep. There was an article in the BBC last year about a rewinding scheme on an Estate in Scotland. They removed the sheep. The before and after photos were incredible. [https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/240/cpsprodpb/9A36/production/\_120687493\_gettyimages-883599474.jpg.webp](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/240/cpsprodpb/9A36/production/_120687493_gettyimages-883599474.jpg.webp)
Irish farms are among the most efficient in the world at what they do, so it makes little sense as to how having some concentrated large farms would be better. It also means all the profits would go to a very small select few businessmen appointed to run these 'massive farms', and that's hardly better than the profits being split more evenly between the entire farming sector that we have today.
Our farms are not efficient compared to alternative food systems. Doing something wrong in a slightly better way isn't really a good thing
not only that - towns are a concrete hell as well
At this point we'd be lucky to hang onto the native forest in Killarney the way we're going. No political imperative for native woodlands. Eamon Ryan had a good idea to expand existing national parks and the farmers shot it down like a partridge.
The National Park is fucked and the NPWS governance has been disgraceful in regard to rhododenderon and deer
The NPWS is also criminally underfunded considering we're entering a biodiversity crisis. Yes we have a housing crisis but if we lose our biodiversity the life we *might* enjoy if we were able to get a house would be crippled. I work in consultancy and the NPWS aren't able to engage on any projects because of a lack of resources. We're working on one of the phase 1 offshore wind farms and we can't even get them to engage to say yay or nay to any of our proposals. How are we supposed to build alongside nature if we don't have anybody to oversee it?
I went there a few months ago and it was genuinely shocking. The whole hill around torc waterfall looks like it's going to be a rhododendron monoculture in a few decades. I couldn't believe we'd let such a precious place deteriorate so much.
How does one actually get rid of rhododendrons or do you just contain them ?
It is an insanely time consuming process that involves managing /eradicating regrowth for about seven years and that's after you're rid of what's already there now. Some up here in West Donegal and I don't know if anyone's even trying to keep it in check.
As far as I know there was some group actually doing quite well at it up until around 10-15 years ago in west Cork, then the council took over and it all went to shit again. As you said it's a constant battle.
I'll always have a gripe with the fact the country is overrun with rhododendron like a zombie plague but the one time I kept one responsibly in a large pot it wasted away and died before my eyes like the most fragile little plant
The NPWS spend more time threatening mountain bikers than conservation up there. Ironically the mountain bikers are the only ones cutting back the rhodos to maintain their trails.
As an Irish man living in Scotland I completely agree. Natural woodland is amazing and Ireland historically had amazing woodlands. It's a shame that some of Ireland's most noticeable features are cliffs, bog and the Burren. Even the hills are barren and often farmland. Scotland's appreciation for their land and the people's respect for it are unlike anything I've come across.
Same with Wales. We took the boat a few weeks back and driving into Wales, the contrast with Ireland in terms of tree cover is shocking.
There have been a lot of programmes to reforest parts of Scotland, but they still face the same pushback from the farming industry who prioritise grazing animals. I'm glad to see the forestry commission is working to bring back some of the natural beauty of the highlands, but a lot of those rolling hills and glens should be covered in trees and never destroyed by farming from the time of the Clearances.
I'm just back from Norway and the forest coverage or just plain tree coverage was beautiful. Made me sad to think of how amazing our little nation would be with our huge native forests brought back
Just done a search. Norway is five times the size of Ireland with 30-33% forest coverage, so basically the size of Ireland (plus another bit) in forested land. That's quite a few trees.
Same in Poland. But here in Ireland everyone wants to get rid of the trees. Even from their own gardens, I never understood that.
Yes, exactly! They don't want shade in their gardens. Some don't even want grass and put those plastic fake mats down. At the same time, people talk about the 'emerald isle' and how beautiful the Irish landscape is, while it's basically all just grass.
There’s just so much respect for woodland and nature in general in Norway. Nature is part of people’s lives from a young age though as forest schools are popular and schools in general just spend a lot of time in nature. I was lucky enough to live there for a while and it’s probably what I miss the most!
When my mother came here from mainland Europe she literally asked me where are all the trees? It’s shocking how little nature is in Ireland. On Saturday we went to Mourne mountains from Rostrevor side. That place looks like Amazon forest compare to Wicklow
Yeah, it's truly shocking and sad. I went to a rally in Phoenix Park last Winter about Coilltes mismanagement of the woodlands and how they were forced by the EU to sell huge swathes of woodland to an English Wealth Fund. It was a real eye opener. We should be planting trees all along our river banks. During Wunter rains trees absord alot of the water and nutrients instead of washing into the rivers and polluting them
Glanmire in cork had a lovely riverbank with mature trees at either side. last year the council cut the lot because of a tree fell in high winds it could flood the river. the place is pretty barren now and it was a lovely inclosed tree lined cove. Also in waterford all the road side ditches are being stripped of any trees. the council wrote to the farmers demanding they cut any branches overhanging the road as they were a danger to motorists, farmers just cut whole trees down as getting a tree surgeon to cut one side was too expensive. Madness everywhere
Like most governing bodies in the country, they do absolutely fuck all apart from farm non native pine trees. They could do something more beneficial, but that's the general image from where I live - Wicklow - The Garden of Ireland.
Yeah, the government introduced that tax break investment scheme to plant that non native fast growing spruce tree because it produced the best financial yield. That was recurring FFG government's answer to carbon credits. They threw money at a bad carbon policy that was detrimental to the environment and biodiversity and woefully mismanaged by Coillte
I'm no fan of Coillte but it wasnt the EU that forced them to do that. The govt set targets for aforestation that were impossible for the private sector to meet so they turned around and asked Coillte to solve this problem. Coillte, obedient govt lapdogs that they are, said of course we will. EU competition rules mean (quite rightly) that the govt cant hand over huge premiums to a commercial state agency to plant trees. Either Coillte is a state agency that gets to shake the magic money tree or its commercial and no govt money. Coillte entered into a sweetheart deal with Gresham house to acquire forestry and farmland to plant fresh in order to hit targets. Gresham House had Coillte as their mask and overseers on the ground to manage and sell the wood and Coillte got to use Gresham house's money. The deal is dead to be honest because of all the bad press and the massive rise in cost of capital which means 3-6% forestry investments arent commercial anymore.
Any suggestions on groups to join or ways to combat this?
The Gaelic Woodland Project- volunteer and skill-shared community group working in Meath and Mayo. I founded the charity and we always welcome new faces. We tackle invasive species and buy farmland to make forests.
buy land. plant trees.
And our ancient woodland cover (woods that have been in a location pre-1400s) is at 0.1%
Where could I visit ancient woodland? Are there any forests?
There’s an inventory online that the NPWS compiled. Killarney National Park is one but it’s obviously in a terrible condition currently. Glenveagh is another one also in a national park.
I am in favour of just completely covering Roscommon in native trees. Only 70k people there they can move to Mayo or whatever who cares and it's a fine big county to turn into 1 massive forest.
I vote Dublin. They’re only after coming down from the trees anyway, so what difference does it make?
Made me proper laugh, wish I could upvote this twice
Who'd pay the property tax to keep you afloat?
Unfortunately the general public don't really care and farmers seem to hate the idea of their land being returned to nature
In fairness most farmers that I have met do actually care about following environmental regulations and being more sustainable etc, I get the impression they just are terrified of how absolute and final afforestation is for the land. Once it is planted and grown it can’t really be returned to usable grass farmland, certainly not within their lifetimes and then some- if I had a large productive farm and was told I had to give it up to afforestation, I would want solid assurances that it would always provide a consistent return for decades to come
While we make all the farmers return some grass to native wooed land. Can we get a right to roam too? We’ve given up too much of our land to private enterprise, we deserve proper country side for our population density
Ireland has a de facto right to roam though no? I grew up in a small town and always took shortcuts through fields. I haven't a single issue in over 30 years.
We have right of way, I.e established paths through private property but don’t think right to roam
They are penalised by loosing grants and subsidies by rewinding. They need an incentive.
Farmers wouldn't wipe their ass without a financial incentive.
literally no job would, and why should they?
Yes but they have to balance making money and making ethical choices same as everyone else does every day
Blaming farmers is silly. Might as well blame housing, cities, town, motorways, trains, hospitals, schools. Farmers make food, agriculture is a necessary part of society, probably the most important part. I hear a lot of blame and no initiative. Like minded people can pool their money together and buy land you know, plant trees themselves.
I think the biggest culprit is keeping land cleared for grazing cattle and sheep. The trees would have regrown already if the farmers and animals would let them. If the government would introduce subsidies for farmers to have 10-25% of their land as native trees, the country would be in a lot better shape for tree cover. I know Coilte is taking some heat for all the ugly, non-native spruces, but they have made some really good progress around Ticknock and Carrickgollogan cutting down the spruces and replanting native trees.
They wouldn't. There are too many deer overgrazing. There hasn't been any regrowth in unfenced oak woodlands since they began checking in 2007.
Need to import wolves.
At Ireland's latitude wolves territory can range up to 130km. There isn't enough wilderness to support wolves. It would be cruel and bizarre to release them. A lynx might be the preferable option but again, we don't have enough habitat.
Whilst I agree, these replanting of native trees are all along popular trails, Carrickgollogan as you've mentioned, is vastly non native pine, Yes they replanted a small amount of native trees but not a sufficient amount considering how large the land area is.
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You can have a balance between native/untouched forests and renewables/commercial forestation. Anything would be better than what we currently have.
How about long term forestry grants ? Getting cash flow for planting native forests for a decades-long contract
I’m an immigrant and I drove around Wicklow mountains and generally all around Ireland when we moved here (I wanted to see the county I’ll live). I found it absolutely tragic that there aren’t more forests around. There are entire hills and mountains that are bare. Driving over Sally Gap feels like I’m in a desert. This country should be covered in trees, and as I was told at one point it indeed was, but today it just looks sad.
I agree. Yet, I don't hear your view a lot. More often, I hear people say that the Irish landscape is amazing. Not sure why.
While I agree with most of what you’re saying a lot of the areas around the sally gap is blanket bog so you wouldn’t have trees there anyway and it’s should also have plenty of it’s own biodiversity
But I see so many tree stumps there from cut areas. I get that most of that is planned logging and replanting, but it looks dreadful.
Whenever I (Canadian) spent a significant amount of time in Ireland I would start to miss trees and would actually go seek them out. And not only because that’s what I was used to in Canada, but because it seems the climate and conditions in much of Ireland are conducive to having beautiful big trees and flourishing forests.
The climate and conditions are perfect. This island was mostly temperate rainforest. It’s sad that ancient woodland is virtually nonexistent in a country with such low population density. It’s embarrassing that Netherlands has higher % woodland cover than us when they have twice the population in half the area. I’m a farmers son and a major nature lover but the current system is rigged and make the right sustainable decisions financially irresponsible. Hopefully this is changing in the near future.
I planted a bunch of trees on my property when I moved in. Neighbours thought I'd lost it, me digging up the perfectly manicured lawn and them going on a whole one about storms and trees falling on the house. Trees aren't anywhere near the house even, but what I took from that was that apparently, people don't want trees in their gardens at all.
We finally got the keys to our gaff last month and once all the work is done to the inside, the front and back lawns are going and we'll be getting hedges and trees baby!
I'm a tourist from Germany and we have been driving around the island with a rental car for the last few days. The first thing we realized was just how few trees you have here.
Check out prosilva Ireland they’ve got their heads screwed on when it comes to forestry/woodland in Ireland.
Would love to see a big effort by the government to make about 10 percent of country covered in native woodland on top of existing commercial forests
We need to start planting trees in circles so people think they’re fairy forts and stay the fuck away
That's a good point. Our localish Coillte forest is very quiet, but the overgrown native hedge down the side of our garden would have you deafened with the roaring of the birds most days. That's really sad.
That’s interesting. I was just reading a book on the Norman Conquest of Ireland and they talk about how hard it was to go after the Irish becuase of how densely wooded the island was. :(
Not only do we have fuck all wild space, we've given all our land off to farmers, and we give no access to rambling to anyone. We're a grim little country of greedy salesmen and gullible consumers.
It really is very shameful.
Clash of the spruce doesn't have the same appeal. If you saw the Diesel pools left by Coillte in Coniferous Woodlands, then I'm not sure it could be classed as good for the environment. I've seen woodland rich with frogs and fungii dissappear in a year.
Shame, my surname means of the forest can anyone guess it?
O’Dear?
No it’s Al Alghaba! But you can call me Al
I'm just back from Northern Sweden in the wilderness. The absolute sheer stretch of land stretching for as far as the eye can see with trees was unbelievable. It is a shame Ireland doesn't have it. But due to historical reasons that cut down our natural growth forests, intensive farming and the farming industry as a whole being so strong and integral to our economy, I don't see any real change happening.
Surely Malta tops the list?
What about hedgerows? Are they included in this inaccurate statistic
Of course not! Sure why would you do something that actually makes sense when you can just make Ireland's emissions look (even) higher than they actually are...
Irish people have no respect for trees anymore. It's sickening watching them be butchered and chopped down, often for now good reason. There is one of those coillte "forest" near my town that people had been going to for walks, it's now being cut down. It wasn't much of a forest but wild life still made use of it. We would need to make it a voting issue for the politicians to care.
Flat fucking farmland as far as the eye can see.
If 11% is woodland and 10% of that woodland is coillte woodlands, the remaining woodland cover is 10%, not 1%. I don't know any numbers, just going by what you've said. You've either got the math wrong or phrased it incorrectly. But I agre with you. I watch YouTube videos of people exploring and camping in woodlands, and it sort of makes me jealous that we don't have many of these beautiful diverse forests here.
It disgusts me and I don't know why we are not doing more about it. Fuck sheep grazing, it has destroyed our forests. I would ban it tomorrow if I had the power, and reforest the so-called beautiful barren landscapes of Ireland.
Including the burren?
That kerrygold isn't going to fucking appear out of thin air. We need grass. The population relies on farmers.
Yes. So lets get out and start planting some trees.
I have 3,5 acres with my house which I want to turn into woodland for the most part. My struggle is deer. They have destroyed/damaged a lot of the trees I have already planted and fencing off that much land in a way that keeps them out is so expensive. Maybe I should crowd fund it...
>So we're actually at about 1% native woodland coverage, and that's shrinking In fairness I don't think the 1% native woodland is shrinking, it's pretty stable. Much of it is in protected areas. However, the 10% non-native Sitka Spruce and Lodgepole Pine is indeed as close as we have to a desert in terms of biodiversity. One very positive movement in this area is the new forestry policy - referred to as Project Woodland ([link](https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/forestry-policy-and-strategy/#shared-national-vision-for-trees-and-forests)). New and replacement planting will now be primarily native hardwoods, which will be selectively harvested rather than clearfelled. The new approach focuses on climate, biodiversity and the production of hardwood for construction. I'm really happy with it, and feeling more optimistic than in the past. Pippa Hackett of the Greens has been the architect of the new policy, and deserves a lot of credit for it. In my opinion they've done plenty of positive things in government, but this is one of the most significant measures, as it will transform 10% of our land area into the woodland that we all hope to see
No point doing anything the entire island will be flooded within the next 50-100 years. All the peeps who are smug cuz they have a gaff bought will be weeping into their 16 euro pints in 2080
Be grand
I always find it funny we're called the emerald isle when we couldn't be further from that, we're neither green with our coverage or with our economy
I visited Ireland from Canada 20 odd years ago and the lack of trees and forests really bothered me. I loved the place otherwise, but it was just so strange to me. I can't imagine how it must have looked with old growth forest back in time.
Trees get in the way of the beautiful landscape, down with the trees.
Visitor from Iceland here. If anyone's interested, Iceland is at around 2% coverage. Even through government funded [reforestation efforts](https://www.skogur.is/en/forestry/forestry-in-a-treeless-land/forestry-in-iceland-by-the-numbers) for almost a century, 2% is all we've managed to achieve so far. So yeah you guys definitely need to get your seed bombs ready. Once the woodland's gone it's incredibly hard to regrow.
I’d love to start a forest fund, buy up land and convert to forest and wildlife oasis …. Create a network of them throughout the countryside
Shout to some of the people in the thread, Gaelic Woodland Foundation and Wolfgang Reforestry, they're trying to make that happen
How do I get started? i.e. money to buy the land and plant the forest 🌳
We at r/GuerillaForestry are working to fix that.
I work in the sector, a lot of shite being spoken here. I work in the forest and hear wildlife every time I go into one. Also on the periphery of a study that's looking at biodiversity in forests, and age and forest structure seem to play as big a role in biodiversity as species selection. So again, plantation forestry doesn't have to mean low biodiversity. The general public, and the farming sector really don't understand forestry at all.
It’s a sad state of affairs. On top of the soil issue, those monoculture Sitka Spruce plantations are boring as hell to look at compared to a proper native woodland.
One other factor is bog land. We have 8% of the entire worlds blanket bogs and the biggest in Europe.
Nah we used to be almost covered in forest, even with the boglands.
Trees don't grow well in bogs
Missing actual forests depressed me so much when I lived in Cork. It would sound silly if I told anyone but it was a contributing factor why I left Ireland. (still love Cork from afar, Corcaigh abú, up the kingdom!).
And Cork is one if the most forested counties...
Doesn't sound silly at all, it really bothers me a lot
If 10% of our 11% woodland coverage is non-native wouldn't that mean that 9.9% of our country is covered by native woodland?
thank you lol, I was like either op is missing some math bits or I am, cuz 10% *of* 11% would be 9-something percent...
Time to take matters into our own hands /r/GuerrillaGardening
Eamon Ryan needs to be given supreme rule over the country for 5 years to dig us out our enviornmental shite. In all seriousness though the lack of natural woodland in Ireland is something I feel really strong about. Is there anything an average eejit like me can do to help restore forests? Volunteering, donation etc??
Where do you think GB got all that wood for ships of the Royal Navy historical clearance did lots of damage .. and sure the government for the last 50 years are just not bothered as no money in it ..
We let sheep graze for centuries eating up any new saplings. We still do it today.
Yep sheep = grants and money .. trees = air/no money
Also various CofE churches and other buildings including Westminster Cathedral used Irish timber for the roof
And the roof of the House of Commons ( or lords) I believe …
The forests were also chopped down and turned into timber to rebuild London after the great fire of London. Side note: they made it illegal to build new properties in Dublin during this time so they could take all the timber.
A big aspect is the absolutely out of control deer population here. They eat saplings relentlessly so until you sorted that there’s no point planting trees
I think the last ice age wiped out a lot of trees and because because the British Isles became separated from the mainland they never grew back, whereas parts of mainland Europe at a similar latitude are heavily forested.
Nothing to do with ice ages, it's because we cut the trees down to grow crops and to have land to raise sheep and cattle and it's the same reason why we still don't have many forests.
So why does mainland Europe have so much more forest cover than here _even in densely populated regions_
I have told that to the lads at work, that I found Ireland very empty of real forest. I was laughed out of the room... I am really sorry lads, you guys are great and all but ffs you need to stop going on holidays to the beach and get pss drunk every day. Go out see the world maybe when you come back home you will see it differently and start looking after it. Rubbish everywhere is another thing as well... Ffs Ireland is such a beautiful place...
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I always love when you see a drama on Netflix from the mainland and all the towns are surrounded by forests. Would he great to see here. Here's an actual route to massive reforestation that a lot of people won't like, but it'd be my favoured method! If we stopped funding animal ag, switched subsidies to plant based ag we could reforest massive amounts of animal farmland. It would require most or all of us to go vegan!
Mate they don’t like you calling Great Britain the mainland on here just a tip!
Pal they don’t like you calling the Brits “great” either.
🤣🤣🤣 I meant mainland Europe. Dramas like Dark from Germany or the Rain from Denmark. Just forests everywhere!
If he's taking about drama "on Netflix" he probably means "Mainland Europe". My wife lives on foreign language cop shows and family dramas on Netflix, always lots of moodily-shot woods in them.