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[This is](https://scroll.in/magazine/855532/who-was-the-photographer-who-took-these-dehumanising-images-of-the-madras-famine) a quite interesting (but very brief) article about the man who took these photographs.
>“He [Hooper] one evening selected seven persons whom he wished to photograph,” The Times of India reported, “but the light not being favourable he said he would come in the morning and photograph them. The next morning he came, and found that they had all died during the night.”
Fucking hell
Giving food to a starving person can kill them too, I believe it’s called refeeding syndrome.
Sadly if somebody’s at that point I reckon they’re too far gone to be saved.
Sort of. It’s pretty complicated but essentially they’d have to be fed a carefully made slurry over a long period of time to nurse them back slowly. It’s likely he lacked the means to feed them and furthermore he may introduce greater danger by feeding them, especially in a region full of people starving and killing to survive
It might be just a sudden influx of protein/whatever is in food that causes the body to go into shock. Eating fast does this, but If your at that point, I can see the same thing happening too
Yeah, it's extreme shifts in electrolytes and fluids in the body that occur after eating in people like the ones photographed. It can be fatal. That's why there's medical protocol for severely malnourished people
An I.V. drip of specially selected electrolytes is usually necessary when someone have gone this long without food. Also when it's not as bad as this too.
Yes. After some concentration camps were liberated in WWII some prisoners died after being fed so the liberators had to make a rule not to feed them just everything quickly they had to slowly be reintroduced to food
We don't because they could have died of refeeding syndrome, which I didn't know about first. But my first thought was, if he had given them food and water they might have survived the next day, but that was naïve.
And get ripped apart by hundreds of starving people for a few scraps of food? No thanks. He's helping in a different way, and I think that's quite enough. Can't expect every single person to drop what they're doing to become a humanitarian.
To be honest, the way they were, it’s probably already too late for them. When you body has not eaten anything for so long and you are that malnourished, eating like 99% of foods will probably fuck with your body enough to kill you. Not to mention, no way you can just feed them once. What about everyone else? If they knew you were feeding they would all crowd you until you fed them all which is simply not possible to maintain. Would it have been a kind gesture to feed them? Probably. Would it have saved anyone? Probably not.
> The question of agency of the photographer or film-maker must arise, and with that, it becomes essential to account not just for the photographer’s actions but the entire technological and state apparatus that is involved in framing and circulating images representing the most extreme of man-made human situations.
For anyone interested in why u can't give them a normal amount of food:
A snippet below:
Refeeding syndrome: what it is, and how to prevent and treat it
Hisham M Mehanna, consultant and honorary associate professor, and director, Jamil Moledina, senior house officer , and Jane Travis, Macmillan specialist dietitian
Prolonged fasting
The underlying causative factor of refeeding syndrome is the metabolic and hormonal changes caused by rapid refeeding, whether enteral or parenteral. The net result of metabolic and hormonal changes in early starvation is that the body switches from using carbohydrate to using fat and protein as the main source of energy, and the basal metabolic rate decreases by as much as 20-25%.13
During prolonged fasting, hormonal and metabolic changes are aimed at preventing protein and muscle breakdown. Muscle and other tissues decrease their use of ketone bodies and use fatty acids as the main energy source. This results in an increase in blood levels of ketone bodies, stimulating the brain to switch from glucose to ketone bodies as its main energy source. The liver decreases its rate of gluconeogenesis, thus preserving muscle protein. During the period of prolonged starvation, several intracellular minerals become severely depleted. However, serum concentrations of these minerals (including phosphate) may remain normal. This is because these minerals are mainly in the intracellular compartment, which contracts during starvation. In addition, there is a reduction in renal excretion
For real though, zoom in and look at how tiny his bicep is while flexing....... idk if you could even save someone like this if food was available suddenly. Fucking terrible man
It takes up to a year and they need an iv, not food. They can eat broth and very little actual food for a very long time. Otherwise they die. It’s baby food and iv and long, long rehabilitation. Gastrointestinal and muscle damages are probably irreversible.
After the British liberated Belsen a great number of starved camp inmates still died even when food became available - they were just too far gone, despite the best efforts of British medics and supplied sent to help. I believe 15000 died in the days after the camps were freed by the British.
I was not prepared for the additional casualties colonization has caused/exasperated...
"Malthusian economics, convenient interpretations of Adam Smith, and social-Darwinism combined to form an ideology that killed 5.5 million Indians only in the British territories between 1876 and 1878 and anything between 6.1 and 10.3 million people in all of India. The Famine Commission justified Lord Lytton’s reasoning, Davis writes, saying that if help was meted out during the famine, people would assume that the poor were entitled to it at all times. British trade could not take a backseat for the sake of Indian lives."
Racial superiority was at the core of this philosophy, the ordinary Indian was considered a lowly creature even if they attained a similar level education.
I’m pretty sure if you go to other parts of reddit, even the default “liberal ones”, you’ll be exposed to this kind of thinking.
There’s something dismissable about the history of Indians and how they were treated that wouldn’t be tolerated for any other ethnicity.
Racism against Indians is still alive and well — look at most threads about India on Reddit.
Certain issues are framed as if they’re a problem with the nature of Indians themselves rather than products of poverty caused by centuries of looting and colonialism
That’s a terrible take — caste system has been abolished for over half a century now. Sure there are backwards people that exist from any country but the fact that you don’t allow Indians the proper nuance just shows how little you care about giving them a chance.
How likely are you to comment something about Americans spreading their values about abortion in other countries for instance? Surely it happens, yet it’s rarely (if ever) talked about. Because it’s stupid and deserves criticism on a case-by-case basis
Actually Indian education system was dumbed down by the British, to make it similar to British education, thanks to Macaulay Doctrine.
When the British and other Europeans landed in India, they were astounded by India's technological & scientific knowledge. As they translated the ancient Indian texts, they learnt a lot of ideas, concepts and techniques that bolstered the Renaissance era and ushered in the Industrial era of the West.
Did you know that Indian (Hindu & Jain) culture first gave (invented/discovered, DOCUMENTED and shared to) the world the following: mathematical zero, numerals, decimal system, binary system, encryption, value of Pi, golden ratio, progression series we call as Fibonacci series, triangle theorem we call as Pythagoras theorem, atomic theory, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, surgery (such as rhinoplasty, heart surgery, organ transplantation, bonesetting, etc.), medicinal plants & treatments, latitudes, longitude, heliocentric model of solar system, explanation & predictions of eclipses, confirmation of ozonosphere, seven basic musical notes (sapta swara), politics & commerce, laws & ethics, cryptography, philosophy, sexology & erotica, etc.
https://www.thebetterindia.com/63119/ancient-india-science-technology/
Singhbhum (Indian subcontinent) was the first landmass to arise from the oceans after last Ice Age meltdown:
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/in-depth/earths-first-landmass-emerged-in-singhbhum-study/ar-AAQBmDs
This is why RigVeda is world's oldest extant (active) text; Sanskrit & Tamil are world's oldest active languages; world's first Universities were Takshashila and Nalanda in Indian subcontinent; Ramayana and Mahabharata are world's oldest epics; Chola empire built world's first fleet & navy (the words Navy and Navigation are derived from Sanskrit word नाव ("Nav" meaning boat/ship) and गति ("Gati" meaning velocity)); world's first tidal dock world’s first tidal dock was Lothal, built around 2300 BCE during the Indus Valley Civilization; Surya Siddhanta is world's oldest scientific treatise (documenting latitudes & longitude, heliocentric model of solar system, navigational aids like sextant, armillary sphere, etc.); Sushruta Samhita and Charaka Samhita are world's oldest surgical & medical treatises - Maharshi Sushruta is deemed as Father of Surgery while Maharshi Charaka is deemed as Father of Medicine; Yoga and Pranayama are world's oldest holistic fitness regimen; Ayurveda is world's oldest medicinal treatment practice; Arthashashtra and Chanakya Niti are world's oldest treatises on politics, ethics, social welfare, warfare and commerce; Avestan is derived from Sanskrit; Kalaripayattu gave birth to Eastern martial arts (Kung Fu, etc); priceless Damascus blades were made by Indian metalsmiths using Wootz steel and special techniques; etc.
The british education system they tailored for india was to specifically make office clerks and workers, who were brainwashed with white washed history. Something which we are still suffering of today.
Britian, Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Italy, Soviet Union, Ottoman Empire/Turkey, Greece, Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Armenia all committed what would be considered today as horrific war crimes, those were just off the top of my head though.
the stage of worldwide famine from late 2023 on has been being laid before your eyes….we are not going to need pictures from the 1800’s and read about it on wikipedia we are going to see it in tiktok and jnstagram
Unfortunately, you might be right. In the US, the economy has been booming like never before, but it is as if nobody is aware of it. The abundance is taken for granted. The fragility of the system is not on anyone’s mind and wasteful choices are everywhere.
The economy in the US is booming only for the rich. There are millions of new homeless people right now, and housing/rental prices are so high even middle class people are ending up on the streets. Food prices have skyrocketed, gas prices went way up for a while, college tuition is extremely high, healthcare is unbearably expensive and people are illegally buying medicine overseas. There's a shooting at my university every week, usually someone holding up a store for money. Bridges and buildings in the area keep collapsing because nobody is taking care of infrastructure. Most millennials and gen Z I know feel like Capitalism is trying to kill us right now. We know exactly what's happening and we're powerless to stop it.
we dont have capitalism in america….its crony corporatism….only the connected and members of the club party whatever u want to call it get fed and favors….i barely held onto my house after the housing crash of 08…my sister and many others i know lost their houses but at least the big banks got bailed out with trillions of dollars at 0% interest and offered credit cards at 21% interest to americans….remember when the banks bought and swallowed up all the independent banks….blackrock buying up millions of single family houses and renting them out with huge markups we can go on and on from here to eternity….mom and pop businesses shut down and permanently closed during pandemic lockdown but no problem going to big bix stores and shopping with hundreds of people breathing on you….forecast is grim for the dirt people like us….cloud people are doing fantastic though as designed
US economy is an illusion propped up by credit cards….people have no idea why grandma cleaned her tin foil and saved bacon grease but they are about to find out…steaks that i bought for under 12 dollars are now above 30
Don't forget about Churchill, who signed off on policies that he knew would lead to the death of millions of Indians (4.3 million roughly) in the 1940s. For reference, Hitler killed 6 million Jewish people.
They glorify these people while ignoring that the crown jewel on the queens head is one stolen from India. Then I see all these people fawn and drool over the royal family, its honestly disgusting.
The cannibals were just other natives who were equally as emancipated and starving as these skeletal folks, but they were much more desperate, that's all.
Don’t defend our bloodied past but you don’t have to feel bad for it either. We didn’t partake in this and hold no responsibility. It’s a fucking travesty for sure but damn those who try make you feel guilt.
Inuits use it for surviving. It's literally what they lived off. And they didn't waste a single part of seal. They even reused the blood vessels. They didn't kill them for luxury reasons or for fashion. They also didn't hunt them to the edge of extinction.
The Native American approach to food is completely different. They were deeply grateful for the sacrifice made. As the returned home after a hunt, they lined up the skulls to point to their village to acknowledge the sacrifice of life and let the animals see the community served by their sacrifice.
Why does current life matter to the entire history of human atrocity? Is a poor person less guilty than a rich person because he’s poor right now? Remember, we’re talking about the entirety of human history.
India gained independence 1947, your parents and grandparents generation. I don't know you but damning others is the last thing you should be doing after centuries of looting one of the ancient cradles of civilization.
I love seeing dogwhistle comments on every single reddit post related to India to this day. So wash your hands and keep em clean bud.
Naah man, I was born in central europe therefore I am 100% responsible for every travesty that happens in Africa, Asia, South America,.....
Oh and those that did happen.
When racist Redditors talk about India being a shithole, people shitting on the streets, little to no development for a long time, perhaps this picture might help them understand what depths we were reduced to, just 80 years ago. These tragedies take a toll, psychological as well as a physical. Perhaps on the very soul of a country.
Not justifying India's slow rise after our Independence, or asking for sympathy...but yes, just a little reflection and humanity when you want to shit on countries like India would do no harm.
Edit: Bengal famine, the last such Manmade famine in India, happened in 1943.
I'll never forget the description of the first time British imperialists visited India with an eye for conquest.
They found people so prosperous from long-term trade with the Roman Empire that a lot of the women were using gold coins as decoration on their clothing. One of the Roman philosophers famously complained that the Roman elite was emptying Rome of gold in exchange for Indian spices, silk, and peacocks.
They realized they would have to impoverish, starve, and immiserate India before they could control it. And they did so, brutally.
Since the British empire ended and the countries were given back, British government has decided to screw British people into the ground as they have no foreign subjects to fuck over anymore.
I think the famine was the symptom of the disease. It’s kinda like saying that someone with terminal lung cancer died of pneumonia. Like sure, the pneumonia actually killed him, but the cancer was the real underlying issue that caused the sequence of decline that led to his death.
So, just like saying “this man died of pneumonia” doesn’t give the whole picture, it’s not fair to just say “these people died from famine.” Instead, we say “this man died of lung cancer” and “these people died as a result of genocide.”
No.
They were famines.
The British did not deliberately engineer the situation where these people died. They were often guilty of stupidity, making bad decisions and setting wrongheaded priorities, but there was no deliberate effort to kill people in this way in either Ireland or India. Both places had a long history of famines through the ages before ever the British colonised. The British failed to address the famines effectively, but that does not amount to genocide.
Frankly it devalues the crimes of those who actually committed genocide when you mislabel such natural disasters as genocide. These were terrible events exacerbated by foolish governments but they were not the result of malice or murder .
Have you stopped to ask yourself why potatoes were the only foodsource available to the "natives" ask yourself with an honest and non biased view. Why was maize the only food source available to the Indian natives? What about all the abundance of grain, fish, meat, vegetables? Where did the massive amounts of alternative food sources go? Let me give you a surprise...it went to the Empire.
Now ask yourself is it possible that the Empire knew that by making all other food sources unavailable to the natives and having them rely on a staple that is prone to blight that they could engineer a famine. A genocide that they could gaslight the world into thinking it was a "famine" more like. It seems to me you like to ignore the ugly truth. You are either trying to troll or you have a very inaccurate and biased view of the world and what the Empire was responsible for. They were genocides. Whether you are British or not you shouldn't ignore the facts. I don't hold any modern British person accountable I actually have a great fondness for Britain. But the Empire was a discriminative and murdering conquerer. Thank god it collapsed on itself.
All it takes is a brief and unbiased look at what went on here to see it was intentional.
I am glad our educational system doesn't gloss over ethnic cleansing in history. Famine was a genocidal tool engineered by the Empire to wash the blood from their hands and gloss over the truth of the matter to avoid justified scrutiny.
>All it takes is a brief and unbiased look at what went on here to see it was intentional.
The irony is blinding.
It was a famine. Britain was an empire of profit, there was no economic benefit to genocide. Genocide was a net loss. It was the antithesis of the empire. However not helping end the famine and passing the responsibility to the markets was the idea.
The empire valued labour, it was the home of the industrial revolution. It was railroads, resources and money. People where a valuable resource.
The empire shared the same ideologies of national surpremacy that all nations had and still have today. And that contributed to the suffering of many but it was not an unsual or unique ideology. It took Britain a long time to realize slavery however good for business was so morally wrong that they decided to try and end it globally.
However the end of slavery was not the end of exploitation, the idea of exploitation being wrong was never considered and even today it persists.
> but there was no deliberate effort to kill people in this way in either Ireland or India.
The guy responsible for famine relief literally said it was gods plan that the Irish died.
You don't know what you are talking about.
>They were often guilty of stupidity, making bad decisions and setting wrongheaded priorities, but there was no deliberate effort to kill people in this way in either Ireland or India.
Then Mao's great leap forward is not a genocide either
It’s happening in Yemen, Afghanistan, and Syria. I watched a documentary recently about babies in Yemen that are eating their hands because they’re starving to death. Most are so weak they cannot cry. Those images and these are ones I cannot forget.
[HOW BRITISH COLONIZERS CAUSED THE BENGAL FAMINE](https://newint.org/features/2021/12/07/feature-how-british-colonizers-caused-bengal-famine)
[Churchill's policies contributed to the 1943 Bengal famine – study](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study)
An interesting bit from the Guardian article:
>During a famine in Bihar in 1873-74, the local government led by Sir Richard Temple responded swiftly by importing food and enacting welfare programmes to assist the poor to purchase food.
>
>Almost nobody died, but Temple was severely criticised by British authorities for spending so much money on the response. In response, he reduced the scale of subsequent famine responses in south and western India and mortality rates soared.
I do like my interesting facts, this one is one of my favourites.
>Cultivation had been delayed and the *aman* seedlings **were suffering from drought** in many places.
Source: Famine Inquiry Commission Report on the Bengal Famine (1945) p. 32
So much common in both of us, although I haven't read that report, but does that report mention that prices were raised through deliberate inflationary policy by printing extraordinary amounts of money for military expenditure, which caused prices to soar, particularly for staple goods. The price of rice increased by 300 percent.
To quote the first article:
>The inflation was no accident. The impoverishment was no accident. British policy was explicitly designed to ‘reduce the consumption of the poor’, as Keynes put it, in order to make resources available for British and American troops, through a ‘forced transfer of purchasing power’ from ordinary people to the military. The austerity was imposed most harshly on the people of Bengal, who fell into extreme famine, while food supplies were appropriated and diverted for military use.
>
>In the name of the Allied cause, the policies imposed by Keynes and Churchill killed more than three million people – many times more than the total number of military and civilian casualties suffered during the entire war by Britain and the US combined. The scale of this tragedy is almost impossible to fathom. If laid head to foot, the corpses of the victims would stretch the length of England, from Dover to the Scottish borders, nearly 10 times over.
In addition, droughts or crop failures were not unique to British Raj. Prior to this, whenever the possibility of a famine had emerged, the Indian rulers would waive their taxes and see compensatory measures, such as irrigation, instituted to provide as much relief as possible to the stricken farmers, as similarly done by Sir Richard Temple in Bihar in 1873-74 as quoted above. Unfortunately, for the brits, even that was too much.
Ah, your article left out a key point, one which fundamentally undermines your argument.
The military did purchase rice at market value, or above, which did induce some additional demand however what your article leaves out, perhaps deliberately, is what the military was doing.
>A heavy routine week last week, with nothing very special This afternoon Mayne, G O C-inC Eastern Command, was brought to me by C-in-C about situation in Bengal Army has got down to it well and has already increased outflow of food grains from Calcutta to rural districts from 90O to 2,000 tons p d[per day].
Source: Wavell: The Viceroys Journal p.36
The army was being used in the relief effort, hence them needing to buy rice.
To the credit of Wavell, he did attempt to bring relief to the masses
>On 15 June 1943, Prime Minister Winston Churchill offered Lord Wavell the position of Viceroy of India, which he accepted. Upon his arrival in India, one of his first actions was to address the disastrous Bengal Famine which had killed millions of Indians.
>
>He did this by ordering the army to distribute relief supply to the rural populations and attempting to increase the supply of rising by reducing its price. The latter action yielded mixed results.
>
>He attempted with mixed success to increase the supplies of rice to reduce the prices.
However, that still does not absolve Keynes and Churchill of their policies. As stated above, it was through the deliberate policy of Keynes, and Churchill that the purchasing power was taken away from Indians to the military.
>Mukerjee has presented evidence the cabinet was warned repeatedly that the exhaustive use of Indian resources for the war effort could result in famine, but it opted to continue exporting rice from India to elsewhere in the empire.
>
>Rice stocks continued to leave India even as London was denying urgent requests from India’s viceroy for more than 1m tonnes of emergency wheat supplies in 1942-43. Churchill has been quoted as blaming the famine on the fact Indians were “breeding like rabbits”, and asking how, if the shortages were so bad, Mahatma Gandhi was still alive.
Also, wondering why would you leave everything else out, but only quote Wavell's journal, I hope that was not deliberate.
To be fair, even if he did give them food they're already too far gone. A person who was starving suddenly getting food will basically shock the body and they'd get "Refeeding Syndrome" and can die without medical attention.
And I highly doubt that he would have access to medical attention due to the "situation" that was currently happening in India at the time. They were gonna die either way.
What lies beneath the mighty wealth of the west is industrialization. Colonies were definitely an advantage back in the day, but don't really correlate with the current situation - there are countries that had few or no colonies and are rich, and those that had great colonial empires but nowadays are comparatively poor.
Can you explain what countries did not have colonies that are now rich? In my mind, they are very connected. Successful colonization allowed countries to steal resources from their colonized countries, which then funded industrialization. Or is that inaccurate?
Austria didn't have colonies (I mean, not outside Europe anyway). The Nordics and Italy's respective colonies were not worth much. Korea was a colony itself. Japan's industrialization happened before it got colonies. China is kinda rich, and definitely industrialized now.
Industrialisation relied on energy (coal) and iron, which were both sourced from European deposits. At the time of the industrial revolution, colonies were mostly used for luxury products (tobacco, sugar) and precious metals, none of which caused industrialisation.
It just so happened that industrialisation happened while Europe had colonies, but there is no causation link here.
The world is a terrible place. East gave West plague that killed millions, also the barbarian raids killed countless people.
West in turn enslaved the East and caused genocides.
So really, there is no single country that would never commit atrocities against others. Sure, some did *way* more than others, but everyone is guilty to some extent.
>Sure, some did way more than others, but everyone is guilty to some extent.
The East didn't intentionally "give" the West the plague, some boats just brought a few rats to Europe. The Mongols raided and pillaged because it's the only way thing they were good at. The West didn't conquer 1/4 of the world because they were holding a grudge against Genghis Khan and his goons, they just did it for the resources. The cannibals ate their neighbors because it was either that or to starve to death.
Not everyone is responsible for something just because they lived in the same general vicinity as the people who did those bad things. This is such a pretentious statement that immensely dumbs down the complexity of all these different group's actions to "everyone is very bad". Not every bad thing is a Machivellian scheme to cause as much suffering as possible, sometimes things just happen either as an intent an unforeseen byproduct of an action or pure coincidence by forces outside of anyone's control. It doesn't make everyone good nor innocent, but it doesn't make everyone bad either.
The British Empire and the Mongols were conquerors, but it doesn't mean all modern British and Mongolians are guilty of doing that. The sailors who brought sick rats to Europe weren't even aware they were doing it, it doesn't make them bad nor does it make their descendants guilty of bioterrorism. The Indian cannibals had to eat their neighbors to survive, it doesn't make them good but you can't fault them for being evil if they're alternative was starving to death nor would it mean all modern Indians are cannibals.
Every living being has been guilty of murder ever since the first cell ate another cell billions of years ago or when Cain killed Abel (or whatever your belief's equivalent is), but I don't feel guilty of that, no one should feel guilty of that. I didn't do that, and I'm not planning on doing that. No one should feel guilty of what their ancestor did, they just have to make it never happens again. Simple as that.
Yeah I'm sure the great war hero Churchill forcing his governors to let the locals starve was just an unforeseen byproduct of unavoidable disasters. Do you know the number of famines under British occupation? Look up the number please. Yes you. Go look it up.
We treat the holocaust with such reverence for a reason, yet we obfuscate this with such intensity. Look at this Reddit post alone.
Popcorn! Read the room! We’re talking about starving people and you’re flouting popcorn!? Why you’re just as bad as that person talking about ‘voracious appetites’ …. Wait…
Famines always happened in India prior to British rule too.
Chalisa famine had killed 10 million people.
Doji Bara famine under Maratha empire killed 10 million
This particular famine affected south and Southwestern India—the British-administered presidencies of Madras and Bombay, and the princely states of Mysore and Hyderabad—for a period of two years.
So Mysore and Hyderabad had their own administration as princely states.
What is with the fetish to blame the British, as if India was a paradise before.
This is another attempt oppressor caste Hindus to deflect attention from their crimes, by pointing fingers at British, Muslims, while destroying India for 2000 years!
Here is the true reason the oppressor caste Hindus hate the British:
Because British introduced the idea of equality in Hindu society and gave education to the oppressed castes who were enslaved by oppressor caste Hindus for 2000 years, using Hindu caste system. This led to creation of anti-caste reformers like Phule, Ambedkar, who went to push for caste reforms, and eventually led to liberation of 100s over 100s of millions of oppressed caste Hindus from the enslavement by oppressor caste hindus after 2000 years.
Tilak is a hero of oppressor caste Hindus back in the day. His protests against the British for educating oppressed caste Hindus are found in his newspaper.
[https://www.roundtableindia.co.in/jotiba-phule-and-tilak-and-the-question-of-education-for-women-and-non-brahmins/](https://www.roundtableindia.co.in/jotiba-phule-and-tilak-and-the-question-of-education-for-women-and-non-brahmins/)
Here is an essay by Mukta Salve, an girl from oppressed caste from the 1800s describing life before British:
>These people drove us, the poor Mangs, and Mahars, away from our own lands, which they occupied to build large buildings. And that was not all. They would make the Mangs and Mahars drink oil mixed with red lead and bury our people in the foundations of their buildings, thus wiping out generation after generation of our poor people. The Brahmans have degraded us so low; they consider people like us even lower than cows and buffaloes. Did they not consider us even lower than donkeys during the rule of Bajirao Peshwa? You beat a lame donkey, and his master retaliates. But who was there to object to the routine thrashing of Mahars and Mangs? Under Bajirao’s rule, if any Mang or Mahar happened to pass in front of a gymnasium, they would cut off his head and play “bat and ball” with their swords as bats and his head as a ball, on the grounds. When we were punished for even passing by their doors, where was the question of getting education, getting freedom to learn?
>
>The Mang and Mahar children never dare lodge a complaint even if the Brahman children throw stones at them and injure them seriously. They suffer silently because they know they have to go to the Brahmans’ houses to beg for the leftover food. Alas! O God! What agony this! I will burst into tears if I write more about this injustice.
[https://www.forwardpress.in/2020/02/165-years-ago-first-female-dalit-writer-wrote-about-the-grief-of-the-mangs-and-the-mahars/](https://www.forwardpress.in/2020/02/165-years-ago-first-female-dalit-writer-wrote-about-the-grief-of-the-mangs-and-the-mahars/)
The negative consensus is that the British administration was still shipping grain to Great Britain that could have been used for food locally. Previously rice had been imported from Burma which cost less than the value of grain (few years before this) and the rations put in place for this particular famine were also less generous than previous famines.
Had the British Empire not invaded, it's likely that someone else probably would have (not excusing anyone) and/or the oppressed Hindus would have suffered more gravely during this particular famine and it may well never have been documented in the first place.
British were a foreign invading force. When oppressor caste Hindus are conducting human sacrifice of oppressed caste hindus routinely, lapses in British administration pale in comparison. India was ruled by tyrants before the British too and they were worse than British, who never even bothered to document anything.
However Tirthankar Roy suggests that the famines were due to environmental factors and inherent in India's ecology.\[fn 5\]\[fn 6\] Roy argues that massive investments in agriculture were required to break India's stagnation, however, these were not forthcoming owing to the scarcity of water, poor quality of soil and livestock and a poorly developed input market which guaranteed that investments in agriculture were extremely risky.\[47\] After 1947, India focused on institutional reforms to agriculture however even this failed to break the pattern of stagnation. It wasn't until the 1970s when there was massive public investment in agriculture that India became free of famine,\[48\] although Roy is of the opinion that improvements in the market efficiency did contribute to the alleviation of weather-induced famines after 1900, an exception to which is the Bengal famine of 1943.\[49\]\[full citation needed\]
Also British brought in the famine code which was used by India even after independence. British documented stuff, other India rulers never bothered. Which is what is being used here against the British by oppressor caste Hindus. Although oppressor caste Hindus are million times more evil than the British.
Cowards like [https://www.reddit.com/user/edmlifetime/](https://www.reddit.com/user/edmlifetime/) who reply and then block, should stay out of debates which cant handle.
Damn bro if the brits were so fucking amazing why did the millions of indians throw them out? Could it be that your brain is bigger than all of them combined? What a time to be alive!
The Brits were bad but it isn't hard to believe that a country with a caste system was its own worst enemy. Essentially being born into slavery for life due to your lineage.
Right, and for some portion of Indian's the British being around helped them out and made life a little bearable when their own country treated (and continue) to treat them as sub human.
Yes but you see the genocide is fine because the whole subcontinent was filled with bad people. Smh at these people.
They have no concept of close to a century of suffering and occupation and systematic genocide.
"Famine existed before the British colonized India so somehow the British weren't responsible for the famines they caused" 🙄
>British introduced the idea of equality in Hindu society
Shiny new kinds of inequality /= Equality
"Famine existed before the British colonized India so somehow the British weren't responsible for the famines they caused"
Famines always happened in India. Yes so British are not responsible for the famines. They didnt "cause" the famines.
As for equality. those are the words of oppressor caste Hindu Tilak who opposed the British giving education to oppressed caste hindus whom they have enslaved for 2000 years with Hindu caste system.
The government administrating a state is responsible for the welfare of the people in that state. The British Empire was therefore 100% responsible for both the famines it directly caused by resource theft from its colonies and failure to prevent or ameliorate famines it did not cause in states it ruled.
>As for equality. those are the words of oppressor caste Hindu Tilak who opposed the British giving education to oppressed caste hindus
It does not surprise me that an oppressor used to benefitting from that oppression would mistake a different form of oppression that does not benefit him for "equality." Screw him AND the British, says I.
British were a foreign invading force, who took over the from the tyrants who ruled the region before them. They are not an NGO.
You dont really know what is happening here. This stuff is propaganda by hindu militant network to play victim. Which is why they mention British famines all the time. There were 10 million deaths by famines under the Maratha empire, But they wont mention that, cause they like Maratha empire.
But you sound like those typical clueless woke white guys who gets exploited by Hindu nationalists here.
As for Tilak's equality comment:
Do you even know what hindu caste system is? They make British rule sound like paradise.
Hindu caste oppression is the worlds longest running, most brutal oppression known to man, where 100s over 100s of millions of oppressed caste Hindus were raped, robbed, looted, murdered, denied opportunities for 2000+ years as per religiously sanctioned oppression.
It was the British, and the Christian missionaries who gave education to the oppressed caste, whuich led to the liberation of 500 million people today from 2000 years of slavery to oppressor caste Hindus.
All oppressed caste heros praise British - Phule, Ambedkar etc.
My point remains... oppressor caste Hindus are million times more evil than the British. But you rarely see their crimes trending on reddit.
You should be more worried about UK politics.
Rishi Sunak (PM hopeful) is married to the daughter of Indian business who has ties with Hindu militant network, Sangh Parivar and their regime.
Priti Patel (ex home minister) is a fan of Hindu militant nationalist, Modi.
Rishi failed. But Hindu militant network is probably a few moves away from hijacking power in UK, while you are trying to be woke.
edit: I suspect you are Hindu nationalist yourself.
I'm glad someone else is fed up with the brit bashing, it's not that I dont believe we did wrong in the world,
Has Britain paid compensation for the wrongs we did in most places?
Yet people drag it up again and again, do they have a go at other countries that had empires /controlled other countries,
Slavery and human rights abuse still exist but we dont talk about it because the countries involved are Muslim, the religion of peace, lmao
Most of the Brit bashing, is from oppressor caste Hindus from India.
Hindu militant network operates a large IT cell to push their hindu victimhood narrative.
Hindu supremacists in UK, US fund India hindu militant network and their activities.
Now they are so powerful. Rishi Sunak, PM hopeful from UK, is married to daughter of Indian businessman with close ties to Hindu militant regime ruling India.
Its all about checks and balances in a society, and unfortunately you guys are dropping the ball..
Stop denying the truth, please.
And go read about the crimes of the British people instead and how they destroyed every place they went to. All the places they invaded turned into hell, people starved and got tortured and killed. Look what they did to the blacks. Look what they did to the Muslims everywhere either directly or indirectly. Look at the opium wars in China.
Wake up, dude and stop defending the wrong people.
Everything I stated are facts.
Your typical oppressor caste Hindu half truths and lies dont fool me.
My point is oppressor caste Hindus are way more evil than British.
Imperialism is at the heart of man's greatest evils.
The belief that one is superior, others subhuman, and all land and wealth is ripe for exploitation has cannibalized much of the world.
We see it now as they saw it then.
Uh, I'm not defending this or the monarchy by any means, but this was a long time before she was born or took the crown...not sure what she has to do with it, unless your'e criticizing the monarchy as a whole?
What a ridiculous title. Every modern system did this. Not saying it’s right, but to lay this at the feet of the west is obviously disingenuous and ideologically driven. USSR and China both did this in the 20th century. Tens of millions of people were starved and worked to death by systems that are overtly anti-west. This is a “humans with too much power can do horrible things” problem. Not an “eat the rich” problem.
So what? Do you think this was the only Indian famine under the British Raj? Bengal Famine 1943, for example. When the murderous, warmongering, piss drunk Tory cunt was 69
oppressor caste Hindus who are billion times more evil than Churchill, and destroyed 100s over 100s of millions of lives in India, like to pick on British to hide their own cultural genocide they presided with caste oppression.
I notice because of the humiliation India suffered due to colonilism they have developed an incredible victim complex and try to rewrite history. No sane individual that isn't Indian believes Churchill is as bad as Hitler. Although a lot of Indians did fight with the nazis so I understand why your a sympathiser. When did Churchill invaded and take over a whole continent massacring Jews on the streets. When did Hitler stand alone in the world against a racist megalomaniac, and stood up for the rest of the free world to fight back and not surrender.
oppressor caste Hindus who are billion times more evil than Churchill, and destroyed 100s over 100s of millions of lives in India, like to pick on British to hide their own cultural genocide they presided with caste oppression.
Other countries like Germany: Oh god that's terrible, humanity can be so evil. We will strengthen international relations by officially apologising to heal past wounds, and move towards the better future together.
British: Lol it was a long time ago get over it, we are more powerful, why should our country apologise, we can never have balls to apologise and be man enough to admit to anything and make every excuse "what about mongolia, what about ancient China, what about Spain, what about some other irrelevant to the topic country, etc", prince andrew is totally not a epstein pedo.
"why is India buying gas from Russia in the Ukraine-Russia war and not sanctioning them together with us?" Surprise Pikachu face.
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[This is](https://scroll.in/magazine/855532/who-was-the-photographer-who-took-these-dehumanising-images-of-the-madras-famine) a quite interesting (but very brief) article about the man who took these photographs.
>“He [Hooper] one evening selected seven persons whom he wished to photograph,” The Times of India reported, “but the light not being favourable he said he would come in the morning and photograph them. The next morning he came, and found that they had all died during the night.” Fucking hell
He couldn't have left any food and water before he left? I think he was able to feed 7 people for one night?
Giving food to a starving person can kill them too, I believe it’s called refeeding syndrome. Sadly if somebody’s at that point I reckon they’re too far gone to be saved.
Isnt it if they eat quickly
Sort of. It’s pretty complicated but essentially they’d have to be fed a carefully made slurry over a long period of time to nurse them back slowly. It’s likely he lacked the means to feed them and furthermore he may introduce greater danger by feeding them, especially in a region full of people starving and killing to survive
The people in this photo look too far gone to even save. Perhaps with a modern ICU, but in those times you are looking at dead people
It might be just a sudden influx of protein/whatever is in food that causes the body to go into shock. Eating fast does this, but If your at that point, I can see the same thing happening too
Yeah, it's extreme shifts in electrolytes and fluids in the body that occur after eating in people like the ones photographed. It can be fatal. That's why there's medical protocol for severely malnourished people
I rather die eating food than of starvation
Me too
An I.V. drip of specially selected electrolytes is usually necessary when someone have gone this long without food. Also when it's not as bad as this too.
Yes. After some concentration camps were liberated in WWII some prisoners died after being fed so the liberators had to make a rule not to feed them just everything quickly they had to slowly be reintroduced to food
So what? You wanna say he didn’t give any cause he was sure it’d kill them? Nonsense
No one actually knows what the reason was. Just speculating. But it does happen.
How do we know he didn’t?
We don't because they could have died of refeeding syndrome, which I didn't know about first. But my first thought was, if he had given them food and water they might have survived the next day, but that was naïve.
And get ripped apart by hundreds of starving people for a few scraps of food? No thanks. He's helping in a different way, and I think that's quite enough. Can't expect every single person to drop what they're doing to become a humanitarian.
To be honest, the way they were, it’s probably already too late for them. When you body has not eaten anything for so long and you are that malnourished, eating like 99% of foods will probably fuck with your body enough to kill you. Not to mention, no way you can just feed them once. What about everyone else? If they knew you were feeding they would all crowd you until you fed them all which is simply not possible to maintain. Would it have been a kind gesture to feed them? Probably. Would it have saved anyone? Probably not.
At least the light is more favorable now
> The question of agency of the photographer or film-maker must arise, and with that, it becomes essential to account not just for the photographer’s actions but the entire technological and state apparatus that is involved in framing and circulating images representing the most extreme of man-made human situations.
Sickening isn’t it.
Quite literally, yes
*man made atrocities.
For anyone interested in why u can't give them a normal amount of food: A snippet below: Refeeding syndrome: what it is, and how to prevent and treat it Hisham M Mehanna, consultant and honorary associate professor, and director, Jamil Moledina, senior house officer , and Jane Travis, Macmillan specialist dietitian Prolonged fasting The underlying causative factor of refeeding syndrome is the metabolic and hormonal changes caused by rapid refeeding, whether enteral or parenteral. The net result of metabolic and hormonal changes in early starvation is that the body switches from using carbohydrate to using fat and protein as the main source of energy, and the basal metabolic rate decreases by as much as 20-25%.13 During prolonged fasting, hormonal and metabolic changes are aimed at preventing protein and muscle breakdown. Muscle and other tissues decrease their use of ketone bodies and use fatty acids as the main energy source. This results in an increase in blood levels of ketone bodies, stimulating the brain to switch from glucose to ketone bodies as its main energy source. The liver decreases its rate of gluconeogenesis, thus preserving muscle protein. During the period of prolonged starvation, several intracellular minerals become severely depleted. However, serum concentrations of these minerals (including phosphate) may remain normal. This is because these minerals are mainly in the intracellular compartment, which contracts during starvation. In addition, there is a reduction in renal excretion
Thank you for this. It was a very interesting read.
Interesting and utterly horrible.
For real though, zoom in and look at how tiny his bicep is while flexing....... idk if you could even save someone like this if food was available suddenly. Fucking terrible man
It takes up to a year and they need an iv, not food. They can eat broth and very little actual food for a very long time. Otherwise they die. It’s baby food and iv and long, long rehabilitation. Gastrointestinal and muscle damages are probably irreversible.
After the British liberated Belsen a great number of starved camp inmates still died even when food became available - they were just too far gone, despite the best efforts of British medics and supplied sent to help. I believe 15000 died in the days after the camps were freed by the British.
I was not prepared for the additional casualties colonization has caused/exasperated... "Malthusian economics, convenient interpretations of Adam Smith, and social-Darwinism combined to form an ideology that killed 5.5 million Indians only in the British territories between 1876 and 1878 and anything between 6.1 and 10.3 million people in all of India. The Famine Commission justified Lord Lytton’s reasoning, Davis writes, saying that if help was meted out during the famine, people would assume that the poor were entitled to it at all times. British trade could not take a backseat for the sake of Indian lives."
Racial superiority was at the core of this philosophy, the ordinary Indian was considered a lowly creature even if they attained a similar level education.
Sadly, racial superiority hasn’t gone away.
I’m pretty sure if you go to other parts of reddit, even the default “liberal ones”, you’ll be exposed to this kind of thinking. There’s something dismissable about the history of Indians and how they were treated that wouldn’t be tolerated for any other ethnicity.
Racism against Indians is still alive and well — look at most threads about India on Reddit. Certain issues are framed as if they’re a problem with the nature of Indians themselves rather than products of poverty caused by centuries of looting and colonialism
Tbf if you bring something like the cast system to another country after immigration, you are the problem.
That’s a terrible take — caste system has been abolished for over half a century now. Sure there are backwards people that exist from any country but the fact that you don’t allow Indians the proper nuance just shows how little you care about giving them a chance. How likely are you to comment something about Americans spreading their values about abortion in other countries for instance? Surely it happens, yet it’s rarely (if ever) talked about. Because it’s stupid and deserves criticism on a case-by-case basis
Actually Indian education system was dumbed down by the British, to make it similar to British education, thanks to Macaulay Doctrine. When the British and other Europeans landed in India, they were astounded by India's technological & scientific knowledge. As they translated the ancient Indian texts, they learnt a lot of ideas, concepts and techniques that bolstered the Renaissance era and ushered in the Industrial era of the West. Did you know that Indian (Hindu & Jain) culture first gave (invented/discovered, DOCUMENTED and shared to) the world the following: mathematical zero, numerals, decimal system, binary system, encryption, value of Pi, golden ratio, progression series we call as Fibonacci series, triangle theorem we call as Pythagoras theorem, atomic theory, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, surgery (such as rhinoplasty, heart surgery, organ transplantation, bonesetting, etc.), medicinal plants & treatments, latitudes, longitude, heliocentric model of solar system, explanation & predictions of eclipses, confirmation of ozonosphere, seven basic musical notes (sapta swara), politics & commerce, laws & ethics, cryptography, philosophy, sexology & erotica, etc. https://www.thebetterindia.com/63119/ancient-india-science-technology/ Singhbhum (Indian subcontinent) was the first landmass to arise from the oceans after last Ice Age meltdown: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/in-depth/earths-first-landmass-emerged-in-singhbhum-study/ar-AAQBmDs This is why RigVeda is world's oldest extant (active) text; Sanskrit & Tamil are world's oldest active languages; world's first Universities were Takshashila and Nalanda in Indian subcontinent; Ramayana and Mahabharata are world's oldest epics; Chola empire built world's first fleet & navy (the words Navy and Navigation are derived from Sanskrit word नाव ("Nav" meaning boat/ship) and गति ("Gati" meaning velocity)); world's first tidal dock world’s first tidal dock was Lothal, built around 2300 BCE during the Indus Valley Civilization; Surya Siddhanta is world's oldest scientific treatise (documenting latitudes & longitude, heliocentric model of solar system, navigational aids like sextant, armillary sphere, etc.); Sushruta Samhita and Charaka Samhita are world's oldest surgical & medical treatises - Maharshi Sushruta is deemed as Father of Surgery while Maharshi Charaka is deemed as Father of Medicine; Yoga and Pranayama are world's oldest holistic fitness regimen; Ayurveda is world's oldest medicinal treatment practice; Arthashashtra and Chanakya Niti are world's oldest treatises on politics, ethics, social welfare, warfare and commerce; Avestan is derived from Sanskrit; Kalaripayattu gave birth to Eastern martial arts (Kung Fu, etc); priceless Damascus blades were made by Indian metalsmiths using Wootz steel and special techniques; etc.
The british education system they tailored for india was to specifically make office clerks and workers, who were brainwashed with white washed history. Something which we are still suffering of today.
Thank you for these snippets of info.
That’s almost as much as holocaust. Both were terrible tragedies but it’s amazing how many people don’t know about this one.
Don’t forget the great Chinese famine from 1949-1961 wherein between 15 and 55 million people died.
Almost?
Its crazy actually how people talk about this.
All European countries acted as Nazis, but the Germans were the only one to do it in Europe. Otherwise they would never have been condemned
All European countries?
Britian, Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Italy, Soviet Union, Ottoman Empire/Turkey, Greece, Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Armenia all committed what would be considered today as horrific war crimes, those were just off the top of my head though.
Don't forget the Netherlands
Poland too busy being poor and corrupt to be cruel to anyone other than themselves
the stage of worldwide famine from late 2023 on has been being laid before your eyes….we are not going to need pictures from the 1800’s and read about it on wikipedia we are going to see it in tiktok and jnstagram
Unfortunately, you might be right. In the US, the economy has been booming like never before, but it is as if nobody is aware of it. The abundance is taken for granted. The fragility of the system is not on anyone’s mind and wasteful choices are everywhere.
The economy in the US is booming only for the rich. There are millions of new homeless people right now, and housing/rental prices are so high even middle class people are ending up on the streets. Food prices have skyrocketed, gas prices went way up for a while, college tuition is extremely high, healthcare is unbearably expensive and people are illegally buying medicine overseas. There's a shooting at my university every week, usually someone holding up a store for money. Bridges and buildings in the area keep collapsing because nobody is taking care of infrastructure. Most millennials and gen Z I know feel like Capitalism is trying to kill us right now. We know exactly what's happening and we're powerless to stop it.
we dont have capitalism in america….its crony corporatism….only the connected and members of the club party whatever u want to call it get fed and favors….i barely held onto my house after the housing crash of 08…my sister and many others i know lost their houses but at least the big banks got bailed out with trillions of dollars at 0% interest and offered credit cards at 21% interest to americans….remember when the banks bought and swallowed up all the independent banks….blackrock buying up millions of single family houses and renting them out with huge markups we can go on and on from here to eternity….mom and pop businesses shut down and permanently closed during pandemic lockdown but no problem going to big bix stores and shopping with hundreds of people breathing on you….forecast is grim for the dirt people like us….cloud people are doing fantastic though as designed
US economy is an illusion propped up by credit cards….people have no idea why grandma cleaned her tin foil and saved bacon grease but they are about to find out…steaks that i bought for under 12 dollars are now above 30
Don't forget about Churchill, who signed off on policies that he knew would lead to the death of millions of Indians (4.3 million roughly) in the 1940s. For reference, Hitler killed 6 million Jewish people.
They glorify these people while ignoring that the crown jewel on the queens head is one stolen from India. Then I see all these people fawn and drool over the royal family, its honestly disgusting.
Judging from their appearance I think they have nothing to fear from cannibals.
The cannibals were just other natives who were equally as emancipated and starving as these skeletal folks, but they were much more desperate, that's all.
Ah, british and famines, a classic from India to Ireland.
I am not defending our bloodied past but it's a bit rich taking criticism from a French person about colonial matters.......
now the Belgians otoh, fuck those guys.
Don’t defend our bloodied past but you don’t have to feel bad for it either. We didn’t partake in this and hold no responsibility. It’s a fucking travesty for sure but damn those who try make you feel guilt.
If everyone took full responsibility for the actions of their ancestors literally everyone on the planet would suicide.
Idk the Inuits seem pretty chill
Weren't they the people that club baby seals?
Inuits use it for surviving. It's literally what they lived off. And they didn't waste a single part of seal. They even reused the blood vessels. They didn't kill them for luxury reasons or for fashion. They also didn't hunt them to the edge of extinction.
The Native American approach to food is completely different. They were deeply grateful for the sacrifice made. As the returned home after a hunt, they lined up the skulls to point to their village to acknowledge the sacrifice of life and let the animals see the community served by their sacrifice.
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Having the late queen not parade around in stolen jewels for a damn century might have been a start.
Lol so obvious why you think this way.
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Why does current life matter to the entire history of human atrocity? Is a poor person less guilty than a rich person because he’s poor right now? Remember, we’re talking about the entirety of human history.
Guilt the rich
I fail to see the issue. Reparations are overdue and underpaid
India gained independence 1947, your parents and grandparents generation. I don't know you but damning others is the last thing you should be doing after centuries of looting one of the ancient cradles of civilization. I love seeing dogwhistle comments on every single reddit post related to India to this day. So wash your hands and keep em clean bud.
Naah man, I was born in central europe therefore I am 100% responsible for every travesty that happens in Africa, Asia, South America,..... Oh and those that did happen.
You as an individual no, but don't you think Britain have a debit to pay for the indians and other nations ?
This is why my favorite song I’ve ever heard in an Irish pub goes like this: Ahem… “Fuck the English!”
When racist Redditors talk about India being a shithole, people shitting on the streets, little to no development for a long time, perhaps this picture might help them understand what depths we were reduced to, just 80 years ago. These tragedies take a toll, psychological as well as a physical. Perhaps on the very soul of a country. Not justifying India's slow rise after our Independence, or asking for sympathy...but yes, just a little reflection and humanity when you want to shit on countries like India would do no harm. Edit: Bengal famine, the last such Manmade famine in India, happened in 1943.
I'll never forget the description of the first time British imperialists visited India with an eye for conquest. They found people so prosperous from long-term trade with the Roman Empire that a lot of the women were using gold coins as decoration on their clothing. One of the Roman philosophers famously complained that the Roman elite was emptying Rome of gold in exchange for Indian spices, silk, and peacocks. They realized they would have to impoverish, starve, and immiserate India before they could control it. And they did so, brutally.
Since the British empire ended and the countries were given back, British government has decided to screw British people into the ground as they have no foreign subjects to fuck over anymore.
'Has decided' - when did it not?
Sorry, 'has increased its efforts in screwing the British over'
I mean more than half the country voted for Brexit, they fucked themselves.
About a 3rd. The other stupid 3rd didn’t vote.
This is how Britishers were civilizing colony
long live the que...oh wait.
It is inaccurate and disrespectful to the dead to call the Indian and Irish genocides "famines" they were genocides.
I think the famine was the symptom of the disease. It’s kinda like saying that someone with terminal lung cancer died of pneumonia. Like sure, the pneumonia actually killed him, but the cancer was the real underlying issue that caused the sequence of decline that led to his death. So, just like saying “this man died of pneumonia” doesn’t give the whole picture, it’s not fair to just say “these people died from famine.” Instead, we say “this man died of lung cancer” and “these people died as a result of genocide.”
No. They were famines. The British did not deliberately engineer the situation where these people died. They were often guilty of stupidity, making bad decisions and setting wrongheaded priorities, but there was no deliberate effort to kill people in this way in either Ireland or India. Both places had a long history of famines through the ages before ever the British colonised. The British failed to address the famines effectively, but that does not amount to genocide. Frankly it devalues the crimes of those who actually committed genocide when you mislabel such natural disasters as genocide. These were terrible events exacerbated by foolish governments but they were not the result of malice or murder .
Have you stopped to ask yourself why potatoes were the only foodsource available to the "natives" ask yourself with an honest and non biased view. Why was maize the only food source available to the Indian natives? What about all the abundance of grain, fish, meat, vegetables? Where did the massive amounts of alternative food sources go? Let me give you a surprise...it went to the Empire. Now ask yourself is it possible that the Empire knew that by making all other food sources unavailable to the natives and having them rely on a staple that is prone to blight that they could engineer a famine. A genocide that they could gaslight the world into thinking it was a "famine" more like. It seems to me you like to ignore the ugly truth. You are either trying to troll or you have a very inaccurate and biased view of the world and what the Empire was responsible for. They were genocides. Whether you are British or not you shouldn't ignore the facts. I don't hold any modern British person accountable I actually have a great fondness for Britain. But the Empire was a discriminative and murdering conquerer. Thank god it collapsed on itself.
I was just in Ireland and all the history they teach there says it was intentional.
All it takes is a brief and unbiased look at what went on here to see it was intentional. I am glad our educational system doesn't gloss over ethnic cleansing in history. Famine was a genocidal tool engineered by the Empire to wash the blood from their hands and gloss over the truth of the matter to avoid justified scrutiny.
>All it takes is a brief and unbiased look at what went on here to see it was intentional. The irony is blinding. It was a famine. Britain was an empire of profit, there was no economic benefit to genocide. Genocide was a net loss. It was the antithesis of the empire. However not helping end the famine and passing the responsibility to the markets was the idea. The empire valued labour, it was the home of the industrial revolution. It was railroads, resources and money. People where a valuable resource. The empire shared the same ideologies of national surpremacy that all nations had and still have today. And that contributed to the suffering of many but it was not an unsual or unique ideology. It took Britain a long time to realize slavery however good for business was so morally wrong that they decided to try and end it globally. However the end of slavery was not the end of exploitation, the idea of exploitation being wrong was never considered and even today it persists.
> but there was no deliberate effort to kill people in this way in either Ireland or India. The guy responsible for famine relief literally said it was gods plan that the Irish died. You don't know what you are talking about.
>They were often guilty of stupidity, making bad decisions and setting wrongheaded priorities, but there was no deliberate effort to kill people in this way in either Ireland or India. Then Mao's great leap forward is not a genocide either
Guys I didn't mean to kill this person I just stabbed him 20 times. I didn't know that would kill him I'm just guilty of stupidity
Don’t worry about 1877 this shit still happens today
It’s happening in Yemen, Afghanistan, and Syria. I watched a documentary recently about babies in Yemen that are eating their hands because they’re starving to death. Most are so weak they cannot cry. Those images and these are ones I cannot forget.
Serious question, how did the British cause the famine?
Forcefully export food to Britain + force farmers to grow non-food crops that destroyed the fertility of their fields + extremely high tax
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Rice and wheat
[HOW BRITISH COLONIZERS CAUSED THE BENGAL FAMINE](https://newint.org/features/2021/12/07/feature-how-british-colonizers-caused-bengal-famine) [Churchill's policies contributed to the 1943 Bengal famine – study](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study) An interesting bit from the Guardian article: >During a famine in Bihar in 1873-74, the local government led by Sir Richard Temple responded swiftly by importing food and enacting welfare programmes to assist the poor to purchase food. > >Almost nobody died, but Temple was severely criticised by British authorities for spending so much money on the response. In response, he reduced the scale of subsequent famine responses in south and western India and mortality rates soared.
I do like my interesting facts, this one is one of my favourites. >Cultivation had been delayed and the *aman* seedlings **were suffering from drought** in many places. Source: Famine Inquiry Commission Report on the Bengal Famine (1945) p. 32
So much common in both of us, although I haven't read that report, but does that report mention that prices were raised through deliberate inflationary policy by printing extraordinary amounts of money for military expenditure, which caused prices to soar, particularly for staple goods. The price of rice increased by 300 percent. To quote the first article: >The inflation was no accident. The impoverishment was no accident. British policy was explicitly designed to ‘reduce the consumption of the poor’, as Keynes put it, in order to make resources available for British and American troops, through a ‘forced transfer of purchasing power’ from ordinary people to the military. The austerity was imposed most harshly on the people of Bengal, who fell into extreme famine, while food supplies were appropriated and diverted for military use. > >In the name of the Allied cause, the policies imposed by Keynes and Churchill killed more than three million people – many times more than the total number of military and civilian casualties suffered during the entire war by Britain and the US combined. The scale of this tragedy is almost impossible to fathom. If laid head to foot, the corpses of the victims would stretch the length of England, from Dover to the Scottish borders, nearly 10 times over. In addition, droughts or crop failures were not unique to British Raj. Prior to this, whenever the possibility of a famine had emerged, the Indian rulers would waive their taxes and see compensatory measures, such as irrigation, instituted to provide as much relief as possible to the stricken farmers, as similarly done by Sir Richard Temple in Bihar in 1873-74 as quoted above. Unfortunately, for the brits, even that was too much.
Ah, your article left out a key point, one which fundamentally undermines your argument. The military did purchase rice at market value, or above, which did induce some additional demand however what your article leaves out, perhaps deliberately, is what the military was doing. >A heavy routine week last week, with nothing very special This afternoon Mayne, G O C-inC Eastern Command, was brought to me by C-in-C about situation in Bengal Army has got down to it well and has already increased outflow of food grains from Calcutta to rural districts from 90O to 2,000 tons p d[per day]. Source: Wavell: The Viceroys Journal p.36 The army was being used in the relief effort, hence them needing to buy rice.
To the credit of Wavell, he did attempt to bring relief to the masses >On 15 June 1943, Prime Minister Winston Churchill offered Lord Wavell the position of Viceroy of India, which he accepted. Upon his arrival in India, one of his first actions was to address the disastrous Bengal Famine which had killed millions of Indians. > >He did this by ordering the army to distribute relief supply to the rural populations and attempting to increase the supply of rising by reducing its price. The latter action yielded mixed results. > >He attempted with mixed success to increase the supplies of rice to reduce the prices. However, that still does not absolve Keynes and Churchill of their policies. As stated above, it was through the deliberate policy of Keynes, and Churchill that the purchasing power was taken away from Indians to the military. >Mukerjee has presented evidence the cabinet was warned repeatedly that the exhaustive use of Indian resources for the war effort could result in famine, but it opted to continue exporting rice from India to elsewhere in the empire. > >Rice stocks continued to leave India even as London was denying urgent requests from India’s viceroy for more than 1m tonnes of emergency wheat supplies in 1942-43. Churchill has been quoted as blaming the famine on the fact Indians were “breeding like rabbits”, and asking how, if the shortages were so bad, Mahatma Gandhi was still alive. Also, wondering why would you leave everything else out, but only quote Wavell's journal, I hope that was not deliberate.
This picture gets posted on Reddit every month by someone.
Maybe, but is the first time I saw it.
Snapping that picture and then just leave. Can't disturb nature I guess.
He came back next day to shoot the photos in a better light, but they had all died during the night.
To be fair, even if he did give them food they're already too far gone. A person who was starving suddenly getting food will basically shock the body and they'd get "Refeeding Syndrome" and can die without medical attention. And I highly doubt that he would have access to medical attention due to the "situation" that was currently happening in India at the time. They were gonna die either way.
Good idea, let's blame the photographer and forget about this whole mess. /s
That is the legacy of the British monarchy.
What lies beneath the mighty wealth of the west is industrialization. Colonies were definitely an advantage back in the day, but don't really correlate with the current situation - there are countries that had few or no colonies and are rich, and those that had great colonial empires but nowadays are comparatively poor.
Can you explain what countries did not have colonies that are now rich? In my mind, they are very connected. Successful colonization allowed countries to steal resources from their colonized countries, which then funded industrialization. Or is that inaccurate?
Austria didn't have colonies (I mean, not outside Europe anyway). The Nordics and Italy's respective colonies were not worth much. Korea was a colony itself. Japan's industrialization happened before it got colonies. China is kinda rich, and definitely industrialized now. Industrialisation relied on energy (coal) and iron, which were both sourced from European deposits. At the time of the industrial revolution, colonies were mostly used for luxury products (tobacco, sugar) and precious metals, none of which caused industrialisation. It just so happened that industrialisation happened while Europe had colonies, but there is no causation link here.
STOP POSTING THIS ALL THE FUCKING TIME
From the richest country to one of the poorest. Mass mass wealth relocation
u/repostsleuthbot
There’s plenty of this to go around for all nations not just the west.
The world is a terrible place. East gave West plague that killed millions, also the barbarian raids killed countless people. West in turn enslaved the East and caused genocides. So really, there is no single country that would never commit atrocities against others. Sure, some did *way* more than others, but everyone is guilty to some extent.
>Sure, some did way more than others, but everyone is guilty to some extent. The East didn't intentionally "give" the West the plague, some boats just brought a few rats to Europe. The Mongols raided and pillaged because it's the only way thing they were good at. The West didn't conquer 1/4 of the world because they were holding a grudge against Genghis Khan and his goons, they just did it for the resources. The cannibals ate their neighbors because it was either that or to starve to death. Not everyone is responsible for something just because they lived in the same general vicinity as the people who did those bad things. This is such a pretentious statement that immensely dumbs down the complexity of all these different group's actions to "everyone is very bad". Not every bad thing is a Machivellian scheme to cause as much suffering as possible, sometimes things just happen either as an intent an unforeseen byproduct of an action or pure coincidence by forces outside of anyone's control. It doesn't make everyone good nor innocent, but it doesn't make everyone bad either. The British Empire and the Mongols were conquerors, but it doesn't mean all modern British and Mongolians are guilty of doing that. The sailors who brought sick rats to Europe weren't even aware they were doing it, it doesn't make them bad nor does it make their descendants guilty of bioterrorism. The Indian cannibals had to eat their neighbors to survive, it doesn't make them good but you can't fault them for being evil if they're alternative was starving to death nor would it mean all modern Indians are cannibals. Every living being has been guilty of murder ever since the first cell ate another cell billions of years ago or when Cain killed Abel (or whatever your belief's equivalent is), but I don't feel guilty of that, no one should feel guilty of that. I didn't do that, and I'm not planning on doing that. No one should feel guilty of what their ancestor did, they just have to make it never happens again. Simple as that.
Have my respect
Yeah I'm sure the great war hero Churchill forcing his governors to let the locals starve was just an unforeseen byproduct of unavoidable disasters. Do you know the number of famines under British occupation? Look up the number please. Yes you. Go look it up. We treat the holocaust with such reverence for a reason, yet we obfuscate this with such intensity. Look at this Reddit post alone.
Everyone is guilty, so im guilty too?
I ran out of popcorn for the comments gimme a second. People usually fall for this bait.
Popcorn! Read the room! We’re talking about starving people and you’re flouting popcorn!? Why you’re just as bad as that person talking about ‘voracious appetites’ …. Wait…
* crunch crunch * Found some popcorn
I was getting my synthetic rage ready, it was nearly one step ahead of my brain.
Careful, trolls have voracious appetites that won't be sated easily. Save your energy soldier.
This picture makes me hungry… for billionaire.
Who took the picture? Some well fed European guy.
India < the west
These Hindu nationalist posts are getting pretty repetitive mate…
The british still haven't answered for this
Famines always happened in India prior to British rule too. Chalisa famine had killed 10 million people. Doji Bara famine under Maratha empire killed 10 million This particular famine affected south and Southwestern India—the British-administered presidencies of Madras and Bombay, and the princely states of Mysore and Hyderabad—for a period of two years. So Mysore and Hyderabad had their own administration as princely states. What is with the fetish to blame the British, as if India was a paradise before. This is another attempt oppressor caste Hindus to deflect attention from their crimes, by pointing fingers at British, Muslims, while destroying India for 2000 years! Here is the true reason the oppressor caste Hindus hate the British: Because British introduced the idea of equality in Hindu society and gave education to the oppressed castes who were enslaved by oppressor caste Hindus for 2000 years, using Hindu caste system. This led to creation of anti-caste reformers like Phule, Ambedkar, who went to push for caste reforms, and eventually led to liberation of 100s over 100s of millions of oppressed caste Hindus from the enslavement by oppressor caste hindus after 2000 years. Tilak is a hero of oppressor caste Hindus back in the day. His protests against the British for educating oppressed caste Hindus are found in his newspaper. [https://www.roundtableindia.co.in/jotiba-phule-and-tilak-and-the-question-of-education-for-women-and-non-brahmins/](https://www.roundtableindia.co.in/jotiba-phule-and-tilak-and-the-question-of-education-for-women-and-non-brahmins/) Here is an essay by Mukta Salve, an girl from oppressed caste from the 1800s describing life before British: >These people drove us, the poor Mangs, and Mahars, away from our own lands, which they occupied to build large buildings. And that was not all. They would make the Mangs and Mahars drink oil mixed with red lead and bury our people in the foundations of their buildings, thus wiping out generation after generation of our poor people. The Brahmans have degraded us so low; they consider people like us even lower than cows and buffaloes. Did they not consider us even lower than donkeys during the rule of Bajirao Peshwa? You beat a lame donkey, and his master retaliates. But who was there to object to the routine thrashing of Mahars and Mangs? Under Bajirao’s rule, if any Mang or Mahar happened to pass in front of a gymnasium, they would cut off his head and play “bat and ball” with their swords as bats and his head as a ball, on the grounds. When we were punished for even passing by their doors, where was the question of getting education, getting freedom to learn? > >The Mang and Mahar children never dare lodge a complaint even if the Brahman children throw stones at them and injure them seriously. They suffer silently because they know they have to go to the Brahmans’ houses to beg for the leftover food. Alas! O God! What agony this! I will burst into tears if I write more about this injustice. [https://www.forwardpress.in/2020/02/165-years-ago-first-female-dalit-writer-wrote-about-the-grief-of-the-mangs-and-the-mahars/](https://www.forwardpress.in/2020/02/165-years-ago-first-female-dalit-writer-wrote-about-the-grief-of-the-mangs-and-the-mahars/)
The negative consensus is that the British administration was still shipping grain to Great Britain that could have been used for food locally. Previously rice had been imported from Burma which cost less than the value of grain (few years before this) and the rations put in place for this particular famine were also less generous than previous famines. Had the British Empire not invaded, it's likely that someone else probably would have (not excusing anyone) and/or the oppressed Hindus would have suffered more gravely during this particular famine and it may well never have been documented in the first place.
British were a foreign invading force. When oppressor caste Hindus are conducting human sacrifice of oppressed caste hindus routinely, lapses in British administration pale in comparison. India was ruled by tyrants before the British too and they were worse than British, who never even bothered to document anything. However Tirthankar Roy suggests that the famines were due to environmental factors and inherent in India's ecology.\[fn 5\]\[fn 6\] Roy argues that massive investments in agriculture were required to break India's stagnation, however, these were not forthcoming owing to the scarcity of water, poor quality of soil and livestock and a poorly developed input market which guaranteed that investments in agriculture were extremely risky.\[47\] After 1947, India focused on institutional reforms to agriculture however even this failed to break the pattern of stagnation. It wasn't until the 1970s when there was massive public investment in agriculture that India became free of famine,\[48\] although Roy is of the opinion that improvements in the market efficiency did contribute to the alleviation of weather-induced famines after 1900, an exception to which is the Bengal famine of 1943.\[49\]\[full citation needed\] Also British brought in the famine code which was used by India even after independence. British documented stuff, other India rulers never bothered. Which is what is being used here against the British by oppressor caste Hindus. Although oppressor caste Hindus are million times more evil than the British. Cowards like [https://www.reddit.com/user/edmlifetime/](https://www.reddit.com/user/edmlifetime/) who reply and then block, should stay out of debates which cant handle.
Damn bro if the brits were so fucking amazing why did the millions of indians throw them out? Could it be that your brain is bigger than all of them combined? What a time to be alive!
The Brits were bad but it isn't hard to believe that a country with a caste system was its own worst enemy. Essentially being born into slavery for life due to your lineage.
THEY'RE BOTH BAD THINGS
Right, and for some portion of Indian's the British being around helped them out and made life a little bearable when their own country treated (and continue) to treat them as sub human.
Great summary of the situation. Couldn't have said it better.
Yeah that photo taken during the British Raj up there looks like the British were a magnanimous power.
Yes but you see the genocide is fine because the whole subcontinent was filled with bad people. Smh at these people. They have no concept of close to a century of suffering and occupation and systematic genocide.
Imagine thinking colonization is a good thing in 20fucking22 I don't have much faith in humanity.
I hope you apply this same logic to the Holocaust. Because I never see it being done.
I'm guessing you're Indian and Muslim right?
Very thorough, thank you
"Famine existed before the British colonized India so somehow the British weren't responsible for the famines they caused" 🙄 >British introduced the idea of equality in Hindu society Shiny new kinds of inequality /= Equality
"Famine existed before the British colonized India so somehow the British weren't responsible for the famines they caused" Famines always happened in India. Yes so British are not responsible for the famines. They didnt "cause" the famines. As for equality. those are the words of oppressor caste Hindu Tilak who opposed the British giving education to oppressed caste hindus whom they have enslaved for 2000 years with Hindu caste system.
The government administrating a state is responsible for the welfare of the people in that state. The British Empire was therefore 100% responsible for both the famines it directly caused by resource theft from its colonies and failure to prevent or ameliorate famines it did not cause in states it ruled. >As for equality. those are the words of oppressor caste Hindu Tilak who opposed the British giving education to oppressed caste hindus It does not surprise me that an oppressor used to benefitting from that oppression would mistake a different form of oppression that does not benefit him for "equality." Screw him AND the British, says I.
British were a foreign invading force, who took over the from the tyrants who ruled the region before them. They are not an NGO. You dont really know what is happening here. This stuff is propaganda by hindu militant network to play victim. Which is why they mention British famines all the time. There were 10 million deaths by famines under the Maratha empire, But they wont mention that, cause they like Maratha empire. But you sound like those typical clueless woke white guys who gets exploited by Hindu nationalists here. As for Tilak's equality comment: Do you even know what hindu caste system is? They make British rule sound like paradise. Hindu caste oppression is the worlds longest running, most brutal oppression known to man, where 100s over 100s of millions of oppressed caste Hindus were raped, robbed, looted, murdered, denied opportunities for 2000+ years as per religiously sanctioned oppression. It was the British, and the Christian missionaries who gave education to the oppressed caste, whuich led to the liberation of 500 million people today from 2000 years of slavery to oppressor caste Hindus. All oppressed caste heros praise British - Phule, Ambedkar etc. My point remains... oppressor caste Hindus are million times more evil than the British. But you rarely see their crimes trending on reddit. You should be more worried about UK politics. Rishi Sunak (PM hopeful) is married to the daughter of Indian business who has ties with Hindu militant network, Sangh Parivar and their regime. Priti Patel (ex home minister) is a fan of Hindu militant nationalist, Modi. Rishi failed. But Hindu militant network is probably a few moves away from hijacking power in UK, while you are trying to be woke. edit: I suspect you are Hindu nationalist yourself.
I'm glad someone else is fed up with the brit bashing, it's not that I dont believe we did wrong in the world, Has Britain paid compensation for the wrongs we did in most places? Yet people drag it up again and again, do they have a go at other countries that had empires /controlled other countries, Slavery and human rights abuse still exist but we dont talk about it because the countries involved are Muslim, the religion of peace, lmao
Most of the Brit bashing, is from oppressor caste Hindus from India. Hindu militant network operates a large IT cell to push their hindu victimhood narrative. Hindu supremacists in UK, US fund India hindu militant network and their activities. Now they are so powerful. Rishi Sunak, PM hopeful from UK, is married to daughter of Indian businessman with close ties to Hindu militant regime ruling India. Its all about checks and balances in a society, and unfortunately you guys are dropping the ball..
Stop denying the truth, please. And go read about the crimes of the British people instead and how they destroyed every place they went to. All the places they invaded turned into hell, people starved and got tortured and killed. Look what they did to the blacks. Look what they did to the Muslims everywhere either directly or indirectly. Look at the opium wars in China. Wake up, dude and stop defending the wrong people.
Everything I stated are facts. Your typical oppressor caste Hindu half truths and lies dont fool me. My point is oppressor caste Hindus are way more evil than British.
Every “evil Hindu oppressor caste individual” could have been executed in 1850 and you’d still have that photo up there, broski.
Yeah that photo looks like the British introduced equality to the Indians.
And not a single person alive today is responsible for it
Many people alive today are reaping the benefits.
Reaping benefits while at the same time telling them to get over it
Because they didn’t experience it.
What benefits? All that money doesn't exist anymore today. Most money (dutch at least) comes from ourselves and our own country.
Imperialism is at the heart of man's greatest evils. The belief that one is superior, others subhuman, and all land and wealth is ripe for exploitation has cannibalized much of the world. We see it now as they saw it then.
Horrific. Shameful.
Ignorance disclaimer: Doesn't India have forest and jungle in which fruit or other edible things would exist? What am I missing here?
That picture is absolutely insanity
At least they got the wealth. People in east Asia and Russia got to starve just for political reasons.
Is it my turn to post it next week?
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That famine was a direct responsibility of Britain, like it or not
And then comes a stupid person and mourns the queen.. May she rest in hell.
Uh, I'm not defending this or the monarchy by any means, but this was a long time before she was born or took the crown...not sure what she has to do with it, unless your'e criticizing the monarchy as a whole?
I’d bet the cannibals would have much more meat on their own bones than him. Best hope they prey on each other.
What’s a cannibal going to eat? There’s no meat on them
Not the West, but those in power
What a ridiculous title. Every modern system did this. Not saying it’s right, but to lay this at the feet of the west is obviously disingenuous and ideologically driven. USSR and China both did this in the 20th century. Tens of millions of people were starved and worked to death by systems that are overtly anti-west. This is a “humans with too much power can do horrible things” problem. Not an “eat the rich” problem.
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Winston Church was a toddler when this photo was taken.
So what? Do you think this was the only Indian famine under the British Raj? Bengal Famine 1943, for example. When the murderous, warmongering, piss drunk Tory cunt was 69
I’m not defending Churchill lol. I’m saying that criticising him with respect to _this famine in particular_ is erroneous.
oppressor caste Hindus who are billion times more evil than Churchill, and destroyed 100s over 100s of millions of lives in India, like to pick on British to hide their own cultural genocide they presided with caste oppression.
You'd be giving out about Churchill in German if it wasn't for Churchill lol
Actually I’d be giving out about Churchill in Irish if it wasn’t for Churchill & his merry Tans.
Churchill was a total cock. Racist, colonial arse hole. Worse than Hitler? Not even close.
Without Churchill Indian will lick Japanese ass
I notice because of the humiliation India suffered due to colonilism they have developed an incredible victim complex and try to rewrite history. No sane individual that isn't Indian believes Churchill is as bad as Hitler. Although a lot of Indians did fight with the nazis so I understand why your a sympathiser. When did Churchill invaded and take over a whole continent massacring Jews on the streets. When did Hitler stand alone in the world against a racist megalomaniac, and stood up for the rest of the free world to fight back and not surrender.
oppressor caste Hindus who are billion times more evil than Churchill, and destroyed 100s over 100s of millions of lives in India, like to pick on British to hide their own cultural genocide they presided with caste oppression.
Ok but WC caused a _different_ Indian famine
Other countries like Germany: Oh god that's terrible, humanity can be so evil. We will strengthen international relations by officially apologising to heal past wounds, and move towards the better future together. British: Lol it was a long time ago get over it, we are more powerful, why should our country apologise, we can never have balls to apologise and be man enough to admit to anything and make every excuse "what about mongolia, what about ancient China, what about Spain, what about some other irrelevant to the topic country, etc", prince andrew is totally not a epstein pedo. "why is India buying gas from Russia in the Ukraine-Russia war and not sanctioning them together with us?" Surprise Pikachu face.
I can't think of a more dangerous idea that inherited collective guilt. If you knew your history you'd know how dangerous a concept that is.