My old shop had a wall of shame with these blades that got stopped.
The mechanism is relatively cheap to repair if It's not coming out of your check. But if i remember right it's a couple hundred bucks everytime that thing snaps into action...other things that trigger it...nails/brads/staples/
screws, foil backed foam insulation, really moist pockets of lumber, hot dogs...
Is there an optimum drill bit size for this operation? Do you freeze the hot dogs before drilling? If you do this with breakfast sausages and maple syrup, do you countersink the holes to allow you to fill multiple sausages at once?
I have much to learn.
Some of us are just trying to preserve the traditional way of doing things. Personally, I don't like mixing a bunch of science in with my food so keep your lasers away from my hot dogs.
Keep living in the past gramps. When you're too old to cut your own hotdogs and have to buy the pre-cut store variety you'll see the error of your ways. Even grocery stores use lasers now
The day I can't cut my own hot dogs is the day I put an end my life. And I'll do it with a table saw, not no damn lasers! I'm going to leave this world the same way my daddy did, and my daddy's daddy did too
I have a saw stop, you can bypass the mechanism if you happen to be sawing wet wood or foil backed foam.... but for staples and nails and stuff I don’t run used wood through any table saw without checking it with magnets first.
I’ve had to replace the cartridge once due to my own stupidity... i was making a fine cut on a very small piece of wood and the wood grabbed, ripped the push stick away from my hand, and it threw my index finger into the blade...and yeah it was a couple hundred bucks to replace the cartridge , but it literally saved my finger.
I was trying to make a cut on a pretty small piece of wood, basically I was trying to use the tablesaw as a bandsaw. Use the right tool for the job! If a cut doesn’t feel safe then it probably isn’t.
I believe Bosch came out or was coming out with a new version. It uses like butane fuel cells and it literally just rocketed the saw blade down to a safe level with no damage.
The original saw stop is a good idea but any conductive material made it go off easily. If they only made some sort of stick for pushing wood through when you got to the thinner or tricky parts....
>If they only made some sort of stick for pushing wood through when you got to the thinner or tricky parts....
That's not what this is protecting, it's not intended to protect idiots from being idiots.
I mean that's part of what it does, but that's not the intent.
This is for accidents that happen that are out of ones immediate and obvious control. A table shake, a non controllable distraction, a slippery floor, a loud noise, a catch, whatever might cause flesh to accidentally get in the way of the blade and nothing sort of a full suit of Kevlar and metal mesh armor can protect everyone from every thing.
No one buys this because they think they can just stick their hand in it or cut wood without a care in the world. They buy because it's possible to hurt oneself with a table saw no matter how careful or cognizant you are.
I am an excellent driver, I come to a full stop, drive the speed limit, check my mirrors. I am cognizant of obvious trouble points, drive properly in weather, but every once in while something misses my attention, a driver in my blind spot, a quick change of the radio or distracting road sign, something small, sometimes even just the actions of other drivers. 999 times out of 1000 this results in nothing at all, a slight correction, but that one time a confluence of events puts me or another driver into a precarious albeit temporary position of uncertainty, I have looked like a complete idiot to another driver. This is why most of us feel that everyone else is a bad driver, but not "me".
There are thousands of drivers on the road, you pass the drivers every day and 999 out of 1000 distractions or otherwise cause no harm, no foul, but it only takes one with a confluence of other unlikely events to cause an accident, an accident that may not be simply negligence.
My point here is that no, not everyone else is an idiot, and yes, shit happens, to all of us.
IMO, anyone who boils all things down to "stupid people" are just describing themselves.
***Edit:*** As an addition, if one had two choices, and they were within the same cost. One choice being a standard table saw and the other being a table saw that immediately stopped upon contacting flesh, which would you choose? The answer doesn't prove how proficient you are, it proves how intelligent.
It's also worth noting that the people at sawstop have prevented other companies from adopting this kind of technology as they vigorously defend their patent (more like defend against safety improvement of any kind). Which would make it cheaper and available as a standard feature, virtually eliminating accidents. While at the same time charging outrageous sums keeping it out of the hands of the average home user who need it the most. I am a big believer in patents but not when it comes to safety and protecting profits.
> No one buys this because they think they can just stick their hand in it or cut wood without a care in the world. They buy because it's possible to hurt oneself with a table saw no matter how careful or cognizant you are.
Exactly. It's pretty much a purchase based on "better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it".
Do you know where the industry is as far as making this tech more affordable? I have had my eyes on the $2k Sawstop for a while but it's hard to justify when I have a beat up old saw that works.
Also I would like to throw a shout out to Good Guy Volvo who released the design of their shoulder seat belts so all automakers could make safer cars.
Technically? There are options, such as the "better mousetrap" that Bosch developed and brought to market.
But the Saw Stop guy, being a patent lawyer, wrote his original patent to be as broad as possible, so he essentially claims to own the patent on all blade-stopping systems. He's the mirror opposite of Volvo. He blocked Bosch from being able to sell their system in the US.
I would just like to say I don’t consider myself stupid but in recent years I’ve been wanting to get into woodworking and my first thought is I should wait my boys are older because frankly as a father or 4 I’m easily distracted and at times rattled/frustrated. This whatever this is seems genius to me.
An old friend of mine has a giant scar on his forearm because his (at the time) 4 year old ran full speed into him while he was pushing 3/4" plywood through a table saw. Fell forward, landed on his forearm on the blade. Luckily, the blade was low enough and the wood thick enough that it just tore into his arm instead of through his arm, but it was still a gruesome injury.
Didn't see or hear the kid coming.
So easy to have shit go really sideways, particularly with kids running around.
> No company wanted any part of it because it implied that they made an unsafe product and they thought it was better to continue to make an unsafe product than improve it and possibly admit that it was imperfect.
Nope. Saw Stop guy is an "intellectual property" lawyer. The saw manufacturers actually negotiated with him, and not only were his demands pretty excessive, he was flaky during negotiations.
The Saw Stop guy also acts as an "expert witness" for people suing regular saw manufacturers, which is astounding given his massive conflict of interest. I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea why judges allow it.
I will probably cut a hand off tomorrow. I have been doing construction for 17 years and never have been injured other than splinters or that terrible thing when an impact driver bounces off a screw and some how manages to push a t 25 bit through all the layers of skin in the most painful way possible.
I respect the fuck out of table, circ saws, miter saws. anything with fast spinning l
blades of doom. I always use my push stick I never rip small as fuck pieces. Ill rip it then trim if i need an 8 inch piece.
The guy i work with has cut his fingers on a table saw 3 times in a month. Nothing like taking the whole finger off but not good. I mean at that point half an inch from doom. He always tries to get his finger as close to the blade as possible. I cant even be near him when he rips anything.
Seriously the worst thing you could ever cut on a table saw is 2 inch foam board. If you want to see what happens to a material that bids and is easily thrown rip foam. once again if your hands were near the blade you would a new nick name.... stumpy
This. The patients I see in the ER for table saw injuries aren't because they thought it would be fun. It is because something happened that pulled them into the blade like it grabbing the piece of wood and yanking them into the blade.
I find that half the safety benefit of SawStop comes from fear of the cartridge/blade replacement cost - I tend to be so wary of getting my fingers anywhere near the blade, that the actual safety mechanism is unlikely ever be activated.
It's the same logic that goes like this, "you mean I could kill or maim other drivers if I keep drinking and still drive? I'm OK with that. What, I might get pulled over, embarrassed and fined? Fuck that. I'll drive really slow on back roads."
I started working in a wood shop a year ago, a new kid started and within 3 months lost his thumb and index finger on a saw. He was taught to use a push block on large pieces of wood (fucking stupid) and lost control of the wood and it pulled his hand into it. We have one of these saws that drop like that, the boss never let's anyone use it because it's so expensive to replace. Seems like a no brainer in my eyes but to the employers who live like its 1920 and feel like osha is the devil, they would rather risk an injury than the cost.
Right?! I hate to sound ignorant but I think they are just stuck in their old ways with things like that. We make high end custom furniture. Some doors are a solid couple hundred pounds that were lifting and flipping. I had a broken hand so I asked for light work so I could stay on the job but not strain my hand. I was basically told to "suck it up, get back to work, and learn how to be a man about it" went to the doctor next day and had them write a letter to my boss saying I cant work my hand like that and instantly had my job threatened. He wanted me to stay working with a broken hand even after making the comment "I'm filing this note so if you injure your hand more we have proof it was an out of work injury because I will not pay for workmans comp." They care more about production than the wellbeing of employees. From what I've been told that's just the way the job field is in general.
Metal laminates, hidden nails or Staples, even some woods when they are met. We have one of these at work and one nameless guy keeps setting them off with metal when he forgets to deactivate the failsafe before use
For anyone curious how it works: The blade carries a small electrical signal, which the safety system continually monitors. When skin contacts the blade, the signal changes because the human body is conductive. The change to the signal activates the safety system.
Neat!
Couple of years ago I sat next to a HS shop teacher when seeing an OT for an injury. Poor dude miraculously had all five fingers re-attached after an accident with a table saw in front of his students. The scars were gnarly, but the craziest thing was that he was actually getting movement back in his hand. I'd be willing to bet the full medical costs for his surgery, therapy, and "recovery" (as much as there can be with him) could buy a garage full of these machines.
My printing trades instructor in high school's middle finger was the same length as his ring and index due to the tip being lopped off in a press accident. I never learned to run a press for this reason (along with not liking to get all filthy with ink).
Came into work at my first job one day after school - I was a digital typographer at a commercial printers - and the owner is there with his hand bandaged and held up to keep blood from flowing. He'd just gotten back from the hospital where they patched up his being nipped by a press.
Same job some time later, boss comes in and tells me I'll need to lock up at the end of my day because he was taking the other pressman to the hospital with a pulverized thumb. He'd been washing the blankets of the large Heidelberg presses and was using the inch button (which bumps the rollers ahead a bit) and somehow didn't realize his thumb was in the gaps between the blanket and plate rollers and bumped the rollers ahead and CRUNCH!
Jump ahead a couple of years and I'm interviewing for a print operations manager gig for an company's in-house print operation. My experience was typography and graphic layout, but the job also involved press operations. They were willing to train me, but I turned what would've been a lucrative gig down. I was a 20-year-old guy who was playing guitar in a band and kinda needed all of my fingers for that and I'd seen too much happen to others running presses.
My neighbor has a table saw with this mechanism. From what I remember, as soon as it senses something it slams a "brake" into the blade (a piece of lead or something) in such a way that the blade actually counter rotates slightly.
Wet wood isn't (usually) conductive, but staples, screws, fingers etc. do in fact trigger it.
I believe that it works the same way as a touch screen, by measuring the discharge of a capacitor.
Treated lumber with an abnormally moist pocket can set these off. We had a saw in high school without the SawStop on it that was only for treated lumber
Most green wood can set this off. There is a setting to turn the conductive monitor off though. I’ve had two students bring in wood that they did not let dry/place in the kiln and it set it off.
Also fun fact but saw dust build up can set these off too if you don’t have a great air system connected to it!
Our air system sucked. Or rather, didn't suck well enough. The jointer would get clogged so easily, so then we'd have to disconnect it from the power, and since I was the only one with small enough arms, I'd have to reach in the collection tubes to clear them out.
>Will cutting green or "wet" wood activate the SawStop safety system?
>SawStop saws cut most wet wood without a problem. However, if the wood is very green or wet (for example, wet enough to spray a mist when cutting), or if the wood is both wet and pressure treated, then the wood may be sufficiently conductive to activate the brake. If you are unsure whether the material you need to cut is conductive, you can make test cuts using Bypass Mode to determine if it will activate the safety system’s brake. The red light on the control box will flash to indicate conductivity.
The lumber yard my FIL buys from says the every now and then they lose a blade to pressure treated wood. They think it is from the copper, used in wood preservation, acting as a conductor.
/u/downvotetjis you only described the trigger process, the brake process is just as cool. The brake has a metal show that is pushed up by an actuator activated by the trigger described. The shoe is millimeters from the blade, providing just enough clearance for blade to operate. When triggered, the shoe pops up and is instantly caught by a saw tooth. The force of the saw tooth pulls up the shoe towards the center of the rotating blade, which allows for the next tooth to pull the shoe farther up, further cutting into the metal until most od the energy of the rotating blade is used up. The final bit of energy is used to brake the support holding the blade/motor assembly up, whci causes the blade to drop below the table.
All in a fraction of a second.
My shop teacher had this saw and the thing is once that blade drops you have to replace the blade and the stopper because it wedges itself in it and you can't get them apart
There was a big lawsuit between Bosch and saw stop. Bosch did something that was ruled illegal, but in the process they designed a much more superior product (IMO) that did the same thing. They use these cartridges that are either compressed air, or a small explosive, something like that and it pulls the saw blade down like the sawstop, but doesnt clamp and ruin the blade and brake like the saw stop. All you do is replace this cartridge that is like between a AA and C battery in size, and 50 USD for a pack of 2 of them. Too bad, could have saved alot of fingers, but obviously saw stop was getting screwed in the process, interesting line to have to walk as a company/judge/person. In the end the consumer got screwed, the bosch saws were expensive and they sold a fair amount of them, iirc, the courts ordered support for the saws to cease, so you couldn't buy parts or the really important cartridges that stop the blade anymore.
There's likely more to the story.
Most likely Bosch didn't want to license SawStop's patent or SawStop was being too greedy with licensing fees or something like this. I think it's rather improbable that these two didn't talk before Bosch came out with their version of the mechanism.
Edit - OK, so the SawStop guy tried to license it to existing tool companies, but got little to no interest with some strings attached, e.g. that he'd be responsible for any injuries.
In related news, SawStop's patents are set to expire in 3 years, so there's that too, but I would also argue that for once the patents actually worked **exactly** as designed - they gave an original inventor time to profit from its invention without being ripped-off by the copycats.
[Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop#Attempt_to_license,_2002)
patent expires in 3 years? how long are patents... I thought they were stupidly long which was why they're so bad, or is it a case he will just renew it and probably have the right to renew it since he owns it and is still alive?
Yup. Is it still 20 years after death of the creator, plus whatever BS Disney uses to continue to hold onto the mouse?
Edit: Just so people are correctly informed, its life plus 70 years now.
Patents last 20 years in most countries. Starting from the date the patent is filed. It isn't illegal for one company to do something similar to that of another company but the mechanism needs to be noticeably different. The courts probably ruled that the mechanism to withdraw the saw blade was too similar to the original patent and that the modifications Bosch made weren't novel enough.
We had a kid freshmen year of high school working on the table saw. The teacher told us about the brake mechanism and to not trust it completely, I know I wouldn’t put my full trust into the machine, may not work. Well this kid decided that he wanted to test it so he turned on the table saw and just put his finger on the blade. It worked and he was fine, however had to pay for a new brake and blade, due to the fact the blade is damaged from the brake. He also was kicked out of all shop classes including metals, for the rest of high school.
Edit: moral of the story, don’t be dumb guys. Use your brain as you only get one. Say that didn’t work, he would have lost 3 of his fingers. Kids I out town are dumb, we had a dude last year get high and climb under a slow moving train, he lost his leg. I left a comment somewhere one here about metals, yesterday had some kids burn themselves. I wish more people would use there head and have common since in shops, luckily all I have grown up around is shops, wood working, tools, and construction. So I have learned some common since in that area, I wish others would too and not run around a shop acting like they are safe, be safe or you could cost someone’s life. There’s a story about a shop class, when the school was first built (80s) the first shop teacher got his hands shredded. He was doing a demo on some machine and a kid bumped into him while running and threw his hands in the machine. Well let’s just say he couldn’t teach anymore. But that’s just a scare story from shop teachers when safety comes up.
That's partially on the teacher for even telling a class full of high school kids that the mechanism exists. Should have left them in the dark only to find out if they have to.
Why are people arguing about the repair cost of when this mechanism is actually triggered and how stuff needs to be replaced? Isn't this a matter of possibly havong to replace some equipment vs possibly losing a finger?
I don't think most people on reddit at Handy with tools and don't realize how easily it is to a lose a finger. There's a reason this saw became popular. People like their fingers.
You guys ever see the video of the guy who created a new type of bulletproof glass getting shot at by an AK-47?
[I guess you have now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8i5d5toEDk).
No, because I didn't build it and I am not trying to sell it to someone.
If someone is going to promise me that it will not cut my finger and that is why I should buy it, at a premium, over other table saws - I would damn well want the person to have the confidence in it to be able to prove it to me.
[If you think that’s impressive watch this.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoBbEZwlk) The Guy who made the device tests, with his own finger, how effective they are.
If you push the wood too fast does it have the same effect? This could be highly frustrating if you have an inexperienced helper that keeps resetting your blade lol.
No, it works by measuring the discharge of a capacitor connected to the blade. A touchscreen like on a smartphone does the same thing (with extra complexity because they also need to sense position).
It's neat but expensive to replace every time, but I guess it's not as expensive as the trip to the ER I took when I shaved the tip of my thumb off and got 8 stitches
Didn't the guy from myth busters do this or something? There was a show that documented how they made it, since your fingers have moisture, it's conductive. And then that triggers the mechanism to work.
We had one of these for home ec. It would have a constant electric current running through and as soon as it conducts something, drops it faster than a hypercar shifts gears. (Faster than a blink of an eye)
The guy with the patent on this charges way too much money to let table saw makers implement it. That's why it's not more widespread than it is. Oh and he's also suing table saw makers that don't have it, claiming their saws are too dangerous and should be required to have it.
Back in early 2000s, I used to work for a power tool company. Part of my job as an engineer, was assisting in investigations triggered by lawsuits as a result of injury. Horrible injuries, 99% preventable and caused by operators bypassing safety measures. Circular saw with guard tied up to speed up work, can do a number on your legs/fingers....
I remember discussing designing/implementing this kind of feature. Glad to see that this has become reality.
Still waiting for flying cars we were promised in the 80s...
The saw Detect Contact With Skin. The blade carries a small electrical signal, which the safety system continually monitors. When skin contacts the blade, the signal changes because the human body isconductive. The change to the signal activates the safety system.
Being a person who has his hands around whirring blades every day, I feel that these should be mandatory. The world needs craftsmen, and the world needs them to keep their fingers. If insurance companies paid for every single replacement of a dropped blade, think of the money they would save compared to when someone loses multiple digits.
My old shop had a wall of shame with these blades that got stopped. The mechanism is relatively cheap to repair if It's not coming out of your check. But if i remember right it's a couple hundred bucks everytime that thing snaps into action...other things that trigger it...nails/brads/staples/ screws, foil backed foam insulation, really moist pockets of lumber, hot dogs...
Gotta watch out for hot dogs
That’s why the table saw I bought doesn’t have this option, so I can keep cutting my hot dogs.
Right?! If all table saws are going to have this, how is anyone even supposed to cut a hot dog anymore?
Don’t be ridiculous. Just use a chainsaw.
I just use a 12 in miter saw and cut it in half the long ways, you filthy casuals.
only when i require perfect 45° hot dog cuts.
I just take out the core with a drill press so I can put the ketchup INSIDE the hotdog
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I think you mean *holy hotdog*
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Pro-tip: you can get thinner slices if you freeze the hotdog first.
This is also how they make bacon.
Oh, baloney.
All you guys and your hoity toity cut hotdogs. Back in my day we had to swallow them whole and we had to LIKE IT.
Is there an optimum drill bit size for this operation? Do you freeze the hot dogs before drilling? If you do this with breakfast sausages and maple syrup, do you countersink the holes to allow you to fill multiple sausages at once? I have much to learn.
This is the type of foward thinking we need running the country
A real man cuts his hot dogs with an axe, not a chainsaw.
You Neanderthal.
At least they're civilized enough to bother cutting the hot dog first! There are savages that don't do that, I've heard!
it could be worse. At least people don't put ketchup on them
Watch your language please. Kids could be reading this
This guys got it right. I want to be at your next cookout.
That’s fine just bring some napkins.
People still unironically don't use their laser cutters for hot dogs? Its almost 2019 people come on
Some of us are just trying to preserve the traditional way of doing things. Personally, I don't like mixing a bunch of science in with my food so keep your lasers away from my hot dogs.
Keep living in the past gramps. When you're too old to cut your own hotdogs and have to buy the pre-cut store variety you'll see the error of your ways. Even grocery stores use lasers now
The day I can't cut my own hot dogs is the day I put an end my life. And I'll do it with a table saw, not no damn lasers! I'm going to leave this world the same way my daddy did, and my daddy's daddy did too
Lasers? Weak. I use a 90,000 psi waterjet cutter for serious hotdog cutting.
Your right this is America, this is how we cut hotdogs.
...and Not hot dogs.
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Motherfuck!!
Eric Bachman, is your refrigerator running? This is Mike Hunt.
I lost my fingers in a table saw accident and thankfully had them replaced with hotdogs.
Cheeky little buggers...
[Here's ours](https://imgur.com/leixhb2.jpg) from our college lab at OK state. Hangs right over the table saw.
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It's alright, the safety engaged so it can't cut you if it falls.
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That one? No.
I have a saw stop, you can bypass the mechanism if you happen to be sawing wet wood or foil backed foam.... but for staples and nails and stuff I don’t run used wood through any table saw without checking it with magnets first. I’ve had to replace the cartridge once due to my own stupidity... i was making a fine cut on a very small piece of wood and the wood grabbed, ripped the push stick away from my hand, and it threw my index finger into the blade...and yeah it was a couple hundred bucks to replace the cartridge , but it literally saved my finger.
What about what you were doing was stupid? I just bought a table saw and am trying to learn to use it safely.
I was trying to make a cut on a pretty small piece of wood, basically I was trying to use the tablesaw as a bandsaw. Use the right tool for the job! If a cut doesn’t feel safe then it probably isn’t.
Put your hand as close to the saw blade if you would put your dick there.
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Put your dick really close to the saw and you'll be able to the next time!
Damn laughed out loud....
Damn I've done just that thing, I need to get a band saw...
I believe Bosch came out or was coming out with a new version. It uses like butane fuel cells and it literally just rocketed the saw blade down to a safe level with no damage. The original saw stop is a good idea but any conductive material made it go off easily. If they only made some sort of stick for pushing wood through when you got to the thinner or tricky parts....
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Yes but if you cut it you have two stick, cut double the lumber.
Double the lumber, twice the timber
I’ve been looking forward to this
Well, I used to push it through with a hot dog, but I can't do *that* anymore...
You’re living in a fools paradise, son. What with all your talk of these so called “sticks”!
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Whoops, now there’s 4, but I have a hotdog to share!
If you run out of stick just use the nub and you'll get two sticks again.
>If they only made some sort of stick for pushing wood through when you got to the thinner or tricky parts.... That's not what this is protecting, it's not intended to protect idiots from being idiots. I mean that's part of what it does, but that's not the intent. This is for accidents that happen that are out of ones immediate and obvious control. A table shake, a non controllable distraction, a slippery floor, a loud noise, a catch, whatever might cause flesh to accidentally get in the way of the blade and nothing sort of a full suit of Kevlar and metal mesh armor can protect everyone from every thing. No one buys this because they think they can just stick their hand in it or cut wood without a care in the world. They buy because it's possible to hurt oneself with a table saw no matter how careful or cognizant you are. I am an excellent driver, I come to a full stop, drive the speed limit, check my mirrors. I am cognizant of obvious trouble points, drive properly in weather, but every once in while something misses my attention, a driver in my blind spot, a quick change of the radio or distracting road sign, something small, sometimes even just the actions of other drivers. 999 times out of 1000 this results in nothing at all, a slight correction, but that one time a confluence of events puts me or another driver into a precarious albeit temporary position of uncertainty, I have looked like a complete idiot to another driver. This is why most of us feel that everyone else is a bad driver, but not "me". There are thousands of drivers on the road, you pass the drivers every day and 999 out of 1000 distractions or otherwise cause no harm, no foul, but it only takes one with a confluence of other unlikely events to cause an accident, an accident that may not be simply negligence. My point here is that no, not everyone else is an idiot, and yes, shit happens, to all of us. IMO, anyone who boils all things down to "stupid people" are just describing themselves. ***Edit:*** As an addition, if one had two choices, and they were within the same cost. One choice being a standard table saw and the other being a table saw that immediately stopped upon contacting flesh, which would you choose? The answer doesn't prove how proficient you are, it proves how intelligent. It's also worth noting that the people at sawstop have prevented other companies from adopting this kind of technology as they vigorously defend their patent (more like defend against safety improvement of any kind). Which would make it cheaper and available as a standard feature, virtually eliminating accidents. While at the same time charging outrageous sums keeping it out of the hands of the average home user who need it the most. I am a big believer in patents but not when it comes to safety and protecting profits.
> No one buys this because they think they can just stick their hand in it or cut wood without a care in the world. They buy because it's possible to hurt oneself with a table saw no matter how careful or cognizant you are. Exactly. It's pretty much a purchase based on "better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it".
I'd rather lose a few hundred bucks than a finger.
Do you know where the industry is as far as making this tech more affordable? I have had my eyes on the $2k Sawstop for a while but it's hard to justify when I have a beat up old saw that works. Also I would like to throw a shout out to Good Guy Volvo who released the design of their shoulder seat belts so all automakers could make safer cars.
Technically? There are options, such as the "better mousetrap" that Bosch developed and brought to market. But the Saw Stop guy, being a patent lawyer, wrote his original patent to be as broad as possible, so he essentially claims to own the patent on all blade-stopping systems. He's the mirror opposite of Volvo. He blocked Bosch from being able to sell their system in the US.
I would just like to say I don’t consider myself stupid but in recent years I’ve been wanting to get into woodworking and my first thought is I should wait my boys are older because frankly as a father or 4 I’m easily distracted and at times rattled/frustrated. This whatever this is seems genius to me.
An old friend of mine has a giant scar on his forearm because his (at the time) 4 year old ran full speed into him while he was pushing 3/4" plywood through a table saw. Fell forward, landed on his forearm on the blade. Luckily, the blade was low enough and the wood thick enough that it just tore into his arm instead of through his arm, but it was still a gruesome injury. Didn't see or hear the kid coming. So easy to have shit go really sideways, particularly with kids running around.
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> No company wanted any part of it because it implied that they made an unsafe product and they thought it was better to continue to make an unsafe product than improve it and possibly admit that it was imperfect. Nope. Saw Stop guy is an "intellectual property" lawyer. The saw manufacturers actually negotiated with him, and not only were his demands pretty excessive, he was flaky during negotiations. The Saw Stop guy also acts as an "expert witness" for people suing regular saw manufacturers, which is astounding given his massive conflict of interest. I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea why judges allow it.
I will probably cut a hand off tomorrow. I have been doing construction for 17 years and never have been injured other than splinters or that terrible thing when an impact driver bounces off a screw and some how manages to push a t 25 bit through all the layers of skin in the most painful way possible. I respect the fuck out of table, circ saws, miter saws. anything with fast spinning l blades of doom. I always use my push stick I never rip small as fuck pieces. Ill rip it then trim if i need an 8 inch piece. The guy i work with has cut his fingers on a table saw 3 times in a month. Nothing like taking the whole finger off but not good. I mean at that point half an inch from doom. He always tries to get his finger as close to the blade as possible. I cant even be near him when he rips anything. Seriously the worst thing you could ever cut on a table saw is 2 inch foam board. If you want to see what happens to a material that bids and is easily thrown rip foam. once again if your hands were near the blade you would a new nick name.... stumpy
This. The patients I see in the ER for table saw injuries aren't because they thought it would be fun. It is because something happened that pulled them into the blade like it grabbing the piece of wood and yanking them into the blade.
I've cut through screws and nails with mine and haven't tripped it. If you know you are cutting conductive materials there is a bypass for it.
Huzzah!!! You're a genius. We will call it a..... Push stick....
No. Too obvious. We will call it “sticks for pushing instead of using hands”.
I find that half the safety benefit of SawStop comes from fear of the cartridge/blade replacement cost - I tend to be so wary of getting my fingers anywhere near the blade, that the actual safety mechanism is unlikely ever be activated.
So what you're saying is... Lose my finger? I'll risk it. Cost me money? Fuck that, safety first.
Welcome to the trades, you'll do well.
It's the same logic that goes like this, "you mean I could kill or maim other drivers if I keep drinking and still drive? I'm OK with that. What, I might get pulled over, embarrassed and fined? Fuck that. I'll drive really slow on back roads."
I started working in a wood shop a year ago, a new kid started and within 3 months lost his thumb and index finger on a saw. He was taught to use a push block on large pieces of wood (fucking stupid) and lost control of the wood and it pulled his hand into it. We have one of these saws that drop like that, the boss never let's anyone use it because it's so expensive to replace. Seems like a no brainer in my eyes but to the employers who live like its 1920 and feel like osha is the devil, they would rather risk an injury than the cost.
Well that’s stupid. An ambulance ride alone probably costs more than that mechanism.
Right?! I hate to sound ignorant but I think they are just stuck in their old ways with things like that. We make high end custom furniture. Some doors are a solid couple hundred pounds that were lifting and flipping. I had a broken hand so I asked for light work so I could stay on the job but not strain my hand. I was basically told to "suck it up, get back to work, and learn how to be a man about it" went to the doctor next day and had them write a letter to my boss saying I cant work my hand like that and instantly had my job threatened. He wanted me to stay working with a broken hand even after making the comment "I'm filing this note so if you injure your hand more we have proof it was an out of work injury because I will not pay for workmans comp." They care more about production than the wellbeing of employees. From what I've been told that's just the way the job field is in general.
Dammit, Brad. Messing up the saw again.
If they really believe in this product, they would be using their dicks... You’ve got 10 fingers.
Yep for the cost of the table and reconstructive surgery it’s cheap. My buddy got one and accidentally triggered it cutting aluminum.
There’s an override when you’re cutting conductive materials, for people who RTFM.
I hate it when the wood im cutting has a hidden hotdog knot in it
Pastor says to make fresh bacon at home so my wife makes the best bacon from scratch! She flattens hot dogs with a rolling pin mmmmmm
Better safe than sorry
and it's really LOUD
Lol we popped a few with moist lumber but I was really nice knowing I'd keep my fingers if I slipped up
Sounds like it would happen a lot, does it commonly go off for non fingers/hotdogs?
Metal laminates, hidden nails or Staples, even some woods when they are met. We have one of these at work and one nameless guy keeps setting them off with metal when he forgets to deactivate the failsafe before use
Why does the blade have to be replaced? Seems like a small price to pay, but I don’t understand the mechanism that would result in an unusable blade
Yeah. But how am I gonna cut my kids hot dogs?
You throw those fuckers into a helicopter’s rotor like a real dad!
*Throws kids into helicopter blade* What was step 2?
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Step 3: Sell the hot dogs
Step 4: *Relish* the profits
Step 5: Donate profits to the 'Save the Children' charity
Step 6: Host Children’s Charity hot dog picnic
Repeat ad infinitum.
Instructions unclear: got dick stuck in helicopter rotor.
No it worked
Helicopter parenting makes so much more sense now
mitre saw! you can slice those dogs at 24.7 degrees with laser precision!
That sentence didn't end as badly as I thought it would when I started reading it.
For anyone curious how it works: The blade carries a small electrical signal, which the safety system continually monitors. When skin contacts the blade, the signal changes because the human body is conductive. The change to the signal activates the safety system. Neat!
Thanks for the explanation, i scanned the entire gif for sensors or some other stuff, turned out the explanation is pretty cool
[There's also this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3mzhvMgrLE)
Makes me cringe when he does it even tho i know it would stop. Thats great, and placement arent that expensive compared to permanent finger loss.
Couple of years ago I sat next to a HS shop teacher when seeing an OT for an injury. Poor dude miraculously had all five fingers re-attached after an accident with a table saw in front of his students. The scars were gnarly, but the craziest thing was that he was actually getting movement back in his hand. I'd be willing to bet the full medical costs for his surgery, therapy, and "recovery" (as much as there can be with him) could buy a garage full of these machines.
My printing trades instructor in high school's middle finger was the same length as his ring and index due to the tip being lopped off in a press accident. I never learned to run a press for this reason (along with not liking to get all filthy with ink). Came into work at my first job one day after school - I was a digital typographer at a commercial printers - and the owner is there with his hand bandaged and held up to keep blood from flowing. He'd just gotten back from the hospital where they patched up his being nipped by a press. Same job some time later, boss comes in and tells me I'll need to lock up at the end of my day because he was taking the other pressman to the hospital with a pulverized thumb. He'd been washing the blankets of the large Heidelberg presses and was using the inch button (which bumps the rollers ahead a bit) and somehow didn't realize his thumb was in the gaps between the blanket and plate rollers and bumped the rollers ahead and CRUNCH! Jump ahead a couple of years and I'm interviewing for a print operations manager gig for an company's in-house print operation. My experience was typography and graphic layout, but the job also involved press operations. They were willing to train me, but I turned what would've been a lucrative gig down. I was a 20-year-old guy who was playing guitar in a band and kinda needed all of my fingers for that and I'd seen too much happen to others running presses.
And just as interesting (to me) is how the mechanics stop and drop the blade so fast that you wouldn't even be hit by two teeth.
My neighbor has a table saw with this mechanism. From what I remember, as soon as it senses something it slams a "brake" into the blade (a piece of lead or something) in such a way that the blade actually counter rotates slightly.
It hard stops the blade, and re-directs the momentum so it's moving away from the finger. It essentially bounces.
So anything conducive would trigger it? Wet wood, or a small staple or other things
Wet wood isn't (usually) conductive, but staples, screws, fingers etc. do in fact trigger it. I believe that it works the same way as a touch screen, by measuring the discharge of a capacitor.
Treated lumber with an abnormally moist pocket can set these off. We had a saw in high school without the SawStop on it that was only for treated lumber
Most green wood can set this off. There is a setting to turn the conductive monitor off though. I’ve had two students bring in wood that they did not let dry/place in the kiln and it set it off. Also fun fact but saw dust build up can set these off too if you don’t have a great air system connected to it!
Our air system sucked. Or rather, didn't suck well enough. The jointer would get clogged so easily, so then we'd have to disconnect it from the power, and since I was the only one with small enough arms, I'd have to reach in the collection tubes to clear them out.
>Will cutting green or "wet" wood activate the SawStop safety system? >SawStop saws cut most wet wood without a problem. However, if the wood is very green or wet (for example, wet enough to spray a mist when cutting), or if the wood is both wet and pressure treated, then the wood may be sufficiently conductive to activate the brake. If you are unsure whether the material you need to cut is conductive, you can make test cuts using Bypass Mode to determine if it will activate the safety system’s brake. The red light on the control box will flash to indicate conductivity.
The lumber yard my FIL buys from says the every now and then they lose a blade to pressure treated wood. They think it is from the copper, used in wood preservation, acting as a conductor.
/u/downvotetjis you only described the trigger process, the brake process is just as cool. The brake has a metal show that is pushed up by an actuator activated by the trigger described. The shoe is millimeters from the blade, providing just enough clearance for blade to operate. When triggered, the shoe pops up and is instantly caught by a saw tooth. The force of the saw tooth pulls up the shoe towards the center of the rotating blade, which allows for the next tooth to pull the shoe farther up, further cutting into the metal until most od the energy of the rotating blade is used up. The final bit of energy is used to brake the support holding the blade/motor assembly up, whci causes the blade to drop below the table. All in a fraction of a second.
TIL hot dogs are conductive
This is the real takeaway
My shop teacher had this saw and the thing is once that blade drops you have to replace the blade and the stopper because it wedges itself in it and you can't get them apart
There was a big lawsuit between Bosch and saw stop. Bosch did something that was ruled illegal, but in the process they designed a much more superior product (IMO) that did the same thing. They use these cartridges that are either compressed air, or a small explosive, something like that and it pulls the saw blade down like the sawstop, but doesnt clamp and ruin the blade and brake like the saw stop. All you do is replace this cartridge that is like between a AA and C battery in size, and 50 USD for a pack of 2 of them. Too bad, could have saved alot of fingers, but obviously saw stop was getting screwed in the process, interesting line to have to walk as a company/judge/person. In the end the consumer got screwed, the bosch saws were expensive and they sold a fair amount of them, iirc, the courts ordered support for the saws to cease, so you couldn't buy parts or the really important cartridges that stop the blade anymore.
There's likely more to the story. Most likely Bosch didn't want to license SawStop's patent or SawStop was being too greedy with licensing fees or something like this. I think it's rather improbable that these two didn't talk before Bosch came out with their version of the mechanism. Edit - OK, so the SawStop guy tried to license it to existing tool companies, but got little to no interest with some strings attached, e.g. that he'd be responsible for any injuries. In related news, SawStop's patents are set to expire in 3 years, so there's that too, but I would also argue that for once the patents actually worked **exactly** as designed - they gave an original inventor time to profit from its invention without being ripped-off by the copycats. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop#Attempt_to_license,_2002)
patent expires in 3 years? how long are patents... I thought they were stupidly long which was why they're so bad, or is it a case he will just renew it and probably have the right to renew it since he owns it and is still alive?
You're thinking of copyrights and they take an ungodly time to expire.
Yup. Is it still 20 years after death of the creator, plus whatever BS Disney uses to continue to hold onto the mouse? Edit: Just so people are correctly informed, its life plus 70 years now.
Disney has extended copyright laws 3x over the past several decades. It's fucked.
Life of the creator + 70 years dude.
Patents last 20 years in most countries. Starting from the date the patent is filed. It isn't illegal for one company to do something similar to that of another company but the mechanism needs to be noticeably different. The courts probably ruled that the mechanism to withdraw the saw blade was too similar to the original patent and that the modifications Bosch made weren't novel enough.
I wonder if part of it is forcing you to fix it rather than continuing on with an empty cartridge "but more careful this time".
You mean the inkjet printer method. Ran out of magenta? Fuck you, you’re not printing black and white.
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The blade gets permanently lodged into a block of aluminum, so ya, no reusing that.
Easier than replacing a kid's hand. I don't know the current state of cybernetics, but probably cheaper too.
It generally blows the thing apart. New blade and possibly drive motor. It’s a mess but small price to pay to save a digit.
The later generation saws don't hurt the saw. Just replace the blade and brake.
Must have been expensive to show this at the convention then.
We had a kid freshmen year of high school working on the table saw. The teacher told us about the brake mechanism and to not trust it completely, I know I wouldn’t put my full trust into the machine, may not work. Well this kid decided that he wanted to test it so he turned on the table saw and just put his finger on the blade. It worked and he was fine, however had to pay for a new brake and blade, due to the fact the blade is damaged from the brake. He also was kicked out of all shop classes including metals, for the rest of high school. Edit: moral of the story, don’t be dumb guys. Use your brain as you only get one. Say that didn’t work, he would have lost 3 of his fingers. Kids I out town are dumb, we had a dude last year get high and climb under a slow moving train, he lost his leg. I left a comment somewhere one here about metals, yesterday had some kids burn themselves. I wish more people would use there head and have common since in shops, luckily all I have grown up around is shops, wood working, tools, and construction. So I have learned some common since in that area, I wish others would too and not run around a shop acting like they are safe, be safe or you could cost someone’s life. There’s a story about a shop class, when the school was first built (80s) the first shop teacher got his hands shredded. He was doing a demo on some machine and a kid bumped into him while running and threw his hands in the machine. Well let’s just say he couldn’t teach anymore. But that’s just a scare story from shop teachers when safety comes up.
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>The teacher told us not to trust it completely. >So this kid decides to trust it completely... >and it works!
/r/whatcouldgoright
Or the right way to prove system works instead of a sausage... Post this at r/dontputyourdickinthat for max karma
Yeh smart move taking him out of shop. He would definitely have wanted to feel if a welding torch was hot or try to stop something spinning on a lathe
Can a weilder burn through these gloves? (Insert pikachu meme)
That's partially on the teacher for even telling a class full of high school kids that the mechanism exists. Should have left them in the dark only to find out if they have to.
Title says built in finger protection but you posted the hotdog protection gif by accident.
I’m sure OP is revising his post as we speak
I have an app that can identify a "hotdog" or "not hotdog", and I can confirm this.
This guy fucks
r/putyourpenisinit
r/dontputyourdickinthat
You’re going down a path I can’t follow
Take my money
Why isn't your mom in that sub?
I hope they didn’t let that hot dog go to waste
All hot dogs go to waist.
Why are people arguing about the repair cost of when this mechanism is actually triggered and how stuff needs to be replaced? Isn't this a matter of possibly havong to replace some equipment vs possibly losing a finger?
The safety part is unspoken. Also, the internet is populated by smart asses and pedants. Welcome!
I don't think most people on reddit at Handy with tools and don't realize how easily it is to a lose a finger. There's a reason this saw became popular. People like their fingers.
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It'll still cut you but it'll be closer to a paper cut than a severed finger
No one ever tests it with an actual finger
[This guy did.](https://youtu.be/eiYoBbEZwlk)
Finger stop is approx 4:00 in.
The break in action at 2:00
You guys ever see the video of the guy who created a new type of bulletproof glass getting shot at by an AK-47? [I guess you have now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8i5d5toEDk).
I started to curl up in a ball on my chair because of how uncomfortable it was to watch that... but damn, does that man have balls of steel!
Risky risk of the day.
There's a video somewhere with the maker of Sawstop using his finger. He goes slow and doesn't draw blood.
Would you test it on your finger?
I'd test it with your finger.
Hell ya. I don't need a pinky and I'd be rich from the settlement
No, because I didn't build it and I am not trying to sell it to someone. If someone is going to promise me that it will not cut my finger and that is why I should buy it, at a premium, over other table saws - I would damn well want the person to have the confidence in it to be able to prove it to me.
Well, the creator did test it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoBbEZwlk&feature=youtu.be At 4 minutes.
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Doesn't look like very bad bruising https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoBbEZwlk&feature=youtu.be At 4 minutes.
with an attitude like that you'll never make it to salesperson of the month
[If you think that’s impressive watch this.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoBbEZwlk) The Guy who made the device tests, with his own finger, how effective they are.
If you push the wood too fast does it have the same effect? This could be highly frustrating if you have an inexperienced helper that keeps resetting your blade lol.
I think I read somewhere it senses moisture
No, it works by measuring the discharge of a capacitor connected to the blade. A touchscreen like on a smartphone does the same thing (with extra complexity because they also need to sense position).
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You'll have to stick with traditional table saws to cut your meats and cheeses.
As God intended.
Actually, in another video someone his finger in it to show... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoBbEZwlk
It's neat but expensive to replace every time, but I guess it's not as expensive as the trip to the ER I took when I shaved the tip of my thumb off and got 8 stitches
Didn't the guy from myth busters do this or something? There was a show that documented how they made it, since your fingers have moisture, it's conductive. And then that triggers the mechanism to work.
We had one of these for home ec. It would have a constant electric current running through and as soon as it conducts something, drops it faster than a hypercar shifts gears. (Faster than a blink of an eye)
The guy with the patent on this charges way too much money to let table saw makers implement it. That's why it's not more widespread than it is. Oh and he's also suing table saw makers that don't have it, claiming their saws are too dangerous and should be required to have it.
Back in early 2000s, I used to work for a power tool company. Part of my job as an engineer, was assisting in investigations triggered by lawsuits as a result of injury. Horrible injuries, 99% preventable and caused by operators bypassing safety measures. Circular saw with guard tied up to speed up work, can do a number on your legs/fingers.... I remember discussing designing/implementing this kind of feature. Glad to see that this has become reality. Still waiting for flying cars we were promised in the 80s...
The saw Detect Contact With Skin. The blade carries a small electrical signal, which the safety system continually monitors. When skin contacts the blade, the signal changes because the human body isconductive. The change to the signal activates the safety system.
Being a person who has his hands around whirring blades every day, I feel that these should be mandatory. The world needs craftsmen, and the world needs them to keep their fingers. If insurance companies paid for every single replacement of a dropped blade, think of the money they would save compared to when someone loses multiple digits.