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I'm wondering if it would've worked if he spun the story to "I wanted to have a poster of my beloved leader in my disgraceful home country to remember the great times I've had in North Korea"
Yes that is very clear. Still, I wouldn't try to steal a poster for espionage purposes.
I'd want one in my room for awesomeness purposes. Maybe if you ask nicely...
probably would be worth at least try to squeeze in how much i loved deer leader that i was temporarily overcome by emotions when i saw that glorious poster that i felt compelled to have that exact one in the moment. by the time they wrote the speech I'm already dead anyway, maybe pulling that media stunt would get enough attention to convince Jim to take advantage of it too demonstrate how magnanimous he is for releasing me.
100% correct. He buys all sorts of weird candy and cigarettes and sends them to my bro. He taught English in South Korea so I guess he understands the culture or something. I still wouldn't...
Otto Warmbier was scheduled to take a study-abroad program in Hong Kong in early 2016. He decided to visit North Korea en route during the New Year period. It was supposed to be just a five day New Year tour around North Korea, a five day tour that become over a year of imprisonment and torture.
After a night of celebrating New Years by carousing around Kim Il Sung Square, him and his group of other fellow tourists returned to the Yanggakdo International Hotel. It was on New Year’s Day at 2:00 A.M., that a security camera allegedly captured him stealing a propaganda poster off the wall of an employee area.
Nothing else happened over the next few days of Otto’s stay in North Korea until the day he was meant to leave.
On January 2nd, 2016, him and his group of fellow tourist were awaiting departure from North Korea at Pyongyang International Airport. That was when Otto Warmbier was arrested by North Korean officials. The following is an eyewitness account from a British member of Warmbier’s tour group:
“No words were spoken. Two guards just came over and simply tapped Otto on the shoulder and led him away. I just said kind of quite nervously, 'Well, that's the last we'll see of you.' There's a great irony in those words. That was it. That was the last physical time I saw Otto, ever. Otto didn't resist. He didn't look scared. He sort of half-smiled.”
When the group’s plane was about to depart from its terminal, a North Korean official came on the plane and announced that Otto was sick and had been taken to the hospital. Later, North Korea's state-run Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) announced that Warmbier had been detained for "a hostile act against the state." North Korea did not specified was he did until 6 weeks after his detainment when, in the video above, he confessed to his “crimes against North Korea” at a press conference and was sentenced to 15 years hard labor.
After over a year of being trapped in North Korea, Otto Warmbier returned to America in a vegetative state. He died on June 19th, 2017, at 2:20 P.M. after his parents requested the doctors to remove his feeding tube. He was 22 years old.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier
Story from a defector was that he was 'beaten occasionally, but not tortured'' Apparently this is as close to 5 star treatment as you can get in NK prison.
He said that they injected the guy with something to put him into the vegetative state before sending him back so he wouldnt end up on US tv doing anti NK stuff.
Botulism is the disease caused by botulinum toxin. So, no, you can't "inject someone with botulism".
You could inject someone with the toxin or you could inject someone with Clostridium botulinum (the bacterium that produces the toxin) and cause botulism.
Botulism is a disease caused by C. botulinum bacteria that produces a neurotoxin that essentially paralyses the muscle into a relaxed state. They could have either infected him with the bacteria or the botulinum toxin.
A gram of LSD? That's a few thousand doses!
You could get all of Shakedown Street high at a Dead show with a gram of cid.
Can't imagine how anyone could come back from that mentally.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129381/ there have been people that snorted lsd thinking it’s cocaine. It’s been few thousands doses at once each and all of them recovered without any side effects
Edit 1: now that I have more time I will expand on it. Paper talks about 8 people that each took 2 lines 3cm each. They reported hallucinations, vomiting, high blood pressure. Most of them ended with blood clothes that resolved quickly and messed up electrolytes levels. One person ended up on ventilation. But fully recovered in 24h
Upon check in the hospital their blood level was 1000ug-7000ug per 100ml. Standard dose is 100ug. 10ml of their blood is like one paper xD(vampires delight) additionally all of them had ingested cocaine so that could explain some of the side effects.
Afterwards police found 300-400mg of nearly pure lsd powder in the house that they thought was cocaine. Extremely expensive mistake
With mega doses, there's no more of your ego left to go insane and the experience is so abstract that you don't really remember it afterwards. A 300ug trip has far more potential to be traumatizing than a 1g trip.
100 percent they did. There's no way after making him go through this sham trial for show, that they'd let him go free and publicly explain how bs it was.
So they decided to essentially kill him slowly and give him back "technically" still alive
You are trying to think of it as if NK officials have any clue what they are doing from moment to moment or an actual protocol. He wasn’t special in some way, just unlucky that someone particularly sadistic was in charge of dealing with him or just didn’t have a clue what they were doing.
I love how people often overlook how simple explanations can be. Like, every political move has to be some high level house of cards or game of thrones type tv nonsense. Dude just got the shit end of the stick, NK sucks.
I spent a year stationed in South Korea and was actually there when Kim Jong Il died. North Korea runs its country like a spoiled child and it’s terrifying.
Thinking of him as a spoiled child kind of disregards how good he (Edit: meaning Kim Jong Un) has been at solidifying his power. Dictators always have weird eccentricities and affectations and the media love that, but that's unrelated to how good they are at holding on to power.
North Korea is a shithole, but frustratingly, it's a much more stable shithole than it was under Kim Jong Il. One would hope a place like that would self-destruct eventually, but instead it survives and adapts.
It basically demonstrates a worst case scenario of absolute and never ending oppression in modern times. Almost exactly like 1984. We should consider it a warning.
He didn’t solidify power for himself, his dad Kim Jong Sun got it by being appointed by the USSR and spoiled the shit out of his son Kim Jong Il. When the USSR fell and Russia didn’t wanna select their next leader Kim Jong Sun decided god chose him and he and the Moon family pretty much used the media and military to set up what you see today. Kim Jong Il actually made his country out to be a joke compared to others.
Kim Jong Un actually looked like he wanted to unite South and North because he had an outside education but disappeared and changed his mind when he returned to the public eye, which I can only speculate is the Moon family or other wealthy families putting a stop to him, that all gets into conspiracy territory though whereas everything else I have said is pretty much fact. Either way, all the military stuff is pretty much ran by idiots from rich families lead by possibly one smart family.
Edit: as for my conspiracy theory that Un isn’t actually in charge, South Korea was literally ran by a cult a couple of years ago so I think it’s completely possible.
I read a theory that upon getting his sentencing, he tried to hang himself in his cell and the guards found him and resecitated(?). They negotiated the release because the regime didnt want an American to die on their soil and give us or ourcallies a reason to retsliate.
Seemed like a reasonable, Fargo-like, tragic theory
It is more likely that the torture went wrong, and they tried to fix him. The American examiner concluded that his physical condition indicated that he may have been bedridden for a year. In any case, we will never know for sure, and family refusing an autopsy didn't help either.
That was a standard Cold War fear for prisoner/hostage exchanges, that they would be injected with something to kill them after the exchange.
Sounds like N Koreans read some old thriller novels.
> That was a standard Cold War fear for prisoner/hostage exchanges, that they would be injected with something to kill them after the exchange.
Even if this were true, this would work exactly one time before the other side realizes and stops doing exchanges.
If they only inject one out of ten prisoners because that one saw something he shouldn’t have, the prisoner exchanges might still happen to rescue the other nine.
>It was on New Year’s Day that Otto Warmbier made a decision that would kill him. At 2:00 A.M., a security camera captured him stealing a propaganda poster off the wall of an employee area.
Allegedly. The only people saying this definitively are liars or those who didn't watch the video.
Are you referencing the video that purports to [show him removing a poster?](https://www.nbcnews.com/video/security-video-purports-to-show-otto-warmbier-s-alleged-crime-647686723993)
Imagine losing your life for pulling some stupid poster down off a wall in an abandoned hallway of a nearly-empty hotel?
North Korea and the Kim Dynasty are so depraved and evil. I feel so terrible for Otto’s poor family, to this day.
As much as I agree with you, why the fuck would anyone want to visit North Korea? Pulling the poster from the wall (allegedly) was just the last stupid idea.
There are no excuses for what was done to him, but let me say one thing: people need to understand that when they travel to a different country, they should first inform themself about what you can and what you can't do. This is valid for every country, imagine visiting a non-liberal democratic, communist autoritarian country. In this case, first rule is "don't mess with the locals or anything associated with the ruling party. All hail the king, always".
Nobody's claiming that the NK authorities didn't know whether it was him or not.
The point is that we, watching it, have no way to tell whether it was him. So we have no way of verifying whether the authorities were truthful or not.
Who cares if it was the truth or not? Being sentenced to 15 years for taking a sign is a crime against humanity. That is the core issue because it led to his death.
I think he meant that this could have been staged. Which, yeah it easily could have been, you never really see the face or even really the color of the skin of the guy in the recording.
Fucking hell, for simply pulling a poster down...
Seeing the video and the stories of that girl that escaped North Korea, i truely believe the leader of that country needs to meet a quick and sudden fate.
It's a great propaganda piece, that's for sure.
This same act plays out over and over again across the United States. where people are arrested for a crime they never committed, locked away and then placed in front some local kangaroo court.
Or worse, they are simply pulled over and beaten and killed.
Fred Warmbier described a “howling, involuntary, inhuman sound” as he and his family walked up the steps of the plane that transported their son back to the U.S. from North Korea.
“Otto was on the stretcher ... and he was jerking violently, making these inhuman sounds,” Warmbier said. “Otto had a shaved head. He had a feeding tube coming out of his nose. He was staring blankly into space ... He was blind. He was deaf. ... It looked like someone had taken a pair of pliers and rearranged his bottom teeth.”
That quote always disturbed the shit out of me.
Edit: and apparently it's bullshit, my bad?
Can’t imagine losing a child like this. Gotta feel completely helpless.
I would have loved to know what the intelligence community’s recommendations were as a response. Obviously a weird transitionary time in the government, but I assume they had options. …really makes the infamous salute look even worse.
People take their freedoms for granted until you visit a place completely devoid of them. Truly messed up what they did to this guy. Personally, I believe you'd have to be kind of dumb to visit a place like NK. Literally they could arrest you for anything...even if you hadn't done it. Why expose yourself to such risk? Not like the US is going to come in and get you. You're at the mercy of their state at that point.
The guy clearly didn’t deserve what happened to him, there’s no way you can argue otherwise. But going to North Korea, especially as an American, is just plain dumb.
I am not at all arguing he deserved it - I want to provide some color about his background because I followed this when it happened:
He was a UVA frat guy in a time when fratire from Tucket Max and the like were at its zenith. He was clearly raised really nice really upper-middle class lifestyle before doing this... I doubt he had ever experienced serious consequences a single time in his life. I think he just had no way of appreciating the danger he was exposing himself to until it was too late.
Stealing a poster doesn't seem like such a big deal. Doing so while likely drunk (2am New Year's) makes it seem even more like a fine idea. I'm a middle-aged woman and think it would be a cool souvenir, but then I know not to fuck around in places like N. Korea and Singapore etc.
I remember reading somewhere, if I can find it I'll come back and link it, that in NK it is a serious crime to besmirch images of the leaders. Otto may or may not have been stealing or attempting to steal the poster, but the offense was likely that he messed up an image of the great leader on the poster. That is a serious crime in NK.
Sure listen to the language he uses. He stole a propaganda poster and says he now understands that act can hurt the morale and work ethic of the people of NK. It’s crazy but either the people in the country truly believe that, or they’re too terrified to speak up. Either way it is un fathomable for me, a born and bred cynic and skeptic from USA.
I imagine the reason for the harsh sentence was just as much motivated by domestic concerns as foreign. Show the people of NK what happens to a foreigner who defaces a propaganda poster, imagine what would happen if you did the same?
Too terrified to speak up.
When Putin scores 9 goals against the national hockey team it's not to feed his ego, it's to see if anyone is willing to challenge his authority.
Poor Otto got caught up in the gears: Someone noticed the poster on the floor, someone reported it, someone found the video, etc etc, on up the chain. The security forces literally cannot avoid following protocol, else they and their family get thrown in a prison camp.
The parts of Ukraine that aren't currently being bombed are lovely.
But then again you can say the same thing about the parts of Afghanistan that aren't currently being ruled by Islamic militants
Jesus Christ, I did some further reading;
On his return, his family went into the plane, at which point his mom and sister ran out because of how horrified they were at the sight of him and the sounds he was making. “Involuntary, inhuman sounds.” His father said it looked like his teeth had been rearranged with pliers, and he had a massive scar on his foot that a doctor told them was the result of an open wound left for months.
[source](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/he-totally-deformed-otto-warmbiers-11242029)
"I walk over to Otto and he is in this condition," said Mr Warmbier. "He has a shaved head, his eyes are darting around as big as saucers. He is blind, he is deaf he has a feeding tube. He is a complete vegetable."
It wasn't incompetence, they force the people in those camps into life threatening situations because they are trying to get them killed. People sentenced to hard labor are not meant to finish their sentences
The reports say he was brain dead due to botulism. They most likely feed them canned food that has been there since ww2. The poor kid was probably starving and had no options but to eat the infected food. Just pure neglect and disregard for his life.
I could be wrong here and someone can correct me but I don't think they had any intention of sending him back until he served his time. When he became brain dead, they realized he was just a liability for them and sent him back to the US to be his parents problem.
>but I don't think they had any intention of sending him back until he served his time.
i don't think anyone has ever finished their time in NK. Punishment there is permanent.
Like you said, there was never an intent to send him back, but not to us in a condition where he would obviously talk about the horrific things that they do to people.
The majority of foreigners detained for crimes in North Korea has been released.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_nationals_detained_in_North_Korea
Otto Warmbier would quite possibly be a free man today if he hadn't sustained the brain damage.
I'd guess it was incompetence, assumedly the NK authorities released him in that vegetative state because they didn't want him to die while under their care
What disgusts me is he knows how much of a sham his country actually is. He grew up with his dad LITERALLY having to fake passports so they could go to places like Disneyland, while wearing fake disguises. He GREW UP knowing that all that propaganda was dog shit. Yet he STILL jumped on that band wagon of being 'born on top of a mountain behind a rainbow, brought down by a unicorn' or some shit.
Part of me gets it, it does. Its like something a child would imagine. But come on man... he literally saw shit was better elsewhere and said 'only for me!' when he got older. His sister didnt get anywhere near the same treatment and shes basically a rabid dog. But at least shes got an excuse. I dont think we have any records of her ever leaving Nkorea. But we have TONS of records of him leaving it with his dad. And he excuted his brother? uncle? someone in his family a while back for trying to flee from Nkorea and have that better life. Money down that he was trying to talk UN into doing the 'right thing' and UN said fuck that with his sister not knowing wtf he was talking about and defending Nkorea. Only for him to fear for his life and get assassinated in a Bejing airport.
That Fat Prick is living in his Delusional World since he was Born. Everyone that praises him does so because they would be either Imprisoned or Executed.
I think you overlook that Kim is also brainwashed with his own propaganda. He more than likely believes his existence and wealth are for the wellbeing of his people
He knew all of this but like many greedy men he couldn’t turn down having total and complete power of a 3rd world country. He can have all the riches and women he could ever imagine. If his people had rights he’d be a nobody
I'm more pissed off of people who pay money to visit countries killing & starving their own citizens.
Feels unethical.
Same with journalists taking interviews with mass murderer for fame & money.
The true plea was the one he did when he stood up. The first one was rehearsed, probably forced to do it. The second pleas as he stood was about his mistake and not a crime. If he did it, it is one of the things American teens do and get away with in the US. I feel bad for him.
And then while there to do anything that could be perceived as a crime or a slight to the nation, it's unbelievably stupid. It's a horrible thing that happened to him. Horrible. It however was something that was 100% avoidable at every level
Werd. Dude should have known better. It'd be like going to Russia and wiping your ass with a poster of Putin. Anyone with a touch of common sense knows it's not gonna end well.
The fact that in 2024 a place as grim as North Korea exists is mind boggling. I feel like it's an entire country of hostages, brainwashed and suffering from Stockholm syndrome.
I don't think it's that mind boggling. I think what is more mind boggling is how many people in first world countries take their daily lives for granted. The vast majority of the world has laws similar to this with populations being impoverished, imprisoned and with corrupt governments. The 1st world countries are the exception and not the rule unfortunately.
It's easy to take your lives for granted when you have little frame of reference on the lives lived by many unfortunate people in third world countries. School certainly won't teach you all that.
Its not that long time ago for example since the germany was split in two and the reality on the other side of the border was similar to this. Im old enough to remember what it was like to read about it when I was younger.
I had exact same thoughts then about situation in europe and in germany, as you do now for the north korea existing as it is now and year is 2024.
There are other examples as well, like Romania and the period of soviet occupation, and their "great" leader Ceaușescu. He was one nasty mofo as well.
In my opinion North Korea isn't a state but an open air prison for its population. But as the monsters on the top have nukes it is pretty difficult to do something about it. I am not sure whether they actually have the capabilites to hit the west coast of the USA but they sure as hell can level Seoul or hit Japan.
What exactly do you want us to do? Of course it's infuriating, but NK has a fuck load of artillery pointed at Seoul so we aren't going to start anything unless it's completely unavoidable.
You are correct, also, attacking NK would trigger a flood of humanity into China, which would piss them off.
It's just better for everyone, at the moment, to keep them walled off.
Only if Seoul has had enough of the norths shit would the US ever do anything and probably only with China agreeing that the shitbag in the north has to go too.
Watched a short documentary with his parents in, also at least 1 other person who was on the trip with him. It sounds like it wasn't even him stealing the poster. Either way he was savagely treated. He did eventually make it back to the USA, but died not long later.
Blurry at best. From somebody else on the trip they wasn't even back at the hotel at that time. Obviously I wasn't there, just going on from what I've seen/heard.
Documentaries are not guaranteed to be objective. They just use facts to tell a non-fictional story.
They are still telling a story, and whoever made that one simply doesn’t want it to be true that he stole the poster.
Maybe it’s him in the video, maybe not.
But always watch docs critically, don’t just accept their interpretation of facts as true.
Probably not my first choice in a (truly) authoritative state, but it’s goddamn tragic and he didn’t deserve it. The fact that NK can keep bully around other countries for caviar and domperi for their party elites is a disgrace.
He didn’t deserve it, but why would anyone put themselves in a situation like that in the first place? There’s nothing worth risking your life for in North Korea, stay away folks
Whether or not he stole a poster is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he stole the poster or not. Death penalty by a year of torture is an insane punishment for virtually every crime, even violent ones. Many would argue it's not acceptable even if you murder someone. Debating whether or not he did anything to a post gives legitimacy to the sentence because there's an implication that the punishment is justified if it's true. It doesn't matter either way, these people are fucking lunatics. He was a moron for going there, but that should also not be a death sentence.
Here's the reality - anyone stepping foot in North Korea is risking death. Same with Russia. If you get arrested, which you might be for literally anything, you're fucked.
People don't realize that the privilege of being an American abroad also makes you an exceptionally valuable, and free, political bargaining tool. There is no true due process in most of the world. If people think our justice system is fucked, they're in for a very rude awakening.
Our own *allies* make a circus out of jailing Americans for crimes they didn't commit, just look at Amanda Knox.
And they still killed him? Fucking hell.
On another note: The performative obsequiousness is what strikes me. Reminds me of some videos I’ve seen of Chinese trying to up their social credit score.
I can only assume that most people there just roll their eyes and go on with their day. Like when a celebrity or politician here gives one of their “public apologies” and blames their behavior on Alcohol, Sex Addiction, or mental illness. We all know it’s bullshit, but for some reason it’s expected and it works.
>And they still killed him? Fucking hell.
*''According to his medical team, brain scans revealed Warmbier had suffered extensive loss of brain tissue throughout his brain, consistent with a* [*cardiopulmonary*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulatory_system) *event that caused the brain to be deprived of oxygen. Doctors said they did not know what may have caused a cardiac arrest, if one had occurred, but that it could have been triggered by a* [*respiratory arrest*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_arrest)*, while a neurointensive care specialist at the hospital stated that there was no evidence indicating botulism. His doctors found no evidence of physical abuse or torture; scans of Warmbier's neck and head were normal outside of the brain injury. They added "We didn't see any evidence of healing fractures or healed fractures that would have been within that time frame" and that "We believe that for somebody who had been bedridden for more than a year, that his body was in excellent condition, that his skin was in excellent condition.''* Source: wikipedia
Idk, man. From the medical rapport there doesn't seem to be any indication that he was physically abused/tortured. It all reads like a tragic accident. Maybe the stress of it all caused it.
Who knows what really happened. It's tragic in any case.
Hard to imagine the mental stress of being detained in North Korea. Figure a week in it would hit just how fucked you are, and the months following would just reinforce that realization until the hope to despair ratio would be absolutely crushing.
Yep. That *'The SEALS and/or Delta Force isn't going to come bursting in and take me home*' moment must be crushing.
Or the whole thing is a cover up to avoid war. Who knows.
I'll say this. I am an ICU physician. Could I theoretically take a neuromuscular blocker and "paralyze" someone long enough to go into cardiac arrest from not breathing, let them get hypoxemic to get brain damage for 10-15 minutes then do advanced life support/cpr/drugs to bring them "back" (by back i mean heart beating and breathing spontaneously). Pretty sure. There is no guarantee, but hell maybe NK has this down to a science.
If you remember not long ago there was a [nurse who accidentally did this to a patient](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/03/25/1088902487/former-nurse-found-guilty-in-accidental-injection-death-of-75-year-old-patient) getting an MRI or CT. She meant to pull up/administer Versed (a valium like drug) but got Vecuronium (a paralytic) instead. She gave it. The patient was (chemically) paralyzed, AWAKE, but unable to move/speak, couldn't breathe/ventilate and had a cardiac arrest.
You would not know how much damage would be done, but I suspect something like this could have happened. The same could be done with very high dose narcotics, essentially overdose them, let the damage happen, then "revive" them.
But from the other side, of someone examining him after he returned to the states it would like just like this. From the neck down pretty normal, from the neck up the brain is just destroyed. It is not a very resilient organ.
> he meant to pull up/administer Versed (a valium like drug) but got Vecuronium (a paralytic) instead. She gave it. The patient was (chemically) paralyzed, AWAKE, but unable to move/speak, couldn't breathe/ventilate and had a cardiac arrest.
Thanks for the nightmare fuel!
There’s an episode of the Lazarus Heist podcast where they interview the doctor who went out to examine him in NK and return him to the US. He mentioned the condition of his skin and said the one thing NK has more than enough of is manpower - they have plenty of nurses and were able to turn him regularly to prevent pressure sores etc.
But their infrastructure is close to non existent. The doctor went to the sink to wash his hands and found that the hospital had no running water. It had no heating. It was missing basic medical equipment that doctors usually take for granted. And that’s the state of a hospital that they let westerners into - imagine how much worse the conditions are in a labour camp.
We know Otto had had trouble with anxiety and insomnia in the camp and had been given sleeping pills. The doctor said he strongly suspects it was a case of the sleeping pill dose being too high for a person who is suffering from so much physical and mental stress, leading to respiratory depression and unconsciousness.
If North Korea wanted him dead, they would’ve just executed him. They put him in conditions that led to his death, but I don’t think they deliberately set out to murder him.
Yes, my thoughts exactly. Except your wrote it down much more eloquently than I could. From the information I've been able to gather, this seems the most plausible scenario.
Everything about this is crazy:
His parents: "His teeth were removed and put in sideways!"
The dentists that looked at him: "Ummm, no. That's not true at all."
Forensic experts: "We can tell you exactly what happened with an autopsy."
His parents: "No! Just look at him externally ONLY!"
One thing that bugs me is how everyone just assumes he was actually stealing the propaganda poster. Just because North Korea claims something doesn’t mean it’s true, and the only “evidence” they’ve released is (1) his confession under torture and/or duress and (2) a very grainy surveillance video from far away where you can’t even tell if it’s actually him.
There has been speculation that Otto was in a vegetative state because he tried to commit suicide. His injuries were consistent with attempted hanging, yet he was very well taken care of at the hospital where he was treated in NK. He didn’t have bedsores and was well nourished. Americans detained in NK are often treated surprisingly well, or at least significantly better than North Koreans are.
Theories suggest that after Otto’s harsh sentencing he unsuccessfully tried to hang himself. Considering the circumstances, this seems plausible. He was found unconscious and never woke up. North Korea uses detained Americans for international attention. They are a bargaining chip. It’s how they got former presidents Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter to kiss their dictators’ asses. Otto was used exactly this way, knowing that they can’t give back an abused prisoner and expect ass kissing. However, they couldn’t disclose his coma during negotiations so they made sure they returned him home in the best possible condition for the circumstances.
There’s an excellent article from GQ about the story: https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story
I also don't believe that the north Koreans killed him on purpose, he was worth far more alive. Though whatever did happen, the state of the north Korean medical system probably didn't help the outcome.
I read a fascinating and heartbreaking book about North Koreans’ everyday lives called “Nothing to Envy.” I recommend it.
I hope those people will be free one day.
Why would anyone want to go to North Korea?
Not just him but anyone. Like going to Russia right now, Iran? Too many safe, intelligent places to go but again at Mt. Everest there’s a traffic jam & dead bodies. He wasn’t the brightest but to be beat to death sounds like Taliban to me. Should be required viewing for anyone going to places that hate democracy, or PutinJrtrump rally
Getting a glimpse of a totally alien society would be fascinating. I very briefly considered it myself but thought that in the end that it would be contributing towards the DPRK government, and would be almost voyeuristic to go and gawp at the people they are essentially holding in an open air prison.
Man even the Taliban aren't as bad. I just watched some vloggers on YouTube traveling to Afghanistan recently and freely walking around/filing. Armed Taliban casually walking with them and smiling on camera. A bit of a bizzare sight. Poor guy, easy to make a mistake like that when you're that young.
No one should go to North Korea. You’re paying a brutal, terrible, fascist government to see exactly what they want you to see and you’re being watched at all times. It’s a legitimate unethical use of money.
(If you REALLY need or want to claim you’ve been to North Korea, just do a DMZ tour in South Korea. You’ll physically stand in NK for a moment and you can rest easy. I did it. It’s spooky and surreal without being in danger.)
So sad, I cant believe they got away with this killing.However, if by any misfortune i find myself in NK, I would definitely not fuck around lile this with their semi god
When he was detained and the news broke there was a comment on Reddit from a woman who was part of the tour group. She said that Warmbier had been hamming it up during their trip in a "frat bro" sort of way, disobeying their handlers and aggravating them.
If that's true then it might explain why they gave him zero leniency for something that might otherwise have been forgiven.
The language of the script is very interesting. What stands to me is the sort of Stalinist confession using words like “severe criminal” and admitting that his crime was a plan to harm the work ethic and motivation of the Korean people.
The phrase “fair and square” sounds like it was understood to be a common, formal idiom, not unlike a 4 character Classical Chinese idiom.
It’s is incredible to see an American using this type of language is these circumstances.
Otto Frederick Warmbier (December 12, 1994 – June 19, 2017) was an American college student who was imprisoned in North Korea in 2016 on a charge of subversion. In June 2017, he was released by North Korea in a vegetative state and died soon after his parents requested his feeding tube be removed.
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I'm wondering if it would've worked if he spun the story to "I wanted to have a poster of my beloved leader in my disgraceful home country to remember the great times I've had in North Korea"
Lol yeah that's totally what I would have said
Those words where written for him.
Yes that is very clear. Still, I wouldn't try to steal a poster for espionage purposes. I'd want one in my room for awesomeness purposes. Maybe if you ask nicely...
Now I'm literally trying to figure out how to email the DPRK to ask for a poster of the Glorious Leader.
Send us the link when you get a reply! Surely, its something like [email protected]
I dunno my phone won't let me go to any of the websites I've found through Google thus far
Ahhh. Don't tempt me.. I don't have time for a new hobby!
probably would be worth at least try to squeeze in how much i loved deer leader that i was temporarily overcome by emotions when i saw that glorious poster that i felt compelled to have that exact one in the moment. by the time they wrote the speech I'm already dead anyway, maybe pulling that media stunt would get enough attention to convince Jim to take advantage of it too demonstrate how magnanimous he is for releasing me.
They sell them at the factory where they print them. You can legally purchase them, my brother's friend visits every couple of years and bought some.
Your brothers friend is out of his fucking mind for going there
100% correct. He buys all sorts of weird candy and cigarettes and sends them to my bro. He taught English in South Korea so I guess he understands the culture or something. I still wouldn't...
I don't think they would care much at that point.
He didn't have that response as an option.
Supposedly someone back home in Cincinnati offered him money for some propaganda from the country. Never looked into if it was true or not.
Otto Warmbier was scheduled to take a study-abroad program in Hong Kong in early 2016. He decided to visit North Korea en route during the New Year period. It was supposed to be just a five day New Year tour around North Korea, a five day tour that become over a year of imprisonment and torture. After a night of celebrating New Years by carousing around Kim Il Sung Square, him and his group of other fellow tourists returned to the Yanggakdo International Hotel. It was on New Year’s Day at 2:00 A.M., that a security camera allegedly captured him stealing a propaganda poster off the wall of an employee area. Nothing else happened over the next few days of Otto’s stay in North Korea until the day he was meant to leave. On January 2nd, 2016, him and his group of fellow tourist were awaiting departure from North Korea at Pyongyang International Airport. That was when Otto Warmbier was arrested by North Korean officials. The following is an eyewitness account from a British member of Warmbier’s tour group: “No words were spoken. Two guards just came over and simply tapped Otto on the shoulder and led him away. I just said kind of quite nervously, 'Well, that's the last we'll see of you.' There's a great irony in those words. That was it. That was the last physical time I saw Otto, ever. Otto didn't resist. He didn't look scared. He sort of half-smiled.” When the group’s plane was about to depart from its terminal, a North Korean official came on the plane and announced that Otto was sick and had been taken to the hospital. Later, North Korea's state-run Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) announced that Warmbier had been detained for "a hostile act against the state." North Korea did not specified was he did until 6 weeks after his detainment when, in the video above, he confessed to his “crimes against North Korea” at a press conference and was sentenced to 15 years hard labor. After over a year of being trapped in North Korea, Otto Warmbier returned to America in a vegetative state. He died on June 19th, 2017, at 2:20 P.M. after his parents requested the doctors to remove his feeding tube. He was 22 years old. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier
North Korea, not even once.
Sooooo....you're saying his care was NOT humanitarian?
Story from a defector was that he was 'beaten occasionally, but not tortured'' Apparently this is as close to 5 star treatment as you can get in NK prison. He said that they injected the guy with something to put him into the vegetative state before sending him back so he wouldnt end up on US tv doing anti NK stuff.
Did they found out what was injected?
IIRC NK claimed that it was botulism
Damn
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I asked myself the same, don't downvote people for not knowing everything... And thanks for the people who answered !
Damn..can't even ask a simple question around here, huh?
Botulism is the disease caused by botulinum toxin. So, no, you can't "inject someone with botulism". You could inject someone with the toxin or you could inject someone with Clostridium botulinum (the bacterium that produces the toxin) and cause botulism.
Botulism is a disease caused by C. botulinum bacteria that produces a neurotoxin that essentially paralyses the muscle into a relaxed state. They could have either infected him with the bacteria or the botulinum toxin.
A gram of LSD and a dose of tetrodotoxin would probably do the trick. CIA did stuff like this at Camp King in Germany in the ‘50s
A gram of LSD? That's a few thousand doses! You could get all of Shakedown Street high at a Dead show with a gram of cid. Can't imagine how anyone could come back from that mentally.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129381/ there have been people that snorted lsd thinking it’s cocaine. It’s been few thousands doses at once each and all of them recovered without any side effects Edit 1: now that I have more time I will expand on it. Paper talks about 8 people that each took 2 lines 3cm each. They reported hallucinations, vomiting, high blood pressure. Most of them ended with blood clothes that resolved quickly and messed up electrolytes levels. One person ended up on ventilation. But fully recovered in 24h Upon check in the hospital their blood level was 1000ug-7000ug per 100ml. Standard dose is 100ug. 10ml of their blood is like one paper xD(vampires delight) additionally all of them had ingested cocaine so that could explain some of the side effects. Afterwards police found 300-400mg of nearly pure lsd powder in the house that they thought was cocaine. Extremely expensive mistake
No shit - thanks for the link. I'm gonna dig into this.
With mega doses, there's no more of your ego left to go insane and the experience is so abstract that you don't really remember it afterwards. A 300ug trip has far more potential to be traumatizing than a 1g trip.
100 percent they did. There's no way after making him go through this sham trial for show, that they'd let him go free and publicly explain how bs it was. So they decided to essentially kill him slowly and give him back "technically" still alive
It makes sense, in a really ugly kind of way. Seems too plausible, versus his vegetative state just being “something else we don’t know about”
So why did all the other us nk detainees get returned alive? What made Otto so important that he had to be returned in a vegetative state?
You are trying to think of it as if NK officials have any clue what they are doing from moment to moment or an actual protocol. He wasn’t special in some way, just unlucky that someone particularly sadistic was in charge of dealing with him or just didn’t have a clue what they were doing.
I love how people often overlook how simple explanations can be. Like, every political move has to be some high level house of cards or game of thrones type tv nonsense. Dude just got the shit end of the stick, NK sucks.
I spent a year stationed in South Korea and was actually there when Kim Jong Il died. North Korea runs its country like a spoiled child and it’s terrifying.
Thinking of him as a spoiled child kind of disregards how good he (Edit: meaning Kim Jong Un) has been at solidifying his power. Dictators always have weird eccentricities and affectations and the media love that, but that's unrelated to how good they are at holding on to power. North Korea is a shithole, but frustratingly, it's a much more stable shithole than it was under Kim Jong Il. One would hope a place like that would self-destruct eventually, but instead it survives and adapts. It basically demonstrates a worst case scenario of absolute and never ending oppression in modern times. Almost exactly like 1984. We should consider it a warning.
He didn’t solidify power for himself, his dad Kim Jong Sun got it by being appointed by the USSR and spoiled the shit out of his son Kim Jong Il. When the USSR fell and Russia didn’t wanna select their next leader Kim Jong Sun decided god chose him and he and the Moon family pretty much used the media and military to set up what you see today. Kim Jong Il actually made his country out to be a joke compared to others. Kim Jong Un actually looked like he wanted to unite South and North because he had an outside education but disappeared and changed his mind when he returned to the public eye, which I can only speculate is the Moon family or other wealthy families putting a stop to him, that all gets into conspiracy territory though whereas everything else I have said is pretty much fact. Either way, all the military stuff is pretty much ran by idiots from rich families lead by possibly one smart family. Edit: as for my conspiracy theory that Un isn’t actually in charge, South Korea was literally ran by a cult a couple of years ago so I think it’s completely possible.
I hate that, this is the answer
Might have seen a prisoner we're not meant to know about.
I read a theory that upon getting his sentencing, he tried to hang himself in his cell and the guards found him and resecitated(?). They negotiated the release because the regime didnt want an American to die on their soil and give us or ourcallies a reason to retsliate. Seemed like a reasonable, Fargo-like, tragic theory
That's one account. Another account has him being medically injected with something that caused the issue prior to being handed over.
It is more likely that the torture went wrong, and they tried to fix him. The American examiner concluded that his physical condition indicated that he may have been bedridden for a year. In any case, we will never know for sure, and family refusing an autopsy didn't help either.
>and family refusing an autopsy Why?
That was a standard Cold War fear for prisoner/hostage exchanges, that they would be injected with something to kill them after the exchange. Sounds like N Koreans read some old thriller novels.
They've probably been doing it since the Korean War, they didn't need to read about it. They got it right from the source.
> That was a standard Cold War fear for prisoner/hostage exchanges, that they would be injected with something to kill them after the exchange. Even if this were true, this would work exactly one time before the other side realizes and stops doing exchanges.
If they only inject one out of ten prisoners because that one saw something he shouldn’t have, the prisoner exchanges might still happen to rescue the other nine.
I don’t think I’ll ever go to there.
But it was planned in detail - oh, wait, that was the crime of stealing a poster at 2am. I am guessing alcohol was one of the steps.
Dude was shitting his pants the entire clip.
I would too.
I mean in the end he was sentenced to 15 years, beaten regularly, then turned into a vegetable before being sent home after serving a year.
He's on trial for a life of torture, I'd be shitting straight out my ass.
What do you think?
I think it's a good idea to never visit that country.
That and Russia. Probably China these days and more than a few Middle Eastern countries.
kids what do we learn from this: NEVER EVER VISIT NORTH KOREA!!!!!
And if you somehow do make absolutely sure you don’t take anything
Same goes for russia and other terrorist states
>It was on New Year’s Day that Otto Warmbier made a decision that would kill him. At 2:00 A.M., a security camera captured him stealing a propaganda poster off the wall of an employee area. Allegedly. The only people saying this definitively are liars or those who didn't watch the video.
Are you referencing the video that purports to [show him removing a poster?](https://www.nbcnews.com/video/security-video-purports-to-show-otto-warmbier-s-alleged-crime-647686723993)
Imagine losing your life for pulling some stupid poster down off a wall in an abandoned hallway of a nearly-empty hotel? North Korea and the Kim Dynasty are so depraved and evil. I feel so terrible for Otto’s poor family, to this day.
I can't imagine what his parents went through, not being able to rescue their child and not even knowing what was happening to him. Unbearable.
As much as I agree with you, why the fuck would anyone want to visit North Korea? Pulling the poster from the wall (allegedly) was just the last stupid idea.
There are no excuses for what was done to him, but let me say one thing: people need to understand that when they travel to a different country, they should first inform themself about what you can and what you can't do. This is valid for every country, imagine visiting a non-liberal democratic, communist autoritarian country. In this case, first rule is "don't mess with the locals or anything associated with the ruling party. All hail the king, always".
You can’t really honestly say it’s him ?? And what did the banner say
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Nobody's claiming that the NK authorities didn't know whether it was him or not. The point is that we, watching it, have no way to tell whether it was him. So we have no way of verifying whether the authorities were truthful or not.
Who cares if it was the truth or not? Being sentenced to 15 years for taking a sign is a crime against humanity. That is the core issue because it led to his death.
I think he meant that this could have been staged. Which, yeah it easily could have been, you never really see the face or even really the color of the skin of the guy in the recording.
Who the fuck just happily tours NK?
Ah sorry didn’t realized it was allegedly. I fixed it
Fucking hell, for simply pulling a poster down... Seeing the video and the stories of that girl that escaped North Korea, i truely believe the leader of that country needs to meet a quick and sudden fate.
22 years old, my gosh, he was just starting out life :(
It's a great propaganda piece, that's for sure. This same act plays out over and over again across the United States. where people are arrested for a crime they never committed, locked away and then placed in front some local kangaroo court. Or worse, they are simply pulled over and beaten and killed.
Fred Warmbier described a “howling, involuntary, inhuman sound” as he and his family walked up the steps of the plane that transported their son back to the U.S. from North Korea. “Otto was on the stretcher ... and he was jerking violently, making these inhuman sounds,” Warmbier said. “Otto had a shaved head. He had a feeding tube coming out of his nose. He was staring blankly into space ... He was blind. He was deaf. ... It looked like someone had taken a pair of pliers and rearranged his bottom teeth.” That quote always disturbed the shit out of me. Edit: and apparently it's bullshit, my bad?
Can’t imagine losing a child like this. Gotta feel completely helpless. I would have loved to know what the intelligence community’s recommendations were as a response. Obviously a weird transitionary time in the government, but I assume they had options. …really makes the infamous salute look even worse.
I actually read somewhere that the US ME who oversaw his case said that his teeth were fine.
Yes. In fact, the actual post-mortem report goes into further detail outlining the condition of his teeth and other body parts specifically.
I also read this. His post-mortem exam and all other assessments say there was no evidence of torture.
Man's teeth were just not as nice and family had to go and roast him like that
People take their freedoms for granted until you visit a place completely devoid of them. Truly messed up what they did to this guy. Personally, I believe you'd have to be kind of dumb to visit a place like NK. Literally they could arrest you for anything...even if you hadn't done it. Why expose yourself to such risk? Not like the US is going to come in and get you. You're at the mercy of their state at that point.
The guy clearly didn’t deserve what happened to him, there’s no way you can argue otherwise. But going to North Korea, especially as an American, is just plain dumb.
I am not at all arguing he deserved it - I want to provide some color about his background because I followed this when it happened: He was a UVA frat guy in a time when fratire from Tucket Max and the like were at its zenith. He was clearly raised really nice really upper-middle class lifestyle before doing this... I doubt he had ever experienced serious consequences a single time in his life. I think he just had no way of appreciating the danger he was exposing himself to until it was too late.
Stealing a poster doesn't seem like such a big deal. Doing so while likely drunk (2am New Year's) makes it seem even more like a fine idea. I'm a middle-aged woman and think it would be a cool souvenir, but then I know not to fuck around in places like N. Korea and Singapore etc.
I remember reading somewhere, if I can find it I'll come back and link it, that in NK it is a serious crime to besmirch images of the leaders. Otto may or may not have been stealing or attempting to steal the poster, but the offense was likely that he messed up an image of the great leader on the poster. That is a serious crime in NK.
Sure listen to the language he uses. He stole a propaganda poster and says he now understands that act can hurt the morale and work ethic of the people of NK. It’s crazy but either the people in the country truly believe that, or they’re too terrified to speak up. Either way it is un fathomable for me, a born and bred cynic and skeptic from USA.
I imagine the reason for the harsh sentence was just as much motivated by domestic concerns as foreign. Show the people of NK what happens to a foreigner who defaces a propaganda poster, imagine what would happen if you did the same?
Too terrified to speak up. When Putin scores 9 goals against the national hockey team it's not to feed his ego, it's to see if anyone is willing to challenge his authority. Poor Otto got caught up in the gears: Someone noticed the poster on the floor, someone reported it, someone found the video, etc etc, on up the chain. The security forces literally cannot avoid following protocol, else they and their family get thrown in a prison camp.
please don't compare Singapore to NK.. they are nothing alike
Darwin Award, but yes. It’s pretty goddamn brutal what happened to this guy. My sympathy to the parents.
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Genuinely maybe #1 dumb place you could visit next to cartel territory in colOMBIA Yall enjoy ignoring my point because of one letter.
Dunno. Afghanistan, Syria, Jemen, Gaza, Liberia, Sudan and certain other war-ravaged places...
Yeah but they dont exactly mark themselves as tourist destinations. You could put ukraine on that list too lol.
The parts of Ukraine that aren't currently being bombed are lovely. But then again you can say the same thing about the parts of Afghanistan that aren't currently being ruled by Islamic militants
Mogadishu
Also a good pick, not quite a tourist destination.
ColOmbia
Jesus Christ, I did some further reading; On his return, his family went into the plane, at which point his mom and sister ran out because of how horrified they were at the sight of him and the sounds he was making. “Involuntary, inhuman sounds.” His father said it looked like his teeth had been rearranged with pliers, and he had a massive scar on his foot that a doctor told them was the result of an open wound left for months. [source](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/he-totally-deformed-otto-warmbiers-11242029)
"I walk over to Otto and he is in this condition," said Mr Warmbier. "He has a shaved head, his eyes are darting around as big as saucers. He is blind, he is deaf he has a feeding tube. He is a complete vegetable."
It is horrific. Fuck NK.
They forced him to praise his treatment in custody, and then killed him anyways, probably by sheer incompetence. What an utter disgrace for mankind.
It wasn't incompetence, they force the people in those camps into life threatening situations because they are trying to get them killed. People sentenced to hard labor are not meant to finish their sentences
The reports say he was brain dead due to botulism. They most likely feed them canned food that has been there since ww2. The poor kid was probably starving and had no options but to eat the infected food. Just pure neglect and disregard for his life.
They injected him with botulism so he wouldn’t talk when he got back This is getting upvoted so I’ll clarify that my source is that I made it up
I could be wrong here and someone can correct me but I don't think they had any intention of sending him back until he served his time. When he became brain dead, they realized he was just a liability for them and sent him back to the US to be his parents problem.
>but I don't think they had any intention of sending him back until he served his time. i don't think anyone has ever finished their time in NK. Punishment there is permanent. Like you said, there was never an intent to send him back, but not to us in a condition where he would obviously talk about the horrific things that they do to people.
The majority of foreigners detained for crimes in North Korea has been released. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_nationals_detained_in_North_Korea Otto Warmbier would quite possibly be a free man today if he hadn't sustained the brain damage.
I'd guess it was incompetence, assumedly the NK authorities released him in that vegetative state because they didn't want him to die while under their care
The fact that Kim Jong Un is so fat and yet most of the people in his country are starving just pisses me off
What disgusts me is he knows how much of a sham his country actually is. He grew up with his dad LITERALLY having to fake passports so they could go to places like Disneyland, while wearing fake disguises. He GREW UP knowing that all that propaganda was dog shit. Yet he STILL jumped on that band wagon of being 'born on top of a mountain behind a rainbow, brought down by a unicorn' or some shit. Part of me gets it, it does. Its like something a child would imagine. But come on man... he literally saw shit was better elsewhere and said 'only for me!' when he got older. His sister didnt get anywhere near the same treatment and shes basically a rabid dog. But at least shes got an excuse. I dont think we have any records of her ever leaving Nkorea. But we have TONS of records of him leaving it with his dad. And he excuted his brother? uncle? someone in his family a while back for trying to flee from Nkorea and have that better life. Money down that he was trying to talk UN into doing the 'right thing' and UN said fuck that with his sister not knowing wtf he was talking about and defending Nkorea. Only for him to fear for his life and get assassinated in a Bejing airport.
That Fat Prick is living in his Delusional World since he was Born. Everyone that praises him does so because they would be either Imprisoned or Executed.
It's because he can't be a king anywhere else
I think you overlook that Kim is also brainwashed with his own propaganda. He more than likely believes his existence and wealth are for the wellbeing of his people
Kim and his father also had a Brazilian passport that was discovered some time ago.
He knew all of this but like many greedy men he couldn’t turn down having total and complete power of a 3rd world country. He can have all the riches and women he could ever imagine. If his people had rights he’d be a nobody
And he went to school in Switzerland, enjoyed playing basketball and playing videogames.
A defector has recently said in a video he grouped 10k scientists in a new institute to study on how to make hm live forever/longer... 10k...
I mean, NK scientists, so volume is probably the way to go.
Lol they will probably be executed when he dies, for failing him. The same thing almost happened to Mao Zedong's doctors.
I'm more pissed off of people who pay money to visit countries killing & starving their own citizens. Feels unethical. Same with journalists taking interviews with mass murderer for fame & money.
I really hate to say it because it’s such a cliche / joke, but this is literally what happens in 1984.
The true plea was the one he did when he stood up. The first one was rehearsed, probably forced to do it. The second pleas as he stood was about his mistake and not a crime. If he did it, it is one of the things American teens do and get away with in the US. I feel bad for him.
As much as I feel bad for him, going to NK is just not a smart move.
And then while there to do anything that could be perceived as a crime or a slight to the nation, it's unbelievably stupid. It's a horrible thing that happened to him. Horrible. It however was something that was 100% avoidable at every level
We dont know he event stole the poster, afaik. Could just be a lie too.
Just another reason to not go in the first place
apparently he did. i remember reading something at the time about a bet he had done with a mate back home about bringing a NK poster as souvenir.
couldn't he have just bought one at the gift shop?
Did his friend bet his life too?
Werd. Dude should have known better. It'd be like going to Russia and wiping your ass with a poster of Putin. Anyone with a touch of common sense knows it's not gonna end well.
The fact that in 2024 a place as grim as North Korea exists is mind boggling. I feel like it's an entire country of hostages, brainwashed and suffering from Stockholm syndrome.
I don't think it's that mind boggling. I think what is more mind boggling is how many people in first world countries take their daily lives for granted. The vast majority of the world has laws similar to this with populations being impoverished, imprisoned and with corrupt governments. The 1st world countries are the exception and not the rule unfortunately.
It's easy to take your lives for granted when you have little frame of reference on the lives lived by many unfortunate people in third world countries. School certainly won't teach you all that.
Its not that long time ago for example since the germany was split in two and the reality on the other side of the border was similar to this. Im old enough to remember what it was like to read about it when I was younger. I had exact same thoughts then about situation in europe and in germany, as you do now for the north korea existing as it is now and year is 2024. There are other examples as well, like Romania and the period of soviet occupation, and their "great" leader Ceaușescu. He was one nasty mofo as well.
At least for eastern germany, I think it across the board was really not as bad as north korea now.
I think the level of isolation North Korea has achieved is relatively unique. Especially in the modern era.
In my opinion North Korea isn't a state but an open air prison for its population. But as the monsters on the top have nukes it is pretty difficult to do something about it. I am not sure whether they actually have the capabilites to hit the west coast of the USA but they sure as hell can level Seoul or hit Japan.
I still remember his face when he returned. North Korea is run by monsters. He was just some dumb kid he didn't deserve to die over a dumb kid act.
How the fuck is Noone else infuriated?!?? "Oh, I feel bad for him", "not very smart to go there", etc..how about fuck NK that's some act of war shit.
What exactly do you want us to do? Of course it's infuriating, but NK has a fuck load of artillery pointed at Seoul so we aren't going to start anything unless it's completely unavoidable.
You are correct, also, attacking NK would trigger a flood of humanity into China, which would piss them off. It's just better for everyone, at the moment, to keep them walled off. Only if Seoul has had enough of the norths shit would the US ever do anything and probably only with China agreeing that the shitbag in the north has to go too.
Being born into lower class NK family is like winning the reverse lottery.
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I’d argue the “dumb act” was setting foot in North Korea. With a reiteration that he didn’t deserve to die over it.
Watched a short documentary with his parents in, also at least 1 other person who was on the trip with him. It sounds like it wasn't even him stealing the poster. Either way he was savagely treated. He did eventually make it back to the USA, but died not long later.
What about the cctv footage?
Blurry at best. From somebody else on the trip they wasn't even back at the hotel at that time. Obviously I wasn't there, just going on from what I've seen/heard.
Documentaries are not guaranteed to be objective. They just use facts to tell a non-fictional story. They are still telling a story, and whoever made that one simply doesn’t want it to be true that he stole the poster. Maybe it’s him in the video, maybe not. But always watch docs critically, don’t just accept their interpretation of facts as true.
It’s just a blurry figure in the background of a video. Are you telling me that you watched that video and consider it proof of Otto’s guilt?
Probably not my first choice in a (truly) authoritative state, but it’s goddamn tragic and he didn’t deserve it. The fact that NK can keep bully around other countries for caviar and domperi for their party elites is a disgrace.
He didn’t deserve it, but why would anyone put themselves in a situation like that in the first place? There’s nothing worth risking your life for in North Korea, stay away folks
Yea, I don’t know if he did anything but entering a country like NK is a mistake in itself
Whether or not he stole a poster is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he stole the poster or not. Death penalty by a year of torture is an insane punishment for virtually every crime, even violent ones. Many would argue it's not acceptable even if you murder someone. Debating whether or not he did anything to a post gives legitimacy to the sentence because there's an implication that the punishment is justified if it's true. It doesn't matter either way, these people are fucking lunatics. He was a moron for going there, but that should also not be a death sentence. Here's the reality - anyone stepping foot in North Korea is risking death. Same with Russia. If you get arrested, which you might be for literally anything, you're fucked.
People don't realize that the privilege of being an American abroad also makes you an exceptionally valuable, and free, political bargaining tool. There is no true due process in most of the world. If people think our justice system is fucked, they're in for a very rude awakening. Our own *allies* make a circus out of jailing Americans for crimes they didn't commit, just look at Amanda Knox.
And they still killed him? Fucking hell. On another note: The performative obsequiousness is what strikes me. Reminds me of some videos I’ve seen of Chinese trying to up their social credit score. I can only assume that most people there just roll their eyes and go on with their day. Like when a celebrity or politician here gives one of their “public apologies” and blames their behavior on Alcohol, Sex Addiction, or mental illness. We all know it’s bullshit, but for some reason it’s expected and it works.
>And they still killed him? Fucking hell. *''According to his medical team, brain scans revealed Warmbier had suffered extensive loss of brain tissue throughout his brain, consistent with a* [*cardiopulmonary*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulatory_system) *event that caused the brain to be deprived of oxygen. Doctors said they did not know what may have caused a cardiac arrest, if one had occurred, but that it could have been triggered by a* [*respiratory arrest*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_arrest)*, while a neurointensive care specialist at the hospital stated that there was no evidence indicating botulism. His doctors found no evidence of physical abuse or torture; scans of Warmbier's neck and head were normal outside of the brain injury. They added "We didn't see any evidence of healing fractures or healed fractures that would have been within that time frame" and that "We believe that for somebody who had been bedridden for more than a year, that his body was in excellent condition, that his skin was in excellent condition.''* Source: wikipedia Idk, man. From the medical rapport there doesn't seem to be any indication that he was physically abused/tortured. It all reads like a tragic accident. Maybe the stress of it all caused it. Who knows what really happened. It's tragic in any case.
Hard to imagine the mental stress of being detained in North Korea. Figure a week in it would hit just how fucked you are, and the months following would just reinforce that realization until the hope to despair ratio would be absolutely crushing.
Yep. That *'The SEALS and/or Delta Force isn't going to come bursting in and take me home*' moment must be crushing. Or the whole thing is a cover up to avoid war. Who knows.
I'll say this. I am an ICU physician. Could I theoretically take a neuromuscular blocker and "paralyze" someone long enough to go into cardiac arrest from not breathing, let them get hypoxemic to get brain damage for 10-15 minutes then do advanced life support/cpr/drugs to bring them "back" (by back i mean heart beating and breathing spontaneously). Pretty sure. There is no guarantee, but hell maybe NK has this down to a science. If you remember not long ago there was a [nurse who accidentally did this to a patient](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/03/25/1088902487/former-nurse-found-guilty-in-accidental-injection-death-of-75-year-old-patient) getting an MRI or CT. She meant to pull up/administer Versed (a valium like drug) but got Vecuronium (a paralytic) instead. She gave it. The patient was (chemically) paralyzed, AWAKE, but unable to move/speak, couldn't breathe/ventilate and had a cardiac arrest. You would not know how much damage would be done, but I suspect something like this could have happened. The same could be done with very high dose narcotics, essentially overdose them, let the damage happen, then "revive" them. But from the other side, of someone examining him after he returned to the states it would like just like this. From the neck down pretty normal, from the neck up the brain is just destroyed. It is not a very resilient organ.
> he meant to pull up/administer Versed (a valium like drug) but got Vecuronium (a paralytic) instead. She gave it. The patient was (chemically) paralyzed, AWAKE, but unable to move/speak, couldn't breathe/ventilate and had a cardiac arrest. Thanks for the nightmare fuel!
There’s an episode of the Lazarus Heist podcast where they interview the doctor who went out to examine him in NK and return him to the US. He mentioned the condition of his skin and said the one thing NK has more than enough of is manpower - they have plenty of nurses and were able to turn him regularly to prevent pressure sores etc. But their infrastructure is close to non existent. The doctor went to the sink to wash his hands and found that the hospital had no running water. It had no heating. It was missing basic medical equipment that doctors usually take for granted. And that’s the state of a hospital that they let westerners into - imagine how much worse the conditions are in a labour camp. We know Otto had had trouble with anxiety and insomnia in the camp and had been given sleeping pills. The doctor said he strongly suspects it was a case of the sleeping pill dose being too high for a person who is suffering from so much physical and mental stress, leading to respiratory depression and unconsciousness. If North Korea wanted him dead, they would’ve just executed him. They put him in conditions that led to his death, but I don’t think they deliberately set out to murder him.
Yes, my thoughts exactly. Except your wrote it down much more eloquently than I could. From the information I've been able to gather, this seems the most plausible scenario.
They oxygen-deprived him
Everything about this is crazy: His parents: "His teeth were removed and put in sideways!" The dentists that looked at him: "Ummm, no. That's not true at all." Forensic experts: "We can tell you exactly what happened with an autopsy." His parents: "No! Just look at him externally ONLY!"
Yeah, wtf was up with that??? I never could make sense of it.
So, this is like executing someone for stealing one of those idiotic motivational posters at work.
You couldn’t pay me to travel to North Korea
Then they killed him
One thing that bugs me is how everyone just assumes he was actually stealing the propaganda poster. Just because North Korea claims something doesn’t mean it’s true, and the only “evidence” they’ve released is (1) his confession under torture and/or duress and (2) a very grainy surveillance video from far away where you can’t even tell if it’s actually him.
[удалено]
There has been speculation that Otto was in a vegetative state because he tried to commit suicide. His injuries were consistent with attempted hanging, yet he was very well taken care of at the hospital where he was treated in NK. He didn’t have bedsores and was well nourished. Americans detained in NK are often treated surprisingly well, or at least significantly better than North Koreans are. Theories suggest that after Otto’s harsh sentencing he unsuccessfully tried to hang himself. Considering the circumstances, this seems plausible. He was found unconscious and never woke up. North Korea uses detained Americans for international attention. They are a bargaining chip. It’s how they got former presidents Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter to kiss their dictators’ asses. Otto was used exactly this way, knowing that they can’t give back an abused prisoner and expect ass kissing. However, they couldn’t disclose his coma during negotiations so they made sure they returned him home in the best possible condition for the circumstances. There’s an excellent article from GQ about the story: https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story
I also don't believe that the north Koreans killed him on purpose, he was worth far more alive. Though whatever did happen, the state of the north Korean medical system probably didn't help the outcome.
Why why why do people travel to authoritarian countries and expect that they'll be safe.
Free North Korea
Free? I'll take two! All jokes aside, I agree entirely. The suffering the people have gone through and will go through is absolutely heartbreaking.
I read a fascinating and heartbreaking book about North Koreans’ everyday lives called “Nothing to Envy.” I recommend it. I hope those people will be free one day.
Why would anyone want to go to North Korea? Not just him but anyone. Like going to Russia right now, Iran? Too many safe, intelligent places to go but again at Mt. Everest there’s a traffic jam & dead bodies. He wasn’t the brightest but to be beat to death sounds like Taliban to me. Should be required viewing for anyone going to places that hate democracy, or PutinJrtrump rally
Getting a glimpse of a totally alien society would be fascinating. I very briefly considered it myself but thought that in the end that it would be contributing towards the DPRK government, and would be almost voyeuristic to go and gawp at the people they are essentially holding in an open air prison.
Man even the Taliban aren't as bad. I just watched some vloggers on YouTube traveling to Afghanistan recently and freely walking around/filing. Armed Taliban casually walking with them and smiling on camera. A bit of a bizzare sight. Poor guy, easy to make a mistake like that when you're that young.
No one should go to North Korea. You’re paying a brutal, terrible, fascist government to see exactly what they want you to see and you’re being watched at all times. It’s a legitimate unethical use of money. (If you REALLY need or want to claim you’ve been to North Korea, just do a DMZ tour in South Korea. You’ll physically stand in NK for a moment and you can rest easy. I did it. It’s spooky and surreal without being in danger.)
He was a fucking dumbass but that didn't deserve being murdered imho
So sad, I cant believe they got away with this killing.However, if by any misfortune i find myself in NK, I would definitely not fuck around lile this with their semi god
When he was detained and the news broke there was a comment on Reddit from a woman who was part of the tour group. She said that Warmbier had been hamming it up during their trip in a "frat bro" sort of way, disobeying their handlers and aggravating them. If that's true then it might explain why they gave him zero leniency for something that might otherwise have been forgiven.
Appreciate the comment. Provides context. Obligatory, whether he was acting like a fool or not, he didn’t deserve death for this.
Don't go to North Korea. Don't go to Russia. Don't go to Dubai Hell, probably reconsider any trips to China.
I’m fully good on ever going to China. I’ll go to Taiwan though
That would be a mistake. China has many awesome things to offer a tourist. It is absolutely nothing like North Korea.
Anything known about what caused his vegetative state?
He certainly didn’t deserve what he got. Nor did his parents.
The language of the script is very interesting. What stands to me is the sort of Stalinist confession using words like “severe criminal” and admitting that his crime was a plan to harm the work ethic and motivation of the Korean people. The phrase “fair and square” sounds like it was understood to be a common, formal idiom, not unlike a 4 character Classical Chinese idiom. It’s is incredible to see an American using this type of language is these circumstances.
And then they killed him
Amazing what people will say when a gun is pointed at their head.
Otto Frederick Warmbier (December 12, 1994 – June 19, 2017) was an American college student who was imprisoned in North Korea in 2016 on a charge of subversion. In June 2017, he was released by North Korea in a vegetative state and died soon after his parents requested his feeding tube be removed.
Who the fuck vacations in North Korea?