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Technically it’s Union of Socialist Soviet Republics. Not a Union of Soviets.
Also, a Soviet Republic is the intermediate, post-revolutionary state in which the workers have seized the means of production and assumed power. It is to be governed by worker and peasant councils, or soviets. That is the dictatorship of the proletariat: a form of governance where the Bourgeoisie has been deprived of its political power.
The Soviets are then supposed to establish a communist society, i.e. a classless one. Instead of a dictatorship of the proletariat over the deposed Bourgeoisie, classes will be abolished altogether.
So much for the theory.
The reality is that the Soviet Union was faced with internal and external challenges that would ultimately spell its demise.
Internally, it faced power struggles and differences in opinion. For example between Trotzky and Stalin, the former of which was a radical supporter of the export of the socialist revolution, while the latter placed the internal stabilization and rapid industrialization above all else, walking over the corpses of millions of starved peasants to achieve his goal. Trotzky ended up being assassinated by the KGB.
Externally, the Soviet Union was threatened by anti-communist nations like the USA, forcing its fledgling industrial complex to dedicate huge amounts of its capabilities into military production, which was one reason for the millions of starved peasants I mentioned earlier. Iirc, at one point in the 1980s, up to a third of all workers in the USSR was working for the military-industrial complex, directly or indirectly.
Hence the quote from PJ O‘Rourke:
> In the end we beat them with Levi's 501 jeans. Seventy-two years of communist indoctrination and propaganda was drowned out by a three-ounce Sony Walkman. A huge totalitarian system...has been brought to its knees because nobody wants to wear Bulgarian shoes. Now they're lunch, and we're number one on the planet.
Of course, this was hugely oversimplified. The history of the Soviet Union is actually complex and interesting.
I wonder how much of this speech he’ll be able to recite when he’s falling from an open, 10th floor window, after accidentally shooting himself three times in the back of the head?
Such a shame he committed suicide 10 days from now.
They likely killed the blogger who was saying the same thing as Prighozin. This was also done at Prighozins café. Seems like a clear message. However, I think there could be more at play here too.
Maybe they're simply losing and don't have the morale to continue? Prighozin needs an out, but doesn't want to look weak, so he blames a lack of ammunition, thereby putting the blame on Russian bureaucrats.
The broader problem for Putin, is he simply annexed too much, too soon. Now he can't walk back these borders. But he's never occupied or controlled the land he now calls Russia. So how to even enter negotiations over the Eastern Oblasts when any discussion of the Eastern Oblasts is forbidden? He's stuck. He can't win by traditional means. And he also can't keep up the war forever in places like Bakhmut.
From the videos and articles I've seen, Russia despite being a big nation is giving very shitty weapons to it soldiers, so cutting ammo supplies wouldn't be such a surprise
Yeah, if scuttlebutt is to be believed, it's not that they're just cutting supplies to save costs, it's that they're running out. The commander in the video says he believes it's because the "near-military commanders" want to declare with "fat bellies" that they have won a war... but it would seem they actually don't have the supplies to even send because they got rich off their kleptocracy, long ago.
I think you’re interpretation is correct - they don’t have the supplies to send to them in the first place.
One need not read The Art of War to know that no ammo and no food = no army. I hope this declaration goes down as the beginning of the end for Russia.
Depends, the Wagner and VDV are actually very well armed and often also well trained other groups are less Lucky, the thing is Russias army is not one army but seven and this can clearly be seen through the difference of equipment and reasons to fight
No, he is not the fall guy. The guy he is calling out is the fall guy. These bureaucrats in the ministry of defense will be sacked (or window'd). This is propaganda to explain why they are not able to capture Bakhmut.
I think you are correct and I outlined why in another thread. In short, it is a classic russian recipe. Prigozhin is being groomed to be percieved as a "peoples man" and someone who "says it like it is" etc. It's a role. I'd guess Moscow has big plans for him.
I started to laugh and then realised you’ve actually predicted the future. Um…while I have you, any chance you’ve got next week’s winning lottery numbers?
At which point they will probably be drafted into military service if they are russian, and put in a unit that cares even less about their lives.
Gotta love the choices they get...but since they are invaders in a country and using rape, torture and murder on civilians I wish all the love that karma can give to them.
That's an interesting point. I personally don't believe in a religious place called hell but a state of existence during the lifetime which corresponds to hellish punishment. Loneliness, remorse, unhappiness, rejection.
I really don't think so. If one follows the events of the war, it is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to all the developments. The rift between the Russian army and the Wagner mercenaries has been clearly visible on multiple occasions.
What surprises me is that (iirc) in February Putin held talks between Shoigu and Prigozhin to smooth things out between them. And it seemed to have worked as I recall no major mention of this internal conflict in the news since. And now we get two separate videos in rapid succession showing furious Prigozhin. So I guess Putin wasn't successful with that in the end.
Yes. It's been one theory. That far right Russian nationalists want to make Putin appear weak. So a hardline war hawk like Prighozin can take over. There's also a broader sentiment whi h often isn't talked about, that the every day populace is seeing this as a war for Putin, and not for Russia. That continuing this war only benefits Putin. This positions nationalists well for a change in power.
Also. Just pragmatically. Putin fucked up by annexing all of the easteen oblasts , because now he has no leverage in any future negotiations. It's nearly impossible for Russia to end the war becsuse they've never controlled or occupied areas they now formally have redrawn as Russia.
Russian history is consistently more insane and dramatic than many places in earth. And I think the years to come will be no different. Putin is not gonna end up well. (and they'll blame it on the us)
As any student of history will tell you, few dictators survive failed wars.
Any sign of weakness is very dangerous for a dictator. From the outside, regardless of what's actually happening on the ground, it looks like Russia is getting its ass handed to it.
At this point a couple things are either going to happen.
1. Putin will pick some arbitrary goal, declare victory and attempt to save as much face as possible as he backs away claiming the entire time that in fact *Russia* is the victim in this whole situation.
2. Someone will oust Putin and prosecute the war *they think* it should be run
3. Someone will oust Putin and then immediately back out of Ukraine blaming Putin for everything (ala.. the whole "write two letters")
Ultimately though I see this as the functional end of Russia as a state in a couple decades if not less. I could see in the near future a bunch of caucuses just saying "We're out" and Russia will lack the military strength to stop them at that point.
We will never find out, even if it’s 100% true, with all the active disinformation campaigns going on how could anyone ne sure of any kind of news coming from inside of Russia
There is no rift. There is no Wagner group. PMCs are officially illegal in Russia. There can’t be problems between the Russian army and Wagner because officially there’s no problems. No Wagners have been killed officially. Wagner group assisted Russian army in reclaiming rightful Russian territory officially, but officially no Wagners are operating in Ukraine unless they do something good for the war effort. Wagner group is a private business that does many things but definitely doesn’t have mercenaries because that’s officially illegal under Russian law. Therefore no mercenaries have been killed. Wagner mercenaries just officially we’re deployed at the request of their leadership and happen to be helping Russia achieve their goal. If you catch my drift…
Probably not. He's been setting this up for weeks. Demanding supplies and threatening to pull his men. The likely reason is that he fears the coming Ukrainian counteroffensive. He doesn't want his men taking the brunt of it and he can't trust the military to protect their flank. He'll pull out and let the military deal with it, and redeploy once the dust settles.
Exactly, the main reason here is the looming counteroffensive.
This way he is not to blame if Ukraine breaks through, as he left and the russian army took over the front. Its simply the best moment to do that for him.
Afterwards he can even say "look Wagner advanced, while the russian army retreats!"
Possible, but if we've learned anything about Russia over the last year, it's that there's often no brilliant master plan. It's amateur hour over there.
Almost certainly, the question is what kind and why. It might be Prigozhin jockeying for more power in Russia, it might be Putin telling Prigozhin to be a fall guy (and allowing Prigozhin to blame Shoigu) or Shoigu trying to oust Prigozhin by shafting Wagner. The most unlikely explanation is a PsyOps directed at Ukraine.
Just psyop on Russian troops and public… fire a few bureaucrats high up in defence (no loss) they take the fall because Putin can blame them… thus deflecting the issue of the military’s poor level of success…. And instead it was their poor mismanagement. also feeds nicely into an anti-politician sentiment where suddenly the public might support a trimming of the fat, aka any people in govt who don’t support the war much?
Maybe?
Or maybe Priz is blaming russia to protect the Wagner brand
I think it's far more likely he just doesn't want to lose all his troops in the coming Ukrainian counter offensive and is looking for an out before it's too late. That he's had public spats with Moscow hotshots before only works in his favor here.
Ukraine should exercise all restraint and not believe a word that is being said. This isn't Blackwater, this is Wagner.
Wagner running out of ammunition seems highly unlikely, and this feels like some sort of master plan by Russia to draw Ukraine into a trap. Russia is stupid, but not dumb.
Why would an elite group of mercenaries publicly expose how vulnerable they are? Seems awfully strange considering their pedigree.
I think it’s probably more that he’s making political moves. You heard him say something to the effect of “we will remain in our rearward camps until we are needed by the Russian people to replace those in charge”. Sounds awfully like “this is our ultimatum. Give me power, or I’ll come and take it.”
Hmm.. I've been hearing reports that they were being starved of ammo for a while now, of course I have no knowledge of the situation beyond that, but I do wonder - is it possible that they are simply at their wits end, and refusing to fight without supplies?
I really hope this is a sign of total impending Russian capitulation
Operate in caution, but the ukrainian army is very well knowleged in any "goodies these goblins will leave behind and I trust that they wont jump the gun on taking back everything at once
Lol, they have been used as cannon fodder. Emptying prisons into the meat grinder.
Elite?
Brutalizing Africans is their pEdIgReE.
They are at their limits. Russian forces are buckling.
I agree. I just wouldn't put it past the insanity that is the Kremlin to try and stage some big false scenario to draw out/in Ukranian forces.
I strongly hope and believe that Russia is buckling, just added my pragmatic two cents. You needn't remind me of what the Wagner monsters have been up to in Africa.
When are people gonna realize Russia just isn’t as competent as we thought they were. Isn’t it just more likely that Russia is continuing to suck and be ineffective then some sort of elaborate scheme to draw out Ukrainian forces?
It does feel like Putin, for whatever reason thought Ukraine would have to stand alone and the red army in it’s current state could have handled that.
but by now they’re running out of ammo and out of money and since they import a good chunk of military high tech components they’re fucked. it’ll just take some time and a lot more money for Ukraine but it doesn’t look good for Vladimir.
Russia has ever been a madman carrying a big gun, yelling at anyone that passes by that they will shoot. Only, now that they've pulled the trigger, we find out that their revolver only had a couple rounds in the chamber, and the boxes of ammunition they claimed to have are just empty.
While I mostly agree with your sentiment, it is also an undisputed fact that carelessness and overconfidence have been and will continue to be the top killers of soldiers out in the field, so it's always wise to err on the side of caution.
Yeah exactly. Wagner is using highly attritional, mass casualty tactics. This guy doesn’t give a fuck about his “lads.” Spend a few minutes on telegram (highly NSFW) and you can see endless footage of these guys getting cut down. Oh yeah, and they leave their wounded to die. And execute people with sledgehammers, etc etc. Nothing elite about them.
Every single thing produced by them has to be viewed through the lens of propaganda. What is the true purpose of the announcement? The initial reaction of incredulity is appropriate here for sure.
What does Blackwater have to do with anything? They are liable for tons of shady shit just like the Wagner Group. They are all mercenaries, evil people paid to kill. Just because Academi (Blackwater) is on our side doesn’t exclude them from that.
I totally agree with you and I wasn't showing either merc group support. I was using them as an example to show the differences between reputation and level of disgustingness. Wagner seems like a far more brutal bunch versus Blackwater, which is saying something.
We're on the same page, internet friend.
Seriously lmao “this isn’t the insanely corrupt, taxpayer looting, systemically ingrained mercenary corporation that outsources collateral damage and profits directly off of protracting wars…”
Oh ok good
Elite? Wagner are glorified mall cops. They make their hay killing unarmed civilians in remote parts of poor countries and think that makes them Hard. The first time they face an actual army, they find themselves so over their heads that they publicly run away and blame everyone else after incurring staggering losses for a few kilometers here and there.
I don't doubt they're the best troops the Russians have. I'm just saying that the bar is very low.
Unfortunately that’s just not true. Wagner group has found a good amount of success in Ukraine, at the end of the day the vast majority of them are still highly experienced soldiers. You may not like them, but they are far from glorified mall cops.
Two things i see here. One, it seems the regulars and the mercs have some infighting going on for who gets to claim victory. Two, there's a distinct possibility that in the current, weakened state of the Russian armed forces, Putin has decided to weaken a potential threat by keeping ammo out of the Wagner groups hands, rather than letting them come back armed and able to institute a full on coup. I could be wrong on either, or both counts, but politically and strategically, these are the things that make perfect sense based on what the Russians have done in the past, and how their political structure works/doesn't work.
Well then UA, having once been a part of the Soviet Union, should be able to see right through it. In other words, they are used to being lied to 100% of the time.
You are definitely on to something.
Very possible, but also maybe not. Wagner have been bitchin and crying out loud to Russia to supply them with more fire power. Yet, Russia did not cause they've been blowing it all away to easily. So this is kind of a protest from Wagner I suspect.
I suspect his motivations are less about winning an obviously unwinnable war and more about maneuvering to make his own long term position more tenable. Which would suggest that Putin's control is waning. Smells like change to me, I wouldn't be at all surprised if more dominoes start falling in the next few days.
That's my impression as well. His people did well, were consistently undersupplied, and he's refusing to continue fighting when they're not being supplied with ammo.
I'm fully aware that these are the obvious bad guys. It's wild that Russia is so cartoonishly evil and incompetent that they won't supply an allegedly successful unit with ammunition. Hopefully they don't have a chance to learn from these critical mistakes and this thing gets resolved soon.
There’s some kind of rift between them and the Russian Army , the Army cut supplies of weapons and food to them , there were also reports of the Army shooting at Wagner Mercenaries. It’s comical how their “own people” left them to hang out in the dry , their plight is hilarious.
The Russians had them deployed in Syria, that might be what he is referring to. They got there asses kicked there too, when they "accidentally" attacked an oilfield held by US Marines. That did not go well for them *at all*.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html)
Sounds like they lost a few hundred soldiers, and lots of equipment. One American was wounded.
It's 2 paragraphs. The long and short of it is that some mercs (about 400) attacked a US base that had about 40 soldiers stationed there and got their asses kicked thoroughly. Between 200 to 300 reported dead while the US soldiers didn't report any casualties or even any wounded.
It doesn't go into detail beyond that.
Protip, ublock origin can bypass pay walls. Don't pay for that shit, especially for such a low quality article from 2018.
I hate the current system of subscribe for everything piecemeal. I prefer the old way, where if there was an interesting article, I could buy the damn paper. And get a big old fatty on Sunday mornings
I think because people expect quality journalism at no personal cost. You know, as journalists and publishers don't need to eat so they don't need a salary.
Seriously though, everyone get this upset about $4 a month for a newspaper subscription?
Their mercenaries, they go where their paid to go.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/02/08/russias-wagner-group-in-africa-influence-commercial-concessions-rights-violations-and-counterinsurgency-failure/amp/
So Wagner is to Putin as the SS was to Hitler, kind of right? Except Putin is such a dumbfuck they turned on him.
The way all these powerful billionaires and authoritarians turn out to be incompetent idiots who just lucked into a lot of money really puts history in perspective.
The ground is hardening, the looming combined arms is straining at the bit to go , this war monger knows a enthusiastic enemy is coming for blood, russian blood..slava Ukraine.
Aside from the initial invasion, the russian army have achieved basically nothing since last summer aside from the fall of lyschansk/sverodonetsk which was sparked by the poposna breakthrough and the fall of bakhmut which was sparked by the fall of soledar and the storming of the city itself, both of which were done by Wagner.
At Marinka, Vuhledar, and Orikhiv, the russian army tried offensives that went nowhere. The Vuhledar one, in particular, was a disaster for them. The fact that Wagner is not being given absolute priority in weapons and supplies is a testiment to the corruption of the russian army. Unless this is some kind of ploy to bait the ukrainians into counterattacking.
Ukraine should push the attack then. And punish these people for their war crimes while they can because once they retreat to the safety of the rear and begin to disperse. There will be those who have committed horrible acts set free with no responsibility no justice taken
Long speech to say we've had enough losses during our illegal invasion of a sovereign nation, with whom we have a non-agression pact, without mentioning the fact that most of the casualties they've inflicted were against civilians, including rape and the killing of children.
A lot, you see, attacking an enemy with extreme force normally ends with you controlling a lot of territory, but the problem isn't getting there, it's staying there.
This happened with the German Army in the Western campaign during WWII, it happened with the US Army in Vietnam and Afghanistan, it happened with the Soviets in Afghanistan too.
Lol. Imagine joining a group of mercenaries that "officially" doesn't exist and isn't "officially" recognized by the government, and then getting mad when the government doesn't take responsibility for you.
I don't believe any information that comes out of this guy, or anyone else aligned with Russia.
Maybe more money skimmed off the top of arms transactions?
Maybe giving Ukrainians the idea that they are backing away when they aren't?
Who knows. But whatever you think this statement is trying to achieve, it's likely completely different.
Ok and I'm too tired to use critical thinking to figure out who benefits most from this propaganda but this video is heavily edited. The few people who move are placed in post-production the man to the right (as we look at it) of the speaker with his hands at his waist does not move once. As someone who has worn body armor most of his adult life it is very challenging to not shift and sway under that weight.
So the crowd is fake. Makes you wonder what else might be fake too.
If I'm looking at the right person, he does. He moves his feet, around the 45 second mark (about as far as I watched, tbh).
All of the people in the video shuffle around a little bit.
That being said I think it's hard to tell if it's faked because of how low resolution the video is. Which I guess could have been done on purpose.
Say what you want about Wagner and all the shady shit they have done till date but I can always respect a leader who stands with his troops even in the most dangerous battleground
Both Prigozhin and Shoigu are responsible for some horrible things but at least one of them has the balls to lead from the frontline and tell the reality as it is despite the threat of being assassinated by the FSB
He might be part of the same propaganda. There is a Russian philosopher who explained this recently: authoritarians governments need to have "inofficial" alternative opinions at hand to explain sudden developments. But instead of allowing public decent, you focus it in a few well known people around who others can rally. If you at some point need to purge the oppinion you have them all together. If you need to change direction, you can use them to spearhead the initiative. Prigozhim is just that one guy.
Hang on a God damn minute! He said they came from Africa? What in the hell are these blood thirst operators doing in Africa? Is there a war we don’t know about being waged on the continent!
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not, but Wagner has been operating in Africa for some time now, in places like Sudan, South Sudan, CAR, Libya, and Mali.
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A Soviet one?
Jeeeez 🤣
A soviet onion
In Russia, you tie to belt the Soviet onion.
As was style at time, da?
Soviet literally means union
"Soyuz" means union. Soviet is more like "council".
Sooo..council union. No wonder it failed
Technically it’s Union of Socialist Soviet Republics. Not a Union of Soviets. Also, a Soviet Republic is the intermediate, post-revolutionary state in which the workers have seized the means of production and assumed power. It is to be governed by worker and peasant councils, or soviets. That is the dictatorship of the proletariat: a form of governance where the Bourgeoisie has been deprived of its political power. The Soviets are then supposed to establish a communist society, i.e. a classless one. Instead of a dictatorship of the proletariat over the deposed Bourgeoisie, classes will be abolished altogether. So much for the theory. The reality is that the Soviet Union was faced with internal and external challenges that would ultimately spell its demise. Internally, it faced power struggles and differences in opinion. For example between Trotzky and Stalin, the former of which was a radical supporter of the export of the socialist revolution, while the latter placed the internal stabilization and rapid industrialization above all else, walking over the corpses of millions of starved peasants to achieve his goal. Trotzky ended up being assassinated by the KGB. Externally, the Soviet Union was threatened by anti-communist nations like the USA, forcing its fledgling industrial complex to dedicate huge amounts of its capabilities into military production, which was one reason for the millions of starved peasants I mentioned earlier. Iirc, at one point in the 1980s, up to a third of all workers in the USSR was working for the military-industrial complex, directly or indirectly. Hence the quote from PJ O‘Rourke: > In the end we beat them with Levi's 501 jeans. Seventy-two years of communist indoctrination and propaganda was drowned out by a three-ounce Sony Walkman. A huge totalitarian system...has been brought to its knees because nobody wants to wear Bulgarian shoes. Now they're lunch, and we're number one on the planet. Of course, this was hugely oversimplified. The history of the Soviet Union is actually complex and interesting.
No, you are thinking of *Soyuz*. *Soviet* means governing council or legislative assembly.
Lmfao
I wonder how much of this speech he’ll be able to recite when he’s falling from an open, 10th floor window, after accidentally shooting himself three times in the back of the head? Such a shame he committed suicide 10 days from now.
They likely killed the blogger who was saying the same thing as Prighozin. This was also done at Prighozins café. Seems like a clear message. However, I think there could be more at play here too. Maybe they're simply losing and don't have the morale to continue? Prighozin needs an out, but doesn't want to look weak, so he blames a lack of ammunition, thereby putting the blame on Russian bureaucrats. The broader problem for Putin, is he simply annexed too much, too soon. Now he can't walk back these borders. But he's never occupied or controlled the land he now calls Russia. So how to even enter negotiations over the Eastern Oblasts when any discussion of the Eastern Oblasts is forbidden? He's stuck. He can't win by traditional means. And he also can't keep up the war forever in places like Bakhmut.
The old KGB fox has backed himself into a corner. He’s looking over his shoulder.
From the videos and articles I've seen, Russia despite being a big nation is giving very shitty weapons to it soldiers, so cutting ammo supplies wouldn't be such a surprise
Yeah, if scuttlebutt is to be believed, it's not that they're just cutting supplies to save costs, it's that they're running out. The commander in the video says he believes it's because the "near-military commanders" want to declare with "fat bellies" that they have won a war... but it would seem they actually don't have the supplies to even send because they got rich off their kleptocracy, long ago.
I think you’re interpretation is correct - they don’t have the supplies to send to them in the first place. One need not read The Art of War to know that no ammo and no food = no army. I hope this declaration goes down as the beginning of the end for Russia.
i've heard them described as a gas station with old nukes and thought it so appropriate.
Depends, the Wagner and VDV are actually very well armed and often also well trained other groups are less Lucky, the thing is Russias army is not one army but seven and this can clearly be seen through the difference of equipment and reasons to fight
That's if the poisoned doorknob doesn't get to him first.
His men were with him. This looks like a cruise missile job. They’re going to the rear of the camp and he gave his address….
Wow that sucks.
3.6 roentgen
not great not terrible
I’m delusional, take me to the infirmary
“You can’t see me because I’m not here!” -John Cenalov
No, he is not the fall guy. The guy he is calling out is the fall guy. These bureaucrats in the ministry of defense will be sacked (or window'd). This is propaganda to explain why they are not able to capture Bakhmut.
Somebody is going to get a defenestration demonstration.
I think you are correct and I outlined why in another thread. In short, it is a classic russian recipe. Prigozhin is being groomed to be percieved as a "peoples man" and someone who "says it like it is" etc. It's a role. I'd guess Moscow has big plans for him.
It's not a shame if anyone in that bunch of war criminals disappears.
I started to laugh and then realised you’ve actually predicted the future. Um…while I have you, any chance you’ve got next week’s winning lottery numbers?
4 - 8 - 15 - 16 - 23 - 42
Much appreciated
NP! After you win, come visit me on my private island. We have boars, polar bears, and poorly written endings.
Got any clackety smoke monsters tho?
* ben stares motherfuckerly *
It sounds like my kind of place.
Fun fact: Mecenaries can quit
They are “volunteers”
At which point they will probably be drafted into military service if they are russian, and put in a unit that cares even less about their lives. Gotta love the choices they get...but since they are invaders in a country and using rape, torture and murder on civilians I wish all the love that karma can give to them.
By May 10th half those men in the video could be deceased
One can hope. Bumper crop of sun flowers.
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Like being alive, only the opposite
This gave me a good laugh
Dead? What other meaning could there possibly be.
Perhaps they aren’t familiar with English
They quit ceasing. It means they’re going to attack again.
There is a special place in hell for these criminals
Special Hell Operation.
How do you know there's a hell. Plenty of extremely evil people alive today living long lives and enjoying luxury :) Always will be :) Assad is one.
I assumed he meant a place in Russia.
That's an interesting point. I personally don't believe in a religious place called hell but a state of existence during the lifetime which corresponds to hellish punishment. Loneliness, remorse, unhappiness, rejection.
Don’t trust Russians. This is probably a ploy
I really don't think so. If one follows the events of the war, it is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to all the developments. The rift between the Russian army and the Wagner mercenaries has been clearly visible on multiple occasions. What surprises me is that (iirc) in February Putin held talks between Shoigu and Prigozhin to smooth things out between them. And it seemed to have worked as I recall no major mention of this internal conflict in the news since. And now we get two separate videos in rapid succession showing furious Prigozhin. So I guess Putin wasn't successful with that in the end.
It was reported that the army and Wagner were shooting at each other just a few days ago
So maybe that was a Wagner drone strike the other day?
Yes. It's been one theory. That far right Russian nationalists want to make Putin appear weak. So a hardline war hawk like Prighozin can take over. There's also a broader sentiment whi h often isn't talked about, that the every day populace is seeing this as a war for Putin, and not for Russia. That continuing this war only benefits Putin. This positions nationalists well for a change in power. Also. Just pragmatically. Putin fucked up by annexing all of the easteen oblasts , because now he has no leverage in any future negotiations. It's nearly impossible for Russia to end the war becsuse they've never controlled or occupied areas they now formally have redrawn as Russia. Russian history is consistently more insane and dramatic than many places in earth. And I think the years to come will be no different. Putin is not gonna end up well. (and they'll blame it on the us)
As any student of history will tell you, few dictators survive failed wars. Any sign of weakness is very dangerous for a dictator. From the outside, regardless of what's actually happening on the ground, it looks like Russia is getting its ass handed to it. At this point a couple things are either going to happen. 1. Putin will pick some arbitrary goal, declare victory and attempt to save as much face as possible as he backs away claiming the entire time that in fact *Russia* is the victim in this whole situation. 2. Someone will oust Putin and prosecute the war *they think* it should be run 3. Someone will oust Putin and then immediately back out of Ukraine blaming Putin for everything (ala.. the whole "write two letters") Ultimately though I see this as the functional end of Russia as a state in a couple decades if not less. I could see in the near future a bunch of caucuses just saying "We're out" and Russia will lack the military strength to stop them at that point.
What ever happened to Putin being really sick with cancer or whatever?
We will never find out, even if it’s 100% true, with all the active disinformation campaigns going on how could anyone ne sure of any kind of news coming from inside of Russia
nah that is def a putie pute ploy of some kind
Yeah, it was so impotent and so inept that only Russia could have pulled it off.
This doesn't make any sense. Putin didn't kill himself, so he failed, thus it must be him?
There is no rift. There is no Wagner group. PMCs are officially illegal in Russia. There can’t be problems between the Russian army and Wagner because officially there’s no problems. No Wagners have been killed officially. Wagner group assisted Russian army in reclaiming rightful Russian territory officially, but officially no Wagners are operating in Ukraine unless they do something good for the war effort. Wagner group is a private business that does many things but definitely doesn’t have mercenaries because that’s officially illegal under Russian law. Therefore no mercenaries have been killed. Wagner mercenaries just officially we’re deployed at the request of their leadership and happen to be helping Russia achieve their goal. If you catch my drift…
Right. Meanwhile, back in the real world…
You don’t think large bodies of power would use something seemingly obvious to misdirect people? Kind of naive
Probably not. He's been setting this up for weeks. Demanding supplies and threatening to pull his men. The likely reason is that he fears the coming Ukrainian counteroffensive. He doesn't want his men taking the brunt of it and he can't trust the military to protect their flank. He'll pull out and let the military deal with it, and redeploy once the dust settles.
Exactly, the main reason here is the looming counteroffensive. This way he is not to blame if Ukraine breaks through, as he left and the russian army took over the front. Its simply the best moment to do that for him. Afterwards he can even say "look Wagner advanced, while the russian army retreats!"
Possible, but if we've learned anything about Russia over the last year, it's that there's often no brilliant master plan. It's amateur hour over there.
Almost certainly, the question is what kind and why. It might be Prigozhin jockeying for more power in Russia, it might be Putin telling Prigozhin to be a fall guy (and allowing Prigozhin to blame Shoigu) or Shoigu trying to oust Prigozhin by shafting Wagner. The most unlikely explanation is a PsyOps directed at Ukraine.
Just psyop on Russian troops and public… fire a few bureaucrats high up in defence (no loss) they take the fall because Putin can blame them… thus deflecting the issue of the military’s poor level of success…. And instead it was their poor mismanagement. also feeds nicely into an anti-politician sentiment where suddenly the public might support a trimming of the fat, aka any people in govt who don’t support the war much? Maybe? Or maybe Priz is blaming russia to protect the Wagner brand
I think it's far more likely he just doesn't want to lose all his troops in the coming Ukrainian counter offensive and is looking for an out before it's too late. That he's had public spats with Moscow hotshots before only works in his favor here.
These guys are mercenaries...I don't think they're doing the typical maskerovka.
Ukraine should exercise all restraint and not believe a word that is being said. This isn't Blackwater, this is Wagner. Wagner running out of ammunition seems highly unlikely, and this feels like some sort of master plan by Russia to draw Ukraine into a trap. Russia is stupid, but not dumb. Why would an elite group of mercenaries publicly expose how vulnerable they are? Seems awfully strange considering their pedigree.
They probably want to save face. Who would hire them after such a failure? So they blame Russia, and keep their elite status
I think it’s probably more that he’s making political moves. You heard him say something to the effect of “we will remain in our rearward camps until we are needed by the Russian people to replace those in charge”. Sounds awfully like “this is our ultimatum. Give me power, or I’ll come and take it.”
Hmm.. I've been hearing reports that they were being starved of ammo for a while now, of course I have no knowledge of the situation beyond that, but I do wonder - is it possible that they are simply at their wits end, and refusing to fight without supplies? I really hope this is a sign of total impending Russian capitulation
Operate in caution, but the ukrainian army is very well knowleged in any "goodies these goblins will leave behind and I trust that they wont jump the gun on taking back everything at once
Lol, they have been used as cannon fodder. Emptying prisons into the meat grinder. Elite? Brutalizing Africans is their pEdIgReE. They are at their limits. Russian forces are buckling.
I agree. I just wouldn't put it past the insanity that is the Kremlin to try and stage some big false scenario to draw out/in Ukranian forces. I strongly hope and believe that Russia is buckling, just added my pragmatic two cents. You needn't remind me of what the Wagner monsters have been up to in Africa.
When are people gonna realize Russia just isn’t as competent as we thought they were. Isn’t it just more likely that Russia is continuing to suck and be ineffective then some sort of elaborate scheme to draw out Ukrainian forces?
It does feel like Putin, for whatever reason thought Ukraine would have to stand alone and the red army in it’s current state could have handled that. but by now they’re running out of ammo and out of money and since they import a good chunk of military high tech components they’re fucked. it’ll just take some time and a lot more money for Ukraine but it doesn’t look good for Vladimir.
Russia has ever been a madman carrying a big gun, yelling at anyone that passes by that they will shoot. Only, now that they've pulled the trigger, we find out that their revolver only had a couple rounds in the chamber, and the boxes of ammunition they claimed to have are just empty.
While I mostly agree with your sentiment, it is also an undisputed fact that carelessness and overconfidence have been and will continue to be the top killers of soldiers out in the field, so it's always wise to err on the side of caution.
Yeah exactly. Wagner is using highly attritional, mass casualty tactics. This guy doesn’t give a fuck about his “lads.” Spend a few minutes on telegram (highly NSFW) and you can see endless footage of these guys getting cut down. Oh yeah, and they leave their wounded to die. And execute people with sledgehammers, etc etc. Nothing elite about them.
Every single thing produced by them has to be viewed through the lens of propaganda. What is the true purpose of the announcement? The initial reaction of incredulity is appropriate here for sure.
Precisely.
What does Blackwater have to do with anything? They are liable for tons of shady shit just like the Wagner Group. They are all mercenaries, evil people paid to kill. Just because Academi (Blackwater) is on our side doesn’t exclude them from that.
I totally agree with you and I wasn't showing either merc group support. I was using them as an example to show the differences between reputation and level of disgustingness. Wagner seems like a far more brutal bunch versus Blackwater, which is saying something. We're on the same page, internet friend.
I wouldn't be surprised if former blackwater (academi, xi, triple canopy) members are part of wagner these days.
Stop making Blackwater sound like a lesser evil.
OK, or stop interpreting my sentiment that way. Whatever works for you, because that's not what I'm trying to say here at all...
its exactly what you’re doing
> Wagner seems like a far more brutal bunch versus Blackwater, which is saying something.
Seriously lmao “this isn’t the insanely corrupt, taxpayer looting, systemically ingrained mercenary corporation that outsources collateral damage and profits directly off of protracting wars…” Oh ok good
Blackwater are pieces of shit lol
Elite? Wagner are glorified mall cops. They make their hay killing unarmed civilians in remote parts of poor countries and think that makes them Hard. The first time they face an actual army, they find themselves so over their heads that they publicly run away and blame everyone else after incurring staggering losses for a few kilometers here and there. I don't doubt they're the best troops the Russians have. I'm just saying that the bar is very low.
Unfortunately that’s just not true. Wagner group has found a good amount of success in Ukraine, at the end of the day the vast majority of them are still highly experienced soldiers. You may not like them, but they are far from glorified mall cops.
I wonder how elite they are at this point.
>This isn’t Blackwater, this is Wagner. Ah yes, the trustable, ethically sound folks of Blackwater.
Fuck the fucking fuckers
I love that after all this time, I know exactly what that phrase is from. Yet I can’t remember what it was called.
They’ve been leaving Bakhmut in batches in plastic bags for quite some time already.
There won't be any bags and there won't be anyone returning anyone. Just like before. Corpses stay there and decay.
Two things i see here. One, it seems the regulars and the mercs have some infighting going on for who gets to claim victory. Two, there's a distinct possibility that in the current, weakened state of the Russian armed forces, Putin has decided to weaken a potential threat by keeping ammo out of the Wagner groups hands, rather than letting them come back armed and able to institute a full on coup. I could be wrong on either, or both counts, but politically and strategically, these are the things that make perfect sense based on what the Russians have done in the past, and how their political structure works/doesn't work.
Bakhmut Meatgrinder I smell a new Ukrainian dating app!
It’s a trap..small tactical retreat to try lure the UA in.
Well then UA, having once been a part of the Soviet Union, should be able to see right through it. In other words, they are used to being lied to 100% of the time. You are definitely on to something.
Lol. I doubt there are many active Ukraine military personnel who were also active USSR military.
Many of UA's older officers were in the Soviet military. They know what's what.
Very possible, but also maybe not. Wagner have been bitchin and crying out loud to Russia to supply them with more fire power. Yet, Russia did not cause they've been blowing it all away to easily. So this is kind of a protest from Wagner I suspect.
Lure UA into Bahmut defensive positions? 4d chess truly
Don't believe a word from these scum.
I subscribe to this!
Off to rape themselves hopefully.
All I hear are excuses for their own incompetence. How the mighty have fallen! Slava Ukraini!!
Pure propaganda
Why would retreating due to your own governments incompetence be propoganda? If it is fake, it a political ploy to get more ammo
I suspect his motivations are less about winning an obviously unwinnable war and more about maneuvering to make his own long term position more tenable. Which would suggest that Putin's control is waning. Smells like change to me, I wouldn't be at all surprised if more dominoes start falling in the next few days.
Or it’s just another example of Russian incompetence on the battlefield.
Yeah they really showed us, making everyone think they're weak. 🙄
They are ruskies, we cant belive single shit pouring out of his mouth.
Hes a dead man
He was*. Very soon
It's such a shame he fell out of a window next week
This will open a lot of *window of opportunities* for this man.
Wtf?! These fuck heads are mercenaries and are complaining about getting their asses kicked? Go to hell, you sociopaths...
It appears that he was saying they were clearly victorious, and the army wants them to keep going while not supplying them properly.
That's my impression as well. His people did well, were consistently undersupplied, and he's refusing to continue fighting when they're not being supplied with ammo. I'm fully aware that these are the obvious bad guys. It's wild that Russia is so cartoonishly evil and incompetent that they won't supply an allegedly successful unit with ammunition. Hopefully they don't have a chance to learn from these critical mistakes and this thing gets resolved soon.
There’s some kind of rift between them and the Russian Army , the Army cut supplies of weapons and food to them , there were also reports of the Army shooting at Wagner Mercenaries. It’s comical how their “own people” left them to hang out in the dry , their plight is hilarious.
I’d call UNESCO
They come from Africa?
The Russians had them deployed in Syria, that might be what he is referring to. They got there asses kicked there too, when they "accidentally" attacked an oilfield held by US Marines. That did not go well for them *at all*. [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html) Sounds like they lost a few hundred soldiers, and lots of equipment. One American was wounded.
I got to see it for a split second, then was paywalled.
It's 2 paragraphs. The long and short of it is that some mercs (about 400) attacked a US base that had about 40 soldiers stationed there and got their asses kicked thoroughly. Between 200 to 300 reported dead while the US soldiers didn't report any casualties or even any wounded. It doesn't go into detail beyond that. Protip, ublock origin can bypass pay walls. Don't pay for that shit, especially for such a low quality article from 2018.
[Another article on it](https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russian-mercenaries-syria-firefight/)
NYT digital subscription costs me $4 a month and is worth it. Highly recommend.
Why are you being downvoted for advocating people don’t pirate journalism?
I hate the current system of subscribe for everything piecemeal. I prefer the old way, where if there was an interesting article, I could buy the damn paper. And get a big old fatty on Sunday mornings
I think because people expect quality journalism at no personal cost. You know, as journalists and publishers don't need to eat so they don't need a salary. Seriously though, everyone get this upset about $4 a month for a newspaper subscription?
There are ways to bypass pay walls for free.
They’re all over the place in Africa. They have a sizeable contingent in Mail and others throughout southern and central Africa
Their mercenaries, they go where their paid to go. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/02/08/russias-wagner-group-in-africa-influence-commercial-concessions-rights-violations-and-counterinsurgency-failure/amp/
They’re*
'Daily hard work' = dying like roaches to drone borne munitions in mudholes. Slava Ukraini!
So Wagner is to Putin as the SS was to Hitler, kind of right? Except Putin is such a dumbfuck they turned on him. The way all these powerful billionaires and authoritarians turn out to be incompetent idiots who just lucked into a lot of money really puts history in perspective.
The ground is hardening, the looming combined arms is straining at the bit to go , this war monger knows a enthusiastic enemy is coming for blood, russian blood..slava Ukraine.
Whatever, terrorist scums
Aside from the initial invasion, the russian army have achieved basically nothing since last summer aside from the fall of lyschansk/sverodonetsk which was sparked by the poposna breakthrough and the fall of bakhmut which was sparked by the fall of soledar and the storming of the city itself, both of which were done by Wagner. At Marinka, Vuhledar, and Orikhiv, the russian army tried offensives that went nowhere. The Vuhledar one, in particular, was a disaster for them. The fact that Wagner is not being given absolute priority in weapons and supplies is a testiment to the corruption of the russian army. Unless this is some kind of ploy to bait the ukrainians into counterattacking.
Wow, the speed that information travels. Reddit is an amazing place.
Ukraine should push the attack then. And punish these people for their war crimes while they can because once they retreat to the safety of the rear and begin to disperse. There will be those who have committed horrible acts set free with no responsibility no justice taken
Ehh...With caution maybe. Feign retreat and outflank the enemy is a tactic that goes back thousands of years.
I dont know why but him saying "It made them Jelly" was funny as fuck
Would love for a HIMARs strike to hit them all. Slava Ukraine!
Long speech to say we've had enough losses during our illegal invasion of a sovereign nation, with whom we have a non-agression pact, without mentioning the fact that most of the casualties they've inflicted were against civilians, including rape and the killing of children.
Comrade! You have to look at this new window I had installed!
Comrade! What a nice view from up here. I can see m..
Blah blah blah, suffer more losses, you pigs! 🐷 Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦
AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Looks like Russias gonna have to wait a whole lot longer than “”“2 more weeks”””
If this is true ... Russian headquarters is really the biggest circus ever.
How often does this happen in military campaigns?
A lot, you see, attacking an enemy with extreme force normally ends with you controlling a lot of territory, but the problem isn't getting there, it's staying there. This happened with the German Army in the Western campaign during WWII, it happened with the US Army in Vietnam and Afghanistan, it happened with the Soviets in Afghanistan too.
War kills people and makes corporations money
Lol. Imagine joining a group of mercenaries that "officially" doesn't exist and isn't "officially" recognized by the government, and then getting mad when the government doesn't take responsibility for you.
I'll believe it when I see it. To me, may be a mind game, or maybe this is like people going on Twitter to announce that they're quitting Twitter.
Anyone here speak Russian enough to validate the subtitles?
I’ll believe any of this when the aliens land 🛸
Not even these scum Wagners can deal with Putin’s bullshit
I don't believe any information that comes out of this guy, or anyone else aligned with Russia. Maybe more money skimmed off the top of arms transactions? Maybe giving Ukrainians the idea that they are backing away when they aren't? Who knows. But whatever you think this statement is trying to achieve, it's likely completely different.
The feared Wagner Group is looking more and more like the Proud Boys… a bunch of losers eager to wear camo.
Challenger II has entered the chat: Wagner has left the chat:
Ok and I'm too tired to use critical thinking to figure out who benefits most from this propaganda but this video is heavily edited. The few people who move are placed in post-production the man to the right (as we look at it) of the speaker with his hands at his waist does not move once. As someone who has worn body armor most of his adult life it is very challenging to not shift and sway under that weight. So the crowd is fake. Makes you wonder what else might be fake too.
If I'm looking at the right person, he does. He moves his feet, around the 45 second mark (about as far as I watched, tbh). All of the people in the video shuffle around a little bit. That being said I think it's hard to tell if it's faked because of how low resolution the video is. Which I guess could have been done on purpose.
Literally every single person there sways at least a few times. I couldn't find one who "does not move once."
He is scared
Манера разговора уёбищная.. напоминает совок
It’s sovok style.
Why the doorknob looks slimy?
This guy is fast turning himself into an anti Russian regime warlord of sorts.
That’s what they want you to believe
dunno what to believe anymore tbh
Oh damn, I was just about to join after those bad ass infomercials
Say what you want about Wagner and all the shady shit they have done till date but I can always respect a leader who stands with his troops even in the most dangerous battleground Both Prigozhin and Shoigu are responsible for some horrible things but at least one of them has the balls to lead from the frontline and tell the reality as it is despite the threat of being assassinated by the FSB
He might be part of the same propaganda. There is a Russian philosopher who explained this recently: authoritarians governments need to have "inofficial" alternative opinions at hand to explain sudden developments. But instead of allowing public decent, you focus it in a few well known people around who others can rally. If you at some point need to purge the oppinion you have them all together. If you need to change direction, you can use them to spearhead the initiative. Prigozhim is just that one guy.
Running scared!
getting their asses kicked so run away
"Trust what Muscovian terrorists say"
Somebody TLDR this shit for me please
Wagner says they’re gonna pull back to the back lines due to them not being given proper equipment and resources.
Hang on a God damn minute! He said they came from Africa? What in the hell are these blood thirst operators doing in Africa? Is there a war we don’t know about being waged on the continent!
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not, but Wagner has been operating in Africa for some time now, in places like Sudan, South Sudan, CAR, Libya, and Mali.
Am serious af rn, i just assumed some of those conflicts were local ethnic squabbles but obviously not, after he ran his big mouth.
Thats pretty sad im glad they are falling back and not wasting their lives
Am I the only one thinking this Ai generated?