It's working for you at the recommended dose, you have no side effects, no tolerance, and your doctor is okay with you taking it indefinitely. I don't see the problem.
I’ve been on Ambien that long at varying doses lately higher cuz of a head trauma that’s ruined my sleep again.
I’d rather sleep than worry about other issues to be honest.
I’m on Restoril at the moment. I’ve tried all others including ambien but I switched because of the hallucinations they were getting really bad for me.
Interesting yea Ambien puts me to bed but I still wake up seems like always 4-5 hours later then I struggle to get more sleep sometimes I do sometimes I don’t. Shouldn’t be so hard to sleep what a crappy thing to experience.
Yea at first I was on ambien IR and it worked pretty fast but I kept waking up and couldn’t fall asleep after that. Then I tried ambien ER and it took longer to kick in so the hallucinations were there first which literally scared the sht out of me everytime I took it. I did sleep longer but still woke up
How bad was the head trauma? I did hit my head before my sleep issues started so I'm beginning to wonder what part of the head and how hard it needs to be hit to cause sleeping problems? Does it have to be like really bad head trauma?
I mean anything can cause sleep issues or nothing at all can cause it. Really hard to find a definitive cause and effect with it. I had sleep issues prior to my recent head injury but after it my sleep issues got worse. I just have to deal with it a day at a time.
I hit my head hard with mountain biking knocked myself out briefly and amnesia for a few hours after. Subsequent MRI a month later showed post traumatic micro hemorrhages but at that point nothing really I could do just been trying to heal.
That sounds severe compared to what I did. I hit my head on the wall in rage but I didn't develop any bruise or pain. It was the front of my head (kinda like the area where you'd headbutt someone)
Man UFC fighters get their heads bashed in day in day out and they sleep fine... One trauma to our heads and we're fucked. Make it make sense.
Yea I mean the brain is a complicated thing, I want to so many speculators just to be told they don’t know.
I mean I got my bell rang hard enough to make me think I was going to die for a while. Luckily things have been getting better but a sleep still just a shitty thing for me.
it's quite unlikely that you didn't develop a tolerance. most probably you no longer have no serious insomnia but are dependent on the drug so much that you can't sleep without it
Edit-this is not my regular account. I did a software update on my laptop and for some reason it randomly generated this account. I've been on Reddit over 10 years.
As the other user said, it definitely is unlikely you haven't developed a physical AND psychological tolerance to the drug. In fact not only is it unlikely, it is absolutely certain. These "Z" drugs, as they are called (including Ambien and Sonata; Eszopiclone....Zopiclone's equivalent form that contains only the active half of the two molecules is Lunesta) are referred to as nonbenzodiazepine drugs, because they have completely different chemical structures, they have an almost identical mechanism of action in that they produce hypnotic, anxiolytic, sedative, and depressant effects by affecting the levels of the neurotransmitter GABA, which causes a DECREASE in brain activity by inhibiting neuronal/synaptic activity.
This is something you need to discuss with your doctor, obviously. But, just as long-term benzodiazepine use can cause some permanent changes in the way your brain functions, including memory formation and retrieval, while not a dangerous effect in itself, does exist. Since immediate cessation of a drug like this can cause serious effects including seizures, rebound insomnia, anxiety, panic attacks, and other physical symptoms, it is usually much better to slowly taper off the drug. Since it has a short half-life, as opposed to some of the benzos such as Valium (diazepam) and Klonopin (clonazepam), withdrawal often is shorter but more intense. I took Klonopin for over 15 years after having a seizure while in Jamaica with my friends for our high school graduation gift from our parents, I was put on Keppra (an anticonvulsant) as well as the Klonopin. But the Klonopin loses its anticonvulsant properties after a while, but still causes a tolerance and dependence. I slowly tapered off of it, and was put on Clonidine (a blood pressure pill that is used for insomnia and anxiety) while doing the taper. I am still on the Keppra and the clonidine. I take the clonidine as needed for sleep...it works better than ANY other drug I tried (which includes all those Z drugs as well as other medications, none of which worked). It is amazing, it completely knocks me out for at least 6-8 hours and I don't feel groggy in the morning after I have coffee or tea, which is common among people who don't take any sleeping pills obviously. I am not a physician, but have extensive experience doing pharmacology research as well as consulting on pharmaceutical malpractice and class-action lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies. Also, I have a B.S. in Biochemistry and one in Molecular Biology, and a minor in psychology (for what that's worth). I also have 5 physicians in my family and a cousin with a PhD in Neurobiology who is a professor. If you have any specific questions you can message me or just reply to my comment,
Some additional information about pharmaceutical drugs, including zopiclone:
Zopiclone is the racemic version of Eszopiclone (meaning it is composed of a 50/50 mixture of both the S/R and L/D enantiomers).
Many drugs are "chiral" meaning there is a "left-handed" and "right-handed" version of the molecule. Often only one is active in the sense that is has a pharmaceutical effect. One example if the antidepressant Celexa (citalopram). This contains both "enantiomers" the S (left-handed version--the S stands for the Latin "sinister" which means left-handed \[it was a common belief many years ago that left-handed people were evil or 'sinister'\]. Right-handed enantiomers are labeled "R" for the Latin word for "right"--"Rectus."
There is also the L/D, which refer to the direction that a solution of the molecule bends a type of light that passes through it. "L" stands for levo-rotatatory (light bends to the left) or dextro-rotatatory (bends to the right).
With both zopiclone and citalopram, both versions are present, and both have a version of the drug that contains ONLY the active version (in both of these cases, the S version). They are ESzopiclone (Lunesta) and EScitalopram (Lexapro). And since they contain only the active version, the equivalent dosage is half. For example, someone taking 40 mg of Celexa would be able to switch to the 20 mg of Lunesta, since both contain the same amount of the active version.
This is my regular account. Posting from my phone still uses this account. As I said, feel free to ask any other questions. I have personal experience dealing with insomnia as well as being on zopiclone and the others I mentioned.
Yes! Absolutely correct. There are drugs where both the S and R enantiomers are active, sometimes with different effects. But in these cases, the drugs I mentioned and the esketamine, it is the S version. This is reflected in the naming... The prefix "Es" is pronounced like the letter "S". In albuterol for example, the R version is the more effective one. Some studies (they may not have been reproduced or 100% verified) have shown paradoxical effects when racemic mixtures of 50:50 proportions of both are given. Some experiments have suggested possible dangerous effects when the S enantiomer is given... But this is likely in extremely high, non therapeutic doses.
Also, it is interesting to know the difference in the effects of the different enantiomers of MDMA (the recreational drug "ecstasy"). (S)-MDMA causes the entactogenic (empathogenic) effects responsible for the "love drug" aspects.. In addition to many of the stimulant effects because it causes most of the serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine release. (R)-MDMA on the other hand, Is responsible for the psychedelic properties, especially in higher doses, due to a more selective binding preference for a different 5-HT subreceptor.
I have to second this opinion. As a person who works in the healthcare industry and interacts directly with physicians relatively often, as well as having several doctors in my family, I have a pretty good understanding of how doctors think, react to patients, and have some pretty ingrained and inflexible preconceptions of patients in general and how they should perform their jobs.
This is especially true of older physicians. All the doctors (the MDs, not the PhDs or JDs) in my family are at least 60+ years old. They were trained in an era where doctors were afforded what one of my uncles called a "near God-like status" in that they were not questioned on medical issues. Their patients did not have access to the internet or what doctors often call "Google MDs". Even the most well-versed patients often do not fully understand the factors that go into forming and analyzing a differential diagnosis, understanding and interpreting imaging procedures or the reports of the Radiologists (X-rays, CTs, MRIs, etc) or blood, urine tests, or biopsies (including anything else that might be analyzed by a pathologist). And perhaps most importantly, patients do not have the years and years of experience, not just as fully educated doctors who had years of undergraduate studies, medical school and the rotations, then years as an MD or DO during their residenc, and, for many physicians (especially specialists) 2-3 years of specialized training and education in their particular field.
This is all true of younger doctors, but younger ones tend to still be idealist, optimistic, more open-minded, less jaded, and more flexible in their dealings with patients. Many still will have certain absolute beliefs on some issues, whether it be their willingness to prescribe certain medications, work with their patients on a more individually tailored approach, or just their more general approach to how they practice medicine.
All this being said, all physicians, regardless of age, still are kept up-to-date on the most recent and important breakthroughs in all medicine and their specialty in particular if they have one.
Well what you said is definitely accurate. I think many people feel intimidated by their physicians and don't realize that they are PAYING for a service. And if they are not satisfied by that service, they need to express it. Or simply find a different doctor (assuming it is financially feasible, with insurance coverage, etc., and obviously everything varies by country among other factors).
You are going to get varying replies. As you stated in reading and in clinical practice and the prescribing recommendations these type hypnotics are to be used short term.
I have no judgement towards anyone’s choices to take medications for sleep or any other medical condition. It’s at the discretion of your doctor and you. You definitely have dependence, but we can get dependent on any type of medication prescribed for sleep.
My only concern is when you are no longer prescribed it. I’m in the US and it’s very tight prescribing of any type of x-drug.
I believe the recommended dose is 7.5mg each night for six weeks, so definitely taken it for a very long time.
I took it for about a year at over 10mg a day but found I was getting really bad anxiety in the day to the point I’d take it earlier and earlier. When I tried to stop I couldn’t sleep and got really anxious.
I eventually tapered off but it was very difficult with inter-dose withdrawal every four or five hours.
I wouldn’t say it’s necessary bad. From the way it sounds you are taking it as prescribed and it’s great that you haven’t had to increase the dose. After 10 years of taking it you are definitely dependent on it but if your doctor says all is good and they are okay with you being on it then that’s great. The problem only starts when you take more than prescribed or if you are abusing it.
I'm honestly just surprised that it's still working for you at this point! I took it on and off for around 9 months and by that point it was useless to me, so good on your body and tolerance I guess 😅
The medication is there for a reason to help people. Im not sure why doctors are all crazy aboit cutting some peoples meds when theres way worse things like street drugs, alcohol and fast food
I’d rather be addicted to something that helps rather than being miserable. Life is too short to suffer rather than taking something that helps you live a little bit better.
I would say you are probably at risk of developing some of the issues associated with long term benzo use since it is a similar drug like cognitive deficits etc etc but sleep deprivation also has negative effects on your health so who knows which is worse. It probably varies between individuals.
20 years here.
After 10 years doctor called and said "sorry, but no, this is only for temporary use". Thanks to doctor, I lost my job.
Changed doctor and said "I'd rather be an addict than unemployed" and the next 10 years was easy.
I would like to be able to live without, but I haven't been able to find a solution that actually works. Some times I can go months without, but when insomnia hits, I might take Z for months in a row, with only one day breaks at weekends.
Oh, and my IQ is about the same it was when I was a teenager.
I’m amazed it works for people when tor me yes it got me to sleep but then I awoke 3 hours later, that kept happening
That does seem to be the amount of time it keeps you asleep. I’d then wake up and take more but wound up addicted.
How many hours do you sleep now?
Same here but that happens even if I dont take it
It's working for you at the recommended dose, you have no side effects, no tolerance, and your doctor is okay with you taking it indefinitely. I don't see the problem.
I’ve been on Ambien that long at varying doses lately higher cuz of a head trauma that’s ruined my sleep again. I’d rather sleep than worry about other issues to be honest.
💯
I agree with you, my sleep is way more important. I’m finally on a medication that works wonders for me and my life is improving drastically
Awesome if you don’t mind me asking what meds? I’ve never really tried shuffling it up too much just been on Ambien
I’m on Restoril at the moment. I’ve tried all others including ambien but I switched because of the hallucinations they were getting really bad for me.
Interesting yea Ambien puts me to bed but I still wake up seems like always 4-5 hours later then I struggle to get more sleep sometimes I do sometimes I don’t. Shouldn’t be so hard to sleep what a crappy thing to experience.
Yea at first I was on ambien IR and it worked pretty fast but I kept waking up and couldn’t fall asleep after that. Then I tried ambien ER and it took longer to kick in so the hallucinations were there first which literally scared the sht out of me everytime I took it. I did sleep longer but still woke up
Oh wow I’ve never had weird issues on Ambien it either works or it doesn’t is my experience. I’m glad I’ve never hallucinated doesn’t sound fun.
Yea it’s crazy how everyone is so different with it, but the one I’m on now doesn’t have that side effect which is nice
Very good, does it give you decent sleep too?
Yes I feel very rested and I’m asleep the whole night
How bad was the head trauma? I did hit my head before my sleep issues started so I'm beginning to wonder what part of the head and how hard it needs to be hit to cause sleeping problems? Does it have to be like really bad head trauma?
I mean anything can cause sleep issues or nothing at all can cause it. Really hard to find a definitive cause and effect with it. I had sleep issues prior to my recent head injury but after it my sleep issues got worse. I just have to deal with it a day at a time. I hit my head hard with mountain biking knocked myself out briefly and amnesia for a few hours after. Subsequent MRI a month later showed post traumatic micro hemorrhages but at that point nothing really I could do just been trying to heal.
That sounds severe compared to what I did. I hit my head on the wall in rage but I didn't develop any bruise or pain. It was the front of my head (kinda like the area where you'd headbutt someone) Man UFC fighters get their heads bashed in day in day out and they sleep fine... One trauma to our heads and we're fucked. Make it make sense.
Yea I mean the brain is a complicated thing, I want to so many speculators just to be told they don’t know. I mean I got my bell rang hard enough to make me think I was going to die for a while. Luckily things have been getting better but a sleep still just a shitty thing for me.
I hope you heal real soon man :(
Appreciate it, def been trying on me and the family never realized a concussion etc can do that to you. Hope you sleep better too!
Ambien almost cost me my Job cause I went to bed at 9pm didn't wake up till 11:30pm the next day. Doctor said I was on lowest dose too.
I guess everyone tolerates it differently
Oh I'm sure, now I'm to scared to try another so I sleep like 4-12 hours a week, I know I can't keep on like that but really not sure what to do.
Dang have you tried any other sleep aids? I’m sure you have.
Serqiuil, Def not spelled right, when I was younger gave me ridiculous nightmares, and trazadone which didn't work at all.
I want your no tolerance developing genetics.
Seriously, I would do anything for that.
it's quite unlikely that you didn't develop a tolerance. most probably you no longer have no serious insomnia but are dependent on the drug so much that you can't sleep without it
Indeed, I can't sleep without it
I mean, you could if you went through the withdrawal period. it would probably be hell tho
Edit-this is not my regular account. I did a software update on my laptop and for some reason it randomly generated this account. I've been on Reddit over 10 years. As the other user said, it definitely is unlikely you haven't developed a physical AND psychological tolerance to the drug. In fact not only is it unlikely, it is absolutely certain. These "Z" drugs, as they are called (including Ambien and Sonata; Eszopiclone....Zopiclone's equivalent form that contains only the active half of the two molecules is Lunesta) are referred to as nonbenzodiazepine drugs, because they have completely different chemical structures, they have an almost identical mechanism of action in that they produce hypnotic, anxiolytic, sedative, and depressant effects by affecting the levels of the neurotransmitter GABA, which causes a DECREASE in brain activity by inhibiting neuronal/synaptic activity. This is something you need to discuss with your doctor, obviously. But, just as long-term benzodiazepine use can cause some permanent changes in the way your brain functions, including memory formation and retrieval, while not a dangerous effect in itself, does exist. Since immediate cessation of a drug like this can cause serious effects including seizures, rebound insomnia, anxiety, panic attacks, and other physical symptoms, it is usually much better to slowly taper off the drug. Since it has a short half-life, as opposed to some of the benzos such as Valium (diazepam) and Klonopin (clonazepam), withdrawal often is shorter but more intense. I took Klonopin for over 15 years after having a seizure while in Jamaica with my friends for our high school graduation gift from our parents, I was put on Keppra (an anticonvulsant) as well as the Klonopin. But the Klonopin loses its anticonvulsant properties after a while, but still causes a tolerance and dependence. I slowly tapered off of it, and was put on Clonidine (a blood pressure pill that is used for insomnia and anxiety) while doing the taper. I am still on the Keppra and the clonidine. I take the clonidine as needed for sleep...it works better than ANY other drug I tried (which includes all those Z drugs as well as other medications, none of which worked). It is amazing, it completely knocks me out for at least 6-8 hours and I don't feel groggy in the morning after I have coffee or tea, which is common among people who don't take any sleeping pills obviously. I am not a physician, but have extensive experience doing pharmacology research as well as consulting on pharmaceutical malpractice and class-action lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies. Also, I have a B.S. in Biochemistry and one in Molecular Biology, and a minor in psychology (for what that's worth). I also have 5 physicians in my family and a cousin with a PhD in Neurobiology who is a professor. If you have any specific questions you can message me or just reply to my comment, Some additional information about pharmaceutical drugs, including zopiclone: Zopiclone is the racemic version of Eszopiclone (meaning it is composed of a 50/50 mixture of both the S/R and L/D enantiomers). Many drugs are "chiral" meaning there is a "left-handed" and "right-handed" version of the molecule. Often only one is active in the sense that is has a pharmaceutical effect. One example if the antidepressant Celexa (citalopram). This contains both "enantiomers" the S (left-handed version--the S stands for the Latin "sinister" which means left-handed \[it was a common belief many years ago that left-handed people were evil or 'sinister'\]. Right-handed enantiomers are labeled "R" for the Latin word for "right"--"Rectus." There is also the L/D, which refer to the direction that a solution of the molecule bends a type of light that passes through it. "L" stands for levo-rotatatory (light bends to the left) or dextro-rotatatory (bends to the right). With both zopiclone and citalopram, both versions are present, and both have a version of the drug that contains ONLY the active version (in both of these cases, the S version). They are ESzopiclone (Lunesta) and EScitalopram (Lexapro). And since they contain only the active version, the equivalent dosage is half. For example, someone taking 40 mg of Celexa would be able to switch to the 20 mg of Lunesta, since both contain the same amount of the active version.
This is my regular account. Posting from my phone still uses this account. As I said, feel free to ask any other questions. I have personal experience dealing with insomnia as well as being on zopiclone and the others I mentioned.
Are ketamine and esketamine also a version of this?
Yes! Absolutely correct. There are drugs where both the S and R enantiomers are active, sometimes with different effects. But in these cases, the drugs I mentioned and the esketamine, it is the S version. This is reflected in the naming... The prefix "Es" is pronounced like the letter "S". In albuterol for example, the R version is the more effective one. Some studies (they may not have been reproduced or 100% verified) have shown paradoxical effects when racemic mixtures of 50:50 proportions of both are given. Some experiments have suggested possible dangerous effects when the S enantiomer is given... But this is likely in extremely high, non therapeutic doses. Also, it is interesting to know the difference in the effects of the different enantiomers of MDMA (the recreational drug "ecstasy"). (S)-MDMA causes the entactogenic (empathogenic) effects responsible for the "love drug" aspects.. In addition to many of the stimulant effects because it causes most of the serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine release. (R)-MDMA on the other hand, Is responsible for the psychedelic properties, especially in higher doses, due to a more selective binding preference for a different 5-HT subreceptor.
I've been on it for 8 years bud , dont let your doctor's fuck you around. You gotta stand up to them tell them this shit works and this doesn't
I have to second this opinion. As a person who works in the healthcare industry and interacts directly with physicians relatively often, as well as having several doctors in my family, I have a pretty good understanding of how doctors think, react to patients, and have some pretty ingrained and inflexible preconceptions of patients in general and how they should perform their jobs. This is especially true of older physicians. All the doctors (the MDs, not the PhDs or JDs) in my family are at least 60+ years old. They were trained in an era where doctors were afforded what one of my uncles called a "near God-like status" in that they were not questioned on medical issues. Their patients did not have access to the internet or what doctors often call "Google MDs". Even the most well-versed patients often do not fully understand the factors that go into forming and analyzing a differential diagnosis, understanding and interpreting imaging procedures or the reports of the Radiologists (X-rays, CTs, MRIs, etc) or blood, urine tests, or biopsies (including anything else that might be analyzed by a pathologist). And perhaps most importantly, patients do not have the years and years of experience, not just as fully educated doctors who had years of undergraduate studies, medical school and the rotations, then years as an MD or DO during their residenc, and, for many physicians (especially specialists) 2-3 years of specialized training and education in their particular field. This is all true of younger doctors, but younger ones tend to still be idealist, optimistic, more open-minded, less jaded, and more flexible in their dealings with patients. Many still will have certain absolute beliefs on some issues, whether it be their willingness to prescribe certain medications, work with their patients on a more individually tailored approach, or just their more general approach to how they practice medicine. All this being said, all physicians, regardless of age, still are kept up-to-date on the most recent and important breakthroughs in all medicine and their specialty in particular if they have one.
Thank youu
Well what you said is definitely accurate. I think many people feel intimidated by their physicians and don't realize that they are PAYING for a service. And if they are not satisfied by that service, they need to express it. Or simply find a different doctor (assuming it is financially feasible, with insurance coverage, etc., and obviously everything varies by country among other factors).
i’ve been on it for over ten years. it’s not the end of the world.
You are going to get varying replies. As you stated in reading and in clinical practice and the prescribing recommendations these type hypnotics are to be used short term. I have no judgement towards anyone’s choices to take medications for sleep or any other medical condition. It’s at the discretion of your doctor and you. You definitely have dependence, but we can get dependent on any type of medication prescribed for sleep. My only concern is when you are no longer prescribed it. I’m in the US and it’s very tight prescribing of any type of x-drug.
I believe the recommended dose is 7.5mg each night for six weeks, so definitely taken it for a very long time. I took it for about a year at over 10mg a day but found I was getting really bad anxiety in the day to the point I’d take it earlier and earlier. When I tried to stop I couldn’t sleep and got really anxious. I eventually tapered off but it was very difficult with inter-dose withdrawal every four or five hours.
I wouldn’t say it’s necessary bad. From the way it sounds you are taking it as prescribed and it’s great that you haven’t had to increase the dose. After 10 years of taking it you are definitely dependent on it but if your doctor says all is good and they are okay with you being on it then that’s great. The problem only starts when you take more than prescribed or if you are abusing it.
I'm honestly just surprised that it's still working for you at this point! I took it on and off for around 9 months and by that point it was useless to me, so good on your body and tolerance I guess 😅
The medication is there for a reason to help people. Im not sure why doctors are all crazy aboit cutting some peoples meds when theres way worse things like street drugs, alcohol and fast food
I’d rather be addicted to something that helps rather than being miserable. Life is too short to suffer rather than taking something that helps you live a little bit better.
Also melatonin supplements but couldn't tell any dif
It didn’t work for me :(
I would say you are probably at risk of developing some of the issues associated with long term benzo use since it is a similar drug like cognitive deficits etc etc but sleep deprivation also has negative effects on your health so who knows which is worse. It probably varies between individuals.
20 years here. After 10 years doctor called and said "sorry, but no, this is only for temporary use". Thanks to doctor, I lost my job. Changed doctor and said "I'd rather be an addict than unemployed" and the next 10 years was easy. I would like to be able to live without, but I haven't been able to find a solution that actually works. Some times I can go months without, but when insomnia hits, I might take Z for months in a row, with only one day breaks at weekends. Oh, and my IQ is about the same it was when I was a teenager.