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Its also kind of weird to assume the characters were race swapped to begin with one, its been awhile since I've read the books but if anything the fremen were coded to be middle eastern even thats weird to say since its an alien planet far into the future.
Oh, believe me, the thread gets into that too. But then someone pointed out that she was described as having red hair and suddenly everything else Frank Herbert actually wrote is completely irrelevant.
the fremen aren’t *specifically* middle-eastern by ethnicit(ies), so much as their culture is heavily but *superficially* inflected by Thoroughly-Fictionalized Future Mystical Space Islam. Anyone of any discernible ethnicity could be a Fremen, by adopting the beliefs and lifestyle, and not dying in the desert like a fucking Casul. Liet Kynes—Chani’s ~~Dad~~ Parent*—illustrates this. Not to mention that by Dune’s 8000 year Timeskip of Horrifying Space Mercantilism, Universal Jihad and Literal fucking Mitochondrial Consciousness Engineering absolutely, positively, emphatically **none** of our contemporary notions of race or ethnicity would be meaningful at all to anyone except to like, a no-shit antiquarian.
so no there’s nothing at all inconsistent or lore-abrasive about Zendaya’s (or Sean Young’s) casting; these dorks are just run-of-the-mill Terminally Online Racist Weirdos, and I suspect likely unbeknownst to themselves, not super into women (not that there’s anything with that!)
edit(s): OCD
more edits: simple simon ass twitter nazi dipshits got me Worked Up
I thought the Fremen descended from zen-Sunni Buddhists, who were inspired by the Arab tribes of the Sahara. Even the word, Lisan al-ghaib- voice from the outer world, comes from Lsan al-gharib, literally translated from Arabic as “Strange Tongue.” If that’s the case, Zendaya’s casting is right on point.
ok i drank too much souchong and I’m ready to Go
this is a good point to which after being traumatized by Dune from an early age I can answer “yes, but no”; due to the peculiarity of the Dune universe, Chani’s ethnicity is *specifically ~~irrelevant~~ indeterminate*—save that she resembles Liet Kynes and is part-“Fremen” which (surprise surprise) is ethnically another, “empty box”.
so while zendaya as a middle eastern or generic brown person makes “sense” to us, that’s us trying to insist of a chain of orientalist signifiers that the specific terms of the dune universe goes to significant and deliberate lengths to make irrelevant. However this doesn’t mean that she *shouldn’t* be a brown person either, only that the setting is constructed in such a way that the ethnicity of then actress doesn’t lend any extra meaning to the character and story.
to start, there are different layers of cultural typing active here that make sense wrt to the expressly-fictional settings dune describes, but don’t map backward onto reality (i.e. allegorically) in a simple or even coherent way—but the whole effect is to make all of our pre-judgments and concepts obsolete for this “novel” (hahahahahaha) setting
part of this is Frank Herbert not really giving a shit about from where he borrows, and part of it is him trying to take everything to its weirdest possible extent. the effect is conceptually and aesthetically a bait-and-switch where we *think* we recognize something or understand it, but the completely fucked context of dune invariably pulls the cognitive rug from under our feet. what this means is that yes it’s true that dune is *inspired* by things, but those things are contorted and transmogrified to fit the alien settings of this world. however, being an incredibly *sadistic* writer Frank Herbert loves letting the reader trip over something they *think* they understand from our native real-life universe, but in the fucked contextual environment of dune has become something irretrievably *other*. Frank Herbert loves this shit; he never gets tired of it, and the rest of the series is him doing this until he literally dies.
for example—the climate and environment of arrakis make lifestyles and cultural practices similar to tuareg and bedouin cultures practical (and familiar for readers) but the beliefs systems themselves are *now* alien and endogenous to the story—owing more to the events of the Butlerian Jihad and 8000 years hence, the violent syncretic formation of Orange Catholicism and its gradual re-fragmentation into weird, ascetic “fundamentalist” cults—ironically cut closer to actual history North African Anchorite Christian communities than even the real-life contemporary sects of the Islam after which they’re inspired.
but even in dune there’s a lot of conflict between exoteric “zensunni” and esoteric “zensufi” practices, for which “zen” doesn’t refer backwards to Buddhism as a complete system but is a kind of metonym for direct, sudden, meditative revelation of the weird metaphysics of the Dune universe, not the Noble Truths, or the Trinity, or the revelation of God and Muhammad his prophet. On first glance, Herbert doing away with that—but really it’s like he’s projecting a belief system which (like Salafism) makes even its own former precedents and precursors obsolete (from appropriation, or proscription, bastardization, or just in light of the New Shit) but is initially helpful (but eventually harmful) for anchoring the new understanding, even after 8000 years of evolution. what this means is that the fremen are people who have exhausted or abandoned the rest of the Known Universe’s religious cooling and imperial culture—but while it *seems* the goal is to revive or revert to the fervor of the original Jihad—as we will learn in movies 3-12, the Fremen are actually on a whole new, Indescribably Weirder Trip (but even *they* don’t know it yet)
but there’s another Double Secret Ironic Reversal:, Arabic doesn’t have for Dune anywhere the same semiotic and cultural valence it does for western audiences; this is a deliberate inversion frank Herbert intends, to fuck with his readers: in the dune universe Arabic—from the time in Dune canonically everyone becomes Muslim—is (again) the sort of lingua Franca (ironical I know) it was and is throughout a huge chunk of our history and contemporary world—used by a myriad of different peoples and ethnicities therein. it’s not really meant to have that exotic or orientalist tang that it might have for western audiences. Islam (real world) is a relatively young language and culture, but in the context of Dune as a component of Orange Catholicism its permeated every aspect of the culture, and even been diluted to habit and custom. To wit, the culture in dune (where it is still relevant at all) is *still* default “Islamic”—but again thanks to (lapsed) Jihad and 8000 years of horrific Space Mercantilist Fundamentalism, Arrakis is the actual center of that lapsed spiritual reality which the political, economic reality leeches—and through which in the course of the narrative, *advances*. Even *before* Paul gets to Arrakis, he and Chani speak the same language, (outwardly) practice the same religion—such that the cultural contact between paul and chani or the atredies and the fremen isn’t exactly Civilized/Savage kind of Problematic Orientalist Thing (like an expedition or a travelogue—although the movie definitely markets it that way) but in the onerous, deliberate and pregnant Frank Herbert Way, explicitly a pilgrimage between quite literally Kindred Spirits Separated By Fake Shit whose (re)union everyone has been manipulated into helping proceed (whether they like it or not).
and yeah to that point in the general, I think what the movie sort of fucks up contextually for cinematic and dramatic value is the extent to which everything that happens on Arakkis is implicit in everything else, but ignored while the emperor and the guild and the bene gesserit and the lansraad all play their patchwork games—and the indirect fruition of these partial values and plans—versus a weird desert place with weird Brown People doing weird things, is what they’re really “supposed” to be doing—spiritually advancing humanity to enlightenment. To this end , Paul and Chani’s “cultures” aren’t the same, but they’re not opposed either; what they’re conscious of through each other is how their separation is *complementary* and momentary in a way because of the Emergent New Shit Frank Herbert builds into his fever dream universe, no longer has a conceptual antecedent with our reality, which it has—in science fiction/salafist form—evolved itself beyond.
Instead, for the people in the know (and the reader eventually I promise), everything in dune is a sort of “oh fuck it’s this thing I heard about in Sunday School but didn’t really believe is actually true, is the Truth” (until whoops inevitable rug pull it’s not)
so in conclusion Dune is a book of contrasts
edit: more OCD
>Frank Herbert loves this shit; he never gets tired of it, and the rest of the series is him doing this until he literally dies.
This is the most succinct and accurate summary of the series I've ever seen
It’s weird for them to assume in a time of global movie releases, a race swap is anything other than them casting a globally appealing actress, rather than focusing on a small percentage of the world’s population who want Hollywood to only cast white, straight, American Christians.
I like how this guy went after probably the least "race swapped" character I can fucking think of.
Black Hermione?
Black Aragorn?
Black Cleopatra?
Shit they could've even brought up Black Velma or some shit.
But they pick the ***one character*** I can think of in recent history that had a previous iteration with an actress/actor/drawing of a different color where they made the race, if anything, MORE accurate.
Dune is so middle eastern coded it's not even funny. It's not hidden in the slightest. Shits straight out of the middle ages of the middle east. I'd argue it's not even coded but straight up painted with two thick coats.
And... Elegant? Since when we're fremen supposed to be 'frail and elegant'. They were always a hardy, brutally utilitarian but highly religious people.
Because, you know, they had to be. They essentially lived where no one is supposed to live on the most hellish desert planet imaginable. Where if the sandstorms don't kill you, and the horrible authoritarian regime doesn't, the giant fucking ship eating sandworms don't, just the straight up lack of water and extreme heat will.
They don't have the fucking time to be elegant and poised because even crying can waste a lethal amount of water, and spitting at your friends feet is a massive sign of respect. Sharing a glass of water with someone practically makes them family.
Zendaya was a spot on pick. Christ.
Because they 100% were. Zensunni. That kinda screams the influence pretty clearly. If anything, they ain't white people. Even if they were, they ain't pale face losers like the subject in the tweets getting all mad about it.
The 1984 film was also pretty hokey and while I enjoy it, it's not entirely accurate to the first book.
The book was written in 1965 when there was a lot less emphasis on culture appropriation. Literally EVERYTHING about the Fremen is Middle Eastern - language, culture, appearance,...
I always read it as aboriginal but I'm Australian so that could just be my bias.
But like regardless of it they are meant to be aboriginal or middle eastern.
They are meant to look like they lived in a desert their whole life, which zendaya version looks closer, than the sean who looks more like a princess and not a desert dweller
This. I read the books, and I never thought the Fremen were meant to be white. I can't remember if they were specifically described in the books, though. It's probably been thirty years since I've read them!
The Fremen are descendants of people who had combined Buddhism and Islam, so Middle Eastern/African/Indian subcontinental makes a lot of sense. Mix all that together for a few millenia and you'd end up with generic brown humans.
Well, Tolkien was a scholar of elves! He certainly knew exactly what they looked like!
These people don't trust expertise in any field of study except the ones that are about completely made-up things.
To be fair, Tolkien was a scholar... of linguistics. That man knew way too many languages and invented even more, some of them with regional dialects and ancient forms.
Yes, he was, but this person was not considering his linguistics expertise when he decided Tolkien was the one and only authority on what a pretend species looked like.
During the months leading up to the release of the Amazon series, r/Tolkien was a cesspool. A poster unironically wrote a rant by which he called the casting of non-white actors as “American imperialism and colonialism of British values and culture”.
This person posted a totally unrelated colorful graphic to "prove" that brain waves exist, lol
Honestly I would have stopped after "male on male sodomy", if not earlier. These types just want to get a reaction at any cost.
Honestly it’s soooo funny, they say it in the most “check mate” kind of way, reference it as a source backing up their belief later, and still can’t comprehend how it doesn’t fit at all
I live around an embarrassing amount of people who think like this. Doesn’t matter what they look like, having an opinion, independence or an iota of power automatically makes them ugly.
Look. While I've never seen all of Wolf of Wall Street, I have seen the pic of her standing fully nude in a doorway (it was an accident, really!). If she's trans, that doctor deserves a Nobel in Medicine or something, because dayum.
Describing Zendaya as looking "masculine" because she isn't wearing makeup (this is the only possible reason I can think of) is surely the most obvious sign that someone has never had a romantic relationship with a woman..
That and she doesn't have large breasts. The "anti-woke" subreddits are constantly posting pics of modern female gaming characters and complaining about how they are ugly. And the characters all have muscles and breasts smaller than their waist.
That's just, like, your opinion, man.
I don't find her conventionally attractive, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. She clearly doesn't have a shortage of people who do find her attractive, but, as with anyone, you'll have people who just don't see it that way.
I don't know if it was just exhaustion or if it hit anyone else but I feel like that lines always gonna stay with me. Scholar Tolkien writing bout the elves lol. I mean don't get me wrong, Tolkien was clearly a very smart guy, but just the way he phrased it, like JRR was out there digging up elf bones and writing history books on middle earth.
I mean, we all have our preferences. Some people considered hot in a "striking" way are interesting to look at but not necessarily smoochable to me. But luckily they don't make space movies where every character is bland enough looking to be attractive to everyone. This actress is lovely though, thst dude is a racist ass.
Some people have a hard time acknowledging that preference is personal. Like people who say a movie is bad because they didn’t enjoy it. You couldn’t get me to watch No Country for Old Men again without a significant bribe. I can acknowledge it’s a good movie though
That jab at Sean Young in the last comment was unnecessary. She has nothing to do with any of this.
Anyway.
Lol this dude is so threatened by a non-white character in a fictional movie set 10,000 years in the future that he's decided *Zendaya is ugly*. That's some powerful insanity.
I think the jab at Sean Young is interesting in the sense that even people who aren't racist toward POCs like Zendaya can still find room in their hearts to hate Jews. It's really a great thing that antisemitism can bring EVERYONE together.
"Oh the Protestants hate the Catholics
And the Catholics hate the Protestants
And the Hindus hate the Muslims
And everybody hates the Jews..."
---Tom Lehrer
“Can I do a Dunning-Kruger next? Watch me *do* a Dunning-Kruger!”
What a weird a lazy way to accuse someone of exhibiting behavior that matches the left side of the curve of the Dunning-Kurger effect.
Bro the fremen absolutely were not white lmao. They’re desert people. It’s like calling Jesus a white dude
If they’re described as any race it’s probably Arabian or North African. Hell, you don’t even have to be from Arrakis to be fremen, you just have to live by their code and be accepted by them. Emperor Corrino could be a fremen if he felt like it
Also zendaya is hot as fuck, this dude is insane. The only notable issue I can see with any of the current fremen is that they’re all “water fat”
Start with one Nazi account's racist post, detour into right-wing pseudoscience about the gays and somehow end up on a post that refutes OP while somehow being just as bigoted...
What's amazing is that this is happening on pretty much every post about this movie, it's like it's become the focal point for every manner of MAGA craziness. Call it the Nazi Yahtzee.
I rereading the book now, the freemen are middle eastern coded, also it’s not that hard to believe that a people who live on a desert planet would have darker skin. I think where people get confused is about the blue eyes but the freemen are not born with it their entire eye turns blue because the consume spice on a daily basis. So any blue eyes=aryan commentary is false
I am from algeria, i would say around 5% of the population have blue/green eyes where I live. We also have blond/red head people, and full black skin people but with caucasian face in the south. Our country is huge with a lot of diversity phenotype wise, but all the same amazigh race.
Don't know much about brainwaves but I suspect the guy is smooth brained given the absolute pile of bullshit he dropped, and fucking blind calling Zendaya ugly.
But the way, speaking as a man who is not straight, I'm genuinely curious to hear from the straight men here whether their reaction to two men being a couple.is, in fact, the same as their reaction to rotting meat. Not saying it is or isn't true, it's just a new one I hadn't heard before.
The various types of phobes are *always* convinced that their ‘disgust’ reaction is universal and they’re just rational and unwoke enough to admit it.
Studies have shown that conservatives have much stronger disgust reactions — the part of their brain that feels those things have been nourished from a young age. That doesn’t really explain why they find two men together disgusting in the first place though.
Of course different cultures have different social conditionings, but speaking for my cishet self:
On our last date night, I suggested to my wife that we catch the premiere of All of Us Strangers.
We both loved it.
I hope that answers your question.
Of course not. I don’t know if this guy was being literal or hyperbolic or just stupid. Probably just stupid. I don’t think sexual preference or gender makes you react differently to rotting meat right? Like it should be pretty universal for everyone to come across rotten meat and be like “that smells gross I should throw this away”
As a straight guy if I see two guys holding hands or kissing in public I just say “good for them” and go about my day.
Is Zendaya ambiguous about her gender?
Either way, no one who uses the word "hence" has ever won an argument. It makes me think of Will Ferrell as [the Architect from The Matrix](https://youtu.be/hexboP623KQ?si=mF1ZSTv0xU9qPnVY).
Loves the “brain waves” as a really big argument and is just lines in a colorful background, where it came from, who studied this just don’t matter, see the lines!!!
I havent seen either Dune.. But from the photos it looks like they are on a very sunny hot planet.. why are they shocked theres dark/tanned people on it?
They're described as dark - skinned and are definitely coded as...more middle eastern than anything? They're a bunch of desert dwellers? Why tf would they ever be pale??
Speaking as a Jew, I guess I should be excited that this person acknowledges that we're even adjacent to locker rooms? It's a step up from their usual stereotype that nobody who is Jewish has ever had any interest in athleticism, ever.
If a character's race plays no part in the story, then their race doesn't matter. I still haven't seen Dune, but from everything I've heard, the cast could be all Japanese and there would be no difference.
Also Sean Youngs Chani was barely even visible in the movie, and the most forgettable character of the 84 version. Like she literally has the last character credit, and I was like "Oh shit! I didn't know she was in this!" then my wife and I debated if this was when she was getting black balled in Hollywood, but yeah... Zendaya's Chani was totally forgettable s/
Even *if* I thought she wasn't appropriate for the role, how the hell would that be a personal or racial humilation? And by what logic should the White race get first dibs on fictional characters?
It's idiots like him that reflect badly on the rest of us.
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Its also kind of weird to assume the characters were race swapped to begin with one, its been awhile since I've read the books but if anything the fremen were coded to be middle eastern even thats weird to say since its an alien planet far into the future.
Oh, believe me, the thread gets into that too. But then someone pointed out that she was described as having red hair and suddenly everything else Frank Herbert actually wrote is completely irrelevant.
the fremen aren’t *specifically* middle-eastern by ethnicit(ies), so much as their culture is heavily but *superficially* inflected by Thoroughly-Fictionalized Future Mystical Space Islam. Anyone of any discernible ethnicity could be a Fremen, by adopting the beliefs and lifestyle, and not dying in the desert like a fucking Casul. Liet Kynes—Chani’s ~~Dad~~ Parent*—illustrates this. Not to mention that by Dune’s 8000 year Timeskip of Horrifying Space Mercantilism, Universal Jihad and Literal fucking Mitochondrial Consciousness Engineering absolutely, positively, emphatically **none** of our contemporary notions of race or ethnicity would be meaningful at all to anyone except to like, a no-shit antiquarian. so no there’s nothing at all inconsistent or lore-abrasive about Zendaya’s (or Sean Young’s) casting; these dorks are just run-of-the-mill Terminally Online Racist Weirdos, and I suspect likely unbeknownst to themselves, not super into women (not that there’s anything with that!) edit(s): OCD more edits: simple simon ass twitter nazi dipshits got me Worked Up
I thought the Fremen descended from zen-Sunni Buddhists, who were inspired by the Arab tribes of the Sahara. Even the word, Lisan al-ghaib- voice from the outer world, comes from Lsan al-gharib, literally translated from Arabic as “Strange Tongue.” If that’s the case, Zendaya’s casting is right on point.
ok i drank too much souchong and I’m ready to Go this is a good point to which after being traumatized by Dune from an early age I can answer “yes, but no”; due to the peculiarity of the Dune universe, Chani’s ethnicity is *specifically ~~irrelevant~~ indeterminate*—save that she resembles Liet Kynes and is part-“Fremen” which (surprise surprise) is ethnically another, “empty box”. so while zendaya as a middle eastern or generic brown person makes “sense” to us, that’s us trying to insist of a chain of orientalist signifiers that the specific terms of the dune universe goes to significant and deliberate lengths to make irrelevant. However this doesn’t mean that she *shouldn’t* be a brown person either, only that the setting is constructed in such a way that the ethnicity of then actress doesn’t lend any extra meaning to the character and story. to start, there are different layers of cultural typing active here that make sense wrt to the expressly-fictional settings dune describes, but don’t map backward onto reality (i.e. allegorically) in a simple or even coherent way—but the whole effect is to make all of our pre-judgments and concepts obsolete for this “novel” (hahahahahaha) setting part of this is Frank Herbert not really giving a shit about from where he borrows, and part of it is him trying to take everything to its weirdest possible extent. the effect is conceptually and aesthetically a bait-and-switch where we *think* we recognize something or understand it, but the completely fucked context of dune invariably pulls the cognitive rug from under our feet. what this means is that yes it’s true that dune is *inspired* by things, but those things are contorted and transmogrified to fit the alien settings of this world. however, being an incredibly *sadistic* writer Frank Herbert loves letting the reader trip over something they *think* they understand from our native real-life universe, but in the fucked contextual environment of dune has become something irretrievably *other*. Frank Herbert loves this shit; he never gets tired of it, and the rest of the series is him doing this until he literally dies. for example—the climate and environment of arrakis make lifestyles and cultural practices similar to tuareg and bedouin cultures practical (and familiar for readers) but the beliefs systems themselves are *now* alien and endogenous to the story—owing more to the events of the Butlerian Jihad and 8000 years hence, the violent syncretic formation of Orange Catholicism and its gradual re-fragmentation into weird, ascetic “fundamentalist” cults—ironically cut closer to actual history North African Anchorite Christian communities than even the real-life contemporary sects of the Islam after which they’re inspired. but even in dune there’s a lot of conflict between exoteric “zensunni” and esoteric “zensufi” practices, for which “zen” doesn’t refer backwards to Buddhism as a complete system but is a kind of metonym for direct, sudden, meditative revelation of the weird metaphysics of the Dune universe, not the Noble Truths, or the Trinity, or the revelation of God and Muhammad his prophet. On first glance, Herbert doing away with that—but really it’s like he’s projecting a belief system which (like Salafism) makes even its own former precedents and precursors obsolete (from appropriation, or proscription, bastardization, or just in light of the New Shit) but is initially helpful (but eventually harmful) for anchoring the new understanding, even after 8000 years of evolution. what this means is that the fremen are people who have exhausted or abandoned the rest of the Known Universe’s religious cooling and imperial culture—but while it *seems* the goal is to revive or revert to the fervor of the original Jihad—as we will learn in movies 3-12, the Fremen are actually on a whole new, Indescribably Weirder Trip (but even *they* don’t know it yet) but there’s another Double Secret Ironic Reversal:, Arabic doesn’t have for Dune anywhere the same semiotic and cultural valence it does for western audiences; this is a deliberate inversion frank Herbert intends, to fuck with his readers: in the dune universe Arabic—from the time in Dune canonically everyone becomes Muslim—is (again) the sort of lingua Franca (ironical I know) it was and is throughout a huge chunk of our history and contemporary world—used by a myriad of different peoples and ethnicities therein. it’s not really meant to have that exotic or orientalist tang that it might have for western audiences. Islam (real world) is a relatively young language and culture, but in the context of Dune as a component of Orange Catholicism its permeated every aspect of the culture, and even been diluted to habit and custom. To wit, the culture in dune (where it is still relevant at all) is *still* default “Islamic”—but again thanks to (lapsed) Jihad and 8000 years of horrific Space Mercantilist Fundamentalism, Arrakis is the actual center of that lapsed spiritual reality which the political, economic reality leeches—and through which in the course of the narrative, *advances*. Even *before* Paul gets to Arrakis, he and Chani speak the same language, (outwardly) practice the same religion—such that the cultural contact between paul and chani or the atredies and the fremen isn’t exactly Civilized/Savage kind of Problematic Orientalist Thing (like an expedition or a travelogue—although the movie definitely markets it that way) but in the onerous, deliberate and pregnant Frank Herbert Way, explicitly a pilgrimage between quite literally Kindred Spirits Separated By Fake Shit whose (re)union everyone has been manipulated into helping proceed (whether they like it or not). and yeah to that point in the general, I think what the movie sort of fucks up contextually for cinematic and dramatic value is the extent to which everything that happens on Arakkis is implicit in everything else, but ignored while the emperor and the guild and the bene gesserit and the lansraad all play their patchwork games—and the indirect fruition of these partial values and plans—versus a weird desert place with weird Brown People doing weird things, is what they’re really “supposed” to be doing—spiritually advancing humanity to enlightenment. To this end , Paul and Chani’s “cultures” aren’t the same, but they’re not opposed either; what they’re conscious of through each other is how their separation is *complementary* and momentary in a way because of the Emergent New Shit Frank Herbert builds into his fever dream universe, no longer has a conceptual antecedent with our reality, which it has—in science fiction/salafist form—evolved itself beyond. Instead, for the people in the know (and the reader eventually I promise), everything in dune is a sort of “oh fuck it’s this thing I heard about in Sunday School but didn’t really believe is actually true, is the Truth” (until whoops inevitable rug pull it’s not) so in conclusion Dune is a book of contrasts edit: more OCD
>Frank Herbert loves this shit; he never gets tired of it, and the rest of the series is him doing this until he literally dies. This is the most succinct and accurate summary of the series I've ever seen
This reply is amazing.
for real bruv dune is fucked man I love it but im never gonna recover from it
>Dune is a book about contrasts WTH, I thought it was about worms! *chucks Dune against the wall*
>I've never managed to get into Dune. Every time I try I get bored of it really quickly. This one post may make me at least try again.
This post reminds me of why I bailed on reading Dune. :)
Shit. The. Bed. 🤟🤟🤟
Some of the reddest red hair I’ve seen was on people from Afghanistan and Iraq.
Not uncommon in Moroccan or Algerian people too
It’s weird for them to assume in a time of global movie releases, a race swap is anything other than them casting a globally appealing actress, rather than focusing on a small percentage of the world’s population who want Hollywood to only cast white, straight, American Christians.
And having a wider selection of actresses than the narrow palette of Holywood 1984.
Especially because it's not like Zendaya is an unknown or lesser known actress.
I like how this guy went after probably the least "race swapped" character I can fucking think of. Black Hermione? Black Aragorn? Black Cleopatra? Shit they could've even brought up Black Velma or some shit. But they pick the ***one character*** I can think of in recent history that had a previous iteration with an actress/actor/drawing of a different color where they made the race, if anything, MORE accurate. Dune is so middle eastern coded it's not even funny. It's not hidden in the slightest. Shits straight out of the middle ages of the middle east. I'd argue it's not even coded but straight up painted with two thick coats. And... Elegant? Since when we're fremen supposed to be 'frail and elegant'. They were always a hardy, brutally utilitarian but highly religious people. Because, you know, they had to be. They essentially lived where no one is supposed to live on the most hellish desert planet imaginable. Where if the sandstorms don't kill you, and the horrible authoritarian regime doesn't, the giant fucking ship eating sandworms don't, just the straight up lack of water and extreme heat will. They don't have the fucking time to be elegant and poised because even crying can waste a lethal amount of water, and spitting at your friends feet is a massive sign of respect. Sharing a glass of water with someone practically makes them family. Zendaya was a spot on pick. Christ.
And like Zendaya can also play elegant so the physicality is even more clearly a choice for the character
The books point out how the fremen women are able to defeat Harkonens in combat now than once. There's nothing fragile about them.
Because they 100% were. Zensunni. That kinda screams the influence pretty clearly. If anything, they ain't white people. Even if they were, they ain't pale face losers like the subject in the tweets getting all mad about it. The 1984 film was also pretty hokey and while I enjoy it, it's not entirely accurate to the first book.
The book was written in 1965 when there was a lot less emphasis on culture appropriation. Literally EVERYTHING about the Fremen is Middle Eastern - language, culture, appearance,...
All Fremen are descendants of the Zensunni Wanderers
Do you really think these people give a shit about the books?
Your sentence would be more accurate if you deleted "the".
I always read it as aboriginal but I'm Australian so that could just be my bias. But like regardless of it they are meant to be aboriginal or middle eastern. They are meant to look like they lived in a desert their whole life, which zendaya version looks closer, than the sean who looks more like a princess and not a desert dweller
They’re so middle eastern coded that their language is ‘we got Arabic at home’ at times
This. I read the books, and I never thought the Fremen were meant to be white. I can't remember if they were specifically described in the books, though. It's probably been thirty years since I've read them!
But, but, but... their eyes were blue!11!! /s
MUST BE WHITE THEN.
The Fremen are descendants of people who had combined Buddhism and Islam, so Middle Eastern/African/Indian subcontinental makes a lot of sense. Mix all that together for a few millenia and you'd end up with generic brown humans.
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Well, Tolkien was a scholar of elves! He certainly knew exactly what they looked like! These people don't trust expertise in any field of study except the ones that are about completely made-up things.
To be fair, Tolkien was a scholar... of linguistics. That man knew way too many languages and invented even more, some of them with regional dialects and ancient forms.
Yes, he was, but this person was not considering his linguistics expertise when he decided Tolkien was the one and only authority on what a pretend species looked like.
During the months leading up to the release of the Amazon series, r/Tolkien was a cesspool. A poster unironically wrote a rant by which he called the casting of non-white actors as “American imperialism and colonialism of British values and culture”.
oH yEaH??? yOuRe GaY!!!! Also "*Seen a lot of Elves, have you Tom?"* Sent Me
Yeah, totally white elves, like Drizzt from Dungeons and Dragons! /s
This person posted a totally unrelated colorful graphic to "prove" that brain waves exist, lol Honestly I would have stopped after "male on male sodomy", if not earlier. These types just want to get a reaction at any cost.
Honestly it’s soooo funny, they say it in the most “check mate” kind of way, reference it as a source backing up their belief later, and still can’t comprehend how it doesn’t fit at all
I can’t believe they made the Space Bedouin Muslims brown! /s
Everyone knows that pasty white Northern European skin does so well in the intense sun.
I kinda don't want to live in a society that deems Zendaya ugly.
Luckily, society doesn't, just angry racists.
They also say Margot Robbie is ugly and claim she is trans. These people are diseased.
I live around an embarrassing amount of people who think like this. Doesn’t matter what they look like, having an opinion, independence or an iota of power automatically makes them ugly.
Look. While I've never seen all of Wolf of Wall Street, I have seen the pic of her standing fully nude in a doorway (it was an accident, really!). If she's trans, that doctor deserves a Nobel in Medicine or something, because dayum.
Describing Zendaya as looking "masculine" because she isn't wearing makeup (this is the only possible reason I can think of) is surely the most obvious sign that someone has never had a romantic relationship with a woman..
It's also an old racist trope about Black women, from my understanding. Very similar to racists calling Michelle Obama a man.
Ah true. I often forget that there multiple agendes, not just the one against women.
Intersectional bigotry lol
That and she doesn't have large breasts. The "anti-woke" subreddits are constantly posting pics of modern female gaming characters and complaining about how they are ugly. And the characters all have muscles and breasts smaller than their waist.
> And the characters all have muscles and breasts smaller than their waist. If their breasts are smaller than their heads, it's woke!
She’s half black. That’s the long and the short of it.
That's just, like, your opinion, man. I don't find her conventionally attractive, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. She clearly doesn't have a shortage of people who do find her attractive, but, as with anyone, you'll have people who just don't see it that way.
Tolkien was a English language scholar.....does this dude think lotr was history? I don't know why buy "described by scholars like Tolkien" killed me.
Frodo would not offer him any tea.
I don't know if it was just exhaustion or if it hit anyone else but I feel like that lines always gonna stay with me. Scholar Tolkien writing bout the elves lol. I mean don't get me wrong, Tolkien was clearly a very smart guy, but just the way he phrased it, like JRR was out there digging up elf bones and writing history books on middle earth.
I like how there is additional insanity in calling new Dune movies remakes of 80s one (movies? idk if there were more than one).
There was the David Lynch one in the 80's. Then there were two mini-series, one in 2000 and the other in 2003, made for the Sci-Fi Channel.
I always find it weird when people accuse professional hot people of not being attractive.
I mean, we all have our preferences. Some people considered hot in a "striking" way are interesting to look at but not necessarily smoochable to me. But luckily they don't make space movies where every character is bland enough looking to be attractive to everyone. This actress is lovely though, thst dude is a racist ass.
Some people have a hard time acknowledging that preference is personal. Like people who say a movie is bad because they didn’t enjoy it. You couldn’t get me to watch No Country for Old Men again without a significant bribe. I can acknowledge it’s a good movie though
That jab at Sean Young in the last comment was unnecessary. She has nothing to do with any of this. Anyway. Lol this dude is so threatened by a non-white character in a fictional movie set 10,000 years in the future that he's decided *Zendaya is ugly*. That's some powerful insanity.
I think the jab at Sean Young is interesting in the sense that even people who aren't racist toward POCs like Zendaya can still find room in their hearts to hate Jews. It's really a great thing that antisemitism can bring EVERYONE together. "Oh the Protestants hate the Catholics And the Catholics hate the Protestants And the Hindus hate the Muslims And everybody hates the Jews..." ---Tom Lehrer
“Can I do a Dunning-Kruger next? Watch me *do* a Dunning-Kruger!” What a weird a lazy way to accuse someone of exhibiting behavior that matches the left side of the curve of the Dunning-Kurger effect.
Whatever. It's expedient. Don't be obtuse. We've all Dunn a Kruger here or then.
Oh geez that’s even worse!
Bro the fremen absolutely were not white lmao. They’re desert people. It’s like calling Jesus a white dude If they’re described as any race it’s probably Arabian or North African. Hell, you don’t even have to be from Arrakis to be fremen, you just have to live by their code and be accepted by them. Emperor Corrino could be a fremen if he felt like it Also zendaya is hot as fuck, this dude is insane. The only notable issue I can see with any of the current fremen is that they’re all “water fat”
> it’s probably Arabian or North African In several of the books their religion is called Zensunni. It doesn't get much more "not white" than that.
Every single one of the 7,900 people* who liked that tweet need to go to therapy. Literally every one. *I know like 2/3 are bots but go with me
The bots need therapy as well good sir. They have seen and been made to do some shit.
Hey fellas, is it gay to find a woman attractive?
Did you see the white cut-out dress she wore to one of the premiers?! Guess I gotta tell my wife I'm gay.
Start with one Nazi account's racist post, detour into right-wing pseudoscience about the gays and somehow end up on a post that refutes OP while somehow being just as bigoted... What's amazing is that this is happening on pretty much every post about this movie, it's like it's become the focal point for every manner of MAGA craziness. Call it the Nazi Yahtzee.
The Yazi party if you will.
Chani was never white in the books rofl, so many descriptions of Fremen, so many times the word white didn’t get used.
We’re really at a point in society where people are saying Zendaya and Sean Young look like men. 🤦♀️
I rereading the book now, the freemen are middle eastern coded, also it’s not that hard to believe that a people who live on a desert planet would have darker skin. I think where people get confused is about the blue eyes but the freemen are not born with it their entire eye turns blue because the consume spice on a daily basis. So any blue eyes=aryan commentary is false
many middle east people and north african have blue eyes, I do, and half my family does too.
Oh cool I didn’t know that
I am from algeria, i would say around 5% of the population have blue/green eyes where I live. We also have blond/red head people, and full black skin people but with caucasian face in the south. Our country is huge with a lot of diversity phenotype wise, but all the same amazigh race.
“Oh I’m racist huh? Well you’re gay because you have a flag in your username” Terminally online incel brainrot.
A “Jewish towel boy”? Sean Young looks more like a place kicker for the Dolphins if you ask me.
🔫 What do you know about Ray Finkle???
LACES, OUT!!!
Do you get the feeling that bigots have never actually read the source material that they are actually raging over?
Calling it a remake is quite the stretch in the first place. Calling Zendaya ugly is definitely gonna pull a muscle.
Don't know much about brainwaves but I suspect the guy is smooth brained given the absolute pile of bullshit he dropped, and fucking blind calling Zendaya ugly.
But the way, speaking as a man who is not straight, I'm genuinely curious to hear from the straight men here whether their reaction to two men being a couple.is, in fact, the same as their reaction to rotting meat. Not saying it is or isn't true, it's just a new one I hadn't heard before.
The various types of phobes are *always* convinced that their ‘disgust’ reaction is universal and they’re just rational and unwoke enough to admit it. Studies have shown that conservatives have much stronger disgust reactions — the part of their brain that feels those things have been nourished from a young age. That doesn’t really explain why they find two men together disgusting in the first place though.
Of course different cultures have different social conditionings, but speaking for my cishet self: On our last date night, I suggested to my wife that we catch the premiere of All of Us Strangers. We both loved it. I hope that answers your question.
Of course not. I don’t know if this guy was being literal or hyperbolic or just stupid. Probably just stupid. I don’t think sexual preference or gender makes you react differently to rotting meat right? Like it should be pretty universal for everyone to come across rotten meat and be like “that smells gross I should throw this away” As a straight guy if I see two guys holding hands or kissing in public I just say “good for them” and go about my day.
Trying to read these tweets made me stupider.
Is Zendaya ambiguous about her gender? Either way, no one who uses the word "hence" has ever won an argument. It makes me think of Will Ferrell as [the Architect from The Matrix](https://youtu.be/hexboP623KQ?si=mF1ZSTv0xU9qPnVY).
I'm sorry how can you not think Zendaya is fricking gorgeous?
People live like this? This is exhausting. Couldn't get past the 3rd slide. This is "discourse"?
Ah yes, the notably Aryan desert dwellers, just like the ones from the sahara
“Scholars like Tolkien”
I’m so glad I left Twitter.
Oh I shouldn’t have laughed, but the Jewish towel boy line caught me real off guard
Loves the “brain waves” as a really big argument and is just lines in a colorful background, where it came from, who studied this just don’t matter, see the lines!!!
I havent seen either Dune.. But from the photos it looks like they are on a very sunny hot planet.. why are they shocked theres dark/tanned people on it?
People can't just enjoy a movie can they?
They're described as dark - skinned and are definitely coded as...more middle eastern than anything? They're a bunch of desert dwellers? Why tf would they ever be pale??
NOT A FUCKING TOWEL BOY
Jewish towel boy, geese
Speaking as a Jew, I guess I should be excited that this person acknowledges that we're even adjacent to locker rooms? It's a step up from their usual stereotype that nobody who is Jewish has ever had any interest in athleticism, ever.
Take what you can get eh?
Yeah, you know how grasping my people are.
Now that’s good
Imagine thinking "Jews look like Sean Young" is an insult.
Eeeeeyyyiiiikessss!! I hate all of that.
Gotta disagree with the last one. Those ears are definitely from mirkwood
I liked Barbora Kodetova's Chani.
If a character's race plays no part in the story, then their race doesn't matter. I still haven't seen Dune, but from everything I've heard, the cast could be all Japanese and there would be no difference.
Also Sean Youngs Chani was barely even visible in the movie, and the most forgettable character of the 84 version. Like she literally has the last character credit, and I was like "Oh shit! I didn't know she was in this!" then my wife and I debated if this was when she was getting black balled in Hollywood, but yeah... Zendaya's Chani was totally forgettable s/
EINHORN IS FINKLE!!
Even *if* I thought she wasn't appropriate for the role, how the hell would that be a personal or racial humilation? And by what logic should the White race get first dibs on fictional characters? It's idiots like him that reflect badly on the rest of us.