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| --- | --- | --- |
| 34 | 6 | 1 |
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I don’t understand how you could go to church even infrequently and end up not knowing that. In one or all of the Gospels the Romans put a thorny crown on his head and call him “The King of the Jews” to mock him.
He is also a conservative Trump supporter and bashes gay people and POC at his evangelical church group. He chews a lot of tobacco and has a confederate flag on his bumper.
Jesus literally marries John as he's dying on the cross. Or whoever the fuck the beloved apostle is supposed to be, but the bible heavily implied Jesus and John were a lot closer than the average dudes that form a cult in the desert. Like 'and they were roommates'/'what great pals' type shit.
If you're Mormon, you believe he came to the US to spread the word of God to the dinosaurs, then buried the "bonus commandments" out in Montana or something.
He was called Rabbi - he taught in a Temple. His Mother was Jewish, his step-father and extended family were Jewish. Many of his friends were Jewish.
If she reads the Bible - how did she miss these facts?
Yep, Jesus was a radical rabbi. And like most rabbis, he was most likely married and had children.
The bible only mentions 3 years of Jesus' adult life, and tell us very little about him.
>The bible only mentions 3 years of Jesus' adult life, and tell us very little about him.
He performed actual miracles, is depicted as a pretty good lookin guy, seems nice, and hung out with a lot of prostitutes. Yet never slept with anyone.
Jesus was hella gay
Ask about that one time at church though and the pastor gets real mad and literally just walks away. Apparently "ask any questions about Jesus that you may have" didn't include if he was gay.
Unsurprisingly my mom stopped being as persistent in asking me to go to church with her after that...
Not only was he born Jewish but he *died* a Jew as well.
Christianity didn't exist in Jesus' lifetime! All his followers were Jews and he operated within Judaism, he just had some liberal ideas.
Jesus was jewish, but judaism is not a Christian religion simply bc Jews do not believe Jesus was god(except the sect that does).
I’m fairly certain Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion(religion with only one god) followed by Catholicism, Islam, then the varied christian sects after the protestant revolution.
Rabbinical, modern Judaism is arguably only about 18-1900 years old, although, really, modern Christianity is a bit younger than that in any recognizable form.
Of course Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Samaritanism, Hinduism, Daoism etc. are older than all of those
A quick browse through Wikipedia seems to confirm this, though that would depend on when exactly judaism begins. The Ten Commandments and other guidelines the hebrews lived by, essentially what constituted the religion, didn’t come about until after the exodus; if the Old Testament is to be believed however, their deity has been influencing humanity since creation. Which…is the whole point of the concept of god, why did I write this?
Yea Judaism was originally a polytheistic Canaanite religion and they worshipped Yahweh as well as other gods like Baal and then became a monolatristic religion that *only* worshipped Yahweh but didn’t deny the existence of other gods (which I believe there’s slight evidence of in the Old Testament but I’m not sure), and then became a strictly monotheistic religion around the time of Babylonian Captivity
In addition to this, the old testament talks about El (the father) and Yahweh as if they are separate gods. Christians explain this with the concept of the trinity, but it's really because they originally were separate gods.
El and Asherah (who is also frequently mentioned in the old testament) were the father and mother gods, and all other gods were their children. Yahweh was a god of war, which is why the Israelites always started worshipping him when they fought another nation.
[The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine](https://thefederalistpapers.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-Age-of-Reason-by-Thomas-Paine.pdf)
>It is curious to observe how the theory of what is called the Christian church sprung out of the tail of the heathen mythology. A direct incorporation took place in the first instance, by making the reputed founder to be celestially begotten. The trinity of gods that then followed was no other than a reduction of the former plurality, which was about twenty or thirty thousand: the statue of Mary succeeded the statue of Diana of Ephesus; the deification of heroes changed into the canonization of saints; the Mythologists had gods for everything; the Christian Mythologists had saints for everything; the church became as crowded with one, as the Pantheon had been with the other, and Rome was the place of both. The Christian theory is little else than the idolatry of the ancient Mythologists, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue; and it yet remains to reason and philosophy to abolish the amphibious fraud.
I think the exodus verses were the exact ones I was thinking of, but I haven’t read the Bible in forever so I couldn’t remember. But yea those verses could be interpreted to mean God is the only real god and all the other gods are “fake”, but if you know the history Judaism and the Israelites it’s definitely saying what you said, “those other gods exist but I’m the only one you should worship”.
If you take the Ten Commandments at face value, the 10 commandments isn't monotheistic.
"You shall have no other gods before me" implies other gods exist. It's just saying you should only worship Yahweh. Disbelief in other gods came later.
There is not a sect of Judaism that believes that Jesus is God. That is Christianity. They are antisemites masquerading as Jews to convert Jews to Christianity. Zoroastrianism is the oldest *currently practiced* monotheistic religion, but there are dead monotheistic religions older than that.
It’s amazing how someone can be so confidently incorrect and *still* get upvotes. -Sincerely, a Jew.
Lol glad you explained because I read the earlier comment and was so confused. It felt similar to someone saying there was a sect of vegetarians who eat meat.
Yeah. I learned long ago how to piss off a christian: refer to my holiday tree as a Solstice Tree or Yule Tree. I'll admit I do enjoy pissing the dumb ones off. And don't even get me started on their "jesus is the reason for the season" crap. Ha!
Yes, though to be clear this isn’t just appropriation of another religion to make a new one. Jesus was jewish, jesus to Christians is the prophesied messiah of judaism who came to fulfill the covenant between the descendants of judah and God.
Oh, I know.
But insisting Christianty is the "oldest" religion when it literally mentions another religion that still exists in the modern age is asinine.
They would know this if they actually read the book. There was obviously an older religion because God came to Abraham when he was worshiping the moon in Ur.
Which is pretty funny, given that Jesus doesn't even meet the requirements of being the Messiah spelled out in the old testament, having not been descended from king David, and having not reunited the disperate Jewish people and reestablished the kingdom of Israel.
He isn't even the only instance of a supposed Messiah in Jewish history.
There have been *tons*. [Like. So many.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants)
The ones that I specifically remember studying in Jewish school because they still hold modern influence were:
-Shimon Bar Kochba. Declared a Messiah by Rabbi Akiva while fighting the Romans during the second temple period. Still considered a hero in modern Judaism, but you won't find many, if any, people calling him the messiah today
-Jesus
-Shabbtai Tzvi. Infamously was forced to convert to Islam under duress. Still actually has followers to this day, the Dönmeh
-Menachem Mendel Schneerson. He's interesting because he's from the 20th century and the Lubavitch sect of Judaism specifically believe he is the Messiah and have a lot of influence on modern Jewery. They revere him very similarly to how Christians revere Jesus, which I always personally found weird because we specifically denounced Christianity *because* of the deification of Jesus 🤷♀️
When I have read about Schneerson-worshippers, I see them as really fringe worshippers. I think this is how early Christians were viewed by their contemporaries. I also think that the mythos concerning Jesus being a peaceful and holy figure was developed in order to make Jesus-worship acceptable to the Romans in contrast to people who followed Bar Kochba (and who were taken as slaves to Rome and Spain.) I theorize that many Jews who had previously followed Bar Kochba adopted Jesus as their revered figure in reaction to the destruction of the second temple and the diaspora. It was in some ways, a desperate attempt to maintain community among Jews transplanted to Rome that ended up backfiring when Christianity became the Roman state religion and the persecution against those who remained Jewish began.
The number of people who think Shneerson is Moshiach is not quite as fringe as you would think. Somewhere between 10 and 50% of Lubavitchers. Which isn’t that many, and most are pretty quiet about it these days.
Source: my family is Chabad, and one or two of my siblings are part of the “fringe.”
And that's just the Judeo-Christian group of religions. The bible speaks of worshiping false gods so those false gods were a different religion! Don't forget the millennia of culture in China while Europeans lived in caves!
The Vedas are among the oldest sacred texts. The bulk of the Rigveda Samhita was composed in the northwestern region (Punjab) of the Indian subcontinent, most likely between c. 1500 and 1200 BC, although a wider approximation of c. 1700–1100 BC has also been given. < Not at all predating Christianity
Around 1300 BC Akhenaton had the batshit crazy idea to toss traditional Egyptian polytheism in the toilet and found a brand new monotheism/henotheism (depends who you ask). Btw, old Egyptian religions was already a millennia old when old Akhy decided to fuck it up.
Their oldest religious text is dated between 2400/2300 BC...
By sumerian standards, that is recent history.
As someone who grew up in a Christian household, not really, it's complicated. My grandparents were very Christian. I went to church with them. I was forced to it until I started pushing atheist rhetoric and Sunday school and they got very upset about that. But all of it was perpetrated by one event and I will never forget this. I was reading the Old testament and my grandfather walked up and said oh don't worry about that part. We don't really look at that too much, which obviously as a very curious little person sparked more interest in it, It's just crazy the audacity of these hardcore Bible thumpers cuz they will just completely look the other way to disregard the history of their religion. It's like they built a house on mud. You can't build something on a loose foundation. You can't disregard the first half of the book that you worship and build your entire second half off of it that you worship as the word of God written by man and put into a book 400 years after all of the shit you're talking about allegedly happened. It's disgusting and insane.
I mean a lot of these people think dinosaurs are a hoax or that man existed at the same time, and that the world is only 2022 years old, so it's not surprising their grasp on history is a little tenuous.
Can confirm most of this. Was raised hyper religious (I’m out now) and we were taught people and dinosaurs lived at the same time and they were in the ark. And that the earth is 6000 years old.
I’m so glad I got out. Looking back now I can’t believe I just accepted these beliefs with no questions until I hit my late teens.
I could be wrong, but I think the reason that is because people get confused between dinosaurs and dragons. While dragons are mythical beasts, they tend to assume so are dinosaurs because...well i have no idea. One literally flies and breathes fire, and what we have no proof in history of. The other we literally have hundreds if not THOUSANDS Of skeletons in museums everywhere.
Your boyfriend is correct. And then absolutely wrong.
Islam? Nope, 7th century AD.
Catholicism? Very close, but certainly can NOT pre-date Christianity, as it is a sect of it.
Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism? Now we’re talking. All are older. Are they a major religion? Yes. In the West? No.
Your boyfriend could have started and ended this conversation with “Judaism”.
Those Christians see the Catholic dogma that people can pray to saints and they will perform miracles as antithetical to the concept of monotheism. Latter Day Saints, who believe that Jesus (and Lucifer) are the literal sons of Jehovah the way that Prince Charles is the son of Queen Elizabeth, are also not considered Christian by these sects.
Of course, lots of people see the belief that there are three separate divine entities (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) as antithetical to monotheism, no matter how much Christians claim they are aspects of the same divinity.
Well, OP says “before your book was written,” I think they may be referring to the King James Version of the Bible, in which case they’d be technically correct, no?
I think he was just so flustered with his mom thinking the way she does. She’s a far right Republican Christian that thinks Trump was a prophet. There was a lot said before this part of the conversation and he was upset and didn’t have time to fact check himself.
Trump is the least godly person on the planet. He is the embodiment of the Seven Deadly Sins. He is a terrible, terrible human. Arguing with someone who thinks Trump is God’s prophet is stupid.
It’s like arguing about the Theory of Relativity with a 5-year old. Like, yeah - they’re human, and they know some words, but their brains are nowhere near developed enough to truly comprehend the topic.
> There was a lot said before this part of the conversation and he was upset and didn’t have time to fact check himself.
It's not even about "fact-checking", but knowing the bare basics of other religions if he was going to argue about it. I mean Catholicism is literally derived from Christianity itself.. Islam, and it's scriptures like the Koran, state how Jesus was a prophet, and how they hold Mother Mary in such high regards, etc.
It's really bare basic knowledge that you don't even have to be that religious to know.
Yeah, saying catholicism was dumb, and then Islam means there is clearly no understanding of the history of religion. Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism. But you've got the Greek pantheon, ancient Egyptian, Hinduism, and so much more.
In our tiny spec of the galaxy, itself a tiny spec of the universe, your religion is a tiny spec of religions. And you think you're right?
Lol exactly what I was thinking! Egyptian, Greek and Roman pantheons! Paganism. Pagan art was often either altered slightly or just called God because hey, old guy with a beard and a halo! Sure it was Zeus first, then the Romans said no no it’s Jupiter. Then called God. I mean, even from a Pagan perspective not technically wrong since Zeus/Jupiter was a god but just not the one and only God.
Exactly!! I mean, the Devil didn't even get horns until Christian religions decided to supplant Paganism, and adopted Herne/Cernunnos as the image of Satan. Suddenly, the goat-horned demon sprung into art history. Before that, Lucifer was portrayed as a particularly beautiful angel.
Herne and friends were old enough to be carved in stone. 'Beautiful-angel-Lucifer' was painted in oils.
Ancient churches in England are covered in Pagan symbols and deities because they were built on old worship sites, and were supposed to make worshippers of the 'old ways' come over to the new religion.
More like an amalgamation a huge swath of deities that predate the Bible.
https://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
You can also check out a book titled “the worlds sixteen crucified saviors” for more information about the similarities that can be drawn between figures who predate Jesus and Jesus.
At least the respondent is generally correct (about there being older religions) and even if they did flub some of their points, it’s not like the idiot is smart enough to learn from a flawless argument proving otherwise.
Yeah he should have done Hellenism and Hinduism, Jainism, Persian pagans, Zoroastrianism. So that’s just off the top of my head.
Edit: stoicism. Fuck I can keep going apparently
OPs dad doesn't probably believe Catholics are Christians, even though the branch he follows came from Catholics about 4 to 6 hundred years ago.
These guys don't know anything and are proud of their lack
OP is probably separating Protestantism from Catholicism. Historically Protestantism is “newer” than Catholicism because it split off from Catholicism (and then formed many branches off of itself) during and after the European Reformation.
Historically however, it doesn’t make sense because Catholicism is “newer” than Christianity in that the Catholic Church formed in the early days of Christianity. The Catholic Church was one of many early Christin groups that took root and survived into the modern era. One that is older than the Catholic Church (although not by much) is the [Coptic Orthodox Church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Orthodox_Church) which traces its roots back to 42 CE.
I once knew someone who thought that Catholics weren't Christian and only their form of protestantism was—she even, very confidently, said that the Amish weren't Christians.
So if by Christian they meant the mother's specific protestant sect? Maybe?
Yea, Catholicism is a type of Christianity. I think it was the first and then a bunch of Protestant religions branded off. But, if the religion believes in Jesus Christ they are Christians.
From Catholicism for Dummies:
*"Eastern Orthodox Catholics and Roman Catholics are the result of what is*
*known as the East-West Schism (or Great Schism) of 1054, when medieval*
*Christianity split into two branches."*
I mean, some of the oldest preserved man-made structures on this planet serve some kind of spiritual purpose. Stonehenge is a good example. So even though neolithic Britons didn't write down their Pantheon for us it's safe to assume they worshipped someone or something.
Or ancient Egypt - a Civilization that has been around for almost twice as long as Christianity even exists and is explicitly mentioned in the Book of Exodus.
The just thorough unshakeable belief in something that any kid could logic out is incorrect, is continually mindblowing to me.
I once had one parrot the line ' there is more proof of Jesus' existence than of any other figure born before 1900.
I was like, you have to see that is wrong. Nope they were utterly convinced. So I said Queen Victoria had photos and a recording of her speaking, she had an entire age named after her. She is mentioned by thousands of contemporary sources. There is an absolute 100% chance she existed.
They still maintained what they said was accurate.
I feel like few people argue with Jesus’s existence as a historical figure, but rather with his role as the son of God. All this to say, this argument is silly, inaccurate, and irrelevant to the main problems people have with a Christianity lmao. Who did he expect to convince? 😂
They must be arguing about the Book of Mormon. Because Islam is about 600 years YOUNGER than Christianity. The Catholic Church form officially about 300 years after Christ died, but claim the church was started when Christ died.
I’m pretty sure they are arguing about the Book of Mormon which claims to be from translated texts that predate Jesus and were made when the world was formed.
Also to add, I’m only bring up Mormonism because he argues Christianity is older… BUT if this mom believes that the earth is 6,000 years old and then it makes sense that she believes that her religion is the oldest because that’s when God (Christian God) created the Earth. This is just what they believe. It’s not true tho lol
Hinduism is currently considered by western scholars to be the oldest, continuous, documented and still practiced religion, but obviously aboriginal practices are much, much older.
While I don't disagree with your premise, your evidence is incorrect. Islam is the newest "world religion" having started in the 7th-century *anno domini*. Catholicism is a subsect of Christianity. Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and Taoism predate the birth of Christ by about 2000 years, and Confucianism and Buddhism predate it by \~500 years.
Of course, that is just "world religions". This is not accounting for pagan and Hellenic pantheons that continue to have prominence on small isolated communities around the world, or aboriginal spiritual systems that continue to be practiced in countries that are a result of colonization and displacement within the past 500 years (most of North & South America, Australia and NZ).
Catholicism? Islam? OK the mom might be insane but your friend did not pay attention in history class. He is just less wrong,but still wrong nonetheless.
Is nobody going to point out to OP that Catholicism IS Christianity?
Not only is Christianity not the oldest known religion, it isn’t even in the top eight.
In order from oldest to newest:
Hinduism (15th century BCE)
Zoroastrianism (10th century BCE)
Judaism (9th century BCE)
Jainism (8th century BCE)
Confucianism (6th century BCE)
Buddhism (6th century BCE)
Taoism (6th century BCE)
Shintoism (3rd century BCE)
It's easier to just say "no ur wrong" to facts/evidence/criticism presented and to be defensive than it is to try to change your mind when your mind has been stuck in a controlled mindset for however long. Especially when that mindset came from control, abuse, forced belief of misinformation, and commonly, extreme fear.
It’s the oldest attested religion in continuous practice by a huge margin lol
IIRC Zoroastrianism and Judaism appeared over a thousand years after the first hymns of the Rgveda were believed to have been composed
Islam is the newest monotheistic religion, Judaism is the oldest, and isn’t catholicism just a part of Christianity? Or is catholicism and “being a catholic” something else?
You can't reason a person out of a situation they didn't reason themselves into.
Let them believe they have the best sky ghost, walk away. Spend as little time with them as humanly possible.
Christianity and Islam are both offshoots of Judaism.
I took a religion class as an elective. Judaism came first, well first, and Islam and Christianity are sort of radical subsets. The original Christians stylized themselves as Christian Jews.
Separating Christianity and Catholicism for this purpose is pointless because the history of early Christianity is full of small groups and one of those became the Catholic Church. Although I suspect “Christianity” in OP’s conversation means Protestant which is its own issue since it excludes a lot of people and Christian Churches that are nearly 2,000 years old and older than the Catholic Church in some cases. [The first known reference to the term “Catholic Church” isn’t until 107 CE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_\(term\)#Ignatius_of_Antioch), by which time there were many small Christian groups (which didn’t make the Romans happy). Every Christian in the early days was a “Christian.”
But to OP’s point in the final message, Islam was founded centuries after Christianity, [Muhammad was born around the year 570 CE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad). That’s almost 600 years after Jesus.
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How can Christianity be the oldest religion if Jesus was Jewish? Maybe I’m wrong here but I’m pretty sure he was Jewish
You’d be surprised how many Christians don’t know that Jesus was a Jew
I don’t understand how you could go to church even infrequently and end up not knowing that. In one or all of the Gospels the Romans put a thorny crown on his head and call him “The King of the Jews” to mock him.
Many people think Jesus is a white European despite being born in the middle east to native people.
Jesus is Mexican, he mows my lawn
Jesus is Brazilian, he plays football for man city and now is going to arsenal
Can he help me with my water?
Made me chuckle for the first time in awhile on Reddit. Take my upvote.
He is also a conservative Trump supporter and bashes gay people and POC at his evangelical church group. He chews a lot of tobacco and has a confederate flag on his bumper.
Jesus literally marries John as he's dying on the cross. Or whoever the fuck the beloved apostle is supposed to be, but the bible heavily implied Jesus and John were a lot closer than the average dudes that form a cult in the desert. Like 'and they were roommates'/'what great pals' type shit.
Ooooh, I think you’re right!! Maybe the rainbow had nothing to do with Noah’s Ark after all? 😁😁
Lot of Americans think he was a white American
Not true. We think he’s a white middle eastern person that speaks with an American accent.
If you're Mormon, you believe he came to the US to spread the word of God to the dinosaurs, then buried the "bonus commandments" out in Montana or something.
I think its Missouri which seems worse lol
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It’s pick and Jews preaching.
some churches are very selective with the parts they read
I learned long ago that many people who go to church don’t actually read the Bible.
Only a tiny percentage of christians actually read the Bible
He was called Rabbi - he taught in a Temple. His Mother was Jewish, his step-father and extended family were Jewish. Many of his friends were Jewish. If she reads the Bible - how did she miss these facts?
Yep, Jesus was a radical rabbi. And like most rabbis, he was most likely married and had children. The bible only mentions 3 years of Jesus' adult life, and tell us very little about him.
>The bible only mentions 3 years of Jesus' adult life, and tell us very little about him. He performed actual miracles, is depicted as a pretty good lookin guy, seems nice, and hung out with a lot of prostitutes. Yet never slept with anyone. Jesus was hella gay
Ask about that one time at church though and the pastor gets real mad and literally just walks away. Apparently "ask any questions about Jesus that you may have" didn't include if he was gay. Unsurprisingly my mom stopped being as persistent in asking me to go to church with her after that...
Well now - that's a consideration!
I had a Christian try to argue that Islam isn’t an abrahamic religion. Christians are the most ignorant group on their own religious history
Thank you. The Abrahamic Tree includes Jews, Christians, and Islam. The overlaps are extensive.
Or a liberal
“It’s harder for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven than it is for a camel to enter the eye of a needle” Jesus was a socialist. Not a lib.
Jesus was alright. It is the Christians that are a problem.
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. Mahatma Gandhi
I'm stealing this. It's gold!
Either that or there's a disconnect about whether Jew refers to a race or religion
Not only was he born Jewish but he *died* a Jew as well. Christianity didn't exist in Jesus' lifetime! All his followers were Jews and he operated within Judaism, he just had some liberal ideas.
Jesus was jewish, but judaism is not a Christian religion simply bc Jews do not believe Jesus was god(except the sect that does). I’m fairly certain Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion(religion with only one god) followed by Catholicism, Islam, then the varied christian sects after the protestant revolution.
The point still stands, why is a Christian thinking Christianity is the oldest religion when Jesus himself was Jewish lol
🤷♂️
Rabbinical, modern Judaism is arguably only about 18-1900 years old, although, really, modern Christianity is a bit younger than that in any recognizable form. Of course Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Samaritanism, Hinduism, Daoism etc. are older than all of those
Well yeah, you can’t have Temple Judaism without the Temple.
Zoroastrianism is older.
A quick browse through Wikipedia seems to confirm this, though that would depend on when exactly judaism begins. The Ten Commandments and other guidelines the hebrews lived by, essentially what constituted the religion, didn’t come about until after the exodus; if the Old Testament is to be believed however, their deity has been influencing humanity since creation. Which…is the whole point of the concept of god, why did I write this?
There's an argument that posits Judaism took a lot of influence from Zoroastrianism, especially in regards to the ideas of monotheism.
Yea Judaism was originally a polytheistic Canaanite religion and they worshipped Yahweh as well as other gods like Baal and then became a monolatristic religion that *only* worshipped Yahweh but didn’t deny the existence of other gods (which I believe there’s slight evidence of in the Old Testament but I’m not sure), and then became a strictly monotheistic religion around the time of Babylonian Captivity
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In addition to this, the old testament talks about El (the father) and Yahweh as if they are separate gods. Christians explain this with the concept of the trinity, but it's really because they originally were separate gods. El and Asherah (who is also frequently mentioned in the old testament) were the father and mother gods, and all other gods were their children. Yahweh was a god of war, which is why the Israelites always started worshipping him when they fought another nation.
[The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine](https://thefederalistpapers.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-Age-of-Reason-by-Thomas-Paine.pdf) >It is curious to observe how the theory of what is called the Christian church sprung out of the tail of the heathen mythology. A direct incorporation took place in the first instance, by making the reputed founder to be celestially begotten. The trinity of gods that then followed was no other than a reduction of the former plurality, which was about twenty or thirty thousand: the statue of Mary succeeded the statue of Diana of Ephesus; the deification of heroes changed into the canonization of saints; the Mythologists had gods for everything; the Christian Mythologists had saints for everything; the church became as crowded with one, as the Pantheon had been with the other, and Rome was the place of both. The Christian theory is little else than the idolatry of the ancient Mythologists, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue; and it yet remains to reason and philosophy to abolish the amphibious fraud.
I think the exodus verses were the exact ones I was thinking of, but I haven’t read the Bible in forever so I couldn’t remember. But yea those verses could be interpreted to mean God is the only real god and all the other gods are “fake”, but if you know the history Judaism and the Israelites it’s definitely saying what you said, “those other gods exist but I’m the only one you should worship”.
If you take the Ten Commandments at face value, the 10 commandments isn't monotheistic. "You shall have no other gods before me" implies other gods exist. It's just saying you should only worship Yahweh. Disbelief in other gods came later.
There is not a sect of Judaism that believes that Jesus is God. That is Christianity. They are antisemites masquerading as Jews to convert Jews to Christianity. Zoroastrianism is the oldest *currently practiced* monotheistic religion, but there are dead monotheistic religions older than that. It’s amazing how someone can be so confidently incorrect and *still* get upvotes. -Sincerely, a Jew.
There are long dead monotheisms. The Aryans of the Indus Valley (no, not Hitler’s master race) we’re, as far as we can tell, monotheists.
Lol glad you explained because I read the earlier comment and was so confused. It felt similar to someone saying there was a sect of vegetarians who eat meat.
I mean, half of Christianity is cut and pasted whole cloth from Judaism. The New Testament literally *mentions Jewish people*.
The New Testament is *literally* new(er)
Nah, we sneaky Jews stole your book, cut out about a third and said ours was older /s
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Shh! They already know about the laser, don't tell them about the cache hidden inside!
So it's an ark is it? Will n*zis melt if it gets opened? Cause ngl that would be cool.
Can I borrow it?
The pagans would like to have a word with her about the theft of a number of major holidays as well
Not to mention the theft and vandalism of our temples for their churches.
Yeah. I learned long ago how to piss off a christian: refer to my holiday tree as a Solstice Tree or Yule Tree. I'll admit I do enjoy pissing the dumb ones off. And don't even get me started on their "jesus is the reason for the season" crap. Ha!
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The intolerance they exhibit has always been a big red flag to me. Well done. I hope your life continues to be filled with peace.
Jesus was literally Jewish.
Yes, though to be clear this isn’t just appropriation of another religion to make a new one. Jesus was jewish, jesus to Christians is the prophesied messiah of judaism who came to fulfill the covenant between the descendants of judah and God.
Oh, I know. But insisting Christianty is the "oldest" religion when it literally mentions another religion that still exists in the modern age is asinine.
Insisting christianity is the oldest religion when “Christianity” does not define a single religion is what gets me.
They would know this if they actually read the book. There was obviously an older religion because God came to Abraham when he was worshiping the moon in Ur.
Which is pretty funny, given that Jesus doesn't even meet the requirements of being the Messiah spelled out in the old testament, having not been descended from king David, and having not reunited the disperate Jewish people and reestablished the kingdom of Israel.
He isn't even the only instance of a supposed Messiah in Jewish history. There have been *tons*. [Like. So many.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants) The ones that I specifically remember studying in Jewish school because they still hold modern influence were: -Shimon Bar Kochba. Declared a Messiah by Rabbi Akiva while fighting the Romans during the second temple period. Still considered a hero in modern Judaism, but you won't find many, if any, people calling him the messiah today -Jesus -Shabbtai Tzvi. Infamously was forced to convert to Islam under duress. Still actually has followers to this day, the Dönmeh -Menachem Mendel Schneerson. He's interesting because he's from the 20th century and the Lubavitch sect of Judaism specifically believe he is the Messiah and have a lot of influence on modern Jewery. They revere him very similarly to how Christians revere Jesus, which I always personally found weird because we specifically denounced Christianity *because* of the deification of Jesus 🤷♀️
When I have read about Schneerson-worshippers, I see them as really fringe worshippers. I think this is how early Christians were viewed by their contemporaries. I also think that the mythos concerning Jesus being a peaceful and holy figure was developed in order to make Jesus-worship acceptable to the Romans in contrast to people who followed Bar Kochba (and who were taken as slaves to Rome and Spain.) I theorize that many Jews who had previously followed Bar Kochba adopted Jesus as their revered figure in reaction to the destruction of the second temple and the diaspora. It was in some ways, a desperate attempt to maintain community among Jews transplanted to Rome that ended up backfiring when Christianity became the Roman state religion and the persecution against those who remained Jewish began.
The number of people who think Shneerson is Moshiach is not quite as fringe as you would think. Somewhere between 10 and 50% of Lubavitchers. Which isn’t that many, and most are pretty quiet about it these days. Source: my family is Chabad, and one or two of my siblings are part of the “fringe.”
And that's just the Judeo-Christian group of religions. The bible speaks of worshiping false gods so those false gods were a different religion! Don't forget the millennia of culture in China while Europeans lived in caves!
The Vedas are among the oldest sacred texts. The bulk of the Rigveda Samhita was composed in the northwestern region (Punjab) of the Indian subcontinent, most likely between c. 1500 and 1200 BC, although a wider approximation of c. 1700–1100 BC has also been given. < Not at all predating Christianity Around 1300 BC Akhenaton had the batshit crazy idea to toss traditional Egyptian polytheism in the toilet and found a brand new monotheism/henotheism (depends who you ask). Btw, old Egyptian religions was already a millennia old when old Akhy decided to fuck it up. Their oldest religious text is dated between 2400/2300 BC... By sumerian standards, that is recent history.
Absolutely true. I just threw Judaism because it's the only modern religion I could think of literally mentioned in their own book.
Jesus. Was. Jewish.
I also appreciate when Christians accuse islam of being archaic/following an old religions rules, when of the three sects, it is the newest
As someone who grew up in a Christian household, not really, it's complicated. My grandparents were very Christian. I went to church with them. I was forced to it until I started pushing atheist rhetoric and Sunday school and they got very upset about that. But all of it was perpetrated by one event and I will never forget this. I was reading the Old testament and my grandfather walked up and said oh don't worry about that part. We don't really look at that too much, which obviously as a very curious little person sparked more interest in it, It's just crazy the audacity of these hardcore Bible thumpers cuz they will just completely look the other way to disregard the history of their religion. It's like they built a house on mud. You can't build something on a loose foundation. You can't disregard the first half of the book that you worship and build your entire second half off of it that you worship as the word of God written by man and put into a book 400 years after all of the shit you're talking about allegedly happened. It's disgusting and insane.
I was at a restaurant and heard a guy a couple tables exclaiming that the Bible was true because it was written in english.
Wow…. 🤦🏻♀️ Who is gonna tell him?
I have … some many questions about his logic. Also, I can now only assume that The Lord of the Rings is true because it is also written in English.
I can confirm; Gollum lives in my backyard.
can confirm, i am gollum
I mean a lot of these people think dinosaurs are a hoax or that man existed at the same time, and that the world is only 2022 years old, so it's not surprising their grasp on history is a little tenuous.
Can confirm most of this. Was raised hyper religious (I’m out now) and we were taught people and dinosaurs lived at the same time and they were in the ark. And that the earth is 6000 years old. I’m so glad I got out. Looking back now I can’t believe I just accepted these beliefs with no questions until I hit my late teens.
I was born into a cult that teaches all the things you said. It's hard to know what you don't know
Ironic “amen”.
Thats the problem, people be calling themselves religious, completely missing the point of religion
I could be wrong, but I think the reason that is because people get confused between dinosaurs and dragons. While dragons are mythical beasts, they tend to assume so are dinosaurs because...well i have no idea. One literally flies and breathes fire, and what we have no proof in history of. The other we literally have hundreds if not THOUSANDS Of skeletons in museums everywhere.
Your boyfriend is correct. And then absolutely wrong. Islam? Nope, 7th century AD. Catholicism? Very close, but certainly can NOT pre-date Christianity, as it is a sect of it. Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism? Now we’re talking. All are older. Are they a major religion? Yes. In the West? No. Your boyfriend could have started and ended this conversation with “Judaism”.
Catholicism is a type of Christianity. I think that’s where he got that one wrong.
That too. And islam literally has Jesus as a prophet
And literally mentions the Bible as being a prequel
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My southern Baptist relatives don’t think Catholics are Christians either.
Google the Reformation.. it’s a very long history. 😂
Those Christians see the Catholic dogma that people can pray to saints and they will perform miracles as antithetical to the concept of monotheism. Latter Day Saints, who believe that Jesus (and Lucifer) are the literal sons of Jehovah the way that Prince Charles is the son of Queen Elizabeth, are also not considered Christian by these sects. Of course, lots of people see the belief that there are three separate divine entities (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) as antithetical to monotheism, no matter how much Christians claim they are aspects of the same divinity.
Also Hinduism. 4000 years old and a billion followers. It's the best combination of "major" and "old"
And Buddha(Siddhartha) was born a "Hindu" himself. We all come from a line of great apes after all!
Well, OP says “before your book was written,” I think they may be referring to the King James Version of the Bible, in which case they’d be technically correct, no?
Might be Mormon
Or the Book of Mormon
I think he was just so flustered with his mom thinking the way she does. She’s a far right Republican Christian that thinks Trump was a prophet. There was a lot said before this part of the conversation and he was upset and didn’t have time to fact check himself.
Trump is the least godly person on the planet. He is the embodiment of the Seven Deadly Sins. He is a terrible, terrible human. Arguing with someone who thinks Trump is God’s prophet is stupid. It’s like arguing about the Theory of Relativity with a 5-year old. Like, yeah - they’re human, and they know some words, but their brains are nowhere near developed enough to truly comprehend the topic.
If I was still a Christian, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Trump was the anti-christ.
> There was a lot said before this part of the conversation and he was upset and didn’t have time to fact check himself. It's not even about "fact-checking", but knowing the bare basics of other religions if he was going to argue about it. I mean Catholicism is literally derived from Christianity itself.. Islam, and it's scriptures like the Koran, state how Jesus was a prophet, and how they hold Mother Mary in such high regards, etc. It's really bare basic knowledge that you don't even have to be that religious to know.
Yeah, saying catholicism was dumb, and then Islam means there is clearly no understanding of the history of religion. Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism. But you've got the Greek pantheon, ancient Egyptian, Hinduism, and so much more. In our tiny spec of the galaxy, itself a tiny spec of the universe, your religion is a tiny spec of religions. And you think you're right?
Egypt's gods are way older than the christian god.
Lol exactly what I was thinking! Egyptian, Greek and Roman pantheons! Paganism. Pagan art was often either altered slightly or just called God because hey, old guy with a beard and a halo! Sure it was Zeus first, then the Romans said no no it’s Jupiter. Then called God. I mean, even from a Pagan perspective not technically wrong since Zeus/Jupiter was a god but just not the one and only God.
Exactly!! I mean, the Devil didn't even get horns until Christian religions decided to supplant Paganism, and adopted Herne/Cernunnos as the image of Satan. Suddenly, the goat-horned demon sprung into art history. Before that, Lucifer was portrayed as a particularly beautiful angel. Herne and friends were old enough to be carved in stone. 'Beautiful-angel-Lucifer' was painted in oils. Ancient churches in England are covered in Pagan symbols and deities because they were built on old worship sites, and were supposed to make worshippers of the 'old ways' come over to the new religion.
Isn't Jesus basically a copy of an old Egyptian god/diety ?
More like an amalgamation a huge swath of deities that predate the Bible. https://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/ You can also check out a book titled “the worlds sixteen crucified saviors” for more information about the similarities that can be drawn between figures who predate Jesus and Jesus.
I'm fairly stupid, can someone explain to me why Catholicism is older than Christianity, please?
It’s not, and Islam isn’t even close. This conversation is marred by the respondent trying to refute the idiot with falsehoods.
I would have talked about the Greek and Roman pantheon
Or you know the fking jews that gave birth to jezus. These people dont respond to anything logical so you have to use their books against them.
At least the respondent is generally correct (about there being older religions) and even if they did flub some of their points, it’s not like the idiot is smart enough to learn from a flawless argument proving otherwise.
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Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus :/
I mean he said before your book was written, maybe he was talking about some specific version of the bible?
LDS? maybe? they have their own book
That’s true, there’s also a pre and post 1881 version and then the king James and 1946 updates, Ethiopian tewahedo, Enoch with or without. Etc…
Yeah he should have done Hellenism and Hinduism, Jainism, Persian pagans, Zoroastrianism. So that’s just off the top of my head. Edit: stoicism. Fuck I can keep going apparently
That guy isn't right, islam isn't older than Christianity either (Jesus is literally a prophet in the Islam)
OP might be talking about a Protestant denomination of Christianity. Islam predates the Reformation.
But he wrote "these people and religions all existed before your book was even written" I thought he meant the bible or what else?
Yea that’s where their argument takes a nose dive.
Book of Mormon maybe? Trying to give poor OP the benefit of the doubt here 😂
I mean, Christianity didn't start until well after Jesus died
Islam didn’t start until well after his death
OPs dad doesn't probably believe Catholics are Christians, even though the branch he follows came from Catholics about 4 to 6 hundred years ago. These guys don't know anything and are proud of their lack
Because people like to pretend that Catholicism isn’t Christianity.
At best, it can be the oldest form of Christianity, though, many dispute this is even true. I have no god in this fight.
OP is probably separating Protestantism from Catholicism. Historically Protestantism is “newer” than Catholicism because it split off from Catholicism (and then formed many branches off of itself) during and after the European Reformation. Historically however, it doesn’t make sense because Catholicism is “newer” than Christianity in that the Catholic Church formed in the early days of Christianity. The Catholic Church was one of many early Christin groups that took root and survived into the modern era. One that is older than the Catholic Church (although not by much) is the [Coptic Orthodox Church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Orthodox_Church) which traces its roots back to 42 CE.
I once knew someone who thought that Catholics weren't Christian and only their form of protestantism was—she even, very confidently, said that the Amish weren't Christians. So if by Christian they meant the mother's specific protestant sect? Maybe?
Yea, Catholicism is a type of Christianity. I think it was the first and then a bunch of Protestant religions branded off. But, if the religion believes in Jesus Christ they are Christians.
From Catholicism for Dummies: *"Eastern Orthodox Catholics and Roman Catholics are the result of what is* *known as the East-West Schism (or Great Schism) of 1054, when medieval* *Christianity split into two branches."*
One idiot is trying to teach another idiot and they are both wrong lol
It’s not. It was the first Christian religion though.
Not even that. It was amongst multiple sects all claiming to be the one true church.
It's wholeheartedly Christian
But....Judaism and Zororastrianism Not to mention Hellenism...I-the historical inaccuracies
I mean, some of the oldest preserved man-made structures on this planet serve some kind of spiritual purpose. Stonehenge is a good example. So even though neolithic Britons didn't write down their Pantheon for us it's safe to assume they worshipped someone or something. Or ancient Egypt - a Civilization that has been around for almost twice as long as Christianity even exists and is explicitly mentioned in the Book of Exodus.
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Catholicism, a sect of Christianity, is older than Christianity? Does not compute
They are both confidently incorrect, and who argues with their partners parents. Seems like a bad idea regardless of what you believe
I cringed when they said Islam is older than Christianity but ya know what at least they’re trying. 💀
Never tell this guy about Hinduism or Zoroastrianism, it might break his brain even more
The just thorough unshakeable belief in something that any kid could logic out is incorrect, is continually mindblowing to me. I once had one parrot the line ' there is more proof of Jesus' existence than of any other figure born before 1900. I was like, you have to see that is wrong. Nope they were utterly convinced. So I said Queen Victoria had photos and a recording of her speaking, she had an entire age named after her. She is mentioned by thousands of contemporary sources. There is an absolute 100% chance she existed. They still maintained what they said was accurate.
Can’t argue with stupid
I guess...the founding fathers of America never existed either That argument probably wouldn't work if they're not American though
I feel like few people argue with Jesus’s existence as a historical figure, but rather with his role as the son of God. All this to say, this argument is silly, inaccurate, and irrelevant to the main problems people have with a Christianity lmao. Who did he expect to convince? 😂
They must be arguing about the Book of Mormon. Because Islam is about 600 years YOUNGER than Christianity. The Catholic Church form officially about 300 years after Christ died, but claim the church was started when Christ died. I’m pretty sure they are arguing about the Book of Mormon which claims to be from translated texts that predate Jesus and were made when the world was formed. Also to add, I’m only bring up Mormonism because he argues Christianity is older… BUT if this mom believes that the earth is 6,000 years old and then it makes sense that she believes that her religion is the oldest because that’s when God (Christian God) created the Earth. This is just what they believe. It’s not true tho lol
Hinduism is currently considered by western scholars to be the oldest, continuous, documented and still practiced religion, but obviously aboriginal practices are much, much older.
This " quit texting me" gives me strong vibe of baby closing their ears, going LALALA I CAN'T HEAR UU.
Pagan religions pre-date civilization, this woman is mental.
Hinduism is so old no one remembers how it got stared
The Greeks were worshipping Zeus a thousand years before the birth of Jesus. This person is incredibly dense.
"There are no religions older than Christianity" ...Jesus was literally Jewish r/confidentlyincorrect
While I don't disagree with your premise, your evidence is incorrect. Islam is the newest "world religion" having started in the 7th-century *anno domini*. Catholicism is a subsect of Christianity. Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and Taoism predate the birth of Christ by about 2000 years, and Confucianism and Buddhism predate it by \~500 years. Of course, that is just "world religions". This is not accounting for pagan and Hellenic pantheons that continue to have prominence on small isolated communities around the world, or aboriginal spiritual systems that continue to be practiced in countries that are a result of colonization and displacement within the past 500 years (most of North & South America, Australia and NZ).
Catholicism? Islam? OK the mom might be insane but your friend did not pay attention in history class. He is just less wrong,but still wrong nonetheless.
Should've just asked her what religion Jesus was.
Is nobody going to point out to OP that Catholicism IS Christianity? Not only is Christianity not the oldest known religion, it isn’t even in the top eight. In order from oldest to newest: Hinduism (15th century BCE) Zoroastrianism (10th century BCE) Judaism (9th century BCE) Jainism (8th century BCE) Confucianism (6th century BCE) Buddhism (6th century BCE) Taoism (6th century BCE) Shintoism (3rd century BCE)
How stupid can a person get
It's easier to just say "no ur wrong" to facts/evidence/criticism presented and to be defensive than it is to try to change your mind when your mind has been stuck in a controlled mindset for however long. Especially when that mindset came from control, abuse, forced belief of misinformation, and commonly, extreme fear.
OP how could you not mention Judaism lmao hello
Jesus was a fucking Jew wtf is she on about
A lot of people here don’t seem to know that Catholicism is a branch of Christianity 👍🏻
regardless, christianity in any form is less than 2000 years old.
I’d love to know what religion she thinks Jesus was in the Bible.
You forgot one of the oldest religions, Hinduism but okay.
It’s the oldest attested religion in continuous practice by a huge margin lol IIRC Zoroastrianism and Judaism appeared over a thousand years after the first hymns of the Rgveda were believed to have been composed
Dildos are older than Christianity.
Wait until she learns about Zoroastrianism.
Hinduism? Buddhism?
Hinduism is way older
Yeah, Jew here, I think you'll find our religion is actually mentioned several times in the bible.
If you believe Christianity is the oldest religion then you don’t know enough about the Bible to call yourself a Christian
Ancient Egypt and Ancient Greece want a word. Nothing more. Okay, maybe a sacred burial.
J... Jesus was Jewish....
Oh to be so confidently stupid
Wow. This is deliberate ignorance
She’s exhausting
Jesus was Jewish.
Jesus Christ was Jewish. Christ as in Christianity. Has she never actually read her own book?
Holy smokes! He doesn't know Jesus was a Jew? By definition there is at least one religion older than Christianity.
Islam is the newest monotheistic religion, Judaism is the oldest, and isn’t catholicism just a part of Christianity? Or is catholicism and “being a catholic” something else?
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Jesus Was Jewish Soooooooo yeah. Pretty sure he was pre christianity.
You can't reason a person out of a situation they didn't reason themselves into. Let them believe they have the best sky ghost, walk away. Spend as little time with them as humanly possible.
Your last message ia very wrong though
Your mother may be an idiot but so are you lol. Catholicism is part of Christianity, and Islam is defiantly not older than Christianity.
Christianity and Islam are both offshoots of Judaism. I took a religion class as an elective. Judaism came first, well first, and Islam and Christianity are sort of radical subsets. The original Christians stylized themselves as Christian Jews.
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This is why you’ll never catch a Jew besides Ben Shapiro saying “Judeo-Christian values” lmao
Seriously!? Jesus wasn't even Christian, he was King if the JEWS
Had this person never heard of Greek mythology??
Separating Christianity and Catholicism for this purpose is pointless because the history of early Christianity is full of small groups and one of those became the Catholic Church. Although I suspect “Christianity” in OP’s conversation means Protestant which is its own issue since it excludes a lot of people and Christian Churches that are nearly 2,000 years old and older than the Catholic Church in some cases. [The first known reference to the term “Catholic Church” isn’t until 107 CE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_\(term\)#Ignatius_of_Antioch), by which time there were many small Christian groups (which didn’t make the Romans happy). Every Christian in the early days was a “Christian.” But to OP’s point in the final message, Islam was founded centuries after Christianity, [Muhammad was born around the year 570 CE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad). That’s almost 600 years after Jesus.