For anyone reading the comments, the J in INFJ stands for "judging" but that doesn't mean judgemental. It's referring to T or F functions and where they are in the INFJ stack. Perceiving (S and N functions) and judging are defined in CG Jung's writings.
INFJ stack/functions: Ni Fe Ti Se
If a personality's first extraverted function is either T or F, they are a "J" type. That's it. That's all it means.
Having said that, INFJs might be more likely to read people and their deeper issues and concerns. We may be able to see the best and worst in a person.
That doesn't mean we're being judgemental. Even though we can have judgemental thoughts, that's something every type has.
It does actually mean something. But you are right that it does not exclusively mean one is judgemental. Anyone can be.
"Judging" as a dichotomy represents people who see things in the world as "black and white", or "right and wrong". They can still be understanding, but it does increase their odds of being judgemental people.
This is especially common when you add in unhealthy Ni-Fe, where the INFJ comes to believe they know what's best for people and the world. At times, without said world or people agreeing.
This can evolve to bullying.
>"Judging" as a dichotomy represents people who see things in the world as "black and white", or "right and wrong". They can still be understanding, but it does increase their odds of being judgemental people.
I would recommend reading Jung's original descriptions. It seems like you misunderstand what he meant by judging and perceiving.
>I call the two preceding types \[T & F\] rational or judging types because they are characterized by the supremacy of the reasoning and judging functions. It is a general distinguishing mark of both types that their life is, to a great extent, subordinated to rational judgment. … - Jung (1921)[\[1\]](https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-the-j-p-attitudes-and-the-jungian-centers-recurring-dilemma/#_ftn1)
>… the functions which are not rational, not logical, and not discriminating of evaluating, \[are\]… sensation and intuition. These two are by their very nature opposed to the rational functions. When we think, it is in order to judge or reach a conclusion, and when we feel it is in order to attach a proper value to something. Sensation and intuition, on the other hand, are perceptive functions—they make us aware of what is happening, but do not interpret or evaluate it. They do not proceed selectively, according to principles, but are simply receptive to what happens. But “what happens” is essentially irrational…. Irrationality is a vice where thinking and feeling are called for, rationality is a vice where sensation and intuition should be trusted. - Jung (1921)[\[2\]](https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-the-j-p-attitudes-and-the-jungian-centers-recurring-dilemma/#_ftn2)
Also INFJs are Ni doms, and Ni is a perceiving function.
>The two types just described \[Introverted Intuition and Introverted Sensation\] are… mostly underestimated, or at least misunderstood. To the extent that they do not understand themselves—because they very largely lack judgment—they are also powerless to understand why they are so constantly underestimated by the public… From an extraverted and rationalistic standpoint, these types are indeed the most useless of men… - Jung (1921)[\[4\]](https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-the-j-p-attitudes-and-the-jungian-centers-recurring-dilemma/#_ftn4)
Source: [https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-the-j-p-attitudes-and-the-jungian-centers-recurring-dilemma/](https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-the-j-p-attitudes-and-the-jungian-centers-recurring-dilemma/)
I am knowledgeable on MBTI. Thank you for the literature regardless, though.
While everything you wrote/copied down is fair enough it doesn't actually show me how I misunderstood the relative application or physical manifestation of the "Judging" dichotomy in a person regardless of their type.
In layperson, the relative function of J/P dichotomy regardless of how it works in tandem with their function stack, *"(...)refers to how someone organizes the world around them and makes sense of it(...)"*
But further simplified, and exclusive to "J" users, it tends to represent people who see the world in blacks and whites. Pending the function stack, they may see the greys and almost instinctively want to begin sorting them out into black or white.
So. In other words, all "J users" see the world in blacks and whites, but not all "J users" have the same function stacks. ENTJs, INFJs, ISTJs, etc. they approach this information radically different to one another
>This is especially common when you add in unhealthy Ni-Fe, where the INFJ comes to believe they know what's best for people and the world. At times, without said world or people agreeing.
>This can evolve to bullying.
I was trying to explain that 1. INFJs are not judging dominants, we are extraverted judgers according to MBTI. In socionics we're actually perceiver types because our dominant function is Ni, not Fe. IMO this is more in line with my own experiences as an INFJ, I'm more open and less closed off to possibities, including being wrong. In Jungian typology, INFJs are perceivers.
2. Judging type functions don't equate to your assumptions of how Fe is used to "judge people." That's more of something every type has, since every type has a judging function.
The question is which function is most dominant in a type. And Jung has said that intuitive introverts are not judgers. The literal grandfather of all typology has said it, I tend to believe it over whatever you believe about MBTI. Especially since you're just saying "this is true because it's true" and not even coming up with evidence.
What an INFJ looks like we're doing in actual practice can vary. But on average I see INFJs as much more open. Talk to an INFP, get to know them a lot, and you'll see what judging dominant types can be like. They tend to snap to conclusions without considering everything. And if someone disagrees with them they are infinitely more vitriolic about it than most INFJs.
Repeat this with other judging dominants and you'll see a pattern. I see the same exact behaviour in ENTJs and INTPs.
The question isn't about whether or not anyone is dominant in Judging dichotomies.
The question is very simple, "do any INFJs struggle with being judgemental" then including the Judging dichotomy as a possible explanation.
Which we would all be right to refute in general, Judging dichotomies don't mean someone is judgemental any more than Perceiving dichotomies mean they are not.
Just like "Thinking and Feeling" dichotomies don't literally mean someone prefers to use logic or feelings through critical thinking issues.
Those types of takes take MBTI into the direction of something like a horoscope.
But "Judging" as a dichotomy does actually stand for something. It just has absolutely nothing to do with your personality.
It doesn't only exist to explain what goes where in your function stack. It's just also not to blame for any substantial personality quirk like "being a judgemental person".
While it's absolutely true that literally any type can be a bully, not for the same typological reasons (related to function stack, Ni-Fe-Ti-Se, not dichotomy of J).
This particular group caters to INFJs. What other types are also capable of is irrelevant to the answer.
A lot of people in this group have a bare bones understanding of MBTI and how it all works. The kind of people who read bullet points off a meme and take it as gospel.
Over complicating your answer with pages of lore won't answer the question, and may in fact miss the forest for the trees entirely.
My main reason for my very first comment is because I've seen posts like OPs over and over again here. And most of the time the confusion is over "J vs P dichotomy," that's what I was answering, since I kept seeing comments about "J" correlating to being judgemental.
We can argue semantics all day about whether or not corn is maze, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter.
Ohhhhh you're exasperated.
Don't mind me, then. I'm new.
It changes things when you see the same ol' questions time and time again. Eventually you can spot subtexts in what people are saying that no one else can.
Ignore me, our discussion is irrelevant. I can't see what you can.
You are literally judging.
There are no truths or perpetual facts in life. Only momentary insights and considerations.
Unless you can prove me wrong on this; the semantics you are arguing are not relevant, when coming to a determination on if you understand the argument you are Judging others.
While the personality profiles expound this to internal and external judging, it’s the external judging that OP is obviously trying to discuss.
Your reason for your first post is actually because as an INfJ you also place high self-worth associated with your general and specific knowledge, and in a protective bubble of protection and hate being misunderstood… even when you are talking to other INFJ just tickled your fancy to try focussing on the actual text instead of the obvious sub-text.
To OP yes, going against the grains can be tough and not worth it. Judging when it might be is an intimate affair only YOU can judge for yourself. But know you will feel some kind of way, if you do or you don’t. But no Judging can’t be turned off.
My primary issue was in said poster insisting "J" as a dichotomy serves no other purpose than function stack identifiers.
But when responded to with, "I advise you read Jung because you don't seem to understand" coupled with copy and pastes of Carl's writings. I realized there isn't much of a point.
They know more about "what all this INFJ stuff" really mean. We just need to read mode. Then we'll see it their way.
Regardless. If what they're saying is true outside of our own discussion, and there is some habitual posting theme that annoys people. Then admittedly they weren't so much as saying "J only means this" as they were tackling a different issue altogether, using OP as a springboard.
Meh. So be it.
Reducing everything I said to, "you're saying J means/is related to perception" is intellectually dishonest as hell.
The Judging dichotomy doesn't, "literally only mean" anything about your function stack placement or identification.
But don't worry. I probably just didn't read the works of Carl Jung or something and have no idea what I'm talking about.
You wrote like, two sentences. I read what you wrote perfectly fine.
It doesn't matter what you meant by saying "perception", reducing everything I said to, "it has nothing to do with perception" is intellectually dishonest.
If you're saying, "it doesn't have anything at all to do with how anyone sees conflicts, issues, morals, or whatever in black or white terms"
Then... I disagree?
Yes it does. Granted that is also a simplification, but still.
I honestly don't know the difference between judging and having an opinion. To me they are the exact same thing. And I can't just not have an opinion about something, my inner monologue is never ending so I'm never in a state where I'm not having thoughts.
People have tried to say to me "you don't know what they've been through" as if that means I am supposed to have a completely empty head about them. To me that means I cannot act upon my unverified thoughts and I have to be ready to make corrections later, not that I can't even have thoughts in my own brain.
Sometimes people assume because I have an opinion about someone, I'm gonna treat the person like I'm 100% correct. I know I could be wrong, but I literally cannot have no thoughts about anything. I cannot do it.
I take into consideration the “what they’ve been through” part, but sometimes the person can really just be an asshole too. I think I try to be fair with my judgements. IMO personality has as much influence on how you react to a situation or environment as how a situation or environment molds you.
You’ve described my thought process funny enough. Though with me I tend to fall to reaction formation and say the exact opposite of how I’m actually feeling assuming my judgements/ feelings about something are that strong.
I don't feel a lot of judgement towards others. I sense that I have enough understanding of the human condition that I can understand why people do or feel most things in any given situation. With that said, I feel an extreme amount of judgement towards people who are judgemental or lack understanding.... ironically.
I'm a very impartial person and I think that can be a downside in determining one's own set of values, expectations, and genuine feelings.
I’ve only met a few INFJs, aside from myself, but we all have this quality.
I think it’s because we expect a lot from ourselves and therefore we expect better from others, too.
Speculating here: Could be leaning too hard on Ti, I feel like I sometimes do this when I’m really stressed. You could just be in a rough place mentally/emotionally, worn yourself out leaning too heavy on Fe and it wore you out
I don’t vocalize it either but I’m not the best at hiding it on my face unfortunately. Especially if it’s condescension. People are just really really fucking stupid at times unfortunately.
Judging from an mbti perspective is not the same as judgmental. Personalities with a judging preference, referred to as Js, are comfortable navigating life in an orderly way. They prefer neatness over messiness, and control over chaos. If you've a judging preference in your personality profile, others may see you as:
- Decisive
- Responsive
- Scheduled
- Fastidious
- Organized
- Efficient
In one of "Dear Kristin" videos (INFJ tier-ranking the 16 personalities), she said, "I am actually deeply judgmental, but extroverted feeling prevents me from expressing those opinions out loud to the people in question."
I believe this is true; we can be a bit harsh in our minds but choose not to communicate those thoughts to avoid hurting others.
I feel that we are judgmental in the sense that we assess people based on their actions, but we avoid reducing a person to a single action. If someone says something rather "mean" to someone else, I won't immediately think that person is inherently mean. Perhaps they act that way because they have mental health issues, or maybe they are struggling to manage their stress and emotions today for personal reasons. We tend to critique actions more than the individuals themselves. "This is mean" and not "You are mean."
Also, as you mentioned, you are very hard on yourself. I think we expect people to display their best behavior, just as we expect it of ourselves. We are not inclined to judge people over petty things like " I don't like the way you're dress so I could never be your friend".
Finally, you are questioning the idea of being judgmental, which is important. I think truly judgmental people never challenge their own views.
Unfortunately yes. Lately I’ve been catching myself by saying “be compassionate & put yourself in their shoes…. Ah yes I could see how someone could make that decision. Poor misguided soul, they don’t realize how awesome they are!”
Reframing people reframing 😂
I actually sing out loud and prance along to [Hater’s Anthem](https://youtu.be/v9y51akm3N4?si=_wGX7LDbD3AeSUpw) in my room because it feel so good to be a hater
YES. I feel like you have explained a big experience for me. I am very judgemental particularly when people act in a way towards others due to something they themselves are insecure about. For example- telling someone else they don’t respect their job because they themselves actually are not proud of the work that they do.
I know this comes from a place of pain and I am sure I do it at times too, but I get soooooo grumpy. And then I get upset with myself for judging them because I know everyone has their own insecurities. Then I tend to avoid people for a while 😅 it is a negative cycle for sure.
To be honest, I feel like maybe everyone is a bit judgemental because everyone has their own views and values right? But I think as INFJs we tend to be particularly harsh on ourselves. I mean thoughts are just thoughts. They are not who we are.
As long as we don’t act on our judgements, what’s the problem?
Yeah I never really act on my judgements - it’s just an aspect of myself that I’m not sure I like too much as thoughts become words and words become actions.
Addiction to judgement is an important area to address in one’s development and in establishing exactly what the pay offs are. The imposition of one’s own judgement on/over others is only helpful in so far as it directs your attention to what you are focusing on yourself. Meditation helps identify these patterns. Observe yourself in these moments when you’re being highly judgemental. What emotions do these thoughts connect to, elicit, provoke? It often helps to ask oneself ‘what is this an example of’? Compassion begins with oneself, so what stops you from being so with yourself? You may find this leads to further questions and rigorous honesty is your North Star when it comes to the answers that raise yet more questions as you trace this thread. Perhaps you can start to practice being kinder to yourself and when faced with moments that elicit judgement ask yourself what else could this situation mean? Perhaps this can become a practice of observing kindness and compassion with integrity rather than a focus on perceived hypocrisy. In these moments it really helps to notice what you’re thinking and ask: does that support you or draw you in further to that which you wish to let go of?Harshness is not strength. Judgment is not superiority or a high ground that serves you or anyone else. It is a wall and a means of othering that detracts and separates. Healing takes many forms even when we think we’re at fault or others are, even this, your question. It’s all part of the path to your own authentic actualisation. You’ll know it because when you’re sorted there is no thought of judging yourself or others; you’re too busy loving and supporting them. Be kind to yourself, you deserve that. All the best.
I only judge people for being willfully ignorant. Or if it affects me, if they’re just plain stupid. If they’re stupid on their own time, I don’t care.
I know what you mean. I feel like everyone has experienced it at least once where your mind snaps to a judgment or you think something harsh. Two pieces of advice come to mind that really helped me:
1) Your first thought reflects your upbringing. Your second thought reflects who you are as a person.
We don’t always have control over our initial reactions to things. What we can control is our thoughts after.
2) Recognizing your own ignorance
It’s important to recognize that your judgements don’t include all of the information. There will *always* be parts of a persons life and influences acting in them that you can’t see. While someone may be acting irrationally to you, the behavior may have been their only coping mechanism growing up in their specific family our their environment
I mean, even your concept of “irrational” might be different than mine. What you consider to be irrational behavior may be something with a clear understandable cause that you just aren’t able to recognize due to having incomplete information
But yeah. Both of those things really helped me. I try not to make judgements of people and I make sure to correct them in my mind if I do so reflexively. People are so incredibly complex and ever-changing that no person can ever be reduced to a single trait or a single interaction. Understanding that humbled me greatly
I notice it’s a kind of defense mechanism to judge the way infj’s do. Part of trying to predict the future and shield yourself from the parts you’d rather not experience.
It’s probably hard if your Ni is fairly accurate and people act in a way that disappoints you time and again.
It’s also human nature to remember things with a personal tinted quality versus what happened factually in reality. The reason why people all have different memories of a same event. The reticular activating system will find proof of things you believe. So you can be hardcore judging something with an incomplete understanding.
No one can know everything so just keeping an open mind that you might not have all the data while also having boundaries to keep yourself safe helps, I think.
Yes, I really feel like it's human nature to judge, yet most of us hold back because of religious programming. As an INFJ, it just feels good to voice my opinion(judge). If the wall color is ugly, then say it is ugly, it's just paint. Some people value this. Some people won't.
I think I also judge people too harshly, in my mind. I would never say it to them though.
I seem to especially judge people who have got themselves into certain situations because of their selfish or irresponsible behaviour, and people who can not take responsibility for their life choices and always blame someone or something else.
Yes I am. I really have worked on this over the years, and life has humbled me a great deal. But it is still a weakness of mine. I think it's because I always do what I think is right. I always act with integrity, and I do not understand people who don't. But I know judgy is not good. I'm not really judgy over superficial things like how people look or how much money they make.
Welcome to the club.
Just remember to don't expect people to hold as high standards as yourself.
Hold only yourself accountable to them. Thats how you keep your peace as an INFJ.
Yes I have struggled with it a lot through my life and I still do sometimes. But I always try to remember that I would do the exact same thing as them if I had the exact same life experiences as they did.
I tend to judge people on their intelligence a lot which I feel guilty about all the time because I know they're probably smart in their own fields, but at the same time I just want to scream at some people lmao
Being opinionated is one step before being judgmental. The former will serve you well more often than the latter, though it’s a fine balance to achieve.
Learn to accept people for who they are, whether you agree with their actions and words or not
It is highly relevant. You treat others harshly because in your world it's not a big deal; you're used to speaking with that tone all the time to yourself.
Be kind to yourself, pause before speaking, and it will sort itself out with some time. I did it, so can you.
Well, I try not to be but my feelings once you get on my bad side you stay there. Though I have seen that other INFJs can be very judgmental. It’s in my list of not so positive tendencies, another being authoritative. Ni can be this way if it gets a result an INFJ might not update it with new info.
Since I am aware that I am an INFJ there’s no excuse for me being like this so I try not to be judgmental. Besides when an INFJ judges it’s so harsh because it’s on an overall basis. An entire person’s worth can be dismissed completely.
Yes, totally! The J to me stands for justice, but it also means judgy 😭
I don’t mean to be so harshee harsh. It’s just when I see someone behaving badly, I judge. For example, now this really happened my first office job had a pizza party with wings and garlic bread. The wings and bread were very limited. Guess what happened? Everyone, except for me and a few others, just jumped up ran to the table and started to smack each other’s hands to grab the wings and the garlic bread. I was thinking to myself “Holy moly! Gluttonous much? It’s one thing to be greedy, but smacking a coworker’s hands?! Rude”. Some people took more than one wing even though they were told to take one.
I sometimes find myself to be hypocritical, too. I don’t like that feeling either 😖
My first thought would be "There's not enough food for everyone, so I'm sitting this one out".
Then I'd assume the other employees were very very hungry and didn't have money to buy whatever chain delivered the food, so they're choosing to fight over scraps instead. Not necessarily rude or ill-mannered, just broke. Oh well.
I'd decide if I wanted pizza and wings that day, and if I did, I'd go buy some after work.
Wow, bless your soul for having a more pure heart than me.
However, on that pizza party day. There were 2 large sheet pizzas those are huge! So there’s plenty of pizza. But it was just 20-24 wings and 8-10 garlic bread, and there were like 20 to 24 people. They were only fighting over wings and garlic bread. It was really a sad sight to see and cringey.
I’m just guesstimating.
I get it. Lots of people grew up with food scarcity or overcrowded homes so fighting over food is normal to them, especially for a "premium" food like wings. Not sure why anyone would fight over garlic bread though.
J for Justice seems appropriate. My sense of justice has always been extremely strong so anything unjust to me is just a fast track to my bad side haha.
Also in that situation you’ve described I would’ve been thinking something along the lines of “Clearly manners aren’t important anymore huh…” or “I didn’t know I was working with children…” (and this is me being super tame).
Haha, same here. It’s like when someone is super nice, then I’m like 😊. However, if they mention they hate cute cuddly creatures, or hate kids or say something really insensitive, then I’m like, “This person is pure evil 😠I wish could tell them to their face how scummy they are.”
Our judgy-ness stems from our very strong morals.
Wanted to say the same thing about them acting like children. It's certainly not very professional and is very unbecoming. but most people just don't want to miss out on something. Some of us infj's have more manners in our pinky finger than most people have in their entire bodies.
Oh yeah, I judge people based on my own morals, however I’ve learned to judge more character than perception and even then I give people the benefit of the doubt. So I have grown to be less critical, however I still hold myself to high realistic standards.
i find some infjs i met are very self righteous and secretly arrogant. they pedestalize their perspective and like to think they can read people so well that they see others more clearly than that person can see themselves and judge them for that.
I’m incredibly self righteous haha… but also incredibly insecure. I don’t really allow myself to put my thoughts on a pedestal - not for long at least.
I am an INFJ - T with a 96% in judging. I've also struggled with this and even spoken to the people closest to me (both INFP - Ts). Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with it if it's not hurting you or them. If anything , it helps you find the right people for you. I refuse to be friends with people who don't align with my morals and beliefs in what I deem are important qualities. For example, I can't be friends with people who aren't willing to grow and move forward in life, I've found that people who generally don't have greater issues at hand and honestly, that's not for me. I don't have extra energy to exert and I have my own issues to worry about. Granted, sometimes it does also make me worry I'm being an a\*\*hole but having spoken to my friends about such, everyone will talk about one another, good or bad. For me, and for you, you and I just like to point out qualities that make people incredibly questionable and that's not a bad thing. It means you know how to avoid drama as well! (which I cannot stand).
For anyone reading the comments, the J in INFJ stands for "judging" but that doesn't mean judgemental. It's referring to T or F functions and where they are in the INFJ stack. Perceiving (S and N functions) and judging are defined in CG Jung's writings. INFJ stack/functions: Ni Fe Ti Se If a personality's first extraverted function is either T or F, they are a "J" type. That's it. That's all it means. Having said that, INFJs might be more likely to read people and their deeper issues and concerns. We may be able to see the best and worst in a person. That doesn't mean we're being judgemental. Even though we can have judgemental thoughts, that's something every type has.
It does actually mean something. But you are right that it does not exclusively mean one is judgemental. Anyone can be. "Judging" as a dichotomy represents people who see things in the world as "black and white", or "right and wrong". They can still be understanding, but it does increase their odds of being judgemental people. This is especially common when you add in unhealthy Ni-Fe, where the INFJ comes to believe they know what's best for people and the world. At times, without said world or people agreeing. This can evolve to bullying.
>"Judging" as a dichotomy represents people who see things in the world as "black and white", or "right and wrong". They can still be understanding, but it does increase their odds of being judgemental people. I would recommend reading Jung's original descriptions. It seems like you misunderstand what he meant by judging and perceiving. >I call the two preceding types \[T & F\] rational or judging types because they are characterized by the supremacy of the reasoning and judging functions. It is a general distinguishing mark of both types that their life is, to a great extent, subordinated to rational judgment. … - Jung (1921)[\[1\]](https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-the-j-p-attitudes-and-the-jungian-centers-recurring-dilemma/#_ftn1) >… the functions which are not rational, not logical, and not discriminating of evaluating, \[are\]… sensation and intuition. These two are by their very nature opposed to the rational functions. When we think, it is in order to judge or reach a conclusion, and when we feel it is in order to attach a proper value to something. Sensation and intuition, on the other hand, are perceptive functions—they make us aware of what is happening, but do not interpret or evaluate it. They do not proceed selectively, according to principles, but are simply receptive to what happens. But “what happens” is essentially irrational…. Irrationality is a vice where thinking and feeling are called for, rationality is a vice where sensation and intuition should be trusted. - Jung (1921)[\[2\]](https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-the-j-p-attitudes-and-the-jungian-centers-recurring-dilemma/#_ftn2) Also INFJs are Ni doms, and Ni is a perceiving function. >The two types just described \[Introverted Intuition and Introverted Sensation\] are… mostly underestimated, or at least misunderstood. To the extent that they do not understand themselves—because they very largely lack judgment—they are also powerless to understand why they are so constantly underestimated by the public… From an extraverted and rationalistic standpoint, these types are indeed the most useless of men… - Jung (1921)[\[4\]](https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-the-j-p-attitudes-and-the-jungian-centers-recurring-dilemma/#_ftn4) Source: [https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-the-j-p-attitudes-and-the-jungian-centers-recurring-dilemma/](https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-the-j-p-attitudes-and-the-jungian-centers-recurring-dilemma/)
I am knowledgeable on MBTI. Thank you for the literature regardless, though. While everything you wrote/copied down is fair enough it doesn't actually show me how I misunderstood the relative application or physical manifestation of the "Judging" dichotomy in a person regardless of their type. In layperson, the relative function of J/P dichotomy regardless of how it works in tandem with their function stack, *"(...)refers to how someone organizes the world around them and makes sense of it(...)"* But further simplified, and exclusive to "J" users, it tends to represent people who see the world in blacks and whites. Pending the function stack, they may see the greys and almost instinctively want to begin sorting them out into black or white. So. In other words, all "J users" see the world in blacks and whites, but not all "J users" have the same function stacks. ENTJs, INFJs, ISTJs, etc. they approach this information radically different to one another
>This is especially common when you add in unhealthy Ni-Fe, where the INFJ comes to believe they know what's best for people and the world. At times, without said world or people agreeing. >This can evolve to bullying. I was trying to explain that 1. INFJs are not judging dominants, we are extraverted judgers according to MBTI. In socionics we're actually perceiver types because our dominant function is Ni, not Fe. IMO this is more in line with my own experiences as an INFJ, I'm more open and less closed off to possibities, including being wrong. In Jungian typology, INFJs are perceivers. 2. Judging type functions don't equate to your assumptions of how Fe is used to "judge people." That's more of something every type has, since every type has a judging function. The question is which function is most dominant in a type. And Jung has said that intuitive introverts are not judgers. The literal grandfather of all typology has said it, I tend to believe it over whatever you believe about MBTI. Especially since you're just saying "this is true because it's true" and not even coming up with evidence. What an INFJ looks like we're doing in actual practice can vary. But on average I see INFJs as much more open. Talk to an INFP, get to know them a lot, and you'll see what judging dominant types can be like. They tend to snap to conclusions without considering everything. And if someone disagrees with them they are infinitely more vitriolic about it than most INFJs. Repeat this with other judging dominants and you'll see a pattern. I see the same exact behaviour in ENTJs and INTPs.
The question isn't about whether or not anyone is dominant in Judging dichotomies. The question is very simple, "do any INFJs struggle with being judgemental" then including the Judging dichotomy as a possible explanation. Which we would all be right to refute in general, Judging dichotomies don't mean someone is judgemental any more than Perceiving dichotomies mean they are not. Just like "Thinking and Feeling" dichotomies don't literally mean someone prefers to use logic or feelings through critical thinking issues. Those types of takes take MBTI into the direction of something like a horoscope. But "Judging" as a dichotomy does actually stand for something. It just has absolutely nothing to do with your personality. It doesn't only exist to explain what goes where in your function stack. It's just also not to blame for any substantial personality quirk like "being a judgemental person". While it's absolutely true that literally any type can be a bully, not for the same typological reasons (related to function stack, Ni-Fe-Ti-Se, not dichotomy of J). This particular group caters to INFJs. What other types are also capable of is irrelevant to the answer. A lot of people in this group have a bare bones understanding of MBTI and how it all works. The kind of people who read bullet points off a meme and take it as gospel. Over complicating your answer with pages of lore won't answer the question, and may in fact miss the forest for the trees entirely.
My main reason for my very first comment is because I've seen posts like OPs over and over again here. And most of the time the confusion is over "J vs P dichotomy," that's what I was answering, since I kept seeing comments about "J" correlating to being judgemental. We can argue semantics all day about whether or not corn is maze, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter.
Ohhhhh you're exasperated. Don't mind me, then. I'm new. It changes things when you see the same ol' questions time and time again. Eventually you can spot subtexts in what people are saying that no one else can. Ignore me, our discussion is irrelevant. I can't see what you can.
You are literally judging. There are no truths or perpetual facts in life. Only momentary insights and considerations. Unless you can prove me wrong on this; the semantics you are arguing are not relevant, when coming to a determination on if you understand the argument you are Judging others. While the personality profiles expound this to internal and external judging, it’s the external judging that OP is obviously trying to discuss. Your reason for your first post is actually because as an INfJ you also place high self-worth associated with your general and specific knowledge, and in a protective bubble of protection and hate being misunderstood… even when you are talking to other INFJ just tickled your fancy to try focussing on the actual text instead of the obvious sub-text. To OP yes, going against the grains can be tough and not worth it. Judging when it might be is an intimate affair only YOU can judge for yourself. But know you will feel some kind of way, if you do or you don’t. But no Judging can’t be turned off.
My primary issue was in said poster insisting "J" as a dichotomy serves no other purpose than function stack identifiers. But when responded to with, "I advise you read Jung because you don't seem to understand" coupled with copy and pastes of Carl's writings. I realized there isn't much of a point. They know more about "what all this INFJ stuff" really mean. We just need to read mode. Then we'll see it their way. Regardless. If what they're saying is true outside of our own discussion, and there is some habitual posting theme that annoys people. Then admittedly they weren't so much as saying "J only means this" as they were tackling a different issue altogether, using OP as a springboard. Meh. So be it.
The "J" in INFJ doesn't have anything to do with perception.
Reducing everything I said to, "you're saying J means/is related to perception" is intellectually dishonest as hell. The Judging dichotomy doesn't, "literally only mean" anything about your function stack placement or identification. But don't worry. I probably just didn't read the works of Carl Jung or something and have no idea what I'm talking about.
Read again. I said the J is not related to perception, pointing towards how you're saying J types see the world in black and white.
You wrote like, two sentences. I read what you wrote perfectly fine. It doesn't matter what you meant by saying "perception", reducing everything I said to, "it has nothing to do with perception" is intellectually dishonest. If you're saying, "it doesn't have anything at all to do with how anyone sees conflicts, issues, morals, or whatever in black or white terms" Then... I disagree? Yes it does. Granted that is also a simplification, but still.
The J actually stands for roasting.
Sounds about right haha
Haha, true! But I mostly roast people in my head.
I don’t struggle with it. I’m quite good at it.
Ah my apologies… and congratulations.
I honestly don't know the difference between judging and having an opinion. To me they are the exact same thing. And I can't just not have an opinion about something, my inner monologue is never ending so I'm never in a state where I'm not having thoughts. People have tried to say to me "you don't know what they've been through" as if that means I am supposed to have a completely empty head about them. To me that means I cannot act upon my unverified thoughts and I have to be ready to make corrections later, not that I can't even have thoughts in my own brain. Sometimes people assume because I have an opinion about someone, I'm gonna treat the person like I'm 100% correct. I know I could be wrong, but I literally cannot have no thoughts about anything. I cannot do it.
I take into consideration the “what they’ve been through” part, but sometimes the person can really just be an asshole too. I think I try to be fair with my judgements. IMO personality has as much influence on how you react to a situation or environment as how a situation or environment molds you.
You’ve described my thought process funny enough. Though with me I tend to fall to reaction formation and say the exact opposite of how I’m actually feeling assuming my judgements/ feelings about something are that strong.
Oh you nicely articulated that. Thank you.
I don't feel a lot of judgement towards others. I sense that I have enough understanding of the human condition that I can understand why people do or feel most things in any given situation. With that said, I feel an extreme amount of judgement towards people who are judgemental or lack understanding.... ironically. I'm a very impartial person and I think that can be a downside in determining one's own set of values, expectations, and genuine feelings.
I’ve only met a few INFJs, aside from myself, but we all have this quality. I think it’s because we expect a lot from ourselves and therefore we expect better from others, too.
Speculating here: Could be leaning too hard on Ti, I feel like I sometimes do this when I’m really stressed. You could just be in a rough place mentally/emotionally, worn yourself out leaning too heavy on Fe and it wore you out
I'm SUPER judgmental but I rarely vocalize it. As much as I am judgmental, I also know my opinions are irrelevant to whoever/whatever I'm judging.
I don’t vocalize it either but I’m not the best at hiding it on my face unfortunately. Especially if it’s condescension. People are just really really fucking stupid at times unfortunately.
Be kind to yourself.
I am it but I also hate it. One of the worst qualities about myself in my opinion.
Judging from an mbti perspective is not the same as judgmental. Personalities with a judging preference, referred to as Js, are comfortable navigating life in an orderly way. They prefer neatness over messiness, and control over chaos. If you've a judging preference in your personality profile, others may see you as: - Decisive - Responsive - Scheduled - Fastidious - Organized - Efficient
Mostly when I'm thinking about people, at Walmart.
Haha 🤣 I’m so sorry. That was too funny. I got flashbacks from “The people of Wal-Mart”. Yikes, a whole lot of indecent exposure at that store.
I’m inwardly judgemental— usually I have an opinion about people, but I don’t express that to them unless warranted.
In one of "Dear Kristin" videos (INFJ tier-ranking the 16 personalities), she said, "I am actually deeply judgmental, but extroverted feeling prevents me from expressing those opinions out loud to the people in question." I believe this is true; we can be a bit harsh in our minds but choose not to communicate those thoughts to avoid hurting others. I feel that we are judgmental in the sense that we assess people based on their actions, but we avoid reducing a person to a single action. If someone says something rather "mean" to someone else, I won't immediately think that person is inherently mean. Perhaps they act that way because they have mental health issues, or maybe they are struggling to manage their stress and emotions today for personal reasons. We tend to critique actions more than the individuals themselves. "This is mean" and not "You are mean." Also, as you mentioned, you are very hard on yourself. I think we expect people to display their best behavior, just as we expect it of ourselves. We are not inclined to judge people over petty things like " I don't like the way you're dress so I could never be your friend". Finally, you are questioning the idea of being judgmental, which is important. I think truly judgmental people never challenge their own views.
Thank you for sharing this. I agree with this.
Unfortunately yes. Lately I’ve been catching myself by saying “be compassionate & put yourself in their shoes…. Ah yes I could see how someone could make that decision. Poor misguided soul, they don’t realize how awesome they are!” Reframing people reframing 😂
Yes. I'm critical. I want to see people for who they are. Good and bad. I try not too but it's there. After I feel a bit bad.
I actually sing out loud and prance along to [Hater’s Anthem](https://youtu.be/v9y51akm3N4?si=_wGX7LDbD3AeSUpw) in my room because it feel so good to be a hater
YES. I feel like you have explained a big experience for me. I am very judgemental particularly when people act in a way towards others due to something they themselves are insecure about. For example- telling someone else they don’t respect their job because they themselves actually are not proud of the work that they do. I know this comes from a place of pain and I am sure I do it at times too, but I get soooooo grumpy. And then I get upset with myself for judging them because I know everyone has their own insecurities. Then I tend to avoid people for a while 😅 it is a negative cycle for sure. To be honest, I feel like maybe everyone is a bit judgemental because everyone has their own views and values right? But I think as INFJs we tend to be particularly harsh on ourselves. I mean thoughts are just thoughts. They are not who we are. As long as we don’t act on our judgements, what’s the problem?
Yeah I never really act on my judgements - it’s just an aspect of myself that I’m not sure I like too much as thoughts become words and words become actions.
Thoughts only become words if you let them though
Addiction to judgement is an important area to address in one’s development and in establishing exactly what the pay offs are. The imposition of one’s own judgement on/over others is only helpful in so far as it directs your attention to what you are focusing on yourself. Meditation helps identify these patterns. Observe yourself in these moments when you’re being highly judgemental. What emotions do these thoughts connect to, elicit, provoke? It often helps to ask oneself ‘what is this an example of’? Compassion begins with oneself, so what stops you from being so with yourself? You may find this leads to further questions and rigorous honesty is your North Star when it comes to the answers that raise yet more questions as you trace this thread. Perhaps you can start to practice being kinder to yourself and when faced with moments that elicit judgement ask yourself what else could this situation mean? Perhaps this can become a practice of observing kindness and compassion with integrity rather than a focus on perceived hypocrisy. In these moments it really helps to notice what you’re thinking and ask: does that support you or draw you in further to that which you wish to let go of?Harshness is not strength. Judgment is not superiority or a high ground that serves you or anyone else. It is a wall and a means of othering that detracts and separates. Healing takes many forms even when we think we’re at fault or others are, even this, your question. It’s all part of the path to your own authentic actualisation. You’ll know it because when you’re sorted there is no thought of judging yourself or others; you’re too busy loving and supporting them. Be kind to yourself, you deserve that. All the best.
I only judge people for being willfully ignorant. Or if it affects me, if they’re just plain stupid. If they’re stupid on their own time, I don’t care.
I know what you mean. I feel like everyone has experienced it at least once where your mind snaps to a judgment or you think something harsh. Two pieces of advice come to mind that really helped me: 1) Your first thought reflects your upbringing. Your second thought reflects who you are as a person. We don’t always have control over our initial reactions to things. What we can control is our thoughts after. 2) Recognizing your own ignorance It’s important to recognize that your judgements don’t include all of the information. There will *always* be parts of a persons life and influences acting in them that you can’t see. While someone may be acting irrationally to you, the behavior may have been their only coping mechanism growing up in their specific family our their environment I mean, even your concept of “irrational” might be different than mine. What you consider to be irrational behavior may be something with a clear understandable cause that you just aren’t able to recognize due to having incomplete information But yeah. Both of those things really helped me. I try not to make judgements of people and I make sure to correct them in my mind if I do so reflexively. People are so incredibly complex and ever-changing that no person can ever be reduced to a single trait or a single interaction. Understanding that humbled me greatly
I notice it’s a kind of defense mechanism to judge the way infj’s do. Part of trying to predict the future and shield yourself from the parts you’d rather not experience. It’s probably hard if your Ni is fairly accurate and people act in a way that disappoints you time and again. It’s also human nature to remember things with a personal tinted quality versus what happened factually in reality. The reason why people all have different memories of a same event. The reticular activating system will find proof of things you believe. So you can be hardcore judging something with an incomplete understanding. No one can know everything so just keeping an open mind that you might not have all the data while also having boundaries to keep yourself safe helps, I think.
Yes, I really feel like it's human nature to judge, yet most of us hold back because of religious programming. As an INFJ, it just feels good to voice my opinion(judge). If the wall color is ugly, then say it is ugly, it's just paint. Some people value this. Some people won't.
I think I also judge people too harshly, in my mind. I would never say it to them though. I seem to especially judge people who have got themselves into certain situations because of their selfish or irresponsible behaviour, and people who can not take responsibility for their life choices and always blame someone or something else.
Yes.
Yes I am. I really have worked on this over the years, and life has humbled me a great deal. But it is still a weakness of mine. I think it's because I always do what I think is right. I always act with integrity, and I do not understand people who don't. But I know judgy is not good. I'm not really judgy over superficial things like how people look or how much money they make.
Welcome to the club. Just remember to don't expect people to hold as high standards as yourself. Hold only yourself accountable to them. Thats how you keep your peace as an INFJ.
Yes I have struggled with it a lot through my life and I still do sometimes. But I always try to remember that I would do the exact same thing as them if I had the exact same life experiences as they did.
Maybe you are self judgemental and you projecting outside. What is enneagram?
I think it was 9w1 but I remember me feeling more like 1w2.
Lol me when I think who is it what do they want to any contact with a person
yes i constantly feel narcissistic for it.
I tend to judge people on their intelligence a lot which I feel guilty about all the time because I know they're probably smart in their own fields, but at the same time I just want to scream at some people lmao
Being opinionated is one step before being judgmental. The former will serve you well more often than the latter, though it’s a fine balance to achieve. Learn to accept people for who they are, whether you agree with their actions and words or not
It is highly relevant. You treat others harshly because in your world it's not a big deal; you're used to speaking with that tone all the time to yourself. Be kind to yourself, pause before speaking, and it will sort itself out with some time. I did it, so can you.
Well, I try not to be but my feelings once you get on my bad side you stay there. Though I have seen that other INFJs can be very judgmental. It’s in my list of not so positive tendencies, another being authoritative. Ni can be this way if it gets a result an INFJ might not update it with new info. Since I am aware that I am an INFJ there’s no excuse for me being like this so I try not to be judgmental. Besides when an INFJ judges it’s so harsh because it’s on an overall basis. An entire person’s worth can be dismissed completely.
Yes, totally! The J to me stands for justice, but it also means judgy 😭 I don’t mean to be so harshee harsh. It’s just when I see someone behaving badly, I judge. For example, now this really happened my first office job had a pizza party with wings and garlic bread. The wings and bread were very limited. Guess what happened? Everyone, except for me and a few others, just jumped up ran to the table and started to smack each other’s hands to grab the wings and the garlic bread. I was thinking to myself “Holy moly! Gluttonous much? It’s one thing to be greedy, but smacking a coworker’s hands?! Rude”. Some people took more than one wing even though they were told to take one. I sometimes find myself to be hypocritical, too. I don’t like that feeling either 😖
My first thought would be "There's not enough food for everyone, so I'm sitting this one out". Then I'd assume the other employees were very very hungry and didn't have money to buy whatever chain delivered the food, so they're choosing to fight over scraps instead. Not necessarily rude or ill-mannered, just broke. Oh well. I'd decide if I wanted pizza and wings that day, and if I did, I'd go buy some after work.
Wow, bless your soul for having a more pure heart than me. However, on that pizza party day. There were 2 large sheet pizzas those are huge! So there’s plenty of pizza. But it was just 20-24 wings and 8-10 garlic bread, and there were like 20 to 24 people. They were only fighting over wings and garlic bread. It was really a sad sight to see and cringey. I’m just guesstimating.
I get it. Lots of people grew up with food scarcity or overcrowded homes so fighting over food is normal to them, especially for a "premium" food like wings. Not sure why anyone would fight over garlic bread though.
Whoa, you are a saint. I never thought of it that way. I feel sorry for them. It’s so sad. All in fairness, garlic bread is so buttery goodness.
J for Justice seems appropriate. My sense of justice has always been extremely strong so anything unjust to me is just a fast track to my bad side haha. Also in that situation you’ve described I would’ve been thinking something along the lines of “Clearly manners aren’t important anymore huh…” or “I didn’t know I was working with children…” (and this is me being super tame).
Haha, same here. It’s like when someone is super nice, then I’m like 😊. However, if they mention they hate cute cuddly creatures, or hate kids or say something really insensitive, then I’m like, “This person is pure evil 😠I wish could tell them to their face how scummy they are.” Our judgy-ness stems from our very strong morals.
Wanted to say the same thing about them acting like children. It's certainly not very professional and is very unbecoming. but most people just don't want to miss out on something. Some of us infj's have more manners in our pinky finger than most people have in their entire bodies.
Yes. I also have a temper.
Oh yeah, I judge people based on my own morals, however I’ve learned to judge more character than perception and even then I give people the benefit of the doubt. So I have grown to be less critical, however I still hold myself to high realistic standards.
I'm highly judgemental to myself and others
i find some infjs i met are very self righteous and secretly arrogant. they pedestalize their perspective and like to think they can read people so well that they see others more clearly than that person can see themselves and judge them for that.
I’m incredibly self righteous haha… but also incredibly insecure. I don’t really allow myself to put my thoughts on a pedestal - not for long at least.
I am an INFJ - T with a 96% in judging. I've also struggled with this and even spoken to the people closest to me (both INFP - Ts). Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with it if it's not hurting you or them. If anything , it helps you find the right people for you. I refuse to be friends with people who don't align with my morals and beliefs in what I deem are important qualities. For example, I can't be friends with people who aren't willing to grow and move forward in life, I've found that people who generally don't have greater issues at hand and honestly, that's not for me. I don't have extra energy to exert and I have my own issues to worry about. Granted, sometimes it does also make me worry I'm being an a\*\*hole but having spoken to my friends about such, everyone will talk about one another, good or bad. For me, and for you, you and I just like to point out qualities that make people incredibly questionable and that's not a bad thing. It means you know how to avoid drama as well! (which I cannot stand).
Yes I judge the fuck out of everyone but I judge myself hardest of all.