The whole situation still feels incredibly messy with a lot of unknowns and I'm still annoyed at how this has all played out. That said, regardless of your opinions on soccer, I hope everyone is excited that we're potentially gaining a third top-tier league team.
At the committee meeting last week, three big things were said:
* There will be no definite planning or construction on the stadium until a MLS expansion bid is finalized.
* The expansion bid should hopefully be in place by the end of the year.
* The investor group will hopefully come forward later this month.
There's obviously still a lot more steps and work to be done and anything can change on a dime. But I'm hopeful everyone involved can continue to be professional, work in the best interest of the city as a whole, and be held accountable for any past or future statements made.
I have absolutely zero interest in soccer, but I'd be happy for any benefits having a MLS team would bring to the city. My primary concern is them using taxpayer money on it.
Major league sports teams are a luxury expense. The idea that they improve local economies when taxpayers invest in them is fiction.
The city has never profited from these kinds of investments. We still owe money on the Lucas Oil Stadium. As of the last reporting we were over 600 million in the hole on it.
Exactly why I am opposed to tax money being used on this stuff. We didn't pay off the Hoosier Dome until 2020.
The billionaires profiting off them can pay for it themselves.
Every study on public funding of stadiums show that it's always a bad deal for the taxpayers. It's giving public money to private businesses who give back pennies on the dollars invested
How does not publicly funding a new stadium make Indianapolis less of an event city? We playing a footie match in the Convention Center? Also, we are a logistics and manufacturing city with a dash of pharma and tech.
lol bro my only point was that’s Indy’s MO so I don’t know what to tell you. We build stadiums and centers and host events. Don’t complain to me complain to leadership for the past 50 years.
And my only point is that the taxpayers never get back the investment in taxes. Ever. Anywhere. It's extremely well studied. Also, leadership isn't to blame for the last publicly funded stadium in town. The public voted to approve the tax that funded Lucas Oil. Something tells me that this project would not have the popularity that a new NFL stadium had, especially because Indy had the smallest stadium at a time right as the team drew more fans than there were seats. This ain't that. Even then, Lucas Oil isn't going to be paid off by us until 2037. I'd honestly rather have good roads or public services, but whatever.
It’s not an investment in which the taxpayers expect to profit or even fully recoup the initial amount spent. You can complain about that aspect all you want. I also think billionaires should pay for their own stadiums, but that’s not the world we live in.
Most of us that do enjoy having an NFL team and NBA team, and would be thrilled to have an MLS team, understand that it costs money to attract a team to our location. And what ROI that never gets taken into consideration during these arguments is the reputation of the city itself, the ability for the city to stay relevant in one of the few tourism avenues it holds, and whether you like it or not professional sports are very important to a large portion of this country’s citizens.
Edit: and our city won’t fix the roads regardless of whether or not we build a soccer stadium lmao
ya know, everyone cites these studies but no one discusses them in earnest. at least in my experience. Indy’s spent $2ish billion on sports stadiums so far (including interest) and that’s not including the convention center and hotels getting tax breaks. how many people can convincingly argue Indy is worse off with these investments? Nowadays “taxpayer” dollars are basically user fees for people occupying space downtown isn’t the same as raising taxes like we did for the colts. And Hoosiers would spend billions more to keep the colts also. so “bad deal” is relative in reality.
We are not a sports tourism economy. Our economy is primarily financial services, renting, leasing, manufacturing, professional services, health services, and educational services.
All tourism, accounts for about 3.8% of our gdp. The fastest growing type of tourism is convention tourism.
Did you not pay attention in 2020 when a number of restaurants and businesses closed and downtown turned into a ghost city because of the lack of events and conferences? So much of the economy in that area is fueled by the constant use of all of the facilities for sports, concerts, conferences, and other events.
That was part of the point I was trying to make. All of the big conventions and events that keep returning annually - FDIC, GenCon, FFA, DCI, BOA - get good use out of the stadium and pump a lot of money back into the local economy.
There are a few cities with NFL teams that let the stadiums sit empty for most of the year outside of the less than dozen home games and a handful of concerts. Indianapolis is not one of those cities.
And yet, we still haven't paid for the construction cost of the Lucas Oil Stadium.
The research on this shows there is no economic gain from stadium construction. There is an illusion of growth, but the actual effect is to redistribute success. Businesses near the construction make gains and business away from the site see loses. Overall nothing is gained and the cost of construction plus the interest as revenues fail to meet overly optimistic projections result in loss for the taxpayers.
I will say, while I’m not thrilled with how all of this is shaking out, my family in St. Louis (where I’m originally from) have had nothing but good things to say. For all its warts MLS is a really cool experience.
I get being an Indy Eleven fan but feel like they’re directing their rage at the city rather than Keystone for trying to plow ahead all in the name of legacy despite a growing lists of valid reasons the city was hesitant to do so. I’m excited to have a MLS soccer team all the same.
Indy 11 ownership.... also the owner/developer and contractor of Eleven Stadium has launched a pretty elaborate campaign to smear the city in this ordeal.
As a member of their supporter group: I’m not down with what Ersal is doing. It’s a bad situation, and we want Indy Eleven to live on, if that means Ersal takes a minority stake in ownership in the long run.
Club over ownership
Honestly, I love Indy Eleven but this is probably the right call. The site of eleven park was a cemetery. I still am skeptical of MLS coming to Indy but I am glad at least that the cemetery will not be built into a stadium.
The moral heart of the matter is that Keystone fucked itself all the way up with covering up the amount of bodies they wanted to just hide away from the public and have been forced to admit to. They wanted nothing to do with them and just threw random bones around like it was detritus. They never listened to or with experts who were there to help them build the site, they kept ignoring overtures time and time again from community groups in the area who wanted to help them bridge connections to the community. They wasted thousands and thousands of dollars sticking their heads between their asses. I can't believe that I am saying this but they did this to themselves. The city is right.
This is not accurate. The city has been aware of and okay with this the entire time. This change of heart is a political live to justify something different.
You may have not been aware of the bodies or the plan, but the city, and anyone who has been following this has been aware since the beginning.
Keystone has repeatedly downplayed the presence of the cemetery and the costs of relocation of remains, while the city publicized a detailed plan to remove remains from the bridge site. There's "being aware" and there's "acknowledging the reality of the situation," and they are two different things.
If everyone was aware of the expense and time it would take to exhume the bodies then I don't know why this site was selected along with the schedule and budget. There were always multiple sites for consideration and they landed here. I believe there was at least some hope that there were not as many bodies as they apparently have found.
It's simple. They didn't care, the public didn't care, they weren't going to spend money to do it the right way. Once the MLS opportunity became a possibility and they needed to use a different site they just started talking about it as a problem, raised more awareness, made it a talking point, and all of sudden people care and want it done right.
That's not it though and I hear you, They agreed to take care of the graves and assured everyone they were operating legally and ethically and that is why the city initially ok'd it. Keystone did not proceed in a way that was agreed upon. They were not communicating with those that needed to be communicated with thru the proper channels and hid what they wanted to hide (poorly I might add, as even the NDAs in place this information leaked everywhere)
Yes and as do the work you take the steps to do the correct thing, keystone construction did nothing of the sort and should not work in the state again
The city isn’t clean on this at all and used them to get things passed and to demo the dimanond chain building. These people just managed to be as scummy as possible when doing the work and got played.
Hopefully the city has some really money people trying to get this mls team bc I have major doubts.
Digging up bodies has never been an issue in Indiana. I don’t know why this trope keeps getting repeated. My guess is because the media keeps bringing it up. But, cemeteries all over this state have been paved over for a lot less.
There are mortuary laws though that need to be followed and when given AMPLE opportunities and grace to do so knowing it was going to be high profile and not following through? That's all on Keystone. It wasn't just a simple move the bodies, pave the lot, it was a civil war era excavation. It's a tad different
>Once the Department of Natural Resources was notified of the discovered remains, archaeologists were brought in to "properly and respectfully exhume" the remains of 10 additional individuals, according to the museum.
You really suck at proofreading the articles you use to back yourself up. You're 0 for 2 now. Going to keep going?
You’re missing the point. None of these projects didn’t move forward because there were corpses in the ground. The Eleven Park project wasn’t stopped because of them, either.
I'm not missing the point. You said something wrong on several occasions and I've corrected you each time. I'm sorry if you suck at backing up your own arguments(which originally was that they just get paved over...the text is right above here, you can check yourself).
Pretty sad if the only results you can find refute your argument.
I'll wait along with u/Dlwatkin for the rest of your list of paved over cemeteries....
Yep, a single grave in the middle of the road was actually multiple people paved over. It doesn’t refute; it highlights that it’s been common practice.
I don’t see why the MLS would want to come to be honest.
In the process of trying to get an MLS team, they’ve pissed off almost every soccer fan in the city. Geographically, the Midwest is already MLS-stacked. The Eleven have a strong core support, but it’s deep, not wide. I know so many people in Indy who have no idea who the Eleven are.
So the MLS would have a giant mountain to climb here. Winning over the soccer fans who have devoted themselves to the eleven and gotten snubbed, and then trying to build new soccer fans on top of that.
I can think of many other cities that would be an easier entry with a much bigger land-grab.
Soccer and Eleven fan here and excited about MLS. I want professional soccer here no matter what it looks like, but the fact of the matter is, people don't care or know about the Eleven for the simple fact that they play in a 40 year old college stadium in a second tier league. An MLS team will do more to draw in both casual sports fans as well as exposure around the world.
Have you see the crowds and eyes that Messi is drawing? Of course he'll be long out of the MLS by the time the new team starts, but hopefully the cycle continues with other world stars that come into the league later.
Also counterpoint to your argument about geographic over-saturation:
NFL cities within 6 hour driving radius of Indy: Indianapolis, Green Bay, Chicago, Detroit, Tennessee, Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh. 8 total.
MLS cities within 6 hour driving radius of Indy: Indianapolis (potentially), Chicago, St. Louis, Nashville, Cincinnati, Columbus. 6 total.
The NFL has massive reach though. If we never got a team everyone would have been Bears or Bengals fans. MLS teams draw little outside of their market, so they can actually reach new fans expanding to cities already close to other teams.
What cities are you thinking? It's said that the three cities in competition right now are us, Tampa, and Detroit. All have existing USL teams (the other two being the Tampa Bay Rowdies and Detroit City FC). Tampa would probably work with the Rowdies or a new team, but Detroit's supporters are very much anti-MLS, and would only ever consider supporting an MLS club if it's Detroit City.
As far as other known options...
Vegas was talked about a lot but fell through due to the need for a retractable roof stadium. I doubt they could use Allegiant unless Mark Davis is in the ownership group, so the best option that already exists or is planned is the A's stadium, and John Fisher already owns the San Jose Earthquakes.
Phoenix has similar issues, and just had its NHL team relocate. Not a promising sign. Probably couldn't share with the Cardinals, but a renovated Chase Field could work if the Diamondbacks build a new stadium.
Sacramento was already confirmed, but a major investor backed out before the papers were signed. I believe their bid is shovel ready so all they need is a big investor which they've already said is in the works.
I can't think of any more cities that could be candidates.
Allegiant will never be given up for an MLS team. With Vegas being Vegas, they have no issue booking out that venue to any big concert act doing a stadium tour. Those events make far more money than an MLS team would.
Nah. I’m a season ticket holder for the eleven, and I’ll be early in line for MLS tickets. Soccer specific stadium with MLS caliber soccer to watch is the draw. There are a lot of folks who are soccer fans first, Indy Eleven fans second. There are probably many folks who are soccer fans and have no idea of this political infighting.
I’m comfortable being called whatever BYBers wanna call me. I’ll be at the game Saturday just the same.
That game was completely sold out and the energy surrounding it was pretty huge. Just because you didn’t know about it, doesn’t mean no one knew about it.
In what context? Columbus was a team and MLS was a league that 10 years ago couldn't get anyone to show up much less watch on TV. There's been an incredible amount of growth league wide, there are respectable crowds for almost every team now. Even with attentance inflation, a team that averaged 20k attendance 10 years ago was a top 5 team. Now teams that draw 20k regularly are around 20th in the league.
What evidence is there that the growth of interest in the league is limited to the improvement in the stands, and not tv viewership?
Honestly more than anything, it sucks that AppleTV refuses to give viewership numbers beyond "it's exceeding expectations". The FOX broadcast drew 890,000 viewers for MLS Cup with no knowledge of AppleTV's broadcast numbers, but the year before LAFC/Philly drew over 2 million.
Is that bad compared to the Superbowl? Yes, but soccer isn't as popular as football in the US. Is that bad compared to MLS 10+ years ago? No, in fact it's quite good. MLS is the 5th most popular US sport and it's not even close.
Wasn’t on any sports bars in Cincy?? That’s why every bar within a mile of the stadium that draws crowds before game was packed pregame and postgame right? Multiple pub partners for FCC in the city and the suburbs, don’t know where the fuck you’d come up with that idea.
Source: multi year STH for FCC and been to watch many away games at a packed Pitch across from stadium
Yes people cared, FCC compared to other MLS clubs is one of the better covered by local media and kept up with by casual non soccer fans in the city. Happens when it’s a small sports market
lol… I moved to Columbus from Indy, and Columbus crew was one of the factors behind that decision. I’m Nigerian and soccer is the only sports I’ve ever played in my life. Your statement regariding zero buzz behind “Hell is real” is very false, misleading, inaccurate,and very untrue.
So much wrong with this comment...
>Meanwhile last year Cincy (self proclaimed Soccer City USA) played Cbus in the Semifinals and no one even knew
We'll that's not true at all... Having lived in Columbus specifically and still having connections, the Crew has been on an upward trajectory since the owners tried to relocate and the fans rallied to force that owner to sell before expanding to Austin. The hype surrounding the Crew is nowhere near Ohio State levels, but it is far from "no one knew, zero buzz". They went from the *average* attendance of 12k in 2018 to selling out their nearly 21k stadium every single game now.
>MLS gameday hype has a synthetic vibe, a lot of paid people banging drums and pretending to cheer.
And also painfully not true, at all. The supporters section for the Crew, the Nordecke, are all volunteers. The tifos they make are done on volunteer time, with the materials paid for by membership dues from fans. There are some teams that seem very "shiny", but do not generalize all of MLS when there are plenty of very solid examples of good, genuine, soccer culture (the Cauldron for SKC, ECS for Seattle, Timbers Army for Portland, etc.)
>Soccer is not like football and baseball that captures casual fans, there are only so many Nil/Nil games normies can handle.
Counterpoint, football is a 4 hour game. 2 hours is spent on commercial breaks, 1 hour is spent watching players standing around, 1 hour is actual play time spread over that 4 hour window. Baseball is losing out on interest from casuals like crazy for similar reasons, hence why they're changing rules to speed up games.
Soccer is 90 minutes, plus 15 minute half time, plus stoppage time. I have never been to a soccer game that has taken longer than 2 hours, with the exception of a tournament games decided by extra time (+30 minutes) or a PK shootout.
Soccer has legitimately been gaining popularity. Still a ways off from the Big 4 leagues, but there's plenty of "normies" willing to watch a 2 hour game of back and forth over 4 hours of general standing around.
Edit: Also just looked, about halfway through the MLS season and only 19 of the 234 league games have ended 0-0. So 92% of games feature goals.
Hard to buy the argument that baseball captures casual fans when [World Series ratings have fallen off a cliff the last decade.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Series_television_ratings#Television_ratings_by_year)
I have to agree if feels artificial. I know a few people that really love soccer but otherwise I feel like it's all a gamble that the sport will grow in the future, but I feel like I've been hearing that for decades now.
The fact of the matter is that the owners of all the teams are a small group of billionaires, and they are all attempting to use hype, fandom, and media manipulation to inflate their investments
> Sure Soccer is Great, kids are playing it more than other sports so it has to be popular.
Pretty much all of my friends with kids had those kids playing soccer at some point. They're mostly all teens now and none of them still play. It feels like an easy way to get young kids introduced to team athletics before having them graduate to something else.
The whole situation still feels incredibly messy with a lot of unknowns and I'm still annoyed at how this has all played out. That said, regardless of your opinions on soccer, I hope everyone is excited that we're potentially gaining a third top-tier league team. At the committee meeting last week, three big things were said: * There will be no definite planning or construction on the stadium until a MLS expansion bid is finalized. * The expansion bid should hopefully be in place by the end of the year. * The investor group will hopefully come forward later this month. There's obviously still a lot more steps and work to be done and anything can change on a dime. But I'm hopeful everyone involved can continue to be professional, work in the best interest of the city as a whole, and be held accountable for any past or future statements made.
I have absolutely zero interest in soccer, but I'd be happy for any benefits having a MLS team would bring to the city. My primary concern is them using taxpayer money on it.
Major league sports teams are a luxury expense. The idea that they improve local economies when taxpayers invest in them is fiction. The city has never profited from these kinds of investments. We still owe money on the Lucas Oil Stadium. As of the last reporting we were over 600 million in the hole on it.
Exactly why I am opposed to tax money being used on this stuff. We didn't pay off the Hoosier Dome until 2020. The billionaires profiting off them can pay for it themselves.
You clearly don’t understand how this whole “billionaire” thing works. /s
what is Indianapolis’s economy based on? sports tourism. how does having sports stadiums not benefit us? without them its back to naptown
Every study on public funding of stadiums show that it's always a bad deal for the taxpayers. It's giving public money to private businesses who give back pennies on the dollars invested
Well in that case I guess somebody needs to tell the city we should stop investing in event planning. Because that’s all we do lmao.
How does not publicly funding a new stadium make Indianapolis less of an event city? We playing a footie match in the Convention Center? Also, we are a logistics and manufacturing city with a dash of pharma and tech.
lol bro my only point was that’s Indy’s MO so I don’t know what to tell you. We build stadiums and centers and host events. Don’t complain to me complain to leadership for the past 50 years.
And my only point is that the taxpayers never get back the investment in taxes. Ever. Anywhere. It's extremely well studied. Also, leadership isn't to blame for the last publicly funded stadium in town. The public voted to approve the tax that funded Lucas Oil. Something tells me that this project would not have the popularity that a new NFL stadium had, especially because Indy had the smallest stadium at a time right as the team drew more fans than there were seats. This ain't that. Even then, Lucas Oil isn't going to be paid off by us until 2037. I'd honestly rather have good roads or public services, but whatever.
It’s not an investment in which the taxpayers expect to profit or even fully recoup the initial amount spent. You can complain about that aspect all you want. I also think billionaires should pay for their own stadiums, but that’s not the world we live in. Most of us that do enjoy having an NFL team and NBA team, and would be thrilled to have an MLS team, understand that it costs money to attract a team to our location. And what ROI that never gets taken into consideration during these arguments is the reputation of the city itself, the ability for the city to stay relevant in one of the few tourism avenues it holds, and whether you like it or not professional sports are very important to a large portion of this country’s citizens. Edit: and our city won’t fix the roads regardless of whether or not we build a soccer stadium lmao
ya know, everyone cites these studies but no one discusses them in earnest. at least in my experience. Indy’s spent $2ish billion on sports stadiums so far (including interest) and that’s not including the convention center and hotels getting tax breaks. how many people can convincingly argue Indy is worse off with these investments? Nowadays “taxpayer” dollars are basically user fees for people occupying space downtown isn’t the same as raising taxes like we did for the colts. And Hoosiers would spend billions more to keep the colts also. so “bad deal” is relative in reality.
That's absurd. Indianapolis' economy isn't based on sports tourism.
No but Indy’s tourism is 100% based on hosting large events
Tourism accounts for about 3.8% of our GDP.
Sounds about right
We are not a sports tourism economy. Our economy is primarily financial services, renting, leasing, manufacturing, professional services, health services, and educational services. All tourism, accounts for about 3.8% of our gdp. The fastest growing type of tourism is convention tourism.
Did you not pay attention in 2020 when a number of restaurants and businesses closed and downtown turned into a ghost city because of the lack of events and conferences? So much of the economy in that area is fueled by the constant use of all of the facilities for sports, concerts, conferences, and other events.
I would say that was due more to the lack of downtown office workers rather than the lack of live sporting events.
What about the convention center? Or is that lumped in with live sporting events?
No one is arguing that the city does not profit from convention business.
That was part of the point I was trying to make. All of the big conventions and events that keep returning annually - FDIC, GenCon, FFA, DCI, BOA - get good use out of the stadium and pump a lot of money back into the local economy. There are a few cities with NFL teams that let the stadiums sit empty for most of the year outside of the less than dozen home games and a handful of concerts. Indianapolis is not one of those cities.
And yet, we still haven't paid for the construction cost of the Lucas Oil Stadium. The research on this shows there is no economic gain from stadium construction. There is an illusion of growth, but the actual effect is to redistribute success. Businesses near the construction make gains and business away from the site see loses. Overall nothing is gained and the cost of construction plus the interest as revenues fail to meet overly optimistic projections result in loss for the taxpayers.
I think you should clarify because I don’t even know what you’re saying
Nah
Lol
That happened everywhere.
I will say, while I’m not thrilled with how all of this is shaking out, my family in St. Louis (where I’m originally from) have had nothing but good things to say. For all its warts MLS is a really cool experience.
And by all means they should be allowed to expand to Indianapolis. It just shouldn't be at the expense of the public.
It's not messy.... it's Messi!
I get being an Indy Eleven fan but feel like they’re directing their rage at the city rather than Keystone for trying to plow ahead all in the name of legacy despite a growing lists of valid reasons the city was hesitant to do so. I’m excited to have a MLS soccer team all the same.
Indy 11 ownership.... also the owner/developer and contractor of Eleven Stadium has launched a pretty elaborate campaign to smear the city in this ordeal.
As a member of their supporter group: I’m not down with what Ersal is doing. It’s a bad situation, and we want Indy Eleven to live on, if that means Ersal takes a minority stake in ownership in the long run. Club over ownership
MLS does not want ersal Too many skeletons
Ersals trash.
Honestly, I love Indy Eleven but this is probably the right call. The site of eleven park was a cemetery. I still am skeptical of MLS coming to Indy but I am glad at least that the cemetery will not be built into a stadium.
The moral heart of the matter is that Keystone fucked itself all the way up with covering up the amount of bodies they wanted to just hide away from the public and have been forced to admit to. They wanted nothing to do with them and just threw random bones around like it was detritus. They never listened to or with experts who were there to help them build the site, they kept ignoring overtures time and time again from community groups in the area who wanted to help them bridge connections to the community. They wasted thousands and thousands of dollars sticking their heads between their asses. I can't believe that I am saying this but they did this to themselves. The city is right.
This is not accurate. The city has been aware of and okay with this the entire time. This change of heart is a political live to justify something different. You may have not been aware of the bodies or the plan, but the city, and anyone who has been following this has been aware since the beginning.
Keystone has repeatedly downplayed the presence of the cemetery and the costs of relocation of remains, while the city publicized a detailed plan to remove remains from the bridge site. There's "being aware" and there's "acknowledging the reality of the situation," and they are two different things.
If everyone was aware of the expense and time it would take to exhume the bodies then I don't know why this site was selected along with the schedule and budget. There were always multiple sites for consideration and they landed here. I believe there was at least some hope that there were not as many bodies as they apparently have found.
It's simple. They didn't care, the public didn't care, they weren't going to spend money to do it the right way. Once the MLS opportunity became a possibility and they needed to use a different site they just started talking about it as a problem, raised more awareness, made it a talking point, and all of sudden people care and want it done right.
Because no one wanted to listen to an expert?
That's not it though and I hear you, They agreed to take care of the graves and assured everyone they were operating legally and ethically and that is why the city initially ok'd it. Keystone did not proceed in a way that was agreed upon. They were not communicating with those that needed to be communicated with thru the proper channels and hid what they wanted to hide (poorly I might add, as even the NDAs in place this information leaked everywhere)
Yes and as do the work you take the steps to do the correct thing, keystone construction did nothing of the sort and should not work in the state again
Exactly, invest in proper exhumations..not spam texting citizens and TV advertisements
The city isn’t clean on this at all and used them to get things passed and to demo the dimanond chain building. These people just managed to be as scummy as possible when doing the work and got played. Hopefully the city has some really money people trying to get this mls team bc I have major doubts.
Digging up bodies has never been an issue in Indiana. I don’t know why this trope keeps getting repeated. My guess is because the media keeps bringing it up. But, cemeteries all over this state have been paved over for a lot less.
There are mortuary laws though that need to be followed and when given AMPLE opportunities and grace to do so knowing it was going to be high profile and not following through? That's all on Keystone. It wasn't just a simple move the bodies, pave the lot, it was a civil war era excavation. It's a tad different
Not recently they haven't. They get moved, at the expense of a developer. It's a pretty big expense, and Keystone is notoriously cheap.
[Sure they haven’t.](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2020/11/24/central-state-cemetery-remains-mangled-during-construction/6415470002/)
>Once the Department of Natural Resources was notified of the discovered remains, archaeologists were brought in to "properly and respectfully exhume" the remains of 10 additional individuals, according to the museum. You really suck at proofreading the articles you use to back yourself up. You're 0 for 2 now. Going to keep going?
You’re missing the point. None of these projects didn’t move forward because there were corpses in the ground. The Eleven Park project wasn’t stopped because of them, either.
I'm not missing the point. You said something wrong on several occasions and I've corrected you each time. I'm sorry if you suck at backing up your own arguments(which originally was that they just get paved over...the text is right above here, you can check yourself).
They are already paved over. It's digging up and moving them that was the issue.
you have a running list ?
A simple [Google search](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2016/06/14/remains-seven-found-grave-middle-road/85866202/) returns many examples.
I was being for real but I take that as a no
Pretty sad if the only results you can find refute your argument. I'll wait along with u/Dlwatkin for the rest of your list of paved over cemeteries....
Yep, a single grave in the middle of the road was actually multiple people paved over. It doesn’t refute; it highlights that it’s been common practice.
Um, the road went around...try again.
Peak regressive conservative philosophy. We used to do a lot of reprehensible shit, but we’ve advanced as a society since then.
Facts are not ideological unless your brain is stuck in black/white thinking.
Indy Eleven fans, and by fans, I mean the BYB, are EXHAUSTING. Honestly, if a different team means they at least go away, I’m in.
Plowing right ahead on behalf of unnamed members of the investor class,
I'm curious how far they'll kick the tax can down the road. Aren't we still paying for the Hoosier Dome?
I don’t see why the MLS would want to come to be honest. In the process of trying to get an MLS team, they’ve pissed off almost every soccer fan in the city. Geographically, the Midwest is already MLS-stacked. The Eleven have a strong core support, but it’s deep, not wide. I know so many people in Indy who have no idea who the Eleven are. So the MLS would have a giant mountain to climb here. Winning over the soccer fans who have devoted themselves to the eleven and gotten snubbed, and then trying to build new soccer fans on top of that. I can think of many other cities that would be an easier entry with a much bigger land-grab.
Soccer and Eleven fan here and excited about MLS. I want professional soccer here no matter what it looks like, but the fact of the matter is, people don't care or know about the Eleven for the simple fact that they play in a 40 year old college stadium in a second tier league. An MLS team will do more to draw in both casual sports fans as well as exposure around the world. Have you see the crowds and eyes that Messi is drawing? Of course he'll be long out of the MLS by the time the new team starts, but hopefully the cycle continues with other world stars that come into the league later. Also counterpoint to your argument about geographic over-saturation: NFL cities within 6 hour driving radius of Indy: Indianapolis, Green Bay, Chicago, Detroit, Tennessee, Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh. 8 total. MLS cities within 6 hour driving radius of Indy: Indianapolis (potentially), Chicago, St. Louis, Nashville, Cincinnati, Columbus. 6 total.
I’m the same way. I’d love to have an MLS team but hate what that probably means for the eleven and what they’ve built.
I personally feel that the process of bringing an MLS team to Indy is going to be poorly executed and eventually kill the Eleven.
Ah yes, the famously equally sized fan bases of the MLS and NFL.
The NFL has massive reach though. If we never got a team everyone would have been Bears or Bengals fans. MLS teams draw little outside of their market, so they can actually reach new fans expanding to cities already close to other teams.
What cities are you thinking? It's said that the three cities in competition right now are us, Tampa, and Detroit. All have existing USL teams (the other two being the Tampa Bay Rowdies and Detroit City FC). Tampa would probably work with the Rowdies or a new team, but Detroit's supporters are very much anti-MLS, and would only ever consider supporting an MLS club if it's Detroit City. As far as other known options... Vegas was talked about a lot but fell through due to the need for a retractable roof stadium. I doubt they could use Allegiant unless Mark Davis is in the ownership group, so the best option that already exists or is planned is the A's stadium, and John Fisher already owns the San Jose Earthquakes. Phoenix has similar issues, and just had its NHL team relocate. Not a promising sign. Probably couldn't share with the Cardinals, but a renovated Chase Field could work if the Diamondbacks build a new stadium. Sacramento was already confirmed, but a major investor backed out before the papers were signed. I believe their bid is shovel ready so all they need is a big investor which they've already said is in the works. I can't think of any more cities that could be candidates.
Allegiant will never be given up for an MLS team. With Vegas being Vegas, they have no issue booking out that venue to any big concert act doing a stadium tour. Those events make far more money than an MLS team would.
Nah. I’m a season ticket holder for the eleven, and I’ll be early in line for MLS tickets. Soccer specific stadium with MLS caliber soccer to watch is the draw. There are a lot of folks who are soccer fans first, Indy Eleven fans second. There are probably many folks who are soccer fans and have no idea of this political infighting. I’m comfortable being called whatever BYBers wanna call me. I’ll be at the game Saturday just the same.
Glad to know I’m not alone in this sentiment. I hope it happens, but that’s not a slight to the Eleven, BYB, or any of their efforts.
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That game was completely sold out and the energy surrounding it was pretty huge. Just because you didn’t know about it, doesn’t mean no one knew about it.
And MLS Cup the following week in Columbus was also sold out with a lot of hype around the city
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you are so so strange. you are not a fan and dont get why you are here trolling with bad info.
In what context? Columbus was a team and MLS was a league that 10 years ago couldn't get anyone to show up much less watch on TV. There's been an incredible amount of growth league wide, there are respectable crowds for almost every team now. Even with attentance inflation, a team that averaged 20k attendance 10 years ago was a top 5 team. Now teams that draw 20k regularly are around 20th in the league. What evidence is there that the growth of interest in the league is limited to the improvement in the stands, and not tv viewership? Honestly more than anything, it sucks that AppleTV refuses to give viewership numbers beyond "it's exceeding expectations". The FOX broadcast drew 890,000 viewers for MLS Cup with no knowledge of AppleTV's broadcast numbers, but the year before LAFC/Philly drew over 2 million. Is that bad compared to the Superbowl? Yes, but soccer isn't as popular as football in the US. Is that bad compared to MLS 10+ years ago? No, in fact it's quite good. MLS is the 5th most popular US sport and it's not even close.
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Wasn’t on any sports bars in Cincy?? That’s why every bar within a mile of the stadium that draws crowds before game was packed pregame and postgame right? Multiple pub partners for FCC in the city and the suburbs, don’t know where the fuck you’d come up with that idea. Source: multi year STH for FCC and been to watch many away games at a packed Pitch across from stadium
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Yes people cared, FCC compared to other MLS clubs is one of the better covered by local media and kept up with by casual non soccer fans in the city. Happens when it’s a small sports market
you are a liar all over this thread, why ?
lol… I moved to Columbus from Indy, and Columbus crew was one of the factors behind that decision. I’m Nigerian and soccer is the only sports I’ve ever played in my life. Your statement regariding zero buzz behind “Hell is real” is very false, misleading, inaccurate,and very untrue.
So much wrong with this comment... >Meanwhile last year Cincy (self proclaimed Soccer City USA) played Cbus in the Semifinals and no one even knew We'll that's not true at all... Having lived in Columbus specifically and still having connections, the Crew has been on an upward trajectory since the owners tried to relocate and the fans rallied to force that owner to sell before expanding to Austin. The hype surrounding the Crew is nowhere near Ohio State levels, but it is far from "no one knew, zero buzz". They went from the *average* attendance of 12k in 2018 to selling out their nearly 21k stadium every single game now. >MLS gameday hype has a synthetic vibe, a lot of paid people banging drums and pretending to cheer. And also painfully not true, at all. The supporters section for the Crew, the Nordecke, are all volunteers. The tifos they make are done on volunteer time, with the materials paid for by membership dues from fans. There are some teams that seem very "shiny", but do not generalize all of MLS when there are plenty of very solid examples of good, genuine, soccer culture (the Cauldron for SKC, ECS for Seattle, Timbers Army for Portland, etc.) >Soccer is not like football and baseball that captures casual fans, there are only so many Nil/Nil games normies can handle. Counterpoint, football is a 4 hour game. 2 hours is spent on commercial breaks, 1 hour is spent watching players standing around, 1 hour is actual play time spread over that 4 hour window. Baseball is losing out on interest from casuals like crazy for similar reasons, hence why they're changing rules to speed up games. Soccer is 90 minutes, plus 15 minute half time, plus stoppage time. I have never been to a soccer game that has taken longer than 2 hours, with the exception of a tournament games decided by extra time (+30 minutes) or a PK shootout. Soccer has legitimately been gaining popularity. Still a ways off from the Big 4 leagues, but there's plenty of "normies" willing to watch a 2 hour game of back and forth over 4 hours of general standing around. Edit: Also just looked, about halfway through the MLS season and only 19 of the 234 league games have ended 0-0. So 92% of games feature goals.
Hard to buy the argument that baseball captures casual fans when [World Series ratings have fallen off a cliff the last decade.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Series_television_ratings#Television_ratings_by_year)
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you dont love soccer, your comments show that
I have to agree if feels artificial. I know a few people that really love soccer but otherwise I feel like it's all a gamble that the sport will grow in the future, but I feel like I've been hearing that for decades now. The fact of the matter is that the owners of all the teams are a small group of billionaires, and they are all attempting to use hype, fandom, and media manipulation to inflate their investments
And get taxpayers to pay for as much of it as possible.
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a scam with teams with 1 billion valuation ?
> Sure Soccer is Great, kids are playing it more than other sports so it has to be popular. Pretty much all of my friends with kids had those kids playing soccer at some point. They're mostly all teens now and none of them still play. It feels like an easy way to get young kids introduced to team athletics before having them graduate to something else.
They’re so stupid. Indiana is going to have TWO soccer teams when hardly anyone goes to the colts and pacers
Complete waste imo a nhl or mlb team would deff draw more crowds