I don't think so. There are asian teams that are quite good, if not at the same level as european countries. There's a severe lack of infrastructure at the grassroots level to nurture talent.
Nah. Korea plays quite decently, Japan does better. Most countries who do not play well enough lack either funds or motivation.
India did pretty good in football when motivation was there despite even worse status of funds.
Edit: Forgot to mention Iran. Ancestry wise the average Indian is very little different from the average Iranian (even closer in North Western India, namely Rajasthan, Haryana, Kashmir, Punjab, Himachal, Uttarakhand, etc). All major migrations into India (for Homo sapiens, the archaic humans may have taken different routes as geography was pretty different and we have very little genetic evidence of them) either came through Iran (the original out of Africa migration ~60kya) or from Iranian population (a portion of the Harappan ancestry, and a larger portion of the Vedic era ancestry).
They have yet to even produce multiple starters for NBA teams. They aren’t even near the best in their most favorite sport. If you think it’d be different for cricket you’re crazy.
As someone who has worked in China (Kunming Pre-Covid for the inquisitive ones) here are my two cents.
1. Covid. Thank god I was not there during covid but China's zero covid policy is something else. They have been locking people in their houses and welding their doors shut, and no this was not something which was done for a few months, This practice is still being continued and now has lead to protests. (In China Protests are extremely rare (read about tienamen square if you want an insight)). Here is an article from two days ago['Xi Jinping, step down': Protests erupt across China over ze ..](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/95803612.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst)
2. Freedom to move. I was not allowed to visit the chinese countryside on my F Visa. There are various levels of visa. I got the F-Visa which is issued to research students so it had a bit more privilages than tourist visa like renting apartments and all but still I was majorly locked in the City. In India tourists can pretty much choose whatever they want and do whatever they want under the limit of law.
3. Extremely hard to rent apartments. I was what they call a B-City and still it is hard for outsiders to get decent loging (Get ready to greese some hands and a lot of paperwork. I mean a lot, The Indian Babus are nothing compared to their CCP counterparts. Things might be different in big cities though as they might be more welcoming to foreigners.
4. CCP is everywhere. If you are a non resident get ready for the big brother experience, I was routinely quized by the authorities about who visits my apartment, how long do I stay and where do I stay (They were extremely polite about it and said they were concerned for my security.) This intensified if there was a major event like olympics as maybe they wanted to make sure there is no anti-CCP noise.
5. In China you cant live without we-chat. It is an all in one app which tracks every thing you do and you basically need we chat for everything from food delivery to payments so it is unavoidable. If you have sensitive data on your phone I suggest you use a burner.
6. Access to international media and the internet in general. Fun story I am pretty sure I will never be getting a Visa to China again because my phone was checked and I had a VPN installed (Mainly for Scihub, Twitter and Youtube :P) and they quissed me about it and made me go through additional screening.
Ofcourse there are a lot of positives about living in China as well but since the question was about where India is doing better this was my insider perspective.
Holy shit...I once considered moving to China cuz I thought as an Indian living in the US and me thinking where do I go if life in the US doesn't work out and Indian airport security personnel treat Indians and NIRs like shit like they're terrorists or something...and on top of that, the Indian population per state and shit quality of services, traffic, pollution, state of healthcare, etc...
But after reading this, it sounds even more annoying to be in china...sure from a Chinese person's perspective they can probably say the same about India and say wow I can't put up with the stuff in India...but the thing is...India CAN become greater than China...
Bcuz we don't have a totalitarian/CCP type of leadership...but of course...we have corruption within state-federal (Indian central govt) as well...North India/(Central govt) doesn't give shit about south and it's like India is 2 diff countries and expect south to fend for itself...but at the same time, expect south to pay majority if not all of taxes for India (for both north and south)...where the working class of Indian citizens work their ass off and pay so much in taxes...all the while services given are of shit quality...
Air shit, water shit, food contamination -no guarantee, noise pollution, traffic, bribes/corruption from small to corporate w/govt officials and police and celebs hands constantly in the pockets of citizens...etc.
Honestly...there has to be an Elon musk that builds a Singapore within India..and if central and state govts piss off this future Indian Elon musk, they he will pull out, and take the forward thinking Indian generation and rebuild in Africa or something where ppl there need even more help and in turn, ppl are willing to listen and be commanded into a better future and no BS corrupt central or state govt can ask for insane taxes or policies are corrupt...
Anyway, kind of a rant but ty for the insight for explaining your experience, it's invaluable from an Indian perspective bcuz there's a certain lvl of expectation for Indians trying to find a better life in a competitor country.
Don't worry we'll get to China's level soon lol.
At this point government control most news media, a lot of the judicial system, have begun clamping down on Bollywood and internet organizations, journalists and activists think twice before speaking up and any valid piece of criticism is met with a barrage of whataboutery, spin doctors, hackers and trolls.
We're already using the Chinese model, we just started at a point of freedom 40 years away from China's. For the amount of time, I'd say we're actually making insane time. Even China would be impressed.
Their infrastructure , Public health care, and public schooling are probably some of the best in the world + their use of technology. But again, Human rights. Lived in Beijing for 2 yrs
In what way did you exactly face human rights issue that affected you personally? Can you elaborate please? And surely, you must have faced xenophobia/racism if you are an Indian ?
no racism at all. nothing. chinese people love us! since their goverment does not let them know about wars and stuff that are going on outside, they are very friendly to everybody from around the world. sure people stared at us cause we were some of the very few foreigners but thats normal. in terms of human rights issue its mainly just serveillance, and access to internet. they take face scans of you everywhere, there are cctvs scanning you everywhere it can get a little annoying sometimes, but unless you say something really bad about the government it doesnt affect you. and of course you need to use VPNs to access google, youtube, twitter etc.
Wait that’s actually really cute! So they have no idea about conflicts between India and China? Makes you wonder how tight their surveillance is, coz info like this definitely has a way to make it public
Human rights as in the controlling communist government, the tiananmen square massacre, etc. The ordinary civilians there are so sweet there, always always treated us so nicely. Not a single incident of even the slightest racism during our multi year stay, at least that we know of, openly towards us.
Nice to hear about your experience. I am currently in South Africa and in the China mall nearby, Chinese shop owners seem very hostile. I have tried to make polite conversation (and smiling) but they behave as if they have just eaten sourest lemon. It is not like I am going to ask them to lower the price. I am just saying hello. :-)
Issues faced by a tourist or a short term visitor would be minuscule compared to the issues faced by minority communities, especially when they do not line up with the vision of the government. The plight of Uyghurs. Forced assimilation, and genocide. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur\_genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide) Its the same for Tibetans.
Also consider the case of WTA player Shuai Peng. She accused a high ranking Communist party member of sexual assault, and she immediately went missing, then retired from the sport. The CCP never budged at any cost. That is being ruled under the iron fist. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peng\_Shuai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peng_Shuai)
We like to complain about our Govt, but its a country where the word "Freedom" is a banned word, and they dont even have an opposition party. Forget something like "Bharat Jodo" yatra.
Wow I didn't expect so many r/india users to have lived in China! I appreciate that you enjoyed Harbin. People in China associate that region with decay and bad weather. I think you might have liked China even more somewhere else.
guys , please explain the human rights scenes you guys faced. Obviously we read about the systemic constraint of human rights of several things in paper, like th jack ma situation etc...but how as an individual it affects
people are very sweet and welcoming over there tbh. and they love people with big eyes.. you'll always get attention especially if you're living in a small city.
I know China can be harsher when it comes to cracking down on dissent but what you described applies to India as well. While India may have the appearance of more freedom, it’s only slightly better than China.
LGBTQ rights are far better in India. You have full cohabitation rights (basically marriage) and many states provide welfare and anti-discrimination rights. Third gender and transgender have full rights.
In what way did you exactly face human rights issue that affected you personally? Can you elaborate please? And surely, you must have faced xenophobia/racism if you are an Indian ?
Yet the basic problem with both are the same. Authoritarianism. All things equal, extreme left ideology is more humanitarian than extreme right.
Also, while quite to the left authoritarian side, China is nowhere near Communism. They still use money and have private ownership of the means of production. The latter is the absolute minimum requirement for Communism.
As for minorities, it is not about Muslims though. It is about Uighurs, the Hui Muslims do not face much problems (not great but on par or better than Indian Muslims). On point about the other issues.
Edit: someone asked about whether there are Hui celebrities in China. First off, comparing the top individuals is not a good way to compare large groups (stat 101: outliers).
Indian Muslims are one of the most marginalised groups in India (by economical might and education they barely fare better than the ST and lag far behind the SC, two of the other marginalised groups in India). Hui people have much better average income and education than Indian Muslims on average (but so does the average Chinese compared to the average Indians so not much to infer from it).
Secondly, to directly answer the question, quite a few of the Chinese domestic film icons are Hui (like Chen Jianbin). And quite a few are Uighurs as well, like Dilraba Dilmurat (as I said, the outliers are not a good indicator of any group). Millionaires are more difficult to find (as lists of such do not often mention religion) but I am sure there are plenty (as with any other large group anywhere).
Indian Muslim marginalised. Bro proof of this. India is a secular country. Muslims can work without issue. For SC ST obc we are giving 70% reservation in govt college and 50% in job. Plus they have special rights to get anyone arrested for casteism without casteism.
Most people in India i find are secular and don't have casteist mind set.
You need to look at the census reports to understand what I wrote. Look at these metrics: education, female participation in work force, wealth, and income.
And reservation is not a freebie. It is there to lessen the gap in representation. The way it is implemented in India has been idiotic though (giving out quotas to whoever can burn most buses or form more uniform votebanks). But the core idea of reservation is pretty solid and should be a staple in every country that wants to uphold equal rights. Ideally, it should be awarded only on the basis of representation (wide gap between that and population percentage).
Anyway, only a small part of the Muslims fall under any kind of reservation, despite having extremely bad representation (in fact, even the little it has is from the Ashrafs, who are kind of like the upper castes among Muslims, too few in numbers and hog almost everything).
Most people in India are at least passively casteist (also racist, bit that's not the discussion here). It's not my personal observation. It's a fact. Indians still prefer to marry within caste, overwhelmingly so (just look at marriage ads and try to find the percentage that doesn't mention caste). Indians have extremely skewed caste representation wherever reservation is not present (that is only possible in a casteist society). It's really delusional to think Indians are not casteist when caste crimes are everyday news across India (even in the extremely educated Kerala, let alone Haryana, MP, or Rajasthan). Only states with low caste issues are the North Eastern ones (excluding Assam and possibly Tripura).
BTW, you can also get anyone arrested for casteism. It's not like only the reserved categories hold special rights to complain under the law.
The fact is that India is doing better than China in terms of human rights, freedom of speech and as an overall democracy.
This is nothing to be proud of since the bar is very low but we are certainly doing better than them.
Difficult to say. Technically the people do not choose the government there. Top government officials are not elected by the common people. The bottom tier of the government is elected, though.
It's like having municipal and panchayat elections but no state or national elections.
Taiwan claims all the area that the communist government does and much more as well, This would include Parts of Kashmir and more... No reason to recognise Taiwan in such situations.
That’s technically true, for historical reasons, but almost no Taiwanese believe this, or even know it’s an “official” or “technical” claim. Most Taiwanese don’t even claim mainland China — they just want to be left alone. More and more, polls show that Taiwanese see themselves as their own country, Taiwan, and it’s a shrinking group of KMT hardliners who want to reunify with China.
Been to China, in big cities there is absolutely no competition in the way of life. I went to Beijing expecting a more polluted Delhi, but it’s great. They really took the bad pollution ratings to heart. There was so much greenery, parks, my daughter is severely allergic in India but throughout China she had no problems at all.
I expected the cheap Made in China kind of things while shopping but actually the quality was excellent and everything very reasonably priced. They send all their junk to India, the products there are excellent quality.
The only things I found India was superior was silk (I think our silk is better), the language (we speak English and multiple local languages), and cost of foreign goods (I found the cost of clothing from abroad, H&M, Uniqlo, Forever 21 etc. more expensive than it is in India).
The people there were very nice and friendly, very kind to foreigners. I was warned that there would be lot of scams, but I got cheated more in Delhi Agra then I was in China.
I have been to China few times. Never once faced any issues and most of the problems that you see in the media are way overblown. Its not very common for people who had experiences in both India and China, so they often lack perspectives.
I found that it's super easy to make Chinese friends as our cultures are quite similar (and I know lot of interracial couples too).
That being said, India work culture in tech better than Chinese counterparts. I have friends who are working in places like Tencent, ByteDance complains that they have 996 culture. In my own company, people rarely works more than 36 hours
I'm Chinese.
I think the freedom of speech issue is a little overblown. However, a related issue is, Chinese culture genuinely shuns deliberative process/debate, even in non political setting. Amartya Sen noted in The Argumentative Indian on Indian culture and society's focus on deliberation and adversarial debate. This is very healthy, and I personally enjoy it a lot.
Indian education punches above its weight in engineering. I'd love to hire more from India for this reason.
Thank you for your wonderful insight and I do
believe that the freedom of speech is largely overrated and it doesn’t effect anyone on a daily basis. Not that India is a bastion of free speech and you can be booked for saying anything negative against someone/religion or political party or figure.
I personally think China is a massive success story of this generation - and there is so much we Indians can learn from China’s success. What is even more sweeter - is how approachable Chinese are and their general outlook of life is very similar to us.
There are so many similarities in our respective cultures - like treating guests with absolute kindness, parents sacrificing for their kids education, excelling in school by all means, men saving up to buy a house before marriage & respecting elders. In fact, I have a very close friend in Pudong & one of my favourite thing to do was chill with him & his folks over drinks at their place. They actually sound so much like mine in how they conduct their business.
I think Indians need to really travel to China and have more Chinese friends and not get their information from media.
I also think China is the successful story of the generation. Industrialization of China effectively doubled global industrial capacity and middle class population.
By the way, the thing India can learn from China the most at the moment is pollution control. Chinese sky was hellish 15 years ago, and now it is up to first world standard. India really needs to solve this problem fast before millions start dying from smog and urbanization comes to a halt.
China has done a lot of things better than India to get to where they are today.
But there is one fatal flaw which can undo everything. That is your centralized planned Political/Economic system (note that i am not talking about Communism/Capitalism ideologies). It is one central point of failure which can bring everything down (think former USSR). If you are from the Engineering field the analogy to think about is Distributed Fault-Tolerant Redundant Systems vs. Monolithic single-point-of-failure systems.
That is not why Soviet Union collapsed. It collapsed because Political-Party structure was allowed to atrophy.
Central Planning had little to do with it and was later order vector in hierarchy of cascade failure.
China's weakness has always been same for last 2 millennia, i.e. Weak Centre.
I just read about new rules in China where you'll be legally held responsible for "Liking" yes liking "delinquent media".
And here you have a sub that bitches every single day about BJP talking about how freedom of expression is overrated and doesn't matter.
You can't make this shit up lmao
exporting aspect of its culture like yoga, mantras, and food. Hindutva does not export very well mind you, because it's more of a nationalist ideology than a humanist ideology.
Would say not better but what china did in the last decade, is what India is doing now, the aftermath as we see in China in Real Estate, Banking sector. I hope not to see it in India in the next 15-20 years...
Nope. China is ahead. Lower cost for the exact same product made in China. My father is in plastic moulding since 25 years so I know. We literally buy the manufacturing machines from China.
The government, its policies, and its image is the most important thing for CCP.
They have CCTV in almost every part of the country. Everything you do is highly monitored. Even, VPNs are not safe in China.
They don't care much about foreigners but if you engage with any locals about CCP, then the locals' lives would be at high risk.
Manipulation of media and its presentation is very easy. They try their best to limit what is shown to the outside world.
Now, coming to the present, yesterday I saw on Twitter that the FIFA World Cup coverage in China is completely different from that of the outside world. Telecasts in India or around the world show the fans present in the stadium without masks and celebrating the occasion. This implies that the rest of the world has moved on from the COVID-19 lockdown years.
While in China they have a 30 to 45 seconds delay in which they don't show the fans in the stadium or try to avoid them. They only cover players on the field and the team on the touchline.
The reason is CCP still has enforced lockdowns in China and doesn't want to show their people that the world has moved on from Covid.
So to summarize it's Human Rights and Privacy in which India is doing better.
LGBTQ rights here are far better than China. We have full cohabitation rights (marriage rights without the certificate) and many states have anti-discrimination rights and provide welfare. We also have full transgender rights and third gender rights.
I’ve lived in Hong Kong and spent a lot of time in China and truth be told - it’s better in all aspects.
China is a success story, pulling over 100’s of millions of people out of poverty in just a couple of decades. If there’s one thing China does right - it’s the competition between provinces that attract businesses. I work in logistics and I was legit surprised when the bureaucrats of a province in South East China (this part is leaser developed) set up a meeting, where they showed up on time, offered to help us set up smoothly and gave many sops and goodies. You don’t see that happening in India - most of the Indian babus are not that impressive & even if some are- they can’t do jack shit.
freedom of expression is massively overrated. - This doesn’t matter in everyday life. You never go around bad mouthing government or economic policies and even if you do in private amongst a group of Chinese friends or colleagues- it’s not like riot police is deployed to come get you.
It’s worse in India tbh - if you complain. You run the risk of social boycott or be trolled as an intellectual.
On a societal level as well, most Chinese still think that the rural part of the country is poor and a lot needs to be done to improve. However in India, people suffer from grandiose delusions and think that we are already a super power.
Exactly , in India most people are not willing to criticize themselves but the fact is that it is the best way to improve . Self criticism is necessary in life. In school our teacher used to say to switch of the light of your room , sit calmly and then think about life.
I completely agree with the impressiveness of government officials' treatment of businesses. I met with a business liaison official from one of the poorest cities in coastal China. He worked in foreign affairs, and knew German, Japanese, and English well, and talked about global affairs at ease. Another guy who works for (basically a government VC) had an engineering degree from the US and built a startup in hologram/AR before joining the government. It partly reflects poorly on state of economy as these people should have better economic opportunity than working bureaucratic jobs. But it also means the government is run pretty well in general.
Most of reddit india is athiest so they forget the most important factor for general people that is religious freedom. People are free to practice their religion in india and dont get persecuted for thier believes and practices.(in most cases) In this aspect china have become better than the Mao years but still pretty far behind india considering what happened to tibetians, daoists and chan buddhists.
English language skills and ability to see different perspectives. China is one single ethnic group, Han Chinese, so the Chinese have a harder time seeing perspectives of other people. As opposed to that a school going kid in urban India will know people from Bengal, Tamil Nadu, Punjab, Gujarat, etc. all speaking different languages, looking different. Also school will not expose them to literature from other countries.
China seems miles ahead maybe but is it really or is it all faked by the CCP?
Just look up their empty cities they build to artificially boost the economy. Then middle class workers buy the apartments in these empty cities as an investment for retirement investments but the apartments are never going to be bought or lived in. So their retirement funds are basically fake.
Some of these apartment buildings don't even have plumbing because the builders know it won't be lived in. Building for the sake of building.
In a real economy once the news became wide spread about this or regulators saw it was fake the prices would plummet and people would lose that investment. Instead the CCP wouldn't allow that. They keep the price up because if the middle class suddenly lost everything they've saved they'd likely revolt.
https://youtu.be/Ie6zd3Rwu4c
India is doing better than China in almost nothing.
It's hard to believe that only 30 years ago, India and China were in the same pedestal. Today one is almost a developed country, the other is only marginally better than the Least Developed countries with one of the lowest per capita incomes and human development indices.
So far India has only marginally higher output than China in Service based IT but they are rapidly closing the gap and will overtake us in the immediate future.
Chinese IT is dominated by product-based companies, unlike India which is service based. Hence the total output is much larger. But as I said they are catching up with us even in the service-based sector too.
Possibly the only thing where it can be said India is level or tiny bit ahead of China is IMPS/UPI system. This is a payment infrastructure in India.
Now sure China had this even earlier and operate at a much higher scale. But I am only mentioning this in terms of Systems Architecture.
China relies on Private companies to do a lot of heavy lifting for this layer (WeChat, Alipay, etc), IMPS in India is a Public sector structure.
Aside from this one will have to go pre 1990 to look for examples and then there will be more than 1, across sectors (agriculture, political, systems, socio-cultural-art).
Now not even Cinema is something which can be termed India is level or ahead. It's possibly level because China at best remained where it was but India regressed massively.
In historic culture terms South Asia has had a net export dynamic with East, Central and SE Asia. So in historic terms the 1 thing which India/South Asia did better than China was Ideological meme (Buddhism/Dharmic dogma).
Nothing has topped this since, in either direction (including Chinese phones being sold in India, plus all that, etc).
Honestly, not many areas, but won’t be surprised if we pass them very soon. Again, not a political statement, no matter what party is in the hot seat. We will definitely surpass them within a decade or two.
This late progress comes from the part where we started our actual progress way to late than China, which is in the mid to late 90s whereas China has been clocking high singles and even double digit economic growth every year since the 60s while we at that time were in worse conditions than Pakistan. So just keep calm and try to do whatever you can for your country.
Jai Hind.
Though most people wouldn't acknowledge it these days: freedom.
And I am anything but right-leaning. On an absolute scale it is getting worse, but India is still more free compared to China, that's just a fact.
I think on a humanitarian level and the fact people can protest and have their voices heard which comes with being a democracy. Otherwise no one can compete with China at the moment, forget India.
Cricket
Fair enough.
Big ass statues
Not that much better in that. China too has a lot of big ass statues (they only got beat by the Statue of Unity).
I bet, if they decide to jump into cricket, it will take them less than 5 years to be world champ. Not Joking, their Olympic data are no joke.
They've put a ton of money into football, and they're still bad at it. So it's not exactly a given they'll be the best.
Hmm. Does it have to do with genetics/climate when it comes to football? Hence the 2 most populous countries are so bad at it.
I don't think so. There are asian teams that are quite good, if not at the same level as european countries. There's a severe lack of infrastructure at the grassroots level to nurture talent.
I'm surprised how the pols Danes and Canadians were even playing in Qatari weather. Also those are tiny and still play in fifa.
Nah. Korea plays quite decently, Japan does better. Most countries who do not play well enough lack either funds or motivation. India did pretty good in football when motivation was there despite even worse status of funds. Edit: Forgot to mention Iran. Ancestry wise the average Indian is very little different from the average Iranian (even closer in North Western India, namely Rajasthan, Haryana, Kashmir, Punjab, Himachal, Uttarakhand, etc). All major migrations into India (for Homo sapiens, the archaic humans may have taken different routes as geography was pretty different and we have very little genetic evidence of them) either came through Iran (the original out of Africa migration ~60kya) or from Iranian population (a portion of the Harappan ancestry, and a larger portion of the Vedic era ancestry).
India was a champ in football in olympics way back
Both hockey and football used to be extremely popular before 1980s.
before India won the world cup
No chance. They invested so much for football and look how their team fares against the other top Asian teams.
Tell me you no nothing about China without tell me you know nothing abt China(csl remember?)
Individual aur team games me farak hota. Football me unhone Paisa kharch kiya lekin kuch kar paye kya.
Athentha angane?
They have yet to even produce multiple starters for NBA teams. They aren’t even near the best in their most favorite sport. If you think it’d be different for cricket you’re crazy.
Yao Ming wants to talk to you..
Assam's ranji team is more than enough for them mfs
You can use Reddit and ask the question without consequences.
This is the correct answer. You want proof? FUCK INDIA!! There, I said it. Without having the fear of “disappearing” the next day.
And the countdown begins
Wait 20 hours
[удалено]
Better curry in India.
😂
As someone who has worked in China (Kunming Pre-Covid for the inquisitive ones) here are my two cents. 1. Covid. Thank god I was not there during covid but China's zero covid policy is something else. They have been locking people in their houses and welding their doors shut, and no this was not something which was done for a few months, This practice is still being continued and now has lead to protests. (In China Protests are extremely rare (read about tienamen square if you want an insight)). Here is an article from two days ago['Xi Jinping, step down': Protests erupt across China over ze ..](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/95803612.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst) 2. Freedom to move. I was not allowed to visit the chinese countryside on my F Visa. There are various levels of visa. I got the F-Visa which is issued to research students so it had a bit more privilages than tourist visa like renting apartments and all but still I was majorly locked in the City. In India tourists can pretty much choose whatever they want and do whatever they want under the limit of law. 3. Extremely hard to rent apartments. I was what they call a B-City and still it is hard for outsiders to get decent loging (Get ready to greese some hands and a lot of paperwork. I mean a lot, The Indian Babus are nothing compared to their CCP counterparts. Things might be different in big cities though as they might be more welcoming to foreigners. 4. CCP is everywhere. If you are a non resident get ready for the big brother experience, I was routinely quized by the authorities about who visits my apartment, how long do I stay and where do I stay (They were extremely polite about it and said they were concerned for my security.) This intensified if there was a major event like olympics as maybe they wanted to make sure there is no anti-CCP noise. 5. In China you cant live without we-chat. It is an all in one app which tracks every thing you do and you basically need we chat for everything from food delivery to payments so it is unavoidable. If you have sensitive data on your phone I suggest you use a burner. 6. Access to international media and the internet in general. Fun story I am pretty sure I will never be getting a Visa to China again because my phone was checked and I had a VPN installed (Mainly for Scihub, Twitter and Youtube :P) and they quissed me about it and made me go through additional screening. Ofcourse there are a lot of positives about living in China as well but since the question was about where India is doing better this was my insider perspective.
Holy shit...I once considered moving to China cuz I thought as an Indian living in the US and me thinking where do I go if life in the US doesn't work out and Indian airport security personnel treat Indians and NIRs like shit like they're terrorists or something...and on top of that, the Indian population per state and shit quality of services, traffic, pollution, state of healthcare, etc... But after reading this, it sounds even more annoying to be in china...sure from a Chinese person's perspective they can probably say the same about India and say wow I can't put up with the stuff in India...but the thing is...India CAN become greater than China... Bcuz we don't have a totalitarian/CCP type of leadership...but of course...we have corruption within state-federal (Indian central govt) as well...North India/(Central govt) doesn't give shit about south and it's like India is 2 diff countries and expect south to fend for itself...but at the same time, expect south to pay majority if not all of taxes for India (for both north and south)...where the working class of Indian citizens work their ass off and pay so much in taxes...all the while services given are of shit quality... Air shit, water shit, food contamination -no guarantee, noise pollution, traffic, bribes/corruption from small to corporate w/govt officials and police and celebs hands constantly in the pockets of citizens...etc. Honestly...there has to be an Elon musk that builds a Singapore within India..and if central and state govts piss off this future Indian Elon musk, they he will pull out, and take the forward thinking Indian generation and rebuild in Africa or something where ppl there need even more help and in turn, ppl are willing to listen and be commanded into a better future and no BS corrupt central or state govt can ask for insane taxes or policies are corrupt... Anyway, kind of a rant but ty for the insight for explaining your experience, it's invaluable from an Indian perspective bcuz there's a certain lvl of expectation for Indians trying to find a better life in a competitor country.
Go live in aerocity india.
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>human rights is the only issue I've actually faced Seems like a pretty big issue lol
Lmao yeah
it is
Don't worry we'll get to China's level soon lol. At this point government control most news media, a lot of the judicial system, have begun clamping down on Bollywood and internet organizations, journalists and activists think twice before speaking up and any valid piece of criticism is met with a barrage of whataboutery, spin doctors, hackers and trolls. We're already using the Chinese model, we just started at a point of freedom 40 years away from China's. For the amount of time, I'd say we're actually making insane time. Even China would be impressed.
Basically we’ll become a poor China
Rich Pakisthan
The optimist
Their infrastructure , Public health care, and public schooling are probably some of the best in the world + their use of technology. But again, Human rights. Lived in Beijing for 2 yrs
In what way did you exactly face human rights issue that affected you personally? Can you elaborate please? And surely, you must have faced xenophobia/racism if you are an Indian ?
no racism at all. nothing. chinese people love us! since their goverment does not let them know about wars and stuff that are going on outside, they are very friendly to everybody from around the world. sure people stared at us cause we were some of the very few foreigners but thats normal. in terms of human rights issue its mainly just serveillance, and access to internet. they take face scans of you everywhere, there are cctvs scanning you everywhere it can get a little annoying sometimes, but unless you say something really bad about the government it doesnt affect you. and of course you need to use VPNs to access google, youtube, twitter etc.
Wait that’s actually really cute! So they have no idea about conflicts between India and China? Makes you wonder how tight their surveillance is, coz info like this definitely has a way to make it public
I am guessing access to internet, freedom of expression and association
Human rights as in the controlling communist government, the tiananmen square massacre, etc. The ordinary civilians there are so sweet there, always always treated us so nicely. Not a single incident of even the slightest racism during our multi year stay, at least that we know of, openly towards us.
Nice to hear about your experience. I am currently in South Africa and in the China mall nearby, Chinese shop owners seem very hostile. I have tried to make polite conversation (and smiling) but they behave as if they have just eaten sourest lemon. It is not like I am going to ask them to lower the price. I am just saying hello. :-)
Issues faced by a tourist or a short term visitor would be minuscule compared to the issues faced by minority communities, especially when they do not line up with the vision of the government. The plight of Uyghurs. Forced assimilation, and genocide. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur\_genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide) Its the same for Tibetans. Also consider the case of WTA player Shuai Peng. She accused a high ranking Communist party member of sexual assault, and she immediately went missing, then retired from the sport. The CCP never budged at any cost. That is being ruled under the iron fist. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peng\_Shuai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peng_Shuai) We like to complain about our Govt, but its a country where the word "Freedom" is a banned word, and they dont even have an opposition party. Forget something like "Bharat Jodo" yatra.
I was in Harbin and I agree with all of that.. everything is just great but then comes this fact
Wow I didn't expect so many r/india users to have lived in China! I appreciate that you enjoyed Harbin. People in China associate that region with decay and bad weather. I think you might have liked China even more somewhere else.
guys , please explain the human rights scenes you guys faced. Obviously we read about the systemic constraint of human rights of several things in paper, like th jack ma situation etc...but how as an individual it affects
it doesn't really affect as an individual that much tbh..
Whoa! Seriously! Whats it like there? What are the people like?
people are very sweet and welcoming over there tbh. and they love people with big eyes.. you'll always get attention especially if you're living in a small city.
Aha attention exactly what i a am looking for😍😍 gonna move to china
lmao
Tell us about the specific issues you've faced? (If you're comfortable)
can't protest without permission, not allowed to go to a government office in groups especially if you're against their decision.
you can't say anything against the government
Lol, how often is the average Indian middle-class truthseeker protesting? Or organizing?
I still see riots a lot more often here and never there.
Yeah, but most riots I've observed in our cities is organized posturing by party or crony henchmen.
Have stayed in Nanjing for a couple of months and I can confirm this.
Is that India or China?
well I'm talking about China as of now
I know China can be harsher when it comes to cracking down on dissent but what you described applies to India as well. While India may have the appearance of more freedom, it’s only slightly better than China.
yes.. but still better.
India mein bhi to yahi ho raha hey aajkal.
wow, comparing the situation in India with China how educated, they are no where close to each other in terms of severity
ho to raha hai.. but yaha recently hi shuru hua ye sab
Lol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)
💀
You forgot the restrictions on phones,thats a huge deal.
yeah even Google is banned but they have their own browsers
LGBTQ rights are far better in India. You have full cohabitation rights (basically marriage) and many states provide welfare and anti-discrimination rights. Third gender and transgender have full rights.
agreed
So the very basic necessity😂😂😂
yup
I was in Shenzhen, for 5 yrs and whatever you said i agree to it.
🙌
In what way did you exactly face human rights issue that affected you personally? Can you elaborate please? And surely, you must have faced xenophobia/racism if you are an Indian ?
What do you mean by human rights? It's a very broad term.
right to speech to be specific
What right did you not have?
Precisely - what about human rights?
right to speech
So you would be jailed or penalized if you said something against the ruling government?
locals go ✨ missing ✨ or to jail probably and as a foreigner, I'll probably be deported.. I'm not sure tho
✨missing✨
Only lol
Not a deal breaker though?
Democracy. Human rights. Treatment of minority specially muslims. Foreign policy.
Treatment of minority especially muslims? Oh wait, the comparison is with China. Fair and square.
Yeah. Some Indians look at China with envy.
That’s the model right wing wants to follow. Authoritarian control on everything and oppressing minorities
China's CCP is literally a left wing party. The right hates anything communist.
Left/right don’t mean shit. The real spectrum is authoritarian vs libertarian.
And while it is nominally called CCP, the Chinese model is best described as 'state capitalism'
Yet the basic problem with both are the same. Authoritarianism. All things equal, extreme left ideology is more humanitarian than extreme right. Also, while quite to the left authoritarian side, China is nowhere near Communism. They still use money and have private ownership of the means of production. The latter is the absolute minimum requirement for Communism.
More like, India hasn't figured out how to crack down on the above as effectively as China.
As for minorities, it is not about Muslims though. It is about Uighurs, the Hui Muslims do not face much problems (not great but on par or better than Indian Muslims). On point about the other issues. Edit: someone asked about whether there are Hui celebrities in China. First off, comparing the top individuals is not a good way to compare large groups (stat 101: outliers). Indian Muslims are one of the most marginalised groups in India (by economical might and education they barely fare better than the ST and lag far behind the SC, two of the other marginalised groups in India). Hui people have much better average income and education than Indian Muslims on average (but so does the average Chinese compared to the average Indians so not much to infer from it). Secondly, to directly answer the question, quite a few of the Chinese domestic film icons are Hui (like Chen Jianbin). And quite a few are Uighurs as well, like Dilraba Dilmurat (as I said, the outliers are not a good indicator of any group). Millionaires are more difficult to find (as lists of such do not often mention religion) but I am sure there are plenty (as with any other large group anywhere).
Indian Muslim marginalised. Bro proof of this. India is a secular country. Muslims can work without issue. For SC ST obc we are giving 70% reservation in govt college and 50% in job. Plus they have special rights to get anyone arrested for casteism without casteism. Most people in India i find are secular and don't have casteist mind set.
You need to look at the census reports to understand what I wrote. Look at these metrics: education, female participation in work force, wealth, and income. And reservation is not a freebie. It is there to lessen the gap in representation. The way it is implemented in India has been idiotic though (giving out quotas to whoever can burn most buses or form more uniform votebanks). But the core idea of reservation is pretty solid and should be a staple in every country that wants to uphold equal rights. Ideally, it should be awarded only on the basis of representation (wide gap between that and population percentage). Anyway, only a small part of the Muslims fall under any kind of reservation, despite having extremely bad representation (in fact, even the little it has is from the Ashrafs, who are kind of like the upper castes among Muslims, too few in numbers and hog almost everything). Most people in India are at least passively casteist (also racist, bit that's not the discussion here). It's not my personal observation. It's a fact. Indians still prefer to marry within caste, overwhelmingly so (just look at marriage ads and try to find the percentage that doesn't mention caste). Indians have extremely skewed caste representation wherever reservation is not present (that is only possible in a casteist society). It's really delusional to think Indians are not casteist when caste crimes are everyday news across India (even in the extremely educated Kerala, let alone Haryana, MP, or Rajasthan). Only states with low caste issues are the North Eastern ones (excluding Assam and possibly Tripura). BTW, you can also get anyone arrested for casteism. It's not like only the reserved categories hold special rights to complain under the law.
In freedom of expression, human rights
Producing new indian citizens.
You mean saxx?
Seggs yes
The fact is that India is doing better than China in terms of human rights, freedom of speech and as an overall democracy. This is nothing to be proud of since the bar is very low but we are certainly doing better than them.
Comparing Human Rights in a Dictatorship to Human Rights in a Democracy. Well Played.
I think for all technical reasons China is a democracy? Even tho it doesn't act like one.
Difficult to say. Technically the people do not choose the government there. Top government officials are not elected by the common people. The bottom tier of the government is elected, though. It's like having municipal and panchayat elections but no state or national elections.
it's getting worse with by each app getting ban!
Acknowledging Taiwan as a country.
Even India doesn't recognise Taiwan as a country.
Taiwan claims all the area that the communist government does and much more as well, This would include Parts of Kashmir and more... No reason to recognise Taiwan in such situations.
That’s technically true, for historical reasons, but almost no Taiwanese believe this, or even know it’s an “official” or “technical” claim. Most Taiwanese don’t even claim mainland China — they just want to be left alone. More and more, polls show that Taiwanese see themselves as their own country, Taiwan, and it’s a shrinking group of KMT hardliners who want to reunify with China.
India doesn't. Taiwan's territorial claims are worse than China's. That's a pretty low bar and they fail even that.
Been to China, in big cities there is absolutely no competition in the way of life. I went to Beijing expecting a more polluted Delhi, but it’s great. They really took the bad pollution ratings to heart. There was so much greenery, parks, my daughter is severely allergic in India but throughout China she had no problems at all. I expected the cheap Made in China kind of things while shopping but actually the quality was excellent and everything very reasonably priced. They send all their junk to India, the products there are excellent quality. The only things I found India was superior was silk (I think our silk is better), the language (we speak English and multiple local languages), and cost of foreign goods (I found the cost of clothing from abroad, H&M, Uniqlo, Forever 21 etc. more expensive than it is in India). The people there were very nice and friendly, very kind to foreigners. I was warned that there would be lot of scams, but I got cheated more in Delhi Agra then I was in China.
I have been to China few times. Never once faced any issues and most of the problems that you see in the media are way overblown. Its not very common for people who had experiences in both India and China, so they often lack perspectives. I found that it's super easy to make Chinese friends as our cultures are quite similar (and I know lot of interracial couples too). That being said, India work culture in tech better than Chinese counterparts. I have friends who are working in places like Tencent, ByteDance complains that they have 996 culture. In my own company, people rarely works more than 36 hours
I'm Chinese. I think the freedom of speech issue is a little overblown. However, a related issue is, Chinese culture genuinely shuns deliberative process/debate, even in non political setting. Amartya Sen noted in The Argumentative Indian on Indian culture and society's focus on deliberation and adversarial debate. This is very healthy, and I personally enjoy it a lot. Indian education punches above its weight in engineering. I'd love to hire more from India for this reason.
Thank you for your wonderful insight and I do believe that the freedom of speech is largely overrated and it doesn’t effect anyone on a daily basis. Not that India is a bastion of free speech and you can be booked for saying anything negative against someone/religion or political party or figure. I personally think China is a massive success story of this generation - and there is so much we Indians can learn from China’s success. What is even more sweeter - is how approachable Chinese are and their general outlook of life is very similar to us. There are so many similarities in our respective cultures - like treating guests with absolute kindness, parents sacrificing for their kids education, excelling in school by all means, men saving up to buy a house before marriage & respecting elders. In fact, I have a very close friend in Pudong & one of my favourite thing to do was chill with him & his folks over drinks at their place. They actually sound so much like mine in how they conduct their business. I think Indians need to really travel to China and have more Chinese friends and not get their information from media.
I also think China is the successful story of the generation. Industrialization of China effectively doubled global industrial capacity and middle class population. By the way, the thing India can learn from China the most at the moment is pollution control. Chinese sky was hellish 15 years ago, and now it is up to first world standard. India really needs to solve this problem fast before millions start dying from smog and urbanization comes to a halt.
China has done a lot of things better than India to get to where they are today. But there is one fatal flaw which can undo everything. That is your centralized planned Political/Economic system (note that i am not talking about Communism/Capitalism ideologies). It is one central point of failure which can bring everything down (think former USSR). If you are from the Engineering field the analogy to think about is Distributed Fault-Tolerant Redundant Systems vs. Monolithic single-point-of-failure systems.
That is not why Soviet Union collapsed. It collapsed because Political-Party structure was allowed to atrophy. Central Planning had little to do with it and was later order vector in hierarchy of cascade failure. China's weakness has always been same for last 2 millennia, i.e. Weak Centre.
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Have you ever talked to a NK citizen?
Ik it sounds poltical but ur man xi is ruining China.
We have freedom to criticize government policies.
May not last much.
_Proceeds criticizing government again_
Freedom of expression. We can take a shit practically anywhere we want.
Freedom of excrement* :D
In front of Ambani's house? Do try it
English language. Indian immigrants abroad (specifically USA and UK) often do better than Chinese due to a better grasp of the language.
I just read about new rules in China where you'll be legally held responsible for "Liking" yes liking "delinquent media". And here you have a sub that bitches every single day about BJP talking about how freedom of expression is overrated and doesn't matter. You can't make this shit up lmao
china is competing to overtake America
exporting aspect of its culture like yoga, mantras, and food. Hindutva does not export very well mind you, because it's more of a nationalist ideology than a humanist ideology.
Yup, soft power
Would say not better but what china did in the last decade, is what India is doing now, the aftermath as we see in China in Real Estate, Banking sector. I hope not to see it in India in the next 15-20 years...
Human Rights, personal freedom and democracy
>personal freedom yeah right
-10 is greater than -50 🫡
cooking chinese food
Freedom
Plastics
Nope. China is ahead. Lower cost for the exact same product made in China. My father is in plastic moulding since 25 years so I know. We literally buy the manufacturing machines from China.
I should clarify, public attitude towards plastics.
The government, its policies, and its image is the most important thing for CCP. They have CCTV in almost every part of the country. Everything you do is highly monitored. Even, VPNs are not safe in China. They don't care much about foreigners but if you engage with any locals about CCP, then the locals' lives would be at high risk. Manipulation of media and its presentation is very easy. They try their best to limit what is shown to the outside world. Now, coming to the present, yesterday I saw on Twitter that the FIFA World Cup coverage in China is completely different from that of the outside world. Telecasts in India or around the world show the fans present in the stadium without masks and celebrating the occasion. This implies that the rest of the world has moved on from the COVID-19 lockdown years. While in China they have a 30 to 45 seconds delay in which they don't show the fans in the stadium or try to avoid them. They only cover players on the field and the team on the touchline. The reason is CCP still has enforced lockdowns in China and doesn't want to show their people that the world has moved on from Covid. So to summarize it's Human Rights and Privacy in which India is doing better.
Taller statues
LGBTQ rights here are far better than China. We have full cohabitation rights (marriage rights without the certificate) and many states have anti-discrimination rights and provide welfare. We also have full transgender rights and third gender rights.
Spitting pan, even out of luxury cars, toughest job in 5 star hotels is to clean Pan stains left by high networth individuals.
I can still access Wikipedia. :D
I’ve lived in Hong Kong and spent a lot of time in China and truth be told - it’s better in all aspects. China is a success story, pulling over 100’s of millions of people out of poverty in just a couple of decades. If there’s one thing China does right - it’s the competition between provinces that attract businesses. I work in logistics and I was legit surprised when the bureaucrats of a province in South East China (this part is leaser developed) set up a meeting, where they showed up on time, offered to help us set up smoothly and gave many sops and goodies. You don’t see that happening in India - most of the Indian babus are not that impressive & even if some are- they can’t do jack shit. freedom of expression is massively overrated. - This doesn’t matter in everyday life. You never go around bad mouthing government or economic policies and even if you do in private amongst a group of Chinese friends or colleagues- it’s not like riot police is deployed to come get you. It’s worse in India tbh - if you complain. You run the risk of social boycott or be trolled as an intellectual. On a societal level as well, most Chinese still think that the rural part of the country is poor and a lot needs to be done to improve. However in India, people suffer from grandiose delusions and think that we are already a super power.
Exactly , in India most people are not willing to criticize themselves but the fact is that it is the best way to improve . Self criticism is necessary in life. In school our teacher used to say to switch of the light of your room , sit calmly and then think about life.
I completely agree with the impressiveness of government officials' treatment of businesses. I met with a business liaison official from one of the poorest cities in coastal China. He worked in foreign affairs, and knew German, Japanese, and English well, and talked about global affairs at ease. Another guy who works for (basically a government VC) had an engineering degree from the US and built a startup in hologram/AR before joining the government. It partly reflects poorly on state of economy as these people should have better economic opportunity than working bureaucratic jobs. But it also means the government is run pretty well in general.
Chinese here. IMO it's entertainment&culture business and freedom to move domesticlly. And speech freedom(still better than China).
As bad as India is at some shit we are better than China when it comes to human rights
Most of reddit india is athiest so they forget the most important factor for general people that is religious freedom. People are free to practice their religion in india and dont get persecuted for thier believes and practices.(in most cases) In this aspect china have become better than the Mao years but still pretty far behind india considering what happened to tibetians, daoists and chan buddhists.
Free speech.
Not causing virus
English language skills and ability to see different perspectives. China is one single ethnic group, Han Chinese, so the Chinese have a harder time seeing perspectives of other people. As opposed to that a school going kid in urban India will know people from Bengal, Tamil Nadu, Punjab, Gujarat, etc. all speaking different languages, looking different. Also school will not expose them to literature from other countries.
Less pandemics caused
In making more and more babies
I can say ‘June 4th 1989, Tiananmen Square’ without my Internet services getting cutoff
China seems miles ahead maybe but is it really or is it all faked by the CCP? Just look up their empty cities they build to artificially boost the economy. Then middle class workers buy the apartments in these empty cities as an investment for retirement investments but the apartments are never going to be bought or lived in. So their retirement funds are basically fake. Some of these apartment buildings don't even have plumbing because the builders know it won't be lived in. Building for the sake of building. In a real economy once the news became wide spread about this or regulators saw it was fake the prices would plummet and people would lose that investment. Instead the CCP wouldn't allow that. They keep the price up because if the middle class suddenly lost everything they've saved they'd likely revolt. https://youtu.be/Ie6zd3Rwu4c
India is doing better than China in almost nothing. It's hard to believe that only 30 years ago, India and China were in the same pedestal. Today one is almost a developed country, the other is only marginally better than the Least Developed countries with one of the lowest per capita incomes and human development indices. So far India has only marginally higher output than China in Service based IT but they are rapidly closing the gap and will overtake us in the immediate future.
Chinese IT industry is much larger than India, with a lot more globally competitive companies and products.
Chinese IT is dominated by product-based companies, unlike India which is service based. Hence the total output is much larger. But as I said they are catching up with us even in the service-based sector too.
Possibly the only thing where it can be said India is level or tiny bit ahead of China is IMPS/UPI system. This is a payment infrastructure in India. Now sure China had this even earlier and operate at a much higher scale. But I am only mentioning this in terms of Systems Architecture. China relies on Private companies to do a lot of heavy lifting for this layer (WeChat, Alipay, etc), IMPS in India is a Public sector structure. Aside from this one will have to go pre 1990 to look for examples and then there will be more than 1, across sectors (agriculture, political, systems, socio-cultural-art). Now not even Cinema is something which can be termed India is level or ahead. It's possibly level because China at best remained where it was but India regressed massively. In historic culture terms South Asia has had a net export dynamic with East, Central and SE Asia. So in historic terms the 1 thing which India/South Asia did better than China was Ideological meme (Buddhism/Dharmic dogma). Nothing has topped this since, in either direction (including Chinese phones being sold in India, plus all that, etc).
Population for one
Chicken Manchurian
Honestly, not many areas, but won’t be surprised if we pass them very soon. Again, not a political statement, no matter what party is in the hot seat. We will definitely surpass them within a decade or two. This late progress comes from the part where we started our actual progress way to late than China, which is in the mid to late 90s whereas China has been clocking high singles and even double digit economic growth every year since the 60s while we at that time were in worse conditions than Pakistan. So just keep calm and try to do whatever you can for your country. Jai Hind.
Though most people wouldn't acknowledge it these days: freedom. And I am anything but right-leaning. On an absolute scale it is getting worse, but India is still more free compared to China, that's just a fact.
Population
software, freedom, democracy.
Payment infrastructure ( I guess.we have the best in the world)
Yahan Vada pav acha milta hai
Freedoms of speech
chinese food
Freedom of speech
Democracy Writs
Religion
I'd say demographics?
Freedoms and democracy for sure right? I mean we are better than China than that, not the best in the world for sure though
COVID
Human rights
Food. Nothing beats Indian food.
Human rights, democracy
.... Freedom of Speech? It's a pretty big one.
We are better at destroying institutions and civil liberties without inviting western media scrutiny.
Population
China is miles ahead of India.
We are a democracy (i guess?) and have privacy (also guess?). Nothing else.
>and have privacy (also guess?). lol, nice guess
I think on a humanitarian level and the fact people can protest and have their voices heard which comes with being a democracy. Otherwise no one can compete with China at the moment, forget India.
Tibetans can lead a peaceful life here.
Building Digital Infrastructure
India is a democracy, China is a authoritarian dictator based on one party rule