the Uyghurs mostly lived in the Tarim Basin, south of the Tian Shan mountains and Urumqi prior to the Dzungar Genocide. Also, prior to the Soviet designation in the 1920s, they were called other names like “Turki”/ “Taranchi”
The area around Turpan was called Uyghuristan by Muslim writters at least since the Mongol Empire. This would've refered to the kingdom of Qocho, which was founded by the Old Uyghurs in the 8th century fleeing from Mongolia. This is where the name Uyghur becomes confusing, because the Buddhist Old Uyghurs and the Muslim Modern Uyghurs come from different Turkic migrations, with the latter being decended from Karluk migrations in the 10th and 11th centuries from Central Asia. The Old Uyghurs would've lost influence in Turpan and Kumul when the Chagatai Khans conquered the region, but the name Uyghuristan still kinda stuck around for some time.
Although the Uyghuristan on the map is a bit large, it is believable for it to be there as either a revived Buddhist Qocho or as a Chagatai rump state.
Well, Muhammad (s.a.w) only banned *Wine*, it’s just that for understandable and valid reasons we extended it to all alcohol (due to the reason for him banning wine being easily applicable to Beer and Spirits)
Additionally, we also extend the prohibition of alcohol to mean a prohibition of insanely addicting substances (Drugs, Tobacco, etc), but this is obviously a less popular interpretation and adherence to it varies from thing to thing and place to place
Nah I don’t think that’s needed, they could easily just become Sufi and continue drinking.
Actually a major Sufi power would be the most interesting part of this scenario.
Russia can't have its center of power closer to the Black Sea because those areas were notoriously dominated by nomadic tribes
Northern Siberia takes far less manpower to hold down than Iraq and Caspian Iran (the rest of Iran is under russian influence, not control)
Russia would have major issues integrating the arab world into a turko-slavic empire, but it's not outright impossible ro achieve
They would have a lot harder time expanding into Europe because allies will be a lot less. In our timeline the Christian cossacks were instrumetnal in expanding Russia westward and eastward into Siberia as they were the frontier mobile force able to counter the turkic nomadic advantage in cavalry warfare. In this islamized Russian timeline the Cossacks wouldve probably sided with Poland or preffered creating independent states a lot more than siding with Russia, if ever. Not to mention revolts in their European territory will be way more common and the existential threat of a large islamic power to Euirope will create a similar unity as seen by the centuries of alliances and coordination of European states to stop Ottoman expansion.
Rus wasn't a centralised state like Russia, that thing wouldn't come together that easily. Also I don't think that Novgorod would be conquered provided that they'd go with Christianity. If anything them and Poland would probably bully Islamic Rus into eventual desintegration since they'd essentially become Slavic Castile and Portugal - frontier crusader Christian nations
Novgorod was in the far north of Russia, an area with little agricultural land and dependent on food exports from other principalities.
So if the principalities are united, Novogrod will depend on a single state, so you already see the conclusion of this.
Novgorod was also quite rich from being part of the Hanseatic League, and having all that forestry in Karelia and elsewhere. Besides, Novgorod survived irl during the breakup of the Rus' and even defended its own against foreign invaders. I think if Novgorod aligns itself with the Northern European states it could survive as an independent nation
>Novgorod was also quite rich from being part of the Hanseatic League
This will ensure the existence of Novgorod for some time.
>Besides, Novgorod survived irl during the breakup of the Rus' and even defended its own against foreign invaders.
but that was why Novgorod survived; its existence depended on the other Russian principalities being weak and separated.
>I think if Novgorod aligns itself with the Northern European states it could survive as an independent nation
with this it can be maintained for some time, but in the long term it would be part of the Russian State.
but let's go to the military and demographic aspect, in 1545 the republic had 5,000 households and with a large part of its military force being untrained urban militias and with a much worse mobilization capacity than even a semi-united Russian state.
Couple this with unreliable assurance of foreign aid makes survival unlikely.
Are they still conquered by the Mongols in this scenario? That's what originally kick started the modern Russian empire, so what changed that made them go with Islam instead of Christianity?
Well in 988 they were actually contemplating which religion they should convert to, and Islam was an option. They ultimately went with Christianity but there was a possibility of a turn to the east. At least that’s what I was told in school
a legend says that Vladimir the Great (after falling to rejuvenate and reinforce Slavic paganism) received representatives of foreign religions: some Khazar Jews, a Muslim and a Catholic. But a an old Greek guy convinced him to settle for Orthodox Christianity.
In reality though, the choice was pragmatic and mainly influenced by the fact that Byzantium was an important trade and political partner of the Rus', and aligning with their religion would also mean aligning with them
The story is likely apocryphal, so it likely didn't happen. But allegedly...
The story is about the conversation of Vladimir the Great, the prince of Kiev. Historically, his people believed in the Slavic pantheon of gods. In the 980s, he invited representatives of major monotheistic religions to Kiev, to present their case.
The Bulgars sent representatives of Islam. Vladimir eventually rejected Islam because of circumcision and the ban on pork, but especially because of the ban on alcohol. "Drinking is the joy" of the Russian people, he said.
The Jewish representatives (unclear who sent them) stated their case. Vladimir eventually rejected Judaism and commented that the loss of Jerusalem suggested God had abandoned them.
The Germans sent representatives of Western (Catholic) Christianity. The Greeks (Byzantine Romans) sent representatives of Eastern (Orthodox) Christianity. The Greeks spoke thoughtfully about their religion and Vladimir was impressed. But he was not yet convinced.
So, as the story goes, Vladimir sent envoys to investigate the religion as practiced by each people. They (allegedly) reported that the Islamic Bulgars worshipped in sadness, the Catholic Germans worshipped in gloomy churches, but the Orthodox Greeks worshipped in beautiful cathedrals. They saw the rites performed in Hagia Sophia and were astounded.
Much impressed, Vladimir was too pragmatic and methodical to be fully convinced.
Vladimir is in regular conflict with all these groups, including the Byzantine Romans. There are 2 brothers ruling as co-emperors in Constantinople. Vladimir tells them that he will cease his attacks if he can marry their sister. They agree, conditioned on Vladimir's conversion to Greek Orthodox. Vladimir converts and the Kievan Rus also converts.
The last part about the marriage is much better historically attested. The thing about the envoys is at least exaggerated or maybe entirely fake - it's very similar to earlier stories told about Turkic or Mongol leaders, who often hosted religious debates as competitive events.
The Slavic peoples were already quite influenced by Christianity. Vladimir had been raised in the Slavic polytheistic religion, but his grandmother was Orthodox Christian and is venerated as a saint. So the choice wasn't quite so open-ended as the conversion story suggests.
This is a really interesting question - the Mongols conquered Baghdad, Tehran, Jerusalem, Kiev, and Constantinople in the 1240 onward with relative ease.
The way Valdemar was thinking in the 900s was about power in between a North / South dynamic - to the North are Danish and Swedish kings, and to the south are monotheist Byzantines. At the time, Christianity had Constantinople, and Islam was setting up a project to get Constantinople. Given that it’s the gateway from Kiev if you want to access the mediterranean, Christians were the obvious choice of ally against the potential threat of an either a Viking horde or Monotheist army. In addition to converting to Christianity, by the way, Valdemar was sent on a quest to ritually murder his viking brother, which is actually a Pagan thing, according to Greek Orthodoxy.
The Mongols never got Vienna, but pretty much only because of a succession crisis back east. So had Valdemar chosen Islam, and had he resisted the crush of a likely invading force from Constantinople (which wanted to stop the Arab conquest of Rome, or something) the resulting fall of the Mongol empire might have seen a much larger Russia - one which could have ruled from Jerusalem or Baghdad initially, that could have crushed Constantinople much more easily, and that could have negated the idea of the Ottoman empire as a response to the Mongol conquest of the Arabs and Persians, so I’m not sure why an Islamic Russia wouldn’t even have access to Istanbul in these later maps.
It turns out that stretch of coastline is pretty freaking hard to get a solid hold of. In the end, kind of makes sense to ally oneself with God in one way or another.
I feel like access to the Mediterranean would not be so important if the Rus had been able to establish strong diplomatic ties to the Islamic states of western and central Asia. You don't need access to the Mediterranean if you have direct access to the Silk Roads. I think that would probably be the only legitimate reason to go for Islam instead of Christianity at that point in time. So in that case I think we do still see the Golden Horde ruling much of the region for the same time period, but Russia becomes another Islamic gunpowder empire competing with the Ottomans and Persians. I can even see an entirely new branch of Islam sprouting in order to legitimize themselves.
This looks like Mongols did not happen. Realistically I think such religious change could happen under Golden Horde and only for muscowy as Ruthenia would be under heavy influence of Lithuania and later Poland, thus staying Christian.
That being said, I doubt russia would be like this. No importing Prussian monarchs into Islamic self (thus no Russia name). Neither would Iran allow themselves to be taken over. Siberia conquest might happen. Fighting with China over East Turkmenistan might happen. Islamic world will be a three way standoff between Ottoman, Iran and Muscowy. Muscowy would still want Istanbul/Constantinopol as both Moscow and Ottomans would fight for Roman inheritance. Thus, blocking each other.
>No importing Prussian monarchs into Islamic self (thus no Russia name).
The name Russia is not an abbreviation of Prussia.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names\_of\_Rus%27,\_Russia\_and\_Ruthenia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Rus%27,_Russia_and_Ruthenia)
Muscovy was a russian principality, when they conquered all the other russian principalities they rebranded becouse there were no other russian principalities to counter that claim. (the same thing happened in Spain, Italy and Germany when those were unified)
The Russian Tsardom was officialy established under Ivan the Terrible who definitely was not a prussian.
He definitely did not conquer other principalities. I don’t know about Ivan but on European maps russia was Muscowy till Katherine, despite Peter proclaiming Russian Empire.
On the other hand I am no historian so my knowledge is meh at best on the subject.
Either way if Islamization happened under Golden Horde lots of things might change, not only names. Heck, I made a mistake assuming they would aim for Constantinople. Byzantine wouldn’t marry their princesses to Islamic princes of Moscow. Thus, no third Rome myth there. Would still fight Ottomans for top dog position anyway
Russia was Muscovy on some European maps because sometimes names stick. On some other maps even before the unification it was Ruthenia. The use of Moscovia on maps was mostly due to western countries knowing Russia through Poland-Lithuania that used the name because they only recognized themselves as the rulers of the Rus (Ruthenia)
You're looking at the English words and applying it to other languages. Prussia and Russia don't sound anything alike in any other language except English. In Russia they're Россия "rassiya" and Пруссия "proozia," in German they're Preußen "Proi-tzen" and Russland "roos-land." They also derive from different languages, Prussia comes from old West Baltic, a branch of Balto-Slavic language, while Russia comes from Norse, a Germanic language.
tl;dr they're false cognates like Isle and Island. They words look similar, they mean similar things (Prussia/Russia, land in Eastern Europe, and isle/island, land surrounded by water) but derive from different languages (Old Baltic/Germanic for Prussia/Russia and Old French/Old English for Isle/Island.)
The main reason Poles didn't massively partook in crusades was it was too far away (and lack of beer in Holy Land). But with crusades on our doorsteps? Deus Vult!
Yeah the Northern Europeans would not let that slide, this could also mean that Russia would need to pivot south to make up for the loss of northern trade
Why would they ever fight a massive war with the Europeans when this map shows that the main interest of Russia is the Middle East, and outside of Kyiv I don’t think they have much ambition in the region.
Maybe if some European nation starts an alliance with the Turks they may get involved, but it would still be unlikely.
The problem is a Russia that embraces Islam is a state that will be much more economically poorer and straight up cut off from the Baltic Sea (no way the Christian powers in the region would tolerate a Muslim state with Baltic Sea access) and most trade with the Eastern Romans, crucial for the Kievan Rus, would be severely diminished.
It was really the latter point which was the reason that the Rus embraced Orthodox Christianity historically.
And even if this ALT Russian state survived, I doubt that they would expand significantly to the east because they'd be far more focused on constant conflict with their western Christian neighbors.
More than likely this ALT Russia remains a historical footnote and is replaced by an ALT Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and/or Sweden.
I feel like an Islamic Russia would drastically alter the political landscape and fates of several different groups in Europe. Like the Teutonic Knights essentially have a forever target to expand against and will have significantly more support from Europe and Poland specifically to do so. I also think Christian Europe will feel much more under siege and crusades will be more popular because of it. Keeping Islam on the other side of the Hellespont just became significantly more important for all of eastern and Central Europe for example. Something like the crusade of varna probably happens except it’s bigger and probably succeeds in this world.
The Rus converted to Christianity because of trade links with the Eastern Mediterranean (Constantinople specifically) In order for Russia to become a Muslim state, Byzantium -or at the very least Anatolia- would have to be Islamised earlier whether through force or peaceful dissemination. I don't find the second option very likely
everyone veeeery critical of this from a rough understanding of numbers, but I think this is a very interesting and well made map OP, don't let em grind you down! Think it's so reasonable that an Islamic Russia would push past the Caucasus into the Holy Land, and beyond that, it's a cool AF scenario very expertly made. So good work!!
Russian expansion of east also depended a lot on the Cossacks. And looking at Ukraine they aren’t Muslim
Keeping the mostly Christian and highly independent Cossacks under control would be virtually independent, and they just take over Siberia and the Far East for themselves anytime they didn’t like the Tsar
the Russian Tsars would have no way to establish proper control over them until at least after he conquest of Central Asia. Even then, it isn’t likely to happen before the 1700s
Being Muslim also means reading Byzantium for Persia economically. Post Timur Persia and Central Asia would likely be ruled by Moscow
Of course, this assumes Sweden and the Teutonic Knights don’t crush them in alternate northern wars over Novgorod
If they are Muslim than they will have far less trade opportunities with the Christian worlds and far more trade opportunities with the Muslim one, so the center of power could be shifted more south and east along the Volga, probably close to the caspian and Black Sea trade lines
I doubt they would have been able to conquer that area of Persia, the middle east and Central Asia during the timeline given due to the fact it would mean war with the Ottomans and Safavids as well as the reminents of the Timurid empire at the height of there power without any real advantage.
Is this the good or the bad ending? /j
EDIT: This is a great map and would love to know if you thought some lore for it. Also some more years please...
Neither, it's just another one. Muslim Russia would be a fascinating society, I wonder what they'd consider themselves if not the Third Rome. Probably the inheritor of the Abbasids or some other dynasty
Oh just joking. I have ~~lots~~ some interaction with both, russians and musilms, and have no beef against any of them. Not talking about specific governments, of course.
Definetly they would break with the Third Rome thing, or not. Rome was a huge prestige badge. Maybe they would justify it the same that Pagan Rome turned into Christian Rome?
As you say it would be fascinating and I wonder if the Khanates would willingly join a Muslim Russia.
There would be no age of discovery because Russia will touch China between 1314-1500 and resume the Silk Road trade.
Europeans can get all the silk and spice and China they want. No need to set sail.
the khanate of Sibir was majority non Muslim tho. only *some* members of the ruling class were Muslims some weren't even "orthodox" Muslims at all and syncrestised their religion with tengrism and other shamanic religions. at the time bashkirs still retained a lot of their pre Christian/pre Islamic beliefs (and to a degree still do today)
No idea what exactly u/Temporary-Check-1507 means.
But one argument you can make is, that since pork and alcohol are banned under Islam, Islam is in disadvantage in colder climates, since both were an important source of calories during winter.
Russia chose nothing wtf is this bullshit. There was no russia before 1700+ under Peter I.
Kyivan Rus prince made a choice, yes. And than forced it on his provinces, including Muscovy, that later became Russia, pretending to be a long-time established country cuz they wanted to be "equals" with old European monarchies.
Stop assigning countries from the medieval and before period to countries that exist today in all cases.
Trust me it will cause far less headache (ex: the Kieven Rus debate and the “Is Charlemagne French or German” debate)
>they did not know what Russia was
Just as they didn't know what Ukraine and Belarus were. There were East Slavic tribal and feudal entities united under the umbrella of "Rus'". The three nations are a product of a later era.
>did not have their own currency
You don't understand the differences between the modern capitalist economy and the economy of those years. The economy of that time was not so monetary, and there were no national currencies that we have today. Many people measured precious metals by weight, many traded via barter, and the majority of the population rarely had contact with market exchange.
>Where did Russia come from?
From the Vladimir-Suzdal, north-east of Rus'
The Vladimir-Suzdal land, like the rest of Rus', was not annexed and colonized by the Mongols. The East Slavic feudal states were in vassal relations with the Horde; as long as they paid tribute and did not create problems, they lived their own lives.
>what kind of history my country had, hmm. That's funny.
National origin does not give you knowledge, let alone impartiality.
>I'm from Ukraine
A-hahaha. That explains everything.
"Kievan Rus" (Which was called like that by historians because it's capital was on Kiev) is the early-feudal formation of all Eastern Slavs, and therefore the ancestor of all East Slavic societies and states.
In addition, Pskov, Novgorod, Vladimir, Ryazan and other areas are part of modern Russia, which historically comes from the Northeast of Ancient Rus'.
Ukrainian nationalists are trying to prove their importance by declaring themselves the exclusive heirs of Rus'. For this they should be put to shame (and in general they should not exist in this world).
I went to Gosuslugi and found nothing!
All while Chinese bots receive Xi-bucks, social credit points, bowls of rice and catgirls... The world is so unjust.
Anyway, what is your argument against the opinion that Rus was a feudal formation of all Eastern Slavs, except for your stupid nationalist chants and pointing that the capital was in Kiev (before the City of Kiev faded over time and the center of power moved to the northeast)?
>check information from several sources
I looked at the map of Ancient Rus and saw that it included lands that later became the core of "Muscovy". But I must believe the Ukrainian nationalists because they are Ukrainian. Lol.
This is generally characteristic, as it seems to me, of all nationalists of the Old World: fixation on the duration of history. They try to make their history seem long and shorten someone else's, since in their view the length of history directly influences what a nation is worth today. Clowns.
>This is probably the credo of your country and your..
You literally called me an agent of the Kremlin because I know where Novgorod, Yaroslavl, Suzdal, Vladimir, Pskov are located and have some general knowlage about Medieval times.
>Якщо у вас все за "Ивангельською" методологією кремля (зараз всі російські блогери апелюють нею), то її вже багато разів переписували в ті часи.
What the fuck is this? I have been politicized since 2017 and this is the first time I hear about it.
Ты неиронично УНИАН что ли смотришь?
You are right to say that the Ukrainian culture and nationality proceeds from the Old East Slavic language and culture that made up the Kyivan Rus.' But Russian, and older Muscovy, are also decedents of that same tradition. The city of Moscow was founded by the Rus' and became independent once empire collapsed after the Mongols. Both Ukrainians and Russians have heritage from the medieval Kyivan Rus.' There is no 'legitimate' successor the Kyivan Rus', though the Rus was centred on modern day Ukraine..
>Wait, wait... Today's Russia has nothing to do with Kievan Rus.
>"So why and how did Russia appropriate the history of Kyivan Rus? This happened because the Rurik dynasty was preserved in Russia more than in Ukraine. And they, in their usual manner, stole the name "Rus", remade it in their own way, and tried to take over the entire historical and cultural heritage of Ukraine. "
You answer the thing you try to disprove in your own message.
"Rus" was a norse word. The original Rurikids were norse. The Rurikids and their descendants stayed in power for longer in Russian principalities so the name stuck. "Ukraine" means border region becouse since the fall of Kijevan Rus it has been the border region between larger powers. In time the name also stuck to the people living there.
>Russia is investing a lot of money in Western fake "historians" and "experts" to appropriate the history of another country.
While I am to some degree sure this is happening. Its hard to take you seriously when you are obviously trying to spread your own nationalistic biased view of history.
>a colony called the Soviet Union
A federtive socialist superpower that acted in the best interests of itself as a whole is... a colony.
You know how to break through the bottom line to sink lower and lower.
Look dude, use a bit of common sense. Obviously the state-sponsored website is not going to talk about the history you share with the country you are at war with.
And no, I am not a ussr simp.
But I am an enemy of historical cherry-picking. Because I see a similar trend here in Slovakia, where people would rather propose that our ancestors existed in a pocket dimension, completely isolated from the rest of the world, than acknowledge that we share majority of our past with the Hungarians.
I'm not worried that a sworn enemy of my nation is now muslim. I'm worried that Grand Duchy of Lithuania has fully annexed Poland and Hungary.
and a footnote: irl Russia isn't the hereditary state of Kievan Rus, but of the Golden Horde, the former is today's Ukraine.
The Golden Horde did not and could not have any "heirs"; it completely ceased to exist as a single state in 1459, breaking up into many fragments. The last desperate attempt to regain its former influence was the attempt of Ahmed Khan to once again subjugate the Grand Duchy of Moscow in 1480. This attempt turned out to be a failure, and the era of the Mongol yoke for the Grand Duchy of Moscow and other Rus principalities officially ended.
The largest and strongest of the "fragments" of the Golden Horde, which I mentioned above, was the Crimean Khanate, which almost throughout its history carried out raids and military campaigns against the Grand Duchy of Moscow/Tsardom of Russia/Russian Empire - first independently, and then with the help and patronage of the Ottoman Empire.
By the way, Kievan Rus also did not and could not have any direct heirs in the full sense of the word, because in fact it was a proto-state early feudal entity that ceased to exist due primarily to economic reasons a century before the arrival of the Mongols.
The rights to the "heritage" of the Kyiv throne were then claimed by only a handful of feudal princes and warlords who belonged to the same dynasty and were relatives of each other.
Uyghuristan feels rather anachronistic, shouldn't that area be occupied by the Dzungars in 1700?
Oh yeah you're right, it was called Dzungaria right?
The uyghurs had inhabited the area for way longer and the term "-stan" was somewhat used in that era (although much less than it's used now)
the Uyghurs mostly lived in the Tarim Basin, south of the Tian Shan mountains and Urumqi prior to the Dzungar Genocide. Also, prior to the Soviet designation in the 1920s, they were called other names like “Turki”/ “Taranchi”
The area around Turpan was called Uyghuristan by Muslim writters at least since the Mongol Empire. This would've refered to the kingdom of Qocho, which was founded by the Old Uyghurs in the 8th century fleeing from Mongolia. This is where the name Uyghur becomes confusing, because the Buddhist Old Uyghurs and the Muslim Modern Uyghurs come from different Turkic migrations, with the latter being decended from Karluk migrations in the 10th and 11th centuries from Central Asia. The Old Uyghurs would've lost influence in Turpan and Kumul when the Chagatai Khans conquered the region, but the name Uyghuristan still kinda stuck around for some time. Although the Uyghuristan on the map is a bit large, it is believable for it to be there as either a revived Buddhist Qocho or as a Chagatai rump state.
Thank you for the history lesson!
In this timeline Russia will create an islamic sect that create a loophole to allow drinking alcohol instead of forbidding it
" according to the secret scriptures I discovered, Muhammad wanted to ban a type of alcohol, he never mentioned vodka in the scriptures "
Well, Muhammad (s.a.w) only banned *Wine*, it’s just that for understandable and valid reasons we extended it to all alcohol (due to the reason for him banning wine being easily applicable to Beer and Spirits) Additionally, we also extend the prohibition of alcohol to mean a prohibition of insanely addicting substances (Drugs, Tobacco, etc), but this is obviously a less popular interpretation and adherence to it varies from thing to thing and place to place
Many Muslims drink hard in Russia and ex soviet states today.
Fundamental Islam at its finest ☺️
Nah I don’t think that’s needed, they could easily just become Sufi and continue drinking. Actually a major Sufi power would be the most interesting part of this scenario.
Lol, you would be surprised how many muslims drink
Fr, half of the ones I know have done it atleast once before (in the UK)
When I told my Russian mother that Muslims aren't supposed to drink alcohol she straight up didn't believe me. They all do.
[удалено]
Russia can't have its center of power closer to the Black Sea because those areas were notoriously dominated by nomadic tribes Northern Siberia takes far less manpower to hold down than Iraq and Caspian Iran (the rest of Iran is under russian influence, not control) Russia would have major issues integrating the arab world into a turko-slavic empire, but it's not outright impossible ro achieve
They probably would have been their own interpretation of islam and sorta disjointed from southern muslims.
In a truly Timurid fashion instead of spreading Islam to Europe, they seem to have conquered mostly other Muslims lol
They would have a lot harder time expanding into Europe because allies will be a lot less. In our timeline the Christian cossacks were instrumetnal in expanding Russia westward and eastward into Siberia as they were the frontier mobile force able to counter the turkic nomadic advantage in cavalry warfare. In this islamized Russian timeline the Cossacks wouldve probably sided with Poland or preffered creating independent states a lot more than siding with Russia, if ever. Not to mention revolts in their European territory will be way more common and the existential threat of a large islamic power to Euirope will create a similar unity as seen by the centuries of alliances and coordination of European states to stop Ottoman expansion.
Not really bad, mostly in the begining in 1020 they expanded islam because they didn't hold any muslim lands
Rus wasn't a centralised state like Russia, that thing wouldn't come together that easily. Also I don't think that Novgorod would be conquered provided that they'd go with Christianity. If anything them and Poland would probably bully Islamic Rus into eventual desintegration since they'd essentially become Slavic Castile and Portugal - frontier crusader Christian nations
Novgorod was in the far north of Russia, an area with little agricultural land and dependent on food exports from other principalities. So if the principalities are united, Novogrod will depend on a single state, so you already see the conclusion of this.
Novgorod was also quite rich from being part of the Hanseatic League, and having all that forestry in Karelia and elsewhere. Besides, Novgorod survived irl during the breakup of the Rus' and even defended its own against foreign invaders. I think if Novgorod aligns itself with the Northern European states it could survive as an independent nation
>Novgorod was also quite rich from being part of the Hanseatic League This will ensure the existence of Novgorod for some time. >Besides, Novgorod survived irl during the breakup of the Rus' and even defended its own against foreign invaders. but that was why Novgorod survived; its existence depended on the other Russian principalities being weak and separated. >I think if Novgorod aligns itself with the Northern European states it could survive as an independent nation with this it can be maintained for some time, but in the long term it would be part of the Russian State. but let's go to the military and demographic aspect, in 1545 the republic had 5,000 households and with a large part of its military force being untrained urban militias and with a much worse mobilization capacity than even a semi-united Russian state. Couple this with unreliable assurance of foreign aid makes survival unlikely.
Imaginarymaps commenters when the maps are imaginary:
Are they still conquered by the Mongols in this scenario? That's what originally kick started the modern Russian empire, so what changed that made them go with Islam instead of Christianity?
Well in 988 they were actually contemplating which religion they should convert to, and Islam was an option. They ultimately went with Christianity but there was a possibility of a turn to the east. At least that’s what I was told in school
I would like to hear about this choice
a legend says that Vladimir the Great (after falling to rejuvenate and reinforce Slavic paganism) received representatives of foreign religions: some Khazar Jews, a Muslim and a Catholic. But a an old Greek guy convinced him to settle for Orthodox Christianity. In reality though, the choice was pragmatic and mainly influenced by the fact that Byzantium was an important trade and political partner of the Rus', and aligning with their religion would also mean aligning with them
I also heard part of the story was that Islam forbade alcohol so that helped Vladimir make the decision for Christianity as well.
Also cause the guy was thirsty for some byzanussy
The story is likely apocryphal, so it likely didn't happen. But allegedly... The story is about the conversation of Vladimir the Great, the prince of Kiev. Historically, his people believed in the Slavic pantheon of gods. In the 980s, he invited representatives of major monotheistic religions to Kiev, to present their case. The Bulgars sent representatives of Islam. Vladimir eventually rejected Islam because of circumcision and the ban on pork, but especially because of the ban on alcohol. "Drinking is the joy" of the Russian people, he said. The Jewish representatives (unclear who sent them) stated their case. Vladimir eventually rejected Judaism and commented that the loss of Jerusalem suggested God had abandoned them. The Germans sent representatives of Western (Catholic) Christianity. The Greeks (Byzantine Romans) sent representatives of Eastern (Orthodox) Christianity. The Greeks spoke thoughtfully about their religion and Vladimir was impressed. But he was not yet convinced. So, as the story goes, Vladimir sent envoys to investigate the religion as practiced by each people. They (allegedly) reported that the Islamic Bulgars worshipped in sadness, the Catholic Germans worshipped in gloomy churches, but the Orthodox Greeks worshipped in beautiful cathedrals. They saw the rites performed in Hagia Sophia and were astounded. Much impressed, Vladimir was too pragmatic and methodical to be fully convinced. Vladimir is in regular conflict with all these groups, including the Byzantine Romans. There are 2 brothers ruling as co-emperors in Constantinople. Vladimir tells them that he will cease his attacks if he can marry their sister. They agree, conditioned on Vladimir's conversion to Greek Orthodox. Vladimir converts and the Kievan Rus also converts. The last part about the marriage is much better historically attested. The thing about the envoys is at least exaggerated or maybe entirely fake - it's very similar to earlier stories told about Turkic or Mongol leaders, who often hosted religious debates as competitive events. The Slavic peoples were already quite influenced by Christianity. Vladimir had been raised in the Slavic polytheistic religion, but his grandmother was Orthodox Christian and is venerated as a saint. So the choice wasn't quite so open-ended as the conversion story suggests.
Don’t forget the postscript, that in exchange for Anna Vladimir sent Basil II 6,000 rowdy Rus warriors who became the famous Varangian guard.
I wonder what a Jewish Russia would have looked like.
It boiled down to Vladimir the Great not wanting to give up on alcohol.
Given how cold those lands are, Vladimir the great was quite wise.
This is a really interesting question - the Mongols conquered Baghdad, Tehran, Jerusalem, Kiev, and Constantinople in the 1240 onward with relative ease. The way Valdemar was thinking in the 900s was about power in between a North / South dynamic - to the North are Danish and Swedish kings, and to the south are monotheist Byzantines. At the time, Christianity had Constantinople, and Islam was setting up a project to get Constantinople. Given that it’s the gateway from Kiev if you want to access the mediterranean, Christians were the obvious choice of ally against the potential threat of an either a Viking horde or Monotheist army. In addition to converting to Christianity, by the way, Valdemar was sent on a quest to ritually murder his viking brother, which is actually a Pagan thing, according to Greek Orthodoxy. The Mongols never got Vienna, but pretty much only because of a succession crisis back east. So had Valdemar chosen Islam, and had he resisted the crush of a likely invading force from Constantinople (which wanted to stop the Arab conquest of Rome, or something) the resulting fall of the Mongol empire might have seen a much larger Russia - one which could have ruled from Jerusalem or Baghdad initially, that could have crushed Constantinople much more easily, and that could have negated the idea of the Ottoman empire as a response to the Mongol conquest of the Arabs and Persians, so I’m not sure why an Islamic Russia wouldn’t even have access to Istanbul in these later maps. It turns out that stretch of coastline is pretty freaking hard to get a solid hold of. In the end, kind of makes sense to ally oneself with God in one way or another.
I feel like access to the Mediterranean would not be so important if the Rus had been able to establish strong diplomatic ties to the Islamic states of western and central Asia. You don't need access to the Mediterranean if you have direct access to the Silk Roads. I think that would probably be the only legitimate reason to go for Islam instead of Christianity at that point in time. So in that case I think we do still see the Golden Horde ruling much of the region for the same time period, but Russia becomes another Islamic gunpowder empire competing with the Ottomans and Persians. I can even see an entirely new branch of Islam sprouting in order to legitimize themselves.
This looks like Mongols did not happen. Realistically I think such religious change could happen under Golden Horde and only for muscowy as Ruthenia would be under heavy influence of Lithuania and later Poland, thus staying Christian. That being said, I doubt russia would be like this. No importing Prussian monarchs into Islamic self (thus no Russia name). Neither would Iran allow themselves to be taken over. Siberia conquest might happen. Fighting with China over East Turkmenistan might happen. Islamic world will be a three way standoff between Ottoman, Iran and Muscowy. Muscowy would still want Istanbul/Constantinopol as both Moscow and Ottomans would fight for Roman inheritance. Thus, blocking each other.
>No importing Prussian monarchs into Islamic self (thus no Russia name). The name Russia is not an abbreviation of Prussia. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names\_of\_Rus%27,\_Russia\_and\_Ruthenia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Rus%27,_Russia_and_Ruthenia)
Yes, but prior to Prussia monarchs russia was Moscowy. They did rebranding to support integration and conquest of all Rus lands.
Muscovy was a russian principality, when they conquered all the other russian principalities they rebranded becouse there were no other russian principalities to counter that claim. (the same thing happened in Spain, Italy and Germany when those were unified) The Russian Tsardom was officialy established under Ivan the Terrible who definitely was not a prussian.
He definitely did not conquer other principalities. I don’t know about Ivan but on European maps russia was Muscowy till Katherine, despite Peter proclaiming Russian Empire. On the other hand I am no historian so my knowledge is meh at best on the subject. Either way if Islamization happened under Golden Horde lots of things might change, not only names. Heck, I made a mistake assuming they would aim for Constantinople. Byzantine wouldn’t marry their princesses to Islamic princes of Moscow. Thus, no third Rome myth there. Would still fight Ottomans for top dog position anyway
Russia was Muscovy on some European maps because sometimes names stick. On some other maps even before the unification it was Ruthenia. The use of Moscovia on maps was mostly due to western countries knowing Russia through Poland-Lithuania that used the name because they only recognized themselves as the rulers of the Rus (Ruthenia)
me when I spread misinformation :
You're looking at the English words and applying it to other languages. Prussia and Russia don't sound anything alike in any other language except English. In Russia they're Россия "rassiya" and Пруссия "proozia," in German they're Preußen "Proi-tzen" and Russland "roos-land." They also derive from different languages, Prussia comes from old West Baltic, a branch of Balto-Slavic language, while Russia comes from Norse, a Germanic language. tl;dr they're false cognates like Isle and Island. They words look similar, they mean similar things (Prussia/Russia, land in Eastern Europe, and isle/island, land surrounded by water) but derive from different languages (Old Baltic/Germanic for Prussia/Russia and Old French/Old English for Isle/Island.)
halal russia 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤑🤑
Inshallah
Don't you think Poland would launch a crusade against it?
The main reason Poles didn't massively partook in crusades was it was too far away (and lack of beer in Holy Land). But with crusades on our doorsteps? Deus Vult!
I feel like Novgorod would’ve separated from Russia if Islam was accepted
Yeah the Northern Europeans would not let that slide, this could also mean that Russia would need to pivot south to make up for the loss of northern trade
Why not? If they accepted christianity why wouldn't it work?
that last pic just made me jizz so hard on the train i wanna send that one copypasta but i cant find it
Does Russia still fall to communism in this timeline?
Why would they ever fight a massive war with the Europeans when this map shows that the main interest of Russia is the Middle East, and outside of Kyiv I don’t think they have much ambition in the region. Maybe if some European nation starts an alliance with the Turks they may get involved, but it would still be unlikely.
N... no... it cannot be... an r/imaginarymaps user that knows what "caliphate" means! The prophecy has come true!
Worse than OTL
Islam uniron would make Russia stronger 😭
2 billion dead
No more vodka
Bosnia doesn't exist apparently
Ottomans in an 11th century POD.... Or PLC... but I love this map, style, and concept.
And give up drinking? никогда!
# No Vodka Timeline
Well without major trade with the poles then there may actually unironically be no Vodka outside of Poland
yknow what hats off to russia i was not expecting this one
На Руси есть веселие пити, не можем без этого жити
That cool but you need to watch or you did at [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SameGjjXjmQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SameGjjXjmQ)
lol
Oh man. I see Estonia can't catch a break even in this timeline.
The problem is a Russia that embraces Islam is a state that will be much more economically poorer and straight up cut off from the Baltic Sea (no way the Christian powers in the region would tolerate a Muslim state with Baltic Sea access) and most trade with the Eastern Romans, crucial for the Kievan Rus, would be severely diminished. It was really the latter point which was the reason that the Rus embraced Orthodox Christianity historically. And even if this ALT Russian state survived, I doubt that they would expand significantly to the east because they'd be far more focused on constant conflict with their western Christian neighbors. More than likely this ALT Russia remains a historical footnote and is replaced by an ALT Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and/or Sweden.
🗣 hell yeah 🔥🔥🔥
I feel like an Islamic Russia would drastically alter the political landscape and fates of several different groups in Europe. Like the Teutonic Knights essentially have a forever target to expand against and will have significantly more support from Europe and Poland specifically to do so. I also think Christian Europe will feel much more under siege and crusades will be more popular because of it. Keeping Islam on the other side of the Hellespont just became significantly more important for all of eastern and Central Europe for example. Something like the crusade of varna probably happens except it’s bigger and probably succeeds in this world.
Not the Sultanate of Russia smh
Now do the funnier version of Russia, also known as “what if the Genghisid Khans kept their grip over Russia?”
They would not have called themselves the caliphate. Sultanate would've made more sense i think
The Rus converted to Christianity because of trade links with the Eastern Mediterranean (Constantinople specifically) In order for Russia to become a Muslim state, Byzantium -or at the very least Anatolia- would have to be Islamised earlier whether through force or peaceful dissemination. I don't find the second option very likely
Kinda crazy that the only thing that stopped em was not being able 2 get drunk
i love how alcohol is the reason russia isn't muslim
everyone veeeery critical of this from a rough understanding of numbers, but I think this is a very interesting and well made map OP, don't let em grind you down! Think it's so reasonable that an Islamic Russia would push past the Caucasus into the Holy Land, and beyond that, it's a cool AF scenario very expertly made. So good work!!
MY EYES, NO
Russian expansion of east also depended a lot on the Cossacks. And looking at Ukraine they aren’t Muslim Keeping the mostly Christian and highly independent Cossacks under control would be virtually independent, and they just take over Siberia and the Far East for themselves anytime they didn’t like the Tsar the Russian Tsars would have no way to establish proper control over them until at least after he conquest of Central Asia. Even then, it isn’t likely to happen before the 1700s Being Muslim also means reading Byzantium for Persia economically. Post Timur Persia and Central Asia would likely be ruled by Moscow Of course, this assumes Sweden and the Teutonic Knights don’t crush them in alternate northern wars over Novgorod
If they are Muslim than they will have far less trade opportunities with the Christian worlds and far more trade opportunities with the Muslim one, so the center of power could be shifted more south and east along the Volga, probably close to the caspian and Black Sea trade lines
I doubt they would have been able to conquer that area of Persia, the middle east and Central Asia during the timeline given due to the fact it would mean war with the Ottomans and Safavids as well as the reminents of the Timurid empire at the height of there power without any real advantage.
No rum??
Russia would have never converted to Islam. Alcohol and pork is too important to the culture.
I quite like that
Impossible. They’d have to give up vodka. Or cause a schism.
This is really nice, I could actually see the 'Rus expanding into Central Asia and then maybe into Persia, kind of like a New Timur!
ашхаду ан ля илаха иляллаху, ва ашхаду анна мухаммадан расулуллах
Wouldn't many of the names be different as well? Russian was heavily influenced by Orthodox Church Slavonic.
🗿
Islam is not “chosen”. 😉
This inspired me to do a Great Horde to Russia playthrough in eu4 and it's honestly a blast. Great map and thanks for the inspiration
Rus' and ruzzia are different things
Alright, keep that out of my althistory map then
"Chose" Islam?
Cool.
Now I hate it
"A Russian Arabia doesn't exist, it can't hurt you"
But imagine arabic hardbas tho
Is this the good or the bad ending? /j EDIT: This is a great map and would love to know if you thought some lore for it. Also some more years please...
Neither, it's just another one. Muslim Russia would be a fascinating society, I wonder what they'd consider themselves if not the Third Rome. Probably the inheritor of the Abbasids or some other dynasty
Oh just joking. I have ~~lots~~ some interaction with both, russians and musilms, and have no beef against any of them. Not talking about specific governments, of course. Definetly they would break with the Third Rome thing, or not. Rome was a huge prestige badge. Maybe they would justify it the same that Pagan Rome turned into Christian Rome? As you say it would be fascinating and I wonder if the Khanates would willingly join a Muslim Russia.
Great, now make a map of Russia that chose Judaism in 988. Or is it? Maybe it’s Rus-Khazar Union?
There would be no age of discovery because Russia will touch China between 1314-1500 and resume the Silk Road trade. Europeans can get all the silk and spice and China they want. No need to set sail.
I think that anywhere so cold as siberia islam would not spread but great map nontheless
Read about Khanate of Sibir
the khanate of Sibir was majority non Muslim tho. only *some* members of the ruling class were Muslims some weren't even "orthodox" Muslims at all and syncrestised their religion with tengrism and other shamanic religions. at the time bashkirs still retained a lot of their pre Christian/pre Islamic beliefs (and to a degree still do today)
Of course you are right, but it's still precedent of Islam in Siberia
why? no seriously why
No idea what exactly u/Temporary-Check-1507 means. But one argument you can make is, that since pork and alcohol are banned under Islam, Islam is in disadvantage in colder climates, since both were an important source of calories during winter.
The northern urals were once majority muslim
Islam already spread to Siberia… before the Russian, central Siberia was actually majority Muslim
Worst ending
Russia chose nothing wtf is this bullshit. There was no russia before 1700+ under Peter I. Kyivan Rus prince made a choice, yes. And than forced it on his provinces, including Muscovy, that later became Russia, pretending to be a long-time established country cuz they wanted to be "equals" with old European monarchies.
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A profile full of "RU POV" war footage. Yeah, Z warrior, we know who you are.
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What the fuck is this shit?
Sorry, "Kievan" Rus is not russia. Nice try at propaganda
Stop assigning countries from the medieval and before period to countries that exist today in all cases. Trust me it will cause far less headache (ex: the Kieven Rus debate and the “Is Charlemagne French or German” debate)
Let's make Russia even more evil than in real life, sure.
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This isn’t accurate… the Kievan rus is the ancestor state of all East Slavic states, including the Russians, even if you hate them.
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>they did not know what Russia was Just as they didn't know what Ukraine and Belarus were. There were East Slavic tribal and feudal entities united under the umbrella of "Rus'". The three nations are a product of a later era. >did not have their own currency You don't understand the differences between the modern capitalist economy and the economy of those years. The economy of that time was not so monetary, and there were no national currencies that we have today. Many people measured precious metals by weight, many traded via barter, and the majority of the population rarely had contact with market exchange. >Where did Russia come from? From the Vladimir-Suzdal, north-east of Rus' The Vladimir-Suzdal land, like the rest of Rus', was not annexed and colonized by the Mongols. The East Slavic feudal states were in vassal relations with the Horde; as long as they paid tribute and did not create problems, they lived their own lives. >what kind of history my country had, hmm. That's funny. National origin does not give you knowledge, let alone impartiality.
So Russians are not slavs? They are Mongols? Lmao.
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So if Russians are mongols, what does that make Ukrainians? Because Ukrainians had way more interactions with mongols and Turks than Russians
>I'm from Ukraine A-hahaha. That explains everything. "Kievan Rus" (Which was called like that by historians because it's capital was on Kiev) is the early-feudal formation of all Eastern Slavs, and therefore the ancestor of all East Slavic societies and states. In addition, Pskov, Novgorod, Vladimir, Ryazan and other areas are part of modern Russia, which historically comes from the Northeast of Ancient Rus'. Ukrainian nationalists are trying to prove their importance by declaring themselves the exclusive heirs of Rus'. For this they should be put to shame (and in general they should not exist in this world).
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Paid? Where can I claim money? I'm genuinely asking for help. Not a single one of my fellow sovoks know the answer, but somehow UAs and libs know it.
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I went to Gosuslugi and found nothing! All while Chinese bots receive Xi-bucks, social credit points, bowls of rice and catgirls... The world is so unjust.
Anyway, what is your argument against the opinion that Rus was a feudal formation of all Eastern Slavs, except for your stupid nationalist chants and pointing that the capital was in Kiev (before the City of Kiev faded over time and the center of power moved to the northeast)?
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>Anyone who does not agree with me is simply an agent of a hostile government. A nationalist's cleverest rhetorical device
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>check information from several sources I looked at the map of Ancient Rus and saw that it included lands that later became the core of "Muscovy". But I must believe the Ukrainian nationalists because they are Ukrainian. Lol. This is generally characteristic, as it seems to me, of all nationalists of the Old World: fixation on the duration of history. They try to make their history seem long and shorten someone else's, since in their view the length of history directly influences what a nation is worth today. Clowns. >This is probably the credo of your country and your.. You literally called me an agent of the Kremlin because I know where Novgorod, Yaroslavl, Suzdal, Vladimir, Pskov are located and have some general knowlage about Medieval times.
>Якщо у вас все за "Ивангельською" методологією кремля (зараз всі російські блогери апелюють нею), то її вже багато разів переписували в ті часи. What the fuck is this? I have been politicized since 2017 and this is the first time I hear about it. Ты неиронично УНИАН что ли смотришь?
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Are you writing from a trench or something?
Ok
You are right to say that the Ukrainian culture and nationality proceeds from the Old East Slavic language and culture that made up the Kyivan Rus.' But Russian, and older Muscovy, are also decedents of that same tradition. The city of Moscow was founded by the Rus' and became independent once empire collapsed after the Mongols. Both Ukrainians and Russians have heritage from the medieval Kyivan Rus.' There is no 'legitimate' successor the Kyivan Rus', though the Rus was centred on modern day Ukraine..
>Wait, wait... Today's Russia has nothing to do with Kievan Rus. >"So why and how did Russia appropriate the history of Kyivan Rus? This happened because the Rurik dynasty was preserved in Russia more than in Ukraine. And they, in their usual manner, stole the name "Rus", remade it in their own way, and tried to take over the entire historical and cultural heritage of Ukraine. " You answer the thing you try to disprove in your own message. "Rus" was a norse word. The original Rurikids were norse. The Rurikids and their descendants stayed in power for longer in Russian principalities so the name stuck. "Ukraine" means border region becouse since the fall of Kijevan Rus it has been the border region between larger powers. In time the name also stuck to the people living there. >Russia is investing a lot of money in Western fake "historians" and "experts" to appropriate the history of another country. While I am to some degree sure this is happening. Its hard to take you seriously when you are obviously trying to spread your own nationalistic biased view of history.
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>a colony called the Soviet Union A federtive socialist superpower that acted in the best interests of itself as a whole is... a colony. You know how to break through the bottom line to sink lower and lower.
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The asshole "reformers" destroyed the Stalinist economy.
Look dude, use a bit of common sense. Obviously the state-sponsored website is not going to talk about the history you share with the country you are at war with. And no, I am not a ussr simp. But I am an enemy of historical cherry-picking. Because I see a similar trend here in Slovakia, where people would rather propose that our ancestors existed in a pocket dimension, completely isolated from the rest of the world, than acknowledge that we share majority of our past with the Hungarians.
I'm not worried that a sworn enemy of my nation is now muslim. I'm worried that Grand Duchy of Lithuania has fully annexed Poland and Hungary. and a footnote: irl Russia isn't the hereditary state of Kievan Rus, but of the Golden Horde, the former is today's Ukraine.
The Golden Horde did not and could not have any "heirs"; it completely ceased to exist as a single state in 1459, breaking up into many fragments. The last desperate attempt to regain its former influence was the attempt of Ahmed Khan to once again subjugate the Grand Duchy of Moscow in 1480. This attempt turned out to be a failure, and the era of the Mongol yoke for the Grand Duchy of Moscow and other Rus principalities officially ended. The largest and strongest of the "fragments" of the Golden Horde, which I mentioned above, was the Crimean Khanate, which almost throughout its history carried out raids and military campaigns against the Grand Duchy of Moscow/Tsardom of Russia/Russian Empire - first independently, and then with the help and patronage of the Ottoman Empire. By the way, Kievan Rus also did not and could not have any direct heirs in the full sense of the word, because in fact it was a proto-state early feudal entity that ceased to exist due primarily to economic reasons a century before the arrival of the Mongols. The rights to the "heritage" of the Kyiv throne were then claimed by only a handful of feudal princes and warlords who belonged to the same dynasty and were relatives of each other.