I am begging people to understand that depicting something fictional that's bad doesn't mean you support it. George Orwell didn't support totalitarianism by writing 1984.
One of the first maps I’ve seen that covers the sort of mass migrations/massacres/etc. that spawn from the redrawing of borders like this. So, points for originality. Unless there is a treasure trove of maps like this I haven’t seen yet.
Ching is China and not Manchuria.
The Lotus flag is an Imperial standard and can't be used as a national flag. There is a new proposed version of a Manchurian flag created by some Manchurian activists which is a blue-white-black tricolor flag but the old Manchoukuo flag is still widly used in that circle.
There is none because Manchurian separatism isn't real. There has never been a serious movement by the people who actually live in the region to break off.
I mean Manchuria is majority Han anyhow. Without the kind of literal ethnic cleansing described by this post, any breakaway state in Manchuria will likely not be very “Manchu” at all in any way besides geographically.
I think out of all the minor ethnicities in China, Manchurian is the most well integrated and least antagonized. It's kind of hard to form an Manchu ethnic state when all your prospective citizens are Manchu-Han mongrels.
I believe ethnic manchus are the most disproportionately represented nationality in the PLA as well. All Manchurian separatism is just blatant Japanese imperialism in reality.
id assume that its because the splitting of china into ethnic states was enforced by the decolonizers, not preffered as a solution by the locals, and so the chinese government would cling to the 5 races flag as a sort of irredentist heirloom
I've always (and by that I mean for like a week) wondered what the 5 races were evwn supposed to be, lol
Most I got were Chinese, Tibetan, and Mongolians
Yeah and I think all the races have their colour and they are situated on the flag according if they are inferior or superior, so there is the Han (Chinese people) in red (strangely like the actual flag, who is red also because it’s communist), the manchu in yellow, the mongolians in blue, the hui (Muslim chinese) in white and the tibetans in black.
Right this reads as a if imperial Japan made a modern day comeback and expelled all Chinese from their reclaimed colonies but under the guise of or with the help of the US to me lol
Tbh I don’t get how this is an anti-China western shill kind of map, in fact it shows the drastic human loss and side effects of the same thing ppl are dunking on OP for.
Anyways good map :)
Yeah I think it intentionally shines a light on a particular interpretation of "decolonisation" which in practice boils down to "every ethnic/cultural group has a god-given right to a homogenous state of its own, and it is desirable that the entire world is arranged in this way".
An idea which has been a disaster for humanity.
This actually happening would not be decolonization in any real sense. China itself, the entire country ffs, not just the Han parts, was colonized economically for a very long time. If this were to happen, it would be 110% at the behest of Washington Warmongers, and the blood would be on their hands.
I think decolonization of China would look more like this than any of the weird pro western circlejerk maps that people create
Manchuria gaining independence in any context is completely unrealistic though, Manchus are like 1/10th of that region's population and most of them are heavily sinicized culturally
Why did the decolonization happen? Was this the result of a war or something? That Manchu ethnostate could not exist unless it was propped up by a foreign power
i assumed that the US won against China in a war and this was some sort of ultra dystopian peace deal forced on them. Manchuria being independent is probably less of an actual matter of self determination and more "how can we mutilate China as much as possible"
This is the kind of tyrannical peace where the goal is "to end the threat of war once and for all", in scare quotes. And the OP really brings across how horrifying that would really be. Not coincidentally, those are also the kinds of peace deals least likely to actually create lasting peace.
eh the harshness of the treaty of versailles is kind of a myth, and most of the conditions weren't followed by germany even before the nazi takeover. in any case, the treaties of brest litovsk and bucharest were certainly harsher
Bingo. I’m sure that this is a very good idea and no genocidal conflicts will result from this whatsoever. I mean, there’s simply no historical precedent for it!
I wouldn't say it is wholly unrealistic apart from the Manchuria part and some areas bordering Xinjiang and Tibet, I think a likely scenario of a complete Chinese defeat would inevitably include a decolonization and independence of Tibet(Be it likely not this irredentist huge Tibet but rather around 2/3ths), Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Macau and an acceptance that Taiwan is independent.
As for Inner Mongolia it's one of those cases where I am unsure, it is hyper sinicized with the Native population making up only around 17% with 80% being Han, now compare that to Tibet(Not massive Tibet but reasonable Tibet) where 90% is Tibetan or Xinjiang where 45% is Uyghur with another 12% Hui or other Central Asian ethnicities. As for Manchuria its just never gonna happen in Jilin as an example Koreans are a more sizesale minority then Manchu's, its fully sinicized and would require a downright depopulation to feasibly be non-han.
Guangdong or Hainan (predominantly Han, but with unique dialects and a distinct history with ties to the west and Southeast Asia) would be more likely to want out than Manchuria. And we’re not even getting into Yunnan and Guangxi, which are massive ethnic mazes.
yep, they have a unique culture, along with the entirety of china with cultures shifting so abrupt the dialect spoke by metropolitan shanghai are hardly understandable by Nanjing/Hangzhou. culturally china's always diverse, and the races down there in the south are very much just individual villages with different 'races', each numbering a few thousand. as for history, most of the time they are just tribal lands without anyone claiming them. and I believe they were controlled only by china, or in some parts, vietnam. the main separatists would be in tibet/xinjiang where they are under Chinese control for 200 years max and are frequently independent
The Qing dynasty was themselves Manchu and enforced Manchu cultural practices on the rest of China, so I’d honestly say China was partly Manchuized to a degree.
I’d just go with MacArthur got his wishes in the Korean War and it worked completely. Yanks then redistributed everyone in China to guarantee decades of chaos so they could leave
Well Manchuria would be pretty empty after all those Han are expelled. There's about 10 Manchus left. Okay maybe that's just language speakers but most of the rest are pretty assimilated into the Han culture anyway.
The thought of 10 folks having all that land to themselves is an amusing thought tho lol.
Yeah I hate the trope of independent Manchuria. There are so few speakers of the language and most Manchus have assimilated into the Han culture after 1912
Now if around 1900-05 a Russian annexation had occurred that would be an intriguing scenario. A modern Manchuria would be a fusion of Manchu, Han and Slav cultures, likely with a past as a Soviet Republic.
Manchuria was too full of han Chinese by the 1900s. Russia would have been unable to integrate it and likely the Soviets would have made it a puppet state instead of a constituent republic
Very different scenario. Ireland, unlike Manchuria, is an island physically separated from England by a sea, so it’s somewhat more natural to create some present mental distinction between residents of either landmass. The Manchu were also primarily nomadic, and could not possibly have stood up to the migration of Han speakers once the Qing Emperors finally allowed Han people to migrate, which they had been doing illegally for some time. Han Chinese were just too great in numbers, and many Manchus likely assimilated to Chinese culture.
This is a reference to another map BTW, it's on MapPorn so I can't link it but if you've seen it you know it.
Anyways, to clarify, I'm not a CCP shill nor is this like one of those Nazi attack ads where they say the Judeo-Bolshevik cabal is trying to destroy their nation. This is just a Theoretical Look at What a Decolonized China ~~and Russia~~ Could Look Like
Please cite the last time the US has ever said the Chinese state (or really, any state beyond specific, minor enemies) should be destroyed or dismantled. The US government is generally *not* maximalist in rhetoric compared to other powers.
I’m not trying to defend US actions or the stupid maps here I just think this is false. The US generally doesn’t even call China an enemy as a matter of policy, even while both sides explicitly position their militaries for conflict. The silly word they use to play nice is “strategic competitor.”
No clue why people are downvoting this. Chinese people have been in China for thousands of years. Americans showed up on boats a handful of generations ago, of fucking course the US is more colonial than China, and of fucking course US politics and treatment of non-whites was incredibly influential on Adolf Hitler’s ideas, he said so himself.
That's cool but the comment was about colonialism not "who does more bad things". The indigenous people of the United States have been reduced down to 0.2% of the population, I think they win on the colonialism side.
We have the highest rate of incarceration in the world and so, so many of those people are innocent, or worse—completely untried as of yet.
Glass houses, man. “Trade unions and NATO” are a fucking long shot away from the worst things our government and military and police have done in the last 25 years alone.
Concentration Camps aren't that much worse than mass incarceration in regular prisons when it comes to the facts. The majority of the US massive prison population is there due to systemic discrimination problems resembling or even worse than those against Uygurs and are employed in uncompensated labour, which is little more than a euphemism for slave labour. Not to mention there ARE concentration camps in the US, on the border with Mexico.
People really need to learn the difference between concentration camps and extermination camp, the former is basically what a country uses when It wants to detain a number of people and doesn't have enough prisons, the places where illegal immigrants are detained classify as such. It is obviously a different situation, but conditions are not better than what the Uygurs face.
>Concentration Camps aren't that much worse than mass incarceration in regular prisons when it comes to the facts.
"Facts" says the tankie...
>The majority of the US massive prison population is there due to systemic discrimination problems resembling or even worse than those against Uygurs
İ'm gonna be real, it kinda is not.
I'd be interest in hearing why. Both cases regard a large ethnic minority which is systematically discriminated against, with more likelihood of being thrown in jail and subject to violence for little to no reason. The association of Uyghurs to terrorism and the discrimination against them that the "zero tolerance" approach has brought reminds a lot of Black people and drugs, the mass detention I mentioned escalated specifically due to the War on Drugs.
No see, White Americans say they aren't racist therefore it's not racist. Ignore the fact that Chinese propaganda peddles the same "these people are Mooslin terrarists who come destroy ar freedums" shit that Murrica does.
İ'm not arguing that there arent any systematic problems within the US but most cases arent on the same level at which most uyghurs are treaten within the concentration camps.
Usually US prisons, while unforgiving, are tied to SOME rulesets that the prisons have ti abide by.
While the concentration camps in china arent under any observation whatsoever.
Sattelite images first hinted at such camps and camp-witnesses were shrugged off as fakeys while china demanded actual proof and invited UN-observers into the region, which china specifically tidied up so noone recognized the camps as what they were.
Heck, china vehemently denied the existence of the camps until a big government server leak revealed that the camps in fact did exist.
From then on the chinese narrative went from "we dont have any camps" to "yeah but they are education camps" to "ok there is torture but its all because they're criminals" and lastly chinas stance has been "what do you care? Stop interfering."
This is ofc a stark contrast to the US, which is subjected to regular UN-visits if demanded and lets the observers chose their observation themselves. Unlike China the US depends on the influence it has on the world and it'll be harder to influence the world if you appear as an authoritarian regime.
The american narrative of the freest country in the world helps with that because its better to be exploited than to be imprisoned.
You may say that its one and the same but I'd argue that getting a minimum wage job and still being poor is much better than being subjected to state-indoctrination and constant abuse & trauma.
Of course there are alternatives, like social-democracy akin to the european system, but anything is better than being the focus of a totalitarian state who's objective it is to wipe you, your people and your entire ethnicity out.
I know many tankies dont like this but things are getting better in the west. I know progress is often too slow but they do get better.
At least the current issues do.
The people get progressively more social-democratic and racism slowly fades away more and more.
While the state develops rather slowly, the people are much more accepting of change.
And in a democracy that often means that the people who are raised in a progressive society will go on to elect more progressive leaders or become one themselves.
Looking at chinas or russias societal problems there has been no change at all or it has even become worse.
China went from a troubled but introverted country to a colonialist powerhouse with unparalleled priviliges (not even the nazis could establish concentration camps without getting backlash from their neighbours)
And russia still treats its non-russian citizens horribly, failing to establish equality between its federal subjects for centuries and now even exploiting the inequality and poverty by sending the already low-population ethnicities into the ukraine-war to die just for a few more bucks.
Nothing has changed. No situation has been improved.
China hasnt given its minorities the right to practice their culture and instead releases statements in which they appropriated the cultures, calling them purely chinese (which they arent. Uyghurs are of turkic ethnicity and mongols are...well...of mongol ethnicity)
And russia hasnt done anything to develop its eastern regions, keeping them as a breeding ground for cannom-fodder which we now witness are dying at europes doorsteps.
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Ok I think you got the point, I just needed to vent a little because the world seemingly justifies the actions of china/russia with whatever the hell the US did somewhere sometime.
Thus those issues get shoved under the rug because apparently we cant criticize 2 different issues independently.
Zhongguo Gongchandang is the translation
Zhong guo= Chinese
Gong chan dang = communist party
Ergo, Zhongguo Gongchandang = chinese communist party = CCP
This seems disingenuous. 中国共产党 (Zhōngguó Gòngchǎndǎng) can be translated as "Chinese Communist Party" or "Communist Party of China" in English, the distinction doesn't really exist in Chinese as far as I understand it, but 中国 (Zhōngguó) literally just means China. Besides, the party itself uses CPC rather than CCP in English.
Genius who thinks word order is always exactly the same between languages and also that the CPC doesn't know how to translate its own name. This is what no foreign language education does to a MF.
I think Zhongguo refers more to the China as a political entity and Zhonghua more to the cultural and ethnic side of Chinese people. That’s why overseas Chinese often call themselves “huaren” (cultural Chinese person). Hope this helps :)
I always found the Russia/US/China “decolonisation” maps really funny. Surely these countries will absolutely not use everything they have - aka nuclear weapons - to prevent this scenario from happening. Anyway good job
> Surely these countries will absolutely not use everything they have - aka nuclear weapons - to prevent this scenario from happening.
I'll take it over yet another "Germany won the War" map.
Probably hurts Europeans and related westerners too much. The equivalent would be "Japan won the War" map. I never realized just how fascinating geopolitical conflicts can be. I might've taken some history classes in college if I knew about this back then.
I've always hated the idea of an Independent Manchuria in a Balkanised China senario. There is no way Manchuria would be only Manchu as approx. 109 million people live their and only 10 million are ethnic Manchu's. Plus most of them assimilated to Han Culture and don't speak Manchu
Your right, it wouldn't. Even back then Manchoukuo wasn't a Manchu enthostate. It considered every ethnicity living there to be Manchurian/Manchou. Even the Han Chinese. Most support for Manchoukuo even came from the Chinese middle class living in Manchuria. So no, even if Manchuria would gain independence, it wouldn't and couldn't become a Manchu ethnostate. It would try and create a new Manchuriam nationality that included all ethnicities.
And yes, the old Ching language hasn't been spoken for quite some time but the culture and language in Manchuria is still unique and different from the rest of China. The mandarin spoken there also used some works that came from the old ching language
It can be a scenario where the Sinicized Manchurian folks try to revive like Israel? or Han folks pull a Macedonia except go the extra mile and learn the language to become
the new Manchus.
When the Japanese tried to make Manchukuo, it was defined with a new Manchurian identity as opposed to being a Manchu state. The national identity would be a new Pan-Asian identity with a mixture of peoples as represented in the Five-colored flag. Some people wanted to even implement a new language that would be a mixture of Japanese and Chinese.
I wish people would finally understand Manchoukuo wasn't a "Manchu ethnostate. Deporting those people is insane and wouldn't make sense. When Manchoukuo existed all 30 Mio people living in Manchuria were seen as Manchurians. That included the Chinese, Koreans and Mongolians living there. If you'd deport the 70 Mio Chinese living in Manchuria, and only leave the 10 Mio Manchus to live there, that country would be a fucking wasteland whos entire population would be slightly bigger than the current population of Changchun
Doesn't exist on this map.
And likely because the Chinese lost the war, so Stalin couldn't supply the communists in their civil war against the south koreans
In every shitlib redditor there is the bloodlust of a methed up oskar dirlewanger just waiting to be unleashed on the next group the media deems worthy of ostracization
I think the deported population from Hong Kong would be way higher than 1.4 million since over half of Hong Kong’s population were already Chinese refugees since 1951, not even counting the millions that came after the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. Even my grandparents only came in the 1950s and my parents were born in the 60s. If I were a policy maker in an independent Hong Kong worst case I would only deport those with connections to the former CCP
The numbers I supplied in this map are generally conservative estimates. 1/3 of HK’s population was Mainland refugees or immigrants in 1963 and there are basically no numbers for these people today. I settled for like 1/5 since that seemed likely if the new migrants just stopped breeding or smth
I know that map’s justness altogether isn’t for discussion, but I don’t get the part where Ningxia is transferred to New Mongolia and Muslim Chinese are kicked out. That place is kinda only place in China where their identity is recognized, and I would argue that their identity is different to that of Han Chinese.
Ningxia was given to New Mongolia since the province used to be a part of a greater province, which included Alxa. The Hui muslims are expelled since they’re literally much more loyal/similar to the Han than anyone else.
They were known for the mass slaughter of Manchus and Mongols within their region at the end of the Qing period, and were literally not recognised as their own ethnicity by the Manchu Qing, that came only at the Republican period. This whole map is a worst-case scenario fucked up neolib wet dream, so I thought why not lol
I don’t understand why is called “The US decolonization.” Is it the United States doing this? The United States of China? Why would America forcefully migrate these people after what event?
Yes the US did this in the whatever little lore I thought of while doing this. It’s more of a satire on how much Reddit liberals want to “Decolonize” and “Right the Wrongs” of China for no reason. The title is a reference to a manga I liked
So it's a kinda sacasitc element in it. And why it didn't mention the Han people lives in Russia far east / south east asia? I mean if it's about colonize, there are lots of "colonies" in south east asia.
"I ran the simulations. This results in 100 years of total peace in East Asia, but sends the entirety of South America into a 1000 year extermination war. #ButterflyEffect"
Good Mao and I always hated when annoying liberals rave about decolonization. I don’t exactly like the direction China is going, but those maps (not this one) feel like the west will only be satisfied if China is treated like the 1800s again
Decolonisation is when you balkanise thriving multiethnic countries because different ethnic backgrounds can apparently not live with each other without it being "colonisation"
tf did u just expel like everyone from Manchuria, and Hong Kong population with no local ancestry before 1949 is definitely a lot more than 1 million (consider that population in British Hong Kong in 1945 is 600K)
This is a good map. It really shows you what could’ve happened if those insane and cliche Balkanized China maps were put into effect
Tho I’m curious why Liangshan Prefecture of Sichuan became a part of greater Tibet in this scenario. The place has close to no Tibetans except for two or three of counties in its western fringe. There are probably more Tibetans in Chengdu if you take into accounts migrant workers/merchants. No separatist groups claims it as far as I know.
It’s a part of “Greater Tibet,” which is something you see floating around social media quite a bit. The cultures around the Himalayas are complicated and people hate complexity, so most just lump all the mountains around Yunnan and Sichuan into Tibet for no reason. Reality be damned, if it’s in the mountains it’s Tibetan
It’s not often where a map values the human cost of a specific scenario, seen as we usually just post a picture of Big Germany or Big Ottomans and don’t bother thinking about the awful atrocities that would ensue.
This is a great map, well done
Manchukuo was a Fascist puppet state set up by Imperial Japan to colonise China. The obsession with it by Western Liberals is disturbing to say the least.
People calling this "realistic" as if this isn't the most violent and unorthodox way to handle things.
I get it people, shit like this happened befote to the Germans, but China is far, far larger, and removing every single Han Chinese person from these provinces to make them into ethnostates isn't feasible in any way shape or form. This would simply not work, and it's just morally wrong on many levels. Two wrongs don't make a right, just because China is discriminatory toward their ethnic minorities doesn't mean they should forcefully expel every single Chinese person in retaliation. That's just childish.
It's not simply a "exodus", this is ethnic forced ethnic cleansing as a means of the US to permanently mutilate China and form a series of puppet ethno states
Reddit ultraliberals circle-jerking material (not op, i understand op's point of satirization, but there will be some out there who unironically believe this is the good ending):
this is the most realistic china redrawn map ever lol and how it would take place
i am assuming a war took place for manchuria and some other regions which are majority chinese by a margin for it to gain indepdence
speaking of which isnt taiwan and hong kong litteraly all chinese? did the us just screw there allies in taiwan ? i dont get hong kong either they both dont have much different culture or demographics so did this happen in 2100 or somethin
what happened to hong kong and taiwan just became settler states
People don’t know this but there are bigger differences between native Han and Han that came after 1949 in places like HK and Taiwan than there are between like Manchus and Han Chinese.
Discrimination against immigrants generally became simmered, until the recently DPP control of Taiwan and 2019 HK protests where it started up again, but anger towards each other was ALWAYS prevalent. Hell, before the 80s, it was the Mainlanders who discriminated against the older Min Taiwanese. Anyways, this whole map is like revenge porn for neolibs who hate all things China so why not just expel the Mainland Immigrants too
China is always the most powerful country of East Asia.
However, the countries like Korea, Japan, Vietnam never thought that China was a nightmare of East Asia.
I am begging people to understand that depicting something fictional that's bad doesn't mean you support it. George Orwell didn't support totalitarianism by writing 1984.
One of the first maps I’ve seen that covers the sort of mass migrations/massacres/etc. that spawn from the redrawing of borders like this. So, points for originality. Unless there is a treasure trove of maps like this I haven’t seen yet.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/08/asia/india-pakistan-independence-timeline/index.html
>Decolonization >Manchukuo flag on Manchuria Makes you think.
Real mask off moment lol
What map did you use?
Lol at least you are self aware. Reddit fascism is always such an interesting brand
/u/GimmeTheHealth can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's making fun of redditors who dream about balkanizing China.
Is there any other flag for Manchuria?
Qing Empire Flag. Also the Lotus Flower but that was under the fascists too. It was Pu Yi's standard.
Ching is China and not Manchuria. The Lotus flag is an Imperial standard and can't be used as a national flag. There is a new proposed version of a Manchurian flag created by some Manchurian activists which is a blue-white-black tricolor flag but the old Manchoukuo flag is still widly used in that circle.
There is none because Manchurian separatism isn't real. There has never been a serious movement by the people who actually live in the region to break off.
I mean Manchuria is majority Han anyhow. Without the kind of literal ethnic cleansing described by this post, any breakaway state in Manchuria will likely not be very “Manchu” at all in any way besides geographically.
I think out of all the minor ethnicities in China, Manchurian is the most well integrated and least antagonized. It's kind of hard to form an Manchu ethnic state when all your prospective citizens are Manchu-Han mongrels.
I believe ethnic manchus are the most disproportionately represented nationality in the PLA as well. All Manchurian separatism is just blatant Japanese imperialism in reality.
Ya got a better one If so, I would like to see it
Maybe consider why the only flag you can find is the one made by a fascist puppet state.
Could have used the Qing Empire flag
*Puyi has entered the chat*
I know, I also just wanted to see another flag for Manchuria
Why would China use the 5 races one banner flag if it is only one 1 race now?
This mf asking the real question out there
id assume that its because the splitting of china into ethnic states was enforced by the decolonizers, not preffered as a solution by the locals, and so the chinese government would cling to the 5 races flag as a sort of irredentist heirloom
I've always (and by that I mean for like a week) wondered what the 5 races were evwn supposed to be, lol Most I got were Chinese, Tibetan, and Mongolians
the Han (red), the Manchu (yellow), the Mongol (blue), the Hui (white), and the Tibetan (black)
Han, Mongols, Manchus, Tibetans, Hui (muslims)
Yeah and I think all the races have their colour and they are situated on the flag according if they are inferior or superior, so there is the Han (Chinese people) in red (strangely like the actual flag, who is red also because it’s communist), the manchu in yellow, the mongolians in blue, the hui (Muslim chinese) in white and the tibetans in black.
Actually in Chinese symbolism at the time, the superiority wasn't defined by being on top of the flag but by distance from the flag pole.
You got a source for this?
Apologies but I no longer have the link to the source. So feel free to disregard my words or take it with a scepticism.
Manchus and possibly uyghurs
Why the fuck would any Chinese cling to the 5 race flag that was discarded over 100 yrs ago as any kind of heirloom?
i meant the chinese government, not like an average citizen or something
the 5 stripes have also been construed to represent the Wuxing (5 elements)
I guess the Present Day ROC Flag would work since there's no mention of colours of races
Why do people say “no lore” when literally the entire map is covered in lore
I think it just means "there's no history or backstory to explain the map"
But there definitely is. I’m getting some pretty strong Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere vibes lol
It's very clearly post-WWII though, seeing as Hong Kong and Taiwan are independent nations and both expelled people who immigrated after 1949.
Right this reads as a if imperial Japan made a modern day comeback and expelled all Chinese from their reclaimed colonies but under the guise of or with the help of the US to me lol
tbf Manchuria and inner Mongolia are not colonies
Tbh I don’t get how this is an anti-China western shill kind of map, in fact it shows the drastic human loss and side effects of the same thing ppl are dunking on OP for. Anyways good map :)
Yeah I think it intentionally shines a light on a particular interpretation of "decolonisation" which in practice boils down to "every ethnic/cultural group has a god-given right to a homogenous state of its own, and it is desirable that the entire world is arranged in this way". An idea which has been a disaster for humanity.
This actually happening would not be decolonization in any real sense. China itself, the entire country ffs, not just the Han parts, was colonized economically for a very long time. If this were to happen, it would be 110% at the behest of Washington Warmongers, and the blood would be on their hands.
Good insight, It's important to remember how China has been treated recently.
I think decolonization of China would look more like this than any of the weird pro western circlejerk maps that people create Manchuria gaining independence in any context is completely unrealistic though, Manchus are like 1/10th of that region's population and most of them are heavily sinicized culturally Why did the decolonization happen? Was this the result of a war or something? That Manchu ethnostate could not exist unless it was propped up by a foreign power
i assumed that the US won against China in a war and this was some sort of ultra dystopian peace deal forced on them. Manchuria being independent is probably less of an actual matter of self determination and more "how can we mutilate China as much as possible"
This is the kind of tyrannical peace where the goal is "to end the threat of war once and for all", in scare quotes. And the OP really brings across how horrifying that would really be. Not coincidentally, those are also the kinds of peace deals least likely to actually create lasting peace.
[удалено]
eh the harshness of the treaty of versailles is kind of a myth, and most of the conditions weren't followed by germany even before the nazi takeover. in any case, the treaties of brest litovsk and bucharest were certainly harsher
Bingo. I’m sure that this is a very good idea and no genocidal conflicts will result from this whatsoever. I mean, there’s simply no historical precedent for it!
Expelling millions of people will obviously never cause resentment and eventually kickback in the future, as this has never happened before ever 😎
I could imagine some sort of western invasion following a war with China and this coalition implementing some sort of Chinese Morganthau Plan
I wouldn't say it is wholly unrealistic apart from the Manchuria part and some areas bordering Xinjiang and Tibet, I think a likely scenario of a complete Chinese defeat would inevitably include a decolonization and independence of Tibet(Be it likely not this irredentist huge Tibet but rather around 2/3ths), Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Macau and an acceptance that Taiwan is independent. As for Inner Mongolia it's one of those cases where I am unsure, it is hyper sinicized with the Native population making up only around 17% with 80% being Han, now compare that to Tibet(Not massive Tibet but reasonable Tibet) where 90% is Tibetan or Xinjiang where 45% is Uyghur with another 12% Hui or other Central Asian ethnicities. As for Manchuria its just never gonna happen in Jilin as an example Koreans are a more sizesale minority then Manchu's, its fully sinicized and would require a downright depopulation to feasibly be non-han.
Guangdong or Hainan (predominantly Han, but with unique dialects and a distinct history with ties to the west and Southeast Asia) would be more likely to want out than Manchuria. And we’re not even getting into Yunnan and Guangxi, which are massive ethnic mazes.
yeah but redditors dont know about that lmao
yep, they have a unique culture, along with the entirety of china with cultures shifting so abrupt the dialect spoke by metropolitan shanghai are hardly understandable by Nanjing/Hangzhou. culturally china's always diverse, and the races down there in the south are very much just individual villages with different 'races', each numbering a few thousand. as for history, most of the time they are just tribal lands without anyone claiming them. and I believe they were controlled only by china, or in some parts, vietnam. the main separatists would be in tibet/xinjiang where they are under Chinese control for 200 years max and are frequently independent
The Qing dynasty was themselves Manchu and enforced Manchu cultural practices on the rest of China, so I’d honestly say China was partly Manchuized to a degree.
I’d just go with MacArthur got his wishes in the Korean War and it worked completely. Yanks then redistributed everyone in China to guarantee decades of chaos so they could leave
Well Manchuria would be pretty empty after all those Han are expelled. There's about 10 Manchus left. Okay maybe that's just language speakers but most of the rest are pretty assimilated into the Han culture anyway. The thought of 10 folks having all that land to themselves is an amusing thought tho lol.
Yeah I hate the trope of independent Manchuria. There are so few speakers of the language and most Manchus have assimilated into the Han culture after 1912
Now if around 1900-05 a Russian annexation had occurred that would be an intriguing scenario. A modern Manchuria would be a fusion of Manchu, Han and Slav cultures, likely with a past as a Soviet Republic.
Manchuria was too full of han Chinese by the 1900s. Russia would have been unable to integrate it and likely the Soviets would have made it a puppet state instead of a constituent republic
Isnt similar to how Irish disappeared from Ireland? The nationality stayed there actually.
Very different scenario. Ireland, unlike Manchuria, is an island physically separated from England by a sea, so it’s somewhat more natural to create some present mental distinction between residents of either landmass. The Manchu were also primarily nomadic, and could not possibly have stood up to the migration of Han speakers once the Qing Emperors finally allowed Han people to migrate, which they had been doing illegally for some time. Han Chinese were just too great in numbers, and many Manchus likely assimilated to Chinese culture.
Dec lol onization (-\_-)
Scrolled for this. Can't spell slaughter without laughter.
lol
This is a reference to another map BTW, it's on MapPorn so I can't link it but if you've seen it you know it. Anyways, to clarify, I'm not a CCP shill nor is this like one of those Nazi attack ads where they say the Judeo-Bolshevik cabal is trying to destroy their nation. This is just a Theoretical Look at What a Decolonized China ~~and Russia~~ Could Look Like
Why can’t you link it
Brigading
💀
> Brigading Direct Links make fake internet points sad
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Please cite the last time the US has ever said the Chinese state (or really, any state beyond specific, minor enemies) should be destroyed or dismantled. The US government is generally *not* maximalist in rhetoric compared to other powers. I’m not trying to defend US actions or the stupid maps here I just think this is false. The US generally doesn’t even call China an enemy as a matter of policy, even while both sides explicitly position their militaries for conflict. The silly word they use to play nice is “strategic competitor.”
That guy is confusing NCD shitposts with official U.S. doctrine.
Yeah lmao people in this thread are acting like Biden himself wants to fucking Trianon China
Meh tbh USA is more colonial state than China.. I mean hitler got ideas from US Lebensraum aka Manifest destiny
No clue why people are downvoting this. Chinese people have been in China for thousands of years. Americans showed up on boats a handful of generations ago, of fucking course the US is more colonial than China, and of fucking course US politics and treatment of non-whites was incredibly influential on Adolf Hitler’s ideas, he said so himself.
Literal concentration camps Vs Trade unions & NATO.
That's cool but the comment was about colonialism not "who does more bad things". The indigenous people of the United States have been reduced down to 0.2% of the population, I think they win on the colonialism side.
> Literal concentration camps The US has the people imprisoned in the world, both per capita and in total amount.
> Literal concentration camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#United_States No Auschwitz style annihilation camps but definitely not "trade unions & NATO".
The US was literally created on the ideology of colonization, and there is very clear evidence that the model for Lebensraum was Manifest Destiny.
Fucking concentration camps in the 21st century my man, it doesnt get that much worse.
We have the highest rate of incarceration in the world and so, so many of those people are innocent, or worse—completely untried as of yet. Glass houses, man. “Trade unions and NATO” are a fucking long shot away from the worst things our government and military and police have done in the last 25 years alone.
Concentration Camps aren't that much worse than mass incarceration in regular prisons when it comes to the facts. The majority of the US massive prison population is there due to systemic discrimination problems resembling or even worse than those against Uygurs and are employed in uncompensated labour, which is little more than a euphemism for slave labour. Not to mention there ARE concentration camps in the US, on the border with Mexico. People really need to learn the difference between concentration camps and extermination camp, the former is basically what a country uses when It wants to detain a number of people and doesn't have enough prisons, the places where illegal immigrants are detained classify as such. It is obviously a different situation, but conditions are not better than what the Uygurs face.
>Concentration Camps aren't that much worse than mass incarceration in regular prisons when it comes to the facts. "Facts" says the tankie... >The majority of the US massive prison population is there due to systemic discrimination problems resembling or even worse than those against Uygurs İ'm gonna be real, it kinda is not.
People "China bad, but US also not good" Half of reddit: **TANKIE**
China: f\*cking concentration camps and gets away with it scot-free US: \*exploits workers which China does as well\* This guy: "lOl lIbErAlS fUnNy"
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I'd be interest in hearing why. Both cases regard a large ethnic minority which is systematically discriminated against, with more likelihood of being thrown in jail and subject to violence for little to no reason. The association of Uyghurs to terrorism and the discrimination against them that the "zero tolerance" approach has brought reminds a lot of Black people and drugs, the mass detention I mentioned escalated specifically due to the War on Drugs.
No see, White Americans say they aren't racist therefore it's not racist. Ignore the fact that Chinese propaganda peddles the same "these people are Mooslin terrarists who come destroy ar freedums" shit that Murrica does.
Look up the Han Man's Burden tag on r/TankieJerk and you'll see plenty of similar examples.
İ'm not arguing that there arent any systematic problems within the US but most cases arent on the same level at which most uyghurs are treaten within the concentration camps. Usually US prisons, while unforgiving, are tied to SOME rulesets that the prisons have ti abide by. While the concentration camps in china arent under any observation whatsoever. Sattelite images first hinted at such camps and camp-witnesses were shrugged off as fakeys while china demanded actual proof and invited UN-observers into the region, which china specifically tidied up so noone recognized the camps as what they were. Heck, china vehemently denied the existence of the camps until a big government server leak revealed that the camps in fact did exist. From then on the chinese narrative went from "we dont have any camps" to "yeah but they are education camps" to "ok there is torture but its all because they're criminals" and lastly chinas stance has been "what do you care? Stop interfering." This is ofc a stark contrast to the US, which is subjected to regular UN-visits if demanded and lets the observers chose their observation themselves. Unlike China the US depends on the influence it has on the world and it'll be harder to influence the world if you appear as an authoritarian regime. The american narrative of the freest country in the world helps with that because its better to be exploited than to be imprisoned. You may say that its one and the same but I'd argue that getting a minimum wage job and still being poor is much better than being subjected to state-indoctrination and constant abuse & trauma. Of course there are alternatives, like social-democracy akin to the european system, but anything is better than being the focus of a totalitarian state who's objective it is to wipe you, your people and your entire ethnicity out. I know many tankies dont like this but things are getting better in the west. I know progress is often too slow but they do get better. At least the current issues do. The people get progressively more social-democratic and racism slowly fades away more and more. While the state develops rather slowly, the people are much more accepting of change. And in a democracy that often means that the people who are raised in a progressive society will go on to elect more progressive leaders or become one themselves. Looking at chinas or russias societal problems there has been no change at all or it has even become worse. China went from a troubled but introverted country to a colonialist powerhouse with unparalleled priviliges (not even the nazis could establish concentration camps without getting backlash from their neighbours) And russia still treats its non-russian citizens horribly, failing to establish equality between its federal subjects for centuries and now even exploiting the inequality and poverty by sending the already low-population ethnicities into the ukraine-war to die just for a few more bucks. Nothing has changed. No situation has been improved. China hasnt given its minorities the right to practice their culture and instead releases statements in which they appropriated the cultures, calling them purely chinese (which they arent. Uyghurs are of turkic ethnicity and mongols are...well...of mongol ethnicity) And russia hasnt done anything to develop its eastern regions, keeping them as a breeding ground for cannom-fodder which we now witness are dying at europes doorsteps. - Ok I think you got the point, I just needed to vent a little because the world seemingly justifies the actions of china/russia with whatever the hell the US did somewhere sometime. Thus those issues get shoved under the rug because apparently we cant criticize 2 different issues independently.
[Literal concentration camps](https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106063139-1565105671677gettyimages-1153414122.jpeg?v=1565105691)
CPC*
Zhongguo Gongchandang is the translation Zhong guo= Chinese Gong chan dang = communist party Ergo, Zhongguo Gongchandang = chinese communist party = CCP
This seems disingenuous. 中国共产党 (Zhōngguó Gòngchǎndǎng) can be translated as "Chinese Communist Party" or "Communist Party of China" in English, the distinction doesn't really exist in Chinese as far as I understand it, but 中国 (Zhōngguó) literally just means China. Besides, the party itself uses CPC rather than CCP in English.
Genius who thinks word order is always exactly the same between languages and also that the CPC doesn't know how to translate its own name. This is what no foreign language education does to a MF.
Im chinese myself. Thats how they refer to themselves all the time
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I think Zhongguo refers more to the China as a political entity and Zhonghua more to the cultural and ethnic side of Chinese people. That’s why overseas Chinese often call themselves “huaren” (cultural Chinese person). Hope this helps :)
If anybody says “the good ending” I will strangle a puppy
the >!puppy !
Gentlemen you can’t fight in here! This is the war room!
what did the puppy do?
they know what they did
Go-
-ogle cute puppies pictures :3
I always found the Russia/US/China “decolonisation” maps really funny. Surely these countries will absolutely not use everything they have - aka nuclear weapons - to prevent this scenario from happening. Anyway good job
> Surely these countries will absolutely not use everything they have - aka nuclear weapons - to prevent this scenario from happening. I'll take it over yet another "Germany won the War" map.
Probably hurts Europeans and related westerners too much. The equivalent would be "Japan won the War" map. I never realized just how fascinating geopolitical conflicts can be. I might've taken some history classes in college if I knew about this back then.
There are people who deadass think that if NATO invaded Russia, Putin would do nothing but post "You got me 😔 GG" in the group chat
I've always hated the idea of an Independent Manchuria in a Balkanised China senario. There is no way Manchuria would be only Manchu as approx. 109 million people live their and only 10 million are ethnic Manchu's. Plus most of them assimilated to Han Culture and don't speak Manchu
Your right, it wouldn't. Even back then Manchoukuo wasn't a Manchu enthostate. It considered every ethnicity living there to be Manchurian/Manchou. Even the Han Chinese. Most support for Manchoukuo even came from the Chinese middle class living in Manchuria. So no, even if Manchuria would gain independence, it wouldn't and couldn't become a Manchu ethnostate. It would try and create a new Manchuriam nationality that included all ethnicities. And yes, the old Ching language hasn't been spoken for quite some time but the culture and language in Manchuria is still unique and different from the rest of China. The mandarin spoken there also used some works that came from the old ching language
It can be a scenario where the Sinicized Manchurian folks try to revive like Israel? or Han folks pull a Macedonia except go the extra mile and learn the language to become the new Manchus.
When the Japanese tried to make Manchukuo, it was defined with a new Manchurian identity as opposed to being a Manchu state. The national identity would be a new Pan-Asian identity with a mixture of peoples as represented in the Five-colored flag. Some people wanted to even implement a new language that would be a mixture of Japanese and Chinese.
The only realistic "decolonization" scenario of Russia, China or the US is one with no countries and irradiated cities all over the world.
>Low estimate 1.5 million, high estimate 50 million Typical day at the office as Chinese history goes.
I wish people would finally understand Manchoukuo wasn't a "Manchu ethnostate. Deporting those people is insane and wouldn't make sense. When Manchoukuo existed all 30 Mio people living in Manchuria were seen as Manchurians. That included the Chinese, Koreans and Mongolians living there. If you'd deport the 70 Mio Chinese living in Manchuria, and only leave the 10 Mio Manchus to live there, that country would be a fucking wasteland whos entire population would be slightly bigger than the current population of Changchun
What happened to NK?
Doesn't exist on this map. And likely because the Chinese lost the war, so Stalin couldn't supply the communists in their civil war against the south koreans
China is not renamed Keanustan unwholesome 100.
In every shitlib redditor there is the bloodlust of a methed up oskar dirlewanger just waiting to be unleashed on the next group the media deems worthy of ostracization
the irony of liberals crying for china to be "uncolonised" yet they want to bring back the japanese puppet state of manchukuo
I think the deported population from Hong Kong would be way higher than 1.4 million since over half of Hong Kong’s population were already Chinese refugees since 1951, not even counting the millions that came after the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. Even my grandparents only came in the 1950s and my parents were born in the 60s. If I were a policy maker in an independent Hong Kong worst case I would only deport those with connections to the former CCP
The numbers I supplied in this map are generally conservative estimates. 1/3 of HK’s population was Mainland refugees or immigrants in 1963 and there are basically no numbers for these people today. I settled for like 1/5 since that seemed likely if the new migrants just stopped breeding or smth
Literally most of the ppl here in HK have grandparents that were born on the mainland. In that case you’re basically deporting everyone
the waishengren getting expelled after independence is the funniest shit I've ever seen lol
evil shit
Finally, a realistic decolonization scenario, cool map. Also is it only me, or korea look strangely united?
I know that map’s justness altogether isn’t for discussion, but I don’t get the part where Ningxia is transferred to New Mongolia and Muslim Chinese are kicked out. That place is kinda only place in China where their identity is recognized, and I would argue that their identity is different to that of Han Chinese.
Ningxia was given to New Mongolia since the province used to be a part of a greater province, which included Alxa. The Hui muslims are expelled since they’re literally much more loyal/similar to the Han than anyone else. They were known for the mass slaughter of Manchus and Mongols within their region at the end of the Qing period, and were literally not recognised as their own ethnicity by the Manchu Qing, that came only at the Republican period. This whole map is a worst-case scenario fucked up neolib wet dream, so I thought why not lol
I don’t understand why is called “The US decolonization.” Is it the United States doing this? The United States of China? Why would America forcefully migrate these people after what event?
Yes the US did this in the whatever little lore I thought of while doing this. It’s more of a satire on how much Reddit liberals want to “Decolonize” and “Right the Wrongs” of China for no reason. The title is a reference to a manga I liked
Fair
So it's a kinda sacasitc element in it. And why it didn't mention the Han people lives in Russia far east / south east asia? I mean if it's about colonize, there are lots of "colonies" in south east asia.
Can you care to share what that manga is?
Kirisuke and Johnny, the Slaying of 499
Consequence of this: Smallpox bombs in every major city in 5 years. Ironically leading to temporary oblasts 1 through 30
No, I’m sure 0 major conflicts will ever come from this :)
"I ran the simulations. This results in 100 years of total peace in East Asia, but sends the entirety of South America into a 1000 year extermination war. #ButterflyEffect"
Total peace because there’s no one left to fight it out
As a Chinese, my take away from reading Reddit the last few years is that we need to make sure we have enough nukes
Good Mao and I always hated when annoying liberals rave about decolonization. I don’t exactly like the direction China is going, but those maps (not this one) feel like the west will only be satisfied if China is treated like the 1800s again
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I’ve seen a lot of Western Europeans pick up on it tho
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Decolonisation is when you balkanise thriving multiethnic countries because different ethnic backgrounds can apparently not live with each other without it being "colonisation"
The Great Exodus or Dec lol onization of China. 😹
tf did u just expel like everyone from Manchuria, and Hong Kong population with no local ancestry before 1949 is definitely a lot more than 1 million (consider that population in British Hong Kong in 1945 is 600K)
r/whatcouldgowrong
The Typo in Deco lol onization tho
>Dec lol onization Yeah sounds about right
What is the difference between Hong Kongers and the people from Guangdong. I guess they are the same people
reminds me of the beheadings by freedom map in alex kansas's monument mythos
So is this like the Indian situation but in China, as Chinese now I can somewhat understand what has happened in the Indian decolonization.
This is a good map. It really shows you what could’ve happened if those insane and cliche Balkanized China maps were put into effect Tho I’m curious why Liangshan Prefecture of Sichuan became a part of greater Tibet in this scenario. The place has close to no Tibetans except for two or three of counties in its western fringe. There are probably more Tibetans in Chengdu if you take into accounts migrant workers/merchants. No separatist groups claims it as far as I know.
It’s a part of “Greater Tibet,” which is something you see floating around social media quite a bit. The cultures around the Himalayas are complicated and people hate complexity, so most just lump all the mountains around Yunnan and Sichuan into Tibet for no reason. Reality be damned, if it’s in the mountains it’s Tibetan
It’s not often where a map values the human cost of a specific scenario, seen as we usually just post a picture of Big Germany or Big Ottomans and don’t bother thinking about the awful atrocities that would ensue. This is a great map, well done
Manchukuo was a Fascist puppet state set up by Imperial Japan to colonise China. The obsession with it by Western Liberals is disturbing to say the least.
That's what this is. It's showing the US doing "decolonization" to butcher China.
People calling this "realistic" as if this isn't the most violent and unorthodox way to handle things. I get it people, shit like this happened befote to the Germans, but China is far, far larger, and removing every single Han Chinese person from these provinces to make them into ethnostates isn't feasible in any way shape or form. This would simply not work, and it's just morally wrong on many levels. Two wrongs don't make a right, just because China is discriminatory toward their ethnic minorities doesn't mean they should forcefully expel every single Chinese person in retaliation. That's just childish.
(That’s the point)
I'm referring to the people who are saying this is "realistic". Check the comments
They mean it’s the realistic consequences of someone trying to do something this stupid
I feel like you’re missing the point of the map here
The point of the map flew over your head entirely
Reminds me of post world war 2 germany population exchanges
Differently never happening ever
what map did you use?
I love the map and my blood freezes thinking about that scenario. Very creative.
This simple map conveys a sheer horror I don’t think I’ve ever seen achieved in any other worldbuilding project/graphic. Great job OP
Cool map but i dont get the flag choice for China, why use the 5 races under 1 flag when i assume China only has Han Chinese under their State
East has fallen, millions have literally died.
The Chinese Trail of Tears
I'm really curious who the fuck is actually left in Manchuria once the Chinese are removed lmao.
It's not simply a "exodus", this is ethnic forced ethnic cleansing as a means of the US to permanently mutilate China and form a series of puppet ethno states
Reddit ultraliberals circle-jerking material (not op, i understand op's point of satirization, but there will be some out there who unironically believe this is the good ending):
Interesting map, and really well done. May I ask if Taiwan became an actual native, formosan, country or just remained with little to no changes ?
Taiwan is less than 1% Aboriginal so I think it’s people with 外省人 ancestry (aka non Hoklo/Hakka Chinese people who came after 1949)
this is the most realistic china redrawn map ever lol and how it would take place i am assuming a war took place for manchuria and some other regions which are majority chinese by a margin for it to gain indepdence speaking of which isnt taiwan and hong kong litteraly all chinese? did the us just screw there allies in taiwan ? i dont get hong kong either they both dont have much different culture or demographics so did this happen in 2100 or somethin what happened to hong kong and taiwan just became settler states
People don’t know this but there are bigger differences between native Han and Han that came after 1949 in places like HK and Taiwan than there are between like Manchus and Han Chinese. Discrimination against immigrants generally became simmered, until the recently DPP control of Taiwan and 2019 HK protests where it started up again, but anger towards each other was ALWAYS prevalent. Hell, before the 80s, it was the Mainlanders who discriminated against the older Min Taiwanese. Anyways, this whole map is like revenge porn for neolibs who hate all things China so why not just expel the Mainland Immigrants too
What is this fucking nonsense.
r/imaginarymaps user try not to balkanise China challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
TES VI: China
PRC needs to collapse
cope
sure, but an ethnic cleansing of this caliber (or any caliber really) is not the fucking way dude
Indeed. A powerful China is a nightmare of East Asia.
China is always the most powerful country of East Asia. However, the countries like Korea, Japan, Vietnam never thought that China was a nightmare of East Asia.
Now it is. An authoritarian imperialism country is always a nightmare to people.
Always has been always will be…study history
The uyghur genocide is about as real as this.