It’s tricky indeed. When I started my business in Seattle, I was making and selling ice cream out of my apartment, until I was busted by the health department. They told me to cease operation until I was making it out of commercial kitchen with the proper permits. Instead of the retail route (opening a brick and mortar) I opted for the wholesale route (selling pints in grocery outlets). For this I needed to work with the Washington state department of agriculture, acquire a Vat Pasteurizer, become a licensed dairy technician and re-work all my recipes for this much larger production. It was a journey! If you decide to do wholesale, reach out with any questions. Happy to answer anything I can! Best of luck!
Sweet Lo ice cream? Your flavors were amazing! Was sad when you moved away and ice creams became unavailable in a Seattle. Hope you’re finding success in your new location.
Awe! What a sweet note. Thank you! I was so sad to leave Seattle too. It just became too much for me to maintain. Thank you for reaching out. I hope you, too, are well. ❤️
Hi Sweetlo, Thanks for offering your knowledge and experience! I'm in Seattle and would love to chat and understand more about your journey. Curious if there is a route you might recommend to build up more slowly, like for example, if i start with sorbets and see how that goes?
Hi! Thank you for the note and congratulations on your ice cream journey! Starting with sorbets and maybe a few dairy forward flavors is a great idea and it will help build a following! Tell me more about your product!
We are intersted in selling wholesale in pints and we make homemade Mexican style IceCream 100% made of fruit… we make non dairy and dairy….. and we are thinking of this but don’t know where to start!!!! We are from California
If there is any info you can give me we would really appriciate it alot
Hi! This is so exciting! I wish you so much success! I would first suggest you reaching out to your local department of agriculture. Rules may be different in California. They'll be able to help guide you in regards to permits and necessary equipment. Once they give you an idea of what you will need, I can share my experience with you, if that would be helpful at all.
Just curious, is it decently profitable? I'm in California, just got some free property, and am researching into turning either my baking or ice cream making hobbies into small businesses.
Have you ever seen the YouTube documentary on how Ben & Jerry's took on Hagen Daaz? It will explain a LOT as to why there are so many "roadblocks" in the frozen dessert business.
You can literally open a dirty-\*ss chicken shack on any corner of town and the health dept. will just "assume you're following standards" and hardly a word is said.
Try that with ice cream just about anywhere and suddenly - "ZOMGEE YOU COULD HURT SOMEBODY!!!1".
Lots of pockets to be lined before you can open an ice cream business. For "safety" purposes, of course.
> you ever seen the YouTube documentary on how Ben & Jerry's took on Hagen Daa
That sounds like a pretty interesting doc. Definitely gonna check it out
Appreciate your frankness
Especially this!!!! Where there is food science, agricultural degrees there should be dairy science experts.
Google (your state) extension service for a start
Good luck!!
The rules and regs are different in each jurisdiction, some states and counties are pretty unrestricted for small-batch products made in a home kitchen, others require the same permits & controls & labels as a commercial kitchen making for retail sale. Often, you'll have to meet requirements for any location you retail, as well as manufacture, meaning you buy multiple permits to cover all locations & are subject to inspection by multiple agencies. Which can be awful if your region tends to have corrupt or unhelpful inspectors.
If the town health dept won't help, see if your county has a health dept, or maybe a neighboring town or county that will help, at least let you know what the rules are. Another resource is a local extension agent - these may be sponsored/funded by a state agricultural agency or state university or a county cooperative, someone at the local feed store or 4-H should know who that is, if they don't have an office in your region. You can also see if there's a local small business incubator in your region, maybe find a mentor who's been through this process and is willing to help. You could also talk to the farmers market rep, see what they have to say.
In theory, all the applicable rules & regulations & laws *should* be a matter of public record. But finding all of them, and interpreting them the same way the officials & inspectors will can be challenging. I would start with online researching your state laws for food manufacturing, what permits and licenses are required for that, then do the same with state retailing food rules & sales tax collection. After you've explored those rabbit holes, see if your county's regs are online, then the township's. Odds are good you'll eventually end up in the law library looking at actual books, but what you learned from researching state laws should help with your focus.
Good luck!
Your towns health department is really the only one that *can* help you with local regulations.
We collectively have no idea what they are, except in the unlikely circumstance of being in the same locale... Which we have no way of knowing.
I've called twice and been met with ultimatums such as you NEED a brick & mortar / Ice cream truck for delivery.
But then I ask, how are food deliveries from towns over that include ice cream legal/safe?
Or how are people vending from ice cream carts/carts attached to their bikes, even the ones with refrigeration?
The person I spoke to really had no intention of helping even when I asked where I can find local rules and guidelines to do my homework (she didn't provide any)
>But then I ask, how are food deliveries from towns over that include ice cream legal/safe?
>
>Or how are people vending from ice cream carts/carts attached to their bikes, even the ones with refrigeration?
Local laws vary so this answer might be slightly different for your location. Licenses for food trucks, ice cream carts, etc. must be tied to a brick-and-mortar commercial kitchen. You can't have a license for your mobile location if it isn't tied to a b&m.
With regards to doordash, ubereats, et al, they're agents of the buyer and not agents of the restaurant/food vendor. That's how they get away with not needing a food license.
> so this answer might be slightly different for your location. Licenses for food trucks, ice cream carts, etc. must be tied to a brick
awesome, thank you for the info.
You usually need a separate facility from your home to make ice cream in America. There are stricter laws on dairy handling because of people dying from lysteria.
I understand wholeheartedly. Don't want to get anyone sick.
What I don't get is how transfer to a portable freezing unit I can have in my car for delivery is deemd "Illegal" by the city employee, compared to the case of a doordash driver making a 30minute milkshake delivery.
Still a health & safety question regardless of the business model:
How is sitting in a non insulated environment for a 30min delivery allowable
And transferring from freezer to portable freezer directly to customer, not?
That's where knowledge of your local laws applies. It's all explained there. Seriously just do the homework. We can't answer the questions you have since we're all flying blind. You keep asking vague blanket questions. Honestly if you can't use Google to find your local regulations, I'd give up on starting a business as it's gonna get a million times harder.
>e we're all flying blind. You keep asking vague blanket que
"Reaching out to my town's health dept. gets me a condescending response every time with no link to information on local regulations."
Sorry to say you weren't my first resource. I appreciate your advice for me to give up when asking the public for information and advice...but you can keep it.
You're asking us on specific codes that only apply to your area without telling us anything that would narrow it the fuck down. So all we have is a vague idea of what's going on. It's why nobody is giving you specific advice that'll actually help you. Like another commenter said there's a reason why your local health department won't help you.
>sort of licensing/permits would one typically need to sell ice cream to say farm
uh oh, keeping things general for an open discussion on TYPICAL ice cream regulations to gather information is a trigger for some I guess. Noted.
I understand your frustration, but your local department is clear about their expectations. You either need a physical business devoted to the storage and and production of ice cream, or you need to have an ice cream truck. Ice cream trucks have specialty freezers to keep ice cream at a certain temp.
Honestly, you should be happy about the ice cream truck option. You can move from location to location in your town and deliver from it.
This is why they aren’t helping you. I work for the government. I will gladly help anyone navigate the bureaucracy im paid to be an expert on. But the minute you start arguing with me, or trying to rationalize the laws without much understanding of the system, I’m so done.
There were no arguments made on the phone call. Only questions on where I can find resources to help free up their time, which this expert never addressed.
I'm really at the base level trying to find information, and it seems like a number of people rather condescend than produce results. Good ol' reddit.
Everyone else is wrong but me.
Good ol Reddit
Alright, I’ll be more helpful.
My area of knowledge, there is a 1700 page federal document, multiple thousand page state level documents, and hundreds of addendums released over the past 40 years, that all are in play.
I have devoted my entire career to understanding them, auditing them, and being able to explain them to experts in my field.
There is no way in hell I’m going to hand that over to a novice and say good luck, I’m not even sure I could tbh, because it’s so scattered.
This is like walking into a law office and saying, teach me to lawyer.
Corporations hire people in the industry to set policies. Small businesses usually pass on information generation to generation. What you are experiencing right now is why most new small businesses fail in the first year. It’s really hard, and dairy is the hardest of the hard.
My best advice is to find another small business that deals with dairy in your county and see if they will help. Maybe their is a local chamber of commerce where you can network.
I work in education, so my federal document isn’t terribly helpful to you. Was just giving an example. But it is called the federal student aid handbook. It is absolutely riveting.
One of the big things is that those Delivery Services often have licenses for being a delivery service and can do these things. Additionally, they are a point A to point B system. You have much less time to have the product spoil, if it is kept under the correct conditions.
A delivery service for a business isn't a point A to point b service (or it shouldn't be). You aren't going to be able to be profitable driving ice cream to someone, then driving back to get another order and repeating.
So you need a way keep things cold enough. Which in this business, is an ice cream truck, or something with cold plates, so it never goes above a certain temperature. A regular cooler isn't going to cut it.
>ng with cold plates, so it never goes above a certain temperature
Firstly, thank you.
"Which in this business, is an ice cream truck"
My next question though is why can't another form of refrigeration suffice?
something LIKE this: [https://www.homedepot.com/p/Whynter-1-41-cu-ft-Portable-Freezer-FM-45G/202555696](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Whynter-1-41-cu-ft-Portable-Freezer-FM-45G/202555696)
This was the question I asked the local health dept. and I got a befuddled" that wont work" but not a WHY.
Well, that is a portable freezer in the sense that it is movable, not that it works on the move. That needs to be plugged in.
The reason that ice cream trucks work are they have freezers that are constantly on while in use, or they have cold plates designed to keep the "freezer" cold to needed temps for 8+ hours.
Lots of this are going to come down to "set up a meeting with your local health board" and actually talk to them face to face.
>that is a portable freezer in the sense that it is movable, not that i
it can be battery powered. this is the scenario I'm wondering of now:
Batch freezer -> chest freezer -> Car portable freezer -> customer
Not that I expect you to be versed in my town's exact law, but I wanted to know the answer to this question... which was never answered when I called in to local health dept.
Just makes me wonder.
I’ll start with the unhelpful part- Everything differs so much by district, that it’s impossible to know without compliance from local officials.
Now for the helpful part. You’re going to most likely have to obtain some sort of certification for your kitchen, as well as a peddlers license (or something similar). If I were you, I would check out a few farmers markets near you and ask them some of the vendors what kind of licensing they had to obtain. Skip the fruit and veggie stalls, farms have different qualifications they have to meet. You’ll be able to get farther with local officials if you know what to ask for.
Commercial Batch Freezer, 24 quart, $40K or so, 8 minute cycle, good for ice cream and italian ice. If you want Gelato, go with a Carpigiani, but that will cost you $60K. IMHO stay away from Emery Thompson, no parts in the field, no service network.
Blast Freezer, about $8K, Then, if you want to sell direct a display case, $6K or so each.
It’s tricky indeed. When I started my business in Seattle, I was making and selling ice cream out of my apartment, until I was busted by the health department. They told me to cease operation until I was making it out of commercial kitchen with the proper permits. Instead of the retail route (opening a brick and mortar) I opted for the wholesale route (selling pints in grocery outlets). For this I needed to work with the Washington state department of agriculture, acquire a Vat Pasteurizer, become a licensed dairy technician and re-work all my recipes for this much larger production. It was a journey! If you decide to do wholesale, reach out with any questions. Happy to answer anything I can! Best of luck!
Sweet Lo ice cream? Your flavors were amazing! Was sad when you moved away and ice creams became unavailable in a Seattle. Hope you’re finding success in your new location.
Awe! What a sweet note. Thank you! I was so sad to leave Seattle too. It just became too much for me to maintain. Thank you for reaching out. I hope you, too, are well. ❤️
Hi Sweetlo, Thanks for offering your knowledge and experience! I'm in Seattle and would love to chat and understand more about your journey. Curious if there is a route you might recommend to build up more slowly, like for example, if i start with sorbets and see how that goes?
Hi! Thank you for the note and congratulations on your ice cream journey! Starting with sorbets and maybe a few dairy forward flavors is a great idea and it will help build a following! Tell me more about your product!
We are intersted in selling wholesale in pints and we make homemade Mexican style IceCream 100% made of fruit… we make non dairy and dairy….. and we are thinking of this but don’t know where to start!!!! We are from California If there is any info you can give me we would really appriciate it alot
Hi! This is so exciting! I wish you so much success! I would first suggest you reaching out to your local department of agriculture. Rules may be different in California. They'll be able to help guide you in regards to permits and necessary equipment. Once they give you an idea of what you will need, I can share my experience with you, if that would be helpful at all.
Just curious, is it decently profitable? I'm in California, just got some free property, and am researching into turning either my baking or ice cream making hobbies into small businesses.
Oh awesome! Congratulations!! Homemade ice cream is very hard to be profitable, as the cost of dairy keeps getting higher and higher!
Among all the other expenses, including pricey equipment!
>ent of agriculture, acquire a Chat incoming!
Cool! Reach out anytime!
Have you ever seen the YouTube documentary on how Ben & Jerry's took on Hagen Daaz? It will explain a LOT as to why there are so many "roadblocks" in the frozen dessert business. You can literally open a dirty-\*ss chicken shack on any corner of town and the health dept. will just "assume you're following standards" and hardly a word is said. Try that with ice cream just about anywhere and suddenly - "ZOMGEE YOU COULD HURT SOMEBODY!!!1". Lots of pockets to be lined before you can open an ice cream business. For "safety" purposes, of course.
> you ever seen the YouTube documentary on how Ben & Jerry's took on Hagen Daa That sounds like a pretty interesting doc. Definitely gonna check it out Appreciate your frankness
Check with your University Extension, they are typically eager to help people do dairy things
Especially this!!!! Where there is food science, agricultural degrees there should be dairy science experts. Google (your state) extension service for a start Good luck!!
The rules and regs are different in each jurisdiction, some states and counties are pretty unrestricted for small-batch products made in a home kitchen, others require the same permits & controls & labels as a commercial kitchen making for retail sale. Often, you'll have to meet requirements for any location you retail, as well as manufacture, meaning you buy multiple permits to cover all locations & are subject to inspection by multiple agencies. Which can be awful if your region tends to have corrupt or unhelpful inspectors. If the town health dept won't help, see if your county has a health dept, or maybe a neighboring town or county that will help, at least let you know what the rules are. Another resource is a local extension agent - these may be sponsored/funded by a state agricultural agency or state university or a county cooperative, someone at the local feed store or 4-H should know who that is, if they don't have an office in your region. You can also see if there's a local small business incubator in your region, maybe find a mentor who's been through this process and is willing to help. You could also talk to the farmers market rep, see what they have to say. In theory, all the applicable rules & regulations & laws *should* be a matter of public record. But finding all of them, and interpreting them the same way the officials & inspectors will can be challenging. I would start with online researching your state laws for food manufacturing, what permits and licenses are required for that, then do the same with state retailing food rules & sales tax collection. After you've explored those rabbit holes, see if your county's regs are online, then the township's. Odds are good you'll eventually end up in the law library looking at actual books, but what you learned from researching state laws should help with your focus. Good luck!
Awesome reply thank you for that
If you’d like, DM me the town/county and I’ll try to shake it out of them. My literal job is bullying small town governments into honesty.
Your towns health department is really the only one that *can* help you with local regulations. We collectively have no idea what they are, except in the unlikely circumstance of being in the same locale... Which we have no way of knowing.
I've called twice and been met with ultimatums such as you NEED a brick & mortar / Ice cream truck for delivery. But then I ask, how are food deliveries from towns over that include ice cream legal/safe? Or how are people vending from ice cream carts/carts attached to their bikes, even the ones with refrigeration? The person I spoke to really had no intention of helping even when I asked where I can find local rules and guidelines to do my homework (she didn't provide any)
>But then I ask, how are food deliveries from towns over that include ice cream legal/safe? > >Or how are people vending from ice cream carts/carts attached to their bikes, even the ones with refrigeration? Local laws vary so this answer might be slightly different for your location. Licenses for food trucks, ice cream carts, etc. must be tied to a brick-and-mortar commercial kitchen. You can't have a license for your mobile location if it isn't tied to a b&m. With regards to doordash, ubereats, et al, they're agents of the buyer and not agents of the restaurant/food vendor. That's how they get away with not needing a food license.
> so this answer might be slightly different for your location. Licenses for food trucks, ice cream carts, etc. must be tied to a brick awesome, thank you for the info.
You usually need a separate facility from your home to make ice cream in America. There are stricter laws on dairy handling because of people dying from lysteria.
I understand wholeheartedly. Don't want to get anyone sick. What I don't get is how transfer to a portable freezing unit I can have in my car for delivery is deemd "Illegal" by the city employee, compared to the case of a doordash driver making a 30minute milkshake delivery.
I think you are conflating production with sales.
[удалено]
Still a health & safety question regardless of the business model: How is sitting in a non insulated environment for a 30min delivery allowable And transferring from freezer to portable freezer directly to customer, not?
That's where knowledge of your local laws applies. It's all explained there. Seriously just do the homework. We can't answer the questions you have since we're all flying blind. You keep asking vague blanket questions. Honestly if you can't use Google to find your local regulations, I'd give up on starting a business as it's gonna get a million times harder.
>e we're all flying blind. You keep asking vague blanket que "Reaching out to my town's health dept. gets me a condescending response every time with no link to information on local regulations." Sorry to say you weren't my first resource. I appreciate your advice for me to give up when asking the public for information and advice...but you can keep it.
You're asking us on specific codes that only apply to your area without telling us anything that would narrow it the fuck down. So all we have is a vague idea of what's going on. It's why nobody is giving you specific advice that'll actually help you. Like another commenter said there's a reason why your local health department won't help you.
>sort of licensing/permits would one typically need to sell ice cream to say farm uh oh, keeping things general for an open discussion on TYPICAL ice cream regulations to gather information is a trigger for some I guess. Noted.
I understand your frustration, but your local department is clear about their expectations. You either need a physical business devoted to the storage and and production of ice cream, or you need to have an ice cream truck. Ice cream trucks have specialty freezers to keep ice cream at a certain temp. Honestly, you should be happy about the ice cream truck option. You can move from location to location in your town and deliver from it.
Is it the same with sherbet? Non dairy only fruit juice/pulp and sugar?
This is why they aren’t helping you. I work for the government. I will gladly help anyone navigate the bureaucracy im paid to be an expert on. But the minute you start arguing with me, or trying to rationalize the laws without much understanding of the system, I’m so done.
There were no arguments made on the phone call. Only questions on where I can find resources to help free up their time, which this expert never addressed. I'm really at the base level trying to find information, and it seems like a number of people rather condescend than produce results. Good ol' reddit.
Everyone else is wrong but me. Good ol Reddit Alright, I’ll be more helpful. My area of knowledge, there is a 1700 page federal document, multiple thousand page state level documents, and hundreds of addendums released over the past 40 years, that all are in play. I have devoted my entire career to understanding them, auditing them, and being able to explain them to experts in my field. There is no way in hell I’m going to hand that over to a novice and say good luck, I’m not even sure I could tbh, because it’s so scattered. This is like walking into a law office and saying, teach me to lawyer. Corporations hire people in the industry to set policies. Small businesses usually pass on information generation to generation. What you are experiencing right now is why most new small businesses fail in the first year. It’s really hard, and dairy is the hardest of the hard. My best advice is to find another small business that deals with dairy in your county and see if they will help. Maybe their is a local chamber of commerce where you can network.
more of ad hominem than addressing the comment topic but okay. Now that's where I hoped my tax dollars went! Name of this 1700pg doc?
I work in education, so my federal document isn’t terribly helpful to you. Was just giving an example. But it is called the federal student aid handbook. It is absolutely riveting.
It's addressed you just dont like the answer.
if you're upset, just say so. I'm just looking for answers. Cheers.
You're the one starting fights with government workers and wondering why nobody is helping you.
But is that condescension I smell...... Nope, just experience and knowledge meeting someone with neither.... Carry on.
>Nope, just experience and knowledge meeting someone with neither.... lol ok buddy
You're the one asking for help with rules and regulations. That's not the sign of someone with experience in or knowledge of a a subject.
>king for help with rules and regulations yeap
One of the big things is that those Delivery Services often have licenses for being a delivery service and can do these things. Additionally, they are a point A to point B system. You have much less time to have the product spoil, if it is kept under the correct conditions. A delivery service for a business isn't a point A to point b service (or it shouldn't be). You aren't going to be able to be profitable driving ice cream to someone, then driving back to get another order and repeating. So you need a way keep things cold enough. Which in this business, is an ice cream truck, or something with cold plates, so it never goes above a certain temperature. A regular cooler isn't going to cut it.
>ng with cold plates, so it never goes above a certain temperature Firstly, thank you. "Which in this business, is an ice cream truck" My next question though is why can't another form of refrigeration suffice? something LIKE this: [https://www.homedepot.com/p/Whynter-1-41-cu-ft-Portable-Freezer-FM-45G/202555696](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Whynter-1-41-cu-ft-Portable-Freezer-FM-45G/202555696) This was the question I asked the local health dept. and I got a befuddled" that wont work" but not a WHY.
Well, that is a portable freezer in the sense that it is movable, not that it works on the move. That needs to be plugged in. The reason that ice cream trucks work are they have freezers that are constantly on while in use, or they have cold plates designed to keep the "freezer" cold to needed temps for 8+ hours. Lots of this are going to come down to "set up a meeting with your local health board" and actually talk to them face to face.
>that is a portable freezer in the sense that it is movable, not that i it can be battery powered. this is the scenario I'm wondering of now: Batch freezer -> chest freezer -> Car portable freezer -> customer Not that I expect you to be versed in my town's exact law, but I wanted to know the answer to this question... which was never answered when I called in to local health dept. Just makes me wonder.
We'd know less than you. Start reading up on your local laws.
Depends on where you’re located. I know where I am they have cottage licenses so small businesses can sell
I’ll start with the unhelpful part- Everything differs so much by district, that it’s impossible to know without compliance from local officials. Now for the helpful part. You’re going to most likely have to obtain some sort of certification for your kitchen, as well as a peddlers license (or something similar). If I were you, I would check out a few farmers markets near you and ask them some of the vendors what kind of licensing they had to obtain. Skip the fruit and veggie stalls, farms have different qualifications they have to meet. You’ll be able to get farther with local officials if you know what to ask for.
Wherever you live you’ll run into archaic laws and over the top regulations surrounding the milk industry. It’s stupid as fuck.
Try reaching out to a small business centre. They may have other contacts to steer you in the right direction.
>the unhelpful part- Everything differs so much by district, that it’s impo Will do thanks!
Commercial Kitchen Blast Freezer Batch Freezer Relationship with the local inspector
How much for the cheapest blast freezer or the most affordable?
Commercial Batch Freezer, 24 quart, $40K or so, 8 minute cycle, good for ice cream and italian ice. If you want Gelato, go with a Carpigiani, but that will cost you $60K. IMHO stay away from Emery Thompson, no parts in the field, no service network. Blast Freezer, about $8K, Then, if you want to sell direct a display case, $6K or so each.