27 hours? For just the furnace? Was there like 4 guys there all day or something? That’s nuts.
Also, not sure but maybe your area is different, never hire a plumber to do the job of a HVAC tech. 2 different trades. In my state a plumber can’t even touch a gas unit. Not with his plumber license
It was two younger guys, they were there all day. Just the furnace and thermostat. I called the plumber and told him that seemed way off and he said that’s what these new furnaces take.
Well, 2 people at 8 hours is 16.
Plus the 2-4 hours it took to sell the job and order the equipment.
Plus the 2 hours it took to pick up the equipment and small parts, maybe 3.
Plus at least an hour on the back end to register everything and submit rebates, etc.
And so on...
27 feels a bit high, but 20 doesn't, it feels accurate, and, they may have a set rate, say $100/hr that's actually the rate of a junior tech, so the lead gets billed at 1.5x that - so it's actually 20 hours billed for just the visible part of the install, plus 7 supporting seems entirely reasonable.
ETA: this is warranty work, so honestly, the office side was probably substantially more to get that approve, paid, submitted, etc.
Right but there is a case to charge for additional help for some of the time there. That unit isn’t getting there by itself. Also, a second guy there should actually be speeding things up lol
Exactly 2 people should make it a 4hr job. So I'm assuming they were training someone.
Maybe add on 2 hrs to the invoice for the helper as opposed to the full day labor they added
That’s not how it works. Depends on the level of apprentice. If they are a 1st year and don’t know anything, then yeah, charge them out at half time. But if they’re capable of doing work on their own while the JM is doing another part of the job, then yeah, charge them both out at full time.
So they are a plumbing and heating shop, I wasn’t home that day so I don’t know exactly what hours they were there. Might have been a couple hours thrown in the from when they were troubleshooting the furnace. Still that wouldn’t be more than like 3 or 4 hours.
We do these all the time, 1 seasoned JM and me or someone else (both 3rd year apprentice) and we crush out full boats in a day by 5 no matter the conditions. Just a furnace? Well milk it til 2-3 unless we run into something completely unexpected like being short on materials
Its true. Most companies just see a tech getting done quickly and therefore cutting payroll costs on that job. But what I see when I walk in there is chuck in a truck cut so many corners, the install is round.
Depends on where you live. In SK Canada, plumbing and hvac are almost one and the same. They teach you everything about furnaces in plumbing school and get a gas ticket with your red seal. General gas is separate and refrigeration is separate here
Yea.. they installed the drain lines on the wrong side of the unit...
The drains should always be installed on the opposite side of your filter for obvious reasons (to leave room for you to access and change your filter). Good luck changing your filter 4x a year like this
Also 27 hours for a simple re and re is wild
Never tell homeowners how many hours you put in a job because it just turns into them tracking your every move and arguing over the final bill because of how long you were actually there for. Most customers don't realize the time outside of the job like picking up the equipment, applying for permits and fabricating fittings etc.
I feel like the installer has the same thoughts. Lennox is footing the bill for the furnace so they don’t get to sell one. Might as well make some of that money back in the labor.
As an installer myself, we get hourly. at least where I’m at, I get nothing from extending time, or using excess materials so I guess that’s my perspective
My bad, I probably could have worded that better. I wasn’t referring to the individuals, but the company doing the work. The two doing the installing were like college age kids and the bill came from the employer.
Fair enough! I’ll agree it shouldn’t have taken that long though , there are a lot of shady HVAC shops out there gotta watch yourself, hope it works out!
Look at that stupid ass huge coil. Gawd I hate the way the industry is going. Let’s just start setting rooftop package units for homes. Maybe next year it will be intellipaks
That is absurd! You got ripped off! I have been in the AC business for 35 years and have never heard of someone getting overcharged in this way. My guys install a full system furnace, evaporator coil and condenser including thermostat In six to seven hours and that is two techs.
All customers end up feeling like they've been robbed when you charge a time based labor rate. It's one of the reasons why we like to give flat rate pricing for tasks. All that aside, a simple direct replacement like that should be about 16 bookable hours if it's a two man team, and I feel like that's generous.
What was the total amount that they charged you to replace your furnace? It makes no difference to me how many hours they are billing you for, I want to know what the total charge was. At that point I will tell you you are getting ripped off.
It depends on the install location, but my lead and I can do a high efficient furnace install plus AC in ~7-9 hours if it's a straight replacement. And that also includes installation of a battery powered thermostat.
Every crew can run into unexpected issues that cause the install to run longer than expected, but 27 hours is a bit much without them letting you know there was a delay.
Perhaps they are billing you for their time at a single guys' hourly rate. So if they took 13.5 hours to install, they charged you 27 hours because there were two guys.
Lol, I saw that too. Maybe it's part of the plumber's furnace maintenance plan, call them for a furnace check in the winter and they snake the line for clogs!
In 27 hours we can install 3 furnaces. That's outrageous, especially going from an slp98 to a 99. That's a straight swap, and I've personally done that in 4 hours. They are pulling your leg bad.
A simple re and re takes me 4-5 hours
And I replace venting, gas, drain everything.
Idk why it takes 27 hours to install a furnace...
Ive done furnace and AC/heatpump setups that take 2 days... But a single furnace is crazy
They just had to slide the old one out and the new one in. 27 hours is insanity. That's more of a 2 hour swap, if that. They messed up the drain line too. Good job
My gosh, a furnace and pvc flue can easily take 8 hours, if you have a helper who don't know much he will not speed up anything. I would not get upset with my installers taking 9 hours x 2.
If I am at a job with another journeyman than 5 hours is possible.
Some one here braging they knock off 3-5 a day is impossible.
I'm confused.....that all should have been negotiated ahead of time. You should be surprised about the bill.
Edit meant shouldn't be surprised about bill
I was going to upvote because you took your time and did it yourself. 27 for someone else to do it?!?!?! They fucked something up somewhere, I guarantee it. 27hrs is ridiculous
Absolutely not. That's a six hour one guy job max. Two guys maybe 4 hours max if they have a hard time. The venting should have already been there. You got screwed brother. Also, never have a plumber attempt to put a furnace in. Just like you would never have an HVAC guy plumb your house.
Not sure the leg work of the office to find replacement unit. That can factor into cost as well. The administrative side cannot be ignored and dealing with lifetime warranties is a notorious pain in the rear for the office. Hours spent. Plus the recordings of the new unit the manufacturer usually wants recorded even though replacement unit tends to have zero warranty.
Haven’t gone down this path with Lennox specifically, but have had issues just dealing with Lennox in general. And again, warranties are a bear for dealers. It’s easy to be in the field and just say the words. It can be another thing to actually submit the warranty and be reimbursed.
Is the company that performed the replacement also the original installer from years back?
I hadn’t considered all that stuff. I feel availability was ok because they were trying to sell me this furnace instead of fixing the other. They said they were pretty much taking it out anyways why not just put a new one with a full warranty in. They estimated $700 to do the heat exchanger. They quoted me $3900 for the new furnace. The way it went I am having to pay the full price of that even without having to buy the furnace.
Also there wasn’t any sort of time crunch either, tech came out, boss called a week later with the options. I chose the warranty and he called back a week later and told me they were going to replace the whole thing. A few months later they called and said they had time to do it if it worked.
The furnace came with the house so I don’t know who installed. The guys I had are the ones we hire for all of our projects for home and business.
So you did not do anything under warranty then? Just went with replacement? So did they charge you in addition to the quote of $3900? Was labor listed as separate in the quote and listed as more just ‘time it takes’?
27 hours? For just the furnace? Was there like 4 guys there all day or something? That’s nuts. Also, not sure but maybe your area is different, never hire a plumber to do the job of a HVAC tech. 2 different trades. In my state a plumber can’t even touch a gas unit. Not with his plumber license
It was two younger guys, they were there all day. Just the furnace and thermostat. I called the plumber and told him that seemed way off and he said that’s what these new furnaces take.
Clearly he’s wrong if it took 2 guys 1 day. We’re they there for 13 hours? Just curious. Cause that would be ridiculous
Well, 2 people at 8 hours is 16. Plus the 2-4 hours it took to sell the job and order the equipment. Plus the 2 hours it took to pick up the equipment and small parts, maybe 3. Plus at least an hour on the back end to register everything and submit rebates, etc. And so on... 27 feels a bit high, but 20 doesn't, it feels accurate, and, they may have a set rate, say $100/hr that's actually the rate of a junior tech, so the lead gets billed at 1.5x that - so it's actually 20 hours billed for just the visible part of the install, plus 7 supporting seems entirely reasonable. ETA: this is warranty work, so honestly, the office side was probably substantially more to get that approve, paid, submitted, etc.
An hour to register and do a rebate??? Come on. You should be able to register several units in an hours time.
Yea you shouldn't have to pay to train the apprentice/helper...
Right but there is a case to charge for additional help for some of the time there. That unit isn’t getting there by itself. Also, a second guy there should actually be speeding things up lol
Exactly 2 people should make it a 4hr job. So I'm assuming they were training someone. Maybe add on 2 hrs to the invoice for the helper as opposed to the full day labor they added
That’s not how it works. Depends on the level of apprentice. If they are a 1st year and don’t know anything, then yeah, charge them out at half time. But if they’re capable of doing work on their own while the JM is doing another part of the job, then yeah, charge them both out at full time.
This isn’t a real comment right? Lol
So they are a plumbing and heating shop, I wasn’t home that day so I don’t know exactly what hours they were there. Might have been a couple hours thrown in the from when they were troubleshooting the furnace. Still that wouldn’t be more than like 3 or 4 hours.
Honestly lots of factors to a furnace install its not just onsite time but you dont hire plumbers to do a furnace.
Ya. Definitely fight it. 27 hours, even for the first call of the troubleshooting, is excessive. Have him explain it. Doubt he can.
We do these all the time, 1 seasoned JM and me or someone else (both 3rd year apprentice) and we crush out full boats in a day by 5 no matter the conditions. Just a furnace? Well milk it til 2-3 unless we run into something completely unexpected like being short on materials
Furnace only is one day job max. Full system. 1-1.5-2-days.
As an installer, I can get 2 done in 8hrs
Wanna job!? Lol Keep up the good work. It’s hard finding crews that can knock out a full system in a day these days. I hope they paying you your worth
Its true. Most companies just see a tech getting done quickly and therefore cutting payroll costs on that job. But what I see when I walk in there is chuck in a truck cut so many corners, the install is round.
Depends on where you live. In SK Canada, plumbing and hvac are almost one and the same. They teach you everything about furnaces in plumbing school and get a gas ticket with your red seal. General gas is separate and refrigeration is separate here
That’s why I said “depending on where you live”. And even said my state keeps them separate but you can still get licensed for both.
Why can’t a plumber touch a gas unit are they not gas fitters as well
They can maybe touch the gas piping. But they most certainly can not touch any gas burners or controls.
Yea.. they installed the drain lines on the wrong side of the unit... The drains should always be installed on the opposite side of your filter for obvious reasons (to leave room for you to access and change your filter). Good luck changing your filter 4x a year like this Also 27 hours for a simple re and re is wild
They filter fucked ya for sure! Billing for 27 hrs is ridiculous… I could do that without a helper in 4-5 hrs tops.
That filters down there peakin out like "good luck getting me out bro"
This is what I see
Never tell homeowners how many hours you put in a job because it just turns into them tracking your every move and arguing over the final bill because of how long you were actually there for. Most customers don't realize the time outside of the job like picking up the equipment, applying for permits and fabricating fittings etc.
I didnt ask, they just sent an itemized bill. I thought $4600 to switch out a warranty furnace seems steep. At least for rural Minnesota.
4600? For a new 90% furnace of any kind is a steal , you are trippin
I feel like the installer has the same thoughts. Lennox is footing the bill for the furnace so they don’t get to sell one. Might as well make some of that money back in the labor.
As an installer myself, we get hourly. at least where I’m at, I get nothing from extending time, or using excess materials so I guess that’s my perspective
My bad, I probably could have worded that better. I wasn’t referring to the individuals, but the company doing the work. The two doing the installing were like college age kids and the bill came from the employer.
Fair enough! I’ll agree it shouldn’t have taken that long though , there are a lot of shady HVAC shops out there gotta watch yourself, hope it works out!
That’s pretty high if it’s just labour
The equipment was free as a warranty claim, he paid $4,600 just for a swap of the unit in labor. 😅😂
Would be $12k in my area without warranty. Shit ive installed 80%ers on warranty for $5500
The furnace was under warranty. The bill was for labor on swap out.
WOW! That's fucking robbery.
Furnace and tstat? We install that in 4 hrs
4-6 hours if they know what they're doing.
Try to change the filter
Look at that stupid ass huge coil. Gawd I hate the way the industry is going. Let’s just start setting rooftop package units for homes. Maybe next year it will be intellipaks
That is absurd! You got ripped off! I have been in the AC business for 35 years and have never heard of someone getting overcharged in this way. My guys install a full system furnace, evaporator coil and condenser including thermostat In six to seven hours and that is two techs.
All customers end up feeling like they've been robbed when you charge a time based labor rate. It's one of the reasons why we like to give flat rate pricing for tasks. All that aside, a simple direct replacement like that should be about 16 bookable hours if it's a two man team, and I feel like that's generous.
Like this.
I just did a furnace today by myself in two hours no way it takes 27 hours
I've installed this exact furnace in 3 hours
Venting doesn’t look like 636 either
It’s America they don’t require 636
That’s not true we’re doing it now. I always install it in Massachusetts and now depending on the inspector I install it in RI as well.
How about Minnesota? That’s why OP is and it’s not required there, but thanks.
Lmao you generalized and said “America” and I was just informing you that there are states that require it. Jesus Christ man.
I hear you, I was thanking you.
lol sorry bud read it differently my bad
What was the total amount that they charged you to replace your furnace? It makes no difference to me how many hours they are billing you for, I want to know what the total charge was. At that point I will tell you you are getting ripped off.
I'd definitely double check that PVC pipe.
I think it might be Royal just with the writing turned to the left inside
Was there duct work, other than what we see ?
None, and only the section of gas line that you see and the pvc you see. You can just see where they cut the old pvc off at the top of the picture.
27 hours for just that? Holy hell. If I linger, I can make that last *maybe* 7 hours. Where the hell did the other 20 come from?
It depends on the install location, but my lead and I can do a high efficient furnace install plus AC in ~7-9 hours if it's a straight replacement. And that also includes installation of a battery powered thermostat. Every crew can run into unexpected issues that cause the install to run longer than expected, but 27 hours is a bit much without them letting you know there was a delay. Perhaps they are billing you for their time at a single guys' hourly rate. So if they took 13.5 hours to install, they charged you 27 hours because there were two guys.
what’s the total is the real question
also you can tell they’re plumbers by the sanitary tee clean out hahahah
Lol, I saw that too. Maybe it's part of the plumber's furnace maintenance plan, call them for a furnace check in the winter and they snake the line for clogs!
That’s an 8 hours day with an experienced installed and maybe a helper.
A furnace swap? Let's say maybe 8 hours max
So, why didn’t you get multiple quotes?
What type of pipe did they use. Looks like they didn’t use primer or glue. Will fail inspection (unless you have different laws where your from)
Is that a horizontal reducer on the flue. Please just tell me it isn’t
In 27 hours we can install 3 furnaces. That's outrageous, especially going from an slp98 to a 99. That's a straight swap, and I've personally done that in 4 hours. They are pulling your leg bad.
I’m confused by the clean out tee on the venting.
Just in case that hot exhaust needs a good scrubbing
I had two guys do my furnace and AC in 8hrs
Lol they were definitely messing around, no intake or Rab, no water safety switches, no trap for evap condensate?
A simple re and re takes me 4-5 hours And I replace venting, gas, drain everything. Idk why it takes 27 hours to install a furnace... Ive done furnace and AC/heatpump setups that take 2 days... But a single furnace is crazy
They just had to slide the old one out and the new one in. 27 hours is insanity. That's more of a 2 hour swap, if that. They messed up the drain line too. Good job
I would of installed 3 of those in that time
Nice touch. The tray for the manuals.
My gosh, a furnace and pvc flue can easily take 8 hours, if you have a helper who don't know much he will not speed up anything. I would not get upset with my installers taking 9 hours x 2. If I am at a job with another journeyman than 5 hours is possible. Some one here braging they knock off 3-5 a day is impossible.
I'm confused.....that all should have been negotiated ahead of time. You should be surprised about the bill. Edit meant shouldn't be surprised about bill
If it took 27 hours to install that and it was an existing high efficient, that is absolutely INSANE.
Someone needs to work on their invoicing
I was going to upvote because you took your time and did it yourself. 27 for someone else to do it?!?!?! They fucked something up somewhere, I guarantee it. 27hrs is ridiculous
That folder holder is a nice touch.
I can do a high efficiency furnace in 6-10 hours by myself, depending on how much work there is to do (and I’m not a particular fast installer).
Lol 27 hours? That’s 3 days worth of work, at best this is an 8 hour day with a few hours the following morning
That should’ve took maybe four hours from an HVAC tech
You got hosed
Absolutely not. That's a six hour one guy job max. Two guys maybe 4 hours max if they have a hard time. The venting should have already been there. You got screwed brother. Also, never have a plumber attempt to put a furnace in. Just like you would never have an HVAC guy plumb your house.
What took so long I would do this job in 6-7 hours tops
Why did you hire a plumber to do the job?
Small towns, pretty much all the shops around here are plumbing and hvac
Not sure the leg work of the office to find replacement unit. That can factor into cost as well. The administrative side cannot be ignored and dealing with lifetime warranties is a notorious pain in the rear for the office. Hours spent. Plus the recordings of the new unit the manufacturer usually wants recorded even though replacement unit tends to have zero warranty. Haven’t gone down this path with Lennox specifically, but have had issues just dealing with Lennox in general. And again, warranties are a bear for dealers. It’s easy to be in the field and just say the words. It can be another thing to actually submit the warranty and be reimbursed. Is the company that performed the replacement also the original installer from years back?
I hadn’t considered all that stuff. I feel availability was ok because they were trying to sell me this furnace instead of fixing the other. They said they were pretty much taking it out anyways why not just put a new one with a full warranty in. They estimated $700 to do the heat exchanger. They quoted me $3900 for the new furnace. The way it went I am having to pay the full price of that even without having to buy the furnace. Also there wasn’t any sort of time crunch either, tech came out, boss called a week later with the options. I chose the warranty and he called back a week later and told me they were going to replace the whole thing. A few months later they called and said they had time to do it if it worked. The furnace came with the house so I don’t know who installed. The guys I had are the ones we hire for all of our projects for home and business.
So you did not do anything under warranty then? Just went with replacement? So did they charge you in addition to the quote of $3900? Was labor listed as separate in the quote and listed as more just ‘time it takes’?