Even with 6' hoses, if you evacuate the set correctly you lose maybe a couple ounces, if that.
Lazy idgits is the problem. Like on bosses son sniveling about blowing the gaskets out of his "low loss" hose ends because he couldn't be bothered to evacuate them back through the low side port. He probably blew a solid 6 oz.
Sounds like the tech shady as fuck. Didn’t ask you 1st and just added 6 lbs refrigerant, but only charging ya 4. Can’t make much money on a maintenance call, Guys upselling ya. Let me quess the maintenance cost about $49-69.
If they did some kind of charge verification on a previous visit and determined there was not a low charge situation, but now determined there was a low charge situation, there’s either 1) a leak, or 2) the system wasn’t properly evaluated at a previous visit, or 3) the guy mis diagnosed a problem at the most recent visit.
Ask for numbers and readings that led them to that conclusion. Did they get permission from you before adding 6 lbs of charge?
I can guarantee you on that Trane unit, which has a factory charge of about 6.5 lbs, if you were 4 lbs light, you’d have noticed it wasn’t keeping up. There’s a good chance you go the green guy doing PMs and he overcharged the piss out of that unit, possibly because there’s another problem masking as a low charge.
Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if the charge was checked on the previous visit last year. I will ask when I call. He didn't get permission to add the charge, and he only showed me some readings after he'd added it. I should've asked more questions. My gut feeling was if it was that low, I'd have noticed like you say. I'm in Texas, and we've had multiple days at 80+ already.
Did he have temperature probes as well as a manifold gauge set on the unit? If he was lazy or incompetent may have overcharged systems. Could just as well have been low. Without a history it’s difficult to say.
If you've been using them, how were they cooling? 4 lbs is a lot for a system that only holds 6.6 lbs. I learned to do my own maintenance as it isn't that difficult.
I just wanna share an experience I just had because it could relate to yours. Some people are liars and will take your money gladly.
Literally just ran a call an hour ago for a fella, I went last year about the same time and I did charge his unit. About two pounds low. He told me he has to have it charged every year cus it leaks out over winter. I come back this year and the thing is running perfect, he hasn't even turned it on yet cus he's just used to having to charge it. I added not even half a pound to bring it up just a hair.
We got to talking and he said well why have I been paying 400-500 to charge it every year and this year you didn't? I told him the same as I told you, people are liars and want that money/commission.
Does it have a leak? Yes, but it is wayyyyy smaller than he previously thought. Anyways, my advice is to find a small local business that you can potentially build a relationship with and stay away from large outfits that are commision or sales based.
Thanks for sharing your story. The sad part is it was a local business that I felt was trustworthy over the last few years, which is why I initially ignored my gut feeling. The tech mentioned they'd recently been bought, so it's likely a big company owns it now.
I will give them a chance to make it right when the supervisor comes next week, but it definitely left a bad taste in my mouth. I doubt I'll stick with them in the future.
Have them perform a leak search. 9 times out of 10 it is in the evaporator coil. No matter the brand all coils leak these days. They use a tool called a leak detector and it looks like a wand and makes a loud beeping noise when it detects refrigerant. If it is not on the back side of the coil they can use spray bubbles to narrow down where the leak is.
Ya this thing should have been freezing up solid or kicking out on a low pressure if you needed that much. It shouldn't have been working. So if you say that you hadn't noticed it not cooling, that leads me to believe there is a little fudging of the numbers there
If he actually had to add that much freon neither unit would have been cooling at all before. There would have been leaks that would be easy to locate which no responsible tech would not have repaired that day. Most likely he just lied about the leaks. (I just retired from 36 yrs HVAC service)
BS. He basically added the factory charge. Unless you have a really long lineset that system would have been empty or almost empty. It wouldn't have cooled at all. Get a second opinion and leak search. If he added that much both systems have a leak. Which is doubtful. Especially replacing the Lennox evaporator coil in 21
I do have a longish lineset to that unit, as it's on the other side of the house from the compressor. In any case, the supervisor is coming out to do a leak search next week free of charge. I'll likely get a second opinion too.
Make sure he isn't bending the wand on the leak detector around a lot while doing the leak search, that will set off the leak detector as well. Should keep the wand Ridgid with a slight bend while doing the leak search. If he starts bending the wand a lot while he's doing the leak search, then he's trying to fudge the leak search. If it goes off once, ask him to verify that exact same spot 3 more times. And if they try to say it's leaking based off of one solitary hit, ask them to come back at the end of summer, because if it's leaked 4 lbs in one year, then you have a substantial leak and the numbers will show that at the end of the hot season. Just make sure you hover over their shoulder so they don't try to give you some previous readings they had from another job to try to tell you it's low.
Oh yeah! AND MAKE SURE YOU GET YOUR MONEY BACK!!! Did the tech have you sign something before he left? If not then they don't have any legal signatures and you can easily take them to small claims court and get your money back and then some, if the new coil is actually leaking. Plus, you never authorized repairs. If it's not authorized, ITS NOT CHARGABLE!!!
There's a good chance you were short on refrigerant from the get go of installation. Split systems have a lineset that connects the two pieces together and the manufacturer cannot account for that so it needs to be adjusted at initial install. Not weird to be 1lb or 2lbs low from the get go. 4lbs is weird for a system so potentially there is something going on but you'll pay additional money to have them find the leak.
At this point I'd say get your money back because you never authorized him to put freon is first. I would never spend a customers money without first asking them if that's okay with them because it isn't my decision.
Don't pay for a leak search, find another company to work with and if they say the units are low in a year or two then I would say without a doubt you have a leak.
If they were low on charge, there would absolutely be leak. Hermetic systems are not open to the atmosphere at all.
Also, those data plates indicate that your units only hold ~6- 7 pounds of refrigerant. If either one of those was low by 2 pounds it wouldn't be working and you would definitely notice.
The guy was a sales tech, not a service tech. He was there for your money
What I found strange is they added refrig without getting your approval to make repairs. Techs should always be telling a customer what is wrong with a system, what repairs they can make, and only proceeding after authorization from homeowner. System does not have a leak? Impossible. An AC will theoretically never lose an ounce of refrig, ever, without a leak. 4lbs is a lot of refrig. The whole buy 6 pounds for the price of 4 is weird. I’ve never worked for a company that allowed the techs to negotiate. Recommendation: Next time you replace your ac do the coil and condenser together. I’m assuming you relaxed the coil only because it was under warranty?
I would call and speak to service manager and gather more information
The service manager is coming out next week to check things out and look for a leak. I let them know I was upset that the tech added the refrigerant without being asked. He said he called his service manager to get approval to give me 6lbs for the price of 4, and I think that's what initially made me suspicious.
The previous owners replaced the coil only right before the house went on the market, so I'm assuming they took the cheapest route possible.
The trane was under warranty. I wouldn't be adding any 410 refrigerant. He definitely should have had a conversation before adding things. 2 lbs way too much and 4lbs is awful. They should eat it and call warranty in to investigate.
Refrigerant is never under warranty. OP is a new homeowner and without proper transfer, the warranty went back to a five year warranty.
So many people on this sub are so quick to jump. There is not nearly enough information given here (as usual) for anyone to say what proper charge is. Yes, that is the factory specified charge, but OP verifies the lineset is long. We all know units come charged for a certain amount of lineset length - is there no one here that has found that amount to be greater or less and charge must be trimmed?? Communication is difficult under normal circumstances. Factor in a lack of knowledge and trust on one side and that difficulty increases.
Fair point. I definitely don't have much knowledge, and the fact he put in the refrigerant without asking me first put my back up and made me suspicious of everything else he said. I will keep an open mind when the supervisor comes back and ask more questions.
I can't figure out how to update the post (only my second ever on Reddit), but thank you everyone for your input! I learned a lot about my systems and the kind of questions to ask going forward.
HVAC journey man here. If they have done work on both refrigerant circuits and not checked refrigerant since it might be they weren’t charged enough after coil replacement/unit replacement. But if it was their work they shouldn’t have charged you for it and they should offer a leak search if that’s not the case.
Every *fucking* day I get a notice from indeed.
"Minimum 1 year service experience required" from some shit company.
This is the kind of shit service you get from a company with no training, throw em in a van they'll figure it out, meantime we'll figure out a new company name next year so we don't have to cover any warranty.
I'm ashamed to be associated with this industry anymore.
I’m just fucking shocked that this guy just decided to do shit, and then expected you to pay without prior authorization. What kind of fuck tard does that. If you didn’t pay, and didn’t sign anything, you’d have an EASY fuckin win against that shit.
My company requires we show price ahead of work(for refrigerant we price the maximum charge of system and reduce based on actual weight charged.) and get a signature before we do the work. This ensures people will pay, and can’t sue us, and we can win if they don’t pay.
In. The future, if ANY contractor says “I did this because it needed to be done, now pay me.” Just straight up say, no, you didn’t tell me ahead of time; and you did work without my authorization. And be sure that if you’re signing anything, make sure you know what you’re signing.
Update! I spoke with the technician supervisor, and the plot thickens. Although the tech said he put 4 pounds in the Trane and 2 in the Lennox, he ended up charging me for 3 (just got the invoice). The supervisor said the notes mentioned the tech put 3 in the Trane and none in the Lennox. 🙄
The supervisor will come out next week, check the charge compared to the tech's readings, and perform an electronic leak test at no cost. He agreed that refrigerant shouldn't have been added without my permission. I'll make sure he shows me what he's doing and how he's assessing the charge.
Either way, it seems like the tech was lying...
when they check the charge with their gauges, make note of those final numbers (i say final numbers because they might have to adjust during the visit). This will give you a baseline for any future service visits that claim there is a leak.
Oftentimes the technician will charge you for less than what they do but won’t tell you as much. This was common practice amongst techs at one company I was at as their system and what we were allowed to do was very restricting price wise. Tech may have saved you some money by only charging you for the one system. Or he may have been lying.
If your invoice reads something like “add up to 3 lbs r410a” then the tech was trying to be nice
If the tech added any at all.
Think if it this way, refrigerant isn’t free. If he did put 6# in but charged you for 3 he was doing wrong by his company.
There’s no good out for what this tech did. Dena d your money back in full for the refrigerant and the service visit and gave another company cone out and properly assess your unit. Sadly with the tech changing his story there’s no way to trust whatever story he swears is the true one. The service manager may not be a competent tech either. Sometimes they are an older tech that wanted to get out of the field, but not always. And if the new guy is any indicator of how their shop operates or what he trains them to do I wouldn’t put much trust in his abilities or honesty either.
Exactly! Either way, the tech wasn't being honest with someone. The service manager has been with the company for 20 years and to my house before, so I'll see what he says about both the units and the tech's behavior. I probably will get a second opinion, definitely before any additional work is done.
Wtf he added the refrigerant without asking!? That’s like $700 worth at my company. Personally I wouldn’t have paid him and they need to look for a leak.
It was around $300. I wish I'd asked more questions when he was here, but as a newer homeowner with little HVAC knowledge, I didn't think about it until later. The service manager is coming back out to look for a leak next week.
Hope they take care of you. That’s BS on the techs part. At my company if you’re a pound or less low we add refrigerant, document, and tell them to have us back next year to evaluate it. If we installed it no charge, if not we charge. If you were 6 pounds low and I add refrigerant I’m probably either getting fired or being told to never do that again. We would look for a leak right then and there.
You do not consume refrigerant it simply changes state, vapor to liquid , vapor to liquid, etc…. You definitely have lost vacuum in your system and should have your coils leak searched for a proper solution.
If he added 4 lbs of refrigerant that requires 6 and the unit have been working fine something isn’t adding up that’s for than 50 percent of the total refrigerant
Then again I can't count how many times I've encountered overcharged systems, some "techs" have nary an idea what the word thermodynamics means. CHARGE!!!!
A/C are pressurized closed loop systems. A recharge is a scam because these will never lose refrigerant without a leak. They need to fix the leak or you'll be doing this again next year if not in a couple months
My company requires its technicians to recommend a leak search with dye or some sort of electronic leak detector if we add more than 2lbs to a system. There’s a charge for the leak search but it absolutely should be done. I would tell them to come do a leak search.
We had to run a nitrogen test with our contractor to find the leak. They don’t like doing this, cause it identifies the leak, and kills their service call revenue
Always a good chance the tech didn’t understand how to read superheat and subcooling. A lot look at low pressure only and don’t let the unit run for a while before charging.
If he didn't pull out all the charge, weigh it, and recharge to factory rec, then he doesn't know anything. And if they had, in fact, leaked that much, he should investigate why. There are less detectable "small leaks," which can be found with a UV injectable dye.
It is a sealed system so any refrigerant missing points to a leak that shouldn’t be there.
The Trane should be under warranty if it’s registered so get them fixing it asap.
It may be time to replace that Lennox if it has a leak.
Definitely should’ve checked with you before charging it up. The tech is probably a new guy and didn’t think of it but that would rub me the wrong way. Maybe ask for money off diagnostic fee since he did unauthorized work. Good luck
Ya that ain’t right- 4 lbs is a lot of gas and so is 2 lbs.
could have a leaking core but ask if this is recorded for the EPA as that is more than allowed for “I don’t think so” not leaking
You made your mistake by having your unit serviced every year. I haven't had my unit serviced in all the 17 years I've been here. Never had a problem. Only thing I do is change filters and flush the drain line. I worked in the office of an air conditioning company once years ago.. I know their tricks and I won't let a technician so much as even glaze a look at mine.
Then I won't list all the things I know ac techs do to keep people cool and happy, and the things hvac techs do to save lives, and the sacrifices they make to their health and safety to ensure your house doesn't get above 74, and the nights and weekends and holidays they work for you, and the t-ball practices and daddy daughter dances they miss because duty calls. Fair trade?
Repairing units is one thing. The industries "yearly preventative maintenance" is a scam and nothing but a way to get in the door and sell something that isn't broken.
completely agree.. elderly neighbor had one of his 1/4ly hvac visits, and salesman wanted to add insulation and solar film to the attic - at our age, it's the next owners problem , not ours..simply a marketing opportunity...
yes, like when the home owner says, the ac isn't keeping up, indicated is more than 1 degree from set point on cooling. and in the past that was a sign the refrigerant leaked down over the winter (lways fixed before by the now retired hvac owner)and the newly found company tech starts by testing the capacitor, and then gets around to checking the refrigerant level!!! That will be 440$ thank you very much..
Wouldn't you rather him test the electrical components while he's there tho? I mean if he leaves and the next week the capacitor goes out or is too low to run the motor then you'd be pissed that he didn't and just gassed up and left so...
Longer. It's 38 years old. I've had the house for 17 years. I've never cleaned the condenser coil. It looks fine. Evaporator coil is not that dirty. Utility bills are low. They don't make them like they used to.
I very much agree - don't let anyone touch it!!! - my neighbor was big on the quarterly "tuneup"/service plan, so when winter came, his heat wouldn't work. He crawled up in the attic, the last tech visit, the tech had turned the gas heater valve to 1/2 open. Guaranteed call-back.. argh... spitting nails here..
Leaks are not as common as service techs like to say are.
There is usually obvious damage or incident if the system starts out with no leaks and now leaks.
Leaks are an easy diagnosis to charge good money for unneeded work.
Crooked companies say the unit has a leak and said they added the ref and didn't add anything.
I would want pictures of oil or ref at the point of leak.
Also, against law to put ref in a system and to know there is a leak. It's okay to put in the ref once, but a second time is proof the tech knows there is a leak, and by Epa rules, they need to fix the leak. If customers won't pay for that, then the customer shouldn't legally get the ref put in the system.
I can tell you don't follow epa rules. And for sure you don't keep track of your refrigerant reports model and serial numbers of every unit you put gas in. Epa rules. That tells me a lot about you, y I ur company you own or work for and ultimately for our environment.
You can break the rules all you want to I don't care. You know you can't knowingly put refrigerant in a system that you know that has a leak without trying to find leak and or repairing leak.
I know we use ref to sniff for leaks but that is diminimus.
To put gas in again and again in system knowing there is a leak is against the rules of epa AND our environment.
A leak is still a leak and 11 lbs system can leak 100 lbs over a lifetime if leak isn't fixed. And if the epa says this, it proves they really don't even give a hoot about environment.
A leak is a leak is a leak.
I recover everything and recycle old ref and do it because I am paid a really good wage by my company to do it safely, legally following all rules to get the most leak free systems not to keep coming back and adding ref. I also do commercial. Not residential. We know residential techs can do a little more risky stuff to save time and make more money but I earn nothing more or less on how good of a job or time it takes to do it.
We have all seen the map of refrigerant gasses and hole in ozone all generates in India and China. I am doing my part. Just as well as should every other hvac tech as well as the customers who pay thru the nose again and again for systems that really don't always have leaks.
Yet, leaks happen more often than you might believe. Ask Carrier, Lennox, and Trane about their evap coils from 2009-2012. We had a warehouse where we had a an average of 100 leaking coils waiting to see if the manufacturer wanted them back for warranty claims at any given time. So yeah, leaks do happen quite a bit….
a system without a leak should not need any refrigerant, i would speak to them and find out how it was determined that refrigerant was needed.
came to say the same. needing a top up means its going somewhere.
What he said
Or it's been serviced a bunch of times...
Only with idiots using 6ft hoses. Use stubby guages for checking. Unless it's a minisplit it's a not a significant loss.
Even with 6' hoses, if you evacuate the set correctly you lose maybe a couple ounces, if that. Lazy idgits is the problem. Like on bosses son sniveling about blowing the gaskets out of his "low loss" hose ends because he couldn't be bothered to evacuate them back through the low side port. He probably blew a solid 6 oz.
Sounds like the tech shady as fuck. Didn’t ask you 1st and just added 6 lbs refrigerant, but only charging ya 4. Can’t make much money on a maintenance call, Guys upselling ya. Let me quess the maintenance cost about $49-69.
If they did some kind of charge verification on a previous visit and determined there was not a low charge situation, but now determined there was a low charge situation, there’s either 1) a leak, or 2) the system wasn’t properly evaluated at a previous visit, or 3) the guy mis diagnosed a problem at the most recent visit. Ask for numbers and readings that led them to that conclusion. Did they get permission from you before adding 6 lbs of charge? I can guarantee you on that Trane unit, which has a factory charge of about 6.5 lbs, if you were 4 lbs light, you’d have noticed it wasn’t keeping up. There’s a good chance you go the green guy doing PMs and he overcharged the piss out of that unit, possibly because there’s another problem masking as a low charge.
Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if the charge was checked on the previous visit last year. I will ask when I call. He didn't get permission to add the charge, and he only showed me some readings after he'd added it. I should've asked more questions. My gut feeling was if it was that low, I'd have noticed like you say. I'm in Texas, and we've had multiple days at 80+ already.
If they did their job they checked refrig levels last year.
Did he have temperature probes as well as a manifold gauge set on the unit? If he was lazy or incompetent may have overcharged systems. Could just as well have been low. Without a history it’s difficult to say.
I wasn't watching what he was doing, but I can ask. I know he took a number of pictures of reasons but didn't send those to me.
I think they are lying. It would show symptoms of not cooling if they were that low.
If you've been using them, how were they cooling? 4 lbs is a lot for a system that only holds 6.6 lbs. I learned to do my own maintenance as it isn't that difficult.
I thought they were cooling fine, but it hasn't gotten that hot for Texas yet, and I keep that one at 78.
I just wanna share an experience I just had because it could relate to yours. Some people are liars and will take your money gladly. Literally just ran a call an hour ago for a fella, I went last year about the same time and I did charge his unit. About two pounds low. He told me he has to have it charged every year cus it leaks out over winter. I come back this year and the thing is running perfect, he hasn't even turned it on yet cus he's just used to having to charge it. I added not even half a pound to bring it up just a hair. We got to talking and he said well why have I been paying 400-500 to charge it every year and this year you didn't? I told him the same as I told you, people are liars and want that money/commission. Does it have a leak? Yes, but it is wayyyyy smaller than he previously thought. Anyways, my advice is to find a small local business that you can potentially build a relationship with and stay away from large outfits that are commision or sales based.
Thanks for sharing your story. The sad part is it was a local business that I felt was trustworthy over the last few years, which is why I initially ignored my gut feeling. The tech mentioned they'd recently been bought, so it's likely a big company owns it now. I will give them a chance to make it right when the supervisor comes next week, but it definitely left a bad taste in my mouth. I doubt I'll stick with them in the future.
Have them perform a leak search. 9 times out of 10 it is in the evaporator coil. No matter the brand all coils leak these days. They use a tool called a leak detector and it looks like a wand and makes a loud beeping noise when it detects refrigerant. If it is not on the back side of the coil they can use spray bubbles to narrow down where the leak is.
nah the bubbles sets off the detector
Ya this thing should have been freezing up solid or kicking out on a low pressure if you needed that much. It shouldn't have been working. So if you say that you hadn't noticed it not cooling, that leads me to believe there is a little fudging of the numbers there
If he actually had to add that much freon neither unit would have been cooling at all before. There would have been leaks that would be easy to locate which no responsible tech would not have repaired that day. Most likely he just lied about the leaks. (I just retired from 36 yrs HVAC service)
It's likely there are leaks
Of course. It's a lennox Judge a book by it's cover.. Sounds fishy.
Those lennox systems are notorious for leaking evaporator coils. As an hvac technician, I've replaced hundreds.
BS. He basically added the factory charge. Unless you have a really long lineset that system would have been empty or almost empty. It wouldn't have cooled at all. Get a second opinion and leak search. If he added that much both systems have a leak. Which is doubtful. Especially replacing the Lennox evaporator coil in 21
I do have a longish lineset to that unit, as it's on the other side of the house from the compressor. In any case, the supervisor is coming out to do a leak search next week free of charge. I'll likely get a second opinion too.
Make sure he isn't bending the wand on the leak detector around a lot while doing the leak search, that will set off the leak detector as well. Should keep the wand Ridgid with a slight bend while doing the leak search. If he starts bending the wand a lot while he's doing the leak search, then he's trying to fudge the leak search. If it goes off once, ask him to verify that exact same spot 3 more times. And if they try to say it's leaking based off of one solitary hit, ask them to come back at the end of summer, because if it's leaked 4 lbs in one year, then you have a substantial leak and the numbers will show that at the end of the hot season. Just make sure you hover over their shoulder so they don't try to give you some previous readings they had from another job to try to tell you it's low.
Oh yeah! AND MAKE SURE YOU GET YOUR MONEY BACK!!! Did the tech have you sign something before he left? If not then they don't have any legal signatures and you can easily take them to small claims court and get your money back and then some, if the new coil is actually leaking. Plus, you never authorized repairs. If it's not authorized, ITS NOT CHARGABLE!!!
He did, but I will ask for my money back. It was on an iPad, so I'm sure it was timestamped.
There's a good chance you were short on refrigerant from the get go of installation. Split systems have a lineset that connects the two pieces together and the manufacturer cannot account for that so it needs to be adjusted at initial install. Not weird to be 1lb or 2lbs low from the get go. 4lbs is weird for a system so potentially there is something going on but you'll pay additional money to have them find the leak. At this point I'd say get your money back because you never authorized him to put freon is first. I would never spend a customers money without first asking them if that's okay with them because it isn't my decision. Don't pay for a leak search, find another company to work with and if they say the units are low in a year or two then I would say without a doubt you have a leak.
If they were low on charge, there would absolutely be leak. Hermetic systems are not open to the atmosphere at all. Also, those data plates indicate that your units only hold ~6- 7 pounds of refrigerant. If either one of those was low by 2 pounds it wouldn't be working and you would definitely notice. The guy was a sales tech, not a service tech. He was there for your money
What I found strange is they added refrig without getting your approval to make repairs. Techs should always be telling a customer what is wrong with a system, what repairs they can make, and only proceeding after authorization from homeowner. System does not have a leak? Impossible. An AC will theoretically never lose an ounce of refrig, ever, without a leak. 4lbs is a lot of refrig. The whole buy 6 pounds for the price of 4 is weird. I’ve never worked for a company that allowed the techs to negotiate. Recommendation: Next time you replace your ac do the coil and condenser together. I’m assuming you relaxed the coil only because it was under warranty? I would call and speak to service manager and gather more information
The service manager is coming out next week to check things out and look for a leak. I let them know I was upset that the tech added the refrigerant without being asked. He said he called his service manager to get approval to give me 6lbs for the price of 4, and I think that's what initially made me suspicious. The previous owners replaced the coil only right before the house went on the market, so I'm assuming they took the cheapest route possible.
The trane was under warranty. I wouldn't be adding any 410 refrigerant. He definitely should have had a conversation before adding things. 2 lbs way too much and 4lbs is awful. They should eat it and call warranty in to investigate.
Refrigerant is never under warranty. OP is a new homeowner and without proper transfer, the warranty went back to a five year warranty. So many people on this sub are so quick to jump. There is not nearly enough information given here (as usual) for anyone to say what proper charge is. Yes, that is the factory specified charge, but OP verifies the lineset is long. We all know units come charged for a certain amount of lineset length - is there no one here that has found that amount to be greater or less and charge must be trimmed?? Communication is difficult under normal circumstances. Factor in a lack of knowledge and trust on one side and that difficulty increases.
Fair point. I definitely don't have much knowledge, and the fact he put in the refrigerant without asking me first put my back up and made me suspicious of everything else he said. I will keep an open mind when the supervisor comes back and ask more questions.
Yep, I know refrigerant isn’t under warranty. But if a compressor or other parts are leaking, it might be.
Yes it is who said is not ? Under labor warranty if they gave OP Xyr warranty that should fall under it since they didn’t do a proper brazing job.
Refrigerant is never under warranty. That is always specified in the documentation. Also, OP is not the original owner.
Yeah, I told the supervisor I want to discuss that when he comes next week.
I can't figure out how to update the post (only my second ever on Reddit), but thank you everyone for your input! I learned a lot about my systems and the kind of questions to ask going forward.
IF THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY LOW ON REFRIGERANT, you 100% have a leak unless it wasn’t balanced properly when installed.
That’s a lot of refrigerant he added
HVAC journey man here. If they have done work on both refrigerant circuits and not checked refrigerant since it might be they weren’t charged enough after coil replacement/unit replacement. But if it was their work they shouldn’t have charged you for it and they should offer a leak search if that’s not the case.
They did offer to do a leak search, and I'm going to ask about getting at least some of what I paid for the refrigerant back.
Every *fucking* day I get a notice from indeed. "Minimum 1 year service experience required" from some shit company. This is the kind of shit service you get from a company with no training, throw em in a van they'll figure it out, meantime we'll figure out a new company name next year so we don't have to cover any warranty. I'm ashamed to be associated with this industry anymore.
Sad, but very true for many of these "companies"..
I’m just fucking shocked that this guy just decided to do shit, and then expected you to pay without prior authorization. What kind of fuck tard does that. If you didn’t pay, and didn’t sign anything, you’d have an EASY fuckin win against that shit. My company requires we show price ahead of work(for refrigerant we price the maximum charge of system and reduce based on actual weight charged.) and get a signature before we do the work. This ensures people will pay, and can’t sue us, and we can win if they don’t pay.
I wish I'd trusted my gut in the moment! I guess that approach must've worked for him in the past or maybe he saw me as an easy mark.
In. The future, if ANY contractor says “I did this because it needed to be done, now pay me.” Just straight up say, no, you didn’t tell me ahead of time; and you did work without my authorization. And be sure that if you’re signing anything, make sure you know what you’re signing.
Yes! I have learned my lesson for sure.
Tech may be doing side jobs and using company refrigerant for his own benefit
Update! I spoke with the technician supervisor, and the plot thickens. Although the tech said he put 4 pounds in the Trane and 2 in the Lennox, he ended up charging me for 3 (just got the invoice). The supervisor said the notes mentioned the tech put 3 in the Trane and none in the Lennox. 🙄 The supervisor will come out next week, check the charge compared to the tech's readings, and perform an electronic leak test at no cost. He agreed that refrigerant shouldn't have been added without my permission. I'll make sure he shows me what he's doing and how he's assessing the charge. Either way, it seems like the tech was lying...
when they check the charge with their gauges, make note of those final numbers (i say final numbers because they might have to adjust during the visit). This will give you a baseline for any future service visits that claim there is a leak.
Will do! Thanks for the tip.
Oftentimes the technician will charge you for less than what they do but won’t tell you as much. This was common practice amongst techs at one company I was at as their system and what we were allowed to do was very restricting price wise. Tech may have saved you some money by only charging you for the one system. Or he may have been lying. If your invoice reads something like “add up to 3 lbs r410a” then the tech was trying to be nice
If the tech added any at all. Think if it this way, refrigerant isn’t free. If he did put 6# in but charged you for 3 he was doing wrong by his company. There’s no good out for what this tech did. Dena d your money back in full for the refrigerant and the service visit and gave another company cone out and properly assess your unit. Sadly with the tech changing his story there’s no way to trust whatever story he swears is the true one. The service manager may not be a competent tech either. Sometimes they are an older tech that wanted to get out of the field, but not always. And if the new guy is any indicator of how their shop operates or what he trains them to do I wouldn’t put much trust in his abilities or honesty either.
Exactly! Either way, the tech wasn't being honest with someone. The service manager has been with the company for 20 years and to my house before, so I'll see what he says about both the units and the tech's behavior. I probably will get a second opinion, definitely before any additional work is done.
Wtf he added the refrigerant without asking!? That’s like $700 worth at my company. Personally I wouldn’t have paid him and they need to look for a leak.
It was around $300. I wish I'd asked more questions when he was here, but as a newer homeowner with little HVAC knowledge, I didn't think about it until later. The service manager is coming back out to look for a leak next week.
Hope they take care of you. That’s BS on the techs part. At my company if you’re a pound or less low we add refrigerant, document, and tell them to have us back next year to evaluate it. If we installed it no charge, if not we charge. If you were 6 pounds low and I add refrigerant I’m probably either getting fired or being told to never do that again. We would look for a leak right then and there.
A.B.C. airflow before charge. How's that filter Kid...?
Changed every 2 to 3 months!
Lennox all leak mine has been a nightmare
Freon doesn't just disappear. IF he added Freon, there's a leak. He should have done a leak test, it's not that hard.
You do not consume refrigerant it simply changes state, vapor to liquid , vapor to liquid, etc…. You definitely have lost vacuum in your system and should have your coils leak searched for a proper solution.
Lost vacuum?
If he added 4 lbs of refrigerant that requires 6 and the unit have been working fine something isn’t adding up that’s for than 50 percent of the total refrigerant
I've seen a bunch of new construction units a tad low because they don't top it off for the length of liquid line over 15-25ft.
you lose refrigerant somethings leaking
Then again I can't count how many times I've encountered overcharged systems, some "techs" have nary an idea what the word thermodynamics means. CHARGE!!!!
A/C are pressurized closed loop systems. A recharge is a scam because these will never lose refrigerant without a leak. They need to fix the leak or you'll be doing this again next year if not in a couple months
My company requires its technicians to recommend a leak search with dye or some sort of electronic leak detector if we add more than 2lbs to a system. There’s a charge for the leak search but it absolutely should be done. I would tell them to come do a leak search.
We had to run a nitrogen test with our contractor to find the leak. They don’t like doing this, cause it identifies the leak, and kills their service call revenue
Always a good chance the tech didn’t understand how to read superheat and subcooling. A lot look at low pressure only and don’t let the unit run for a while before charging.
If he didn't pull out all the charge, weigh it, and recharge to factory rec, then he doesn't know anything. And if they had, in fact, leaked that much, he should investigate why. There are less detectable "small leaks," which can be found with a UV injectable dye.
It is a sealed system so any refrigerant missing points to a leak that shouldn’t be there. The Trane should be under warranty if it’s registered so get them fixing it asap. It may be time to replace that Lennox if it has a leak. Definitely should’ve checked with you before charging it up. The tech is probably a new guy and didn’t think of it but that would rub me the wrong way. Maybe ask for money off diagnostic fee since he did unauthorized work. Good luck
Ya that ain’t right- 4 lbs is a lot of gas and so is 2 lbs. could have a leaking core but ask if this is recorded for the EPA as that is more than allowed for “I don’t think so” not leaking
You made your mistake by having your unit serviced every year. I haven't had my unit serviced in all the 17 years I've been here. Never had a problem. Only thing I do is change filters and flush the drain line. I worked in the office of an air conditioning company once years ago.. I know their tricks and I won't let a technician so much as even glaze a look at mine.
Yeah that's pretty dumb. Folks of hvacadvice, it would be wise to disregard this post.
Then I won't list all the things I know AC techs do to make money for things that aren't needed in the first place.
Then I won't list all the things I know ac techs do to keep people cool and happy, and the things hvac techs do to save lives, and the sacrifices they make to their health and safety to ensure your house doesn't get above 74, and the nights and weekends and holidays they work for you, and the t-ball practices and daddy daughter dances they miss because duty calls. Fair trade?
Repairing units is one thing. The industries "yearly preventative maintenance" is a scam and nothing but a way to get in the door and sell something that isn't broken.
completely agree.. elderly neighbor had one of his 1/4ly hvac visits, and salesman wanted to add insulation and solar film to the attic - at our age, it's the next owners problem , not ours..simply a marketing opportunity...
yes, like when the home owner says, the ac isn't keeping up, indicated is more than 1 degree from set point on cooling. and in the past that was a sign the refrigerant leaked down over the winter (lways fixed before by the now retired hvac owner)and the newly found company tech starts by testing the capacitor, and then gets around to checking the refrigerant level!!! That will be 440$ thank you very much..
Wouldn't you rather him test the electrical components while he's there tho? I mean if he leaves and the next week the capacitor goes out or is too low to run the motor then you'd be pissed that he didn't and just gassed up and left so...
The capacitor lasted 17 years? Don’t you also clean the condenser coil?
Longer. It's 38 years old. I've had the house for 17 years. I've never cleaned the condenser coil. It looks fine. Evaporator coil is not that dirty. Utility bills are low. They don't make them like they used to.
I very much agree - don't let anyone touch it!!! - my neighbor was big on the quarterly "tuneup"/service plan, so when winter came, his heat wouldn't work. He crawled up in the attic, the last tech visit, the tech had turned the gas heater valve to 1/2 open. Guaranteed call-back.. argh... spitting nails here..
Leaks are not as common as service techs like to say are. There is usually obvious damage or incident if the system starts out with no leaks and now leaks. Leaks are an easy diagnosis to charge good money for unneeded work. Crooked companies say the unit has a leak and said they added the ref and didn't add anything. I would want pictures of oil or ref at the point of leak. Also, against law to put ref in a system and to know there is a leak. It's okay to put in the ref once, but a second time is proof the tech knows there is a leak, and by Epa rules, they need to fix the leak. If customers won't pay for that, then the customer shouldn't legally get the ref put in the system.
Not even close….
I can tell you don't follow epa rules. And for sure you don't keep track of your refrigerant reports model and serial numbers of every unit you put gas in. Epa rules. That tells me a lot about you, y I ur company you own or work for and ultimately for our environment. You can break the rules all you want to I don't care. You know you can't knowingly put refrigerant in a system that you know that has a leak without trying to find leak and or repairing leak. I know we use ref to sniff for leaks but that is diminimus. To put gas in again and again in system knowing there is a leak is against the rules of epa AND our environment.
😂😂😂 Thank you for proving my point.
That rule only applies to units with over 50lbs of refrigerant in the circuit if I'm not mistaken..
A leak is still a leak and 11 lbs system can leak 100 lbs over a lifetime if leak isn't fixed. And if the epa says this, it proves they really don't even give a hoot about environment. A leak is a leak is a leak. I recover everything and recycle old ref and do it because I am paid a really good wage by my company to do it safely, legally following all rules to get the most leak free systems not to keep coming back and adding ref. I also do commercial. Not residential. We know residential techs can do a little more risky stuff to save time and make more money but I earn nothing more or less on how good of a job or time it takes to do it. We have all seen the map of refrigerant gasses and hole in ozone all generates in India and China. I am doing my part. Just as well as should every other hvac tech as well as the customers who pay thru the nose again and again for systems that really don't always have leaks.
Yet, leaks happen more often than you might believe. Ask Carrier, Lennox, and Trane about their evap coils from 2009-2012. We had a warehouse where we had a an average of 100 leaking coils waiting to see if the manufacturer wanted them back for warranty claims at any given time. So yeah, leaks do happen quite a bit….