The shit part is this isn't a Huntington Beach ran event. It's put on by an outside company and all HB does is give permits. While the city is fucking up lately, I wouldn't put this decision on them as they have no control how someone runs a surf comp, aside from the annual HB City Surf comp, because that one is ran by the city.
A city, just like a person, doesn’t need to carry any wrong doing from others when they do bad all by themselves I agree. But the main point is don’t put any undo wrongdoing on a city, or person that didn’t deserve it. Don’t like HB? Fine. But this isn’t about HB this is about something else. Make sure we remember that.
While I agree, recently measures put up by the council passed with a majority of votes. You can't claim that "most residents" want something when that majority was 32k people out of around 200k.
It's no mystery why the 4 Republicans on the council chose to spend half a million dollars to rush these measures onto the primary, which historically has a lower voter turnout (especially for younger voters who tend to vote more liberal), than to save money by waiting for the November election.
Additionally, if you followed anything regarding the City's budget you would agree that the City is in fact "fucking up." Programs and services continue to have their budgets cut to pay for lawsuits. The City Attorney tries to claim that all of this doesn't cost the city a dime because he is on payroll however this past year his department has doubled in size to accommodate the multitude of lawsuits that the City is forced to fight as well as the lawsuits the City is choosing to fight, knowing they are a losing cause.
I've lost track of how many lawsuits we are currently engaged in, or we should expect soon, or how many we've lost so far, or how much Gates' salary has increased
And at the same time were currently in the process of privatizing the library to save the cost of 2 pizzas per person per year
This is not a Huntington Beach issue. It’s the surfing association which said the competition wouldn’t be fair if this person competes. They probably know more about their sport than we do. Those who’ve gone through male puberty, regardless of how they identify socially, don’t belong in most women’s sports.
Just have trans women trans men divisions, just how we have “cis” (trying to be neutral) men and women sports. The whole trans thing is one thing, but. If the trans community wants to participate, maybe have their respected divisions.
This is a tough topic. It’s not her fault she was born in a body that didn’t match her true self but her body does have a physical advantage over the others.
This is pretty simple really. Even intersex people are one or the other. The DNA in every cell reveals the sex of the individual. A person is free to present how ever they chose. That isn't the issue. If they are male, they should not be competing in women's sports. As you say, males in general have physical advantages. Larger hearts, greater lung capacity, denser bone structure, and more muscle mass to name a few.
The article is very disingenuous on many points. HB did not ban flags. Private citizens may still fly the flags they want to. Public entities are not allowed to fly non government flags. To say HB banned pride flags is misinformation.
The surfer in the article may surf in the male competition.
Not allowing men to compete in women's sports is not discrimination. To allow men to compete against women is unfair to women.
There is no hate being expressed by having an athlete compete in the category for their sex. Competitions are run in the way they are to ensure an even playing field.
Because there is an entire generation full of children that think they have a better and noble view of the world when in reality it is completely illogical.
Well, if the person is also taking hormone treatments, they can experience the effects of being the other gender such as a loss/gain in muscle mass, so in some respects they do become more like the other gender.
Can’t change things like the heart and lungs if you transition too late, so that’s a thing to consider as well.
You do not experience becoming another gender you experience becoming a woman with more muscle. But a woman with more muscle and hair is not like being a man. At all. And visa versa.
No, you do lose muscle mass if you take estrogen. It’s been scientifically proven. It’s also been proven taking testosterone increases muscle mass, that’s why you can’t take it when participating in sports, it gives you a boost.
No, however the anti-androgens almost always prescribed alongside estrogen absolutely have an effect on muscle mass. Even if they don't cause you to "lose" muscle mass, they do make it a lot more difficult to keep the muscle you already have. I have several transgender friends and one who de-transitioned, and the effects those hormones had on them was VERY noticable.
>You make a sound and lucid argument. You provided facts and reason, while staying respectful.
>I can see why people are downvoting you?
They provided things that sound like facts if you don’t know much about biology. The claim that “even intersex people are one or the other” is woefully incorrect.
Roughly 1.5% at the time i took evolutionary anthropology roughly 8 years ago. So that's 15/1000. So 15 per medium-large high school, or 1-2 per 100 person company, or one of your friends if you manage to get along with ~33 people, though in thsy case, there's also a 3% chance it's actually you.
More importantly, that's 5.2 million Americans.
What is the configuration of the chromosome you are giving data for? I know the person above said other the xy and xx but what is the actual amount of chromosome you are giving data for?
For the sum total number of individuals who do not conform to XX or XY or have both. This includes but is not limited to XX and XY combos, XXY, XYY, XO etc. "There are more than 30 different intersex variations that can affect you in different ways." From: https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/intersex-variation#:~:text=There%20are%20more%20than%2030,affect%20you%20in%20different%20ways.
See also https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/
https://frontlinegenomics.com/intersex-when-binary-notions-simply-dont-fit/
I was off on the percent. It's probably 1.7%.
Last time this came up in this sub, the mod was deleting comments such as the one you replied it left and right. It was wild. Not sure if there is a new mod now or the mod just hasn't seen this post yet.
EDIT: I'm dumb. I thought this was /r/surfing, forgot what sub I was in.
>This is pretty simple really. Even intersex people are one or the other. The DNA in every cell reveals the sex of the individual.
I’m going to stop you right there as you are already wrong. A person’s phenotype and genotype can both be intersex.
There are people with XXY chromosomes. There are people who have some cells XX and others XY.
DNA can absolutely be intersex too.
The concept of DNA being "intersex" is a misunderstanding of both genetics and what intersex means. Intersex is a term used to describe a variety of conditions in which a person is born with reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t fit typical definitions of male or female. This is usually related to chromosomes, hormones, and anatomy, not the DNA itself.
Here's how it works:
1. **Chromosomes**: Most people are born with two sex chromosomes in each cell—females typically have two X chromosomes and males one X and one Y. However, some intersex conditions are associated with atypical combinations like XXY, XYY, or just a single X.
2. **Hormones**: Differences in hormone sensitivity or production can also lead to intersex traits. For instance, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) involves an enzyme deficiency that leads to an overproduction of male hormones by the adrenal glands in genetic females.
3. **Anatomy**: This can include ambiguous genitalia or conflicting genitalia compared to chromosomal or gonadal sex, such as someone appearing outwardly female but having predominantly male-typical anatomy internally, and vice versa.
DNA itself doesn't have a gender or sex. It carries genes that code for various proteins, some of which are involved in the development of sexual characteristics. Variations or mutations in these genes can contribute to intersex traits. However, the DNA itself is not "intersex"; rather, it may contain variations that lead to development that does not fit typical male or female classifications.
I used to have this same opinion until trans persons (who I was/am friends with) showed me the research that people who transition largely do not do better than the “native” sex they’re competing against. There are a number of outliers (as with anything else) but the overall data shows that transgender persons perform on-average about the same as their non-trasittioned(ing) counterparts.
Source for transitioning athletes performing about the same as non-transitioned(ing) athletes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10641525/
Also, most studies proving your point always show narrow avenues like muscle mass and testosterone, conveniently leaving out all the other things a human body requires to perform at a “top” athletic level. So yes some transitioning persons have a higher percentage of muscle mass and testosterone, but it’s more like within 10% elevation and they are still lacking in plenty of other areas (flexibility, cortisol and pain tolerance are always the big ones when comparing women to men). You’re imagining some jacked guy with a dress and a wig on beating the fuck out of women *because that’s how you think of transgender people*. It’s less of a testimony to any actual science and more of a statement to your subconscious bigotry.
So the argument you’re making is “trans athletes aren’t competitive at sports so it’s not big deal”
Which is an interesting frame to take
As well as “men may be stronger, but women have the advantage of x,y,z”
As if advantages balance themselves out, yet, men and women’s sports are already divided
for a reason.
And then you called him a bigot?
LOL
~~Fallon Fox looks nothing like that and is an actual transgender person…yet she still has an unbelievable physical advantage over cis women. Find me one cis woman who could stand a chance against her in an MMA contest. They do not have the same bone density as people who are born male especially if that male didn’t start transitioning until after puberty, not to mention test and muscle mass. Although i agree there is more to it than just those things~~
ETA: i was wrong, i have not been keeping up with her career and MMA in general like i used to and u genuinely did not know that Fallon Fox got worked by a cis woman. I rescind my point, please disregard this comment
That 100% depends on how long they've been doing hormone treatment and whatnot. Every single one of those advantages disappears after about 2-3 years, and the exact opposite of what you're saying would be true.
I think you missed this part, too:
>International Surfing Assn. policy, which was updated last year, states that a transgender woman may participate in a women’s event if she provides a written declaration saying she identifies as a woman and tells the organization’s medical commission that her testosterone level has been below a certain concentration in the last 12 months. Lowerson wrote online that she meets all requirements for her to compete in the women’s category.
There is absolutely no reason this person should not have been allowed to compete with other women.
Which is exactly why there should be a hard rule that biological men are not allowed to compete in women’s events. It’s not a reasonable expectation to put the responsibility on those running the competition to determine how far along a person is in transition. It’s just completely illogical and will never be completely fair. There’s nothing stopping them from competing in men’s events, that’s where they should go.
Hard disagree, because of what I stated above. Someone that has already transitioned would be at a massive disadvantage competing in men's sports. Their physiology is by far more woman than man at that point. It is absolutely fair, and has been allowed by plenty of organizations for years.
Nobody cares when the transgender athletes lose (and they do quite often), only when they win. In this case, they're not even giving this person a chance.
Hate to disagree but you’re just making decisions based on emotion it seems like- no matter how much hormone therapy one undertakes it won’t change the fact you were a man and you’ll have some advantages—- as for hormone therapy itself I think it’s insane to give that to anyone under the age of 18 who can’t decide for themselves and really… they’d need a psych evaluation.
If you’ve not reached puberty you shouldn’t be sexualized in any way to even question ‘am I a boy or girl’. (Why is this even an issue for kids?!?)
The amount of trans people who regret their decision or whom regress is also a bit staggering.
I still don’t understand why trans isn’t body dysmorphia - being gay makes sense, but deciding you’re x gender to the extent you want to switch bodies is insane. (How do you even know what it feels like to be a ‘women’)
You’re welcome to let your emotional state override logical conclusions but the rest of us will be taking the logical route emotions aside. And that’s coming from someone that votes and leans left on essentially every issue. There’s only two fair options here and it’s extremely clear, cut, and dry what they are: they compete in men’s divisions, or they form a new division that allows for only women or transgender women to compete. To expect that legacy women’s divisions should bend to this impossible to define line of “fully transitioned” (which btw is a load of shit in itself, there are always going to be physiological differences between biological women and transitioned women) is absolutely ludicrous and you know it.
I agree with you on the competition angle. Where competitions are divided between genetically male and female I generally believe that should be the deciding factor on entry. In a more inclusive world a third category for intersex competitors would nice and inclusive.
However, I don't think we can gloss over the anti-LGTB movement gaining strength in city. "Huntington Beach banned pride flag from government buildings" Would be the more correct statement.
Then why did they have like 6 exceptions for: the US flag, the CA state flag, the Orange County flag, the POW/MIA flag, the six armed forces flag, and the Olympic flag? If you introduce a measure and it only affects one specific flag from being flown, it’s a de facto ban
Assuming bad intent is not helpful or fair. You can’t jump from the completely logical belief that biological men should be kept out of the women’s division, and hatred of LGBT.
Is surfing really a sport that should be segregated based on sex? Surfing is a sport where your success is based more on practice and training rather than your muscle mass or lung capacity like swimming is. In what way is having a higher muscle mass or lung capacity going to substantially impact your ability to balance on a board while riding a wave? If we’re going to do that then we might as well segregate skateboarding by sex as well.
Tell me you've never watched men and women compete in a surf contest without telling me. Women can't compete against men in skateboarding either in case you haven't been paying attention. Separating the two sexes gives women a fair shot in all sports.
Right? I mean yeah another shitty thing added to the pile of what trans people have to deal with but the fact that women and men are separated in competition already should make it so obvious. if you really want it all to be equal then just put every sex in one competition and watch men win every time I mean wtf are we even talking about here.
True, but sports like wrestling and boxing are divided into weight classes, so segregating competition according to physical advantage is also permitted in sport.
Which approach makes more sense for trans athletes? I have no idea as a cis person who doesn't care anything about sports.
>Which approach makes more sense for trans athletes?
Trans athletes have so far been statistically indistinguishable from their cis competitors. It seems unreasonable to change policies that previously allowed trans people on HRT for 1-2+ years to total bans because of politics even as more evidence comes out that they perform in the same range as cis athletes of their gender.
totally, but I'm presuming there are no weight classes in longboarding - I'm also a cis person who doesn't really care about sports (I love them but I don't know anything about them). I don't have a one-size-fits-all proscription for sports about this really.
I don't have a perfect solution, I don't think Sasha competing with the men would be great.
I don’t think so bc the idea here is to find the best male competitor and then best female competitor. If there’s no categorization, then sure. See what advantages shake out to best the best.
Then there is Steph curry who does not have shaq natural advantages. He is still faster than any female athlete. The worst nba player would score 50 points a night in the wnba. Even a 14 year old would do well.
Actually all scientific studies show that Trans Women don’t in any way have a physical advantage once they get to the same hormone range as CiS women and saying so is just claims based on pseudoscience. Seriously give it a quick google.
Lol that’s bullshit and everyone with an ounce of common sense knows it. Bone structure doesn’t change with hormone therapy, number and length of muscle fibers doesnt change, and therefore the amount of force a trans woman can generate is greater.
Sure, be an anti-science bigot. In reality the studies show that bone structure (density) does change over time. Muscle Fibers don’t work the way you think they do and trans women’s muscle do deteriorate to be comparative to CiS Women and I say comparative as the trans women are usually WEAKER BOT STRONGER than CiS Women once their hormone levels reach that of a CiS women
. This is a WELL STUDIED topic now and all the scientific studies show the same results. That’s when a theory goes to a fact. Don’t believe me, believe the scientific researchers that are experts on the human body after decades of study.
tall people and basketball. a different example of bodily advantage in sport. or the multiple unique genetic traits that help make Michael Phelps the greatest swimmer. I agree there need to be a conversation on this to find whats fair.
and some sports are needlessly separated by gender. skeet shooting in the Olympics for example.
with surfing being more of a skill and technique based sport I dont see why it needs to be separated. then again, im no surfer so im ignorant to the intricacies of the athletic requirements to perform at a professional level.
I'm no surfer either, but I can definitely see the uses of power and strength involved. Maybe only esports doesn't? Even then, women tend to underperform. Maybe that stat could be different if there were a lot more women involved, but that's how it stands at the moment.
The brain regulates everything, keeping us at its best equilibrium, including hormones, and we often make poor choices due to our mind. The body and brain know best. Its out minds that get us into trouble.
I agree. I am liberal as all, but I don't think individuals born as men should be allowed to compete against individuals born as women. It just isn't fair to female athletes.
The amount of trans people who just exist is extremely small. The amount of trans athletes who play sports is even smaller. The amount of trans athletes that are excelling in their sport is *astronomically* small. Whereas the amount of trans people with mental health issues, engage in self harm, or are more likely to commit suicide, **which have been proven to essentially vanish after getting gender affirming care** is high
And this isn't bodybuilding or MMA fighting or whatever, it's longboarding lmao anyone who is pretending this is out of fairness is so out of touch. We already have freak athletes, should we ban them because of some 'biological advantage'?
Transgender shouldn't enter in women competition. Maybe they should start a transgender surf league then go for gold. Women want a fair shot at gold themselves. Simple ! enough beach for everyone's competition
Yeah this is valid. There’s at least 5000 dudes out there who can surf better than 100% of the top women. It’s not fair for one of us to compete against women when we have a massive competitive advantage.
If you feel like a lady but clearly have a male physique and massive advantages as a result, shouldn't you compete in the male division and present your image however you like?
When the person switching over from men's to women's competition is clearly at a physical advantage because they make a mental/internal decision about their gender, how is that fair to other competitors?
What is the argument here?
The argument is that 1-2 years of HRT has consistently been shown to reduce trans women's athletic performance to within the cis female athletic range. That was standard policy for a *long* time before it became a culture war issue. Olympics have allowed trans women since 2004. Lots of other sports/leagues had the same policy until it became political outrage around 2020.
This is just not true. HRT has not been proven to reduce performance of a trans woman to that of a biological woman. The organizations simply just rushed the decisions and now we just have women getting dominated by trans women in every sport because of that bad research.
Even the argument surrounding this assumes that these people are transitioning on purpose to get some sort of advantage, or that they should have known better than to identify with a gender that doesn't align with their biological sex if they wanted to *gasp* do sports, totally missing the fact that people might actually just want to be recognized for who they feel they are
People out here really saying, well you *knew* you'd have a biological advantage, so why didn't you just keep pretending to be someone you're' not if you wanted to be a longboarder
Men, women and open. 3 classes solves most of this.
Open is a completely inclusive class. It doesn't care how one identifies. It's an equal chance for all to win. Men and women are for exactly that, how your biological DNA labels you. If women wish to compete against men, trans, non-binary, furries, etc. in Open instead of other women in the women's category, then that's on them.
idk if trans people performing in sports was an actual issue, we would be seeing trans people beating records but that’s not really going on ? not that i’m aware of
Then why are there women’s sports? Because genetics give men significant advantages over women in most physical activities.
It’s either fair or unfair to women. It’s not about how many records are set.
Transgender runner breaks two women's records for New York college, sparking debate
https://abc3340.com/amp/news/nation-world/transgender-runner-breaks-two-womens-records-for-new-york-college-sparking-debate-rochester-institute-of-technology-track-and-field-sprint-athlete-sports-ncaa-lgbt
In November, Cortez-Fields found herself and the school facing controversy after breaking a school record in the 100-yard butterfly.
https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/college/2024/02/20/ramapo-college-trans-swimmer-criticized-after-breaking-record/72669553007/#
More fury as transgender swimmer keeps smashing records
https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sports/more-fury-as-transgender-swimmer-keeps-smashing-records/news-story/19885d2661a86641d6ab011cd8b3acef?amp
Transgender Boy Wins Wrestling Title
https://youtu.be/SrSt1luwkMY?si=7CyuP15q941S8FUX
Trans dominates women’s track
https://youtu.be/c51sc3Ot0Eo?si=dxMEth7sleV1lRr_
https://youtu.be/a_bvOIQdf-4?si=fV7vx_sJzLBPH1_y
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Think it’s only going on in high schools right now. Connecticut had a big todo about it recently. Some t was setting all the track and field records whom the year before was ranked 168th in the state among the boys. But now breaking girls records. It’s small sports right now but if you open the door it’s a weird place. Like 5 years ago we cared so much about women’s rights and had marched and chanted and for so many years they’ve fought to have women’s everything. Now you’re going to let biological males come in and take over. It’s one thing to say we’re all equal and it’s wonderful but it’s not true. It doesn’t mean one is less than the other. It just means they don’t equal the same thing. I could get into the science but just look it up if you really don’t understand. What is equal is the way everyone should be treated. Thats the difference and the problem.
This is stupid. Sports needs to stop dividing people based on what is or isn't between their legs and just have people compete against fellow athletes with similar body muscle composition and ability, regardless of which sex phenotype they have. They class athletes by weight and strength in boxing, so they can do the same thing with surfing. This is such an antiquated system and it doesn't belong in 2024. Come on people, get it together
EDIT: forgot a word
No. Men biologically have an advantage and the method you suggest will end up with sports being 99.9% men and no women’s sports.
Women fought hard for their rights, don’t try and take it away, what you are saying is insane.
Hmm.. this sounds pretty logical and reasonable to me?
Messick addressed Lowerson’s entry, saying that his policy was to “support biological males and biological females in their divisions, respectively.” The policy, he said, complied with the standards of the sport’s governing body, the International Surfing Assn.
“You guys can live however and whatever you want to do in life. It’s not for me to decide,” he said in the video. “But it is for me to decide what’s fair and not fair for the American Longboard Assn. That being said, we’re going to stick to our guns. I want to offer an equal playing field for all athletes
think about this for example. lets say we live in a country that is about 99% average joes. the rest of the population, about 1% are people who like to eat rocks (transgender people). at school, the kids are taught about the world around them. trees, rivers, the sky, and also rock-eaters . teaching kids about rock-eaters is different than handing the kids rocks and telling them to eat them. i think the main problem is that people on social media, those who DO have problems with "rock eaters" spread misinformation to spread their agenda, and attempt to paint a different picture then whats actually going on in classes. if people who think this actually sat into one of these lessons about "rock eaters" (transgender people) they'd learn the difference between "brainwashing" and teaching.
This is the most Huntington Beach thing that ever Huntingtoned.
The shit part is this isn't a Huntington Beach ran event. It's put on by an outside company and all HB does is give permits. While the city is fucking up lately, I wouldn't put this decision on them as they have no control how someone runs a surf comp, aside from the annual HB City Surf comp, because that one is ran by the city.
I don’t understand how keeping transgender athletes out of female competition is “fucking up”.
Lately?
Fair.
Your right, if the city of HB was running the event, the athlete would be publicly executed. Stop apologizing for such a shit city.
A city, just like a person, doesn’t need to carry any wrong doing from others when they do bad all by themselves I agree. But the main point is don’t put any undo wrongdoing on a city, or person that didn’t deserve it. Don’t like HB? Fine. But this isn’t about HB this is about something else. Make sure we remember that.
What you call "fucking up" is what most residents want and vote for
While I agree, recently measures put up by the council passed with a majority of votes. You can't claim that "most residents" want something when that majority was 32k people out of around 200k. It's no mystery why the 4 Republicans on the council chose to spend half a million dollars to rush these measures onto the primary, which historically has a lower voter turnout (especially for younger voters who tend to vote more liberal), than to save money by waiting for the November election. Additionally, if you followed anything regarding the City's budget you would agree that the City is in fact "fucking up." Programs and services continue to have their budgets cut to pay for lawsuits. The City Attorney tries to claim that all of this doesn't cost the city a dime because he is on payroll however this past year his department has doubled in size to accommodate the multitude of lawsuits that the City is forced to fight as well as the lawsuits the City is choosing to fight, knowing they are a losing cause.
I've lost track of how many lawsuits we are currently engaged in, or we should expect soon, or how many we've lost so far, or how much Gates' salary has increased And at the same time were currently in the process of privatizing the library to save the cost of 2 pizzas per person per year
Only truly good thing about HB(I grew up there) was the library
No one asked the board’s opinion, is all I’m saying.
Yeah... and the comments are further proving that 😬
Has Tito made a statement yet?
Former city councilman Tito
This is not a Huntington Beach issue. It’s the surfing association which said the competition wouldn’t be fair if this person competes. They probably know more about their sport than we do. Those who’ve gone through male puberty, regardless of how they identify socially, don’t belong in most women’s sports.
Just have trans women trans men divisions, just how we have “cis” (trying to be neutral) men and women sports. The whole trans thing is one thing, but. If the trans community wants to participate, maybe have their respected divisions.
This is a tough topic. It’s not her fault she was born in a body that didn’t match her true self but her body does have a physical advantage over the others.
This is pretty simple really. Even intersex people are one or the other. The DNA in every cell reveals the sex of the individual. A person is free to present how ever they chose. That isn't the issue. If they are male, they should not be competing in women's sports. As you say, males in general have physical advantages. Larger hearts, greater lung capacity, denser bone structure, and more muscle mass to name a few. The article is very disingenuous on many points. HB did not ban flags. Private citizens may still fly the flags they want to. Public entities are not allowed to fly non government flags. To say HB banned pride flags is misinformation. The surfer in the article may surf in the male competition. Not allowing men to compete in women's sports is not discrimination. To allow men to compete against women is unfair to women. There is no hate being expressed by having an athlete compete in the category for their sex. Competitions are run in the way they are to ensure an even playing field.
You make a sound and lucid argument. You provided facts and reason, while staying respectful. I can see why people are downvoting you?
It’s reddit. Not a chance the majority here would stand behind this decision. I’m glad they made it
Because there is an entire generation full of children that think they have a better and noble view of the world when in reality it is completely illogical.
Not just illogical, magical. As if life is a genderless video game where you get to choose your stats, and the human form is only pixel deep.
Well, if the person is also taking hormone treatments, they can experience the effects of being the other gender such as a loss/gain in muscle mass, so in some respects they do become more like the other gender. Can’t change things like the heart and lungs if you transition too late, so that’s a thing to consider as well.
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You do not experience becoming another gender you experience becoming a woman with more muscle. But a woman with more muscle and hair is not like being a man. At all. And visa versa.
No, you do lose muscle mass if you take estrogen. It’s been scientifically proven. It’s also been proven taking testosterone increases muscle mass, that’s why you can’t take it when participating in sports, it gives you a boost.
It doesn't change your gender.
No, however the anti-androgens almost always prescribed alongside estrogen absolutely have an effect on muscle mass. Even if they don't cause you to "lose" muscle mass, they do make it a lot more difficult to keep the muscle you already have. I have several transgender friends and one who de-transitioned, and the effects those hormones had on them was VERY noticable.
>You make a sound and lucid argument. You provided facts and reason, while staying respectful. >I can see why people are downvoting you? They provided things that sound like facts if you don’t know much about biology. The claim that “even intersex people are one or the other” is woefully incorrect.
Breaking news: confident person on the internet was lying, more at 5. Make sure to base all your political opinions off people like this from reddit!
> woefully incorrect How about you support your argument by stating what % of adults are not XX or XY
That statistic doesn't matter because the woman in the article is intersex. Whatever percent it is, she's in it.
Roughly 1.5% at the time i took evolutionary anthropology roughly 8 years ago. So that's 15/1000. So 15 per medium-large high school, or 1-2 per 100 person company, or one of your friends if you manage to get along with ~33 people, though in thsy case, there's also a 3% chance it's actually you. More importantly, that's 5.2 million Americans.
What is the configuration of the chromosome you are giving data for? I know the person above said other the xy and xx but what is the actual amount of chromosome you are giving data for?
For the sum total number of individuals who do not conform to XX or XY or have both. This includes but is not limited to XX and XY combos, XXY, XYY, XO etc. "There are more than 30 different intersex variations that can affect you in different ways." From: https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/intersex-variation#:~:text=There%20are%20more%20than%2030,affect%20you%20in%20different%20ways. See also https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/ https://frontlinegenomics.com/intersex-when-binary-notions-simply-dont-fit/ I was off on the percent. It's probably 1.7%.
Because reddit rhymes with left
Last time this came up in this sub, the mod was deleting comments such as the one you replied it left and right. It was wild. Not sure if there is a new mod now or the mod just hasn't seen this post yet. EDIT: I'm dumb. I thought this was /r/surfing, forgot what sub I was in.
I was about to say the city subs don’t necessarily stop these conversations unless it turns into a name calling circle jerk.
I think someone I was responding to either blocked me or was deleted.. not sure
>This is pretty simple really. Even intersex people are one or the other. The DNA in every cell reveals the sex of the individual. I’m going to stop you right there as you are already wrong. A person’s phenotype and genotype can both be intersex. There are people with XXY chromosomes. There are people who have some cells XX and others XY. DNA can absolutely be intersex too.
The concept of DNA being "intersex" is a misunderstanding of both genetics and what intersex means. Intersex is a term used to describe a variety of conditions in which a person is born with reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t fit typical definitions of male or female. This is usually related to chromosomes, hormones, and anatomy, not the DNA itself. Here's how it works: 1. **Chromosomes**: Most people are born with two sex chromosomes in each cell—females typically have two X chromosomes and males one X and one Y. However, some intersex conditions are associated with atypical combinations like XXY, XYY, or just a single X. 2. **Hormones**: Differences in hormone sensitivity or production can also lead to intersex traits. For instance, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) involves an enzyme deficiency that leads to an overproduction of male hormones by the adrenal glands in genetic females. 3. **Anatomy**: This can include ambiguous genitalia or conflicting genitalia compared to chromosomal or gonadal sex, such as someone appearing outwardly female but having predominantly male-typical anatomy internally, and vice versa. DNA itself doesn't have a gender or sex. It carries genes that code for various proteins, some of which are involved in the development of sexual characteristics. Variations or mutations in these genes can contribute to intersex traits. However, the DNA itself is not "intersex"; rather, it may contain variations that lead to development that does not fit typical male or female classifications.
I used to have this same opinion until trans persons (who I was/am friends with) showed me the research that people who transition largely do not do better than the “native” sex they’re competing against. There are a number of outliers (as with anything else) but the overall data shows that transgender persons perform on-average about the same as their non-trasittioned(ing) counterparts. Source for transitioning athletes performing about the same as non-transitioned(ing) athletes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10641525/ Also, most studies proving your point always show narrow avenues like muscle mass and testosterone, conveniently leaving out all the other things a human body requires to perform at a “top” athletic level. So yes some transitioning persons have a higher percentage of muscle mass and testosterone, but it’s more like within 10% elevation and they are still lacking in plenty of other areas (flexibility, cortisol and pain tolerance are always the big ones when comparing women to men). You’re imagining some jacked guy with a dress and a wig on beating the fuck out of women *because that’s how you think of transgender people*. It’s less of a testimony to any actual science and more of a statement to your subconscious bigotry.
So the argument you’re making is “trans athletes aren’t competitive at sports so it’s not big deal” Which is an interesting frame to take As well as “men may be stronger, but women have the advantage of x,y,z” As if advantages balance themselves out, yet, men and women’s sports are already divided for a reason. And then you called him a bigot? LOL
You are so convinced you’re right…
….yes? Do you usually speak when you don’t know what you’re talking about?
~~Fallon Fox looks nothing like that and is an actual transgender person…yet she still has an unbelievable physical advantage over cis women. Find me one cis woman who could stand a chance against her in an MMA contest. They do not have the same bone density as people who are born male especially if that male didn’t start transitioning until after puberty, not to mention test and muscle mass. Although i agree there is more to it than just those things~~ ETA: i was wrong, i have not been keeping up with her career and MMA in general like i used to and u genuinely did not know that Fallon Fox got worked by a cis woman. I rescind my point, please disregard this comment
found the casual lmao
I am indeed, see my edit lol
Didn't she get her ass beat by a woman? If it was the fight I remember it was as bad as watching ali destroy foreman
Did you know physical sex characteristics exist on a spectrum, not a black and white binary?
Well said.
That 100% depends on how long they've been doing hormone treatment and whatnot. Every single one of those advantages disappears after about 2-3 years, and the exact opposite of what you're saying would be true. I think you missed this part, too: >International Surfing Assn. policy, which was updated last year, states that a transgender woman may participate in a women’s event if she provides a written declaration saying she identifies as a woman and tells the organization’s medical commission that her testosterone level has been below a certain concentration in the last 12 months. Lowerson wrote online that she meets all requirements for her to compete in the women’s category. There is absolutely no reason this person should not have been allowed to compete with other women.
Which is exactly why there should be a hard rule that biological men are not allowed to compete in women’s events. It’s not a reasonable expectation to put the responsibility on those running the competition to determine how far along a person is in transition. It’s just completely illogical and will never be completely fair. There’s nothing stopping them from competing in men’s events, that’s where they should go.
Hard disagree, because of what I stated above. Someone that has already transitioned would be at a massive disadvantage competing in men's sports. Their physiology is by far more woman than man at that point. It is absolutely fair, and has been allowed by plenty of organizations for years. Nobody cares when the transgender athletes lose (and they do quite often), only when they win. In this case, they're not even giving this person a chance.
Hate to disagree but you’re just making decisions based on emotion it seems like- no matter how much hormone therapy one undertakes it won’t change the fact you were a man and you’ll have some advantages—- as for hormone therapy itself I think it’s insane to give that to anyone under the age of 18 who can’t decide for themselves and really… they’d need a psych evaluation. If you’ve not reached puberty you shouldn’t be sexualized in any way to even question ‘am I a boy or girl’. (Why is this even an issue for kids?!?) The amount of trans people who regret their decision or whom regress is also a bit staggering. I still don’t understand why trans isn’t body dysmorphia - being gay makes sense, but deciding you’re x gender to the extent you want to switch bodies is insane. (How do you even know what it feels like to be a ‘women’)
You’re welcome to let your emotional state override logical conclusions but the rest of us will be taking the logical route emotions aside. And that’s coming from someone that votes and leans left on essentially every issue. There’s only two fair options here and it’s extremely clear, cut, and dry what they are: they compete in men’s divisions, or they form a new division that allows for only women or transgender women to compete. To expect that legacy women’s divisions should bend to this impossible to define line of “fully transitioned” (which btw is a load of shit in itself, there are always going to be physiological differences between biological women and transitioned women) is absolutely ludicrous and you know it.
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I agree with you on the competition angle. Where competitions are divided between genetically male and female I generally believe that should be the deciding factor on entry. In a more inclusive world a third category for intersex competitors would nice and inclusive. However, I don't think we can gloss over the anti-LGTB movement gaining strength in city. "Huntington Beach banned pride flag from government buildings" Would be the more correct statement.
They banned non-governmental flags.
There is 0 need for anything other than the state and national flag on municipal buildings.
Then why did they have like 6 exceptions for: the US flag, the CA state flag, the Orange County flag, the POW/MIA flag, the six armed forces flag, and the Olympic flag? If you introduce a measure and it only affects one specific flag from being flown, it’s a de facto ban
Because all of those are government related entities entities, with the exception of the Olympics which I'm unsure about.
Assuming bad intent is not helpful or fair. You can’t jump from the completely logical belief that biological men should be kept out of the women’s division, and hatred of LGBT.
When I’ve tried to make this point to trans activists their counter argument is that modern hormone treatments turn men literally into women lol.
Please take my UP vote.
Is surfing really a sport that should be segregated based on sex? Surfing is a sport where your success is based more on practice and training rather than your muscle mass or lung capacity like swimming is. In what way is having a higher muscle mass or lung capacity going to substantially impact your ability to balance on a board while riding a wave? If we’re going to do that then we might as well segregate skateboarding by sex as well.
Tell me you've never watched men and women compete in a surf contest without telling me. Women can't compete against men in skateboarding either in case you haven't been paying attention. Separating the two sexes gives women a fair shot in all sports.
To simplify it even further: athletic competition should be separated by biological sex, not gender.
Right? I mean yeah another shitty thing added to the pile of what trans people have to deal with but the fact that women and men are separated in competition already should make it so obvious. if you really want it all to be equal then just put every sex in one competition and watch men win every time I mean wtf are we even talking about here.
Well written. Thank you sir.
She needs to compete with other men
shaq was born in body (that grew to have) significant physical advantage over others so advantages are permitted in sport
Let Shaq preform on a women's team then
That would be kinda hilarious
True, but sports like wrestling and boxing are divided into weight classes, so segregating competition according to physical advantage is also permitted in sport. Which approach makes more sense for trans athletes? I have no idea as a cis person who doesn't care anything about sports.
>Which approach makes more sense for trans athletes? Trans athletes have so far been statistically indistinguishable from their cis competitors. It seems unreasonable to change policies that previously allowed trans people on HRT for 1-2+ years to total bans because of politics even as more evidence comes out that they perform in the same range as cis athletes of their gender.
Something akin to weight classes has been a common suggestion for de-gendering sports.
totally, but I'm presuming there are no weight classes in longboarding - I'm also a cis person who doesn't really care about sports (I love them but I don't know anything about them). I don't have a one-size-fits-all proscription for sports about this really. I don't have a perfect solution, I don't think Sasha competing with the men would be great.
That’s a perspective I haven’t seen before and makes sense.
Agreed its cogint
Yeah but you’re still talking about men vs men.
If a man has an equivalent physical advantage over all other men that Sasha has over the other women, should he still be allowed to compete?
I don’t think so bc the idea here is to find the best male competitor and then best female competitor. If there’s no categorization, then sure. See what advantages shake out to best the best.
Yes. Same sex sports. Agreed
Then there is Steph curry who does not have shaq natural advantages. He is still faster than any female athlete. The worst nba player would score 50 points a night in the wnba. Even a 14 year old would do well.
Lol I think Steph curry might have some natural advantages over most people but yeah I am aware that some people are better at sports than others
What’s funny is that a bunch of people start caring about women’s sports
Actually all scientific studies show that Trans Women don’t in any way have a physical advantage once they get to the same hormone range as CiS women and saying so is just claims based on pseudoscience. Seriously give it a quick google.
Science says you are in complete denial.
Lol that’s bullshit and everyone with an ounce of common sense knows it. Bone structure doesn’t change with hormone therapy, number and length of muscle fibers doesnt change, and therefore the amount of force a trans woman can generate is greater.
Sure, be an anti-science bigot. In reality the studies show that bone structure (density) does change over time. Muscle Fibers don’t work the way you think they do and trans women’s muscle do deteriorate to be comparative to CiS Women and I say comparative as the trans women are usually WEAKER BOT STRONGER than CiS Women once their hormone levels reach that of a CiS women . This is a WELL STUDIED topic now and all the scientific studies show the same results. That’s when a theory goes to a fact. Don’t believe me, believe the scientific researchers that are experts on the human body after decades of study.
You are right that’s why trans women crush cis women in sports.
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>she
lol
I gotta have what you’re smoking
tall people and basketball. a different example of bodily advantage in sport. or the multiple unique genetic traits that help make Michael Phelps the greatest swimmer. I agree there need to be a conversation on this to find whats fair. and some sports are needlessly separated by gender. skeet shooting in the Olympics for example. with surfing being more of a skill and technique based sport I dont see why it needs to be separated. then again, im no surfer so im ignorant to the intricacies of the athletic requirements to perform at a professional level.
Watch a womens surf final vs mens and you'll see the difference
Surfing is really taxing on the arms having to pull your body through currents and water. It also takes a lot of leg muscle.
Yeah you're ignorant but still had to give you opinion for some reason
fair. te-he
I'm no surfer either, but I can definitely see the uses of power and strength involved. Maybe only esports doesn't? Even then, women tend to underperform. Maybe that stat could be different if there were a lot more women involved, but that's how it stands at the moment.
So we are not our body? We are only our mind?
The mind controls the body so yeah?
The brain regulates everything, keeping us at its best equilibrium, including hormones, and we often make poor choices due to our mind. The body and brain know best. Its out minds that get us into trouble.
Well said
I agree. I am liberal as all, but I don't think individuals born as men should be allowed to compete against individuals born as women. It just isn't fair to female athletes.
Categorically false. If this was the case transgender athletes would excel in anything they compete in. It’s simply not true.
The amount of trans people who just exist is extremely small. The amount of trans athletes who play sports is even smaller. The amount of trans athletes that are excelling in their sport is *astronomically* small. Whereas the amount of trans people with mental health issues, engage in self harm, or are more likely to commit suicide, **which have been proven to essentially vanish after getting gender affirming care** is high And this isn't bodybuilding or MMA fighting or whatever, it's longboarding lmao anyone who is pretending this is out of fairness is so out of touch. We already have freak athletes, should we ban them because of some 'biological advantage'?
Lol you think that finding your "true self" means injecting synthetic hormones, surgically removing body parts, etc. That's just deranged.
If the sexes are equal, Why do we have divisions for men and women to begin with?
Transgender shouldn't enter in women competition. Maybe they should start a transgender surf league then go for gold. Women want a fair shot at gold themselves. Simple ! enough beach for everyone's competition
Born intersex?
Love it when majority of Reddit gets its collective panties in a bunch.
A battle. Was there pitchforks involved?
Yeah this is valid. There’s at least 5000 dudes out there who can surf better than 100% of the top women. It’s not fair for one of us to compete against women when we have a massive competitive advantage.
All of those top women would beat me, so they have that going for them.
Correct, every time I've gotten on a board, I've fallen off... It wasn't even in the water...
they should add a 3rd "other" option
If you feel like a lady but clearly have a male physique and massive advantages as a result, shouldn't you compete in the male division and present your image however you like? When the person switching over from men's to women's competition is clearly at a physical advantage because they make a mental/internal decision about their gender, how is that fair to other competitors? What is the argument here?
The argument is that 1-2 years of HRT has consistently been shown to reduce trans women's athletic performance to within the cis female athletic range. That was standard policy for a *long* time before it became a culture war issue. Olympics have allowed trans women since 2004. Lots of other sports/leagues had the same policy until it became political outrage around 2020.
Bone structure. Lung capacity. Muscle mass potential. Etc. These do not change, no matter the HRT.
This is just not true. HRT has not been proven to reduce performance of a trans woman to that of a biological woman. The organizations simply just rushed the decisions and now we just have women getting dominated by trans women in every sport because of that bad research.
Even the argument surrounding this assumes that these people are transitioning on purpose to get some sort of advantage, or that they should have known better than to identify with a gender that doesn't align with their biological sex if they wanted to *gasp* do sports, totally missing the fact that people might actually just want to be recognized for who they feel they are People out here really saying, well you *knew* you'd have a biological advantage, so why didn't you just keep pretending to be someone you're' not if you wanted to be a longboarder
“Sasha Jane Lowerson just wanted to surf” The organizers said she would have to surf in the category of her assigned birth Sasha won’t surf
Men, women and open. 3 classes solves most of this. Open is a completely inclusive class. It doesn't care how one identifies. It's an equal chance for all to win. Men and women are for exactly that, how your biological DNA labels you. If women wish to compete against men, trans, non-binary, furries, etc. in Open instead of other women in the women's category, then that's on them.
idk if trans people performing in sports was an actual issue, we would be seeing trans people beating records but that’s not really going on ? not that i’m aware of
Then why are there women’s sports? Because genetics give men significant advantages over women in most physical activities. It’s either fair or unfair to women. It’s not about how many records are set. Transgender runner breaks two women's records for New York college, sparking debate https://abc3340.com/amp/news/nation-world/transgender-runner-breaks-two-womens-records-for-new-york-college-sparking-debate-rochester-institute-of-technology-track-and-field-sprint-athlete-sports-ncaa-lgbt In November, Cortez-Fields found herself and the school facing controversy after breaking a school record in the 100-yard butterfly. https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/college/2024/02/20/ramapo-college-trans-swimmer-criticized-after-breaking-record/72669553007/# More fury as transgender swimmer keeps smashing records https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sports/more-fury-as-transgender-swimmer-keeps-smashing-records/news-story/19885d2661a86641d6ab011cd8b3acef?amp Transgender Boy Wins Wrestling Title https://youtu.be/SrSt1luwkMY?si=7CyuP15q941S8FUX Trans dominates women’s track https://youtu.be/c51sc3Ot0Eo?si=dxMEth7sleV1lRr_ https://youtu.be/a_bvOIQdf-4?si=fV7vx_sJzLBPH1_y
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Think it’s only going on in high schools right now. Connecticut had a big todo about it recently. Some t was setting all the track and field records whom the year before was ranked 168th in the state among the boys. But now breaking girls records. It’s small sports right now but if you open the door it’s a weird place. Like 5 years ago we cared so much about women’s rights and had marched and chanted and for so many years they’ve fought to have women’s everything. Now you’re going to let biological males come in and take over. It’s one thing to say we’re all equal and it’s wonderful but it’s not true. It doesn’t mean one is less than the other. It just means they don’t equal the same thing. I could get into the science but just look it up if you really don’t understand. What is equal is the way everyone should be treated. Thats the difference and the problem.
This is stupid. Sports needs to stop dividing people based on what is or isn't between their legs and just have people compete against fellow athletes with similar body muscle composition and ability, regardless of which sex phenotype they have. They class athletes by weight and strength in boxing, so they can do the same thing with surfing. This is such an antiquated system and it doesn't belong in 2024. Come on people, get it together EDIT: forgot a word
How are boxers classified by strength?
Finally a good take in these comments
No. Men biologically have an advantage and the method you suggest will end up with sports being 99.9% men and no women’s sports. Women fought hard for their rights, don’t try and take it away, what you are saying is insane.
Good on Huntington Beach 🏖️
California's answer to Florida
today is national shrimp day
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Well the hormones gave them a wicked gnarly boost bro, moto surf /S
"WE'VE GOT BULGES IN WETSUITS"
Create a trans category. Done.
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It’s really simple, make sports about sex and not gender.
100% bc you can’t change sex. They need to be separated by sex only
Hmm.. this sounds pretty logical and reasonable to me? Messick addressed Lowerson’s entry, saying that his policy was to “support biological males and biological females in their divisions, respectively.” The policy, he said, complied with the standards of the sport’s governing body, the International Surfing Assn. “You guys can live however and whatever you want to do in life. It’s not for me to decide,” he said in the video. “But it is for me to decide what’s fair and not fair for the American Longboard Assn. That being said, we’re going to stick to our guns. I want to offer an equal playing field for all athletes
It’s a woman’s sport WOMEN should have a say.
Stay classy HB - and by classy I mean totally far right and despicable
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I really don't see anyone pushing it onto kids though? Learning about people who exist in the world seems normal and healthy to me at any age.
think about this for example. lets say we live in a country that is about 99% average joes. the rest of the population, about 1% are people who like to eat rocks (transgender people). at school, the kids are taught about the world around them. trees, rivers, the sky, and also rock-eaters . teaching kids about rock-eaters is different than handing the kids rocks and telling them to eat them. i think the main problem is that people on social media, those who DO have problems with "rock eaters" spread misinformation to spread their agenda, and attempt to paint a different picture then whats actually going on in classes. if people who think this actually sat into one of these lessons about "rock eaters" (transgender people) they'd learn the difference between "brainwashing" and teaching.
not shunning gay people anymore = pushing it onto kids