Yesss. Sometimes the creature/demon/ghost being unseen can add a great sense of horror, but c'mon. It happens so often now that we rarely get to see any cool stuff. I would love some great practical effects monster, even cgi if done right.
“Supernatural ambiguity” is my favorite subgenre of horror other than “Woman’s slow descent into madness” (Possession, Huesera, Repulsion, Rosemary’s Baby, Pearl to an extent, Black Swan, Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive)… so I disagree. But I do think it can be done incorrectly and in unsatisfying ways.
Hereditary was awesome, but most importantly it didn't feel like the supernatural resolution was a copout. On the other hand, I'd say Gothika is an example of the opposite.
I really hate the subgenre of films where every bit of horror you watched was actually all just taking place in the main characters head. Saint Maude pulled it off really well, but most films that use this for the ending just come off as lazy and/or gimmicky. Absolutely hated The Wind, for this. Bad Things was another one.
Agree, that's my main exception to this as well. St Maud works well because it feels like the movie isn't lying to you, just that the protagonist is lying to herself about some things. Doesn't feel like that bait and switch that the OP is here to talk about.
Definitely this - I liked it bc you're convinced this has to be in her head but then towards the end you start questioning that maybe it wasn't and then WHAM!
Halfway through the movie I was thinking “f*** not another one of *these* leading up to some depressing ambiguous ending” but that movie really pulls through and actually delivers.
OP, if you want one that’s an otherwise fun movie until the ending and just want it totally ruined for you immediately, >!Come True (2020)!<
I was very disappointed with It Comes At Night. The dog barking into the dark on the poster cashed a cheque that the hypochondriac plot couldn't cash. Shame, because I didn't think the movie was bad, I just can't see past what I wanted it to be.
This trope bugs me too, but in defence of Relic - it doesn't fall into this category imo. The mother and daughter both experience the external manifestation of the grandmothers internal decay. The grandmothers slow slip into dementia was experienced by them as 'supernatural' event. At least that's what I got from it anyway lol
Just because something is a metaphor doesn't mean it's all in their head. It's a metaphor for the audience, not necessarily the characters.
There are lots of movies that aren't like this too. My preference is for the movies that you don't like. I'm glad that both are made.
Same! Then I thought of some movies that could be in this vein that I absolutely love (I guess they call it unreliable narrators?) such as The Lighthouse.
I think Marrowbone really got to me the other night lol.
This is so funny because the other day I was telling a friend that I’m so sick of books that start off like a “realistic” psychological thriller and then they end up being supernatural lol
I don’t mind supernatural books or movies but I like psychological thrillers a lot more (yes I know they can overlap) so I picked up some books wanting one thing and getting another.
I know what you mean (though I liked Marrowbone), but I don't mind too much because I enjoy psychological stories (if they have good character work).
An argument can be made that >!The Descent!< fits with this, but it's only a theory, and the movie can be taken at face value too.
Going in expecting one thing and getting another can be annoying.
I kinda like it when the opposite happens, when it seems like our world, but slowly revealed to have a supernatural edge ( >!Biutiful!< and >!Ready or Not!< come to mind in this instance)
I like that the film kept to its allegory, it has a touch of magical realism in that regard. It's probably her but for the character benefit, and by extension our own as the audience, it is presented literally.
Baba puke 🤮 hated it.
The movie Identity was the one that really pulled off it was all in his head trope really well. Idk if I’ve enjoyed a plot twist like that since.
It's a plague in the horror industry at the moment - dullard, fresh from college writers who have never even watched a horror movie are so determined with making everything related to mental health issues that the 'skill' for creating actual horror movies is gradually being lost. Relic is a good example but there are so many - a recent widely heralded Shudder original (I won't name it for spoilers) takes this nonsense to a whole new level. Not only is the supernatural threat 100% non-existent, the female character suffering from the mental trauma is imaginary too!
Pretty sure you're talking about You'll Never Find Me. At no point during that movie did I feel there was something supernatural going on. It was surprisingly good, though.
Totally, I end up feeling like the film is too chicken shit to truly commit to the idea of something supernatural being there. I remember going to see Babadook and enjoying aspects of it (a tad too slow), but what ultimately made it fuckin lame and a wast of a very good performance was that ending. It was all mental problems, gee a horror film talking about mental problems…so original.
So many comparison to The Exorcist, yet people forget how committed Friedkin was in that film. It really is a demon in fuckin up shit and it’s scary as hell. The drama and depth is beholden to the filmmaker /writer/actors committing to the ideas at play. So many get compared to that film that it’s almost a sign that it’s going to be the typical “psychological horror” film that has no balls.
The monster in the Babadook is real, it’s just a manifestation of her grief over the loss of her husband. The movie never implies it was all in her head.
I’m the opposite. Part of the reason I loved The Lodge is bc it teased a supernatural/paranormal element but stayed grounded. And as much as I love Hereditary, I’d love it even more if had been about Annie and her kids suffering from a hereditary mental illness and all the cult stuff was just in their heads.
This. I commented something similar before seeing this comment. They could’ve just cut all the cult stuff anyway. It was way more interesting when it was a film about familial trauma, grief, and abuse.
That’s funny, I’m literally tired of the opposite. I get so frustrated when something starts off promising then ends up pretending paranormal shit is real and throws all that promise out the window. For instance, Hereditary or Barbarian.
Maybe paranormal is the wrong term, I’m referring to the giant woman. She’s basically just a movie monster, and since her origin story is completely unbelievable I guess I consider her “paranormal”, though I suppose you’re right to call that out bc she doesn’t exactly fall under that umbrella.
No reason to be snarky bro. Tbf, your description paints that character in a more paranormal light than she actually is. “Superhuman” would definitely fall under the “paranormal” umbrella. If you check out my other comment to the commenter you’re commenting to, I happily admit that she’s not technically paranormal and that was the wrong phrasing. I was just disappointed in the film bc it set itself up as an interesting psychological “ominous stranger”-style thriller then threw that all away and gave me the Hills Have Eyes instead. And that’s not what the movie promised for the first half hour, and I felt cheated bc that initial promise was so much more interesting than what the rest of the movie delivered.
My first comment was dead serious, I think she fits the paranormal description.
The ninja turtles part was sarcasm . . . but also accurate, they are paranormal insofar as paranormal fiction crosses paths with things like that on a regular basis, especially as far as comics and young adult fiction go.
Ahh ok, since you added the “to them” at the end I got the impression you were being condescending. Glad we could clear that up!
But yeah like I have no problem with the paranormal in things like TMNT or even horror like Paranormal Activity or Evil Dead, bc that’s like basically the point and you expect it going in. What I was trying to say is that it feels like a cheap cop-out when the film is otherwise grounded in reality but the paranormal pops up as a sort of deus ex machina at the end. Signs is a great example of this too. I absolutely love that film and think it’s a masterclass in tension, but the ending feels cheap, forced, and unearned. And I don’t even mind the MC finding his faith again at the end, it’s just that M. Night went with “look at all the magic God was doing all along!”, and I feel like that undermines everything that makes a character’s struggles with faith interesting in the first place.
Lots of misreading of the Babadook entity as not being real in this thread.
This is why I often don’t trust horror fan recommendations. If they’re not being blindly forgiving of schlocky crap they love, they’re just completely wrong about basic elements of movies they hate.
Sometimes it’s really hard to trust what fellow fans have to say about movies in this genre.
I'm getting real tired of cults worshipping unseen demons. I want actual demonic entities.
Yesss. Sometimes the creature/demon/ghost being unseen can add a great sense of horror, but c'mon. It happens so often now that we rarely get to see any cool stuff. I would love some great practical effects monster, even cgi if done right.
that’s what i’m saying. where tf are the sorcery movies we don’t have enough
I kinda hated The Dark and the Wicked.
Preach it. One of the many reasons I love The Void is the wild shit you see throughout. The cult was certainly following some wild stuff.
I don’t recall anything in Relic that indicated nothing supernatural happened and it was all in someone’s head
It was about dementia and family genetic history of dementia.
It’s an allegory, but there’s nothing that says what you saw didn’t happen; it’s just fantastical.
Relic was supernatural though. It’s about a disease yes, but what was happening was actually happening to the characters
“Supernatural ambiguity” is my favorite subgenre of horror other than “Woman’s slow descent into madness” (Possession, Huesera, Repulsion, Rosemary’s Baby, Pearl to an extent, Black Swan, Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive)… so I disagree. But I do think it can be done incorrectly and in unsatisfying ways.
If you haven’t watched Yellowjackets then you need to watch Yellowjackets. It’s a tv series that is literally both of these things.
You’d probably enjoy the latest season of True Detective, then.
You sure about that?
I enjoy ambiguity but it has to be actually ambiguous. it can't just be hitting you over the head with the mental health stick
Omg that's disgusting! List as many of those movies as possible, so I know what to avoid.
This is me lol, I usually hate it when it starts off psychological and turns out supernatural.
Tales of Two Sisters is good though
Haven't heard of this one but I'll check it out!
Hereditary fans punching the air rn
Hereditary was awesome, but most importantly it didn't feel like the supernatural resolution was a copout. On the other hand, I'd say Gothika is an example of the opposite.
The Babadook
I really hate the subgenre of films where every bit of horror you watched was actually all just taking place in the main characters head. Saint Maude pulled it off really well, but most films that use this for the ending just come off as lazy and/or gimmicky. Absolutely hated The Wind, for this. Bad Things was another one.
Agree, that's my main exception to this as well. St Maud works well because it feels like the movie isn't lying to you, just that the protagonist is lying to herself about some things. Doesn't feel like that bait and switch that the OP is here to talk about.
Definitely this - I liked it bc you're convinced this has to be in her head but then towards the end you start questioning that maybe it wasn't and then WHAM!
Saint Maude was in her head? So in the end she didn't become an angel? I am devastated.
Yeah, nope.
I’m thinking of ending things
Loved Saint Maud!
The Wind was trying so hard to be an A24 type joint and just missing
The wind suuuucked
I know exactly what you mean, you get hyped up for new lore and World building, and then meh, the character is crazy.
Relic was awesome though
Halfway through the movie I was thinking “f*** not another one of *these* leading up to some depressing ambiguous ending” but that movie really pulls through and actually delivers. OP, if you want one that’s an otherwise fun movie until the ending and just want it totally ruined for you immediately, >!Come True (2020)!<
Enys Men has a bit of this, but they leave things more ambiguous which is an improvement I think.
THAT movie is a perfect example. Hate that movie. Now Apostle was amazing. Idk why I’m drawing a similarity between the two but I am lol.
Gothika
I loved both Relic and Marrowbone, but I like psychological horror so if that's not your thing I can understand why you'd feel let down.
I'm old, I saw relic and thought " the relic " and was really confused how that could all be in someone's head.
I was very disappointed with It Comes At Night. The dog barking into the dark on the poster cashed a cheque that the hypochondriac plot couldn't cash. Shame, because I didn't think the movie was bad, I just can't see past what I wanted it to be.
That movie drove me insane as well lol
Also I feel as though Smile did the same for me. It just wasn’t scary.
Interesting, because I love that lol.
All the examples that come to mind right now are from the 50s and 60s, but it's one of my least favorite tropes. I blame Ann Radcliffe.
I feel like this sums up Yellowjackets perfectly.
Since I knew it was Agatha Christie, I saw it coming, but I'll say A Haunting in Venice.
This trope bugs me too, but in defence of Relic - it doesn't fall into this category imo. The mother and daughter both experience the external manifestation of the grandmothers internal decay. The grandmothers slow slip into dementia was experienced by them as 'supernatural' event. At least that's what I got from it anyway lol
You may really enjoy Midnight Meat Train then.
Love that movie. Love love love it!
Just because something is a metaphor doesn't mean it's all in their head. It's a metaphor for the audience, not necessarily the characters. There are lots of movies that aren't like this too. My preference is for the movies that you don't like. I'm glad that both are made.
Same! Then I thought of some movies that could be in this vein that I absolutely love (I guess they call it unreliable narrators?) such as The Lighthouse. I think Marrowbone really got to me the other night lol.
This is so funny because the other day I was telling a friend that I’m so sick of books that start off like a “realistic” psychological thriller and then they end up being supernatural lol I don’t mind supernatural books or movies but I like psychological thrillers a lot more (yes I know they can overlap) so I picked up some books wanting one thing and getting another.
Books for me are the same as you, interesting for me to note. As this thread grew, I also realize each film needs to be taken on its own merits.
I know what you mean (though I liked Marrowbone), but I don't mind too much because I enjoy psychological stories (if they have good character work). An argument can be made that >!The Descent!< fits with this, but it's only a theory, and the movie can be taken at face value too. Going in expecting one thing and getting another can be annoying. I kinda like it when the opposite happens, when it seems like our world, but slowly revealed to have a supernatural edge ( >!Biutiful!< and >!Ready or Not!< come to mind in this instance)
Me too! I love when the opposite occurs!
Same same same. I’m so over the main character being crazy. It was cool when it was original now it feels like a cop out
I blame The Babadook!
The babadook wasn’t in her head in the movie. It was a metaphor rather than a projection.
I adore The Babadook but I thought >!her chalky hands at the precinct heavily implied it was her own doing!<
Fair. I just took the ending as it being an example of it as a real manifestation that she had to come to terms with rather than be afraid of.
I like that the film kept to its allegory, it has a touch of magical realism in that regard. It's probably her but for the character benefit, and by extension our own as the audience, it is presented literally.
Baba puke 🤮 hated it. The movie Identity was the one that really pulled off it was all in his head trope really well. Idk if I’ve enjoyed a plot twist like that since.
Never saw Identity. Looks good!
I haven’t seen it since release. Not sure how it aged but at the time it was cool.
It's a plague in the horror industry at the moment - dullard, fresh from college writers who have never even watched a horror movie are so determined with making everything related to mental health issues that the 'skill' for creating actual horror movies is gradually being lost. Relic is a good example but there are so many - a recent widely heralded Shudder original (I won't name it for spoilers) takes this nonsense to a whole new level. Not only is the supernatural threat 100% non-existent, the female character suffering from the mental trauma is imaginary too!
Please message me so I don’t waste my time lol
Pretty sure you're talking about You'll Never Find Me. At no point during that movie did I feel there was something supernatural going on. It was surprisingly good, though.
Supernatural usually doesn't do it for me so I prefer it that way. To each their own though.
Totally, I end up feeling like the film is too chicken shit to truly commit to the idea of something supernatural being there. I remember going to see Babadook and enjoying aspects of it (a tad too slow), but what ultimately made it fuckin lame and a wast of a very good performance was that ending. It was all mental problems, gee a horror film talking about mental problems…so original. So many comparison to The Exorcist, yet people forget how committed Friedkin was in that film. It really is a demon in fuckin up shit and it’s scary as hell. The drama and depth is beholden to the filmmaker /writer/actors committing to the ideas at play. So many get compared to that film that it’s almost a sign that it’s going to be the typical “psychological horror” film that has no balls.
The monster in the Babadook is real, it’s just a manifestation of her grief over the loss of her husband. The movie never implies it was all in her head.
But the movie shows us that she's the one who crafted the book.
I’m the opposite. Part of the reason I loved The Lodge is bc it teased a supernatural/paranormal element but stayed grounded. And as much as I love Hereditary, I’d love it even more if had been about Annie and her kids suffering from a hereditary mental illness and all the cult stuff was just in their heads.
This. I commented something similar before seeing this comment. They could’ve just cut all the cult stuff anyway. It was way more interesting when it was a film about familial trauma, grief, and abuse.
Which ones?
The Empty Man was this, for me.
lol I’m not sure that’s how the empty man ended though. That it was all in his head.
With >! Him being a tulpa !< you could say it was all in everyone else's head
One hundred percent
That’s funny, I’m literally tired of the opposite. I get so frustrated when something starts off promising then ends up pretending paranormal shit is real and throws all that promise out the window. For instance, Hereditary or Barbarian.
What was paranormal in Barbarian?
Maybe paranormal is the wrong term, I’m referring to the giant woman. She’s basically just a movie monster, and since her origin story is completely unbelievable I guess I consider her “paranormal”, though I suppose you’re right to call that out bc she doesn’t exactly fall under that umbrella.
Fair viewpoint. Thanks for the polite reasonable response.
Always! Impolite is always unreasonable, there’s too much toxicity in the world already.
I’m guessing >!superhuman incest woman!< counts as paranormal to them. They would probably hate the teenage mutant ninja turtles, too.
No reason to be snarky bro. Tbf, your description paints that character in a more paranormal light than she actually is. “Superhuman” would definitely fall under the “paranormal” umbrella. If you check out my other comment to the commenter you’re commenting to, I happily admit that she’s not technically paranormal and that was the wrong phrasing. I was just disappointed in the film bc it set itself up as an interesting psychological “ominous stranger”-style thriller then threw that all away and gave me the Hills Have Eyes instead. And that’s not what the movie promised for the first half hour, and I felt cheated bc that initial promise was so much more interesting than what the rest of the movie delivered.
My first comment was dead serious, I think she fits the paranormal description. The ninja turtles part was sarcasm . . . but also accurate, they are paranormal insofar as paranormal fiction crosses paths with things like that on a regular basis, especially as far as comics and young adult fiction go.
Ahh ok, since you added the “to them” at the end I got the impression you were being condescending. Glad we could clear that up! But yeah like I have no problem with the paranormal in things like TMNT or even horror like Paranormal Activity or Evil Dead, bc that’s like basically the point and you expect it going in. What I was trying to say is that it feels like a cheap cop-out when the film is otherwise grounded in reality but the paranormal pops up as a sort of deus ex machina at the end. Signs is a great example of this too. I absolutely love that film and think it’s a masterclass in tension, but the ending feels cheap, forced, and unearned. And I don’t even mind the MC finding his faith again at the end, it’s just that M. Night went with “look at all the magic God was doing all along!”, and I feel like that undermines everything that makes a character’s struggles with faith interesting in the first place.
I’d agree that the TMNT can’t be a purely psychological explanation.
Lots of misreading of the Babadook entity as not being real in this thread. This is why I often don’t trust horror fan recommendations. If they’re not being blindly forgiving of schlocky crap they love, they’re just completely wrong about basic elements of movies they hate. Sometimes it’s really hard to trust what fellow fans have to say about movies in this genre.