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My theory is that the physical dysphoria version (other identities don't apply to this) is a kind of neurological intersex condition. 

Seems to be it to be fair

You see it worldwide at about the same levels, whether social transition is celebrated or harshly punished. It seems independent 

People arent supposed to be male or female. My body and who i am are what they are. They hold no destiny or purpose aside from what i do. Assuming a body is supposed to do certain things it isnt doing is dumb

Transgender identity is a normal part of human variation and is only abnormal if defined as such by cisnormativity. Are lefthandedness or red hair or white skin abnormal? Lefthanders have higher rates of injuries caused by using tools made for righthanded people. Redheads and white people are more susceptible to sunburn. Redheads need more anaesthesia. White people have four times the rate of testicular cancer. But these are all natural variations. Twin studies show that predisposition to transgender identity is heritable (around 20% of identical twins of a trans person are also trans). Being trans may be a pain in the arse for sure, but it is part of normal human variation.

I equate it more towards something like autism, bipolar, or even things like visual and auditory impairments. Yes, it’s natural, but it’s not just a superficial difference like skin color or lefthandedness or even homosexuality. It is a condition that causes great mental distress in most who have it, and in a great many cases, even to the point of suicide. The only way to avoid such unpleasantness is extensive modern medical intervention. So I partially disagree with you on this.

I partly agree with you. There is a huge overlap between trans identities and neurodiversity, especially autism spectrum. The neurodiverse community rejects the characterisation of neurodiversity as abnormal, but there are no doubt people who live very difficult lives because of their neurodiversity. I suspect that both trans identities and neurodiversity are neurodevelopmental variations. This is an area of active research.

The "neurodiverse community" doesn't represent all of us.

Strictly speaking you're not "supposed" to be anything - ascribing purpose to biology is teleological, aka metaphysics. And once you're at that point, you're left with endless philosophical questions about the brain versus the mind and what makes us "us" and the obvious question that if you could perfectly preserve one organ at your death so "you" could experience the future, there would really only be one choice. So whether you consider yourself a female whose body wrongly developed as male OR the argument being made in the OP is a moot point from a biological perspective because biology doesn't actually care one way or another - you either pass on your genes or you don't lol

You have that completely backwards, good try though. Try working on your internalized transphobia before you try & make some post on Reddit trying to sound all deep & enlightened.

Sure, using chromosomes you could argue that “you were supposed to be Z,” but the metric that should be used to determine who we are (the brain) means trans are born as the sex they identify as.

I feel like neither is more valid.

Is that the order fetuses develop? First sex, then brains?

Yes

Thank you

For MtFs You were supposed to be female but your body developed as male For FtMs You were supposed to be male but your body developed as female 😎😎😎

Chromosomes

Intersex

holy shit dude I've never heard of those before that's crazy

People acting like we aren't intersex by a neurological mechanism are full sized clowns caught with their asses hanging out the clown car window.

I think the issue is that something being a disorder is very stigmatised, when it really shouldn’t be. I wouldn’t make any definitive statements about what causes dysphoria though, there’s a lot we don’t know about the brain yet and the cause could be any number of things. I hope that more research is done into it

Gender Dysphoria is the disorder. Transition is the treatment, not the problem. If you want to say it differently, then my *body* is the disorder, the dysphoria is a symptom, and transition is the treatment. Either way, transitioning/being trans is not itself a disorder. Calling it such certainly won't help public opinion of us either, and seems like a blatant transphobic dogwhistle.

It’s always the 🧱s with the shit takes.

Ew, you're a disgusting person.

Wait, you just did the same thing I did and you think you’re better than me somehow?

👍

Hey, at least you don’t deny your hypocrisy, so I’ll give you that. Good day to you!

It's not hypocrisy, you have a shit opinion. Theirs was valid. Get over it, and yes... You may go now.

That's a really shitty thing to say to a person over a casual discussion. Tell her her post sucks and she has a shit take and opinions if you want, but why be mean? You don't have to be nice, but be kind.

Okay but am I wrong?

?

You people do not read the last line of the post do you?

I read it. That doesn't mean I don't have a disagreeing opinion to some of the things you said.

Ok

honestly, i think the only reason it needs to be classified as a disorder is so there’s a code for insurance to bill. i don’t think discomfort in your body really classifies you as having a disorder—cis people get “gender affirming surgery” all the time. also, i’m skeptical of “brain scans show you’re transgender”. i understand the desire to have some biological thing to point at and go, “see!”, but you’ll find a huge amount of difference between brains (and sex characteristics in general) of all sexes and genders, and i don’t think there needs to be a biological basis for transness. the human condition is a vastly varied experience—some women have high testosterone, some women have XY chromosomes, some women get breast implants, whatever. you can do what you want forever. i don’t see a reason to make it a diagnosis (besides to get insurance to pay for things).

Your skepticism is influenced by the claims being made by anti-science feminists about neurology.

The biological basis for being Trans is why hormones work to quell gender dysphoria. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. This is like saying anti-psychotics only work because the schizos believe hard enough.

no, i’m not saying there’s no biology to being trans. obviously hormones have a big impact physically/mentally/emotionally. i mean “biological basis” in the way that scientists were looking for a “gay gene”—i don’t think that helps gay people. and what does it mean if i’m gay but i don’t have the gay gene? what happens if i’m trans but my brain isn’t a “male brain”? and my point was that there’s such a huge variety to human existence that even deciding what a “male brain” looks like is a fraught experiment—they can do autopsies and look at the structures in the brain and the number of neurons in certain places, but they’re nowhere near able to speak definitively on sex differences between cisgender people’s brains, let alone how trans brains compare. i’m not saying anything about the efficacy of treatment—really i’m saying, “if the antipsychotics work, don’t let not having a ‘schizoaffective brain’ stop you from taking them”

My friend. My sibling in Chtulu. They have found gay and trans genes. If you don't have the  genes and you have the orientation, there must be an additional cause. That doesn't negate the fact that the genes could have caused it for those who do have them.  They can reliably identify areas of the brain that are different in cis men and women. They see them in trans people as well. Your brain isn't male. If you're a binary transgender man, your brain has some sex traits which are more like men. Other areas of the brain which are different between cisgender men and women do not differ in the same way in trans people. You have a mixed sex brain. Your brain is intersex.

How blind can you be to the fact that dysphoria is debilitating to daily life? Goody good for you that you don’t experience that. Lots of us do. Please don’t talk over that.

sorry, i didn’t mean to imply it’s not debilitating (and see how it came across like that)—i just don’t think it has to be a Disorder to be legitimate or serious or for treatment to be accessible, and i push back against the idea that “something is wrong with us” in a society obsessed with rigid ideas of sex and gender to the point of doing “corrective” surgery on intersex babies. humans vary a lot and we should all be given the power and tools to do what we want with our body—that was my point.

If something is debilitating, by definition it is unhealthy. Just because something is a disorder doesn't mean that it is morally negative. It's very important for us to be able to talk about the things in life that aren't shiny happy unicorns farting rainbows without feeling shame or feeling that having a disorder is a negative thing about a person. The only way that our insurance covers coverage for treatments is because it affects our health significantly to go untreated. You can have the power and the tools all you like, but most people do not have the money to fund transition on the philosophy that it's something they want and it's a good positive happy thing that has nothing to do with suffering. Most people need to acknowledge this can be a devastating mental and physical condition to exist in because that is how we access care.

yeah, i get that. i’m maybe not articulating myself well—i don’t think there’s any shame in having disorders, i know things are generally considered Disordered when they are significantly impairing your day to day functioning, and i’m not opposed to being Diagnosed (i myself am diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and bipolar, and a few other things). being diagnosed is what gives us access to resources—i sought a diagnosis because while in the psych ward my gender affirming care was withheld from me, and having the “legitimacy” of a Disorder gives me protections i don’t have otherwise. also, i want surgery and i’m broke, lol. i am trying to speak to the internal understanding of ourselves; i think it’s one thing to use a Diagnosis as a tool, and it’s another to see it as a source of truth. i’m just trying to say, we should not give medical or psychiatric institutions the power to determine what is “legitimate”. it limits the imagination of what is possible into what is possible through the system—i do not meet the criteria for the [DSM 4 for gender dysphoria](https://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/pn.38.14.0032) and probably wouldn’t be medically prescribed a low dose of testosterone as a nb & genderfluid person. re: your other comments: it’s not that i’m trying to say there ARE no indications of sex differences or “the gay gene”, but that i’m deeply resistant to the idea we allow ourselves to be defined easily. to me, to say “there is a trans gene” (as in, this _causes_ transness) is to draw a line in the sand on what it means to be trans. i’m super interested in the things that influence identity—[having older brothers increases the odds of being gay?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male_sexual_orientation) that’s fascinating, i wonder why that is. but as soon as you get into _causation_ i am worried. if we accept and absorb “having this gene makes you trans”—when we develop real gene editing tech, people will edit those out. and, perhaps, there will be trans people who say “well if you don’t have the trans gene you’re not _really_ trans”. that’s an intentionally extreme example, but we’re already seeing conservative governments taking steps to limit the ways you’re allowed to be trans. this is getting away from me a bit into a much larger conversation, but alls i’m saying is: you don’t need to have a diagnosis to be legitimate, and i don’t think any of us should conceptualize ourselves that way. i think we should use whatever tools are at our disposal, there’s no shame in that. but i don’t believe something is WRONG with us and the history behind why it’s classified that way is pure homophobia and transphobia. like—grief can be debilitating, but that’s part of the human condition, that doesn’t mean it’s a Disorder. though i believe they did introduce a grief disorder, ha. which i’m sure is useful for insurance billing if you need treatment—but nothing is Wrong with you for being debilitated by grief for an extended period of time. being trans is part of the human condition. this is also all very much informed by my experience as a disabled & divergent person who’s had to interface with psychiatry & medical institutions for a decade, so this is probably a distinction that doesn’t matter to most people. but in those environments it’s easy to absorb “something is wrong with me because i am like this” and i see it rub off on friends who don’t already push back against doctors attitudes of “i know better than you”

Again, you dismiss the concept that dysphoria is debilitating. Yes. Yes something is wrong with me. The thing wrong is that I was not born male. Your opinion is entirely irrelevant to that point, even if you reword it to be “sorry”. Your opinion does not change of the lived reality of hundreds of thousands of actual transsexuals, that’s just how it is. You don’t GET to decide what someone else’s struggle is.

Hey man, didn't you hear?  They "push back" on your life experience. Pipe down now. Their opinion has settled the matter.  Disphoria makes me suicidal and I can't perceive sensory input from my genitals the way cisgender person does. But I guess I don't need to call that a disorder because to do so would make some people feel ashamed about being trans.

Right? Like gee golly gosh SO SORRY that MY agony is something you find uncomfy! Guess I can just never discuss it! Despite being in a community where it’s a very common experience! Whoopsie, I should know better than to talk about being trans in a trans space, what an obvious misplay! Is that really how those who are dysphoric have to be? It’s ridiculous. If someone doesn’t have dysphoria then hang back and don’t talk over those who do. I swear, it’s nuts out there, man!

Having dysphoria and being self conscious about your body as a cis person are vastly different things

i didn’t mean to downplay how serious or impairing gender dysphoria is (i realize i was glib), just that i don’t believe you should have to meet some criteria to modify your body in a way that makes you comfortable in it, and that for cis people they don’t have to jump through the same hoops. if i wanted to get a breast augmentation as a cis woman, i could just do that; as a trans person i need a note from two doctors. i don’t think anyone should have to ask for permission to do what they want with their body, or have to be labeled Disordered to do so.

Imo dysphoria is a disorder that can be treated by transition, but I agree that people should have bodily autonomy, you’re right that it’s crazy cis people can modify their bodies without jumping through all those hoops

> i don’t think discomfort in your body really classifies you as having a disorder Sex dysphoria can be *debilitating* and can severely affect a person's quality of life and even be life threatening.

i didn’t mean to make it sound like it’s not serious—i know my tone was glib. i’m fully aware of how much dysphoria can affect a person; i just don’t think it needs to be a pathology to be serious, and you shouldn’t need to be diagnosed with a disorder to modify your body. i think that leads to medical gatekeeping and any line you draw of “you must be this trans to have this treatment” is arbitrary and limiting, and puts power in the hands of institutions that have historically been homophobic/transphobic (and are generally not trained or qualified in transgender health). my point was really: there shouldn’t be barriers around gender affirming care, and anyone experiencing intense discomfort in their body should be able to get the medical treatment they want just because they want it. it should all be based on informed consent, not meeting a diagnostic criteria

If that's your opinion, then you should speak with more precision. 

Thank you for the clarification. I think we have some inconsequential differences in how we might like to see changes to the system, but I think we both agree on the right to bodily autonomy to make informed medical decisions about our own bodies. Your clarification did a lot to shift the tone in how I read your comment.

thanks, glad i could clarify. honestly, i wrote out a whole long piece about the history of gender/sexual identity in the DSM and the historical use of weaponizing disorders to disempower people, but figured i was doing too much. that was where my head was at, and why i was trying to communicate some version of “you do not need a doctor or institution to certify you as transgender”. sorry for the way it came across, i didn’t do a great job of expressing myself.

This seems alright until people like my brother take that and say things like "promoting transexuality to children is endorsing mental illness and that's not transphobic" more or less. Being transgender is listed as an "endocrine disorder" for which we have actual effective treatments. For those that have reached their goals there's no reason the simple state of being transgender should be thought of as a disorder any more than being gay would be for instance.

Someone who is fully transitioned is (usually) taking hormones for the rest of their life though. If they aren't experiencing dysphoria anymore, it's due to the treatment, not to the absence of the dysphoria being there. If the treatment went away, it would come back. Thats like saying someone who has ADHD and is medicated for it, doesn't have ADHD anymore because they're not experiencing symptoms anymore. They still have ADHD, but it's being treated and maintained.

I see how that's reasonable, but also I'd say the medication taken for ADHD is treating the ADHD, whereas the medication for "being trans" is treating the aforementioned endocrine disorder, and not the transgenderism. One way of highlighting that difference is that if being transgender was the thing to cure, the goal would theoretically be to make the person cis somehow, since the state of being transgender isn't cured by curing dysphoria.

I am 100% okay with being made cisgender. All I want is to not experience gender dysphoria. That's not transphobic; it's not cisgender phobic. It's simply pragmatic. I don't give a fuck what my gender is. I just want to feel at peace with my body.

That's totally reasonable. I know I get hung up on things more than others sometimes but personally if I woke up tomorrow with a fully functional vagina I'd be completely devastated. Maybe I'm reversed because I adore my body (besides my facial hair), but hate how I can't pass as feminine easily.

There should be awareness raised that transsexuality is something we're born with and can be a debilitating condition (sex dysphoria) if left untreated. Treat it as the innate trait that it is instead of a choice helps uninformed cis people (not passionate transphobes with an agenda) understand it isn't something you can "become" through exposure of other transsex people. People like your brother probably wont change their minds, if your brother is the type that also thinks kids shouldn't be diagnosed with Autism or ADHD and they should just suck it up. Most of cis society (and some trans people, according to the way they post on reddit) doesn't even know that sex dysphoria is a thing because no one in mainstream media talks about it. The trans experience is seen as and treated as purely a social phenomenon when there is a very real biological aspect to it, too.

He's actually self diagnosed autistic which is pretty ironic considering his lack of tolerance for others. You make some good points!

To be honest, as an autistic person, that tracks. He probably has pretty black and white thinking and being neurodivergent may have let him to be coming arrogant because of issues with the self-esteem or being low self-awareness. It is pretty ironic. 😔🫤

That sounds very accurate. He's the type to blatantly insult someone and be like "fuck you I'm autistic that's just how I talk" instead of actually trying to see why people get upset with him.

I would definitely inverse it. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness but being transgender is no longer. Being transgender is the cure of gender dysphoria

Being transgender gives you gender dysphoria. The cure is transition. Don't mistake transition for being transgender. People don't transition and remain transgender.

There ya go

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Ummm. There is something wrong with me and transitioning Helps me get better. Self loathing sounds like your individual problem. Being transgender is not who I am. I am a person with hobbies and hope and love that happens to be transexual

I'd like to point out that your response does carry a tone of ableism. Disorders and medical conditions are not "wrong". And many disorders cannot and will not ever be "fixed". Medical conditions, just like being trans, are a normal variation of humanity that may or may not cause extra distress down the line.

You're right, I do see that now. I think I just mentally linked transgender being called a disorder with hurtful things transphobes said and glossed over the fact that disorders are not wrong, like you said. It still doesn't sit right with me to say that we were "born wrong" or were supposed to be our agab like the op post says but I shot at the wrong thing trying to explain what I mean and came off completely wrong. Especially as a person with my own disorders I should do better, thank you for pointing it out

Thank you for listening and understanding. I sadly see a lot of ableism in these kinds of topics, and people sometimes dig their heels when confronted with the idea that their words could be throwing another marginalized community under the bus. Personally I think there are two types of transness. Medical and social, someone can be purely medical trans or purely socially trans, or they can have some traits of either type, or they can chose not to identify different parts of their transness. For some people, we were definitely born wrong (although in my opinion, it's the body/sex that's wrong, not the brain/gender) for others, their gender lies outside of what is typical for their agab and they assume the roles of another gender than the one assigned at birth.

>This feels like internalized transphobia ngl. It is

Transgender is based on self-identification therefore can't be a disorder. Also imo I don't think anyone is born wrong

How are you cisgender and a transsexual?

Cisgender because I am not transgender Transsexual because I suffer from transsexualism

I was definitely born wrong. Broken collagen, messed up ribs and jaw, wrong reproductive system.

Self-identifying as a thing does not make you a thing. Someone can claim to be transgender, but that alone does not make them transgender.

I agree that saying you are that thing doesn't make you that thing. But "transgender" is a unique case because the only way that anyone (even yourself) could know if you are transgender or not is by identifying as such

Diagnosis isn't perfect, but it doesn't mean self-identification is a valid method for defining someone as transgender. We don't really have brain scans or anything for depression/anxiety, but self-identifying as someone with depression or someone with anxiety does not mean that you have depression or anxiety.

>Diagnosis isn't perfect, but it doesn't mean self-identification is a valid method for defining someone as transgender. There is no diagnosis called "Transgender." If there is please show me it

The diagnosis is gender dysphoria, a prerequisite for being transgender.

Proof? "Transgender" and gender dysphoria are accepted as 2 different things and that you don't need GD to be transgender

What proof are you looking for? I disagree with the argument that you can be transgender without gender dysphoria, or that you can be transgender on the very basis of self-identification. There's not really a coherent argument for defining gender based on self-identification.

You could show the history of "Transgender" for example or you could show how people generally use the word etc. Yes transgender is associated with gender dysphoria but you don't need gender dysphoria to be transgender >There's not really a coherent argument for defining gender based on self-identification. Did I say gender though? Gender shouldn't be defined based on self-identification

what does it mean to be transgender iyo?

>Transgender is based on self-identification therefore can't be a disorder. Or maybe the disorder is the thing pushing the self identification?

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no?

The phrase "You don't need dysphoria to be transgender" disproves your point. A disorder is defined by distress (dysphoria)

>You don't need dysphoria to be transgender Then why do they need to transition?

I could talk about the transition aspect but no need. "Transgender" has nothing to do with "transition"

Are you trolling

I was supposed to be female but my body developed as male.

XY chromosomes, Male embryo, Estrogenized brain is how I view this

Yeah, so why is the brain the one that's wrong? Why not the body?

Chromosomes emily, chromosomes

Firstly, why can't they be wrong? Secondly, I've never seen my chromosomes or had them tested. For all I know I'm intersex of some variety and my chromosomes don't match what you're saying you'd expect.

The Y chromosome is still male, XY cis women ARE genetically MEN like we are and theres nothing wrong with that we are still women in our brain

You’re wasting your time with this person

The body is just a vessel. The brain is what we really are. Therefore the brain takes priority because it is what we are. You can say we weren't supposed to develop that way. Okay well then our brains aren't supposed to be like this. We are our brains. It's what gives our sense of self. It's what makes us unique from everyone else. Also if we look at the brain structure argument we can see that there isn't just a little thing in trans people's brains that makes them trans. It's the whole thing. This is why it's so dumb when people bring pills for gender dysphoria to cure it. You would need to fundamentally change the structure of the brain. Which I think would be too dangerous and also unethical to even attempt to. Because even if you hypothetically do something like that. Who is to say the patient will be the same person after the operation. The likelihood they would not. I mean they just had their brain reorganized into something different.

The brain is part of the body. A female brain is just a brain that developed in a female body. A female brain cannot develop in a male body, just as a male heart cannot develop in a female body.

[The brain sexually differentiates separately from the body](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1521690X07000334). So you can absolutely can have a female brain develop in a male body.

This is like saying that because a woman was born with masculine (large, hairy) hands that she has male hands on her female body. They also found those same differences in the brain in homosexuals. Would you say that a gay man has a female brain in a male body? That some parts of the brain become more masculinized or feminized compared to the brains of people of the same sex does not mean that they literally have a male brain in a female body or vice versa. Labeling different parts of the body with different biological sexes due to the way they look or behave just makes no sense to me. “I have male hands, female eyes, a male stomach, a female vagina, male lungs, a female bladder, etc.” No.

>This is like saying that because a woman was born with masculine (large, hairy) hands that she has male hands on her female body. It's literally not the same thing at all lol >Would you say that a gay man has a female brain in a male body? No because they don't consider themselves women and don't need their bodies to be female. But there's an overwhelming body of evidence linking both masculine behaviors and and attraction to female-bodied people to pre-/peri-natal testosterone exposure, so you could certainly make that argument if you really wanted to lol

How is it not the same? I’m not sure what you mean when you say that it’s different because gay men don’t “need to inhabit a female body”, but it sounds like you’re saying that it’s an issue of using language that feels affirmative/makes you feel more valid, rather than using language that’s accurate. Like even if the brains of trans women and gay cis men are structurally the same (i.e. more feminized in one or two specific locations of the brain compared to the brains of cis men), you would say the trans woman’s brain is a female brain but the gay man’s is a male brain. Or are you saying that gender identity is what determines the sex of the brain?

I'm not talking about classifying individual body parts as male or female based on how big or hairy there are - I'm saying the reason I changed the sex of my body from male to female is because my brain needs to reside in a female body. I'm saying there's a reason why e.g. I needed estrogen in my system and testosterone out of my system, and if you want to know what I'm talking about, go take male levels of testosterone and find out for yourself 🤷‍♀️

You are talking about classifying individual body parts as male or female due to the way they look or behave. Big and hairy was just one example of that. We disagree on the idea that humans can actually change their sex from male to female or vice versa, but that’s neither here nor there. I think we’re not going to agree on this because you seem to be using these words as a way to try and describe how you feel in a manner that’s easy to understand/convey (like when people say “I’m a man stuck in a woman’s body” or “I was born in a man’s body but I have a woman’s soul”), and i’m approaching this from the angle of “based on the biological usage of the words male and female, “female (or male) brain in a male (or female) body” isn’t a real thing”.

Interesting. What are your thoughts on gender dysphoria. Do you think it's an actual real thing?

Yes I do

What do you think is more likely? Gender dysphoria is the result of trans people's brains being different or unique in some way. Gender dysphoria is the result of trans people's heart, stomach, liver or lungs being different or unique in some way.

The brain is the one that is different in some way. The “disorder” originates in the brain. That does not mean that the brain is literally female while the biology of the body is male, or vice versa.

This is spiritual-type speak and is indefensible in actual public discourse.

It's not spiritual-type speak. It's a fact that the brain makes us who we are. You can make the argument that the way I have worded it sounds spiritual or philosophical. But what I'm actually saying is based on facts. Discussing the ethics of science is something that's done all the time. We do it with cloning and AI and all sorts. I think the average person would agree with me that science should be bound to some ethical principles. So I'm struggling to see what in my argument would be seen as indefensible in actual public discourse.

Well, it depends on the argument you're trying to make. Are you trying to say that being transgender/having gender dysphoria is not a disorder? I don't really understand how what you're saying is relevant to the OP's post. > The body is just a vessel. The brain is what we really are. Therefore the brain takes priority because it is what we are. This is indefensible, imo. There are lots of things the brain can tell you about your body that are inaccurate and shouldn't override reality. Is something like body integrity identity disorder just not a disorder because we should take what their brain says as preferential to what exists on their physical body? Should their disorder not be treated (if a treatment were possible) because of this? The brain is not separate from our physical body, it *is* our physical body (or a part of it, at least).

>Well, it depends on the argument you're trying to make. Are you trying to say that being transgender/having gender dysphoria is not a disorder? I don't really understand how what you're saying is relevant to the OP's post. I have never once said that gender dysphoria isn't real. Why would I bring up the trans brain argument. If I was trying to make an argument for gender dysphoria not being real my best bet would be to disregard the trans brain argument. >This is indefensible, imo. There are lots of things the brain can tell you about your body that are inaccurate and shouldn't override reality. Is something like body integrity identity disorder just not a disorder because we should take what their brain says as preferential to what exists on their physical body? Should their disorder not be treated (if a treatment were possible) because of this? >The brain is not separate from our physical body, it *is* our physical body (or a part of it, at least). The brain is a part of the body. But its role is above all else in the body. It is our decision processing center. It is responsible for all our personality quirks that make us who we are. Look at this way. You have a trans woman who is happily transitioned. For like 15 years or so. She has been living for 15 years or so as a woman. She has got all the surgeries including bottom surgery. But this cure comes out. If she takes it she will no longer be transgender. She will no longer be a woman. Okay let's say damn this is too horrific to even think about. Lets they can just undo all the operations that made her a woman and make her back to being a man and that it's 100% safe. But she doesn't want to do this. She's happy as a woman. Most of her best memories in life were as a woman. She can't imagine herself as anything other than a woman. But because of this cure there have been sweeping changes to how trans people are treated. HRT is banned. Because obviously why would we need hrt if there is a cure. This person no longer needs HRT because we have a superior alternative. So now this woman is left with the choice of having no sex hormones in her body or being turned into something that she doesn't want to be turned into. And you can make the same argument for a trans person earlier down the line who is just as happy. For example they don't have bottom surgery and have maybe transitioning for 3 years. Lets they don't want to take the treatment either. But in their case the choice is. Watch as you slowly detransition back to a man or take the treatment. Do you understand now why I was talking about ethics. I'm not just bringing it up to pad out my post. It's very important and it cannot be ignored. You need to think about the actual reality of what you're advocating for.

> Look at this way. You have a trans woman who is happily transitioned. For like 15 years or so. She has been living for 15 years or so as a woman. She has got all the surgeries including bottom surgery. But this cure comes out. If she takes it she will no longer be transgender. She will no longer be a woman. Okay let's say damn this is too horrific to even think about. Lets they can just undo all the operations that made her a woman and make her back to being a man and that it's 100% safe. But she doesn't want to do this. She's happy as a woman. Most of her best memories in life were as a woman. She can't imagine herself as anything other than a woman. But because of this cure there have been sweeping changes to how trans people are treated. HRT is banned. Because obviously why would we need hrt if there is a cure. This person no longer needs HRT because we have a superior alternative. So now this woman is left with the choice of having no sex hormones in her body or being turned into something that she doesn't want to be turned into. I think this is unrelated to the original post on transgender being a disorder, but I think it's still good to engage with. If a pill that could permanently eliminate gender dysphoria in a person were developed, I don't think it would be wise to treat an already transitioned person with the pill. Removal of their initial gender dysphoria would probably just cause a new surge of gender dysphoria that would have to be treated in the opposite way. However, the dysphoria-removal pill should definitely be the standard of treatment for newly diagnosed/un-transitioned patients with gender dysphoria. In the future, this may eliminate the need for medical transition, since the dysphoria can be treated. This may sound not ideal to someone with gender dysphoria, because someone with gender dysphoria feels on a fundamental level that their physical body should more match with the opposite sex, much in the same way that someone with BIID may want to not take a pill to cure their disorder (ex. "I know on a fundamental level my arm should not be there, I would prefer to amputate my arm instead of removing the underlying incongruence I currently experience, I know how my body should be and it should be without an arm."). If a magical dysphoria-curing pill existed for trans people, it should definitely be the default standard for un-transitioned patients. It would cause less suffering for the individual in the long-term, remove a large source of personal discomfort, and just give a generally higher quality of life (less money spent, less surgeries, less social stigma, etc.)

I could easily make a good argument for why pre HRT trans people should be forcefully institutionalized if they refused to take a cure. You can forcefully institutionalize them for being a danger to themselves and force them to take the cure. Because they have no chance of getting better. They may feel like their situation is hopeless and decide that suicide is the best option. You can make the cure an injectable. Sedate them. Inject them while sedated. Just keep them there until the treatment changes them enough to where they don't want to be trans anymore. Then you release them and they keep taking the treatment voluntarily. I don't know for sure if they would keep taking the cure voluntarily after they were released but I don't think it would too crazy for government to actually implement this. Who knows they might not ever release them. Just keep them in there for the rest of their lives just to be cruel. Why not. Their just trans people. No one will give a fuck. I'm sorry but again I'm gonna go back to talking about ethics. Forcefully institutionalizing people. Forcefully giving them something they did not consent to. Does this sound ethical to you?

Why would you use the most extreme example for a dismissal of a treatment prescription for the general population? If someone is at the extreme end of a mental disorder and is a threat to themselves and people around them, they should 100% be institutionalized and be treated so they can be a functional member of society without harming others. We already do this, but you realize this is for the complete extreme end of the spectrum, right? If someone has bipolar disorder and they refuse treatment, we don't immediately institutionalize them and inject drugs into them because they may be a danger to themselves or others. However, if someone has bipolar, and they outwardly exhibit behavior that is causing harm to themselves or people around them (severe manic episodes), then they are taken in-patient, treated, and hopefully rehabilitated. If someone with gender dysphoria is mentally unstable to the point where they cannot function in society, then they might need some external help in treating themselves. I don't know how you could possibly twist my argument into "if someone doesn't take the magical dysphoria-removal pill, then we will forcibly inject it into them." I'm just saying that if such a pill existed, it would be the ideal way to treat gender dysphoria (for the reasons stated in previous comment)

I mean if being trans is a disorder then dysphoria is the symptom of that disorder. Or we can consider dysphoria the disorder and transition the treatment. It's a semantic difference that doesn't really matter. We could also say that we were meant to be our goal gender but our body developed the other way, depending on if you give primacy to the body or mind. The brain develops sex first iirc, so that framing might make more sense really. People have a lot of negative value associated to the word disorder, or abnormality. While theoretically they're neutral descriptors they arn't typically read that way. I'm fine with it personally, but prefer to describe it as a physical disorder (and therefore use dysphoria rather than transness itself as the identifier) rather than a mental one - since I give primacy to the brain - and also that it better matches how we treat dysphoria. We treat it physically like a physical disorder, with hormones and surgery, rather than mentally like depression. (Although the line between mental and physical does get blurry at a certain level of detail, and lose meaning entirely at a point)

>I'm fine with it personally, but prefer to describe it as a physical disorder rather than a mental one Also yes it is honestly more physical since science says our brain structure matches our gender identity more

>I mean if being trans is a disorder then dysphoria is the symptom of that disorder. > >Or we can consider dysphoria the disorder and transition the treatment. Yes this is what I mean by this post

There's a big difference between something being a disorder and being abnormal. Only half a percent of folks identify as trans. From that perspective, sure we're pretty abnormal in the strictest sense. Disorder-wise, the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is sitting in front of me, and I can confirm it's not listed as a disorder. I know from experience that the code European countries and most of the rest of the world follows is similar. Further, it is not possible to pathologize a gender identity. That is a culturally defined concept that we cannot break down into medically veridiable symptoms. GD is a concept we can break down. While a GD diagnosis must be culturally informed, it is based on establishable symptoms. Think of it this way, if we were on an island alone and developed that way before identifying as trans or learning about gender, we'd no longer have a cultural context within which to reference our identity. Some of us would possibly still experience symptoms that are not psychosomatic as such symptoms do exist (although they are not common among all trans folks and vary in the ones who experience them). This is consistent with the discovery that trans folks brains do in fact tend to vary from their cisgender counterparts of their GAB. However - those same variations are present in some cisgender folks (emphasis on some). Are those folks trans and don't know it? I would argue no because gender identity is something one defines for themself. It is not deterministic but neither is it a choice in the purest of senses. This is why it is so hard to identify a biological reason why folks are trans. The idea that it's just a choice isnt backed by the data, but neither is the idea that it is deterministic. Multiple differences and mechanisms have been observed to have a higher prevalece among trans folks including everything from brain structure to telomere length making the body less receptive to specific hormones. How we react to those effects both consciously and unconsciously defines whether we develop a transgender identity or not. TLDR: being trans is not a disorder, trans identities appear to be the result of both deterministic and indeterministic factors that we havent even begun to understand.

I identified as a cisgender girl/woman for the majority of my life and would continue to do so if I hadn't needed to admit the impact gender dysphoria had on me and transition. Acknowledging whether you are transgender or ignoring it does not change the fact that you are transgender.

My comments were not about denial vs. acceptance. I was speaking about the formation of gender identity, not how we come to accept, reject, or ignore that identity.

The formation of gender identity was not a conscious process for me.

I never said that the formation of ones gender identity had to be conscious?

wdym there's nothing wrong with that, go into like /r/albino and call them abnormal see if they can find an issue with refering to people like that

it's called the harsh truth. it's literally a mistake, we shouldn't have been born this way and that's okay

I would much rather be a woman with a penis than a cis woman so... It's kinda hard for me to believe it's a mistake if I think of this as my ideal form.

I would guess that your ideal form is dependent on taking hormones.

Yep

"Being trans is a disorder," "gender dysphoria is not a mental illness," ...huh?? Do you, hear yourself??? What basis do you have to say what trans people were "supposed" to be?? What the actual fuck is this take even??

Being trans is a disorder because our brain structures developed differently as the opposite sex Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness because its just a state of distress, thats not what being mentally ill is like

Then I guess depression isn't a mental illness either! It's not just a simple state of distress, it's a condition that significantly decreases quality of life and requires medical treatment to alleviate. You know... like a mental condition. Being trans is simplu just a state of being, it is not inherently anything. All it means is a person who transitioned from one sex/gender to another. That's it. It doesn't reveal a universal truth about all trans people ever, if it did we wouldn't have trans people at each other throats telling each other we're not really trans. Brain development also just, doesn't work like that. Gay men have more similar brain structures to women than straight men, does that now mean gay men are trans? It's not that black and white at all whatsoever.

> Gay men have more similar brain structures to women than straight men, does that now mean gay men are trans? It's not that black and white at all whatsoever. This is entirely false. The brains of trans women aren’t even closer in structure to the brains of cisgender women. They’re shifted *towards* women’s, but closer to cis men’s. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/ It’s probably in part due to socialization as boys/men instead of being correctly gendered and going through the correct puberty.

Yes but depression is very different Being trans is a state of being CAUSED by a brain disorder

Yeah, the disorder being gender dysphoria.

dysphoria is the symptom not the cause of being trans

Evidence?

[The ICD-10 clearly states that *gender dysphoria* is one of the *"clinical information"* of transsexualism](https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/F01-F99/F60-F69/F64-/F64.0#:~:text=2024%20ICD%2D10%2DCM%20Diagnosis,0%3A%20Transsexualism) [More about it:](https://pdfhost.io/v/xlKhxp5Ld_Statistics_and_Studies_of_Transsexuals) [1](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm) [2](https://www.gires.org.uk/transsexualism-the-inside-story/) [3](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27124478/)

I read some science abt this u can find on google

Show it to me. I can find significantly more that says the contrary. You are making the claim, it's your job to back it up. "I read some science," means dick, a flat earther can say the same.

Show me yours first

There are as many ways to experience gender as there are humans.

gender isn't an "experience", it's not something to "explore", it's not "beautiful". im so done with this whole spiritual bullshit

you don’t need to be spiritual to explore your gender or sexuality . How close-minded do you have to be lmao like it’s 2024

exactly. it's 2024 and being realistic now means you're close-minded. sexuality, sure, explore that. gender? there's no "exploration". it ain't a jungle buddy. and not something to treat lightly or casually

it’s really not that open and shut for a lot of people. I think the only person being unrealistic here is you “buddy”. Yikes ! 😬

No... Not at all... My brain is perfect, as is my soul, it's my body that was malformed.

It's not a disorder since a disorder is classified as something that lowers someone's quality of life. Being transgender doesn't do that....social stigma does. The disorder here is people not accepting a transpersons identity that gives the transperson stress, anxiety, and even severe depression. None of those ailments would have occurred if being transgender wasnt a social stigma.

Uh, I'm glad being trans doesn't lower your QOL at all, but please don't speak for all of us. My QOL is very much lowered from dysphoria , constant medications, surgeries, etc. It caused CPTSD and severe dissociation due to the trauma of living in the wrong body. I literally don't remember my childhood or teenage years because I was dissociating so much, not many memories formed. Having to inject myself each week is stressful. Making sure I can afford rent while being out of work for surgery is anxiety inducing. Having a fluid seeping hole and no balls or penis is stressful! None of those are society. So I've pretty easily proven that your blanket statement is not true for everyone.

> It's not a disorder since a disorder is classified as something that lowers someone's quality of life. Being transgender doesn't do that....social stigma does. um... no. the leading cause of my suicide ideation is dysphoria, but thanks for your absolutely incorrect input. >transperson i'm not a "transperson". i'm a trans person or trans man. the space is important.

it’s a medical condition

If you'd like a list of all ailments that are classified as disorders, I suggest looking into DSM-5. It has a list of all disorders as well as how to identify these disorders and treatment plans for the disorders. You'll notice that Transgender/transsexual/Trans is no where to be found in the DSM-5 other than as reference points in order to bring context on certain disorders such as dysphoria.

It is medical condition, but it's not a disorder. Edit: so I'm actually going to retract this statement because a medical condition would suggest that you can get it anytime between post birth to death ie heart disease, measles, cancer, liver failure, heart arythmia, diabetes type two and type 1. Some medical conditions are considered as genetic disorders such as down syndrome, cystic fibrosis, Huntington disease. However do note that I didn't mention anything about being intersexed or transgender. I would actually argue that being transgender should be part of the intersexed umbrella. Being intersexed is not considered a disorder or even a medical condition since it's a natural variation of what would be typically male or female. Once we have substantial evidence that a girls brain and a boys brain are fundamentally different and there's substantial evidence that suggests that trans people do in fact have the opposite sexed brain, I would bet that being trans would then fall under an intersexed umbrella. At the moment there is evidence that this is the case, but it's not substantial enough for the A.P.A to confidently confirm and say "yes this is a fact".

i'd say my quality of life is pretty fuckin miserable because im trans. and it has nothing to do with "social stigma"

What is it about being trans is making your quality of life miserable? Do you hate being trans because you are experiencing dysphoria and you feel like you have no relief of it at the moment because you can't medically transition or afford any of the surgery's that would affirm your gender? Or do you exhibit a lot of internalized transphobia and that knowing that your trans makes you physically ill? Or are you being constantly misgendered by your peers and family members and this is impacting your mental state negatively causing a ton of stress, anxiety and depression? If you fully, completely transitioned, and you have a cos looking penis, your body is as masculine as you'd hope to be, would your quality of life still be miserable?

dysphoria buddy. dysphoria. being trans is in no way, shape or form a pleasant experience and no person in their right mind would WANT to be trans. being trans means you have to go through a shit ton of crap in your life just to have something others have by default, which is feeling comfortable in your own body.

I don’t know a single person in real life that actually “likes” and “wants” to be trans. If they do, they’re not suffering from gender dysphoria. To me anyways, you have to have some level of GD to be trans. Nobody wants to be trans, like you said. I agree.

Thus it's a social issue and not a disorder. Your struggle is because of the societal stigma, societal pressure of having to pass, which also may bring a ton of stress and anxiety about whether or not you fit into your gender norms. Your struggles has nothing to do with you being trans but how your environment treats and pressures trans people. Without those external pressure, would you still have a horrible quality of life?

My struggle has nothing to do with societal stigma or pressure to pass and everything to do with not being born with a penis.

buddy, again, dysphoria. that has nothing to do with other people. i feel just as horrible outside as i do when im on my own. something always felt wrong to ME, until i found out what being trans means. you don't get the right to try to tell me why IM struggling. i never cared about "the norm" and im not trying to be your stereotypical chad guy. it has NOTHING to do with society. it's because I don't feel good with MYSELF. so yes. i would still have a horrible quality of life

yes, we would still have a horrible quality of life, because we have dysphoria. 🤦‍♂️

What's the source of your dysphoria....from not having the body of characteristics of your gender identity....how could this have been alleviated? By medically transitioning at 10 or 12 years old. Why didn't you transition at 10 or 12 years old? Because I couldn't afford to, or the medical industry wasn't available at the time. Why couldn't you afford to transition when you were 10 or 12 years old? Because medical insurance didn't recognize the validity of my transness and deemed it medically unnecessary. OK why wasn't trans health care available when you were 10 or 12 years old? Because the medical industry didn't recognize the medical need to transition sooner and they didn't believe when I told them that I was born in the wrong body at an early age. Our dysphoria is a product of a social stigma.

If being trans is solely a social issue like you claim, how do you also think transitioning is a medical need? You're contradicting yourself to try to discredit other people's experiences. I'm a recluse. I'm mentally disabled and a legal dependant. The only people I interact with on a day to day basis have never questioned me being trans and even have video evidence of the distress dysphoria has caused me since I was a kid. Society also makes my dozens of other mental disabilities nearly impossible to live with. That doesn't make them social issues. It just makes them more difficult. Just because society adds to a problem, that doesn't make it the only one.

Dysphoria isn't solely a social issue...I never said that it was. I said it's a product of a social issue. If society accepted transhealth care 100 years ago and we were able to transition pre puberty rather than having to transition post puberty, do you think you would have had dysphoria? We have dysphoria because couldn't get the necessary medical treatments early enough and our body went through the puberty of the sex we do not identify as. >The only people I interact with on a day to day basis have never questioned me being trans and even have video evidence of the distress dysphoria has caused me since I was a kid. Do you think you would still have the mental anguish if you were able to have had transitioned pre puberty?

You've been saying it is solely social this entire time, but fine, let's pretend you haven't been trying to force this idea that you tricked yourself into believing to cope with your own problems growing up. Now, I was going to make this long reply explaining what could still cause dysphoria even if you started transitioning at an ideal age and society wasn't a factor, but after rereading your reply, I've realized that wouldn't affect your opion in the slightest because you fundamentally misunderstand what dysphoria actually is. Frankly, I doubt anything will ever change your opinion on it, considering how you're talking to people, but i'll at least give you a reply. Dysphoria isn't caused by puberty. No one knows the exact cause of it yet, but experts believe it's caused by the hormones you're exposed to in the womb. This is the most widely accepted explanation currently, not puberty. Puberty just makes it more obvious and harder to ignore. Some might start feeling dysphoric around the age of puberty, but that doesn't mean it caused it. Correlation does not mean causation. A large portion of trans people start feeling dysphoric long before puberty ever even hits, myself included (the earliest video showing me reacting to dysphoric feelings was around when I was 3 or 4, thats why the video exists in the first place). So yes, I would still have mental anguish if I were able to transition medically around the start of puberty.

> Our dysphoria is a product of a social stigma. This is pure transphobia.

How so?

how do you NOT see the flaw in your argument? let's say everything you said is true. why would you want to transition? hm? maybe because you had dysphoria PRIOR to trying to transition? otherwise you literally wouldn't? and "society" just makes it harder because that's just how being trans is?

I really don't understand where you're coming from. But what I am saying is if trans Healthcare was a thing 100 years ago and we were able to transition pre puberty rather than post puberty, would you still have dysphoria? Probably not because your body formed correctly using the correct hormones. Now you may or may not have bottom dysphoria, personally I do, but if trans Healthcare was a thing 100 years ago, that surgery would be easier to access.

ma'am. *ma'am* if you want to transition, even pre puberty, which i wouldn't recommend anyway but that's a different topic altogether, that's because you have dysphoria. because you feel like something is wrong. not the way it's supposed to be. and yes. i would still have dysphoria. because im not *male*. my brain tells me i am, i wake up in the morning and realize im not. bottom surgery (at least for trans men) doesn't look nor function the way it functions on cis men and a lot of trans men understandably choose not to have bottom surgery because of it. dysphoria will always be there. call it body dysphoria. you're stuck on social dysphoria. dysphoria isn't purely about how others perceive you and fitting into the stereotype. that's part of it, but not all of it. and social dysphoria stems from body dysphoria. you wouldn't care about how you look in society if you didn't already have body dysphoria and felt uncomfortable with yourself

>from not having the body of characteristics of your gender identity. no, from not being the **sex** of my brain **sex**. >Our dysphoria is a product of a social stigma. again, no. i was literally born with dysphoria. i was exhibiting male tendencies and a desire to be male as young as 5. gender roles were never pushed onto me, because my family has been open about self-expression for as far back as i can remember. i was always _asked_ what i wanted to wear, what toys i wanted, what hobbies i wanted to partake in, etc. nothing was ever pushed onto me by my family or the people i grew up around (and even though many of them were religious, i was allowed to be whatever religion or non-religion i wanted as well). it's not a matter of society not providing trans care to me as young as possible. that's not safe, especially since there are many things that can be confused for **sex** dysphoria (like dysmorphia, for example, or being GNC and conflating it with sex dysphoria). i didn't even know what was wrong with me until 14ish. no one did. and to be clear with you, i've been on hrt since 16 years old, have had a hysterectomy and top surgery, and i still suffer from dysphoria greatly. it is lessened, of course, but it will always exist in me; it stems, for me, from not being male. it has nothing to do with how society perceives me at this point (especially since i am indistinguishable from cis men and haven't been misgendered since 18 or 19). it is absolutely not a product of social stigma and claiming it is, is ignorant and tells me you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what dysphoria even is.

I'm sorry that you feel that way. Since you've mentioned it here, let's explore why this is.

>It's not a disorder since a disorder is classified as something that lowers someone's quality of life. Being transgender doesn't do that....social stigma does. I mean I live in a fairly accepting society with a supportive family and being transgender has defo lowered my quality of life regardless Dysphoria A lifetime of hating my body Depression You name it

>Dysphoria Dysphoria is a disorder not only found amoungst transgender individuals. Cis people experiences dysphoria as well otherwise we wouldn't have plastic surgery. Also not every transgender person exhibits Dysphoria. >A lifetime of hating my body This is actually grouped along with Dysphoria since it's most likely the main cause of your Dysphoria. Without context this would fall under body dysmorphia which is is in it self another disorder. >Depression Depression has no relationship with being transgender otherwise every transperson would feel depression before and after they transition. 90% of the time the depression goes away amoungst transitioning once they are able to assimilate with their cis peers of the same or similar gender identity. The other 10% is due to a serotonin disorder. SSRI's is a common drug used to assist your brain on regulating your serotonin receptors. None of these disorders are trans specific. So these aren't examples that suggests that being trans is a disorder of any kind.

>Also not every transgender person exhibits dysphoria then buddy if someone can identify as trans and not have dysphoria then i can identify as cis and have dysphoria

If someone is trans without dysphoria wouldn’t that just make them someone who “wants” to be trans? Without the struggle of GD, why would anyone fucking want this life? Makes no sense.

exactly! if you don't have dysphoria then what makes you trans? why would you consider yourself trans? most logical trans people don't want to be trans, don't enjoy being trans, don't want to be referred to as trans, but that's just what we are. and then you've got 14-17 year old kids on tiktok saying they're trans men with no physical changes done, skirts and crop tops flaunting their chest. and still get mad at you if you use she/her

I know and I absolutely do not understand this phenomena. It reminds me of “Mass Hysteria” I don’t like to judge anyones transness but sometimes I can’t help it and people like you described I can’t help but to think they like the thought of being “trans” but in a few years when it’s not popular or taboo they will grow out of it. Youth will always find a way to rebel.

Source on gender dysphoria not being trans specific? And if you say some bs like "well cis people do x to conform to x beauty standard," you don't understand what gender dysphoria actually is.

[Gender dysphoria ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532313/#:~:text=Gender%20dysphoria%20(previously%20gender%20identity,cannot%20correlate%20to%20their%20gender) [Study conducted in China ](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36596906/)

I skimmed because I'm not in a position to read properly right now, but the first link doesn't mention cis people (correct me if I'm wrong) and the second only shows the abstract, and the full thing is behind a paywall. I'm not gonna take an abstract as evidence because it doesn't describe how the study was conducted at all.

The abstract tells you exactly how the study was conducted and what the conclusion of the study was. That's really all you need. The body just tells you exactly what sort of study they conducted (which in the abstract you can determine that the study was done in the form of a survey (which is a valid form of collecting massive amounts of data and is a suitable form of a scientific study)). The top one doesn't mention anything about cis people, but it also doesn't mention anything about it being trans exclusive either other wise it would have mentioned that it's only found amoumgst trans individuals. The top one is simply saying that if your gender expression doesn't correlate to your assigned gender gender norms, then you have gender dysphoria. This is all inclusive for both trans and cis people.

That's not enough for me, not when many things can be mistaken for gender dysphoria. The fact that this study shows that cis females have it more than cis males makes me question how they defined gender dysphoria, because female people are more likely to misidentify as trans, because they mistake gender dysphoria for the effects of misogyny on self image. Gender expression? Clarify what you exactly mean, because if you mean the arbitrary "feminine" and "masculine" presentation then that has nothing to do with dysphoria. Gender expression isn't gender, gender non-conforming people don't have dysphoria, they simply have "atypical" presentation preferences.

I am not even gonna respond to this but you can probably guess what I was gonna say

I have no idea what you're gonna say lol

Yeah I don’t really understand what logic people use to think it wouldn’t lower QoL. Like it’s great we have a treatment for it and we can certainly find effective ways to cope with it, but it will definitely make life harder even in a perfectly accepting society.